Wikipedia talk:Notability (people)/Archive 2016

Proposal

Replace whole and replace with:

In the case of subjects who do not pass the GNG the only additional criteria are:

• winning a significant and well known industry award that is not scene related and where the award category has itself been subject to meaningful discussion in independent reliable secondary sources; or
• is a member of the AVN or XRCO hall of fame.

The intent of the change is to set clear boundaries on who should be allowed a BLP violating article where they would otherwise fail to meet the GNG. Far too much recent discussion about low level or actually non-notable award cetgories as a reason for NN pornstars to have articles. This has to stop. Discuss...

• No
  BLP policy rather than base decisions on vote counting. 86.17.222.157 (talk
  ) 20:49, 21 August 2016 (UTC)

• Strong oppose The rationale behind this proposal is spurious. No BLP-violating articles are permitted, and Spartaz, who has been editing for more than ten years, knows that. — MShabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 21:29, 21 August 2016 (UTC)

• The problem is that the
  WP:BLP policy. Of course it shouldn't, but that is what actually happens, so a possible way to deal with that problem is to change WP:PORNBIO to remove any possible confusion. 86.17.222.157 (talk
  ) 21:57, 21 August 2016 (UTC)

• Not only is that untrue, but it assumes that Wikipedia administrators can't tell the difference between valid keep arguments and invalid ones. That's not true either. — MShabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 23:03, 21 August 2016 (UTC)

• BLP expects us to rigorously source BLPs but Pornbio is used as device to maintain inadequately sourced blps. MShabazz obviously knows this but would rather dismiss the issue rather than address this, the bottom line is why anyone should condone inadequately sourced blps.
  Spartaz ^Humbug!
  22:33, 21 August 2016 (UTC)

• Spartaz, your contempt for articles about pornography -- and the editors who write them -- is legendary. Put up or shut up. Where are these BLP-violating articles that have survived AfD? — MShabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 23:03, 21 August 2016 (UTC)

• You just need to look through the list of porn related afds to find examples of inadequately sourced articles kept for ridiculous awards. Superslut of the year or analist of the year comes to mind. We are having stupid discussions about stupid wards for people who clearly do not meet the gng. oh an playing the man already? Contempt is reserved for those that promote shit articles not the articles themself. My stance on sourcing blps has been consistent for years and is not confined to this genre of articles but why let facts get in the way of an ad hom.
  Spartaz ^Humbug!
  23:10, 21 August 2016 (UTC)

• Spartaz ^Humbug!
  05:06, 25 August 2016 (UTC)

• Then just state that while getting a notable award for being in a Hollywood film, for a major scientific breakthrough, etc, makes you notable, this does not apply to pornography, soapbox derbies, biggest Girl Scout cookie sales person of the year award winners, and other such unnotable things. Wouldn't that solve the problem? You want to eliminate something, do it directly, don't try to make wording vague and just dismiss any guideline you disagree with in AFDs. Dream Focus 11:26, 25 August 2016 (UTC)

• That's why the inclusion threshold, both for ANYBIO and PORNBIO, was raised from "notable" award to "well-known and significant" award years ago, supported by strong consensus. The fact that a few users don't accept this -- mostly in the context of porn performer bios -- doesn't justify the ongoing disruption to frustrate enforcement of well-established consensus. The Big Bad Wolfowitz (aka Hullaballoo). Treated like dirt by administrators since 2006. (talk) 12:05, 25 August 2016 (UTC)

• Strong support Wikipedia has had far too many inadequately sourced articles about pornographic actors for far too long. It's time to clean out the stables. DavidLeighEllis (talk) 22:52, 21 August 2016 (UTC)

• So only pornbio articles need good sourcing?  Arguments like this one are a reason to mark WP:N historical.  More practically, we need to reinforce the idea for all articles supported by SNG notability that WP:V#Notability and WP:RS are still required, and that wp:notability does not guarantee that we have the NPOV material to source an article.  Unscintillating (talk) 23:03, 21 August 2016 (UTC)

All articles need good sourcing. It just so happens that PORNBIO is a rogue special notability guideline which causes the inclusion of articles that would be deleted if evaluated under standards similar to any other SNG. DavidLeighEllis (talk) 23:07, 21 August 2016 (UTC)

So your response does nothing to support WP:V, WP:RS, or WP:BLP; and falls back on a proof by assertion that this is a problem somehow solved by tinkering with an SNG so that more pornbio articles will be deleted at AfD.  The first step in solving a problem is identifying a problem.  Unscintillating (talk) 23:49, 21 August 2016 (UTC)

David did identify the problem, which is that articles about porn actors are routinely kept on the basis of

WP:BLP by being sourced only to web sites that have no reputation for fact-checking and accuracy, and in fact have a reputation for publishing fantasy rather than fact. 86.17.222.157 (talk

) 20:37, 23 August 2016 (UTC)

Then your problem is that WP:V and WP:BLP were not considered at the AfD.  This is much more, though, because the basic concept of wp:notability is the evidence that a topic has attracted the attention of the world at large over a period of time (WP:N nutshell).  How old does one have to be to be aware that this industry involves physiological attraction, and that this attraction is a worldwide phenomenon?  Most of the bios considered at AfD are many orders of magnitude more notable than 15th century kings.  So if you don't like what is happening at Wikipedia, don't look at notability to fix what to you is a problem, because your problem is not wp:notability.  Try WP:NOT, and try pushing back on the pornbio industry to get bios written by reliable sources such as Bloomberg; but attacking notability is merely undermining our policies and guidelines.  Unscintillating (talk) 00:09, 26 August 2016 (UTC)

I'm rather taken aback by the concept that 15th century kings who are inevitably going to be the direct subject of numerous scholarly and encyclopaedic papers, books and studies are inherently of less interest then porn performers whose career is inevitably going to be relatively short lived and of passing interest. Can I check that you are aware that this is a project about an online encyclopedia and not a database of random ephemera?

Spartaz ^Humbug!

08:36, 26 August 2016 (UTC)

Sure, some academics track the Kings of Denmark.  How many people in the US have thought even once about a Danish king in the 15th century?  I see five: Margaret I, Eric VII, Christopher III, Christian I, and John.  Your assertion is "numerous scholarly and encyclopaedic papers, books, and studies".  But your assertion is not supported by the state of four of these five articles.  As per the tags on these five articles: Margaret I, "is written like a personal reflection or opinion essay that states the Wikipedia editor's personal feelings about a topic, rather than the opinions of experts"; Eric VII has "insufficient inline citations" and "needs additional citations for verification"; Christopher III has "insufficient inline citations"; and Christian I "needs additional citations for verification".  Penthouse, on the other hand, had monthly circulation of over 100,000 in 2012. 

The only substantive part of your response in two sentences is the words "of less interest".  Why should Wikipedia editors say that we have more or less interest in a King of Denmark than in a pornbio topic with more than 100 film credits?  That is one of the main benefits of our notability guideline, that Wikipedia editors don't tell the world what attracts their attention.  You also indicate unreasonably that films, that do not expire, are "ephemera".  Again, most pornbio topics are orders of magnitude more wp:notable than 15th century kings, and gerrymandering notability to pick winners and losers undermines our policies and guidelines.  Unscintillating (talk) 04:00, 28 August 2016 (UTC)

• Opppose What porn awards get any coverage other than in the porn industry? What is "meaningful discussion in independent reliable secondary sources"? What meaningful discussion could you have about an award like they? I agree we should get rid of number 3 "Has been featured multiple times in notable mainstream media" since that just means a brief appearance in a popular music video or whatnot. Just use the same criteria that exists for other actors. "Has had significant roles in multiple notable films, television shows, stage performances, or other productions." Was the film popular? Shouldn't matter what type of film it is, be it pornography, mindless blood and gore horror film, horrible but high budget Hollywood film, or whatever. Why not have the rules other Entertainers have work for porn stars as well? This includes entertainers guideline 2 "Has a large fan base or a significant "cult" following."" The
  WP:ANYBIO bit at the top shows awards, etc. Should link to a page that list every award that is seen as notable and if its on that list it counts, no matter what field they are in. You can then discuss adding or removing things there. Dream Focus
  23:18, 21 August 2016 (UTC)

• I would be fine with using the
  WP:NACTOR criteria. The problem, from your perspective, is that almost no porn films can be considered "notable", because they almost never meet the notability guidelines. It's the same reason we don't have thousands of pages for student actors who played roles in student films, nor would that change if student film producers gave out student film awards to each other. FuriouslySerene (talk
  ) 17:37, 24 August 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose - Pornography-related BLPs have been generally handled pretty well at AfD since the last update to PORNBIO several years ago. I suspect that this change here is mostly-related to trying to get rid of even more pornography-related articles than have already been purged recently from Wikipedia via the AfD/PROD process. The current "Has won a well-known and significant industry award. Awards in scene-related and ensemble categories are excluded from consideration." portion of the PORNBIO standard has been intentionally & significantly above the ANYBIO standard for quite some time now. Also, the current "Has been featured multiple times in notable mainstream media." portion of PORNBIO is very similar to our GNG standard, and it has not meant "a brief appearance in a popular music video or whatnot" at AfD either now or in the past.

It's also kind of an odd thing to see such a major change to our notability standards coming from someone that currently claims to be "retired"...how would that kind of user even know that there has been "Far too much recent discussion about low level or actually non-notable award categories" at AfD? The facts are that, at AfD (now and in the past), "inadequately sourced blps" routinely get deleted. Also, using trade magazine citations on Wikipedia from a related industry isn't new or controversial at all. Guy1890 (talk) 01:59, 22 August 2016 (UTC)

Whether an editor has forgotten to update a status template on their userpage is not relevant to this discussion.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  02:52, 23 August 2016 (UTC)

SMcCandlish, he hasn't "forgotten"; see [2], [3], [4], [5], [6], [7], [8]. -- Softlavender (talk) 03:00, 23 August 2016 (UTC)

OK, so it's a

WP:HIGHMAINT game. Still doesn't seem germane to the substance of the discussion.  :-)  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢

 ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  03:06, 23 August 2016 (UTC)

What's really "germane to the substance of the discussion" is that the initial claims made by the OP aren't actually true. One only need to look at the recent history of pornography-related deletion discussions (since at least January of this year) to see that there have only been 2 BLP-related AfDs kept, 7 BLP-related AfDs closed as no consensus (which is usually a default to keep), and many, many times those numbers of BLP-related AfDs that were closed as delete to see that the "problem" originally cited here really doesn't exist in the first place. Guy1890 (talk) 03:41, 23 August 2016 (UTC)

• Spartaz, this discussion is listed in Centralized Discussion, therefore inviting the entire Wikipedia community to comment on it. However, your proposal does not even list or link to what the existing criteria/text are, so how are editors supposed to know what they are !voting to change or keep? Also, if you are retired as your userpage states, why are you starting a proposal to change a longstanding guideline? Softlavender (talk
  ) 02:19, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
• Comment  The proposer has received a request to provide examples of the problem alleged to be "Far too much recent discussion..." but has refused.  Unscintillating (talk) 02:30, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
• Comment – Wouldn't the amended language of the second criterion exclude all actors outside the American film adult industry from qualifying under that criterion? Graham (talk) 04:03, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
• Strong oppose. There isn't much I can say that Mr. Shabazz hasn't already said, but this just seems to be the latest stretch in
  WP:IJDLI, as the proposer has a history of challenging several articles on pornographic actors, most of whom indeed pass PORNBIO (and whose articles have been kept; for example, Capri Anderson, April O'Neil, Nica Noelle). I also noticed that the only editors who seem to endorse this have also always seemed to !vote "delete" in porn-related AfDs; I'm sorry, people, but no matter how hard you try, Wikipedia is not going to get rid of pornography-related articles. Erpert ^{blah, blah, blah...}
  09:52, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
• Support I agree with removing scene-specific AVN awards from PORNBIO. The SNG is too expansive when it results in a SNOW keep that should have been delete per BLP1E. I can understand fans of porn want their hobby included just as the folks at MILHIST defend WP:SOLDIER. In this case, I don't think Wikipedia as a project benefits from including this content especially when dealing with BLPs. Chris Troutman (talk) 13:51, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
  • I hate to have to rain on your parade, but scene-related awards have been excluded from consideration for more than four years.[9] — MShabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 16:43, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
    • You are correct on that point. I still support tightening the requirements of this SNG. Chris Troutman (talk) 23:32, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose because my concerns above [10] have not been addressed by the OP. Softlavender (talk) 23:48, 22 August 2016 (UTC)

• The current guideline under discussion is, obviously, on the project page with which this talk page is associated. Why on Earth should the person starting the discussion be required to state the blindingly obvious before you can give a reasoned opinion? And the presence of a template on one of that editor's pages is, again obviously, utterly irrelevant to the issue at hand. 86.17.222.157 (talk) 22:21, 23 August 2016 (UTC)

• If it is so blindingly obvious, why is it not stated?  It is like a verbal contract, which is not enforceable in a court of law because there is no record of what was intended. 

  If it is important enough to add to a centralized discussion, why was it not important enough to proofread the post and remove any sentence fragments?

  When challenged to produce examples of "BLP-violating articles that have survived AfD?", the OP provided one AfD and stated, "This is an example of an article that clearly fails the GNG".  Can we now assume that the claim of a BLP issue in the OP is withdrawn?  Think about it, by your rules, the OP does not have to strike out the claim for us to know that the claim is withdrawn.

  As for the claim that the issue being discussed can be determined from the project page, this claim is flawed as the Project Page at PORNBIO has been edited since the start of this discussion, and the changes have not been discussed.  Unscintillating (talk) 02:59, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

• Don't be silly. Of course a talk page discussion doesn't have to make the explicit statement, "this discussion relates to the project page of which this is the talk page". Have you ever seen any talk page discussion do that? By your logic just about every talk page discussion that's ever been held is invalid. 86.17.222.157 (talk) 09:52, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

• An ad hominem based on a straw man built on a straw man does not advance the discussion.  The "explicit statement" quote is the first straw man because it is not the stated objection of the OP.  The words "by your logic" is the second straw man because I said nothing about what makes a talk page proposal valid or invalid.  And as for the premise that undocumented proposals are normal in talk page discussions, I think that what is not normal on talk page discussions is for a participant to ask for clarification of the proposal and to have the request denied.  Unscintillating (talk) 12:55, 11 September 2016 (UTC)
• Here is an extract from Wikipedia talk:Verifiability/Archive 53#RFC - Compromise proposal re first sentence to show that a community of editors can aspire to do better than proposals whose changes are not clear.

RFC Proposal re first sentence ipsum lorem

The proposal is in two parts...

• 1) change the opening paragraph:

From: The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is ipsum lorem. To:     The initial threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is ipsum lorem.

The other paragraphs in the lede will not change.

• 2) Insert a new section (as the first section after the lede, following the index box) to deal with the issue of truth/untruth...as follows:

==Assertions of truth and untruth== An editor's assertion that something is true is not enough ipsum lorem.

Rationale ipsum lorem

====Introduction==== The first sentence of the policy currently reads: ipsum lorem.

Here is another example, where the following is from a proposal to change the WP:N nutshell.  The diff is dated 2011-07-17T19:14:58.

from: Wikipedia articles cover notable topics—those that have gained significant enough attention by the world at large and over a period of time, and are not excluded for other reasons . ipsum lorem curr:  Wikipedia articles cover notable topics—those that have gained significant-enough attention by the world at large and over a period of time, and are not excluded for other reasons . ipsum lorem to:      Wikipedia articles cover notable topics—those that have gained sufficiently significant attention by the world at large and over a period of time, and are not excluded for other reasons . ipsum lorem

The curr version has the hyphen, and the to version uses "sufficiently". 

Unscintillating (talk) 12:55, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

• It's laughable that you accuse other editors of making ad hominem and "straw man" arguments when the only such arguments have come from you and your fellow
  WP:BLP policy, which mandates independent reliable sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. In this current discussion the same clear statement of what is intended was given by the first five words, "Replace whole and replace with:...". 86.17.222.157 (talk
  ) 19:33, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

• When you used the words "other editors", did you not mean "another editor"?  Unscintillating (talk) 04:43, 12 September 2016 (UTC)
• As for the assertion that there is anyone in the entire discussion who has advocated for BLP violations, please provide a diff or diffs.  Unscintillating (talk) 04:43, 12 September 2016 (UTC)
• As for the idea that this current discussion involves BLP, I remind you of what I posted above to you just yesterday, "When challenged to produce examples of 'BLP-violating articles that have survived AfD?', the OP provided one AfD and stated, 'This is an example of an article that clearly fails the GNG'."  Can we now assume that the claim of a BLP issue in the OP is withdrawn?"  Unscintillating (talk) 04:43, 12 September 2016 (UTC)

• Support in spirit; it's correct that scene-related awards are already excluded. I do think something needs to be done about the profusion of pseudo-sourced adult entertainer bios, much of the source material for which is obviously fictionalized and promotional, but the exact wording proposed probably isn't it. I would be happy to see a tighter proposal (but I don't edit in that area, so I'm not really in a good position to make one).  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  02:55, 23 August 2016 (UTC)
  • There isn't any fictionalized source material in the articles that I've seen. And PORNBIO is pretty tight already; for example, aside from scene-related awards, nominations used to be allowed as well. Erpert ^{blah, blah, blah...} 09:44, 23 August 2016 (UTC)
    • Are you saying that you actually believe biographical information sourced to porn industry web sites? The whole point of such sites is to peddle fantasy, not fact. 86.17.222.157 (talk) 10:41, 23 August 2016 (UTC)
      • All porn industry sites are like that? And your proof of that is where? Erpert ^{blah, blah, blah...} 09:59, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
• Strongly Oppose. This seems to be an other attempt at narrowing the field by some people with I presume the not so secret agenda of step by step eliminating the subject in its enterity. As I think the current WP:PORNBIO criteria are already applied too stringent, I am in favour of the status quo and definitely not in favour of an other attempt to tighten the criteria. -- fdewaele, 23 August 2016, 15:32 CET.
• Support - the current criteria is way too low a bar and allows low quality and poorly sourced articles about pornographic actors. I personally would favor removing the subject specific PORNOBIO and just using the GNG, but as a first step this is an improvement. There's really no reason why Wikipedia allows the industry's own promotional tools, which get almost no coverage in mainstream media (unsurprisingly), to decide notability. FuriouslySerene (talk) 18:49, 23 August 2016 (UTC)

• Notability is not a content guideline.  The core content policies are WP:V, WP:NPOV, and WP:OR.  Notability is defined outside of Wikipedia.  Or are low-quality poorly sourced PORNBIO articles ok as long as the topic meets WP:GNG or any of the other SNGs?  Unscintillating (talk) 19:33, 23 August 2016 (UTC)

• The most important point is that articles about porn actors need to comply with
  WP:V, and so have sources that have a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. Porn industry web sites do not have such a reputation, because their whole purpose is to provide fantasies rather than facts. Therefore no article should be allowed that is only sourced to porn industry web sites. Whether this outcome is achieved by changing WP:PORNBIO to reflect those policies, removing it altogether, or by closers of deletion discussions basing their decisions on policy rather than a policy-defying guideline doesn't really matter, as long as it is achieved. 86.17.222.157 (talk
  ) 20:31, 23 August 2016 (UTC)

• Can I count on both of your support if I propose that we bar articles about sports figures from citing sports websites and journals, which are at least as fantastic as anything related to pornography? And what if we bar the use of the business press in articles about businesses and businesspeople -- their job is to promote business, and the overwhelming majority of what they publish is reprinted press releases. And don't get me started on the Hollywood press corps. Or maybe we should all try to exercise good editorial judgment and not take everything we read at face value, without writing stupid guidelines unless we believe ourselves to be stupid people. — MShabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 22:56, 23 August 2016 (UTC)

• Sorry, no, your statement that "sports websites and journals, which are at least as fantastic as anything related to pornography" is false. The New York Times has a dedicated sports section. It does not have a porn section. FuriouslySerene (talk) 01:55, 24 August 2016 (UTC)

• I wasn't aware that The New York Times is now considered a sports journal, but it's been 15 years since I moved out of Manhattan, so I'm sure things have changed some. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 02:36, 24 August 2016 (UTC)

• Apparently you missed the "sports website" located at www.nytimes.com/sports. I think you are ignoring my point, though. FuriouslySerene (talk) 17:27, 24 August 2016 (UTC)

• This isn't quite correct, because the notability guidelines don't apply to page content. For example, a porn article subject can currently be considered notable based on winning an industry porn award but be solely sourced to a DVD information page and other low quality porn websites, because the reliable source guidelines allows those types of sources for certain non-controversial information. FuriouslySerene (talk) 01:55, 24 August 2016 (UTC)

• Support as a step in the right direction, per SMcCandlish and FuriouslySerene. Even better would be to apply the
  WP:BLP policy to porn actors just the same as we do for everyone else, and require reliable sources rather than source articles to the fantasy biographies on porn industry web sites. 86.17.222.157 (talk
  ) 19:26, 23 August 2016 (UTC)
• Support. The current PORNBIO is discredited and out of step with policy. Notability subguidelines are supposed to be indicators of likelihood to meet the GNG. PORNBIO doesn't do that. Continually, biographies meeting PORNBIO are deleted due to lack of independent coverage. If it weren't for the fact that PORNBIO is roundly rejected as meaningful at AfD, it would result in Wikipedia hosting a directory of porn stars, porn stars for whom there is nothing sourceable except directory information. Other websites exist for that purpose. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 04:07, 24 August 2016 (UTC)

  Not sure why that lie gets repeated so often.

  WP:NOTABILITY is quite clear that to be notable you either meet the general notability guidelines or the subject specific guidelines. They aren't "subguidelines" but subject specific ones. You have never had to meet both. When the concept of notability was being determined for Wikipedia, it was decided that winning a notable award, such as the noble prize, etc, or being responsible for a major scientific discovery, or other such things, made you notable, even if you didn't do interviews and get news media coverage. Not sure if anyone at the time thought winning a porn star award would count. Dream Focus

  07:03, 24 August 2016 (UTC)

• You are wilfully misreading WP:N. ("wilfully" because this has been explained to you before) The sub-guidelines are quick and easy indicators of notability, and WP-notability is a rebuttable presumption that the topic is worthy of a standalone article. WP:AfD is the final arbiter, and stubby porn biographies that meet the flimsy PORNBIO criteria are routinely deleted. Therefore, PORNBIO is a failure of documentation of practice, exceptions in the backwaters notwithstanding because they (PORNBIO-passing GNG-failing biographies) get deleted whenever wider attention is attracted. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 07:34, 24 August 2016 (UTC)

• Wikipedia:Notability "A topic is presumed to merit an article if: It meets either the general notability guideline below, or the criteria outlined in a subject-specific guideline listed in the box on the right;" See that? "Subject-specific" not "sub-guidelines". Quite clear. Dream Focus 07:49, 24 August 2016 (UTC)

• For PORNBIO, the presumption is very frequently in error. It is bad documentation. When AfD discussions are well-attended, the deciding factor is whether the GNG is met.
• The "sub-guideline" language may have been edited at some point, but its meaning and intent was and is accurate. But this really is not a substantive matter. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 08:15, 24 August 2016 (UTC)

• It very much is a substantive matter, because I think you are arguing to turn WP:N into a content policy.  The spirit of WP:N has nothing to do with having the content to write an article, and there is no need to change it.  There are various non-prose sources of evidence that a topic is notable, at which point we rely (or should rely) on our core content policies which includes WP:V#Notability.  Unscintillating (talk) 01:37, 25 August 2016 (UTC)

• No,
  WP:DUE. --SmokeyJoe (talk
  ) 05:25, 25 August 2016 (UTC)

• Support. As explained at
  NOTDIRECTORY. The SNGs, including BIO's additional criteria, serve as useful proxies for GNG that let us avoid time-consuming research and debates about whether a given quantity of coverage is "significant." But, averaged out, these heuristics need to approximate GNG; when subjects with almost no qualifying coverage are kept because of an SNG, the purpose of notability (and AFD) is defeated. Rebbing
  11:56, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
  • No, WHYN is what is known as a "rationale" in standardization, and does not itself constitute requirements.  WP:N is not a content policy.  Look at the history in 2007 and I think you will see various efforts to elevate what is now WHYN to a requirement level, but this was rejected.  Unscintillating (talk) 01:37, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
    • Right—which is why I'm relying on WHYN as an explanation and not a requirement in its own right: it justifies our notability guidelines in light of our content policies, which are requirements. Without significant coverage in multiple independent reliable sources, it's difficult to write an article that doesn't run afoul of at least one of RS, NPOV, or NOTDIRECTORY, and ensuring that articles can, with sufficient editing, be improved to meet our policies furthers the aims of the Project. Rebbing 12:00, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
      • So you agree that WHYN is not a requirement, but then you generalize that it means that both GNG and all of the SNGs have a purpose to "ensure we can, with sufficient effort, write articles that comply with
        RS..."  Why would you even attempt an argument like that?  WP:N has only one requirement, that a topic be "worthy of notice".  Even with GNG sourcing, the material is not necessarily prose.  You've opened the door to the argument, "there is not the material to write a reliable NPOV article so the topic is not notable".  This becomes a new definition of wp:notability, and this is a content definition, which WP:N is not.  That is the work of our content policies and WP:NOT.  So exactly the opposite is the case, that wp:notability does not mean that we have the reliable NPOV material to write an article.  This is fundamental to understanding and preserving wp:notability.  Notable topics are not guaranteed articles on Wikipedia.  Unscintillating (talk
        ) 13:23, 28 August 2016 (UTC)
• Support - Lends clarity to existing policy. Carrite (talk) 17:06, 24 August 2016 (UTC)

• No one has yet been able to explain the changes.  What will this change?  Unscintillating (talk) 01:37, 25 August 2016 (UTC)

• The changes do two things, they explicitly link PORNBIO to being subordinate to the GNG making it clear that theseBLPs require the same level of sourcing as we expect elsewhere. The second thing they do is take the borderline discussions away from ridiculous disputes about whether superslut of the year or analist of the year are qualifying awards by making that discussion about whether the award category has been discussed in indeoendabt secondary sourcing. Essentially this means that discussions will be based on sources not slanging messages between to pro porn keep everything crowd and what Rebecca1990 charmingly refers to as porn deletioners - i.e. those who think BLP sourcing rules and GNG apply. Since the sitewide consensus is that BLPs must have rigorous sourcing that's kind of an attack on the whole basis of article inclusion. What is interesting is that once you take out those with fioxed positions on porn the clear consensus amongst those editors with no skin in the game is that we should make the change. I think that proves my point.
  Spartaz ^Humbug!
  04:48, 25 August 2016 (UTC)

• "Explicitly linking Pornbio to being subordinate to the GNG" is part of what I mean when I talk about undermining our policies and guidelines.  If you look at the WP:N lede (reproduced below at #Alternate paths to define Wikipedia notability), GNG has no status higher or lower than either the SNGs, or other guidelines arguing directly to the WP:N requirement.  In effect, to any extent your proposal does what you claim, it must be ignored to the extent that it contradicts WP:N.  Further, you say, "...making it clear that theseBLPs require the same level of sourcing as we expect elsewhere...", but looking again at #Alternate paths to define Wikipedia notability, all paths to notability end up with articles whose WP:V requirement is to have 100% verifiable material.  Anyone who thinks that notability defines an article sourcing requirement is claiming that WP:N is a content policy, which it is not.  Unscintillating (talk) 00:09, 6 September 2016 (UTC)

• Arguing that the GNG is no more than any SNG is just silly. The GNG routinely trumps SNGs at AfD and DRV. The SNGs, for the most part (WP:PROF and WP:CORP excepted) are indicators for whether the GNG can be met, and the GNG is an indicator for whether the topic as a whole can meet core content policy WP:PSTS.

What are the changes? The change is a step to bring WP:PORNBIO into line with community standards consistently at play at AfD. The changes will remove the disservice to unsuspecting editors who have not yet become aware that the SNG is broadly discredited, and it will mean less futile arguments in support of directory information in the guise a biographies of non-notable performers.

Perhaps more importantly, it will help AfD return to discussing the quality of sourceable content. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 00:22, 6 September 2016 (UTC)

• This is a surprising viewpoint, and one you don't claim to be policy based.  But first note that you've not acknowledged the role the notability essays routinely play at AfD.  The losers in your scenario are the content contributors who cannot look at our notability guideline and predict results, see for example the DRV for Deepin. 

  We are back to the issue that topics can be notable but lack sufficient NPOV material to write an article.  Such cases require

  WP:DEL7 deletions, and it has not received a response.  These deletions may be more difficult than is obvious, as each reference to be removed may require a discussion.  However, such discussions keep focused in reality any claims that reliable sources don't exist.  Unscintillating (talk
  ) 03:37, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

• Support - per SmokeyJoe, etc. Ealdgyth - Talk 20:43, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
• Strong opposse - There are users who think the current PORNBIO guideline is too inclusive, and there are users, like me, who think the current PORNBIO guideline is too exclusive. If neither side is satisfied, doesn't that suggest the guideline is a reasonable compromise between both sides? And I'm tired of the porn deletioners being given an inch and taking a mile. The last tightening of PORNBIO has already resulted in over a hundred deletions of porn biography articles (so far). How about browsing porn biographies for more articles that fail the CURRENT guideline and delete them all before asking for a tighter guideline? This new suggestion to tighten PORNBIO even more is unreasonable. The new wording is also vague and open to (mis)interpretation, unlike the current PORNBIO guideline, which is more straightforward. Rebecca1990 (talk) 23:28, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
  • That's a very interesting response as clearly none of the articles deleted since the last change passed the GNG (or they wouldn't have been deleted) and therefore were inadequately sourced BLPs. Nevertheless your position is that we need more porn articles and that essentially means you are advocating the position that we should host BLPs that are inadequately sourced. Unfortunately, or is that fortunately, that's not how wikipedia works and we do have quite site wide consensus that if its a BLP we expect high standards of sourcing not lower because they are in porn.
    Spartaz ^Humbug!
    04:48, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
    • Rebecca is absolutely right. No matter how tight PORNBIO becomes, deletionists are never satisfied. Scene-related noms takes away? Not good enough, let's omit all noms. All noms taken away? Still not good enough, let's take away winners except for hall of fame inductees. Soon, there won't be any porn bios left on Wikipedia—duh, that's what you guys want! ...Anyway, that's not how Wikipedia works. Erpert blah, blah, blah... 10:00, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
      • Do you have anything to say that's actually related to Wikipedia policies and guidelines regarding notability and inclusion standards? So far you're doing virtually nothing here but impugning the motives of, casting aspersions on, and misrepresenting the positions of editors who you disagree with. The Big Bad Wolfowitz (aka Hullaballoo). Treated like dirt by administrators since 2006. (talk) 11:53, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
      • You're assuming that biographies of pornographic performers would never satisfy GNG or BASIC—the standards to which we hold most subjects. I find that proposition dubious. Rebbing 12:03, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
      • No one has ever advocated deleting an article that meets the standards of the GNG as applied to BLPs. What your response actually boils down to is that you want to keep any porn article that fails the GNG and are labelling and personally attacking anyone that tries to apply the same standard to porn genre articles are the community expects for all other BLPs.
        Spartaz ^Humbug!
        13:15, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
        • Responding to a user who is pretending to be retired but
          just happens to keep editing in an only anti-porn fashion is pointless, so...yawn... Erpert ^{blah, blah, blah...}
          22:53, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
• Strong oppose, per DreamFocus and Guy1890. I think the current guidelines are too exclusive with the bar set too high. Are we seriously going to make it even worse? Also the I find the keep arguments troubling because they seem to suggest that prudishness is a non-issue in main-stream media or in wider society. Since I believe prudishness is an existent problem I do not trust the average-Joe-this-hurts-my-feelings to decide unbiasedly. Instead, I believe that the main way that we can protect ourselves from prudish tendencies in our midst is by having a separate venue where notability can be discussed more explicitly. Pwolit iets (talk) 10:12, 26 August 2016 (UTC)

I'm trying to find "prudishness" in the notability guidelines - GNG - the SNGs - H-m-m-m-m. Well, I'm still looking - I'll have to get back to you. Wait! maybe it's in common outcomes - well, I still have to get back to you. ---Steve Quinn (talk) 12:52, 26 August 2016 (UTC)

• Strong support this is sorely needed. This will help to firmly place porno biographies into alignment and agreement with GNG and BLP along with our other policies and guidelines. It will also help to end the attempts to circumvent policies and guidelines as a tenable position in porno bio AfDs, which I have recently noticed has been occuring. I wish to personally thank User:Spartaz for doing this. Steve Quinn (talk) 01:22, 27 August 2016 (UTC)
• Comment - I don't think that we should be making wholesale changes to our notability guidelines just because some Wikipedia editors/administrators don't like the commentary that others have (mostly unsuccessfully) made at certain types of AfDs.

The facts are, again, that our notability guidelines (including the current PORNBIO standard) are cited all the time at AfD to delete pornography-related BLPs and that very few AfDs, since the last change to PORNBIO, have been kept at AfD (mostly due to them meeting the GNG standard). The facts clearly show that our standards are used way, way, way more often to delete pornography-related content than to "routinely" retain that type of content at AfD, even if that content is sourced to "Porn industry web sites".

PORNBIO is not a "low bar"...it's been intentionally set as a higher bar (even higher than it's associated NACTOR standard of which PORNBIO is actually a sub-category to) over the years to prevent the creation of "too many" pornography-related BLPs. No one that I know of on Wikipedia is seriously advocating for "more porn articles" on Wikipedia. It's also not at all true that "PORNBIO is roundly rejected as meaningful at AfD" at all...again, applying those exact, current standards has caused many, many pornography-related BLPs to be deleted from Wikipedia for many months (probablly more like years at this late date) now. Precident set at recently-decided AfDs routinely applies to later AfDs, whether they are "well-attended" or not. I think I can also safely say that there are exactly zero pornography-related BLPs being kept at AfD that are only "sourced to a DVD information page" on Wikipedia.

BTW, even the vaunted The New York Times has reviewed a few adult films over the years. Guy1890 (talk) 22:10, 27 August 2016 (UTC)

Guy, first of all this is not wholesale changes to our notability guidelines. Rather this seems to be only an attempt to explicitly tie PORNBIO to GNG and WP:BIO standards. From what I can see, It is not that the current Pornbio is low or high. It is the arguments I am seeing at AfD that claim the BLP subject is notable because he or she received an award per PORNBIO.

A pattern that I see is awards that lack any kind of acceptable sourcing per

WP:NRV

. So, this causes the AfD discussion to be more contentious than it needs to be. With this adjustment to PORNBIO the indications of significance are more explicit.

Also, time and again, I see press releases and promotional materials being used as sources, which are, by far, not independent of the subject. These PR materials are touted as sources indicating significance and noteworthiness of both awards and BLP subjects. This seems to be a misinformed approach. Perhaps the idea is to not create articles based on only promotional materials or industry related materials in the first place. Hopefully this tweak will help with that.

Also, I am not seeing how prior AfDs that ended in keep or no consensus have any bearing on an ongoing AfD discussion. As far as I can tell they carry no weight - especially when the "kept" articles were sourced with only promotional materials - and somehow that was missed - like an oversight. ---Steve Quinn (talk) 00:59, 28 August 2016 (UTC)

Again, we shouldn't be changing any of our notability guidelines based on arguments ("contentious" or not) that one sees & disagrees with at AfD. You and I have already been round & round at AfD recently about how your supposed "press releases and promotional materials" argument is completely false on the face ot it. Again, who would know better who won or didn't win a particular award than the awarding organization itself?? This is true for pretty much any awarding organization, including the Academy Awards.

The "subjects" of pornography-related BLPs are the people that the articles are written about, not the industry (or industries) that they might have worked in in the past. The idea that prior AfDs (regardless of how they were ultimately decided...keep, delete, etc.) don't have any relevance to a current AfD is also a plainly silly argument. Setting precedent is exactly one of several things that AfDs are for in the first place. Guy1890 (talk) 01:18, 28 August 2016 (UTC)

Comparing XBIZ Awards, for example, to

WP:EINSTEIN argument. The latter is an essay, not a guideline, but appears to be relevant here. K.e.coffman (talk

) 01:45, 28 August 2016 (UTC)

Both the trade publication XBIZ and the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences are obviously reliable sources for their own award ceremonies...that's what's really relevant here. Guy1890 (talk) 02:32, 28 August 2016 (UTC)

That's kind of the issue. Normally notability derives from a source independent to the event and under PORNBIO its coming from non-independent sources as the discussion tends towards ridiculous assertions rather than demonstrating the indepndant sources that discuss the award category.

Spartaz ^Humbug!

07:07, 28 August 2016 (UTC)

• [redact off-wiki content] [H]e doesn't seem to want to get his hands dirty by editing articles that he perceives to have BLP problems.  I checked his contributions and I had to go back to August 2015 [11] to find an edit to an article for being unsourced.  Unscintillating (talk) 22:30, 28 August 2016 (UTC)

• Do you want me to takew you to ANI for harrassment? If not, stop the opposition research and start working on discussing the policy concerns.
  Spartaz ^Humbug!
  06:12, 29 August 2016 (UTC)

• Right, where the record will show that I stood up for you within the past 48 hours.  I also did research on the word "policy", which shows that I have used the word nine times in the discussion, more than anyone else.  Your post here was the first time you've used the word, but later today you added, "Basically the [obscenity deleted] about supersluts pretty much forced my hand to try and straighten the policy out. 08:46, 29 August 2016 (UTC)  Pornbio topics, including this "supersluts" I assume, are massively wp:notable, so your remedy does not lie in an SNG.  Get it?  I've made proposals like a guideline at WP:NOT, new standards for biographies of fictional people (meaning where only the trade name is known), pushback on the industry to provide bios by highly reputable sources such as Bloomberg, and support for
  WP:DEL7 deletions.  Unscintillating (talk
  ) 01:17, 30 August 2016 (UTC)

• @Unscintillating: - this is really inappropriate. I request you remove that comment. I agree that it is harassment. And Guy1890 did not explcility point out who they were talkikng about. The link does not work. So to me, this means you are jumping to conclusions. Guy1890 can you please not go on a tangent like that again. This almost caused serious problems as I hope you can see. Steve Quinn (talk) 06:44, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
• Agree entirely. And, to make things worse, Spartaz's actual statement has been rather grossly distorted in its presentation here. The actual statement was "I'm a bit of a BLP zealot. For barely marginal people they are magnets for any shit someone wants to throw at them and they won't be sufficiently patrolled to protect them from the crap" -- an opinion shared by many responsible editors here, and which really has no bearing on the the policy and guideline issues under discussion here. It's downright creepy to see how many contributors here have such an emotional investment in pornography that they feel free to blithely smear editors who don't share their affection for the subject, and disturbing to note the unwillingness of much of the community here to place appropriate limits on, and sanctions for, that behaviour. The Big Bad Wolfowitz (aka Hullaballoo). Treated like dirt by administrators since 2006. (talk) 12:00, 29 August 2016 (UTC)

• Support -- the SNG in question needs to align to GNG; otherwise Wikipedia becomes a
  WP:WEBHOST for promotional BLPs, which often contain nothing much besides awards and nominations. K.e.coffman (talk
  ) 04:21, 28 August 2016 (UTC)
• Support. In general, the purpose of the special notability guidelines is to provide a tool for quickly determining when a topic is highly likely to have significant coverage in independent, reliable sources. Accordingly, we tend to keep articles about Olympic athletes, state and provincial legislators and winners of major prizes like the Nobel, Pulitzer and MacArthur Fellowships because experience tells us that the reliable independent sources are almost certainly out there for these topics with an in-depth search. However, winning an award which is at best iteself marginally notable does not automatically confer notability on all its recipients. Our
  verified by references to actually reliable sources, as required by policy. PORNBIO in its current form is a failure because it encourages the creation of articles about non-notable porn performers, which are frequently deleted at AfD. Every industry has internal trade publications, trade shows and insider back scratching awards. We do not need biographies of non-notable locksmiths, kitchen remodeling contractors, dentists, financial advisors, plastic surgeons, machine shop owners or porn performers, just because they might have won insignificant industry insider awards, but have not received significant coverage in reliable, independent sources. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it
  06:17, 28 August 2016 (UTC)
• Support SNGs have several purposes: they provide quick indications of whether a subject is notable without investing substantial time in searching for sources, they indicate when a subject may be notable in topic areas where sources may not be readily available, and they can give guidance on how the GNG should be applied to particular topics. It isn't a good idea for SNGs to be set up so that lots of subjects pass the SNG but not the GNG - if the subject doesn't pass the GNG then we can't write a substantial article on the subject without running into serious problems. The fact that we do seem to be having a number of AfDs in which the subject fails the GNG but not PORNBIO suggests PORNBIO needs to be altered. Hut 8.5 16:44, 28 August 2016 (UTC)

• If the problem is with WP:V and WP:BLP, why is the attention here going to wp:notability, which is defined outside of Wikipedia?  Do Wikipedia editors tell the world the topics to which they should be giving their attention?  Unscintillating (talk) 22:30, 28 August 2016 (UTC)

• Notability is closely linked to
  original research to string them together. These issues would all be compounded if the subject is a BLP. Hut 8.5
  10:02, 29 August 2016 (UTC)

• If an article fails
  WP:BLP) it should be deleted and is generally deleted, these principles are not negotiable and have nothing to do with notability guidelines. Cavarrone
  13:28, 29 August 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose, especially with any language that requires the subject of an article winning an award. A nomination should be sufficient to qualify for inclusion. —Locke Cole • t • c 02:31, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
  • That ship sailed yonks ago.
    Spartaz ^Humbug!
    06:12, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose per MShabazz and DreamFocus. I also don't like the idea of applying a "meaningful discussion" standard only to porn over ANYBIO's well known and significant criteria. It sounds like requiring the category to be notable itself but meaningful can be interpreted any number of ways. Morbidthoughts (talk) 07:23, 29 August 2016 (UTC)

• I think "meaningful discussion" is very clear in the context of requiring independent sources. This indicates that there be more than a trivial mention or a passing mention and in sources that do not produce the "product", i.e., the said "award". Also, there is no indication this change results in superseding ANYBIO, but is rather in agreement with ANYBIO #1 which states, "The person has received a well-known and significant award or honor, or has been nominated for one several times." Actually, and surprisingly, it is like a hand fitting into a glove. Interesting, I am glad you brought this up. And of course, this change will be useful for creating articles, as well for AfD discussions. Steve Quinn (talk) 03:39, 3 September 2016 (UTC)

• • Since we are on the subject of users motivation's being mentioned here lets just record that Morbidthoughts is one of the people who run IAFD and therefore presumably benefits from the click throughs they get from the IAFD posted below evcery porn article. That they are arguing to keep a wider porn inclusion standard against the GNG is not therefore surprising.
    Spartaz ^Humbug!
    08:43, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
    • I'm a volunteer editor there just like I am on wikipedia. I have no access to IAFD's web stats or financial information, and my previous history of pushing to tighten PORNBIO [12][13] would go against your theory that I am editing on behalf of IAFD's interest. Morbidthoughts (talk) 15:18, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose per
  WP:ATH allows the daily creation of dozens of permastubs on niche and sometimes borderline-notable sports (in those cases no one cares, as sport does not offend sensibilities). The example below about CRICKET s quite enlighting. Cavarrone
  07:32, 29 August 2016 (UTC)

• Wikipedia:Notability_(pornographic_actors) (last version
  ) (quite a reasonable SNG) was merged into WP:BIO;

The problem appeared to me to be that PORNSTAR biogrpahies form a Wikipedia:Walled garden. Extremely few but all the porn fans care about them. When nominated at AfD, the porn croud alone might turn up, usually, but when a wider audience participated the article would be deleted despite meeting the then worded PORNBIO section.

For a while, I had a go at participating in pornstar AfDs. Interestingly, I found the out-of-touch PORNBIO criteria to be out of touch both ways. PORNBIO would frequently would support a starlet nominated for some narrow award, but subject to zero real coverage, but in other cases (including some today), someone is nominating a pornstar for failing to have been nominated for an award despite non-trivial coverage in the media.

Others at DRV also noted that the SNG PORNBIO was discredited.

Having reviewed this, I see that it might be better to de-merge

Wikipedia:Notability_(pornographic_actors)

, to go back to the September 2007 guideline text.

WP:ATH, is actually squarely in the same boat as WP:PORNBIO

. Both serve to encourage directly-style coverage by way of biography permastubs of temporarily public people.

--SmokeyJoe (talk) 08:36, 29 August 2016 (UTC)

Smokey is right, my interest in this area came from the ridiculous cases reaching DRV not from any purile small minded objection to porn. If the usual suspects were not so determined to oppose the clear community consensus on this subject I would have left the area to them to police long since. Since they are determined to stick two fingers to the community and insist on trying to keep every crappy porn article it requires external involvement. Basically the shit about supersluts pretty much forced my hand to try and straighten the policy out. Good work guys.

Spartaz ^Humbug!

08:46, 29 August 2016 (UTC)

Cavarrone you need to do your research. I agree that CRICKET seems absurd but bear in mind that every first class cricketer in the UK is profiled every year of their career in Playfield Cricket Annual and that most broadsheet newspapers in the UK used to cover every country cricket match although the level of coverage has reduced in recent years. Do your research further and you will see me arguing vociferously against the retention of a single match Sri Lankan player (S Pereara I think) where we have no dob or first name and taking this through to DRV so there is plenty of evidence that I am consistent in my position and not on a crusade.

Spartaz ^Humbug!

08:43, 29 August 2016 (UTC)

@

WP:ANYBIO created before WP:PORNBIO

(I don't really know)? Indeed, I am pretty active at AfD area (even when not commenting there, because I am uncertain or because I consider an additional pile-on vote useless), and I keep on seeing ANYBIO and derivates mentioned with variable results dozens of times (I can eventually provide examples). As I said, sub-guidelines should be consistent with ANYBIO, whatever the field the people belong. I am fine with tighting PORNBIO and even deleting all the award-justified porn-bios as long as we first edit ANYBIO and the other SNGs in a consistent way or align them to GNG (it would not be bad for the overall quality of WP), otherwise we are just applying a double standard with a category of people (who, coincidence, is often blamed if not despised by a consistent part of the society) opposite to all the others (sorry if I am repeating myself). About de-merging pornographic actors from WP:BIO and having a more accurate guideline, I'm absolutely in favour of your proposal, but at the end of the day are you sure the current wording is looser than the former?

@

WP:NFOOTY, which allows articles about footballers who played 10 minutes in third-level leagues such as Lega Pro or 3. Liga and have no chance ever to come close to GNG? What about an article only sourced to a press release which just yesterday was de-salted and recreated on sight after a single game? The hated porn-voters just apply the rule of thumb "weakly passes a SGN while spectacularly failing GNG = notable" as others do with far more success and less examination on other less biased subjects, but the SNGs/GNG detachment question is way broader than saying that PORNBIO is actually a major issue, both in terms of quantity of poorly sourced articles and of AfD outcomes. Cavarrone

13:21, 29 August 2016 (UTC)

Comment. I have to agree with

WP:NFOOTY, notability which I find doubtful, but a pornactress/actor with an individual award would be barred under this new criteria because that award is not deemed "notable" enough by some purists. -- fdewaele

, 29 August 2016, 15:55 CET.

I 100% agree with everything Cavarrone said (well, except for the cricket-related articles, as that's not my field.) Erpert blah, blah, blah... 22:00, 29 August 2016 (UTC)

• notable award", if the award does not have an article, then being a winner or serious nominee is not good enough. It is bad enough suggesting that notability is inherited from the award, absurd to think that notability is inheritable from a non-notable award. --SmokeyJoe (talk
  ) 23:47, 29 August 2016 (UTC)

• To be honest, I always considered the notability of the award some sort of pre-requisite, so I certainly agree with the point and I agree in including the notability requirement in the wording of the SNG (and in ANYBIO too). Also, IMHO I would add a note clarifying that the notability of the award should be explicitly proofed through mainstream sources (not just trade publications). This would be a modification way clearer and reasonable that the proposed "meaningful discussion about the category" which is odd and potentially inapplicable: I just made indepht researches (which included some books I own) about David di Donatello and Nastro d'Argento, the main Italian cinema awards, and I found absolutely nothing coming close to a meaningful (or even passing) discussion for any of their categories, just general listing of award wins/noms and bios/articles about actors which mention the noms/wins. I am a bit worried several usually intelligent editors including you supported the proposal without addressing its contents, i.e. its confused wording and its general inapplicability, just because their generic bad feelings towards porn bios. Cavarrone 06:21, 30 August 2016 (UTC)

• This is sounding like agreement? The original proposal reads to me as effectively saying this, although it could be clarified. I definitely support *something* being done, as PORNBIO is not a creditable SNG at the moment. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 07:18, 30 August 2016 (UTC)

• WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS. But further, PORNBIO is worse than ATHLETE and ANYBIO in encouraging articles on temporarily public people because often with pornstars, unlike the others, the pornstarlets often use pseudonyms with poorly hidden real identities, and the Wikipedia article serves to enshrine their personal information even when they try to become private. If the pornstarlets devoid of real coverage were instead merged to articles covering collective award winners, there would be no encourage to dig into private information so as to completed the stub of a biography. --SmokeyJoe (talk
  ) 23:47, 29 August 2016 (UTC)

• I'm not sure where you got the idea that I was using
  WP:NOTTEMPORARY. Erpert ^{blah, blah, blah...}
  21:50, 30 August 2016 (UTC)

• "PORNBIO shouldn't be tightened while other SNGs aren't" is textbook OCE.

"temporarily public people" is a BLP1E issue. A starlet who features in a few films, has zero coverage otherwise, this brief film career completely disconnected from her previous and subsequent life, this is a BLP1E violation, and BLP1E outranks NOTTEMPORARY. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 23:51, 30 August 2016 (UTC)

OCE refers to articles, not guidelines. And BLP1E outranks NOTTEMPORARY? I'm not sure where that consensus is, but...since you brought it up, the example you mentioned is inaccurate to call a BLP1E violation. For example,

good article.) Erpert ^{blah, blah, blah...}

23:51, 31 August 2016 (UTC)

• Comment  I just did a Wikipedia search on "WP: WP:DEL9" and found only one hit.  Unscintillating (talk) 02:00, 30 August 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose  The consensus should be to support our policies and guidelines, and in turn support our content contributors, which this proposal is not.  Unscintillating (talk) 02:15, 30 August 2016 (UTC)
• Support After wading through the mountains. "Notcensored" is irrelevant as an argument. The issues are "what is notability?" using a similar standard for all categories of BLPs across Wikipedia. To the extent that PORNBIO violates that principle, it ought to be deprecated. For instance, suppose there were established "CHEMBIO" stating that any chemist mentioned in any standard text is automatically notable? Or JOURNALISTBIO stating that anyone who has had a byline in any wire service or newspaper is "notable"? Sorry - the GNG sets a standard which should be at least marginally followed by any SNG. Collect (talk) 13:59, 30 August 2016 (UTC)
• COMMENT But then you come back to the double standard issue again because there are BIOs who exactly state that as notability criteria. For instance
  WP:NFOOTY. Doing this change/tightening only with regards to PORNBIO is then a double standard and bias towards a particular type of bios. You should then only change it as part of a general overhaul of all separate BIO criteria and not just as part of an anti-porn crusade. -- fdewaele
  , 30 August 2016, 16:22 CET.
• Comment It seems to me, one of the main reasons for this proposal is because lately most Porno Bios that pass AfD are not actually passing GNG thereby satisfying BLP. When they pass AfD, it is not based on GNG because the sources time and again appear to be much less than adequate - industry promotional materials, and sometimes a twitter account and sometimes audience edited film database and sometimes a personal website, or a passing mention if they're lucky. Here are some examples [14], [15], [16], [17]. Also, there is no reason to mess with the other SNGs just because this one is being adjusted. The other SNGs do not demonstrate a failure to augment GNG. Steve Quinn (talk) 06:00, 31 August 2016 (UTC)
  • Typical of those who support this ill-conceived proposal, this comment is untrue. Those articles have not passed AfD, as Steve Quinn asserts. Rather, each is currently at AfD. — MShabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 11:24, 31 August 2016 (UTC)

• @Malik Shabazz: True, these are examples of Porn biographies that are in AfD. I wanted to emphasize these have he type of sourcing I have mentioned. Second, this is one of the persons I provided: this is Justine Joli's second nomination - the first was "keep" [18], which is one of the previous links. This is another one that fits the description in my post (but not one of the links orginally provided): [19] which just achieved "no consensus". Here is Gracie Glam (not one of the links originally provided), and K. Lockwood (not one of the links originally provided). Sorry about the misunderstanding, I was tired when I wrote that. Hopefully these four will suffice Steve Quinn (talk)

• Oppose wording I think that the SNG for porn is still too broad. But I think this is just going to cause less clarity. We should list the specific awards that meet the SNG with the understanding that the list will need to be updated every few years. The principle Spartaz has given (award category being covered) is a fine one, but I don't want to see a re-ligation of each award category on each AfD. And given the very strong feelings people have on both sides of this, that's exactly what's going to happen. So, IMO, the status quo is better than this proposal, but we do need a change. And I'd suggest we form a committee that creates a list of which awards should count for the SNG. It should probably be a list of 15-20 annual (one-person) awards (seems about right looking at the major Academy Awards and that there are probably 2 or 3 sets of awards out there (sorry I don't follow the field)). Hobit (talk) 09:03, 31 August 2016 (UTC)
  • Spartaz ^Humbug!
    12:39, 4 September 2016 (UTC)
    • I don't think that was much better. Again, I'd favor coming up with a simple black-and-white SNG. The hall of fame thing is such a black-and-white criteria, and I think we can simply "defer to a committee" and find a reasonable set of awards that we accept. Or maybe just have a list article for each year's awards and then cover each "significant award" winner in a paragraph or two unless they pass the GNG. I'm mellow, I'd just like a bright line rule. And ideally one that's a bit more restrictive than what we have as some of these BLPs are very lightly sourced (at best) even with non-independent sources. Hobit (talk) 02:51, 7 September 2016 (UTC)
• Support, per SmokeyJoe, and I'm concerned to see others say there are porn bios that might be violating BLP. SarahSV ^(talk) 19:31, 31 August 2016 (UTC)
• Support up to a point: I would actually propose that the guideline should be: Has been the primary subject of non-trivial coverage in reliable independent sources. Exactly as it is for everything, in fact. Winning a porn industry award or being in a hall of fame still does not mean we can have an article, because so much of what's written about performers on industry websites is fictional. It needs to be sources that are definitely reliable and definitely independent. Because, you know,
  WP:NOTDIR and all those other things. Guy (Help!
  ) 20:28, 31 August 2016 (UTC)
  • I don't think it's true that so much of what's written on industry websites is fictional. For example, XBIZ.com not only has press releases, but actual articles as well. Now, those would qualify as reliable sources; however, a message board post from XBIZ.com wouldn't. But the rest of this discussion should probably continue in the subsection below. Erpert blah, blah, blah... 23:38, 31 August 2016 (UTC)
• Support This is sorely needed. The spirit of SNGs is to identify people who have a certain enduring notability as well create a consistent standard. The problem with PORNBIO is that the standard of inclusion is way too low. (Actually SPORTS is too low as well). This essentially results in Wikipedia becoming a directory, which is precisely what we are not supposed to be per WP:NOTDIR. The problem with using just about any industry award is the same problem with using trade magazines for companies: it is easier to be featured in these sources. --Lemongirl942 (talk) 13:52, 1 September 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose. The SNG for porn actors is extremely restrictive by comparison to, for example, almost all the SNGs in WP:Notability (sports), and is routinely used to delete articles that get hundreds or even over a thousand views per day. BLP violating material should be removed, and is, routinely. It is obviously not necessary to restrict the SNG further in order to prevent BLP violations. --Sammy1339 (talk) 03:34, 1 September 2016 (UTC)

Additionally, the wording is clearly designed in a way to eliminate the great majority of pornstar articles, as the OP well knows that the individual categories are never the subject of "meaningful discussion" in mainstream RS, although the award ceremonies as a whole are. --Sammy1339 (talk) 03:42, 1 September 2016 (UTC)

Spartaz ^Humbug!

12:39, 4 September 2016 (UTC)

Page views are not part of content policies or notability guidelines, especially when considering the high standards required by BLP. Refering to another SNG is

WP:PROMO. ---Steve Quinn (talk

)

OCE doesn't apply here because as I stated above, OCE refers to articles, not guidelines. Erpert ^{blah, blah, blah...} 16:34, 4 September 2016 (UTC)

• Strong support in principle. For all the dramah-tization by opponents of the proposal, the key arguments remain unrefuted, barely even addressed. The PORNBIO SNG standards have resulted in the maintenance of many articles for subjects who fail the GNG. Experience has made it clear that the PORNBIO criteria, particularly those relating to porn-specific awards, are not correlated with the level of independent, reliable coverage required to satisfy our notability standards and guidelines. And PORNBIO standards are not simply inconsistent with our notability guidelines, they have proved incompatible with fundamental elements of
  WP:BLP, which is an important policy that can't be overridden by a local consensus on a narrow, sensitive subject area. The Big Bad Wolfowitz (aka Hullaballoo). Treated like dirt by administrators since 2006. (talk
  ) 12:03, 2 September 2016 (UTC)
• Strong support at least the concept. SNG standards here are far too low. Montanabw^(talk) 20:37, 2 September 2016 (UTC)
• Support. I agree with those who have said that Wikipedia is turning into a directory. An SNG should not allow people to create articles that violate BLP. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 01:17, 6 September 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose - per arguments by MShabazz. Subtropical-man talk
  (en-2) 06:15, 6 September 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose I'm sorry for not explaining my opinion more thoroughly. I would like to but I'm not a native English speaker and will try to say the most important things. Spartaz' wording is quite vague and doesn't really precise anything. Indeed it's pretty much impossible to be fullfilled. Award categories (from wichever type of an award in the world) are pretty much never "meaningful[ly] discuss[ed] in independent reliable secondary sources". That's why award articles are usually pretty boring to read. Meaning that even the highest honours a pornographic actor could get would be discussed meters long I can't see any effective improvement. Also an AfD should be about the sources of the discussed biography, not about those of an award. --SamWinchester000 (talk) 01:08, 7 September 2016 (UTC)

• "Award categories (from whichever type of an award in the world) are pretty much never "meaningful[ly] discuss[ed] in independent reliable secondary sources"

This is indeed the heart of the matter. The PORN industry has created many non-notable awards, and PORNBIO references them, and seeks to transfer notability from non-notable awards. And the main point is that we are talking about porn bios for which there aren't sources for the biography except for the reports that the person has been nominated for or won the non-notable award. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 01:27, 7 September 2016 (UTC)

You won't find such dreamed up single-category sources for most national film (I didn't only mean pornography!) awards – just as someone stated above after searching for an Italian film award. I can't find independent sources either, when searching for a list of Best Films from the

Deutscher Filmpreis, only five primary sources from Deutscher Filmpreis/Deutsche Filmakademie and two hits from German Wikipedia. That just makes no sense and has nothing to do with pornography. --SamWinchester000 (talk

) 19:22, 7 September 2016 (UTC)

The

Deutscher Filmpreis has these 2000 potential book sources, for a start. Do you claim that any pornography awards are comparable? 86.17.222.157 (talk

) 20:47, 7 September 2016 (UTC)

Didn't we talk about single categories? I meant the "Bester Film" category, the oldest category given since 1951, and there is nothing substantial for that. Looking at single award categories just makes no sense. --SamWinchester000 (talk) 22:10, 7 September 2016 (UTC)

Accordingly, if winning or being nominated for a

Deutscher Filmpreis award is the *only* claim to fame, and did't even come with independent coverage of winning or being nominated, then there is insufficient indication that a stand alone biography is warranted. Wikipedia is not a directory of names who won or were nominated for awards. That is not encyclopedic coverage. Wikipedia covers things already covered by others. Time and time again we see that PORNBIO indicates presumed notability for a living person, and is wrong. --SmokeyJoe (talk

) 23:26, 7 September 2016 (UTC)

OK then, lets look for news sources covering that specific category. The list of results starts with

Tagesspiegel and goes on to include many major non-specialist media outlets. Can you give evidence for equivalent coverage of any specific category of a porn award? 86.17.222.157 (talk

) 14:19, 8 September 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose As it stands the proposed new language to me seem more restrictive than ANYBIO. Remember what it states at the start of the Additional Criteria section: "People are likely to be notable if they meet any of the following standards" (emphasis added mine). That means the requirements of PORNBIO must be in line with the requirements of ANYBIO. The ANYBIO requirement states that the person needs to have won "a well-known and significant award or honor". The PORNBIO language introduces a requirement that the award itself be discussed - that's absent from ANYBIO. And as a side note, I quite agree with a lot of what Cavarrone says about how NFOOTY and NCRICKET allows creation of articles about athletes merely because they appear briefly in one solitary game. Tabercil (talk) 02:57, 8 September 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose - The current guidelines are reasonable and already fairly exclusive. I've read most of this thread. I haven't been convinced that articles that are included in the current criteria which would be disallowed under the new criteria violate the
  not directory arguments even less compelling. I'm not even going to address the less common support rationales above, which is giving them their due weight.— Godsy ^(TALK_CONT
  ) 08:41, 15 September 2016 (UTC)
• Support. As a matter of actual fact, SNGs (Special Notability Guidelines) are taken to trump the
  WP:GNG -- for professional athletes, politicians, etc. -- and PORNBIO, taken this way, has the effect of adding in bios of people who don't meet the GNG. And for what -- for porn actors? Porn actors are peripheral to encyclopedic knowledge. If we must be saying "let's have in some class of people who don't meet the GNG", how about low-visibility regular actors? Businessmen? Patent holders? Church officials? Why are porn actors so special that we say "Well, here is a class of people who really need special consideration. Their artistic merits and personal impact on life on earth is such that we need to make an exception, reach deep below the depths of normal notability to preserve biographies of them for future generations to ponder over". Even the current proposal is to generous IMO. Let porn actors be put under WP:ACTOR. But support the proposal as at least an improvement. Herostratus (talk
  ) 14:30, 18 September 2016 (UTC)
  • I'd instead suggest proposing special notability guidelines for "[less known] actors, businessmen, patent holders, and church officials", if you feel it is necessary for reasonable coverage of those groups, so we can be more inclusive overall, not less. I'd also argue that it is especially necessary to go outside of the general notability guideline for those in the pornography industry, because what they do is considered taboo, hence their work is less likely to be covered by the majority of mainstream sources than the work of others.— Godsy ^(TALK_CONT) 01:47, 19 September 2016 (UTC)
• Comment -
  Spartaz I changed the layout of your proposal to include the old text. I thought this would be an improvement to the proposal. Do you mind? Blue Rasberry (talk)
  12:19, 26 September 2016 (UTC)
• Support change The current criteria for "Has been featured multiple times in notable mainstream media." seems to suggest that anyone featured in porn media who also is featured in mainstream media would get a lowered bar for judging their notability. This seems strange to me, and I have an example where it plays out in an odd way. At Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Lindsay_Mills there is a deletion discussion about a burlesque performer who does dance and acrobatics. If this policy applies to people who are featured in video and photographic erotic, then this policy should apply to circus performers when major media sources comment on their performance being sexual. It is relatively difficult for a porn performer to be featured in mainstream media, but much more common for other workers in erotic performance. While I do think that Mills passes GNG, I also think that pornbio policy should defer to GNG rather than lower the bar for what sorts of reliable sources are expect.

I think "pornbio" policy should somehow be made more inclusive to apply to all sorts of performers, models, and actors when sources present the work as sexualized. The original point of this policy was to reinforce the idea that Wikipedia is a summary of what reliable, reputable, published sources say even if other people find the subject of the material to be distasteful. The proposed changes would be more clear in more cases. I still think that it is problematic that the AVN or XRCO hall of fame are favored as authorities when these organizations have a bias to promote media production with bias for gender, race, ethnicity, country of origin, and other restrictions which Wikipedia seeks to minimize. Blue Rasberry (talk) 12:31, 26 September 2016 (UTC)

Question: I don't get how the revised guideline actually adds any categories above GNG itself. The industry awards or "hall of fame" listings should all imply GNG-grade sources are available to begin with. I honestly don't get the point of having special novelty guidelines for everything ... I'm expecting to see ones for notable show dogs and hot air balloons. And, given some justification for BLP concerns that would militate against extra inclusions, I don't see why some special guideline is needed for porn actors if we can get by without a special guideline for show dogs. Now that said, I nonetheless am very concerned by the blanket rejection of "porn industry sources" as being reliable sources. Provided they have an editorial process - and I'd think they would, as I imagine they have a few legal issues to watch out for - there's no reason to treat them differently than any other. Alternatively, is there no broader specialty guideline on actors or performers that this could be merged into? For example, why not just list porn stars with the other "entertainers" in the section above? It just seems weird that Wikipedia is writing special code for this. Wnt (talk) 23:22, 30 September 2016 (UTC)

Tweaking the PORNBIO proposal

• I'd like to see merely being nominated for an award sufficient to justify inclusion. —Locke Cole • t • c 02:31, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
  • That ship has sailed, we are not expanding PORNBIO. We already had that discussion.
    Spartaz ^Humbug!
    06:05, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
• OK, since you disagree that there is a consensus, I have asked for a panel of independent admins to assess this discussion. I hope you will agree to abide by the outcome. See
  Spartaz ^Humbug!
  06:09, 29 August 2016 (UTC)

Have you looked at how many of these !votes show that they understand the proposal?  Unscintillating (talk) 02:15, 30 August 2016 (UTC)

@Unscintillating:, I don't understand your point. Spartaz asked for an opinion whether there is a consensus here. From the timestamp on the comments alone, I see an ongoing discussion; if there was a consensus, people would not be continuing to discuss this proposal. As a further datum, I noted the number of !votes to show that opinions were clearly divided. Now if the number of !votes were to support or oppose this were clearly on one side or the other -- say 25 support to 11 oppose or 14 support to 30 oppose (roughly 2-to-1) -- one could argue that there is a consensus, & that the losing side was simply filibustering the obvious. But to come to that conclusion, one would need more closely at the discussion -- but there is no consensus, so to do so is unnecessary.

And as for "understand the proposal" ... that is a loaded question. The discussion is about what this proposal means, & how it will affect Notability policy, & I see part of the disagreement here about what the proposal means. Some argue it will not change the current policy significantly, some that it will; there isn't even a consensus about that. So the only solution I see is ... more discussion. It may not be the best choice, but it will do the least harm.

And lastly, Wikipedia's coverage of porn is a contentious & controversial issue. Anyone interested in how porn is covered will need to accept that it will be unusual for any change in policy to be accepted in a week's time. I expect this will drag on much longer, with tempers fraying on all sides. Better that everyone interested discuss the matter here, & hope that all parties remain civil & find some common ground, than someone declares a consensus too early, make people resentful & angry, & risk losing volunteers. Especially when we're having problems holding on to veteran editors as it is. -- llywrch (talk) 18:22, 30 August 2016 (UTC)

The thing is, users that appear to be wholly anti-pornography are an interesting sort, as they try to tighten the PORNBIO guideline literally every year. Now, I personally am a fan of porn, but I don't think any porn biography (or any other article) should be kept if it isn't notable; in fact, I've actually started a few AfDs on porn stars ([20] [21]). However...when it has been proven that the porn stars indeed pass Wikipedia's notability standards, that's when the antis suddenly want to tighten the guideline. In addition, the "tempers fraying" that you suggested generally come from the antis in the form of insults; and frankly, the insults seem to be more about the people defending the actors rather than the actors themselves. Now, I don't remember ever crossing your path, but that's actually a good thing; neutral users giving their input on the situation is exactly what is needed to keep things balanced.

Finally, I agree with everyone who suggested that PORNBIO shouldn't be tightened while other SNGs aren't. But the one thing I would add to PORNBIO is that a porn actor's notability should mainly come into question if pornography is all s/he is known for. Erpert ^{blah, blah, blah...} 22:09, 30 August 2016 (UTC)

• Comment We should require all Pornbio article to demonstrate coverage of the subject in depth in reliable 3rd party sources, no exceptions at all. We should instead revise these criteria to emphasize that pornographic works themselves can not be used as such sources, nor can press releases, and we should have a special warning that the nature of the pornographic industry is that it generates lots of the later, but this press release fog should not be confused for actual reliable sources.John Pack Lambert (talk) 02:06, 2 September 2016 (UTC)
  • Comment. No. That would add extra requirements which don't exist in other fields. In effect it would make the WP:PORNBIO requirements even stricter than the general notability guidelines and seems purely designed to literally erase the field. If such tight notability criteria doesn't exist in other fields like sport, then it shouldn't be applied to WP:PORNBIO either. Then they correct way should be the amend the general notability guidelines so it applies to all biography field, instead of targeting a specific biography type. -- fdewaele, 2 September 2016, 10:47 CET.
    • Reply. Those aren't "extra" requirements. The standards just make clear that common strategies used to evade GNG standards in porn performer bios aren't legitimate. In no other field do we accept bios and BLPs based on PR copy, with no other significant evidence of notability. The Big Bad Wolfowitz (aka Hullaballoo). Treated like dirt by administrators since 2006. (talk) 10:34, 2 September 2016 (UTC)
      • I agree with fdewaele that those are indeed extra requirements—actually, I agree with everything s/he said. And I'm against the idea of a "special warning", because the notion that most of the porn actors' bios are fueled by press releases is something that has been often stated (usually by "delete" !voters in AfDs), but never actually proven. (And even if it were true, such sources "may be acceptable depending on the context", says
        WP:NEWSORG.) Erpert ^{blah, blah, blah...}
        00:27, 3 September 2016 (UTC)
• Comment: GNG aways trumps any SNG, though not all participants at AfD understand that. For example, a person who fails NACTOR might still be notable under
  WP:BASIC due to widespread coverage of them for other things in addition to their acting. Same here. PORNBIO should not be a mechanism to allow paid-PR articles about people of dubious notability, no different than NPOL or corporate CEO puff pieces, and so on. Montanabw^(talk)
  20:37, 2 September 2016 (UTC)
• I encourage anyone on either side of the issue of awards to take part in this discussion. Erpert ^{blah, blah, blah...} 17:46, 3 September 2016 (UTC)

• That discussion is meaningless before this one is resolved, and a clear case of of
  forum shopping to try to get a decision made in a place where editors who don't share your obsession interest are unlikely to go. Wikiprojects don't get to override decisions made by the general community. 86.17.222.157 (talk
  ) 21:20, 3 September 2016 (UTC)

• This discussion is about changing PORNBIO in general; that discussion is about determining the notability of certain awards. Not the same topic, so not forum shopping; sorry. (And you need to be careful about how you use the word "obsession".) Erpert blah, blah, blah... 16:17, 4 September 2016 (UTC)

• I have replaced the word "obsession". I had thought that you had said somewhere that you were proud of having such an obsession, but maybe I was wrong. That discussion is relevant to this one, because the proposed wording here means that awards themselves must, at a minimum, be notable in order to confer notability on an actor. If any local consensus by the wikiproject concludes that junk awards are notable then it's pretty obvious that people will use them to support BLP-defying articles about actors. Why not just accept that Wikipedia is finally growing up in regard to some of the topics that have previously been awarded immunity from core policies (although not to all)? 86.17.222.157 (talk) 19:00, 4 September 2016 (UTC)

• Notability is never conferred.  Unscintillating (talk) 20:37, 4 September 2016 (UTC)

• In addition, 86, that discussion may be relevant to this one to an extent, but again, it isn't the same topic. (BTW, the fact that you refer to pornography-related awards as "junk awards" makes me wonder whether you really can be neutral about all this.) Erpert ^{blah, blah, blah...} 22:28, 5 September 2016 (UTC)

• I didn't say that all pornography-related awards are junk, but many are, and history has shown that guidelines drawn up by the pornography wikiproject have often been out of kilter with consensus by the wider community, so there is a real danger that any guidelines for porn award notability would be drawn up there to include the junk awards. 86.17.222.157 (talk) 15:03, 6 September 2016 (UTC)

• Many are? That's really your own opinion. Erpert ^{blah, blah, blah...} 22:28, 10 September 2016 (UTC)

Alternate paths to define Wikipedia notability

The text below is extracted from the lede of

Analysis.  WP:N has one requirement, that a topic be "worthy of notice".  Paths to define:

1. Meet the general notability guideline (GNG).
2. Satisfy one of the criteria in one of the subject-specific guidelines (SNGs).
3. Satisfy other guidelines that argue directly to the requirement.  Such may come from the subject-specific notability essays, the WP:N nutshell, the fundamental principles
   WP:5P, and the explanatory supplement "common outcomes"
   .

Unscintillating (talk) 17:05, 3 September 2016 (UTC)

If these "paths to define" are what you're proposing be added to the guideline, then you should probably post something at

WP:BIO as a whole rather than just an SNG. Erpert ^{blah, blah, blah...}

17:45, 3 September 2016 (UTC)

This is not a proposal, it is a quote with analysis.  In case of differences between the analysis and the blue, the blue is from the guideline.  We are expecting some closing administrators here who may not have seen WP:N recently, so I wanted to get a direct quote on the record.  Unscintillating (talk) 20:35, 3 September 2016 (UTC)

• This is just a distraction to dilute the discussion because you are losing the actual issue above.
  Spartaz ^Humbug!
  12:29, 4 September 2016 (UTC)

• I don't see this as a distraction; this is the talk page for all of
  WP:BIO, not just PORNBIO. What it looks like is that Unscintillating is driving the point home that all SNGs should have the same consideration, which I still agree with. Erpert ^{blah, blah, blah...}
  16:22, 4 September 2016 (UTC)
• (edit conflict)So at one point above Spartaz is demanding that I discuss policy.  Now Spartaz is complaining that I am talking about policy, and that such talk is a distraction that interferes with him "winning".  Unscintillating (talk) 19:07, 4 September 2016 (UTC)

• I really don't get what you are driving at. Of course notability can be demonstrated by means of secondary notability guidelines, but that doesn't mean that we can't come to a consensus decision to change one of those guidelines. And, whatever secondary notability guidelines might say, articles have to comply with
  WP:BLP by having such a source actually cited. There is no point in having any guideline that conflicts with such fundamental policies, because those policies should always prevail in decisions about deletion. 86.17.222.157 (talk
  ) 18:46, 4 September 2016 (UTC)

• The short answer is that I'm not driving at anything other than that this is how we define "notability", and that beliefs about the relationship between GNG, SNGs, and the other guidelines should conform to what is stated.  Unscintillating (talk) 20:27, 4 September 2016 (UTC)
• A longer answer is that closing administrators have a duty to discard !votes when not policy based.  From Wikipedia:Closing discussions,

Take your post here, your last sentence uses the word "guideline" which in the context means WP:N.  You say, "There is no point in having any guideline that conflicts with such fundamental policies..."  In the context, by "fundamental policies" you have just cited WP:V and WP:BLP.  So your !vote, or at least what you said in this post, is based on the premise that a conflict exists between our notability guidelines and our

Notability is a property of a subject and not of a Wikipedia article.)  Content policies apply to the articles, not the evidence used to determine notability.  So IMO a closing administrator should (I say should because I think that they tend to prefer to count !votes and not discuss the taking down of !votes) discount your !vote because your post is confounding notability with a content policy.  Unscintillating (talk

) 20:27, 4 September 2016 (UTC)

You are just

digging yourself deeper here. The point of guidelines is that they are guide to how to implement policy, so no guideline is valid if it conflicts with policy. 86.17.222.157 (talk

) 20:42, 4 September 2016 (UTC)

A topic can be Wikipedia notable and not have an article, which is proof that you cannot establish the theoretical possibility of a conflict between WP:N and WP:V.  Unscintillating (talk) 02:02, 5 September 2016 (UTC)

An utterly irrelevant statement is not proof of anything. 86.17.222.157 (talk) 07:10, 5 September 2016 (UTC

Verifiability, and its relationship to other core content policies, namely the requirement for the neutral point of view and the ban on original research. Verifiability requires that we build articles by summarizing what reliable third party (independent) sources say about a topic. I will never recommend deletion of an article about a topic that, in my judgment, meets that standard. Useful notability guidelines are tools for determining whether a given topic is highly likely to comply with those core content policies, with adequate research. Time and time again, biographies of porn performers created in a good faith effort guided by PORNBIO are seen to fail the core content policies, and end up being deleted. This is strong evidence, in my view, that PORNBIO in its current form is a failed SNG which must be tightened up. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it

07:46, 7 September 2016 (UTC)

• Comment -- I would encourage participants of the discussion to watch list Wikipedia:WikiProject Pornography/Deletion, as often article-specific discussions touch on the application of SNG & GNG. K.e.coffman (talk) 07:59, 5 September 2016 (UTC)
• The way to fix most of the various problems with porn on Wikipedia will be to forcibly deactivate Wikiproject Porncanvassing, so that we can conduct clean and untainted AfDs of pornstars.—S Marshall T/C 20:09, 12 September 2016 (UTC)
  • You're right! Every WikiProject should have its own deletion sorting board and article alerts except WikiProject Pornography Porncanvassing! And those damn Muslims and Jews! — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 00:52, 13 September 2016 (UTC)
    • Yes, that's it! Wanting to rein in inappropriate biographies of porn stars is exactly like antisemitism!—S Marshall T/C 20:06, 22 September 2016 (UTC)
      • I'm sorry, the adults were talking. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 02:22, 24 September 2016 (UTC)
        • Don't you realise just how childish such a comment is, the total opposite of anything anyone capable of behaving like an adult would say? 86.17.222.157 (talk) 19:49, 25 September 2016 (UTC)
• Comment. We need a wider discussion on what makes awards notable. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 02:03, 13 September 2016 (UTC)

• How about a WP:N compliant article on the award? If multiple biographies cite winning the award as a claim to notability, sourcing and writing the award article would be easy. Borderline cases would be where the award is treated as its own level two section. Anything less, no, it is not notable.

WP:NOTDIRECTORY non-compliance. --SmokeyJoe (talk

) 02:13, 13 September 2016 (UTC)

You'll get the Prose on

this article. --SamWinchester000 (talk

) 04:08, 13 September 2016 (UTC)

Yes, that's a good start, but the article is not for a single award. Prosify some of the specific awards and they will get more respect. At the moment, a reader of Wikipedia can only assume no one has ever cared to comment on the individual awards. This should be done before creating stubby BLPs. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 04:57, 13 September 2016 (UTC)

It's unclear why alternate ways are needed when

WP:GNG already exists. K.e.coffman (talk

) 04:14, 13 September 2016 (UTC)

An extant article is an excellent prima facie case that the topic meets Wikipedia-notability standards. The

WP:GNG is not a trivial test to apply, it generally takes a full AfD discussion to demonstrate agreement one way or the other. If the specific award *is* notable, then Wikipedia *should* have an article on it. An award article should come before BLPs depending on the award. --SmokeyJoe (talk

) 04:57, 13 September 2016 (UTC)

The reason is that a body of AfD discussions have demonstrated that certain classes of people are invariably notable. The guidelines are therefore more like summaries of AfD cases. They don't supplant WP:GNG, they merely note the result of previous AfDs. This is to save the hassle of recurring AfDs on the same subjects. It also signals in advance to the article creator as to whether an article subject is likely to be notable, thereby saving effort. Hawkeye7 (talk) 22:55, 25 September 2016 (UTC)

Notability of an award is certainly a necessary condition for recipients to be considered notable on its basis, but it is not a sufficient condition. I received a Blue Peter badge, a very notable award, nearly half a century ago, but that doesn't make me notable. 86.17.222.157 (talk) 19:55, 25 September 2016 (UTC)

That's because there is a difference between the notability of an award, and the notability accorded by receiving it. Frequently the most common awards are the most notable. Hawkeye7 (talk) 22:55, 25 September 2016 (UTC)

It's because notability isn't inherited, but even if it is (maybe "presumed notability" is inheritable), the inheritance is divided by the number of recipients. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 03:21, 26 September 2016 (UTC)