Talk:American Game

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There was a line in this article about Abraham Lincoln getting his nickname, "Honest Abe", because of his impartiality in refereeing cockfights. I have removed it for now. There are two issues. The first is whether he participated in such fights at all. The second is whether his participation in those fights is what earned him his nickname. The second part is the most unlikely to be provable because of all of the other instances of his honesty that have been told. It is likely that he got the name because of many instances of honesty rather than getting it through cockfighting alone. Therefore, if you could prove that he did participate in the fights, the best you could probably say is that it may have been a factor in him getting his nickname. There is a Reddit Ask Historians article here that discusses the issue. If you wish to contact me for some reason, please use my user talk page. -- Kjkolb (talk) 06:10, 5 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I'm planning to do a major cleanup/expansion here, and have several points to address and add refs for.

• This is a type, not a breed. This article is like the main hound article. There are a lot of different breeds of hound, Bloodhound, Foxhound, Coonhound, etc, but they have variations within the breed. You breed a black and tan Bloodhound to a red Bloodhound, you get a pure Bloodhound puppy. Color and breed are two different things. These chickens are the same. The different "lines" are in fact different breeds and they are not crossed.
• Cockfighting chickens are bred in the US and sold and shipped south of the border to Mexico for fights. Animal rights people may not like that, but it still happens and probably will for a long time. There are also plenty of undercover fights in the US. Saying they're not bred to fight anymore isn't factual. White Arabian Filly ^Neigh 15:38, 21 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

White Arabian Filly, I'm sure you're right on your second point. On the first, what sources support your thesis? Because the most obvious ones, the American Poultry Association and the Livestock Conservancy, treat this as a single breed. The current content could probably safely be removed as all-but-completely unreferenced, and replaced with something better – if you've found some sources? Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 15:59, 21 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Will check Google Books and that should provide some solid source material. I have a couple of chicken books, but they only list the common breeds like Rhode Island Reds and don't discuss cockfighting or fighting breeds at all. (Probably because they're aimed at people who are raising only a few chickens to eat or lay eggs.) I think some of what's here can be verified, but the fighting-doesn't-happen-anymore is obviously not true. White Arabian Filly ^Neigh 21:34, 22 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

this looks like a solid one if we can find a preview edition. There's also an American Gamefowl Society, but their website is currently hacked and has a lot of nonsense about crossfit training. On my first point above, my strongest reason for considering this a type and not a breed is that, if you cross two different colors within the same breed, you'll get offspring of either or both colors. If you cross, say, a Brown Red game rooster on a Silver Duckwing hen, the resulting chicks will be mixed colors with some traits of both parents. With chickens it seems like most breeds or varieties are one color only and they're not crossed with other colors, like Brown Leghorns and White Leghorns are two distinct things. Maybe "family" of chickens is a better term than breed because they're so different from dog or horse breeds. A lot of stuff to look up, I guess. White Arabian Filly ^Neigh 21:48, 22 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I don't agree, White Arabian Filly. Trafford Publishing is print-on-demand service (prices here). As you can see from the illiterate blurb on G-books, this is nothing like a reliable source. This breed is virtually unknown in Europe (not recognised by the PCGB or the Entente Européenne), so I'd tend be wary of a British source which claims to know all about it. You do know that plenty of chicken breeds have twenty or more colour varieties, right? (the Leghorn has 34 in Germany (where it's called Italiener), not all of them with Europe-wide recognition; Carlisle Old English Game has about 33). And that there are relatively few that only have one? And that in each case they are treated as breeds based on their morphological characteristics, not on the colour of the feathers? Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 23:17, 22 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

White Arabian Filly, you got me started: I've gone ahead and added some refs and written a bit based on what they say – which on the large fowl is precious little indeed. Please add more if you can find it. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 12:46, 23 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry I didn't have time to reply yesterday. I didn't know they were almost non-existent in the UK. I knew they are in Mexico, the Philippines and several other countries. Yes, I'm aware of the different colors most chicken breeds come in. With these, some of the different breeds do seem to be merely different colors of the same chicken, but some don't, like the Gilbert Hatch, Roundhead, and Biloxi Spangle. I guess they could be defined as American Game, because they're game chickens that originated in America but they are defined by place of origin or breeder, not color alone. That may be why it's not a recognized breed; Bubba from Mississippi wanted a chicken that could fight longer, while Joe from Alabama wanted one that was quick and would get it over with in 5 minutes. They bred chickens to match what they wanted and there was therefore a good bit of difference from chicken to chicken. I'm not denying that some of the different types now seem to be considered variations of the same breed, like with the banty version, but there seem to be other "American Games" out there too. White Arabian Filly ^Neigh 21:02, 25 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I don't know what those things are (Gilbert Spangle and so on), nor does Google help me at all, so I can't comment on that. Do you see any problems with the text I've added to the page? I certainly had enough trouble finding any sources at all. Are you sure this breed is present in the Philippines – don't they have their own breeds there, just as other countries such as the UK do? What's your source for that? Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 22:24, 25 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I found 2 books that talk about American chickens being imported to the Philippines [1] [2] One is talking about Cochins and laying breeds, but the other doesn't mention breeds. There are several books solely about cockfighting in the Philippines, but most are on snippet view. I also saw a different book that said the native chickens there were practically bantam size. There is also a forum called Sabong or something that's based in the Philippines and most of the chickens they were talking about were familiar to me. It's not reliable for a source, but Ok to read if you're curious. I couldn't find info on Biloxi Spangle chickens, but did find a picture [3] I used to have some when I was about 10 or 11, but I don't think I have any pictures. I haven't seen any of them for a long time.

Update thanks to Commons I just discovered that the Philippines host an annual World Gamefowl Expo. If there are news reports in English they might be good sources. White Arabian Filly ^Neigh 21:35, 26 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Why does the title of this page have "fowl" tacked on to it in lower-case? If it's part of the breed name it should be capitalised, as is our practice with all breed names; but it appears the breed is called simply "American Game". If it's supposed to be a disambiguator it's not needed – this is the only American Game we have a page on (that page redirects here). Does anyone see any reason why it shouldn't be moved to that title? Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 12:53, 23 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see any reason why it shouldn't be American Game. By the way, "game chicken" redirects to a page about a boxer. Shouldn't it redirect to the main game fowl page? White Arabian Filly ^Neigh 21:04, 23 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks! I'll wait at least a day before doing anything; meanwhile, try Game chicken. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 21:30, 23 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]