Talk:Frankokratia

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Hello, I think Cyprus should be acknowledged as a territory under frankokratia. It is part of the Hellenic ethnos and is this time period is acknowledged as frankokratia in Cyprus. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.15.195.45 (talk) 13:30, 31 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Should't this article be renamed "Francocracy"? While Greek historians and Greek speakers may prefer Frankokratia, the English translation should be more understandable and natural to general readers. --Jorge Stolfi (talk) 06:05, 15 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

This article is more general than what is suggested by the name "Frankocratia" ("Rule of the Franks", i.e. Normans). Methinks that a more straightforward and precise title would be "Latin rule in Greece", or "Frankish rule in Greece", etc.. Of course, with redirects from "Frankokratia", "Francocracy", "Venetokratia", "Benetokratia", "Enetokratia", etc..
This proposed change would also make it possible to write a decent head paragraph, like

The Latin rule in Greece was a period in

Greek history when a number of Crusader states — primarily under French (Frankish), Norman, or Venetian control — were established in the former territory of the Byzantine Empire, in areas that are now mostly part of Greece, after its demise by the Fourth Crusade (1204). The partition was defined by the crusaders in the treaty Partitio terrarum imperii Romaniae

("Partition of the lands of the Roman Empire").

Greek historians call this period Francocracy or Frankokratia (Greek: Φραγκοκρατία, "rule of the Franks"), or also Latinocracy or Latinokratia (Λατινοκρατία, "rule of the Latins"); or, specifically, Venetocracy, Venetokratia or Enetokratia (Βενετοκρατία or Ενετοκρατία, "rule of the Venetians") for the Venetian domains. The term "Latinocracy" comes from the name "Latins" given by the Orthodox Greeks to the Western European Latin Church Catholics.

The span of the Latin rule period differs by region: the political situation proved highly volatile, as the Frankish states fragmented and changed hands, and the Greek successor states re-conquered many areas. With the exception of some isolated forts and Ionian islands which remained in control of the Republic of Venice until 1797, the Latin rule in the Greek lands came with the Ottoman conquest between the 14th and 16th centuries, which ushered in the period known as Turkish rule (Τουρκοκρατία, Tourkokratia, "Turcocracy").

@Netherzone: "Frankish" has two meanings. One, "relating to the early medieval Germanic confederation known as the Franks". Not the case here.

Two, a blanket term for all European crusaders, be they Italian, German, French or Hungarian. If this is the intended meaning, then why is the moniker attached only to the French contingent of Latin occupants of Greece? Why should the Venetians be referred as Venetians, the Normans as Normans, and the French as Frankish? Qualcomm250 (talk) 01:13, 2 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hello Qualcomm250 thank you for bringing this matter to the talk page. I respectfully disagree with you on the change you made to the article. While the article has existed for years with the term Frankish rather than French (to which you had changed it), I went ahead and did a comprehensive search of the sources and references to the article, and Frankish is indeed the correct term. Multiple reliable sources (scholarly and historical) use Frankish, not French. Can you provide reliable sources backing up your change? Netherzone (talk) 18:04, 3 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The contradiction here is that the article is about the Frankokratia—the rule of the Franks—in Greece. As the sources can attest, "Franks" and "Latins" were the names given by the Greeks to the Western European crusaders ruling over them. Venetian, Norman, and French crusaders were all Franks according to this definition, so it is counterintuitive, when explaining the geographic origins of the Franks/Latins, to specify that the French were Frankish: in this context, it applies equally to the other groups of crusaders. The first source in the Sources section can attest to this; indeed, it defines Frankish states as the dominance of West European adventurers, before laying out their geographic origins: French, Genoese, and Venetian colonizers, after whom came the Catalans, Navarrese and Florentines. Qualcomm250 (talk) 19:40, 3 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I understand that your intentions are in good faith, however, simply quoting something from the second paragraph of the introduction of the first source is not equivalent to an in-depth investigation into complexity of the historical times, events and cultures. The article would be better improved by removing the sentence rather than the change you made. Netherzone (talk) 20:41, 3 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. Let us remove the sentence outright then. Qualcomm250 (talk) 20:57, 3 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Problem solved! Good to work together on this. Happy new year. Netherzone (talk) 22:48, 3 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

It is claimed that the Lordship of Salona felt under Navarrese rule, but I can't find anything about that. Any source? Theklan (talk) 12:44, 2 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]