Talk:Fatah–Hamas conflict

that's a valid question. but there is not really any specific answer. It depends on what the general consensus slowly turns out to be. However, one consideration is that basically, any time you deal with matters relating to Palestinians, you will find a large number of editors who wish to stick to their own version of the narrative, regardless of what is actually happening to the Palestinians, and many of whom don't really care about actual conditions for Palestinians anyway. So for that reason, I would rather avoid this whole issue, and the whole debate. there is plenty of time to refer to a "Palestinain civil war" a few months from now, depending on what becomes standard usage. There is no reason to adopt a term now which might seem to some to be an under-handed way to impose a different meaning on the conflict and on the related issues. --Sm8900 16:48, 15 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thats what I thought it was, which, again, isnt a particularly compelling reason. What you said earlier, that this is definitely a civil war, but some disagree so we cant call it one, is inherently misunderstanding what Wikipedia's NPOV policy is. By deciding not to call it what it is, because a POV disagrees, is actually giving weight to that POV and in violation of NPOV. We dont try and equally weigh different points of view, we just go with what is verifiable and what is from reliable sources. Earlier, someone said something to the effect of "it doesnt matter what it really is, it matters what reliable sources say it is," and that is how things work here. Given that the majority of reliable sources in English are calling it a civil war, I think this is the only reasonable course of action. It certainly coincides with our independent analysis, which isnt enough on its own, but when taken with the bulk of articles referring to it as a civil war, it just adds further credibility to it.

What I recommend is to rename it back to civil war, and if we manage to find an article talking about the "name controversy," that would be worthy of a section in this article. But we go with names that english speaking reliable sources use, and to abandon this policy because a certain POV may or may not disagree with it is to abandon NPOV. ~Rangeley (talk) 17:02, 15 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Further, by keeping a "move protection," we can avoid any potential move war that a controversy might carry. ~Rangeley (talk) 17:04, 15 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, I disagree, as I don't think that there is so much objective evidence for the term "civil war" being used by reliable sources much more than they use other terms. the current name seems totally neutral, not at all related to any POV at all. I care more about the article content, and do not think the article title is such a major issue. thanks. --Sm8900 17:11, 15 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I also disagree. And frankly one could say the same about your opinion. Wouldn't using your "POV" be NPOV? Is your opinion not a POV? Is a POV just a bad opinion? --JGGardiner 17:46, 15 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I think there is a misunderstanding here. The policy here is to go with what reliable sources say. My point was, to not go with what reliable sources say simply because some people may have a POV which doesnt jive with the sources, is to violate NPOV. What reliable sources say is what they say. I dont really understand how this became personal - if my view that it was a civil war was in dissonance with what reliable sources say, it would certainly be a violation of NPOV to not state what was verifiable simply because of my POV. ~Rangeley (talk) 17:52, 15 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I disagreed with you but I didn't think it was personal. But what makes you think this is verifiably a civil war according to the sources? Does five stories make it verifiable? Ten? Twenty? There are plenty of sources that don't use the term also. I could post many but it would be a waste of space. The source that Elliskev posted above says that the media is going out of its way not to use the term. If you can verify for me that this is the consensus term, I'd be happy to support it. But I'm curious how might to do that. --JGGardiner 18:20, 15 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I realize google news isnt an infallible test, however with over 10,000 results, the term seems to have pretty widespread use [3] It seems to be the most widespread designation given to this, and all of the analysis pieces I have seen (opinions, editorials) have been stating its a civil war. Unlike with Iraq, where there was significant opposition to the term stated in editorials that was ultimately deemed less significant than the majority of english speaking press outlets which referred to it as one, there isnt significant opposition, at least from what I have found. Sources agree that its meeting the criteria, and even the ones which do not explicitly call it a civil war note the same aspects.

As to the one he found about the media trying not to use the term, that seems to be building a conspiracy where there is none. Opinion pieces from across the spectrum have been labeling it a civil war. ~Rangeley (talk) 19:03, 15 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

And also, it is being referred to as a civil war by the parties involved, something not even acheived in Iraq. ~Rangeley (talk) 19:05, 15 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I don't really mind the use of a google news test but I think a search there shows the problem with claiming some kind of consensus term. While Palestinian civil war comes up with a lot of hits (10,561 at the moment) Palestinian conflict returns almost as many (8,208). Palestinian fighting gets about as many hits as those two combined (18,070). The exact phrase "Palestinian Civil War" (all in quotes) only returns 137 hits compared to 1,725 for "Palestinian fighting" and 1,525 for "Palestinian conflict". And of course one should note that many of the returns for civil war, including several on the first page at the moment, say that there are fears of a civil war and are thus dismissing the possibility that what is happening now constitutes one. So, while I think that it is fair for one to call this a civil war and if I were a newspaper editor I wouldn't object to the term and I might even use the term myself, I think that it is hardly consensus. But for Wikipedia I think that in the absence of a consensus term, we should use the most neutral formulation. That might change tomorrow or the day after but I don't see anything like a consensus term right now.

I don't agree with the American Thinker piece. I just meant to say that it is the only source we have which talks about the naming process. Every other source presented was just to use for counting heads. --JGGardiner 19:49, 15 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

There's two governments now that control territory and officially don't recognize eachother as legitimate... Normalphil 13:30, 18 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I guess as long as Palestinian civil war redirects to the article, I'm fine... Lots of good arguments on both sides. That American Thinker 2-or-3 sentence article says it all, though. However, I am aware of what Wikipedia is and what it isn't... --Elliskev 02:15, 16 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Since the United States seems to be backing Fatah, do you think that this may be yet another theater in the War on Terror?

US support does not make it part of the war on terror. Nor if everything the US does related to the War On Terror.Narson 20:14, 15 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Furthermore,

Template:War on Terrorism is big and ugly and would clutter up this article. Batmanand | Talk 09:15, 16 June 2007 (UTC)[reply

]

The WOT template NOW uses code so it only appears as one line until you expand it. Second its looks are not important just that it supplies a lot of info in one space is. Third and finally all this is irrelivent if we don't have sources saying the US supported Fatah with weapons and equipment, and that that support is part of the WOT. Hypnosadist 10:46, 16 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Here a story from the Beeb [4] that discusses US-Fatah talks at the moment. Hypnosadist 13:38, 16 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I was being somewhat ironic; what the template looks like is - as you say - utterly irrelevant to its place in the article. Batmanand | Talk 19:12, 16 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

One good reason (or two or three) the conflict can't be a part of the war on terror is that Hamas is actively opposing al Qaeda, was instrumental in getting the release of western hostages and offered to have talks with the US and Israel to reach a compromise (which was refused). Wayne 21:06, 29 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The article says that Abbas intends to rule by presidential decree. But it also says that he has appointed a new government. That seems somewhat contradictory. Is the first part outdated? --JGGardiner 00:26, 17 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Actually I think it simply reflects the fact that while the head of a state in a parliamentary system does have the right to choose whomever he wants to form a new parliamnentary coalition, it is not consider a real coalition if it does not includes a plurality of elected legislators. So if Abbas is simply choosing any of the new parties to form a new government, that is by definition a presidential decree, even if it preserves the outward forms of parliamentary government. hope that is helpful. --Sm8900 17:54, 17 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I would suggest to remove that template, since Israel doesn't play a role in this conflict. --213.155.224.232 12:05, 18 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed and done. Neither side would particularly want Isreal's help. Jon 21:03, 19 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Actually Fatah has asked repeatedly for Israel's help. And it looks like they will now get it... ابو علي (Abu Ali) 14:53, 21 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

We spoke about that and then decided to add the template AND A FOOTNOTE. We will remove or keep the template according to the future events. So please extend the footnote but DO NOT remove the template ;) The conflict is as much important for

Israeli-Palestinian conflict as 2000 Camp David Summit

for example. Twice are PARTS of the bigger conflict it's obvious. ;)

This BBC article covers The execution of al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades commander Samih al-Madhun and the you tube videos that are now being released. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/6221694.stm Hypnosadist 16:21, 21 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The infobox says that this conflict is part of the Arab-Israeli conflict. While it's definitely related to the Arab-Israeli conflict, and has a lot to do with it, I don't think that it is directly a part of the conflict. For other examples, see

When in doubt, blame the Jews. --HanzoHattori 15:43, 23 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Oh please, I dont think there is much doubt since the critical issue for Hamas and Fatah is the same, recognition of Israel. It would make no sense to seperate this internal conflict from the larger Israeli-Arab conflict. Gortfromort 11:03, 24 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It most certainly is not a part of the Arab-Israeli conflict, as it only fits one of the two criteria required. But just because a war involves Arabs does not mean that its automatically part of the Arab-Israeli conflict. ~Rangeley (talk) 15:23, 27 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It is definitely part of the Arab-Israeli conflict topic, and part of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict topic; in addition the conflict itself is definitley part of both those larger conflicts. I agree the main issue is recognition of Israel. --Sm8900 15:36, 27 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Part of the topic perhaps, but not part of the conflict AFAICT. Tewfik^Talk 19:00, 29 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

That’s the problem with infoboxes – they try to boil everything down to a one line or yes/no answer. Sometimes things are more complex than that. Usually things are more complex than that. The infobox should just give the undisputed basic info and leave the context to the article in my opinion. --JGGardiner 19:18, 29 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

http://www.maannews.net/en/index.php?opr=ShowDetails&ID=23051 --

I agree that Fatah-Hamas conflict is related to the Israeli-Palestinian/Arab conflict, but it clearly isn't part of it. Alinor (talk) 07:15, 30 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

What the heck? Is this by the same people who blame the latest Palestinian riots in Lebanon on the "Welsh club"(???) on youtube? --HanzoHattori 22:46, 3 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This is an interesting article on the US funding of Dahlan/Fatah http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2008/04/gaza200804 Delad (talk) 02:57, 4 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

What about Israeli support and coordination with Fatah to kill Hamas leadership? Or the numerous weapons funding that Fatah receive from the Israelis? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wallykhan (talk • contribs) 09:47, 26 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Can we change that section title to something more neutral sounding? --JGGardiner 17:29, 5 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

How can it be? We haven't seen fighting for a month because the two parties cannot fight each other because one is in Gaza and the other is in WB, they cannot reach each other because there's Israel in the middle.

More, no sources are mentioning ongoing conflict. --

More relevantly, the very fact they are unable to govern together is what qualifies this as an ongoing conflict. The fact they are both in power, separately and simultaneously, is what makes this a major conflict in Palestinian society, regardless of the actual level of violence at a particular point in time. --Steve, Sm8900 14:00, 18 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

OK but it should be pointed out that warfare has stopped. --

Ч) 17:40, 18 July 2007 (UTC)[reply

]

Not properly, I expect we will be seeing more fighting soon. The Honorable Kermanshahi 11:35, 7 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Something could be written now about hamas's recent move, making public prayer illegal? this is definitly hamas fatah clashing in gaza, and in west bank people are doing the same but as a protest against hamas 213.6.3.25 15:07, 7 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know if this should be there, he might have been arrested but he wasn't arrested by Fatah but by Egypt wich is not a participant in this conflict so his arrest has not got anything to do with this conflict. The Honorable Kermanshahi 07:36, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry, but none of the sources are cited, and the section is obviously very biased. Take this part for example: "The botched plan has rendered the dream of Middle East peace more remote than ever, but what really galls neocons such as Wurmser is the hypocrisy it exposed." That isn't up to par with Wikipedia's standards of neutrality.

And the section's main claim "The plan was for forces led by Dahlan, and armed with new weapons supplied at America’s behest, to give Fatah the muscle it needed to remove the democratically elected Hamas-led government from power.", doesn't have a single citation.

I'm going to remove this section from the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Alphabravo11 (talk • contribs) 03:29, 23 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The image

• That there is a non-free use rationale on the image's description page for the use in this article.
• That this article is linked to from the image description page.

The following images also have this problem:

• File:Fateh-logo.jpg

This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. --04:02, 11 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry folks, but I don't know how to edit the references properly. I believe the vanity fair will help with the reference that is being put in doubt in the 2006 elections section. The sentence, that puts that reference in doubt, right after the last reference in that section seems out of place and unlike usual wikipedia standards.

Here is another reference that can be added to the U.S. support of Dahlan and/or the Fatah 2006 campaign, http://www.csmonitor.com/2009/0112/p09s01-coop.html, "An inside story of how the US magnified Palestinian suffering" Christian Science Monitor written by "Norman H. Olsen served for 26 years as a member of the US Foreign Service, including four years working in the Gaza Strip and four years as counselor for political affairs at the US Embassy in Tel Aviv. He was most recently associate coordinator for counterterrorism at the Department of State. His son, Matthew N. Olsen, is the director of Explore Corps, a nascent NGO that uses outdoor education and youth programming to facilitate peace-building among young adults, with several current projects in the Gaza Strip." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.143.32.185 (talk) 04:33, 29 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

So I am surprised that the transcripts and meetings between Fatah, the Israelis, the Americans, and M16 haven't been added. It's clear that Fatah has been committed to attacking Hamas militarily and politically with the aid and tacit support of the Western powers.

http://english.aljazeera.net/palestinepapers/2011/01/201112512109241314.html http://english.aljazeera.net/palestinepapers/2011/01/201112511595595810.html http://english.aljazeera.net/palestinepapers/2011/01/2011125144345427365.html

Wallykhan (talk)wallykhan —Preceding undated comment added 09:45, 26 January 2011 (UTC).[reply]

Well now, Hamas and Fatah seem to have finally reached an agreement and I don't think their conflict should remain under the "ongoing" status... --Jaro7788 (talk) 19:49, 5 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Which bit of the article are you referring to ? Sean.hoyland - talk 20:00, 5 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I'll just go through and tweak it which hopefully will update to current status. CarolMooreDC (talk) 04:02, 6 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The background section strikes me as problematic:

• "By 2005, Israelis and Palestinians still had failed to implement the 2003
  withdrawn from Gaza in 2005, it had blocked Gaza from the outer world
  ." - This ignores the (highly relevant) reason for the blockade, namely Hamas' takeover of Gaza. This is particularly suspect since the blockade occurred concurrently to the armed conflict between Hamas and Fatah and is not historical "background".
• In the mean time, Israel advanced the
  WP:LABEL
  , especially considering that the article itself uses the word "settlement"
• "Since the conclusion of the 1993/1995 Oslo Accords by Israel and the Fatah-dominated PLO, Fatah and Hamas went different ways." - This is poor writing. It doesn't specify when the conclusion was and it doesn't specify what "went different ways" means. Considering that the Oslo period ended around 2001, this seems to contradict the next paragraph: "The tensions between Hamas and Fatah began to rise in 2005 after the death of PLO leader Yasser Arafat on 11 November 2004."
• In general, the text implies that Hamas and Fatah became separate and competing factions at some point after 1993. This ignores the broader context: that these organizations have different worldviews, ideologies and methodologies. GabrielF (talk) 06:22, 12 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• First, a background section is not the place to go into details; internal links are better. It may give information in broader context.
• Actually, the Gaza blockade succeeded the direct colonisation, with settlements populated by COLONISTS. It was there before Hamas' takeover. The blockade was strengthened after that.
• Indeed different worldviews were always there. But they went the same way of armed resistance, until the Oslo Accords.
• The Oslo period did not really end; Area C still exists.
• Rising of tensions does not contradict earlier tensions.
• "Hamas and Fatah became separate and competing factions at some point after 1993": See above. Tensions were there. They grew in 1993, and again in 2006.--Wickey-nl (talk) 16:29, 13 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

To explain the logic of the blockade and settlements part: By signing agreements, Fatah supported the continuation of the occupation. Of course not intended, but nevertheless as result. Hamas therefore could not, and cannot accept the agreements. Israel and the international community furthered, intentional, the polarization by financing only Abbas/Fatah. With inevitably the corruption, already started under Arafat.

Because it may be confusing, I adapted the article. --Wickey-nl (talk) 10:27, 14 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

First alinea

User:PLNR, stop your propagandistic edits and distortion of citations. You can add other views, not replace text you don't like. --Wickey-nl (talk) 11:39, 21 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• I would appreciate a more constructive input on your(Wickey-nl) part addressing the issues, instead of pointless accusations and edit warring.(Like I already asked you on your talk page, which you ignored) The issue in question here is this edit: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Fatah–Hamas_conflict&diff=591456134&oldid=591455654

In the background section, dealing with the vies of Hamas and Fatah following the conclusion of the 1993/1995 Oslo Accords. The source [5] clearly state that:

Hamas has dropped its call for the destruction of Israel from its manifesto for the Palestinian parliamentary election in a fortnight, a move that brings the group closer to the mainstream Palestinian position of building a state within the boundaries of the occupied territories. The Islamist faction, responsible for a long campaign of suicide bombings and other attacks on Israelis, still calls for the maintenance of the armed struggle against occupation. But it steps back from Hamas's 1988 charter demanding Israel's eradication and the establishment of a Palestinian state in its place.

I think it is clear that quote in the reference is misleading as it is citation of Hamas 2006 election platform(which is dealt in the next section, appropriately named "2006 elections..") instead of its view since 1993/1995 to 2006, which doesn't limited to fight to occupied territories but "eradication and the establishment of a Palestinian state in its place".

So my edit is exactly per source and fixes misleading wording, based on incorrect understanding of the section/refernce timeline. What are your reason for claiming it is "distortion of citations" and propagandistic(other than

WP:DONTLIKEIT) --PLNR (talk) 15:25, 21 January 2014 (UTC)[reply

]

• Also I would appreciate at least a basic explanation for your(Wickey-nl) revert here [6]. So what are your objections? again other than WP:DONLIKEIT and pointless accusations.

Because my edit pretty much followed the source. The date fix is per "the British plan, drawn up in .. in 2004"(not 2003, which refers to something else). The rest is based on: "Degrading the capabilities of the rejectionists" -- noting that not only Hamas was targeted but "other armed groups" , including "PIJ". The "counter-insurgence" is per source(and SE from second paragraph), expanded with"It lists suicide bombers and rockets as issues that need urgent attention" - to avoid confusion as to the nature of insurgence discussed(not against Fatah). Overall the edit intended to clear the nature of the Fatah plan, which was vague, borderline misleading and tad conspiratorial sounding. All of it was per source, anything more and I'd be plagiarizing the article. --PLNR (talk) 20:04, 21 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I will first adress the first issue (your edit summary: fixed distorted citation referring to Hamas 2006 platform not its view since 1995(and before)), which is the most serious one.

The source's title says:
Hamas drops call for destruction of Israel from manifesto.
The article reads:
Hamas has dropped its call for the destruction of Israel from its manifesto ... But it steps back from Hamas's 1988 charter demanding Israel's eradication and the establishment of a Palestinian state in its place. ..., and The manifesto makes no mention of the destruction of the Jewish state ..., and But the manifesto continues to emphasise the armed struggle. "Our nation is at a stage of national liberation, and it has the right to act to regain its rights and end the occupation by using all means, including armed resistance,", and the manifesto reflected the group's position of accepting an interim state based on 1967 borders but leaving a final decision on whether to recognise Israel to future generations. ..., and "Hamas is talking about the end of the occupation as the basis for a state, but at the same time Hamas is still not ready to recognise the right of Israel to exist," he said. "We cannot give up the right of the armed struggle because our territory is occupied in the West Bank and East Jerusalem. That is the territory we are fighting to liberate."

You deleted the relevant citation from the source and added: Hamas continued its armed for Israel's eradication and the establishment of a Palestinian state in its place. --Wickey-nl (talk) 12:33, 22 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

You are quoting out of context, please read the article again. Because except the section I already noted in my comment above, most of the article is dealing with Hamas electoral platform after 2006. Your quoteblock above is no exception. "Hamas has dropped its call for the destruction of Israel from its manifesto for the Palestinian parliamentary election... Gazi Hamad, a Hamas candidate in the Gaza Strip, yesterday said the manifesto reflected... [your quote follows]"Hamas is talking about the end of the occupation.." -- Since we are talking about the background section, which deals with time period before that, your quote is irrelevant here. So yes the text in the background section was changed to reflect Hamas position before the election not since, and the irreverent citation in the reference was dropped in favor of standard cite news template. --PLNR (talk) 14:31, 22 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The Background section is an attempt to explain the cause of the Fatah–Hamas conflict. In my view, it is correct to say that the basic difference between the two is armed resistance. No need to work that out in this section, which only would blur the picture.

Yet, the elections were before the begin of the conflict. While bringing it into this context, the quote is only used to show that Hamas is committed to armed resistance, in accordance with the text. No need to work that out in this section. --Wickey-nl (talk) 12:48, 23 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Great, so you agree that my edit fixed incorrect reference which mixed the timelines. You just don't like how it sounds. Personally, I think that noting that Fatah was working with Israel to find political solution, while Hamas was working to destroy it, blurs nothing, on the contrary it contrast better the contradicting approaches taken by each side. Which was the source of great amount of international pressure on Fatah, among other things leading to the events covered in the "Involvement of Britain, United States, Israel and Arab states" section.

Also speaking of wording in your edit here. Was it necessary to remove "political struggle" and "state-building efforts"? I intentionally put it there when I replaced the POV term "collaborating", to show that while they renounced armed struggle, they continued with political struggle, with the goal of state building. --PLNR (talk) 14:43, 23 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

By saying that I agree, you do the same as with the article: turn upside down the words. "Hamas continued its armed for Israel's eradication and the establishment of a Palestinian state in its place" is not an explanation of the conflict, but a POV-statement. And "collaborating" is a normal English word. --Wickey-nl (talk) 16:19, 23 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Lets go with what you agree with and what suggestion you have to offer? Because I am pretty sure that you disagree with final wording and not with what I said we agreed on in the previous post, but my opinion that followed.

I am not sure why you choose to argue about collaborating here, but while collaborating is a normal English word, like regime its meaning depends on the context, and here it has a negative connotation and is often thrown by one side at the other. More relevantly, more importantly "political struggle" is relevant, because you want to show what is their goal, not what no longer is. --PLNR (talk) 17:39, 23 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

collaborating is already a strong understatement. If we would say what Hamas realy thinks about Fatah's cooperation with Israel, at least until July 2013, it would read quite different and pretty much stronger. "political struggle" is not only ambiguous, but also not an element of the conflict. Nor are "state-building efforts".

While the Background section should be clear and unambiguous, it is not for extensive explanations, many details, and subtilities. I think the original wording of the first part was compact, clear and unambiguous. I hope you can agree that the principal split came after Oslo. --Wickey-nl (talk) 18:32, 24 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Let me be blunt, are you jerking me around? per your comment bellow, here with argument like "normal English word", because its obvious that you understand the concepts of NPOV and neutral wording, and your last comment show that you understand how that word place in Hamas/Fatah discourse.

Same for "political struggle", it is no more ambiguous then "armed struggle". Its very commonly used phrase for conflict worldwide, to distinguish armed from diplomatic method to achieve your goals. Neglecting to mention it implies surrender as oppose to changing tactics and Saying that Fatah changed its tactic from armed struggle to political struggle is crystal clear.(You don't want to mention state-building, no need, but it is one of the goals stipulated in the Oslo agreement).

To sum it up, the first principle differences between the two is political vs Armed struggle. While the second is working with Israel and trying to destroy it, which is very relevant because unlike the first difference it what puts them at odds, which is precisely the topic of the article. --PLNR (talk) 20:05, 24 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Replacing the word collaborating is and was not an issue for me. What disturbed was replacing it with some interpretations, especially combined with the following edits.

Political struggle is not so unambiguous here. How to reconcile with far-reaching collaboration or cooperation with Israel? What is political struggle? Diplomacy? It implies that Hamas rejected political struggle. Did Hamas reject it, or other parties? I would prefer something like "While Fatah renounced armed resistance, and cooperated with Israel, Hamas continued its armed fight against the occupation" (Oslo Accords already mentioned).

All Palestinians realised, far before Oslo, that destruction of Israel is an unrealistic goal. Use of your citation, while the source says it has been dropped is mood making and incitement, unless you provide other sources that prove otherwise. --Wickey-nl (talk) 13:35, 25 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Again there are two principle differences between the two at that time. First, is political vs Armed struggle/resistance/whatever. Second working with Israel and trying to destroy it, which is very important because unlike the first difference it what puts them at odds, and led to the friction that is explained in the British invovement section.. -- Do you have any alternative wording suggestions? Because vague assertions about what anyone realized is of no consequence. -

Furthermore since you obviously very concerned with accuracy and clarity, I took the liberty to quote what the current and another source says on this:

• "Under the Oslo peace accords, after recognizing Israel’s right to exist in 1993, Fatah led efforts toward a two-state solution with Israel. These meetings established the Palestinian Authority (PA), headed by Arafat’s Fatah party."
• "The charter also explains that Hamas uncompromisingly seeks the destruction of Israel, pursuing a Palestinian state that encompasses the Gaza Strip, the West Bank, all of Jerusalem, and Israel: “Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it." link

• "PA President Mahmoud Abbas advocates restarting the peace process and is a strong critic of armed "resistance" and attacks on Israeli civilians. His goal is to establish a Palestinian state in the Israeli-occupied West Bank and Gaza Strip, with East Jerusalem as capital."
• "Hamas's charter uncompromisingly seeks Israel's destruction. However, Hamas's Ismail Haniya, the prime minister of the unity government until it was dissolved in June 2007, has spoken of a long-term truce with Israel if Israel withdraws from territory occupied in 1967." link

I am looking forward to hear what suggestions you have. --PLNR (talk) 19:24, 25 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

You seem obsessed by the phrase "trying to destroy Israel", popular and carefully maintained and exploited in Israel to justify the occupation. There is, however, no disagreement about the illegality of that state. The issue of "trying to destroy Israel" or recognize it is not a separate one, but included in the agreements with Israel. Hamas' rejection of the signed agreements is obvious. To claim that Hamas seeks Israel's destruction cannot be based on the Charter, which is propagandistic. Moreover, AFAIK the Charter does not explicitely mention it as a goal of Hamas.

I see nothing vague. Expectations and motives for doing what they do. --Wickey-nl (talk) 16:25, 26 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

You time and again removed my citation about armed fight by Hamas, with a very strange reason, as it directly supports the claim. --Wickey-nl (talk) 16:31, 26 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Involvement of Britain

The second point regards a revert of your edit: [7]
The source's title says:
Palestine papers reveal MI6 drew up plan for crackdown on Hamas
The article reads:
British intelligence helped draw up a secret plan for a wide-ranging crackdown on the Islamist movement Hamas and The documents also highlight the intimate level of military and security cooperation between Palestinian and Israeli forces. and included detailed proposals for a security taskforce based on the UK's "trusted" Palestinian Authority contacts, outside the control of "traditional security chiefs", with "direct lines" to Israel intelligence. and Alistair Crooke ... said the British documents reflected a 2003 decision by Tony Blair to tie UK and EU security policy in the West Bank and Gaza to a US-led "counter-insurgency surge" against Hamas – which backfired when the Islamists won the Palestinian elections in 2006.

You changed ... in 2003 prepared a plan for a wide-ranging crackdown on Hamas in favor of the Palestinian Authority, which until then was dominated by Fatah. into: in 2004, British intelligence

It would have been nice if you thought to share those thoughts before your accusations and unexplained reverts, but as it stands we already past that. In my previous comment above, I explained my changes and presented the relevant segments from the article(Which you didn't thought to address here) so with that knowledge in mind do you still claim the edit is "propagandistic" or we can processed with it and if there are some minor wording adjustment you'd be able to make them. --PLNR (talk) 14:31, 22 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

My impression is that you are keen on including negative words about Hamas. Doing so on inappropriate places, erasing and distorting existing text appears to be propagandistic, indeed. It would have been nice if you had explained such drastic changes before, to make a revert unnecessary. Terroristic attacks may be mentioned, but in context on the right place. --Wickey-nl (talk) 12:48, 23 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

My impression is that you are keen on non constructive comments and accusations. Again, I am asking you to address the changes in the edit, which I already explained above: 1. fixed date 2. mention of PIJ as part of other armed groups the measures were conceived for(not just Hamas) 3. mention of radio Stations and Imams i.e. non violent measure to deal with incitement charges leveled at the PA 4. Expanding on the vague counter-insurgence plan to avoid confusion, right now it sound like a political crackdown as opposed to Fatah government upholding its security obligations to stop rocket fire and suicide bombers. All of which was directly noted in the source. If your objections are no longer valid then i'll put it back and we can continue from there normally --PLNR (talk) 14:43, 23 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I do not agree with the deletion of the key sentence "Documents published in Al Jazeera's Palestine Papers reveal that the British intelligence MI6 in 2003 prepared a plan for a wide-ranging crackdown on Hamas in favor of the Palestinian Authority, which until then was dominated by Fatah.", which perfectly reflects the essence of the article.

Collecting pieces of sources and compose them to one is called

"helped draw up a security apparatus for the Fatah-led Palestinian Authority to degrade the capabilities of the "rejectionists" faction noting Hamas and

How things sound is how you read it. And do not say that my objections are no longer valid. --Wickey-nl (talk) 16:19, 23 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

You already said that in previous post. what I asked is if you have any objections to the 1-4 issues(not the final wording) I outlined in previous post(e.g. do you agree the date is wrong. simple right?). so we can address them or if necessary continue and find a more suitable wording.--PLNR (talk) 17:39, 23 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know what you mean with 1-4 issues, but both years are correct. In 2003, the plan was decided, in 2004, the plan was worked out. I have no problems with saying only that "MI6 in 2004 drew up a plan", to follow the source. --Wickey-nl (talk) 18:32, 24 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

probably the 4 issues outlined in previous post, that I directed you to(Issues which I mentioned 3 times, numbered in recent comment so you could address them easily and now highlighted so you don't get confused).

As for 1. I can agree. with "MI6 in 2004 helped draw up a plan" which became a security blueprint for the Palestinian Authority.

As for point 2. Do you agree that the security measures mentions in the article(not the eye catching title) didn't target only Hamas? Seeing as Hamas is only directly mentioned as part of other armed groups, inconjunction with PIJ, under the title "rejectionists".

feel free to comment on 3 and 4 to.--PLNR (talk) 20:05, 24 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Re point 4, your proposals are inconsistent with the cited source which states: "British intelligence helped draw up a secret plan for a wide-ranging crackdown on the Islamist movement Hamas which became a security blueprint for the Palestinian Authority, leaked documents reveal. The plan asked for the internment of leaders and activists, the closure of radio stations and the replacement of imams in mosques....The bulk of the British plan has since been carried out by the West Bank-based PA security apparatus which is increasingly criticised for authoritarian rule and human rights abuses, including detention without trial and torture."

Your proposed text is unfortunate because you deleted sourced information and cherry picked two phrases from the source that are actually quotes from the leaked document: "Degrading the capabilities of the rejectionists" and "counter-insurgency". But you do not attribute them properly, giving the impression this is how the source describes the plan. On the contrary the source describes the plan as a "wide-ranging crackdown". Dlv999 (talk) 20:41, 24 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Re User:Dlv999, point 4: Your assertion that I deleted sourced information refers to "wide-ranging crackdown", predicated on the notion that the eye candy used for the article title, should be used as oppose to the actual details and specific quotes from that plan:

The British documents, which have been independently authenticated .. included detailed proposals.

It lists suicide bombers and rockets as issues that need urgent attention.

Under the heading "Degrading the capabilities of the rejectionists" ... Hamas and other armed groups ... PIJ [Palestinian Islamic Jihad]

While my reason was simple the clarify vague statements with details from the plan/security blueprint/security apparatus/Security Plan/etc.(per points 1,2,3,4 which I explained above). The only person that cheery picking here is you, hence the irrelevant parts of your quote to this discussion/sentence where we discuss the plan, not its implementation. Anyway, what about points 2 and 3 --PLNR (talk) 23:33, 24 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

point 4: First sentence is ambiguous now. While true that paper heading sometimes are promotional, this one is correct. The plan does not include a wide-ranging crackdown on Hamas, but the plan itself was a crackdown: British intelligence helped draw up a secret plan for a wide-ranging crackdown. Also in Palestine papers: MI6 plan proposed internment – and hotline to Israelis: "The Palestinian Authority's security strategy to crush Hamas and other armed groups on the West Bank" and "The leaked intelligence plan can be seen in retrospect as a blueprint for PA security control of the West Bank" and

"the documents reflected a 2003 decision by Tony Blair to tie UK and EU security policy in the West Bank and Gaza to a US-led "counter-insurgency surge" against Hamas".

Clear enough. We should refrain from clarifying in such complex cases, not interpret and leave it to the sources. As usage in WP.

As for point 2: This is about the Fatah–Hamas conflict. Mentioning other groups adds nothing in this context. As for point 3: You like to include rocket fire and suicide bombers to paint a dark picture, right? The details are irrelevant for the article. One can find it in the provided link. --Wickey-nl (talk) 17:01, 25 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Since this obviiously leading nowhere i.e. no constructive suggestions, only objections and hanging to specificwording used in one source, I have add a new souce to clarify things, and alleviate any claims about cheery picking etc[

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Fatah–Hamas_conflict&diff=592360087&oldid=592357533 here]. If you further objections please explain preferably with alternative wording suggestion, thank you.--PLNR (talk) 18:58, 25 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

In the context of the

Dt Mos Ios (talk) 17:55, 16 August 2014 (UTC).[reply]

Wiki demands that its content reflects a NPOV. This article, as per mid-December 2014 had an introduction to the “Background” section that was seriously skewed, consisting in essence of praise for Fatah and criticism of Hamas, with explanations for Fatah choices but none for those by Hamas. It also failed to provide any underlying context for these differences. My (Ericthe enquirer) edit, time-stamped ‘16:36, 20 December 2014‎’, was intended both to provide the Hamas motivations and at the same time provide the factors leading to these differences.

This edit was reverted in its entirety by

Once again without resorting to Talk page discussion, User:Tuylrnicracker666 reverted with the one-liner Edit Summary “WP:PRESERVE doesn't mean to not revert cherry-picking POV edits”, once again unsubstantiated. I reverted in turn, requesting that User:Tuylrnicracker666 take his/her dispute to the Talk page. User:All Rows4 reverted next, also without recourse to Talk, with the one-liner “Opinions (from an Op_Ed) can't be presented in Wikipedia's voice”. Even excluding the issue of reverting without proper discussion, given that there were three citations, this 'opinions' claim provides no analytical value at all. Once again I reverted, inviting User:All Rows4 to take the dispute to the Talk pages.

In order to provide for structure and reasoned discussion, I invite all interested parties to revert to the original 20 December edit, and to enter into discourse in Talk as to why text aimed at achieving a balance of motivations between Fatah and Hamas should be summarily deleted in its entirety; why the offered citations are potentially inappropriate; why text is POV; and what can be done to improve any (eventual) deficiencies; or why

As a result, I am making a

The word 'Welcome' in the middle of the third paragraph above, should read 'user:All Rows4' Erictheenquirer (talk) 09:29, 11 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Above comment edited to avoid incorrectly categorizing this page. DexDor ^(talk) 08:30, 8 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

In December 2014 I flagged a portion of text in the introduction to "Background" which was not supported by the text "Fatah renounced armed struggle against Israel pursuant to the Oslo Accords". In fact the citation noted that Fatah was created precisely to implement an armed struggle, and, in 2002, "that armed resistance within the Palestinian Territories was legitimate." For lack of a balancing

@All Rows4: I have multiple problems with your deletion:

• Your deletion did not simply delete a single citation that you disagreed with. Your deletion involved FOUR citations. Are you claiming that all FOUR are op-eds. If not, you are bordering on
  WP:VANDAL
  . That is distinctly serious
• To quote from the Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard: "Op eds (and even regular editorials), can be used only to source opinions held by their writers/publishers and are not a reliable source of "facts". Such opinions should be weighed for dueness and always need to be attributed in-line." You seem to agree that if the opinion (the source still undefined by you) is attributed, it is permitted. In that case why did you not simply request attribution of that single citation, rather that deleting a considerable amount of text based on FOUR citations? You are making a habit of not-good-faith ignoring of
  WP:PRESERVE
• You frequently quote
  WP:BRD
  cycle. I can post my on-going list of examples if you want this debate to become publically detailed.
• You also have a penchant for using supposed disregard for
  WP:ONUS
  in unsubstantiated fashion, in your posts. In this case, and given the [WP:ONUS]] definition, exactly what content is it that you dispute? Please provide analytical and substantive detail. I cannot respond to vagueness.
• I am impressed that you now advocate Talk discussion. :So, please provide Talk detail rather than a vague accusation that "op-ed" exists, in all three citations. And, secondly, please prove that op-eds are not permitted in "Wikipedia's voice" under any circumstances. If you are correct, it will require millions of man-hours of compliance-deletions in Wiki. Many thanks in anticipation. Erictheenquirer (talk) 22:02, 14 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

In compliance with Wiki requirements to DISCUSS, I will await your response for a number of days before reverting. Erictheenquirer (talk) 22:06, 14 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

From the top:

• WP:VANDAL
  is quite quite that "any good-faith effort to improve the encyclopedia is not vandalism". Drop it.
• No, what I said is that as you presented it , without attribution, is a clear policy violation, and as such, it can be removed on sight. If you want to add it, with attribution, you need to get consensus for it. I oppose its inclusion as it is (a) a non-notable opinion and (b) a one sided representation of the facts - the summit failed for many reason, not just the proportions of land swaps (which , BTW, were not 9:1)
• I am at aa loss as to what you think this comment is, or the one dated "00:20, 14 April 2015 (UTC)" arem if not discussion on the talk pages,
• I though it is very clear what the dispute is. Once again: You have added material form an Op-Ed, stating it in Wikipedia's voice. That's a policy violation. Even if attributed, that content has been opposed (by me) - and as such, the
  WP:ONUS
  is on you to get consensus for its inclusion, which you have not attempted to gain
• Read [[WP:RSOPINION]: "Some sources may be considered reliable for statements as to their author's opinion, but not for statements asserted as fact without an inline qualifier like "(Author) says...". A prime example of this is opinion pieces in mainstream newspapers."

All Rows4 (talk) 05:34, 15 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@

WP:Vandal

:

First example: In your edit - time-stamped 17:24, 20 April 2015 – you deleted the following text: “From 1993-2000, many aspects of the Israeli occupation of the West Bank and Gaza Strip deepened rather than abated. This discontent, further fed by the failure of the Camp David summit in July 2000, laid the groundwork for popular support for a more confrontational approach with Israel.” Your stated justification was that the reference was an op-ed. Please explain why you consider a publication to be an op-ed, when it is fully referenced, and, more importantly, comes from The Journal of Conflict Studies, published by the Gregg Centre for the Study of War and Society of the University of New Brunswick, with full peer-review openness by subscribing to the Public Knowledge Project and its Open Journal Systems. All of the specific reasons for Palestinian discontent contained in the examples cited below, with the exception of the unfavorable land-swap proposal (NYT citation), are contained in this JCS article. The other quoted sources serve to substantiate the JCS analysis further.

Second Example: In your edit - time-stamped 17:24, 20 April 2015 – you deleted the following text: "the continued building of settlements in the Israeli-occupied territories". This text is taken directly from the JCS article. The only reason that you have provided to date, is your claim that the secondary source is an op-ed. Please explain how you came to this conclusion that the following was an op-ed: a book published by I B Tauris (a publishing company dedicated to non-fiction scholarly writing with over 3000 titles [10]); written by Jan Selby, Senior Lecturer in International Relations and Director of the Sussex Centre for Conflict and Security Research; positively reviewed by The Telegraph as being 'an original and critical analysis', as 'multi-layered' and 'an original analysis' by Overdrive; and rating 75% 5-star on Amazon? An 'op-ed'?

Third Example: In your edit - time-stamped 17:24, 20 April 2015 – you deleted the following text: "... and the provocative statements made related to Sharon's visit to the compound of the Temple Mount,". This text is taken directly from the JCS article. In addition, the secondary source is a favorable quote in a CNN news item.

In all of the above cases, you deleted three sets of text and sources, camouflaged under your (unsupported) accusation of "op-ed" of the fourth (presumably the NYT) source. These are all cases of

WP:GAMING

.

Lastly, your claim that the following text from a Robert Malley piece from the Opinion Pages of the NYT is not permissible - "The summit failed, with its 1:9 land swap proposal unfavourable to the Palestinians (in area and quality)":

• In your original explanation, you wrote that OpEds need to be attributed. Fine; that add an 'attribute required' flag, not a deletion. Where is it "Wiki policy" that any unattributed opinion is "a clear policy violation" and that "it can be removed on sight". Please provide verifiable Wiki policy sources for both your assertions, otherwise please view them as automatically invalid.
• You claimed that we needed consensus for this text. Fine. So, what do you have against it, substanted please? You noted later that the 'unfavorable proportions" were not 9:1. So what were they? You don't say, let alone provide a source. Once again you are using an "argumentum ex silentio".
• I read on the Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard opinions from editors both for and against op-eds. One was that "if the assertion is credible and the publication is reliable" then they are OK. Were the swap proposals unequal in size and quality, and is the NYT
  WP:RS
  - favorable quoted his work.

To solve the current edit war, and given that this article is about the two main Palestinian factions, I am quite willing to substitute part of the existing text with the following: "In analyzing misconceptions regarding the failure of the summit, Robert Malley (a member of the US team at the Camp David summit) contends that, from the Palestinian perspective, the proposals contained an unfavorable 9-to-1 ratio in land swaps [existing Malley NYT citation], .... etc."

As is my custom, you have a number of days in which to respond before I make the changes to the current text. Erictheenquirer (talk) 12:52, 21 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

How gracious of you to let me "have a number of days in which to respond", especially seeing as it took you a week to respond to my points. Do let me know when this "custom" of yours gets codified as Wikipedia policy, and then I'll pay attention to it. Until then, I will edit this article according to established Wikipedia policy, and so will you. What this means, among other things, is that you made a

onus

is on you to prove such a consensus exits.

Before we get into the actual discussion, I will warn you , one final time, about calling my edits vandalism. When you invoke and quote policy like

WP:VANDAL

, which reads "Even if misguided, willfully against consensus, or disruptive, any good-faith effort to improve the encyclopedia is not vandalism.. Read it. Then read it again, to make sure you comprehend it. Note that even willfully disruptive edits (not that mine are - but even such edits) are not vandalism. This is the clear language of that paragraph, which contrary to your misrepresentation, applies to ANY good faith edit, just as I wrote. As you read and re-read it, I want you to direct your attention to the last sentence of that paragraph that says "Mislabeling good-faith edits as vandalism can be considered harmful." - that is what you have been doing here, repeatedly, even after being warned about it. If you continue, I will seek administrative intervention to stop it, and you will likely find your editing privileges suspended. Do yourself a favor and drop it.

To the content dispute itself: Even attributed, I object to the inclusion of Malley's opinion, as undue weight. Why would we privilege his opinion over others, such as his boss's opinion? That would be the much more notable opinion of President Bill Clinton, who placed the blame for the summit's failure squarely at Arafat's feet. Why would we include just this opinion, which is self-acknowledged as a minority position (he's supposedly "analyzing misconceptions" - the much more common opinion that the Palestinians are mostly to blame), and exclude the Israeli position? Why would we name just the land swaps as the cause for failure, and not the Palestinian insistence on full right of return? This article is not

WP:NPOV. To the extent that the summits' failure, 6 years BEFORE the conflict which is the topic of this article is even relevant to the background of the Hamas-Fatah conflict, the short sentence that relates the failure of the summit to support for confrontation with Israel is more than enough. All Rows4 (talk) 04:06, 22 April 2015 (UTC)[reply

]

@All Rows4:

• Do you deny that you lumped/hid the deletion of three perfectly sound citations under one that you claimed to be an unacceptable OpEd (a claim that have only now, for the very first time, taken the trouble to justify on Talk)? That lumping/hiding is
  WP:GAMING
  pure and simple.
• Do you seriously claim that such lumped/hidden deletions of sound citations and associated text are "good faith" editing; that such gaming edit tactics are aimed at "improving" Wiki? Really?Erictheenquirer (talk) 07:38, 22 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, these edits are good faith edits to improve the article, as explained, in detail, on this page. Another wiki policy for you to read, if you haven't already, is

WP:AGF. You've been violating that policy repeatedly. All Rows4 (talk) 14:18, 22 April 2015 (UTC)[reply

]

@All Rows4:Your "yes" means denial of my core question? That means that you deny that, on the supposed justification that one source was allegedly suspect because it was an OpEd, you deleted 3 other unchallenged sources and their text? You deny that? In that case please find evidence for your error in the "diff" - https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Fatah%E2%80%93Hamas_conflict&diff=654053872&oldid=654030536 with your brief but 100% cclear definition of "justification" for this action. Thanks to Wiki, our edit histories are fully documented for all to see.

• Therefore, when I have time, I will replace the good references, rephrase the paragraph to properly reflect that these were the Palestinian views (as per the main source - Journal of Conflict Studies), and remove the source which offends you and replace it with one that is less vulnerable to challenge, but says exactly the same thing regarding the land-swap proposal. Please bear the following in mind:
• This is an article about the Fatah-Hamas conflict. It needs to show where their views were in parallel, where they differed, and to what degree. As such, the official Israeli-US view on Camp David is irrelevant here, and hence there was no need for me to add a balancing POV.
• If you want timely responses to your posts, please Ping the intended recipient. It is both polite and more effective.
• Your lack of observance of
  WP:PRESERVE
  and, more importantly, of Gaming is recorded, with evidence, as was your "Trim" justification in a previous Gaming example.
• Given such evidence,
  WP:AGF caters for exceptions. I have observed them. Erictheenquirer (talk) 07:05, 23 April 2015 (UTC)[reply
  ]

The failure of the Camp David summit in July 2000 laid the groundwork for popular support for a more confrontational approach with Israel. Views explaining the Palestinian dissatisfaction are that the summit had failed because, from 1993-2000, many aspects of the Israeli occupation of the West Bank and Gaza Strip deepened rather than abated; the land-swap proposals were unbalanced, involving a 9:1 territorial exchange in favour of Israel; the continued building of Israeli settlements on Palestinian territory; and because of an intentionally provocative visit to the Temple Mount on 28 September 2000 by Ariel Sharon, then the leader of the Israeli opposition. name=JCS2003Jeremy Pressman (2003). "The Second Intifada: Background and Causes of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict". The Journal of Conflict Studies, Vol. XXIII, No. 2 Fall 2003.Nigel Parry (2002). "Misrepresentation of Barak's offer at Camp David as "generous" and "unprecedented"". Electronic Intifada.Clayton E. Swisher (2004). "The Truth about Camp David: The Untold Story". Nation Books.

@All Rows4, Gouncbeatduke, 70.50.122.38, Tuylrnicracker666, and Kendrick7: Proposed revision above to cater for various views. Erictheenquirer (talk) 19:57, 24 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

looks good. Gouncbeatduke (talk) 13:31, 25 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for flagging me. I haven't taken a discerning eye to this article in quite a while. Not a bad backgrounder all in all. As with all the articles about the

Israel-Palestine civil war, there's always a hint of a demand for a recursive backgrounder such that it's all someone else's fault, but you've seem to mostly given just the facts, imo. -- Kendrick7^talk 21:20, 26 April 2015 (UTC)[reply

]

I find this to be far too detailed for the background, and I specifically object to the "9:1" formulation, because it is false. The very source you bring to support it says Swaps proposed eventually were Israel annexing some 3% of the West bank, and providing Israeli land in exchange. I am find with a saying the Palestinians viewed the swaps as unequal, and that Arafat did not place much weigh on this. Additionally, the failure of the summit in July can't logically be the result of Sharon's visit in September. I changed to opening sentence to say these are views explaining overall Palestinian dissatisfaction, not with the Summit failure All Rows4 (talk) 21:34, 29 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• @All Rows4:, @Erictheenquirer:. I tend to agree with Rows4. The current variant, instead of noting the background of Hamas-Fatah conflict i.e. difference in their political goals in means to achieve them, and noting that failure of peace process headed by fatah, lead to an increase in support for Hamas.(lending to the rest of the section which covers the rise of Hamas power) It disproportionately and selectively focus on camp david details. --Elysans (talk) 12:36, 27 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The way I understand it, there are 3 main events. (1) Fatah attempt to work at diplomacy (and thus gaining legitimacy worldwide) (2) The peace accords were "unsuccessful" and, in ~2002, Fatah began to lose local support. (3) The Fatah leader, Arafat, death in 2004. --Elysans (talk) 15:10, 27 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

SYN

@Erictheenquirer:, after skimming over this section, I tend to agree with this comment you made:

"This is an article about the Fatah-Hamas conflict. It needs to show where their views were in parallel, where they differed, and to what degree. ..."

However, there are numerous differences between the two groups views, and I am concerned sources used above note only few of them, and doesn't doesn't explicitly provide the conclusion that they were the source of the conflict among the two groups.

Furthermore, I am concerned about the way this section is phrased. Right now it is appears that Hamas were pro peace, but only unfair things led it to reject the peace process moving to more "confrontational approach" ... I would like a source that shows that Hamas supported peace initiative or favored non confrontational approach prior to camp david--Elysans (talk) 12:36, 27 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Omitted info

After combing the history section, it appears that some information/sources has been omitted without real discussion. In this case pertaining to oslo:

"Since the conclusion of the 1993/1995 Oslo Accords by Israel and the Fatah-dominated PLO, Fatah and Hamas went different ways. While Fatah renounced armed struggle against Israel pursuant to the Oslo Accords, Hamas initiated a long campaign of suicide bombings and other attacks on Israelis."

While the removal ostensibly justified, being tagged with "Failed verification", upon closer inspection the info is valid, relevant (showing where the two parties methods diverged) just poorly worded and no one bothered to fix it. -- The source clearly state that until 1993 both sanctioned violence against Israel as a means to achieve a Palestinian state, however, since with the signing of the Oslo accords, as part of their efforts toward a two-state solution with Israel, they had to moderate (as oppose to renounce), recognizing Israel's right to exist.--Elysans (talk) 14:49, 27 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The Puppet AttilaTotalWar (24 edits since 31 August and already fully equipped; zero edits on talk pages, but consistently refering to them) apparently only wants to disrupt and obstruct.

The Reconciliation section was already 1:1 copied to Fatah–Hamas reconciliation process, presumely to plit off. It adds nothing to this article. --Qualitatis (talk) 14:50, 17 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Stop accusing other editors of bad behavior, let alone when you have a clear POV agenda.

You add content to your taste, placing all the blame on Fatah (using a one-sided opinionated source), while you pretend to delete sourced content that is completely relevant and related to the topic of this article, such as Hamas attempts to overthrow Fatah and other important information the article is lacking right now.--AttilaTotalWar (talk) 02:09, 18 September 2015 (UTC)[reply

]

The "content to my taste" are simply facts and I did not blame anyone. Source is thourough academic work done at the University of Oslo. The Hamas takeover is covered in the article and in Battle of Gaza (2007) as well. The Reconciliation attempts section still does not add anything to the 2007 events. It is clear who has the "POV agenda". --Qualitatis (talk) 06:55, 19 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

All that sourced information you want to remove is related to the context.--AttilaTotalWar (talk) 03:41, 20 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Fatah recognized Israel's right to exist and led the efforts toward a two-state solution with Israel, while Hamas maintained its charter and officially rejected peace process with Israel. http://www.pbs.org/wnet/wideangle/episodes/gaza-e-r/fatah-vs-hamas/1227/ Hamas initiated a long campaign of suicide bombings and other attacks on Israelis. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2006/jan/12/israel

The Hamas charter is from 1988, thus it cannot be connected to the 2007 conflict. Suicide bombings were during the Second Intifada, thus can also not be connected. Sources do not support. Both are POV edits. --Qualitatis (talk) 15:02, 17 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The section is talking about the Oslo Accords in the 1990s, not Second Intifada. That's why The Guardian says: "The Islamist faction, responsible for a long campaign of suicide bombings and other attacks on Israelis, still calls for the maintenance of the armed struggle against occupation. But it steps back from Hamas's 1988 charter demanding Israel's eradication and the establishment of a Palestinian state in its place."--AttilaTotalWar (talk) 02:12, 18 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The fact that it is mentioned in the source does not mean that you can add this inciting content. --Qualitatis (talk) 07:01, 19 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

It's factual information backed up by a reliable source and closely related to the topic, nothing to do with "incitement".--AttilaTotalWar (talk) 03:40, 20 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Follow up

Once the article has been refined and split, someone will need to go through these redirects and make sure they all point to the right location:

• Palestine Liberation Organization and Hamas
• PLO and Hamas
• History of Fatah-Hamas tensions
• Hamas-Fatah conflict
• December 2006 Hamas-Fatah clashes
• Hamas-Fatah clashes
• Palestinian Civil Skirmishes (December 2006)
• 2006 Palestinian civil skirmishes
• History of Fatah/Hamas tensions
• History of Hamas-Fatah tensions
• Palestinian civil skirmishes (December 2006)
• Palestinian civil skirmishes
• 2007 Gaza conflict
• النزاع بين فتح و حماس
• Wakseh
• Hamas-Fatah Conflict
• Palestine liberation organization and hamas
• Fatah-Hamas war
• Fatah-Hamas conflict
• Hamas-Fatah Agreement, 2011
• Hamas-Fatah Agreement
• Hamas-Fatah Reconciliation Agreement
• Gazan civil war
• 2011 Cairo reconciliation agreement between Palestinian factions
• Gaza war (2007)
• Gaza War (2007)
• Fatah–Hamas conflict
• Fatah–Hamas conflict (2007)
• Fatah–Hamas conflict (2006-2007)
• Fatah–Hamas conflict (2006–2007)

—Jenks24 (talk) 16:06, 30 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The first section of Background is very artificial and I don't see anything that clarifies the 2007 conflict. I propose to delete this bla bla. --Qualitatis (talk) 13:36, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

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"The reconciliation process and unification of Hamas and Fatah administrations has not finalized as of September 2015."

That was a while ago, mateys. --90.227.198.191 (talk) 20:09, 8 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with 90.227.198.191), but that is not the only reason. The structure and flow is a complete confusion. Sub-topics contain intersperse concepts and repeated content. Even more off-putting is that the time-flow is complete chaos. Reading it is most unpleasant, uninformative, and definitely not encyclopaedic. I suggest a reorganisation into logical units with an attempt to maintain timelines within each one. Erictheenquirer (talk) 06:38, 11 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Articles under WP:ARPIA are notorious for failing

I'm sorry, but you are not going to put an entire paragraph in the middle of the section just to copy-past an opinion article which is an extremely POVish interpretation of events by two known pro-Palestinian activists. It doesn't contribute to understand the simple fact that the international community suspended foreign aid after Hamas rejected to renounce violent struggle, recognize Israel and accept previous agreements. This is the fact of what happened in reality, not some "Israel/USA view". And if you see in the article an entire paragraph of 150 words just quoting some Israeli official, please let me know so we can remove it.--יניב הורון (Yaniv) (talk) 14:40, 27 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I agree putting such view is

WP:POV violation.--Shrike (talk) 14:48, 27 June 2018 (UTC)[reply

]

Also there is a problem of

WP:OR the sources in question should directly mention the topic of the article and they don't--Shrike (talk) 14:51, 27 June 2018 (UTC)[reply

]

The amount of space given to a minority view of Chomsky (which is clearly in minority - when they are arguing against Israel, US, EU, and the non-Islamist part of the PA) - is UNDUE. Global Research is not a RS - and Israel's role in the beginnings of Hamas (not Hamas itself - but the precursor of Hamas) - is a bit more complex than the quote presented.Icewhiz (talk) 14:59, 27 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Chomsky's suggestion that the

WP:EXCEPTIONAL) assertion that Hamas was "created" by Israel; there is no evidence that Israel offered Hamas any material support whatsoever, although it didn't crack down as hard on the budding movement as it might have when it controlled the Gaza Strip due to its belief that Fatah was the bigger threat.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 20:57, 27 June 2018 (UTC)[reply

]

The 2007 event was AFTER the election, not before. 2603:7000:A900:45DF:F479:7D22:D0FA:97BC (talk) 17:10, 9 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Fatah, a Palestinian political party, has a complex view of Hamas. Fatah often considers Hamas as a political rival and holds serious objections to some of Hamas' actions. Fatah has repeatedly accused Hamas of undermining Palestinian unity through violent actions, such as rocket attacks on Israeli targets and initiating conflicts.

Fatah also accuses Hamas of undermining peace efforts by sticking to a more militant approach instead of seeking a diplomatic resolution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. They criticize Hamas for not adhering to past agreements and engaging in unilateral actions that harm the Palestinian cause. This includes the takeover of the Gaza Strip in 2007, which led to political division between Hamas and Fatah.

In essence, Fatah looks at Hamas with significant criticism, especially due to differing approaches in pursuing Palestinian interests, with Fatah preferring diplomacy and political means over violent actions and unilateral decisions. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.178.235.122 (talk) 10:44, 9 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Netanyahu's "bolstering" of Hamas — Preceding unsigned comment added by 223.204.195.107 (talk) 19:42, 24 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In this page about the Fatah-Hamas conflict, I am curious to see no mention of the well evidenced claims that Netanyahu and Israeli right wing governemnts funded and supported Hamas for years in an attempt to weaken the PA/

This is the equivalent of writing a wikipedia Page about inter group conflicts in Ulster, while failing to mention Briish involvment with the IRA and other groups and their attempt to influence the conflict to their benefit ( e.g. Stakeknife).

^[1]

For example:

A. Times of Israel (2023):

1. "For years, Netanyahu propped up Hamas. Now it’s blown up in our faces. The premier’s policy of treating the terror group as a partner, at the expense of Abbas and Palestinian statehood, has resulted in wounds that will take Israel years to heal from"

2. "The idea was to prevent Abbas — or anyone else in the Palestinian Authority’s West Bank government — from advancing toward the establishment of a Palestinian state."

3. "According to various reports, Netanyahu made a similar point at a Likud faction meeting in early 2019, when he was quoted as saying that those who oppose a Palestinian state should support the transfer of funds to Gaza, because maintaining the separation between the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank and Hamas in Gaza would prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state."

^[2]

B. Haaretz (2023):

1. "Benjamin Netanyahu and Hamas have an unspoken political alliance against their common enemy – the Palestinian Authority. In other words, Netanyahu has cooperation and agreement with a group whose goal is the destruction of the State of Israel and the murder of Jews."

2. "Netanyahu knew, Barak added, “that it’s easier with Hamas to explain to Israelis that there is no one to sit with and no one to talk to. If the PA strengthens… then there will be someone to talk to.”"

3. "The MO of Netanyahu’s policy since his return to the Prime Minister’s Office in 2009 has and continues to be, on the one hand, bolstering the rule of Hamas in the Gaza Strip, and, on the other, weakening the Palestinian Authority."

Archived from Original: ^[3]

^[4]

C. The Nation (2023)

1. Why Netanyahu Bolstered Hama? The Israeli prime minister followed a decades-old divide-and-rule strategy that fuels endless war.

2. "The same is true of Netanyahu’s longstanding policy of bolstering Hamas rule in Gaza, including encouraging Israel’s de facto ally Qatar to finance the terrorist organization. While the much-respected Israeli newspaper Haaretz has covered this issue, it has been largely ignored by the international press.On Sunday, The New York Times gave new prominence to the long-standing Netanyahu-Hamas connection in a detailed and lengthy report. "

3. "Retired Israeli general Shlomo Brom described the logic of Netanyahu’s position: “One effective way to prevent a two-state solution is to divide between the Gaza Strip and the West Bank.” If the extremist Hamas ruled Gaza, then the Palestinian Authority—a compromised comprador government with a tenuous hold on the West Bank—would be further weakened. This, according to Brom, would allow Netanyahu to say, “I have no partner.”

4. In 2015, Bezalel Smotrich, currently the finance minister in Netanyahu’s government, summed up the strategy by stating, “The Palestinian Authority is a burden. Hamas is an asset.”

^[5]

I would suggest a helpful editor could add this information as I am not inclined to, and do not understand WP Policies, etc.

223.204.195.107 (talk) 19:36, 24 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]