Wikipedia talk:Wikipedia Signpost/2015-04-08/Op-ed

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• I am not paid for my Wikipedia editing (who would want to pay me anyway?) yet a search of my talkpage brought up the term G11 (
  gender discrimination lawsuit and was supported by no less than 9 references from reliable sources. Another article
  on the same topic is now languishing in wp:AFD.

Wikipedia deletion processes are drowning in frivolous nominations for deletion: is it a surprise that those who know how to navigate this convoluted system are thriving, while good faith contributors are leaving Wikipedia? Ottawahitech (talk) 18:59, 9 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

You are part of the problem. I can't see the content of Turbotax database knows your secret, but just the title suggests it's very unlikely to be an encyclopedic topic. As another editor commented on your talk page "One only has to look at the multiplicity of notices ... from many other editors for your inappropriate and/or completely unreferenced articles to see that the problem [is] your own approach to creating articles here.". DexDor ^(talk) 06:01, 10 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Lets agree to disagree that my contributions to Wikipedia are less valuable than yours. The point I am trying to make is that if all good faith contributors are chased out of Wikipedia there will be no one left to contribute content that brings readers here, and no one left to fix errors. Ottawahitech (talk) 18:34, 11 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Ottawahitech: You clearly create many articles of value, and are a valuable member of our community. At the same time, I think you also need to pay closer attention to the notability criteria. Some articles, through not many, that are part of the problem I describe here have been created by more experienced editors who should (by now, at least), know better. A few of my own articles have been deleted from the projects (biographies, mainly). It happens to all of us. But if you get a series of deletion notices, it does usually mean one has to re-examine some of one's writings. I agree it could be handled better - if we had more volunteers. Sadly, we have too few, and so we are templating everyone. A lesser evil, I am afraid (to not policing the project at all). --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 02:44, 13 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for soothing my ego, Piotrus, but the point I am trying to make is if all good faith contributors are chased out of Wikipedia there will be no one … left to fix errors. You may feel it is OK to have SOME of your contributions deleted, but there are/were thousands of wannabe editors who feel/felt differently. This is why we lack volunteers , IMHO. Ottawahitech (talk) 13:21, 13 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I think deleting newewbies' articles is not the problem, it's how it is done: with little explanation other than a boilerplate tamplate. And yes, perhaps a better, more friendly idea would be to move deleted newbies contribution back to their sandboxes...? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 02:23, 14 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that moving rejected articles back to the user's sandbox would be much less offputting than outright deletion. Deleted material can always be recovered, but newbies don't know that, and it's very discouraging to have one's

WP:AGF efforts deleted, even if it's for a good reason. The spammers wouldn't be encouraged by this kinder, gentler policy, since they know the tricks of resurrecting material anyway (and they probably kept backup copies just in case). "Never attribute to malevolence that which can be explained by pure incompetence." Reify-tech (talk) 17:56, 14 April 2015 (UTC)[reply

]

• Artspam? Worst. Neologism. Ever. Only on Wikipedia do we have people coining words and phrases loaded with ambiguity. Our job as knowledge workers is to eliminate ambiguity, not encourage it. Viriditas (talk) 03:11, 10 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Agree, when I first saw "artspam" I assumed it was something to do with art. The op-ed really should be reviewed by a critical editor before going live (I've just corrected several other problems in it). DexDor ^(talk) 06:01, 10 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

No offense Dex but this is hardly cause for substantial criticism. ResMar 06:06, 10 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I am an editor who spends considerable time working on biographies about artists, and I object deeply to the term "artspam". I am also an editor who has written and expanded a number of articles about what I sincerely believe to be notable small businesses. I have never, ever been paid a penny for such writing, nor the smallest denomination of currency in Poland or South Korea. I readily concede that we have a problem with paid editing, but must oppose any blunderbuss response that tars articles about artists, or about businesses. I especially object to unjustified blanket criticism of good faith editors working in such topic areas. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 06:17, 10 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

+1, Cullen; well said. Piotr, I think the word you're looking for is "spam". Ironholds (talk) 12:52, 10 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I just used the established term from

WP:ADMASQ but I found it less clear; through I was also aware of the "Art" being confusing. If you can suggest any other term that's better, do let me know. I considered ADSPAM, MASQAD and MASQSPAM, too, through I was wary of creating a new neologism. But, as I note in the op-ed, there is certainly a good amount of art-spam too. I am less interested in going after hungry artists wannabes or vanity-seekers than after yellow pages paid editors ilk, but... --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 00:57, 11 April 2015 (UTC)[reply

]

Piotrus, "art" is not a commonly used abbreviation for the word "article", so "artspam" should not be used at all. You say that it was an "established" term, but actually, it isn't used anywhere. An editor created the redirect as a shortcut, but that's the only known usage. The shortcut redirect should be sent to deletion and the shortcut should be removed from the content guideline. I've seen this kind of thing happen many times on Wikipedia. We tend to attract "unique" individuals who often invent esoteric words and phrases that 99% of people wouldn't recognize or understand. User:Eddie_Segoura's creation of the word "exicornt" comes immediately to mind; there's probably a dozen or so other examples that have slipped under the radar and into our guidelines and policies. You said yourself that you found it confusing, so I'm curious why you used it in the first place. It would help greatly if people like yourself would question things a bit more rather than accept them at face value. If something is confusing to you, that's a red flag you should pay attention to, as there's a greater possibility that others will find it confusing as well. Viriditas (talk) 03:25, 11 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Viriditas: As I said above: I used it because I could think of nothing better, and I was told that just using spam was also confusing. And, to be frank, such a confusion (about art) may be good - perhaps some of our readers here wouldn't have came at all if not for being curious about the term in the first place. But yes, I am open to developing a new, better term. On the final note (better late than never), I'll ping the creator of the ARTSPAM redirect, User:Ukexpat. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 02:47, 13 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

When I created the

WP:ARTICLESPAM, because I am lazy. If the redirect is considered unhelpful, I would have no objection to its deletion.--ukexpat (talk) 14:49, 16 April 2015 (UTC)[reply

]

I just want to add my voice to this- though I do think that this is a solid article drawing attention to a real problem (one I've been peripherally aware of for a little while, but have done nothing substantial about), "artspam" is is a poor term. I wondered whether you were talking about small placeholder articles for individual works of art/episodes/songs/albums/etc from the title, and was intrigued to see what was said. On a more constructive note, I do think you've prompted me to cast a more critical eye on these kinds of articles. Josh Milburn (talk) 10:37, 13 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

"Artspam" is a terrible neologism, since it misleads readers (including me) into thinking that it concerns art, but it's really about articles. Why don't you just call it "spam articles" or something like that? However, I agree with you overall concern about spam articles. I don't go looking for them, but if I stumble across them, I tag them or send them to AfD. Perhaps more thought needs to be given to incentives and plugging gaping holes, to ease the burden on the bilge pumping and cleanout crew. You have my sympathies and respect. Reify-tech (talk) 17:56, 14 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• I strongly agree with Viriditas and Cullen. What really disturbed me about this was the thought there were subjects or images that no one cares about? Seriously? Encyclopedic value takes a back seat to judgment calls based on point of view. Well OK then...--Mark Miller (talk) 20:26, 15 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• Thanks Piotr for this op-ed. In the last year I also spent more time on deleting spam, vandalism and unencyclopaedic content than adding content. I think is time to provide more incentives for quality improvement than simple additions. The
  main page should indicate the number of quality articles, not simply that of total articles, for example like this mock-up. Welcome templates shouldn't invite new editors to start new articles but to improve existing ones. Perhaps the WikiCup should value cleanup work, such as AfDs, etc. -ELEKHH^T 07:06, 10 April 2015 (UTC)[reply
  ]

Interesting idea @Elekhh:. May I suggest slotting those stats in the blank area between the logo and the category area, instead of replacing the category area outright? Maury Markowitz (talk) 12:38, 10 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• AQ problem is also a covert refusal to get to the bottom. Quite often when I nominate articles with a rationale like advertising or spam, the articles are in fact protected. Most of the time comments appear like "yes, this article is promotional, but this can be fixed by normal editing". But after closure, nothing happens and the spam stays where it was. This trend is slowly undermining the no advertising policy of Wikipedia. The Banner talk 10:39, 10 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• I think we should continue going tough on such junk, Piotrus does a good job. Having spamish articles may also have a depressing effect on genuine contributors. Brandmeister^talk 11:04, 10 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• After adding comments to support an AfD on some of these spam articles, I've seen them ultimately remain. The AfD discussions are left open another seven days to obtain more consensus and ultimately the article stays for "no consensus". It somewhat turned me off to even bothering with AfD. I don't know what the answer is except to perhaps allow deletion if there is no solid consensus for the aricle to remain. Blue Riband► 11:43, 10 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• A few observations:
  • The rate at which spam is added to Wikipedia is be proportional to the spam that's already there -- we've all heard the OTHERSTUFFEXISTS justification for creating articles on non-notable companies and products. This means the amount of spam grows exponentially as a function of time.
  • Too much time is wasted dealing with COI users who aren't here to build the encyclopedia. A subset of these editors are being paid, some by the hour, to trash the encyclopedia with their promotional garbage and waste your time. Editors who aren't here to improve Wikipedia need to be removed from the project expeditiously. I got sick of being Captain Obvious, so I made myself this page to aid this task.
• This oped is long overdue, but the fact that this problem has to be explicitly pointed out is highly concerning. MER-C 12:21, 10 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • This is a very scary observation, User:MER-C, sadly I can't disagree with it. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 01:15, 11 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• Thanks for a very important reminder. Every marketer out there knows that a WP article, appearing at the top of unpaid search-engine results, gives whatever they are selling an air of legitimacy (regardless of merit). Miniapolis 13:55, 10 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• Enough is indeed enough. We have to get an efficient way to stop this adcruft (my alternative word for artspam). I'm afraid just going through the 2-3% of our articles that have this problem and nominating them for AfD won't do it - it just takes too long. One recent example was a wanabe publishing company. They hadn't published anything yet but intended to publish 3 books that had previously been published by others. It took three weeks to get that article deleted! We do have the rules to stop this. Our policy
  WP:NOT prohibits marketing, promotion, PR, and advertising. The Terms of Use prohibit undeclared paid editing (and almost none of these folks declare their paid status). New rules (e.g. prohibiting admins like User:Wifione
  from paid editing) are almost impossible to add, especially if we consider that there will be opposition from self-interested editors. Perhaps the WMF can do something similar to what they did when the funding of chapters became chaotic and a constant source of controversy, get input, form a committee (in that case the FDC), and then do something about it. I don't think volunteer editors alone can fight well-financed advertisers.

The one thing we know for sure is that this problem will not go away by itself. There's a new scandal every 3-6 months on related topics Smallbones_(smalltalk) 15:56, 10 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Out of curiosity, since Wifione was banned for conflict of interest, did he/she participate in an AfD discussions? I'd say that would justify relisting those articles. -- llywrch (talk) 23:00, 10 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Part of the blame lies with the

boldly enforce the agreed standards and simply delete this type of rubbish. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 09:52, 16 April 2015 (UTC)[reply

]

• Just spent a "happy" 40 min or so on one of these spamticles (another alternative :-),
  RS, etc., it'll cost you more time than the spammers spent to write the darn thing... I see no real solution to all this. We have more and more articles and fewer and fewer admins and editors, the problem is only going to get worse. I recently saw somebody advocating tightening our notability guidelines (sorry, can't remember who/where...) In theory, that's a solution, as it would reduce the number of articles to maintain and we could concentrate on the really important stuff. However, I don't think it very likely that we'll ever get a consensus in favor of tightening the notability criteria... --Randykitty (talk) 17:22, 10 April 2015 (UTC)[reply
  ]
  • @Randykitty: Perhaps you mean the discussion I started at Wikipedia_talk:Notability_(organizations_and_companies)#Common_invalid_.22keep.22_arguments_for_commercial_organizations, which interestingly seems to be leaning to making it more inclusive. Through sadly, it seems the consensus is to make it more inclusive for commercial organizations, and don't change anything for the non-commercial ones (Wikipedia_talk:Notability_(organizations_and_companies)#Non-commercial_organizations). Sigh. Anyway, you do point out to a major issue: it often takes more to analyze and prepare an AfD report than it takes to write an article for some of those entries. And compounding this problem is that few non-experts in field can truly know if a given niche publication is a reliable source, or a PR "we will publish anything" outlet masquerading at one. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 01:15, 11 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• Davis Graham & Stubbs is a major Denver law firm. Why no one has created an article I don't know but using it as an example grates. There is constant press coverage. The only significance it has is that there are articles we should have but don't. User:Fred Bauder Talk 08:47, 10 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• Yes, "enough it enough". It is about time we stopped deleting stubby articles on notable subjects like Davis Graham & Stubbs - a 100 year old law firm which is a leader in its region, with alumni that include a US Supreme Court judge and a US senator and the Governor of Colorado - and tried to expand them instead. Ferma (talk) 18:08, 10 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

This is not the place to discuss specific articles; still: please read

WP:NOTINHERITED. --Randykitty (talk) 18:16, 10 April 2015 (UTC)[reply

]

Indeed. Which is why the rankings from the likes of

Faegre Baker Daniels and Holland & Hart. Ferma (talk) 18:41, 10 April 2015 (UTC)[reply

]

Can we get back to the discussion of the Op-Ed please? And leave the discussion regarding the notability status of specific articles to the appropriate forum? Blue Riband► 19:08, 10 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

No, these are all helpful comments and specific examples like this help to lend insights to the discussion. The point is that amateur editors without expertise in every topic area cannot always be expected to distinguish the stub of a notable firm which should be kept and worked on from a less notable firm whose article appears to be better developed and referenced. We don't want to punish the firm who doesn't spam by deleting a good-faith stub about them which may have been created by a disinterested editor who may not have the time or motivation to finish their stub, and is hoping someone else will do it. Can better tools for identifying spam be developed? Then we also have the issue of pop-culture cruft created by good-faith editors who want to document every episode of a TV series in detail. The producers don't have to pay for that; we have volunteers who willingly do it. What is considered to be spam varies by the eyes of the beholder. Wbm1058 (talk) 22:10, 10 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I agree— we don't want to punish the firm who doesn't spam… As DGG writes later …let us not fool ourselves, Like It/Don't Like It is the basis of most afd discussions, though anyone with experience here knows how to word it otherwise Ottawahitech (talk) 18:30, 11 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

WP:LAW, where I asked if we have any experts to help draft criteria for notability of law firms. Sadly, so far no expert has volunteered to join me and DC there. But please keep our policies in mind. Having notable employees does not matter. Neither does being the biggest in a city or province of. Now, if either generated significant, in depth coverage - great, add sources and we are done. For the record, I didn't see such sources for this article (our policies specifically require, by the way, non regional sources, co a city newspaper doesn't count). As for which professional law magazines/websites/rankings matter... we don't know. No expert has really bothered much to tell us that, in few months I've been asking. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 01:10, 11 April 2015 (UTC)[reply

]

Your criteria do not appear rational. I don't have the patience to engage in a discussion which assumes "Having notable employees does not matter. Neither does being the biggest in a city or province of" are not relevant. Davis Graham & Stubbs is notorious for its political connections. You can say that is merely "notable employees" but that makes no sense. Nor does the notion that articles in The Rocky Mountain News, The Denver Post, to say nothing of the speciality legal paper, Law Week Colorado, in Denver, don't count as reliable sources. Nonsense! User:Fred Bauder Talk 06:38, 11 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

It is not only a matter of patience, but more the availability of free time for most volunteer conriutors here. Just my $.02. Ottawahitech (talk) 18:30, 11 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

My comments are unnecessarily nasty, but I have lots of time for productive work; none for wasting days arguing over "policies" that violate basic Wikipedia policies such as verifiability and using reliable sources. User:Fred Bauder Talk 09:11, 12 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

See Article content does not determine notability:

Notability is a property of a subject and not of a Wikipedia article. If the subject has not been covered outside of Wikipedia, no amount of improvements to the Wikipedia content will suddenly make the subject notable. Conversely, if the source material exists, even very poor writing and referencing within a Wikipedia article will not decrease the subject's notability.

User:Fred Bauder Talk 10:22, 12 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

It would help determine notability for some legal firms if we had better articles on the history of the legal profession in America. (I just looked at American Bar Association, & except for the date of its founding, & a few controversial events during its existence, there is nothing about its history: not about the challenges it faced getting established, not about its relationship with state bar associations, not even an explanation why the ABA was founded. So if a given legal firm was notable for, say, improving the quality of lawyer training & professionalism, there is no way to objectively determine it.) And I suspect this weakness exists for many other professions: accountants, doctors, engineers, etc. Having links from articles where notability has been proven (or is self-evident) helps disinterested editors to believe that a given article is notable. -- llywrch (talk) 20:09, 13 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Why don't we look at the issue from another point of view? Applying the