Talk:WikiLeaks: Difference between revisions

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Apple Records doesn't have a disclaimer that they aren't related to Apple Inc. So why does this article need a disclaimer? This looks like a meta Wikipedia thing. Wiki software predates Wikipedia by many years and WikiLeaks originally was conceived to use Wiki software, but they later rejected it. Someone Not Awful (talk) 23:28, 24 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Someone Not Awful, I support retaining the disclaimer. I have often observed people online confusing WikiLeaks with Wikipedia. And your Apple analogy is absurd. In 2017, CIA Director Mike Pompeo called WikiLeaks "a non-state hostile intelligence service." No U.S. government official has said any such thing about Apple. Whenever possible, Wikipedia would be wise to distance itself from WikiLeaks, which is toxic on a grand scale. KalHolmann (talk) 00:02, 25 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The hatnote has been extensively discussed, and consensus is that it is a necessary evil. In general, Wikipedia does not use disclaimers in articles. This is a rare exception. Reach Out to the Truth 00:06, 25 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia has numerous partner projects and organizations, from WikiMedia, WikiCommons etc.. and fact Wikileaks started out with MediaWiki software muddles the two. In general, I would support adding a disclaimer to WikiHow as well, but that's a discussion on their page. Shushugah (talk) 13:20, 5 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The disclaimer is there to hide the obvious connection between the Wimipedia and WikiLeaks. Assange is obviously a sock puppet of

Jimbo Wales. Sayyed al afghani (talk) 20:15, 29 August 2018 (UTC)[reply

]

It's been discussed - the hatnote's needed, and a rare exception to the guidelines of "no disclaimers". Paintspot Infez (talk) 23:02, 14 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Change 4chan forum (used by far-right American groups) to 4chan forum, to comply with NPOV and reduce bias. 97.121.167.173 (talk) 06:39, 2 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The sources after the sentence you are referring to support the information that you are asking be removed. How is this not neutral? ~ GB fan 10:12, 2 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

 Done (and also wikilinked 4chan). GB fan, the parenthetical note made it sound like (or could have made it sound like) 4chan's main purpose is use by the far-right, whereas the Guardian article simply said that the Monde article reported that it was "[favored]" by them. I wouldn't automatically object to a more nuanced note here if it can be made in a well-sourced way, but as it stood, it was a blanket statement about 4chan that wasn't appropriate. –Deacon Vorbis (carbon • videos) 14:25, 2 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I'm wondering why the article doesn't provide a link to WikiLeak's offical website. The "External links" section is empty. NewWorld101 (talk) 16:09, 13 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I was wondering the same thing. Although WikiLeaks.org is written in the side box I don't know why it isn't the usual clickable URL Cannonmc (talk) 08:29, 14 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The editor Aviartm has edit-warred out long-standing content on Assange's fueling of Seth Rich conspiracy theories (even going as far as violating 3RR). The editor keeps removing RS language that notes that Assange (1) suggested/implied that Seth Rich was the leaker[1][2][3][4][5][6][7] and (2) that Assange's BS fuelled conspiracy theories on the subject.[8][9] The editor instead keeps adding obfuscating

You just copied and pasted your info here from

talk) 18:55, 14 April 2019 (UTC)[reply

]

I've removed this. First, Aviartm, I have no idea what you mean by "both POVs." What "POVs" would those be? The sources reflect that the implication that Seth Rich might be connected to WikiLeaks is an evidence-free conspiracy theory. Second, moreover, you removed the cited statement "No evidence supports the claim that Rich was the source of the leaks" (that's

WP:PROFRINGE. Third, you lack consensus for this material and need to stop inserting it, over the objections of other editors. Neutrality^talk 20:57, 16 April 2019 (UTC)[reply

]

talk) 21:17, 16 April 2019 (UTC)[reply

]

First, those are just statements of a single individual, so it's super weird to refer to two statements of the same guy as 'both POVs." Second, Snoogans plus myself is two editors. Third, as your second point ("there's no evidence that Rich wasn't the source of the leaks"), that's an argument from ignorance. Fourth, the sources clearly support the statement that there is no evidence behind the conspiracy theory; the Slate article says there is "absolutely zero evidence for" the claim. Neutrality^talk 22:01, 16 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia:PROFRINGE

. I would like feedback because you said it, so it is best that you come up with a response please.

Finally, I think it is best that we do include "No evidence supports the claim that Rich was the source of the leaks." with appropriate citations; include quotations from Assange's interviews from Nieuwsuur and Fox News as prior to my edits becoming controversial, these interviews were already cited, just not in text form in the page. Both comments of Assange should be in there. The current state of the page is misleading and the "fueling conspiracies" part is extremely violating Correlation does not imply causation. Snooganssnoogans since the start has not been cooperative and been

talk) 22:26, 16 April 2019 (UTC)[reply

]

The "fueling conspiracies" part is taken directly from the source. E.g., NBC News: "WikiLeaks ... is fueling Internet conspiracy theories." I have no idea what you mean by repeating "extremely violating correlation does not imply causation," but that's not a policy. And there is no policy that we have to replicate long quotations from anyone, let alone fringe figures.

WP:PROFRINGE says we are "nor a soapbox for self-promotion" of fringe theories, nor should we give "the proclamations of its adherents" excessive prominent. Rely on the mainstream sources and their interpretations. Neutrality^talk 23:48, 16 April 2019 (UTC)[reply

]

Wikipedia:NPOV

and there are factual errors.

Gimmicks used to object my edits: 1. No clear consensus, 2.

talk) 01:31, 17 April 2019 (UTC)[reply

]

Analogies of Julian Assange to the D.C. police are totally irrelevant. I've made my position, based on Wikipedia policy, very clear, as has Snooganssnoogans. You haven't fully responded to those points, but have chosen instead to get personal ("bogus opposition," etc.). I'm not going to repeat myself. Neutrality^talk 03:46, 17 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

talk) 03:58, 17 April 2019 (UTC)[reply

]

Neutrality "Analogies of Julian Assange to the D.C. police are totally irrelevant." <-- Why? Asserting something does not make it true. That's a non-argument. 84percent (talk) 04:01, 17 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not going to get into games with you. This is an encyclopedia and not an Internet forum or debating society. If you want to take this to RfC with a version A/version B, take it to RfC (which would be better than filibustering). But if you "make your edits" again, without consensus, as you have threatened to do, you would violate Wikipedia policy. So I want to make that very clear and explicit to you. Neutrality^talk 04:02, 17 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

talk) 04:15, 17 April 2019 (UTC)[reply

]

@Neutrality: You specifically made a post on a noticeboard calling for more input to this debate. If you are uninterested in discussion, then why would you create that post calling for more eyeballs? 84percent (talk) 04:05, 17 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I am interested in getting more views from experienced editors. I'm not interested in listening to the same editor filibuster. Please comment on the content, not on me, and please stop pinging me. Neutrality^talk 04:07, 17 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

My edit experience is irrelevant and shouldn't be brought up here (see:

WP:APR). I have been and am commenting on the content; I simply asked you to explain or elaborate on your argument, however you responded with remarks about me personally, which seemingly includes a threat of admin action. My original question to you regarding the analogy of Julian Assange and the D.C. police has not been answered. 84percent (talk) 04:12, 17 April 2019 (UTC)[reply

]

It is very important to present a

WP:NPOV. The text is currently clearly biased and misleading. In particular, replace

WikiLeaks fuelled the conspiracy theories by offering a reward of $20,000 for information leading to the capture of Rich's killer and hinting that Rich may have been the source of the leaked emails. No evidence supports the claim that Rich was the source of the leaks.

With the more accurate and undoubtedly neutral:

Julian Assange did not confirm or deny the source behind the DNC emails. Assange elaborated by saying; "We're not saying that Seth Rich's death necessarily is connected to our publications – that's something that needs to be established. But if there is any question about a source of WikiLeaks being threatened, then people can be assured that this organization will go after anyone who may have been involved in some kind of attempt to coerce or possibly, in this kill a potential source." WikiLeaks offered a reward of $20,000 for information regarding Rich's death.

84percent (talk) 03:27, 17 April 2019 (UTC)[reply

]

The existing text accurately reflects the reliable cited sources. There is zero basis to call it "misleading" or less "accurate." Neutrality^talk 03:30, 17 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

You asked for more eyeballs here; do you want my input or not? In my opinion, and others, there is a clear bias and the way the text is worded does not present a

WP:NPOV. 84percent (talk) 03:33, 17 April 2019 (UTC)[reply

]

I agree with

Aviartm above. 84percent (talk) 03:34, 17 April 2019 (UTC)[reply

]

Thank you

talk) 03:43, 17 April 2019 (UTC)[reply

]

How can it be that adding additional factual context and including the original quote is somehow less neutral? Thank you for you efforts in keeping the page honest. 84percent (talk) 03:53, 17 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

talk) 04:01, 17 April 2019 (UTC)[reply

]

If you believe there is community-wide support for your obfuscatory fringe version, then start a RfC.

talk) 11:36, 17 April 2019 (UTC)[reply

]

I support the version in which we cite Assange directly. Especially as this concerns accusations against a BLP, it's better to stick closely to what they actually said, rather than how their critics characterize what they said. If the quote were inordinately long, then I would be in favor of paraphrasing it, but it's only a bit longer than the third-party paraphrase. -Thucydides411 (talk) 13:40, 17 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Since the arrest of Julian Assange "it" is often wrote/said WikiLeaks revealed war crimes.

For instance, this week Ecuador’s former president said that "although Julian Assange denounced war crimes, he’s only the person supplying the information." Ref.: The Latest: Quito arrest part of Assange probe, AP News, April 12, 2019

With the assistance of newspapers including the New York Times, Der Spiegel, the Guardian and Le Monde, the "Iraq: The War Logs" were disclosed and revealed the Pentagon had falsely denied knowledge of various crimes. The lead for the Guardian’s introduction to "Iraq: The War Logs" said that the WikiLeaks documents detail "torture, summary executions and war crimes."

Without going further back, have Wikileaks’ leaked documents exposed war crimes? If so, shouldn't we mention it in the introductory section. --93.211.209.233 (talk) 15:32, 14 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The lede is strongly focused on American politics. In particular, about a third of the lede is about the ongoing political scandal over 2016 election ("Russiagate"). The lede makes almost no mention of Wikileaks' leaks regarding other countries, including Saudi Arabia, Syria and Russia. Russiagate doesn't need as much space in the lede, and the other leaks need at least some mention. -Thucydides411 (talk) 00:13, 17 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks -- I agree. I've removed some of the RussiaGate from the lead, but I haven't touched the body. Specifically, whether Julian Assange has a US political preference is not relevant; we do not write the same about editor-in-chiefs or CEOs in the leads of, for example, The New York Times, Forbes, or other popular outlets. 84percent (talk) 03:57, 17 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

When RS cover the biases of "news" organizations, we absolutely do cover that in the lede.

talk) 11:30, 17 April 2019 (UTC)[reply

]

Nope, the lede should summarize the body and a large part of the body covers how this "journalistic" outlet pushes feverish conspiracy theories and hoaxes related to US politics, and all coincidentally about Democrats.

talk) 11:30, 17 April 2019 (UTC)[reply

]

This is actually a good example of how one-sided the article has become. WikiLeaks has released plenty of information on Republicans. Its leaks in 2010 mostly concerned the actions of the Republican administration of GW Bush. It published Sarah Palin's emails during the 2008 election campaign. But in 2016, it released emails about Clinton and the DNC, which the article now obsessively focuses on. There are also very important leaks about other countries that receive only scant mention - the Syrian government leaks, the leaks of draft sections of TTIP, and the leaks about the Turkish government, just to give three major examples. Wikipedia is a global encyclopedia, and this article has to keep a global perspective, rather than focusing narrowly on recent American politics. -Thucydides411 (talk) 13:35, 17 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

If you want to add RS content to the body, go ahead and do so. No one is stopping you. WikiLeaks's actions in the 2016 election are extremely notable, as reflected by RS coverage, and arguably shaped the outcome of the election. Furthermore, it is noteworthy that a "journalistic" outlet like WikiLeaks pushes hoaxes, falsehoods and feverish conspiracy theories. It is entirely standard to cover such content both in the body and lede of Wikipedia articles for organizations that purport to do news.

talk) 13:45, 17 April 2019 (UTC)[reply

]

You are also violating

talk) 13:45, 17 April 2019 (UTC)[reply

]