Talk:Clouded leopard/Archive 1

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I was reluctant to give this article a start rating, but the lack of references definitely convinced me. Otherwise a great article that could do with some research form the finnish site & TLC... Spawn Man 04:24, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

All the news orgs are reporting a new species split off in Borneo, including a new binomial, but I can't find a link to a journal article. Anyone else having any luck? Sabine's Sunbird talk 07:49, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

The news reports are based on this press release from the WWF. The work appears to have been performed by the Laboratory of Genomic Diversity at the National Cancer Institute, in collaboration with the Department of Natural Sciences at the National Museum of Scotland. Bluap 14:54, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

If it is accepted that they are two different species, then the clouded leopard doesn't have the longest canines relative to its size, because the Neofelis diardi species has longer canine teeth.

I have some doubts about the new range map, showing Sumatra island, because the WWF news says that Scientists have discovered that the clouded leopard found on the islands of Borneo and Sumatra is an entirely new species of cat. I think it would be careful, before drawing a new range map, to look at the content of article Geographical Variation in the Clouded Leopard, Neofelis nebulosa, Reveals Two Species (December 5, 2006, Issue 16 (23) of Current Biology), which can be bought from page http://www.current-biology.com/content/issue?volume=16&issue=23 (Table of Contents)... Hégésippe | ±Θ± 18:40, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 20:43, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Their long fangs help them to capture monkeyes, deer, and much more food they need to survive —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.185.73.90 (talk) 21:09, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

The name for this cat in Malay is "rimaudahan" which means "tree tiger." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.161.40.119 (talk) 13:57, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

To begin with, I suggest moving this to Clouded leopard, which is one of the stupidest & most needless redirects I've seen. (When did clouded & leopard become proper nouns?) Second, "descend tree trunks head-first"? Isn't that the usual way, if you're not a primate? TREKphiler ^{hit me ♠} 04:51, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

I, myself, have three cats. I've seen them climb up and down trees. Most cats do not climb down head first. Rђαηα (talk) 23:47, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

Does anyone have a source for "females are able to bear one litter each year"? A female Clouded Leopard at the Smithsonian National Zoological Park just gave birth for the 3rd time in 12 months.Redtizzy (talk) 12:16, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

I find that hard to believe do you have a source? ZooPro 13:01, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Having looked at the smithsonian press release you are incorrect but partly correct. [1] is the correct information. She only gave birth twice, gestation is usually 80 days or there abouts. ZooPro 13:12, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

This beautiful Asian cat, named for its spotted coat, is seldom seen in the wild, and its habits remain a bit mysterious. Clouded leopards roam the hunting grounds of Asia from the rain forests of Indonesia to the foothills of the Nepali Himalayas. Though little information is known about their population sizes, they are considered a vulnerable species.

Most cats are good climbers, but the clouded leopard is near the top of its class. These big cats can even hang upside down beneath large branches, using their large paws and sharp claws to secure a good grip. Clouded leopards have short, powerful legs equipped with rotating rear ankles that allow them to safely downclimb in a headfirst posture—much like a common squirrel. Sharp eyesight helps them judge distances well, and the cats use their long tails to maintain balance.

Though clouded leopards are great climbers, scientists believe that they do most of their hunting on the ground, feasting on deer, pigs, monkeys, and smaller fare such as squirrels or birds. They are aided in their hunting by the largest canine teeth (proportionate to body size) of any wild cat.

Scientists are not sure exactly how clouded leopards act in the wild. They are probably solitary animals, like most cats. Females give birth to a litter of one to five cubs every year, and the young leopards remain dependent upon their. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.253.117.82 (talk) 17:09, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

I've just watched some cloudy cubs being vaccinated and microchipped on TV at

Thanks for the tip... just went to watch the vid and got a banner over the screen "Not Available in Your Area" - I'm in the USA. Maybe next time. --Seduisant (talk) 01:41, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

Clouded leopards closest thing to the sabertooth.

Provide evidence for this and a source to cite. It true, it would be interesting to include in the article. Kpstewart (talk) 19:15, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

Episode 65 of The Most Extreme on Animal Planet referred to clouded leopards as being the closest living relatives of the saber-toothed cat. But I don't know what source they were using for that claim. Could just be an assumption based on the fact that clouded leopards have the largest teeth relative to body size of any living cats. 24.214.230.66 (talk) 04:03, 12 August 2011 (UTC)

According to the "Handbook of Mammals of the World 1. Carnivores" Chiefly edited by Don E.Wilson & Russell A. Mittermeier, there are two species of Clouded Leopard, the Indochinese Clouded Leopard (Neofelis nebulosa) and the Diard's Clouded Leopard (Neofelis diardi). I am personally not confident about making these two articles myself, but if someone could take on the challenge and organize the Clouded Leopard Article into two new articles, I think this would be very beneficial to those researching these species.v(Mightyzebra (talk) 20:12, 11 July 2011 (UTC))

Already done. This article is about Neofelis nebulosa. There is a separate article,

Sunda Clouded Leopard, for Neofelis diardi. --mwalimu59 (talk

) 21:29, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

Wait: why isn't

Neofelis diardi within the scope of this article also? Why is N.nebulosa the only clouded leopard, according to this article? Isn't the Sunda Clouded leopard also a true clouded leopard? Is the problem that this one, nebulosa, is just two words, "clouded leopard", whereas diardi has a geographical adjective in its name? Chrisrus (talk

) 23:34, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

It's just an artifact of common names given to the animals. Nowhere does the article claim that neofelis nebulosa is the only clouded leopard. If it's the unqualified term "clouded leopard" you're objecting to, that argument could be taken in the other direction to complain that the article leopard doesn't address clouded leopards or snow leopards. mwalimu59 (talk) 02:44, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

You are completely correct. We should do as the article leopard does and leave a hatnote at the top of the page. If there were many so called articles, we'd need a disambiguation page link. There is only one other such article, the Sunda clouded leopard, so the hatnote should link there. But wait: what about the article Neofelis? Isn't it about clouded leopards in general? Doesn't it strike you as odd that the article Neofelis doesn't even mention the term "clouded leopard"? Chrisrus (talk) 05:38, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

This wikipedia article should NOT be split into two articles. Because it covers the species N. nebulosa that has been called clouded leopard for more than a century. If you had paid attention, you would have noticed the link to the article about the Sunda clouded leopard that is called so since 2006 only. The resp. article was started only a few years ago, i.e. once discussion about its English name was settled. Regarding Chrisrus' last questions : the article about the genus Neofelis provides links to both species from start on. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 09:02, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

No, my question is why the text of the article Neofelis basically doesn't mention the term "clouded leopard". If it weren't for the picture captions a reader of that article would be hard-pressed to know that it was even about clouded leopards. And should the disambiguation hatnote for this article link only to the Sunda, or also give the user the option of chosing the Neofelis article? Chrisrus (talk) 13:33, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

Note a link appearing with footnotes to source a particular statement and in external links is not automatically an undesired duplication, as it serves different function. That analog to citing a page from a book in the footnotes does not mean having the same book is an undesired duplication or redundant. The same link or (or sources) can serve different purposes and hence show up repeatedly in different section. The purpose of further reading section and external links is to provide readers access to additional information or alternative representations about the article's subject. Readers looking for those are usually not traversing the list of footnotes, the purpose of which it is to source individual facts and which may or may not have comprehensive additional information, but they directly jump to the further reading and external links section and hence well suited candidates for additional information/alternative representations should be listed there, independent of the fact whether they have been used in the footnote section already or not.--Kmhkmh (talk) 21:24, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

While I agree that such a link is not automatically an undesired duplication, I don't agree that this is such an instance. The IUCN page is most useful, to my mind, for sourcing the "Vulnerable" status; it seems to me that the other information that it provides is already in the article (and, if not, it can easily be added, since it isn't extensive), so there's no real need to add it as a further link when it's already there. IMO, it provides no additional information, and no significant "alternative representation", so I don't see any need for it. To my mind it's just unnecessary. Anaxial (talk) 22:09, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

You can see it way (if you don't care for alternative representation at least), however by that argument you'd need to remove all entries under external links except the video maybe. They all add about zero to the article and contain the same or even less information than the IUCN link.--Kmhkmh (talk) 22:54, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

That may well be the case, and if so, I'd agree that they should not be included, per the first point at

WP:EXT "it is not Wikipedia's purpose to include a... comprehensive list of external links related to each topic." Anaxial (talk

) 21:36, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

Well strictly speaking aside from the videos they don't really provide real additional information, however I don't want argue for there removal and there's a tendency of overusing WP:WEB with a literalism of certain formulations in the guideline anyway. The line you've quoted however is not at odds with the current links anyhow, we only have a few links and there absolutely no danger of this turning into a comprehensive link list nor is there any issue with spam or questionable low quality content regarding the current links.

I still think though, that the iucn link could/should be listed under external links. But this is a completely marginal issue not worth having a lengthy argument about. There is no significant change in quality or usefulness to readers in adding or removing the link. So as far as I'm concerned if other editors want to remove the iucn link from the external links section and feel strongly about it, I'm not going to stand in their way.--Kmhkmh (talk) 14:47, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

I support Anaxial's view that placing the link to the IUCN entry is redundant. Moreover: is usually not listed as ext link in other articles. All the other currently listed entries are indeed meaningful to guide interested readers. They are not referenced in the text as they do not provide peer-reviewed info, which is always given preference in wikipedia articles. --BhagyaMani (talk) 12:44, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

Great !! - BhagyaMani (talk) 14:57, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

Hi ‎Kmhkmh. As much as I appreciate your efforts in editing and adding this map, but it does show north-western India and the southern part of the Tibetan Plateau as being part of the historical range, which is not correct: there are NO historical records indicating that clouded leopards ever occurred farther west than central Nepal, or north of the Nepal-Tibetan, Sikkim-Tibetan, or Bhutan-Tibetan border. The area north of these borders is already Trans-Himalaya, i.e. north of the Himalayan range and constitutes alpine habitats at altitudes above 4000 m. Note: the highest altitudinal record from Sikkim (Sathykumar et. 2011) is still from south of Himalayan peaks. Can you change the map accordingly ? -- BhagyaMani (talk) 14:34, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

Frankly I'm getting a bit annoyed, you are essentially arguing about a few misplaced pixels on large scale map (for an approximate range) as far as "north of the himalayas" is concerned (considering at the same time you didn't seem to be bothered that the actual distribution section of the article didn't even mention southern China). The slightly more western range is based on reputable source which is given in the commons description.

I already changed the map that there is no green area on the Chinese side in the Himalaya region. In addition need to keep how such range maps (on that scale) work, they give an approximate overall range and potentially include a lot of smaller areas where the animal locally does not occur. Obviously the cat does not live in local river, lakes, alpine regions and rocky peaks covered by the green area. This btw holds of course for the map for the current range as well (and the one created by the IUCN), the colored areas of which contain small local alpine areas and rocky peaks as well.--Kmhkmh (talk) 15:08, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

This is not intended to annoy you, nor am I arguing about rivers and lakes. But if you insist to place a map showing historical distribution in this article, then lets better get this as accurate as possible. The above mentioned map includes north-western India, although not even Pocock knew of records farther west than Nepal, or farther north than the Himalayan foothills, which are located south of the northern border to Tibet. The four individuals described by Dinerstein and Mehta (1989) was a quite a surprise at the time as this was the first record indicating central Nepal as north-westernmost distribution limit for clouded leopards. --BhagyaMani (talk) 19:56, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

We need a reasonable accuracy for a large scale map and not "as accurate as possible" in particular if we didn't even bother so far to have a roughly accurate as text. Having said that there of course nothing wrong with improving the map if needed.

As far as the northern border in the Himalayan (foothills) is concerned I told you already that with given scale of the that makes a difference of about 1-3 pixels only, which is within expected precision for such a map.

If I understand correctly the article you cite (I could only assign the abstract right now) is talking about extending the current range westward and not the historic one. In fact it even seem to suggest that the clouded leopard were likely to have lived that area before the habitat got changed by humans. Note again the map is about the assumed historical range (before significant habitat changes by humans) and based on a reputable source (Grzimek's Animal Life Encyclopedia) that includes the foothills up to the Pakistani border. If you don't agree with that source, please provide a source explicitly stating, that the historical range of the clouded leopard never extended west of central Nepal or was at least unlikely to do so.--Kmhkmh (talk) 20:29, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

I have no idea how Grzimek (or the respective compiler of this encyclopedia chapter) came to state that clouded leopards were historically found up to the Pakistani border. Which is the period of time understood by Grzimek as historical range, and on what kind of (fossil) findings is this assessment based ? There exists not a single description of a clouded leopard WEST of Nepal. All the 19th century records are from EAST of Nepal such as Griffith's Felis nebulosa from Canton, China. Read Pocock : his text is referenced in the article. Hodgson described the first clouded leopard from Nepal in 1843 without stating explicitly from which area in Nepal he obtained the specimen, but likely not from as far west as the western border to India but from somewhere closer to the Kathmandu Valley where he was posted at the time. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 22:05, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

Well Hodgson actually describes (mistakenly) the clouded leopard in Tibet as well from what I've read, but that's beside the point here.

The map in Grzimek supposedly describes the (assumed) range in the 1950-1970 era. However the scale of the map is even a few factors greater than ours so the graphic less precise (though it clearly covers the foithills up to the Pakistani border). Nevertheless beside the fact that such maps tend to be somewhat crude to begin with, it could be an oversight/error/"graphical typo", if there indeed no other sources at all mentioning a population west of Nepal. If you've sampled enough authoritative sources to be reasonable sure of that, then I'll take your word for it. In the meantime I had browsed some additional literature myself as well (including 19th century sources) and couldn't find anything explicit for something west of Nepal. In the light of that I will modify the map accordingly (assuming no additional information regarding a range west of Nepal will surface within the next days). --Kmhkmh (talk) 22:38, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

In which of Hodgson's texts did you read about CL in Tibet ?
Grzimek himself is certainly knowledgeable about the Serengeti, and renowned for his conservation efforts there, no doubt ! But I have never seen this encyclopedia cited in any article about cats, nor in notable compilations such as Nowell and Jackson (1996), or Sunquist and Sunquist (2002). Since CLs have not been hunted as extensively as Panthera species, their distribution range did not decrease in the past 150 years; suitable habitat therein surely did. Therefore, instead of preparing a map showing a supposedly assumed historical (?) CL distribution, it would make more sense to prepare one showing the decrease in forest cover over the last 100 or so years in those countries where CLs occured and still do. --BhagyaMani (talk) 10:37, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

Grzimek's encyclopedia is comprehensive general animal encyclopedia (probably the biggest ever published), the material was compiled by a large team of international researchers with Grzimek being just being the editor in chief. He also contributed material himself, but the bulk of the material is not by him and most likely not the section about the clouded leopard. However since the first edition was published in the late 60s/early 70s the material is a bit dated (unless you have the extensively revised edition by Hutchison, which I don't). Of course you find it rarely cited, since it is a general animal life encyclopedia and researchers usually cite journal publications or more specialized books/monographs, but you will its authors cited all over the place.

Hodgson is cited in Brehm's Tierleben edition from the 19th century (the grand daddy of all animal encyclopedias). It literary writes that Hidgson claims the cat occuring on the Tibetan plateau as well, but dismisses the claim as unlikely due to the clouded leopard being forest forest bound.

One can show the forest degradation in addition, but that's that different map with requires a different dataset (I don't have) and that doesn't really tell much about the clouded leopard as such, as it adapts to different forest types and doesn't necessarily occur in every forest, that was (potentially) suited for it.

The idea of the historical/former range is simply to give readers an approximate visual idea, what the range looked like before increased human influence on its habitat changed it significantly. Such maps are not uncommon and useful and you find the in other wp animal articles as well (see cougar, lion, jaguar, leopard, tiger, etc.).--Kmhkmh (talk) 11:43, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

Brehm has apparently gotten this wrong : Hodgson did not write anything about CL, but only published a drawing titled Felis macrosceloides. It was Gray who assumed that the 2 skins and one skull sent by Hodgson in the 1850s to the British Museum was collected in Sikkim or Tibet. As mentioned above : the CL range countries did not decrease since the early 19th century descriptions; CL still occurs in all the countries from which they have been described, so that a "historical" map will not look different from the map currently shown in the taxobox. "Historical" distribution of the cougar and Panthera that you list is a different story anyway, as they have been "eradicated" in many parts of their former (19th century) range, which is not the case for CL. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 13:40, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

What are you talking about? The current taxobox shows a lot of isolated population of what used to be one a continuous area, not mention that it vanished from Hainan and Taiwan completely.--Kmhkmh (talk) 13:45, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

You're right of course re: CL extinct in Hainan and Taiwan. --BhagyaMani (talk) 14:22, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

I removed this copy-pasted info from the section Distribution and habitat:

The highest population of clouded leopards are thought to be in the forests on the island of Borneo, but they are still threatened by deforestation. ("Clouded Leopard." A-Z Animals. http://a-z-animals.com/animals/clouded-leopard/ 19 Apr. 2013.)

because there are only Sunda clouded leopards in Borneo. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 09:46, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

Dto. from the section Ecology and behavior for the same reason:

In a recent study, the Sunda clouded leopard was finally observed on tape. After analyzing the footage, scientists concluded the cats were mainly nocturnal, although there was some crepuscular and diurnal activity by a few individuals. Their feeding habits showed there were six potential ungulate species upon which the leopards were preying, mainly the Sambar deer and greater mouse deer. Another interesting observation made was that the bearded pig had increased nocturnal activity in areas where the clouded leopard was absent, and had decreased activity where the leopards were present. This could be evidence that the bearded pig might also be prey of the clouded leopard, although more information in the field is needed before making concrete conclusions. (Hearn, Andy. "Bornean Clouded Leopard Programme: New Paper: Clouded Leopard & Prey Activity Patterns." http://borneanwildcat.blogspot.com/ 27 Mar. 2013. Web. 19 Apr. 2013.)

-- BhagyaMani (talk) 12:59, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

On http://animals.nationalgeographic.com/animals/mammals/clouded-leopard/ it says

Somewhere between the small cats, which can purr, and the big cats, which can roar, are the clouded leopards that make their home in the tropical forests of Southeast Asia.

On http://animals.sandiegozoo.org/animals/clouded-leopard it says

Cloudeds can purr like the small cats, but they also have a low, moaning roar, a soft chuffle, a growl, a hiss, and meows as part of their calls.

But on http://www.torontozoo.com/exploretheZoo/AnimalDetails.asp?pg=377 it says

Vocalizations are characteristic of members of the family Felidae, which include growling, mewing, hissing, and spitting. Clouded leopards do not purr... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.241.78.24 (talk) 00:00, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Clouded leopard/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following