Wikipedia:No original research/Noticeboard/Archive 13

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A study conducted by the University of Washington found that Tea Party Movement supporters were statistically more likely to be racially resentful than the population as a whole.^[1] Critics of this study suggest that while it's possible that agreement with statements like "Blacks should do the same without special favors" reflects a resentful spirit, it also could reflect a respectful one--a confidence that blacks are as capable as anyone else.^[2]

The problem is that the study is not a national study. It was specifically limited to 7 states, however is being presented as a description of the movement as a whole. This study has also been strongly criticized for being very partisan and poorly worded (see second ref for example). To fully incorporate this study would require substantial qualifiers to fully explain the methodology of the study and the limitations which would very likely provide

You seem to have a flawed understanding of policy (on this AND in many other of your objections).

The SOURCE specifically has the words, "The data suggests that people who are Tea Party supporters have a higher probability...of being racially resentful" [late edit follows] as well as the source saying, "Surveyers asked respondents ... a series of questions that political scientists typically use to measure racial hostility. On each one, Tea Party backers expressed more resentment than the rest of the population".

The article edit says this, "A study conducted by the University of Washington found that Tea Party Movement supporters were statistically more likely to be racially resentful than the population as a whole.[72]"

Perhaps the edit could be worded differently, but to claim this text constitutes original research is quite an odd objection, IMO.

In any case, it's pretty clear to me that the actual problem here is that you believe the study's methodology ["7 states"] to be flawed, but your personal belief that the assertions in an

WP:OR. It would help progress on the article if there less confusion of those two things. BigK HeX (talk

) 02:11, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

(ec)"A higher probability" doesn't necessarily mean "more likely." And what's the actual population here? Are we talking about people who agree with the ideas of the tea party movement, or are we talking about actual tea party members? Because the tea party movement is about actual participation. Using the word "supporters" suggests that the researchers didn't 'study' actual tea party participants, but rather just asked a randomly selected group for their opinions. That's not a study. That's a poll.

Malke2010

02:25, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

""A higher probability" doesn't necessarily mean "more likely."

Sheesh. It's kind of sad that a talk page full of objections like this are distracting editors from more important work on Wikipedia. BigK HeX (talk) 02:32, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

• BigK HeX is right - there's no original research here. This could be brought up at
  WP:NPOV/N, but I think it should be included in the article, particularly since it is balanced by a rebuttal. II | (t - c
  ) 04:49, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
• Yes, indeed, BigK HeX is right and Malke's understanding of OR and of social science methodology is flawed. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 06:31, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
• Nomoskedasticity see
  Malke2010
  11:06, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
  • Why? Nomoskedasticity (talk) 11:34, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

....another poor application of WP guidelines. I see no civility breaches. BigK HeX (talk) 12:16, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

There is no consensus for including this study; I agree with Arzel. The study was local, but the Tea Party movement is national so their results are not statistically significant. Their methods are questionable: How did they decide which handful of states to include in the study?

Also their premise is questionable. What does "racially resentful" even mean? For example, if a white firefighter was denied a promotion or a white student was rejected from medical school, on the basis of skin color euphemistically called "affirmative action", then don't they have a legitimate basis to be "racially resentful". But does that make either of them a "racist" necessarily? So what does that have to do with the "racism" charge used by opponents against the millions of Americans participating in the Tea Party?

Furthermore, the conclusions made by the study are highly subjective. They decided that disagreeing with the statement "Blacks should do the same without special favors" reflects "racial resentment". However a number of contradictory interpretations are possible. For example, couldn't a black person who thought he deserved "special favors" based upon his skin color, be deemed to be "racially resentful"? Of course. And couldn't a white person, who thought that blacks were equal to whites, disagree that blacks somehow needed "special favors" to have a level playing field? Most certainly because Tea Party members are Conservatives who believe in individual rights and who reject group rights and identity politics.

So this study, from a handful of cherry picked states, is not statistically representative of the millions of people in the national Tea Party movement. The premise, methods, and conclusions used by those who conducted the study are highly controversial and questionable. Therefore the study is in violation of the

This is textbook original research. You have critiques of the study -- fine. But your critiques as a Wikipedia editor count for precisely nothing. If you want to have an impact on this article along these lines, what you do is get your ideas published in a reliable source, and then it can be used here as a source. I might even share your critiques -- but it wouldn't matter, the point is that they have no bearing on the use of the source given Wikipedia's policy on original research. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 17:05, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

Concur with Nomoskedasticity. I'll also interject a bit of frustration that this type of blatant OR fills the article's talk page and is constantly being used to "justify" numerous deletions and reverts. I understand that the 3 editors feel strongly about their

WP:TRUTH, but something is going to have to be done about the crusading. BigK HeX (talk

) 17:19, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

I agree as well, we have to follow what the secondary sources say, it is not our job to evaluate "premise, methods, and conclusions used by those who conducted the study". --Nuujinn (talk) 17:34, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

Did any of you actually read the study, or the Newsweek article compared to the actual statement in the article? I have presented a synapsis of the information on the talk page. The OR is plainly clear for anyone that wishes to see it. Arzel (talk) 03:17, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

It is not original research to mention an academic study. In fact they are the best sources available. But the expression "Critics of this study..." is weasel wording. The reference is a WSJ editorial which should be directly attributed, provided the opinion is considered sufficiently notable for inclusion. TFD (talk) 03:40, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

When did I say it was OR to mention the academic study? The OR is in the presentation of the sample population to give the impression that the study is representative of the nation as a whole. Even the Newsweek article doesn't go that far. Arzel (talk) 03:46, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

Basic Synapsis for reference:

• This what the article currently states (section Bolded is the OR).

A study conducted by the University of Washington found that Tea Party Movement supporters were statistically more likely to be racially resentful than the population as a whole.[70] Critics of this study suggest that while it's possible that agreement with statements like "Blacks should do the same without special favors" reflects a resentful spirit, it also could reflect a respectful one--a confidence that blacks are as capable as anyone else.[71]

• This is what Newsweek says:

Until now, that is. A new survey by the University of Washington Institute for the Study of Ethnicity, Race & Sexuality offers fresh insight into the racial attitudes of Tea Party sympathizers. "The data suggests that people who are Tea Party supporters have a higher probability"—25 percent, to be exact—"of being racially resentful than those who are not Tea Party supporters," says Christopher Parker, who directed the study. "The Tea Party is not just about politics and size of government. The data suggests it may also be about race."

• Notice that the comparison is not between Tea Party Supporters and the rest of the population, but between Tea Party Supporters and Non-Tea Party Supporters. If you actually read the study you can see that this is a sub-sample of the population as a whole. study

• This is what the study says about the methodology:

The survey is drawn from a probability sample of 1006 cases, stratified by state. The Multi-State Survey of Race and Politics included seven states, six of which were battleground states in 2008. It includes Georgia, Michigan, Missouri, Nevada, North Carolina, and Ohio as the battleground states. For its diversity and its status as an uncontested state, California was also included for comparative purposes. The study, conducted by the Center for Survey Research at the University of Washington, has a margin of error of plus or minus 3.1 percent and was in the field February 8 - March 15, 2010.

• This is what the author of the study says:

Moreover, I make no claim that the data is representative of the country. Rather, they are representative of the states that were sampled. Appropriate weights, based upon the American Community Survey, have been constructed.

The current wording is patently FALSE. We cannot say that the Tea Party Movement was compared to the population as a whole. neither the Newsweek article, or the study make that claim. If you read the study you can see that Tea Party Supporters + Non-Tea Party Supporters is a subsample of the whole population. It must also be specified that the study was limited to seven specific states. Additionally, the study did not make a statistical statement, it stated that the difference was "Suggestive". Arzel (talk) 03:58, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

I should've quoted this one to begin with, but anyways .... the current wording is a patently accurate reflection of the Newsweek article. From the article

Surveyers asked respondents in California and a half dozen battleground states (like Michigan and Ohio) a series of questions that political scientists typically use to measure racial hostility. On each one, Tea Party backers expressed more resentment than the rest of the population, even when controlling for partisanship and ideology.

While Arzel is correct that the Newsweek article describes a comparison of Tea Partiers to non-Tea Partiers, he fails to understand that there is another comparison performed in the study. So, actually, there are two comparisons from the study which get covered in the Newsweek article. As Arzel has elaborated, there is one comparison of Tea Party supporters to Tea Party non-supporters, but also another comparison is made of certain Tea Party supporters to a more complete group that is not limited to just the non-supporters. The quote above from Newsweek is a summarization of this latter comparison. And given this source, the article wording is accurate. BigK HeX (talk) 06:35, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

No, you are incorrect. The second paragraph you describe is the Newsweek explanation of the Parker quote from the previous paragraph. read the study, ALL of the comparison was between supporters and non-supporters. The author was even questioned on this and responded at 538.com. Please stop trying twist the meaning of the study. Arzel (talk) 13:30, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

Since he's posting the above on the OR noticeboard, would anyone care to point out the irony that his above "defense" seems pretty clearly based on his personal assessment. After the last few weeks of this, it's getting rather tiring for me to keep pointing out that his personal research into matters does not trump verifiable text.

In any case, the bottom line is that the source CLEARLY states "Surveyers asked respondents in California and a half dozen battleground states (like Michigan and Ohio) a series of questions that political scientists typically use to measure racial hostility. On each one, Tea Party backers expressed more resentment than the rest of the population".

Compared to the wiki article edit which says, "A study conducted by the University of Washington found that Tea Party Movement supporters were statistically more likely to be racially resentful than the population as a whole.[72]"

Keep raging against the machine. Someone will eventually be impressed. BigK HeX (talk) 15:16, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

Now that you realize you are wrong you resort to

Personal Attacks? Nice. Arzel (talk

) 18:51, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

The choice 7 states for the research was clearly explained in the paper. It is not up to us to challenge the methodology of studies but to use reliable criticism that challenges it. TFD (talk) 01:39, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

At

If you answer is that the sourcing (and links I provided on the talk page) are insufficient, can you please tell me what would be sufficient? Alternately, if you think that this article/table/image do not violate OR, can you please explain how they should be cited or why this is the case? Thanks in advance for your thought! 0¹⁸ (talk) 01:38, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

I am amazed that the article has been allowed to exist for so long. I haven't looked at the precise issue you mention because the whole thing is total OR and any competent POV pusher could add tables to show whatever they wanted. I agree that the simple idea is rather nice: compare the national debt at the beginning and the end of each presidential term. However, life is not so simple in practice and independent secondary sources that have worked out what each President did that resulted in an increase or decrease is required. Johnuniq (talk) 04:24, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

Observations about political affiliation and changes in US government debt has been made by several political commentators (Paul Krugman for example). This makes the introduction of this issue into Wikipedia not OR. Citations to those outside commentators would be welcome however. If I have time, I'll leave some cites on the article talk page. LK (talk) 06:40, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

Okay, these are the two ways I saw of seeing it. A third editor on the page called it a "routine calculation." I can see all three sides. This is why I posted on this noticeboard. How do we sort this out? 0¹⁸ (talk) 15:17, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

The article suffers from clear OR and factual accuracy issues. As O18 points no, no source exactly replicates the table, it has been created via

WP:Synthesis

. Further, its making an apples-to-oranges comparison. Spending bills originate in the House, but the article implictly lays responsibility for spending in the executive branch. A table collating spending by who controlled Congress would be better (though still very problematic). The problem is that the entire article, down to the color-coding on the chart, is clearly designed to promote a particular point of view, rather than factually educating the reader. For instance, the majority of the spending increase in the 2005-2009 period happened when Obama took office in Jan 2009, but it's chalked up to Bush.

The largest problem of all is that federal fiscal years don't begin and end on presidential terms. Whenever a president is elected, they "inherit" a portion of the budet from the previous president, but can also work to make changes themselves (though as previously noted, Congress ultimately has more responsibility here). Trying to artificially align presidential terms to fiscal budgets just cannot be accurately done. Fell Gleaming^(talk) 15:29, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

FellGleaming, please stick to what is not referenced for this discussion. the article already states

Louis Fisher writes, "Congress rarely appropriates more than what the President requests." In the case of Nixon, who fought fiercly with congress over the budget, he writes, "Congress was able to adhere to the President's totals while significantly altering his priorities."

The point is the President sets the spending totals and they are adhered to. 0¹⁸ (talk) 15:37, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

Is that the ex-Socialist candidate for President? You're basing your argument of a remark of his made over 20 years ago? Congress regularly has and does exceed the amounts requested by the President...and that is the least of the problems in this article. The real problem is that you cannot align federal fiscal years with presidential terms. No matter how you allocate years, you're forced to tie at least some spending by a president to his successor or predecessor. Fell Gleaming^(talk) 19:29, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

FellGleaming, not sure if you know this, but NPOV and verifiability apply to discussion pages too. Can you please give us some sort of reference for Louis Fisher being a socialist candidate for president, that congress exceeds the President's request, and that it matters in any year other than 2009 that the President changed office. In addition, as was pointed out on the talk page, you actually argued for the timing that is currently used in the table. 0¹⁸ (talk) 01:18, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

• While I would generally say a table is basic and doesn't need to be published elsewhere, I actually do see this article as being inappropriate. Interesting data, but overall shallow and more fit for a blog post or something than an encyclopedic article. The topic is better treated in a scientific paper about political party's contributions to the national debt. I'm awfully sympathetic to the observation that Republicans have historically contributed more to the national debt, and I do think that it is an encyclopedic topic to cover at the
  United States public debt article, but the way it is done is more of a political jab. II | (t - c
  ) 06:35, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

What exactly makes you say it is a jab. I see almost zero text--mostly numbers. Can you please tell me what would help make it read as not a jab? 0¹⁸ (talk) 02:02, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

I don't think is really fit for a standalone article - it would be interesting statistics to supplement an article on how much each party contributes to the national debt, but standing alone it implicitly gives off that impression with stating it. For example, Barack Obama will oversee a serious increase in the national debt, simply because he inherited a crisis which caused reduced tax revenues and required increased spending. So in this chart he will look like a big spender even though it really shouldn't be attributed to him. II | (t - c) 20:35, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

The editors on the Talk:Neuro-linguistic_programming#Norcross_2006 are unsure whether it would be acceptable or not to use this source for the article on NLP given that does not actually discuss the data/results or make any conclusions in relation to NLP in that paper. It seems to me that it would be original research to make inferences from the data that the researchers themselves did not make.

In this paper there are four tables. In tables 3, Neuro-linguistic programming is listed with the results for round 1 (mean = 3.57) and for round 2 (mean = 3.87) of a survey of psychologists. A score of 4.0 is regard as "probably discredited". Another treatment which had a score of 3.5 was described as "between possibly and probably discredited". We can assume that a score between 3.0 and 4.0 is possibly discredited so NLP may be in this category.

Table 4 again lists a test of significance (p-value < .004) in which the opinions of psychologists from the CBT v. PD-HUM. The CBT group corresponds to scores averaged across cognitive and behavioral orientation and PD-HUM corresponds to the scores averaged across psychodynamic and humanistic. It shows that CBT > PD-HUM which presumably means that the mean rating by psychologists from the CBT orientations was less favourable toward NLP than the mean rating by psychologists from the PD-HUM orientations. The results of some tests were discussed in the paper but the results related to NLP were not. The tests that were discussed were ones which fell below 3.0 or were above 4.0.

There is debate on the talk page Talk:Neuro-linguistic_programming#Norcross_2006 and in recent edit history over whether including these results would constitute original research or not. One of the problems is that the results are not discussed in the paper. We can only speculate why the data from NLP was not discussed. Maybe the researchers did not deem it important enough or they thought the rating of 3.57 was in the neutral area so nothing could be concluded.

We are also interested in guidance about what sources are acceptable as reputable/reliable sources for this subject. And what would be considered original research in general for this topic. It is particularly difficult because there are no university level text books dedicated to the subject. There are peer-reviewed journal articles dedicated entirely to NLP in various disciplines. And there are books and journal articles which cite NLP literature written by the founders and by its practitioners.

Action potential ^{discuss contribs} 11:20, 30 May 2010 (UTC)

I and some other editors have a problem with Minphie (talk · contribs). He have his way on many articles in the scope of Harm reduction and is "juxtaposeing" to make "valid arguments" against harm reduction that is "evidenced and factual" and "logically correct". However, looking at the sources he uses, in many cases it is evidenced that they not are critical of harm reduction. In one instance he for example uses kingheathpartners.org to make an argument against de cost-effectiveness of heroine assisted treatment, but looking at the source kingheathpartners.org is actually making the contrary argument, that it is cost-effective. Then he brings Sweden to that table, using a source that does not say anything about wither Sweden is have a cost-effective drug policy or is making it an alternative to heroin assisted maintenance. Another example of OR is this where he saw together an original synthesis with the same kind of selectivity shown above, not showing that the "critics" in fact used the sources in the way he did.

I would be pleased if someone took a look at the above, informed Minphie a last time about original research and then reverted his edits to Harm reduction. Steinberger (talk) 10:28, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

Steinberger has not understood the differences in formal logic between synthesis and deduction, and herein lies his misunderstanding. I have indeed cited a medical media release on the UK heroin trial as my source for the COST per participant and as my source for the ONGOING ADDITIONAL COSTS of acquisitive crime to the UK community from these same participants despite their provision of free heroin. I have then juxtaposed (not synthesized) the ongoing costs of heroin maintenance with the once-off costs of rehabilitating heroin users such that they cost the community nothing in acquisitive crime or ongoing maintenance. The deduction is clear and indubitable.

IF the heroin trial participants are still costing the UK community 15,000+ pounds p.a. in real terms (as demonstrated from my cited source)

AND a rehabilitated user, who after an initial one-off investment costs the community no pounds at all (a given)

THEN the rehabilitated user is the cheaper strategy.

This is precisely the argument of the critics of the heroin trials. There is no synthesis or original research. Straightforward deduction is not empirical research in any shape of form, where rather it is 'induction' at play. Unless Steinberger can grasp the difference between deduction and induction he may continue to make the error of thinking that deduction is original research. Others may assist him better than I. I have put a similar explanation on the Harm Reduction Talk page.

Minphie (talk) 23:05, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

No, that is still an

WP:Synthesis

and the result you get when doing it is factually wrong. The addicts that can get heroin by prescription have failed numerous attempts at rehabilitation, including with methadone. They are the treatment-resistant worst five per cent, according to your source. The alternative to heroin as given in the source you quote is not rehabilitation, but prison and the cost for a year in prison, according to the source you quote, is 44k£.

Your argument however, can still be done. But then you have to have a source where it is made explicitly and properly attribute it to it. That is perfectly fine and in accordance with

WP:OR. But that is not the case here, is it? Steinberger (talk

) 08:38, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, as I read Wikipedia's policy on Original Research "straightforward deduction", as you call it, is a classic example of original research. Any logical inference from the sources, that is not explicitly stated in the sources, is Original Research. --SteveMcCluskey (talk) 22:32, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

Concur. We are documenting knowledge, not drawing and presenting further inferences and conclusions we create from it. While in academia the process described might be considered deduction, it's a pretty cut and dried synthesis/OR issue for a neutral encyclopedia. If a credible independent third party had drawn and published those same conclusions in reliable sources, that would be different. FT2 ^{(Talk | email)} 05:49, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

Nice to hear that I have understood the policy correct. Thanks both for taking your time. Steinberger (talk) 17:31, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

I am an uninvolved observer of this dispute and I am not convinced that this dispute is as clear cut as made out and I am worried about the direction this dispute is taking. It appears the accusers here allow uncited POV original research such as the following commentary, "Little anecdotal evidence supports them beyond the arguments and claims put forth by anti-harm reduction groups themselves." and "Critics furthermore reject harm reduction measures for allegedly trying to establish certain forms of drug use as acceptable in society:" minimise criticisms of harm reduction. See this article section. I am concerned that this noticeboard is being used to generate "evidence" to get a newbie editor community sanctioned from wikipedia based on comments by Steinberger on [1] and a user conduct RfC being filed Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Minphie. The newbie editor Minphie is concerned with the POV of the article and I can see why. Am I right in saying that the above bolded examples of uncited commentary is original research? Outside views would be welcome.--Literaturegeek | T@1k? 11:22, 30 May 2010 (UTC)

Additionally this mass revert was done on the grounds that Minphie was doing synthesis and original research but when I checked the sources, I did not see any synthesis or original research. I did not read every reference but about half of them and seemed fine and the mass revert seemed to be on flawed reasoning. Most of the sources also seemed to be ok. This is not a one sided issue.--Literaturegeek | T@1k? 12:47, 30 May 2010 (UTC)

I agree with LG. Even though I disagree with the critics of the SIS these criticisms are verifiable and thus should be included on Wikipedia. These safe injection sites have not been around very long and thus many conclusions surrounding them cannot yet be made. Well Minphie may have picked onesided passages. These should have been balanced rather than removed. And this should probably have occurred on the subpage

talk · contribs · email

) 23:55, 30 May 2010 (UTC)

• I agree that the example presented is original research. I also agree that the article should try to be neutral. Scanning the mass revert it does seem like some of the citations removed were likely not used in an original manner. I glanced through Google Scholar and didn't find a lot of criticism on harm reduction. Harm reduction approaches to alcohol use:: Health promotion, prevention, and treatment (2002) mentions that the practice has been controversial and discusses criticisms briefly at the end, but is overall supportive. Controlled drinking: more than just a controversy seems similar. II | (t - c) 03:13, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

Thank you for your comments. Yes a lot of areas of harm reduction is fairly common sense and not controversial, though some forms of harm reduction are controversial for a number of reasons. :)--Literaturegeek | T@1k? 17:53, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

Over the mass revert, there was mainly four things:

1. that "Critics of this intervention point to these same evaluations of safe injection sites" (four sources, were only one is in fact pointing to a evaluation that was preceding or following, namely this and it mainly summarized other findings then the ones that were following)
2. the statement that Vancouver and Sidney are the most evaluated drug consumption facilities (novel and without citations)
3. that "[Vancouver] cost ...$3 million per annum to operate ... [although] indicating just one life saved from fatal overdose per annum" indicating that it is cost-inefficient although the same expert review where the figures were taken from said it is cost-efficient; exactly mimicking what above is said to be a original synthesis
4. that this partisan "review" was used without attribution (its findings contradicts the official evaluations on many points)

To make Minphies edit compliant to policies (not only NOR but also NPOV) it had to be completely rewritten. Steinberger (talk) 09:36, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

We have an editor at this article who I and others think is inserting OR. He argues that he can use primary sources the way he is using them and his edits are not OR. As he plans to edit other articles similarly, some commments here would be very helpful. My reversion is at [2]

This is pretty straight forward on first glance.

WP:NOR would apply. -Andrew c ^[talk]

15:17, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

I concur with

Dougweller. The article already has secondary sources discussing Aristotle, and since the point of the article is not Aristotle, but natural law, it seems quite sufficient now. The editor has already said that his own forthcoming paper will address this...which is a red flag for me as well. Tb (talk

) 17:10, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

• Perhaps a second glance is in order in this particular case. My addition was first reverted based on the false assumption (everybody makes mistakes) that I was advancing the view that Aristotle "believed" in natural law. That was NOT my intention; that has never been my view; and I thought that what I wrote made it perfectly clear that I was not advancing such a view. In other words: this whole issue arose because of another editor's unexplained misinterpretation, so I reverted the deletion.
• It was my assumption that what I wrote was so self-evidently, even banally, mainstream that no citation was necessary. Obviously I was wrong about this, so I'll go back and provide footnotes to on-line encyclopedias to reassure everybody when I revise and re-post what I wrote. Here's what I intend to use for starters: http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/aristotle-politics/supplement3.html Perhaps my choice of words inadvertently crossed some red-lines of scholarly disputation. If so, that is a matter for discussion and re-phrasing, not deletion.
• Finally,
  Natural Law
  discussion page) that my forthcoming paper will address the use of "happiness" versus "property" in the Declaration of Independence; and I have been very careful not to give even a hint of my own view on that issue here at wikipedia. My forthcoming paper says absolutely nothing about Aristotle or natural law.

I think the purpose of the noticeboard is to receive third-party feedback, not for us to continue the dispute from the article's talk page (which anyone looking here can easily access). So far, the only comment from someone not involved in this dispute is Andrew c's. RJC ^Talk_Contribs 02:27, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

If you can't find secondary sources discussing some particular point about Aristotle and natural law (or really, Aristotle and anything) then it shouldn't be in an encyclopedia, because Aristotle has been done to death. The purpose of an encyclopedia is to summarize secondary sources, not primary ones. But to the question at hand, the material removed in the diff supplied above is unquestionably original research. Some of the second and third paragraphs of the current revision of the Aristotle section are as well. The third paragraph talks about "the best evidence of Aristotle's having thought there was a natural law comes from the Rhetoric..." referenced to the Rhetoric. "Aristotle notes that natural justice is a species of political justice, viz. the scheme of distributive and corrective justice that would be established under the best political community;[8] were this to take the form of law, this could be called a natural law, though Aristotle does not discuss this and suggests in the Politics that the best regime may not rule by law at all.[9]" You can't state something from a primary source—"...natural justice is a species of political justice..."—and then form conclusions—"...were this to take the form of law, this could be called a natural law". This is original synthesis. Of course this doesn't mean it any of these statements aren't true or widely accepted analyses of Aristotle. It's just saying they runs afoul of Wikipedia's original research policy. I'd suggest finding sources which support the text. If it's as mainstream as RJC says it is, this should be relatively easy. -

talk

) 23:35, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Stereotypes_of_white_people&action=historysubmit&diff=365560546&oldid=365555768

A user has continually been inserting biased material which is either not supported by the given citations, or is cited with websites. This is attested to in the diff above (it represents the re-insertion of often-deleted material). I would greatly appreciate some guidance from fellow editors as to whether this material is flagrantly in breach of WP:NOR and WP:RS, or whether I am in fact totally insane for being sure that this is so. I stand ready to call a psychiatrist or revert the article depending on your answer. BillMasen (talk) 14:10, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

Note: The same issue is being discussed at

WP:RSN#Stereotypes of white people. Blueboar (talk

) 15:58, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

Article edit states:

"Members of the Spanish and other international economic press continue to use the term of art in its narrow and restricted economic sense as a grouping acronym like the related BRIC."

Supporting ref's include:

1. "Those are reasons enough to trust that will arise as promising economies that will follow the BRIC group, comprising Brazil, Russia, India and China, in its ability to maintain the vigor of the global economy, a condition, then, makes reliable to international investors, in contrast to calls from the PIGS countries (Portugal, Ireland, Italy, Greece and Spain) facing high debt ratios and fiscal deficits and have enormous difficulties in maintaining economic stability."[3]
2. " We are in changing times, we talk about new economy, reorganization of capitalism, new economic centers, such as the BRIC (Brazil, Russia, India and China) or the PIGS (Portugal, Greece, Ireland, Italy and Spain) what position to take to those changes? "[4]
3. "This was stated by HSBC's chief executive, Michael Geoghegan, presenting his strategy in Hong Kong. ... emerging are not the 'Bric' or 'Pigs', are a class of countries, which share a time of global economic growth, a changing patterns of wealth, changes in trade routes and share..."[5]
4. "This uncertainty has led experts to form categories according to the common behavior of certain countries in this economic swing. Thus, while Brazil, Russia, India and China form the BRIC powerful and Portugal, Ireland, Greece and Spain (Spain) embed PIGS, our country has become part of civets: Colombia, Indonesia, Vietnam, Egypt, Turkey and South Africa."[6]
5. "Today we bring you full commentary.... As you can see, the article generated a lively debate on the concept of reciprocity between BRIC dwellers and the environment PIGS."[7]
6. "The PIGS take over the BRIC"[8]
7. "One danger is that fractures within the euro area will distract the ECB from staying on top of inflation. A particular worry is what could be called the PIGS—Portugal, Italy, Greece and Spain, Europe's negative version of the fast-growing BRICs. The fear is that these countries may be in a hole they cannot easily climb out of and that the ECB will be pressed into running a looser monetary policy to save them.[9][10]Additional Ref's are available.[11][12]

Additional refs:

"UK exports: The dominant PIGS and subordinate BRICs" [13] "Do BRICs (and Germans) Eat PIGS?"[14] "Of BRICs and PIGS"[15]

More:

Spanish economic press usage:[16][17][18][19], From Russia,[20], From China,[21], ... Ecuador,[22] etc..

Note also that the editor who objected to this individual(1.) sentence noted above has now removed 25 additional ref's from the article and questioned each and every one of them... .99.141.254.167 (talk) 20:05, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

The acronym is certainly common in the US media... but I would say it is a neologism. As such, we should probably not have an article devoted to it (it might rate a passing mention in a broader article on the economy of Europe). Suggest AfD. Blueboar (talk) 20:32, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

The question is regarding the OR or SYN of the specific sentence. It is the sentence itself that has been rejected as OR & Syn by a single editor, one who also was given the same supporting Ref's listed above. As an aside, and not relevant to the question, the article as a whole has already been before AfD. The decision was "keep". (ADD: I'm not sure if you were reflecting on the Ref's presented or adding an observation in general - but I don't believe that any of the presented Ref's are US media. .99.141.254.167 (talk) 21:00, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

Blueboar, agree. It (unfortunately)

talk

) 10:42, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

"OR and synthesis are bound to dog it." That's why we're here. You specifically[23][24][25][26][27] object to this sentence as OR & SYN. It's now time to provide a reason and support your contention. 99.141.254.167 (talk) 13:41, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

None of the references explicitly support the sentence (as with many of the references used in your rewrite). References cannot rely on an original interpretation or be combined in a fashion forwards an interoperation not found in the original sources. Please read

talk

) 14:10, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

Question... what is the original interpretation? Blueboar (talk) 15:37, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

There's a lot mixed in (partly based on POV issues around the topic). The sentence appears in the context of discussion of criticism of the term and is apparently intended to contradict the sentence appearing immediately before it, which says the term has been criticised as being pejorative by members of the Spanish-speaking press. It is in that context that the references requires original interpretation. They are being used in discussion about criticism of the term, apparently to contradict references that discuss criticism of the term, yet none of them actually discuss criticism or otherwise of the term. Original interpretation is required to see them in that context.

(Another, issue I have is that none of them actually say that BRIC is a "related" term to PIIGS. Some of the above refs compare the BRIC economies to the PIGS economies, but none say they PIGS and BRICS are "related" terms.) --RA (

talk

) 16:10, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

The sentence is factually correct and has been fully supported by the ref's. PIGS and BRICS are related terms - as clearly stated, they are grouping acronyms. They group together nations which share certain economic similarities. These groups are frequently the focus of discussion in which they are compared and contrasted with each other. We could diagram the sentence, or we can replace the terms with other analogous examples, "FINABEL, NATO, ANZUS" ....etc. In which way do you gather from the boatload of evidence to the contrary - that they are not related? Do you have a supporting ref which expressly states this? --Philcha (talk) 14:19, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

As others have said, BRICS and PIGS are just acronyms that group certain nations, like "FINABEL, NATO, ANZUS". In the case of BRICS and PIGS, the two group's economies make a sharp contrast. The Spanish-speaking press criticism as "PIGS" as being pejorative press is unproductive as it draws attention to the economies and especially to these nations' addiction EU subsidies from the EU's Social Fund, which have left their economies uncompetive since the 1970s. --Philcha (talk) 08:26, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

talk

) 13:01, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

I can probably since sources from good economists, but can't be bothered. However, citation words the other way too - the Spanish-speaking press criticism as "PIGS" as being pejorative press needs citations. If none, rm the Spanish-speaking press criticism; if cited, they just make themselves stupid. --Philcha (talk) 14:19, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

I wholly agree. The article as it stands is a bold re-write entirely by 99.141.*.*. I've had no hand, act or part in it. Like I posted above, the problems with the rewrite is not this one sentence alone. Referencing, original thought and commentary are problem throughout.

talk

) 14:41, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

What, -->exactly<--, is OR? Where is it? It's a ludicrously simple statement. What is it that you think is being said there? .99.141.254.167 (talk) 19:29, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

Which of the sources you provide discuss use of the term by the Spanish press? Where does that source say the Spanish press "continue to use the term"? Where does it say that they do so "its narrow and restricted economic sense"? Where does it say that they do so in the "sense as a grouping acronym like the related BRIC"? Original thought is required to see those quotes in these terms. References on Wikipedia need to be explicit. No original thought.

(This is not a comment on the veracity of what you have written. It is simply that on Wikipedia we are concerned only with

talk

) 20:06, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

You're wrong. You've completely misinterpreted Wikipedia policy. We have a slew of referenced Spanish Press using the term - to now demand that stil another source be quoted that the Spanish press use the term is ludicrous. The use of the term is self-evident.99.141.254.167 (talk) 21:18, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:No original research: "The only way you can show that your edit is not original research is to cite a reliable published source that contains the same material. Even with well-sourced material, if you use it out of context or to advance a position not directly and explicitly supported by the source, you are engaging in original research; ...." (Emphasis in original.)

It must be explicit. It must be in context. --RA (

talk

) 21:30, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

I think you've lost the plot. We say "members of the Spanish press continue to use the term" because we have ref's which show that members of the Spanish press continue to use the term. To demand a separate ref which explicitly states, "members of the Spanish press continue to use the term" is ridiculous. Your sudden personal interpretation of Wikipedia standards is not found in the policy you point to. .99.141.254.167 (talk) 21:41, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

Resolved

 – Per User:Anythingyouwant [28], "The objection regarding "original research" has been dropped by the editor who raised it." TheFeds 07:04, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

Okay, this is a hypothetical question related to a real editing dispute (at Family planning).

Suppose there's a Wikipedia article about the Solar system, and also suppose there are separate Wikipedia articles about each of the planets. I come across a reliable source that says Jupiter is x times bigger than Mars, but the reliable source does not explicitly mention the "solar system." Would it be okay for me to cite that reliable source for the proposition that Jupiter is x times bigger than Mars, in the Wikipedia article about the Solar system?Anythingyouwant (talk) 01:59, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=John_Ritter&action=historysubmit&diff=365355367&oldid=365355165

In March 2010, the Thoracic Aortic Disease (TAD) Coalition, in partnership with John's widow, Amy Yasbeck, and the John Ritter Foundation, announced the creation of the Ritter Rules. The purpose of Ritter Rules is to help raise awareness among the public about aortic dissection so they can reduce their risk of the same kind of tragedy that took the life of the beloved actor. Ritter Rules came out in conjunction with important new Guidelines for the Diagnosis and Management of Patients with Thoracic Aortic Disease[9]

Reference 9 is this http://circ.ahajournals.org/cgi/reprint/121/13/e266.pdf

I think that it is OR to imply that Ritter's death caused reference 9 to be issued. The first part of the reference says that they have put out guidelines since 1980 and have a task force to update them.

That would be like saying that Michael Jackson died and some Professor wrote an Anesthesiology book in 2010, therefore the Professor wrote it because of Michael Jackson.

Comments or disagreement? I want to learn, not argue. Suomi Finland 2009 (talk) 15:14, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

I checked the PDF as well as re-checked the reference. The reference doesn't say anything even remotely similar to what that diff does. It looks like OR to me

KoshVorlonNaluboutes,Aeria Gloris 16:44, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

Is it original research that the editor look up at primary sources and state: " Reference A and reference B have no accounts on X historical event"?

• Yes. But to get a better answer, please at least indicate which article your question refers to. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 12:39, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
• Actually the correct answer is... Perhaps Yes, Perhaps No. - We need to know more specifics as to what the primary source document is and how it is being used in the article. Blueboar (talk) 14:22, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

This is a general issue over which I would welcome more information. Geo Swan (talk) 17:14, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

It's like proving a negative...can you show that for all cases (i.e. everywhere in the book), the proposition is accurate? That fact would be difficult to cite using traditional methods (page numbers, for example). On the other hand, it is

original research

, because you're advancing a proposition about the reference, and the reference is (presumably) a valid primary source about itself, for descriptive statements of simple fact. However: if one could plausibly argue against the proposition, or you need to interpret the references in some special way to draw your conclusion, then it's unfair to call it a simple fact, and the usual rules for controversial statements would apply.

Overall, I think caution is warranted here. If it's not an important statement to make in the article, just avoid it. If you must include it, just make sure that what you're saying is incontrovertibly true, and list A & B as references to that fact. TheFeds 17:02, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

Hello. There are several attempts to exalt this slovene dialect to a recognized language. This mainly by inserting POV to the article and repeating the same dubious sources again and again.

The link to this article was then inserted to virtually all slovenian based articles, see Special:WhatLinksHere/Prekmurian dialect.

This attempt started in July 2009 and spreads accross almost all major wikis in some 40 languages, including commons. Time enough for several webpages around the world to copy the content and now serving as sources.

(All this is done by one single user, but this is not the point right now) --R.Schuster (talk) 20:21, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

I ask the Wikipedia, that ignore the R.Schuster's method, as this is chauvinist campaign against the prekmurian.

1. R.Schuster's allegation: dubious sources a greating chauvinist assertion. Marko Jesenšek, the author of 1, 2, 3 sources is the rector of University in Maribor – recognized, appreciated personality. Likewise Marc L. Greenberg in the Kansas University (1, 2, 3, 4) authoritative source.

2. R.Schuster simply accept the sources in german language, as this sources mostly slovene, hungarian and some english. Unbelievable, that R.Schuster attempt muddy Vilko Novak, Ágoston Pável and Marko Jesenšek, that dubious sources. Vilko Novak is dead, but sure bring a suit againts R.Schuster, if you live.

3. R.Schuster and his fellow Longoso also in the german wikipedia follow this campaign. There Longoso was tell this ignoratn statement, that only the old Prekmurian have standard. What this apple souce?! The Novine between 1913 and 1945, the Kalendar Srca Jezušovoga and few book, for ex.: Hodi k oltarskomi svestvi was work to the new standard prekmurian regional language!

4. Longoso and R.Schuster vainly quest sources in the internet, as not yet every source in the internet, alone in the books in slovene and hungarian language.

5. Besides: the bosnian, croatian, slovene, hungarian, german, serbian, srebo-croatian articles is my works, vainly suspect me R.Schuster.

talk

07:16, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

This new oppinion of Schuster: irrelevant dialect. R.Schuster is mightly ignorant and savor of the chauvinism. Reason (or desecrate) with the guidelines of wikipedia, but the guideline of the wikipedia the correct designation of the sources. And my sources is wathertights.

talk

09:03, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

You stated on my talk-page: “I'am slavistic undergard in Szombathely University and my thesis-theme the prekmurian standard language.”

And that's exactly the reason why I filed this article here.

reliable sources

. It also refers to any analysis or synthesis by Wikipedians of published material, where the analysis or synthesis advances a position not advanced by the sources.”

Further reading: Wikipedia:No personal attacks. --R.Schuster (talk) 10:00, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

Shcuster? You was wrote thesis-theme in University?! I was make census of the sources. Ca. 40-50 published books, dissertations, essay, harangue is my sources! Revolting! This desecrate with the guidelines of wikipedia!

Presently there is an ongoing discussion about the use of book based sourcing versus original research over at

Could someone please do a fact check on the article? Much of the content could potentially be vandalism. -Regancy42 (talk) 00:22, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

I have found that posting on the talk page of a suitable project (see article's talk page) often gets good results, whereas it is less likely that someone here will have the necessary knowledge. The stuff you removed was clearly nonsense, but what remains is not obviously wrong. Johnuniq (talk) 00:48, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

This is a list of coaches (of college football teams in the United States) whose teams have performed poorly under their charge, according to various criteria. Is this ok? (See Talk:List of poorly performing college football coaches.) Shreevatsa (talk) 02:15, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

Wow! Please someone AfD this page as the opposite of our role. Johnuniq (talk) 04:09, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

Agreed. Article nominated for deletion. ElKevbo (talk) 03:36, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Could anyone please investigate the synthesis being introduced at Inedia. An editor keeps inserting a video analysis of their own, not supported by any reliable sources, just as to disprove the criticism by the Indian sceptics association. Thank you. Dr.K. ^{λogosπraxis} 02:08, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Same problem as Inedia: disputed video analysis. Also see article talkpage for RFC. Thank you. Dr.K. ^{λogosπraxis} 04:49, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

It is quite an interesting subject, I suppose. Wiki encourages editors to create images on their own and post them as there are often problems with copyright issues [[29]]. Those images are not OR if referenced. But now I have a question if maps are also included. How would a map be referenced? But the main question I am experiencing difficulties with are historical maps. For historical maps a very serious historical, geographical and topological researches have to be done. For creating a historical map by an editor seems impossible to be competent enough and I could claim any unpublished historical map made by any editor an OR or at least an Original Synthesis. Can we at all consider such made maps proper for an encyclopedia??? Thank you for your comments! Aregakn (talk) 22:49, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

The presentation of a published map is what is copyrighted; the information therein is not. So if an editor adds exactly the information from any published map to an extant map template, then that is one way to make a new map without doing OR.

There is already the precedent in many election articles applying results data to map templates demarcating the districts. In this way, a new map gets created where no map existed before; this is also not OR.

What both of these have in common is that they are relatively simple. As maps get further removed from a single original source, such as by referencing multiple sources at once (separate historical, geographical, and topological sources), then it starts to become

WP:Synthesis. The line when this starts is not well defined; if you want to make maps, I would encourage you to start with a simple one then get feedback as you attempt more complex iterations. Blue Rasberry

13:07, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

The map was created by a non-professional with many issues I'd claim OR or/and SYNTH, no topological consideration and I see no references to any RS [30]. It is important to evaluate it to be or not an OR because the map is used on many articles.

In this case of disputes 1 question arose - "the created map is easier to read". Even if so, the map is not academical and violates the above mentioned rules of Wikipedia. But for this issue there was quite a lot of work performed to bring a map based on a reliable source to a "more easy to read" condition [31]. Aregakn (talk) 00:55, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

Issues to be discussed and results - achieved

1. Does the 1st user-created map [32] contradict to the rules?
2. Is the 2nd user-created map [33], referenced to a reliable souce, an OR or Synth? If not, is it preferable for use than the 1st?

Thank you for participation! Aregakn (talk) 00:55, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

Discussion with final conclusions (please note the latter in BOLD)

As the 1st map does not respond to correct political borders of the Roman Empire, in my opinion, it can only be used in 1 case: when describing which provinces has which type of status in the Empire. I do believe this 1st map was created only with this goal and not to have propper borders of lands etc. But of course, in any case, even this use is only possible when the info is referenced to RS(s), and yet it is not. Aregakn (talk) 00:55, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

Is there nobody willing to put an opinion about the very issue? :) Aregakn (talk) 20:49, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

A user added the following image

The deletion request in commons is closed and, obviously, the result is Kept. Allegedly being

WP:SYN is not a valid reason to remove an image from commons. Furthermore, In heraldics, any drawing [of a CoA] corresponding to the definition is correct (as long as a herald can recognise it) or There is no such thing as an "official CoA (drawing)" in heraldics. See commons:Commons:Coats of Arms#Definition and representation --Ecemaml (talk

) 10:23, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

But it doesn't correspond with the definition, thats the point. Its an approximation. Justin talk 12:06, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

How does it not, exactly? It looks good to me. Connormah (talk | contribs) 13:24, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Justin, this is an odd argument to make. By your reasoning, all images and diagrams directly based on written material would need be removed. That would mean likely half of the coats of arms images (there are tens of thousands easily, if you are not aware of how common they are), all of diagrams or representations of elements, compounds, enzymes and pharmaceuticals would be invalid for inclusion, any diagram illustrating scientific theories such as photosynthesis, evolution, evaporation and so forth are also ineligible and also any and all random images made for the sake of nothing else but to add a little visual to an articles. As for the whole issue about if it is the coat of arms, it is. A coat fo arms is about the design, not the style nor shape of a shield. The image is based upon both a written description and a black and white image, so there is clearly no original research here since there is the original governmental grant and the follow up books recording the grant. [tk] XANDERLIPTAK 18:56, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

The problem being it didn't follow the style of the coat of arms as decribed, or the the B&W image. I have other issues with it being inaccurate for the coat of arms as awarded, due to the depiction of Antartica when it hadn't been discovered at the time. The question no one seems prepared to answer is why create a colour image that has issues, when there is a perfectly acceptable period piece that suits the article and its free? But its B&W. Justin talk 11:40, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

I am no fan of these clip art type arms, but the black and white image is rather poor quality. Style does not invalidate arms, no matter how bizarre or lacking or non-period. As for Antarctica, it is a minor issue that does not change the arms, but precedence should be given weight and the image modified to conform. However, this would not be the place for that. [tk] XANDERLIPTAK 14:48, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

This edit removed the image I've thumbnailed here, without offering any explanation beyond an edit summary that said: "rm - original research".

I am asking for advice here because the contributor who removed this image and I have had many disagreements over what constitutes original research. I won't try to paraphrase or otherwise represent the position of my correspondent, because my good-faith attempts to do so, in order to try to verify I understand what they meant, or to offer background when I have asked for third party input, make them see red.

I am a bit frustrated that

I would think

WP:OI might apply here - Original images created by a Wikipedian are not considered original research, so long as they do not illustrate or introduce unpublished ideas or arguments, the core reason behind the NOR policy. Barnabypage (talk

) 17:19, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

This single edit could have been discussed on the articles talk page and i suggest we move the discussion there over the issue if this image increases the quality of the article and therefor should or should not be included in the article. What do you think? IQinn (talk) 22:19, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

The suggestion that this issue should be discussed on the talk page of an obscure article after saying "I have removed countless (maybe 1000!) instances of WP:OR that this user has created" is very misguided. Naturally such extensive disagreement needs to be discussed on a central noticeboard and this seems the appropriate place. I am not experienced in this field (whether an image is OR), and I hope others will comment, but I will give some preliminary thoughts: The map in question seems very useful; I doubt if a suitable substitute is available; the facts should be very easy to verify, so OR would not apply; what about images like File:Turkey (orthographic projection).svg used in Turkey – should they be removed? Johnuniq (talk) 23:47, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

No i do not think we should remove File:Turkey (orthographic projection).svg as they are thousands of reliable secondary sources for the fact where Turkey is located in relation to other countries.

Did you check the source for the information presented on the image we are discussing here?

The problem is that these is a set of redacted primary sources where it is often unclear which location they really mean. IQinn (talk) 00:17, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

This is a general noticeboard so please spell out the problem. What source do you mean? What is redacted? What is unclear? (Yes, if I were commenting on the article talk, I should be expected to have read the article and to have a clue, but I think it would be helpful for this noticeboard if you were to specify clearly what the OR issue is.) Johnuniq (talk) 07:30, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

Yes, the individual(s) who use the wiki-id Iqinn have claimed that my contributions are full of

WP:OR

. It seems to me when I have asked for the input of uninvolved third parties they generally have not backed up Iqinn's interpretations of policy.

Iqinn asked Johnuniq:

"Did you check the source for the information presented on the image we are discussing here?"

I regard this question as an instance of a very serious lapse from

WP:OR

because I created it.

I don't believe I should have to prove Khirullah Khairkhwa was reported to have had an association with the locations on this map, or that I did not distort the map by providing inaccurate locations for those cities. However, I am going to do so, in hopes that it will hammer one nail into Iqinn's largely bogus challenges to my contributions, once and for all.

1. this link confirms KK's association with Kabul;
2. this link confirms KK's association with Kandahar;
3. this link confirms KK's association with Herat;
4. this link confirms KK's association with Mazar-e-Sharif;
5. this link confirms KK's association with Spin Buldak;

I have created over one hundred maps for the wikipedia, and its sibling projects. When I add specific geographic locations to those maps I use the latitude and longitude from our articles on those locations. Only when our articles don't state the latitude and longitude do I look elsewhere. I believe that every single geographic location I added to those hundreds of maps used reliable coordinates. Geo Swan (talk) 14:56, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

In this comment the wiki-id Iqinn wrote: "Sure he did it in good faith but multiple other editors told him that many of his contributions are indeed WP:OR but he did not listen for many years and kept filibustering until just recently where he admitted that a large number of his edits are indeed based on WP:OR."

User:Iqinn has a habit or lapsing from the convention that talk page discussions are for the discussion of the editorial content of the wikipedia, and instead makes comments on my character. I have decided that rather than respond in kind I will draft a single response to each of the personal comment they make about me, on User talk:Iqinn, and simply link to that comment each time they repeat the personal comment. I have done that here. Geo Swan (talk) 17:12, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

Please see the new discussion at Original images below. Johnuniq (talk) 23:55, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

Please feel free to explain to other editors who should know better here: Talk:Libertarianism#WP:Original_research_in_the_lead why this diff which replaces WP:RS neutral info with an abstruse philosophical original research/personal opinion statement is against policy. Thanks!!! CarolMooreDC (talk) 07:51, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

heavens, that is a bit cockeyed. I'll weigh in at the discussion. --Ludwigs2 14:34, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

FYI, by the time you got there it had changed to including material and pretending the existing refs were relevant, which they really were only in small part. CarolMooreDC (talk) 19:14, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

well, ok. Libertarianism isn't exactly my forte, but I know a good bit about political theory, and I'm willing to weigh in with that as best I can. what do you think the best approach is? I can keep trying to clean stuff up from general knowledge, but until I get a chance to dig into the sources I'd do better following your lead. plus, is there a decent version of the page in the history that would be useful to examine? --Ludwigs2 19:51, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

Resolved

 – see below

There is a disagreement between two editors (myself being one of them) regarding the appropriateness of the following text in the Deepwater Horizon oil spill article;

In their environmental analysis of the proposed well BP stated that in the unlikely event of an accidental spill "water quality would be temporarily affected by the decomposed components and small droplets", but that "currents and microbial degradation would remove the oil from the water column or dilute the constituents to the background level". They saw "no adverse activities to fisheries" and no danger to endangered or threatened marine mammals and no adverse impact to birds. (ref used: [34])

The ref. used is an environmental assessment section of an initial exploration plan written by BP and submitted to the US government, thus a primary document. No secondary sources accompany the primary source and none appear to have employed the listed quotes. Furthermore, the source does not contain any footnotes to clarify whether the quoted text is is based upon the assumption of a large or small scale oil spill. In short, my view is that the context can not be definitively verified without specialist knowledge, making the issue a mixed

I agree that using a primary source here is not appropriate. The primary source does not make clear what is meant by "spill". But their definition of "spill" is unlikely to be larger than their worst-case scenario, which according to the documents BP would be able to contain. However, their worst-case scenario has been vastly exceeded, so applying the definition of "spill" in section 14.2.1.5 has no bearing on the current spill. Tying the projected spill (however large) from the initial assessment to the current spill is original research. I haven't tried, but I don't think it would be too difficult to find a secondary source that has reported on BPs environmental analysis (or lack thereof). -

talk

) 18:54, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

Are you suggesting that oil companies may use the term "spill" differently than the way it is being used by the general public or the wikipedia definition? I understand their worst-case scenario to be 162,000 barrels per day as shown under 7.1 Exploration Plan, Volumn Uncontrolled Blowout. It seems that I am not reading the document correctly? Section 14.2.1.6 - Fisheries, has not been challanged - why would that BP statement be different than their water quality statement? Will others be looking at this problem, or will this be settled by just one editor? Thanks! Gandydancer (talk) 23:05, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

Resolved. Simple Google search for quoted text found secondary source. Added. Thanks Paulscrawl (talk) 17:22, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

This is following on from a discussion at Talk:Irish people#Coat of arms. An editor who may have a conflict of interest (which is being addressed separately) is producing highly decorative images of a coat of arms that bear no resemblance to any known variants published by a reliable source. This is apparently due a a coat of arms being defined by a blazon, which in this case is a right hand cut of in a straight line at the wrist painted in red. Now it strikes me that the possible number of different images that can be created from such a description is virtually limitless, and his disputed image looks nothing like ones displayed on websites such as this and this. This makes it an original image in my opinion, as it is only an editor's idea of what the coat of arms actually looked like, and there is no evidence that the image is an accurate depiction of "The Red Hand of the Uí Néill dynasty", only "Alexander Liptak's impression based on the Uí Néill dynasty blazon". While heraldry websites may encourage creation of such images, I am of the the opinion it is impossible to create a verifiable image from a description such as a right hand cut of in a straight line at the wrist painted in red without breaching content policy, and that we should only use depictions used by reliable sources. O Fenian (talk) 08:19, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

This was brought up at Irish people, O'Neill dynasty, the revert notice board, the conflict of interest notice board, the WikiProject heraldry and now here. The user is simply fishing for one notice board to side with him, being he is currently only receiving the support of the one same editor everywhere else. They're argument is basically, "I don't know anything about heraldry, but I know that can't be right." Anyways, I have suggested the WikiProject Herladry would make the best place to settle the arguments because it is the appropriate and concerned WikiProject. I would appreciate it, for sake of ease, to address all comments and questions there rather than having to go through five talk pages and notice boards. Kindly, [tk] XANDERLIPTAK 08:54, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

Oh, and O Fenian, if you look up just a bit to the James Cook posting, you will see if was discussed already that a shield's shape does not constitute original research. G'day. [tk] XANDERLIPTAK 08:56, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

Wrong. It has been brought up on one article talk page, your conflict of interest has been brought up on the conflict of interest notice board, and now the original research is being brought up in the correct place - here. The issue is whether whether the creation of original heraldry images from a blazon is at odds with Wikipedia policy. O Fenian (talk) 08:58, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

What you explain is not original research if you yourself admit it is based off a written description. If it is taken from an historical document, that is not original in any way but a faithful representation. By your argument, no user on Wikipedia could upload his own files, because it would be original. Photos that you take which are originally made, diagrams of scientific material which can not be taken from texts because of copyright issues such as cycles, atomic structures and so forth and illustrations like the images used to represent the seals, emblems and coats of arms of nations would all have to be purged from Wikipedia. This is a tried and failed argument time and time again. Please look through the history before you waste time of the notice board like this again. [tk] XANDERLIPTAK 14:06, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

Wrong. All I see is a discussion about Commons, which has no bearing on English Wikipedia policy. That heraldry has its own rules is also irrelevant, since they do not and can not override Wikipedia policy. You also appear to be quite ignorant of image licences. O Fenian (talk) 16:49, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

In the course of documenting the agencies in the Virginia government and in documenting the various state lotteries,

Resolved

 – Nothing else to do here. Answers have been given, rehashing it won't help. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 19:44, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

Input from experts on policy is requested for the following proposition, with regard to the interpretation of

A+B articles must have every edit sourced to A+B

WP:RS, and every edit of the type A must be taken from a page in the vicinity of one also mentioning B, or vice-versa.

Nishidani (talk