Talk:Annexation of Hyderabad/Archive 1
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Archive 1 |
Require reference
There were large scale communal riots in various parts of the state in the immediate aftermath of the military operation —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.160.166.141 (talk) 11:38, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
"Hyderabad had given Rupees 200 million to Pakistan, and had stationed a bomber squadron there." What is the reference? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Aschwynn (talk • contribs) 05:31, 12 June 2010 (UTC)
"and leader of the radical Majlis-e-Ittehadul Muslimeen (MIM) Party, to set up an voluntary militia of Muslims called the 'Razakars'" What is your reference to say that MIM is a radical? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.83.29.217 (talk) 03:13, 30 June 2011 (UTC)
NPOV
This article , however , well stocked on information as it seems,is slightly tilted towards anti-nationalism with respect to India and Pakistan in a unjust way.The annexation of Hyderabad was purely propelled by national and populist interest of the people of erstwhile hyderabad state who were exceedingly downtrodden by the nizamiat or aristocracy of the nobleman as was the case in all the princely states in the erstwhile subcontinent.The newly created Islamic republic of Pakistan was full of glee as to a prospect of a collusion with a seemingly moslem state{85 % were Hindus living with harmony with Muslims} of Hyderabad due to moslem roots at the helm of its affairs. In order to push its unjust claim for Jammu&Kashmir it sought to have access to heart of India in order to push its nefarious designs which were foresighted by the ruling Indian party.Thus it is believed that the national interest of India under Sardar Vallabh Patel is well exemplified.If there is one country which is more similar to Republic Of India ,theologically, practically,militrarily,sociallyit is none other than United states of America.Just look at the middle class of both countries both fueled by flourishing democracy.The challenges faced by the American democracy has been similar to the one faced by Indian democracy.... and thus the socalled annexation of hyderabad was just a replay of American-Mexican War albeit in the 20th century.
Starquentin (talk) 07:00, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
I don't believe that the army of Hyderabad was expected "to put up fierce resistance" as said by the article
This page needs an objective look and I'd like to put an NPOV tag to it.
--iFaqeer 10:23, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
Agreed, this page appears definitely not to be NPOV. =/ 134.50.7.201 03:40, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
I have added citation needed tags to the aftermath paragraph Bharatveer 11:22, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
I added an NPOV tag to the section "Aftermath" because: 1. It did not sound very neutral and appeared to be lacking quite a bit of information, and 2. I don't have time now to try and sift through piles of sources. Hopefully others will see this and try to clarify, cite, and contribute. Rubber soul
I would like to add NPOV tag to the whole article. There are few terms like "what Govt of India gives is victor's story" which should not be added.
Some of the items even appear biased. One example is the part that tries to pass off as proven fact what can, at best, only be an allegation that Indian troops committed atrocities on communists during the aftermath. While the page is indeed informative, it seems like the author has not fully succeeded in not allowing his / her personal prejudices from creeping in. --203.199.198.152 11:53, 23 January 2007 (UTC)203.199.198.152 11:55, 23 January 2007 (UTC)Sagar [email protected]
The History of Hyderabad article claims 200,000 Moslem deaths, which could be mentioned, to be NPOV, along with the role of airman Sidney Cotton. Hugo999 01:25, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
I am a bit puzzled by the idea that there was an INVASION of Hyderabad State. As I understand it from visiting that delightful city in 2003 there was an adjacent military cantonment at Secunderabad, which must in 1948 have had Indian Dominion Troops, all they had to do was move out to take charge. This is what seems to have happened. I would further wonder how useful the Nizam's government was to the ordinary citizen, bearing in mind the wealth that was taken to Australia, and the present opinion that Muslim States are failed states. I was troubled by the expensive garden ornaments in the graveyard of the royal family, which spoke of Muslim self agrandisement in death rather than concern for the people of the state. For those Muslims who will accuse me of Christian bias, I will point out that I have two Muslim chosen sonbs, on of whom comed from Hyderabad. The Reverend Peter M. Hawkins.
This article is still low on references and high on bias. "crowds of razakars disappeared magically"? "drove back to King Kothi to brood"? Kelvinc (talk) 19:51, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
Ya, "drove back to King Kothi to brood" etc sounds soooo much like its a novel.. Reverend Peter Hawkins is right, it was not merely an 'invasion', the people living in the Nizam's dominions were downtrodden & neglected, they were planning to overthrow him anyway, so it was a force from within along with Indian army moving in. The Nizam played the religion card, but his own muslim citizens were also tired of being looted under his regime, all the farmers were preparing to revolt. But these are stories narrated in our families, I dont know where to get references from.. Lilaac (talk) 20:01, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
The initial expression "The liberation of Hyderabad" is very much opinionated. Legally it was an annexation, no matter how much the people of Hyderabad might have welcomed it or not, which is almost always only speculation and assuming that the people of Hyderabad would be homogenous and all feel the same way about the annexation. The elites for instance might have been in favour of an independent Hyderabad. Also there's a type-o in the second paragraph: "Nisam's" instead of "Nizam's". And here's a word missing: "The Indians however, were wary of having an independent - and possibly hostile [state] in the heart of its territory". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.94.133.4 (talk) 13:01, 16 March 2010 (UTC)
bad source
This version has listed this BBC link as a source. If you examine that webpage, you will see the source of the assertion about post-conflict reprisals and the "50,000" figure to come from a blog - not a credible reference. I have thus removed the questionable parts. Shiva (Visnu) 19:49, 4 August 2010 (UTC)
Requested move
- The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the move request was: page moved. Vegaswikian (talk) 06:58, 2 June 2011 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
Photo concern
N.B.: There appears to be a 'mix-up' of the two Major-Generals in the photograph. El Edroos is actually at 'left' side and J N Chaudhuri at 'right' side. The misrepresentation of the two Major-Generals in the write-up below the photograph has not been duly amended yet. My contention may be checked from the photos of Late Gen. J N Chaudhuri from Google and other sources for proper verification.--68.193.2.168 (talk) 16:27, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
- Could you provide a source that the picture is currently mislabeled? Qwyrxian (talk) 23:20, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
Apart from Google photos of Gen. J N Chaudhuri, Indian Army websites can also be sources for the verification of the physical identity.--68.193.2.168 (talk) 18:25, 1 August 2012 (UTC)
Require reference
When the British finally departed from the Indian subcontinent in 1947, they offered the various princely states in the sub-continent the option of acceding to either India or Pakistan, or staying on as an independent state.
The British give only two options to princely states that either merge with India or Pakistan. There was no third option like it is saying remain as Independent State.
Therefore, please rectify the sentence as When the British finally departed from the Indian subcontinent in 1947, they offered the various princely states in the sub-continent the option of acceding to either India or Pakistan. 182.69.85.114 (talk) 05:52, 13 June 2014 (UTC)
Rewrote the lead
I have rewrote the lead based on various
Semi-protected edit request on 21 September 2014
This Operation Polo has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Please include points from these sources
http://lawandotherthings.blogspot.in/2012/04/operation-polo-forgotten-massacre-in.html
http://twocircles.net/2011sep17/fall_hyderabad_17th_september_black_day_human_history.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghanpur,_Ranga_Reddy_district
103.254.100.10 (talk) 00:27, 21 September 2014 (UTC)
- Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. The communal violence is already mentioned in a seperate section. Please state explicitly what else you wish to be added. Kingsindian (talk) 00:39, 21 September 2014 (UTC)
Requested move 2
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
- Note: The category Category:Violence against Muslims and Category:Religious violence in India were added within past week by the supporter/proposer of this move request. --AmritasyaPutraT 12:29, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
- Support. Excellent justification. Kautilya3 (talk) 21:36, 13 September 2014 (UTC)
- Support Operation Polo could have its own article (someone would need to dedicate a bit of work to it), but if so, this article as it exists would be the main article, with a subsection summarising an Operation Polo article. It's about the entire integration of the principality, from the preceding negotiations to the aftermath. —innotata 04:28, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
- Comment - integration implies changes to structure, democratic processes, law, weights and measures etc. Wouldn't Indian annexation of Hyderabad be a more accurate name? GraemeLeggett (talk) 09:11, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
- It would indeed be ok for the operation itself, but I am envisaging a more comprehensive article, dealing with prelude and aftermath. In the aftermath, the bureaucracy was widely overhauled by the Indian govt., which created its own problems, and many other changes happened. The annexation just took 5 days, and was a foregone conclusion, but the issue is much more complex than that. I have added a link to "integration" in the move request. Kingsindian (talk) 10:05, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
- This is not a good place to debate the deeper issues behind the terminology, but I would like to point out that "integration" is indeed the standard term as in "Political integration of India." Kautilya3 (talk) 10:54, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
- It would indeed be ok for the operation itself, but I am envisaging a more comprehensive article, dealing with prelude and aftermath. In the aftermath, the bureaucracy was widely overhauled by the Indian govt., which created its own problems, and many other changes happened. The annexation just took 5 days, and was a foregone conclusion, but the issue is much more complex than that. I have added a link to "integration" in the move request. Kingsindian (talk) 10:05, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
- Oppose - Google hits for "Operation Polo" is 83,600. Google hits for "Indian integration of Hyderabad" is 2. Operation Polo is not exactly the synonym of "Indian Integration of Hyderabad", so this "move" would be incorrect. This article may be refactored and another new article created. --AmritasyaPutraT 12:23, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
- I don't understand the point of citing Google searches here. But [1] gives 5 million results, [2] gives 174,000. As I said already, the part which only deals with the battle is very small and very weak, with few references. Kingsindian (talk) 12:34, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
- If we rename this page, I expect that we would still have "Operation Polo" as a redirect to this page. Or "Operation Polo" could have a separate page of its own in future focusing on the military operations. In either case, we wouldn't lose any traffic coming via Google. Kautilya3 (talk) 13:55, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
- I don't understand the point of citing Google searches here. But [1] gives 5 million results, [2] gives 174,000. As I said already, the part which only deals with the battle is very small and very weak, with few references. Kingsindian (talk) 12:34, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
- Support Strong rationale that the article is more than just the invasion. Indian Annexation of Hyderabad is a better title though. Hyderabad joined India following a military operation - Integration doesn't reflect that reality. --regentspark (comment) 16:33, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
- Integration is the using national varieties of English) apply. Also, annexation isn't perfectly accurate either, since Hyderabad wasn't independent under the Raj. —innotata13:30, 15 September 2014 (UTC)
- Is that strictly accurate? Under the terms of independence, princely states had the option of becoming independent entities. The Nizam opted for independence and India's military expedition was more than a year later. In short, Hyderabad State was independent for 13 months, became a part of India unwillingly and as a result of military action. Annexation is definitely a better term than integration because it encompasses the entire process, what happens before the military action, what happens during the military action, and the immediate aftermath. Somewhat along the lines of 1961 Indian annexation of Goa. Once Hyderabad became a part of India, that's when the process of integrating it began. --regentspark (comment) 15:26, 15 September 2014 (UTC)
- I think the difference from Goa is that Hyderabad was under the "paramountcy" of British India, whereas that wasn't the case for Goa. There was a British resident in Hyderabad and British Indian army garrisons stationed there. These arrangements continued when India became independent. As User:Kingsindian says the issues are complex and it is best to stick to non-controversial terminology in naming the page. Kautilya3 (talk) 16:02, 15 September 2014 (UTC)
- I don't see "annexation" as a controversial word. However, as I say below, "integration" is better than the status quo so que sera sera. --regentspark (comment) 17:28, 15 September 2014 (UTC)
- I think the difference from Goa is that Hyderabad was under the "paramountcy" of British India, whereas that wasn't the case for Goa. There was a British resident in Hyderabad and British Indian army garrisons stationed there. These arrangements continued when India became independent. As User:Kingsindian says the issues are complex and it is best to stick to non-controversial terminology in naming the page. Kautilya3 (talk) 16:02, 15 September 2014 (UTC)
- Is that strictly accurate? Under the terms of independence, princely states had the option of becoming independent entities. The Nizam opted for independence and India's military expedition was more than a year later. In short, Hyderabad State was independent for 13 months, became a part of India unwillingly and as a result of military action. Annexation is definitely a better term than integration because it encompasses the entire process, what happens before the military action, what happens during the military action, and the immediate aftermath. Somewhat along the lines of
- The issues are complex. "Annexation" is arguable, but "integration" is also widely used (I gave an example in the header). The lead for the article states that it was annexed in the military operation, so that is not an issue. The issue is that the article's scope is a bit broader. The annexation itself was only a small part of the story. Kingsindian (talk) 13:42, 15 September 2014 (UTC)
- I don't disagree. Integration is definitely better than the current title. --regentspark (comment) 15:26, 15 September 2014 (UTC)
- Integration is the
Noorani
I have Noorani's book (Destruction of Hyderabad). But, the index isn't great and the Google Books doesn't have a searchable copy. So, it is not easy to find information in there. I am making some notes as I am reading it, and I will add them to the article when I am reasonably done.
It is fairly clear that Noorani is biased against Sardar Patel. So, I think it would be inappropriate to include his ideas on Patel on Wikipedia. I have great respect for Noorani, but I don't regard him as an authority on Patel. Noorani thinks that one has to be just like Nehru to be considered secular. Sorry, no. Nehru is Nehru and Patel is Patel. They were both secular in different ways. Kautilya3 (talk) 19:31, 23 September 2014 (UTC)
- I do not have Noorani's book, all I have read is the reviews of the book, and Noorani's other articles on Hyderabad in Frontline and elsewhere. When you say that Noorani is biased against Sardar Patel, that may be right or wrong, but it is not too relevant. See Wikipedia:Identifying_reliable_sources#Biased_or_opinionated_sources. Since he can be considered biased, I have given him in-text attribution. Noorani is used for two claims about Patel,
- That he was mainly behind using the military option, while Nehru took a less hard-line position. That, I think is not in doubt, since the Sherman source also identifies Patel by name.
- The second claim is that Patel hated the Nizam personally and was ideologically opposed to Hyderabadi culture. Noorani said much more, that Patel was a Hindu nationalist, and wanted to destroy Hyderabadi culture and so on. I have left those out for now.
- I have not read the book, so I do not know what he says which led him to reach these conclusions. However, the conclusions are notable, and I do not see any problem with including them, as long as they are attributed. If there is any other source which contradicts these claims, I would be happy to consider it. Kingsindian (talk) 08:12, 24 September 2014 (UTC)
- I am afraid I don't know all of Wikipedia policies on such issues. I am just using my common sense. Since it is clear that Noorani is biased against Patel (and he calls both Shankar's and Rajmohan Gandhi's biographies as "hagiographies"), we shouldn't use his statements about Patel except statements of fact. His opinions of Patel have no place in this page. We could put them in the WP:COATRACKterritory here.
- "Patel hated Nizam" is a very strong statement to make and I am surprised he makes it so lightly without sufficient foundation. As for Patel destroying "Hyderbadi culture," whatever that might be, no mention has been made about such culture on this page. I think the book doesn't give sufficient information about such a culture either. Given that this is a central plank in Noorani's attack, he needed to put a chapter on Hyderabadi culture in his book. But there isn't one. There isn't even a small section on it. As far as I am concerned, this "Hyderabadi culture" is entirely imaginary. So, I say that both of these statements have to go. Kautilya3 (talk) 09:07, 24 September 2014 (UTC)
- I am afraid WP:SYNTH:
Kingsindian (talk) 09:48, 24 September 2014 (UTC)"As news of the convictions of Razvi and his men reached the public, prominent politicians again pressed Nehru to show generosity to the Muslims of Hyderabad. The Prime Minister was sympathetic. Hyderabadi Muslims, he wrote to Patel, exemplified a unique ‘and rather attractive culture’, and were ‘very much above the average’ ... When Nehru first voiced these arguments, Patel demurred. He was convinced that the promise of penal action against criminals had helped restore law and order, and that if that promise were not fulfilled, it would signal the government’s partiality for Muslims and would endanger the peace in the state."
- I would have no objection if multiple interpretations are presented. But that is not the case at present. There is just one sweeping opinion, which I regard as biased. Kautilya3 (talk) 10:25, 24 September 2014 (UTC)
- It may well be a biased opinion, but it is notable. I don't know much about history or historiography, but interpretation is everywhere. See E H Carr's What Is History?. As I stated, I am fine with including any other sources which say something different. But I don't see this as a reason for excluding a notable and relevant opinion. Kingsindian (talk) 15:18, 24 September 2014 (UTC)
- I hardly think it is "notable". Yes, Noorani is well-known, but seems well past his prime and this book is totally incoherent. Even Muslim bloggers seem to find it impossible to explain what the book is about, e.g., [3]. He himself is unable to explain what has actually been destroyed (cf. this interview [4]). So, latching on to his rants about Patel is the best that the people are able to do. We won't know whether the book is "notable" until we find some scholarly analysis of it, which will probably take a couple of years at least. I really think we should depend on the established material about Hyderabad. Kautilya3 (talk) 16:08, 24 September 2014 (UTC)
- It may well be a biased opinion, but it is notable. I don't know much about history or historiography, but interpretation is everywhere. See E H Carr's What Is History?. As I stated, I am fine with including any other sources which say something different. But I don't see this as a reason for excluding a notable and relevant opinion. Kingsindian (talk) 15:18, 24 September 2014 (UTC)
- I would have no objection if multiple interpretations are presented. But that is not the case at present. There is just one sweeping opinion, which I regard as biased. Kautilya3 (talk) 10:25, 24 September 2014 (UTC)
- I am afraid
- I am afraid I don't know all of Wikipedia policies on such issues. I am just using my common sense. Since it is clear that Noorani is biased against Patel (and he calls both Shankar's and Rajmohan Gandhi's biographies as "hagiographies"), we shouldn't use his statements about Patel except statements of fact. His opinions of Patel have no place in this page. We could put them in the
- Firstly, let me emphasize that editor opinions count for very little. You have the book and can decide about its persuasiveness yourself, but that is separate from the issue here. Being quoted in multiple news and magazine reviews does make one notable. There is no doubt sensationalism in the press about everything. However, we have no other way to determining notability. I do not know of any scholarly reviews of this book, which suggest something else about Patel's ideology, or his attitude towards the Nizam. If something comes in the future, it can be added.
- The following is a meta-discussion about whether Noorani is right or wrong. It is not strictly relevant to WP, but I will take a stab at it anyway, since it is interesting to me. To take the two sources you suggest, zerothly, a blogger being Muslim or not is irrelevant to the issue. Firstly, the interview source is a very brief, one paragraph response, and hardly counts, while the blogger is mostly complaining about too much material, not sufficiently organized. Secondly, as a point of logic, if one dislikes Hyderabadi culture, this does not imply that one is able to carry out the destruction. Remember that Patel died in 1950. Thirdly, was there no destruction? Just in the military operation, 200,000 people were killed. If you read the Sherman source, about 18,000 people were imprisoned in the operation, and 11,000 Muslims were released after 6 months because no evidence was found. The whole bureaucracy was overhauled, bringing in outside civil servants who couldn't even speak the language. It succeeded only partially: people found various ways around it. And of course, there were other factors, like linguistic ones, finally leading to the splitting up of the state in 1956. I do not mean to say this was all Patel's fault. Kingsindian (talk) 16:52, 24 September 2014 (UTC)
I added a couple of references. The Muralidharan article is quite excellent, containing a nice summary of the Noorani book as well as Hyder's book which I didn't know about previously. If you can't access the article, please send me private mail and I can email it to you. (This is independent of what I have been saying earlier.) Kautilya3 (talk) 20:00, 24 September 2014 (UTC)
Concluded vs reported
I feel that the excerpts from the BBC article are not NPOV. For example, the current text says that "The Committee concluded that while Muslims villagers were disarmed by the Indian Army, Hindus were often left with their weapons.", whereas the BBC article says that "The team reported that while Muslim villagers were disarmed by the Indian Army, Hindus were often left with their weapons." There is a big difference between a reports conclusion and a fact that is reported in it. In fact, the article goes on to say that "The investigation team also reported, however, that in many other instances the Indian Army had behaved well and protected Muslims." So it is very plausible that the involvement of the Indian armed forces in the massacres were sporadic, and not the norm. Unless anyone has objections, I am going to change the wording of the communal violence section to exactly what the original source says, and add the second POV that the armed forces also protected targeted communities from communal violence. I am invariant under co-ordinate transformations (talk) 18:30, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
- If you are quibbling with the wording, "concluded" vs "reported", please feel free to change it. I don't think it makes any difference. The exact words from the report are, "the policy of leaving the Hindus in possession of their arms was almost general." Nothing I have seen indicates that the involvement of the armed forces was "sporadic." A report commissioned by the Indian Government would obviously attempt to whitewash the role of the Armed Forces. The communists, on the other hand, have accused the Armed Forces of being primarily responsible for the massacres while the Hindu civilians attempted to protect the Muslims. (But the communists only had influence in Telangana. The worst massacres happened in the districts that are now in Maharashtra and Karnataka.) Kautilya3 (talk) 16:09, 6 January 2015 (UTC)
- Can we then link to the report directly ? Because the BBC article certainly doesnt give that impression. Plus its always better to refer to the primary sources. Also, there are two separate questions. The first is of leaving Hindus in possession of their arms, which clearly was a systematic policy on the part of the army. The second is participating in the massacres, the committee's reportage here seems to be that there were some occassions in which the armed forces participated in the massacres, whereas in many others it did not. Regarding the Communist perspective, we should also it include it with appropriate referencing. I am invariant under co-ordinate transformations (talk) 17:37, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
- On Wikipedia, we rely on secondary sources; see reliable sources. We should especially not attempt to summarize reports of commissions, court judgements etc. In any case, the report is in the appendix of the Noorani's book, cited in the Bibliography. As far as I know, that is the only place where it is available, until somebody manages to put it on Wikileaks. In my opinion, the best source to read is the Muralidharan article, also cited in the Bibliography. If you can't access it, please send me private mail, and I can send you a copy. Cheers, Kautilya3 (talk) 19:31, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
- On Wikipedia, we rely on secondary sources; see
- Can we then link to the report directly ? Because the BBC article certainly doesnt give that impression. Plus its always better to refer to the primary sources. Also, there are two separate questions. The first is of leaving Hindus in possession of their arms, which clearly was a systematic policy on the part of the army. The second is participating in the massacres, the committee's reportage here seems to be that there were some occassions in which the armed forces participated in the massacres, whereas in many others it did not. Regarding the Communist perspective, we should also it include it with appropriate referencing. I am invariant under co-ordinate transformations (talk) 17:37, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 23 February 2015
This Indian integration of Hyderabad has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
the URL link for "Razakars" should be lead to "Razakars(Hyderabad)" {https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Razakars_(Hyderabad)}; and NOT "Razkars" {https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Razakar}. (Relevance) Ga59cor (talk) 15:51, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
- Done--regentspark (comment) 16:12, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
Merge Pandit_Sunderlal_Committee_Report into this article
The other article is just a stub. It should be merged here. Kingsindian (talk) 17:03, 5 September 2014 (UTC)
(moved from other page)
- @) 18:38, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
- @Kautilya3: I am not sure if that would be a good idea. The Sunderlal Committee report was talking about the operation in particular. And this page contains much background etc. All of this was in context of the integration of Hyderabad, it is true, but the violence is not neatly separable from the operation itself. The Sunderlal Commmittee talks about people killed "during and after the police action" and goes into details. Kingsindian (talk) 01:07, 13 September 2014 (UTC)
- @Kingsindian: If you read the edit note of User:AmritasyaPutra at 21:15, you will see why this organisation doesn't work. Operation Polo is a police operation. What does it have to do with religious violence? 99.99999% people think that. Me too. So, if you want to do an iota of justice to those 200,000 hapless victims that got killed, please spin off a separate article. Kautilya3 (talk) 02:12, 13 September 2014 (UTC)
- @Kautilya3: Firstly, I am not sure what this has to do with the merge discussion. The Sunderlal Committee report is specifically about the operation. Secondly, I never thought of my actions as doing justice to anyone. I am just writing a wikipedia article. It seems to me that the way to deal with the edit you mention is to revert it, and point out the facts. Operation Polo was a military operation, called a "police action" by the Indian govt. As it states in the lead, it was used to annex Hyderabad. As is well known, military actions lead to all kinds of violence: religious, ethnic and political. Kingsindian (talk) 02:22, 13 September 2014 (UTC)
- Yes Kingsindian. May I ask Kautilya3 between which religions did this religion violence took place? Who was the perpetrator and who was the sufferer? The lead says it is a Police action. Was it a religious police? --AmritasyaPutraT 02:25, 13 September 2014 (UTC)
- Please, some calm. There is no reason for such edit summaries as "are you kidding" etc., though I agree with Kautilya3's edit. To AmritasyaPutra, the operation involved a lot of communal violence, as stated in the section. The lead says that it was called a "police action" by the govt., but it was a military operation. As the Sunderlal committee report and other sources say in the communal violence section, the Indian army was not innocent of communal violence of its own. And also, since one particular community was disarmed due to their association with the Razakars, they were left vulnerable to attacks from others. And of course, there were other factors, like historic factors. This is all inseparable with the operation. Kingsindian (talk) 02:46, 13 September 2014 (UTC)
- Just noting that 'are you kidding' summary is by Kautilya3. Thank you. --AmritasyaPutraT 02:53, 13 September 2014 (UTC)
- Likewise, noting that the edit that User:Kingsindian agreed with also mine. It looks like, when you get into edit wars, you begin to process only 1 out of every 10 words. The rest of it just skips by. Why don't you stop these edit wars? Kautilya3 (talk) 09:17, 13 September 2014 (UTC)
- Hmmm, I am not getting into your 'edit war', you have to sort it yourself, I asked a simple question on the content above, since I felt the comment about edit summary may appear to point to me I made a simple factual note on it. Hope that helps! Cheers!.--AmritasyaPutraT 11:17, 13 September 2014 (UTC)
- Likewise, noting that the edit that User:Kingsindian agreed with also mine. It looks like, when you get into edit wars, you begin to process only 1 out of every 10 words. The rest of it just skips by. Why don't you stop these edit wars? Kautilya3 (talk) 09:17, 13 September 2014 (UTC)
- Just noting that 'are you kidding' summary is by Kautilya3. Thank you. --AmritasyaPutraT 02:53, 13 September 2014 (UTC)
- Please, some calm. There is no reason for such edit summaries as "are you kidding" etc., though I agree with Kautilya3's edit. To AmritasyaPutra, the operation involved a lot of communal violence, as stated in the section. The lead says that it was called a "police action" by the govt., but it was a military operation. As the Sunderlal committee report and other sources say in the communal violence section, the Indian army was not innocent of communal violence of its own. And also, since one particular community was disarmed due to their association with the Razakars, they were left vulnerable to attacks from others. And of course, there were other factors, like historic factors. This is all inseparable with the operation. Kingsindian (talk) 02:46, 13 September 2014 (UTC)
- Yes Kingsindian. May I ask Kautilya3 between which religions did this religion violence took place? Who was the perpetrator and who was the sufferer? The lead says it is a Police action. Was it a religious police? --AmritasyaPutraT 02:25, 13 September 2014 (UTC)
- @Kautilya3: Firstly, I am not sure what this has to do with the merge discussion. The Sunderlal Committee report is specifically about the operation. Secondly, I never thought of my actions as doing justice to anyone. I am just writing a wikipedia article. It seems to me that the way to deal with the edit you mention is to revert it, and point out the facts. Operation Polo was a military operation, called a "police action" by the Indian govt. As it states in the lead, it was used to annex Hyderabad. As is well known, military actions lead to all kinds of violence: religious, ethnic and political. Kingsindian (talk) 02:22, 13 September 2014 (UTC)
- @Kingsindian: If you read the edit note of User:AmritasyaPutra at 21:15, you will see why this organisation doesn't work. Operation Polo is a police operation. What does it have to do with religious violence? 99.99999% people think that. Me too. So, if you want to do an iota of justice to those 200,000 hapless victims that got killed, please spin off a separate article. Kautilya3 (talk) 02:12, 13 September 2014 (UTC)
- @Kautilya3: I am not sure if that would be a good idea. The Sunderlal Committee report was talking about the operation in particular. And this page contains much background etc. All of this was in context of the integration of Hyderabad, it is true, but the violence is not neatly separable from the operation itself. The Sunderlal Commmittee talks about people killed "during and after the police action" and goes into details. Kingsindian (talk) 01:07, 13 September 2014 (UTC)
@
- No. The point is that most people think of the "Operation Polo" as the one that marched into the Hyderabad State and took it over. When the Nizam signed the accession, that operation was over. We were all told in school that this was bloodless operation. The massacres that happened afterwards represent the aftermath of the Operation Polo, which need their own page. It is like how we have a page for ) 10:40, 13 September 2014 (UTC)
- To add another point, right now the Operation Polo would amount to removing the only page we have on the massacres, which I regard "unjust." How does "justice" come into it? When we cover up facts or distort them, we would be unjust to the facts and also unjust to the people involved, often voiceless people and dead people. That is not what Wikipedia should be about. Kautilya3 (talk) 10:55, 13 September 2014 (UTC)
- I understand your point. I have a suggestion: we can have an article called "Integration of the State of Hyderabad into India", to discuss both the prelude and the aftermath? For instance, the Telengana rebellion preceding the Operation is also important, and it is given very little space. The alternative is to simply have a page alone for the violence/massacre, since the Telengana Rebellion has its own page. Kingsindian (talk) 11:20, 13 September 2014 (UTC)
- I have another thought on "justice" and articles. When you say that people think of Operation Polo as bloodless and so on, it seems to me that it makes all the more sense to put stuff here, which gives context, rather than in a separate article. Article forking would only involve hiving off of content into separate pages. It seems to me that it should be discussed holistically in one article. And another thought, merging would result simply in the article being redirected here, the original page would remain. Kingsindian (talk) 11:33, 13 September 2014 (UTC)
- I prefer a separate page on the violence/massacre, because it also gets listed under religious violence categories. (That is in fact I came upon this issue, by browsing through the Operation Polo, a military term, in those categories has the unfortunate effect of suggesting that the Indian Military was a key player, whereas in reality it wasn't. I have a feeling that we will get more information and sources for the violence itself in the coming years, because the Sunderlal report has become semi-public, and academics/journalists have begun to look into it. Kautilya3 (talk) 11:50, 13 September 2014 (UTC)
- I would also be happy if we changed the title of this page from "Operation of Polo" to "Indian integration of Hyderabad" (to rhyme with ") 11:54, 13 September 2014 (UTC)
- Ok,
making anaming the page called "Indian integration of Hyderabad" seems to solve the problem that stuff can be discussed in one place, while avoiding the impression that all or most of the violence was done by the military. If you feel that this is good, you can open a move request (or I can do it). Kingsindian (talk) 12:12, 13 September 2014 (UTC)- @Kingsindian: Can you request it please? I am not sure of the procedure to be followed. Kautilya3 (talk) 14:24, 13 September 2014 (UTC)
- Ok,
- I would also be happy if we changed the title of this page from "Operation of Polo" to "Indian integration of Hyderabad" (to rhyme with ") 11:54, 13 September 2014 (UTC)
- I prefer a separate page on the violence/massacre, because it also gets listed under religious violence categories. (That is in fact I came upon this issue, by browsing through the
- I have another thought on "justice" and articles. When you say that people think of Operation Polo as bloodless and so on, it seems to me that it makes all the more sense to put stuff here, which gives context, rather than in a separate article. Article forking would only involve hiving off of content into separate pages. It seems to me that it should be discussed holistically in one article. And another thought, merging would result simply in the article being redirected here, the original page would remain. Kingsindian (talk) 11:33, 13 September 2014 (UTC)
- I understand your point. I have a suggestion: we can have an article called "Integration of the State of Hyderabad into India", to discuss both the prelude and the aftermath? For instance, the Telengana rebellion preceding the Operation is also important, and it is given very little space. The alternative is to simply have a page alone for the violence/massacre, since the
- To add another point, right now the
- Merge: Whatever mentioned in committee's article is already mentioned in this article. I think no need of separate article. --Human3015Send WikiLove 22:06, 8 August 2015 (UTC)
- Done I did the text-merge. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 15:31, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 27 September 2015
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Muhammad Zain Amin (talk) 17:19, 27 September 2015 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 30 September 2015
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