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Discussion of reasons for decline of ethnic groups
I think that if repression figures heavily into a groups history, or reason for disappearance, it is worth mentioning. Even fled is a joke, as about as many killed as fled, and many of those who did survive worked for years in Partisan or Soviet camps before being sent to West Germany or wherever. The entry for Jews lists that most were killed by the Nazis, when also many fled (that those who could flee did goes without saying). In any case, if the Jewish entry has the word killed, then the German one should to. If the Jewish entry has the word Nazis, then the German one should have the word Partisans or whatever designation (eager/indiscriminate anti-fascist liberators), since else it makes it seem like they fled/were killed by all other citizens of Vojvodina.
Well, if we start now to write here about persecutions of varios ethnic groups there will be no end of this, and we would have a POV article. Yes, there is mention that Jews were killed, but Jews were small nation in the region, and the reference to what happened with the Jews does not affect the NPOV nature of the article. The main problem here are the relations between the 3 largest nations of the region: Serbs, Hungarians and Germans. So, if the one write that Germans were persecuted by the "evil Serb partisans", and not write that Serbs also were persecuted during the war by the German troops, that would be POV. Also, I know that most of the Germans left from the region before the partisans took control of it, thus only a smaller number of them was later persecuted by the partisans. Second thing: those partisans who persecuted them were also a relatively small number of individuals, while most of the partisans were just ordinary people who joined to the partisans simply to protect their own lifes during the war. I think that this article should only briefly to say something about various ethnic groups, while if somebody want to know more about Germans or Danube Swabians, he have links to those articles, where he can read this. I am sure that you can write all of this about persecutions in that two articles. PANONIAN(talk) 22:48, 5 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
in the spirit of compromise i can accept the word fled and the omission of the word killed (though my understanding is that only half the preWWII population lived to see 1950, for various reasons), but is it a problem to say fled the partisans? i am giving a lot here - even to Germany is possibly untrue, since many left Yugoslavia heading East or are still lying there. In any case, I didnt say evil Serb partisans. if people want to decide whether partisans were evil or serb, theyll have to read the partisan article (tito, for instance, was no serb, and the goal of fighting nazis is certainly not evil). I only think that if there are former minorities in the vojv. that have since disappeared/been erased, we should mention when, and by whom, either for all groups that are no longer, or for none. that seems neutral to me - I dont really see the fact that the Germans were a larger group than the Jews making it less important to mention their reason for disappearance. On the contrary... - Adammathias
Listen: there were 350,000 Germans in Vojvodina before the war, and about 250,000 of them left from the region together with the withdrawal German army, before partisans took control of the region. The remaining 100,000 were the subject for persecution. Also, it is not quite correct that those 250,000 fled the partisans, but they fled the Soviet Red Army. Partisans came after Red Army (or together with it at least). Also, it is the main difference between Germans and Jews, since most of the Jews were killed or deported during the war, while most of the Germans escaped before they could became a subject for persecutions. Second thing, during the war, Serbs also were persecuted and thousands of them were held in prison camps or expelled. The only difference between Germans and Serbs here is that Serbs returned to their homes after the war, and Germans did not. So, is that difference a good reason to write here only about persecuted Germans and not about persecuted Serbs too? It is good that you said that the one who want to know who were partisans should to read the "Partisans" article, because the one who want to know more why Germans fled should to read Danube Swabians article. However, the kind of compromise I would accept would be to write that most of the Germans colaborated with German troops during the war, and that this was a reason why partisans persecuted them. Every consequence have its root somewhere, right? PANONIAN(talk) 02:02, 6 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
One more thing, it is also not correct to say that these two groups (Germans and Jews) dissappeared from the region, since today you still have some Germans and Jews who live here. PANONIAN(talk) 02:08, 6 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
All right, I added this sentence there: "As a consequence of the World War II events in Yugoslavia, most of the German community fled afore the Soviet Red Army and Yugoslav Partisans, and went to Germany and other countries." Ok now? PANONIAN(talk) 16:01, 6 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah I saw - that's great. Hvala lepo.
Adammathias
Inclusion of date of first settlement
Swabian settlement is fairly recent in the grand scheme of things, but they were little people reluctant to leave their villages, not 3rd Reich imperialist administrators who pulled out once the tide turned, but without adding date of arrival it seems as if they came and left with the Nazis.
Jews
Hi PANONIAN! As far as I know, many Jewish families, especially the well-to-do assimilated ones spoke German and/or Hungarian in Vojvodina (as in all of the Kingdom of Hungary).
Matyas Rakosi, the infamous dictator came from such a family. See also Magyarization, an otherwise quite crazy article.--Tamas 18:06, 27 January 2006 (UTC)[reply
]
I know that, as in many places in eastern Europe, in most German towns in the Vojvodina there would be a couple Jewish families who were essentially part of the German cultural island - well integrated (or assimilated as Tamas says) in terms of friendships, and speaking Swabian and not so much Yiddish - usually as shopkeepers (often for clothing and other household necessities). Adam Mathias 20:56, 28 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Temerin
The municipality of Temerin have 3 settlements: Temerin, Sirig and Bački Jarak. In 1991, Hungarians were majority in the town of Temerin, while the municipality of Temerin had Serb majority. Here is data for Temerin municipality from 1991 census: http://www.anem.org.yu/mape/ops/dg80446-en.htm Serbs and Montenegrins (52.99%), Hungarians (38.68%). Since this article mention only municipalities and not settlements with Hungarian majority, then better place where you can writte that Hungarians were majority in the town of Temerin is
Hungarians in Vojvodina article which have detailed section about setllements with Hungarian majority. PANONIAN(talk) 15:39, 12 November 2006 (UTC)[reply
]
But why do the demographic maps of 1991, like this one: [1], show an ethnic majority? Oh, sorry now I see: There are two little areas not painted in rosa, around Temerin.
"There are two little areas not painted in rosa, around Temerin". Exactly. :))) PANONIAN(talk) 16:41, 12 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
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