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It doesn't really touch on the two factors of Fisher's career that make him a figure of interest. First are his many reforms, often shoved through against the resistance from the powers that be, in munitions, operations and training methods. Second, was this flamethrower personality.
There's quite a lot that can be added. Here in no particular order, is stuff that comes to mind: The current article goes from 1898 to 1902 without mentioning the entente cordialle; Fisher's work habits (his "I have nothing to do" sign"); the period of technical innovation from sail to steam; the innovation of the submarine threat and the torpedo threat; the Naval acts of both England and Germany (ie the general context -- Kaiser' William's idiotic foreign policy).
To psychologists the most fascinating aspect of Fisher's life/career is its illustration of how much personality counts for in human affairs. Fisher had the energy and personality of a speed addict before there was speed (or its accompanying tooth loss), and utter devotion to his work and to Great Britian. As a result he rose from a nothing son of a nothing born on the fringes of the British empire to becoming not only one of the dozen or so most significant people in the world by 1900, but also perhaps the only person in the world who could, at the very hight of the empire's power, shake his fist in the face of King Edward the VII without reproach (yet be considered one of the King's good friends before, and after), be invitied to dine with Kaiser Whilhelm and with Tirpitz, and dance with the Grand Duchessess of Russia. Fisher was truly a remarkable man, and if he were in an American school today, without doubt he would be put on Ritilan and would never be heard from again. A true human volcano!
From the "Last modified on" date of this page, as of this writing, the above unsigned entry dates from March 15, 2006. It is possible that all the suggestions have been addressed by now.--?? Zaslav 03:38, 28 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
In the section "Early reform efforts" is the phrase "during which he split it off as Vernon." I ask anyone who can understand this to rewrite it. What does "it" refer to? What does "which" refer to? What does "split off" mean in this sentence? What is Vernon? Could the intended meaning be "During this time, he established something as a separate something under the name of Vernon"? Zaslav 03:43, 28 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The original HMS Vernon was a frigate operational from 1832 to 1848; she was laid up until 1867 as a floating coaling jetty, then in 1872 she became a hulk anchored to HMS Excellent as a tender. In 1876 the hulk of Vernon together with ex-frigate Ariadne and the lighter Florence Nightingale were commissioned as HMS Vernon, the Royal Navy's Torpedo Branch, separate from HMS Excellent, the Torpedo and Mining Training school. Over the next 30 years or so the various hulks were renamed, and moved about, and finally in 1923 the organisation moved ashore with the original ship names being applied to various buildings. This site may better explain the rather complex history. -- Arwel (talk) 18:03, 1 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I have reworded that bit in the article to make it clearer. Jll 14:06, 6 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Quote
The following quote is currently credited to Fisher in this article:
The moment one definitely commits oneself, then providence moves too. All sorts of things occur to help one that would never otherwise have occurred. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents and meetings and material assistance which no man could have dreamed would have come his way. Whatever you can do or dream you can, begin it. Boldness has genius, power and magic in it. Begin it now. Never contradict. Never explain. Never apologise.
However, I've found that the bolded part of the text above is often credited to
Goethe, who died nearly 9 years before Fisher was born. Of course, Fisher may have been quoting Goethe, but if so, this should be noted. Or maybe the Goethe credit isn't correct. (Internet quote sites are almost universally devoid of any proper sourcing, and even Wikiquote's Goethe article is currently lacking a source.) Does anyone have a source for this quote? Thanks. ~ Jeff Q(talk) 21:57, 28 April 2006 (UTC)[reply
Jackie Fisher, 1st Baron Fisher. The statement which you deleted about HMS Inflexible's armament was not particularly bizarre, as it took between 2.5 and 4 minutes to reload the muzzle-loading main guns. -- Arwel (talk) 20:03, 17 June 2007 (UTC)[reply
]
It might have done, but that's no reason to say the guns were "useless for naval warfare". The Land 20:06, 17 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Answer
I have deleted second part of the following statement.
Inflexible was a very prestigious appointment, the most powerful warship of her day, although in practice the four huge muzzle-loaded guns took so long to load that she was almost useless for naval warfare.
It was true that the rate of fire of the 16in MLRs on Inflexible was slow. According to Astley Cooper Key they could do 1 round every 4 minutes.
This compaeres with:
1 round per 2 minutes for the 12.5 in MLRs on the Dreadnought. (Source: Astley Cooper Key)
1 round per 3 minutes for 13.5 in BLRs on the Admiral, Trafalgar, and Royal Sovereign classes. (Source:
Fred Jane
)
1 round per 5 minutes for the 16.25 in BLRS on the Benbow, Victoria and Sans Pareil. (Source:
Fred Jane
)
1 round per 8 minutes for the 13.4 in BLRs on the French Brennus. (Source:
Fred Jane
)
1 round per 15 minutes for the 17 in MRLs on the Italian Duilio and Dandolo. (Source: papers translated from Italian into English in the Public Record Office.)
So what is wrong with a rate of fire of 1 round per 4 minutes?--Toddy1 21:05, 17 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
If that's the case, then I take your point. -- Arwel (talk) 22:26, 17 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Renaming 2007
The following is a closed discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the proposal was no move. -- tariqabjotu 20:18, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
At 19:35, 24 August 2007 Franz-kafka renamed this page from Jackie Fisher, 1st Baron Fisher to Jackie Fisher, 1st Baron Fisher of Kilverstone. The reason for doing so was given as "Jackie Fisher, 1st Baron Fisher of Kilverstone is the correct full name of his title."[reply]
Err!!!! No, it was not! Jackie was his nickname. His correct full name was: John Arbuthnot Fisher, 1st Baron Fisher of Kilverstone, GCB, OM, GCVO.
Well in that case the article should be called that then, and have jackie marked like this "Jackie" —Preceding unsigned comment added by Franz-kafka (talk • contribs) 07:26, August 27, 2007 (UTC)
Proposal
That we rename the article: John Arbuthnot Fisher, 1st Baron Fisher of Kilverstone. Reasons given above.--Toddy1 07:34, 27 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed 'Jackie' was just a nickname and certainly should not be in the title of the article Dormskirk 11:04, 27 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Strong oppose - the correct form of the title is "Baron Fisher"; "of Kilverstone" is the territorial qualifier and putting it in the title is completely wrong. And "Jackie Fisher", as the name he is known by, is as valid a title name as Frank Pakenham, not "Francis Pakenham". Timrollpickering 16:46, 5 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - The consensus seems to make the most common name the official article title, and the first sentence of the article to give the full name.(see Augustus, Sting, Blackbeard , etc. - all nicknames) That's what we've done here. Mike Young 20:40, 5 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Support - The proposed name is consistent with Wikipedia:Naming conventions (names and titles), which the existing name certainly is not (see note below). One cannot mix nicknames with formal titles. Regards to all, John Moore 309 14:55, 7 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I support the change to "John Arbuthnot Fisher" as that was his real name, although it is clearly important that people typing in "Jackie Fisher" should be automatically directed to this page. The nickname "Jackie" is shown in the very first sentence of text (although I suggest it should precede the 'Arbuthnot' rather than follow it), and I would also suggest that the "of Kilverstone" should be inserted after "1st Baron Fisher" in this first sentence, obviating the name for it to appear in the article's title. Remember that he did not become Baron Fisher until 1909, just a few months before retirement, so it may only in his latter year that people would refer to him by the peerage; for that matter, he did not reach flag rank until 1890, so people investigating his career as Director of Naval Ordnance may seek him out under a lower rank. Rif Winfield 08:28, 6 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose He's universally known as Jackie Fisher. I have no problems with mixing and matching the title:, thus: "Jackie Fisher, 1st Baron Fisher of Kilverstone", if you must add the territory. --ROGER DAVIESTALK 16:11, 7 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
How about John Arbuthnot "Jackie" Fisher, 1st Baron Fisher of Kilverstone? Mike Young 16:26, 7 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Support To throw my six pennyworth in... I am new to contributing to Wiki so may be missing some subtle naming convention but I would go for John Arbuthnot Fisher, 1st Baron Fisher of Kilverstone. As an aside, I'm not sure where Jackie has come from. I thought it was Jacky. A check of the biographies that I have - Hough, MacKay and Ollard all use this spelling. I'm reading a bio of Beatty at the moment (Roskill) and in his letters to his wife Beatty uses Jacky too. SirLancelot
Oppose. Common names policy mandates "Jackie" rather than "John" or "John Arbuthnot", and "Baron Fisher" is the correct title. "Baron Fisher of Kilverstone" is totally wrong. Proteus(Talk) 21:08, 10 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Though, funnily enough, "Baron Fisher of Kilverstone" is exactly how The Times referred to him in their obituary (Jul 12, 1920; pg. 9; Issue 42460; col A} --ROGER DAVIESTALK 19:36, 11 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Then they got it wrong. It's hardly unknown for the media not to know what they're talking about. Proteus(Talk) 09:56, 14 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
My information is that the use of the name without the territorial designation is mere shorthand and that territorial bit is used to disambiguate if more than one peer of that name exists. Now, rather than blithely claiming that the The Times has got it wrong, why not produce a reliable source to confirm what you say? (FYI, the House of Lords interests register uses territorial designations. This, I suggest adds more credence to my version than to yours. Further, the Maritime Museum frequently calls him "Fisher of Kilverstone".) --ROGER DAVIESTALK 10:51, 14 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
No, the House of Lords uses correct titles. The fact that some peers are "Lord Smith of Somewhere" doesn't mean they all are. See territorial designation for an explanation of how these things work. In this case, Fisher was created "Baron Fisher", with the territorial designation "of Kilverstone in the County of Norfolk". Lord Fisher of Lambeth, on the other hand, was created "Baron Fisher of Lambeth" with the territorial designation "of Lambeth in the County of London". See this list for the titles concerned: the bit in bold is the actual title, the bit in normal text the territorial designation. Proteus(Talk) 11:00, 14 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
By convention (the "shorthand" I referred to earlier} the territory is usually dropped in everyday use UNLESS there are two peers with the same "surname". (In which case, the earlier creation uses the surname-only form and subsequent creations surname-plus-territory form.)
Since you seem so keen on sources, provide one for that assertion. Proteus(Talk) 12:00, 14 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
This is how the Times Style Guide does it. But, in fact, I don't think that what we are saying is tremendously different. The forms of address in the letters patent and the writ of summons don't have to be identical (cf. Bernard Wetherill.)--ROGER DAVIESTALK 13:50, 14 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Now you've lost me. Lord Weatherill? Proteus(Talk) 14:07, 14 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I need a source for your assertion that he was created "Baron Fisher". The Times' Court Circular for Dec 14, 1909 refers to him as "Fisher of Kilverstone in the County of Norfolk" (no comma) and refers to him thereafter as "Fisher of Kilverstone". This is also how the Churchill Archives call him Fisher of Kilverstone] too. The Parliamentary Review in The Times of Mar 11, 1910, reports the taking of a seat in the House of Lords by "Lord Fisher of Kilverstone".
These are no more reliable sources than the ones you've been citing already. The London Gazette, however, quotes a Royal Warrant naming him "Our right trusty and well-beloved John Arbuthnot, Baron Fisher, Knight Grand Cross of Our Most Honourable Order of the Bath, Knight Grand Cross of Our Royal Victorian Order, Member of the Order of Merit, Admiral of the Fleet on the retired list of Our Navy"Proteus(Talk) 12:00, 14 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The National Dictionary of Biography] says "he was raised to the peerage as Baron Fisher of Kilverstone". However, to drag this discussion back to the original point, I have produced ample evidence to demonstrate that he was commonly known as "Fisher of Kilverstone", and that for Wikipedia purposes is sufficient.--ROGER DAVIESTALK 13:50, 14 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
When did the ODNB become an expert on peerage law? And being known as "Fisher of Kilverstone" is different to being known as "Lord Fisher of Kilverstone". Kitchener of Khartoum was simply Lord Kitchener. Also, what he was commonly known as is not enough: the common names policy (a) doesn't apply "in the case of naming royalty and people with titles" and (b) doesn't apply when the common name is incorrect (which is why we have
The House of Lords Archive people referred me to the ODNB as authoritative. They also pointed out that names peers use in the house often vary from those used on the letters patent. Otherwise, the Wikipedia:Naming conventions (names and titles) is more flexible than you suggest: "it is not set in stone and should be treated with common sense and the occasional exception". This also seems a good moment to suggest that if The Times did indeed make a mistake in referring to him as "Lord Fisher of Kilverstone" it is absolutely incredible that they should persist in this error for twelve years.--ROGER DAVIESTALK 14:43, 14 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I asked you for a reliable source (the College of Arms, House of Lords, Whitaker's Almanach, Buckingham Palace etc would do). You have provided a completely unreferenced wiki-article and an amateur genealogy site.
You, on the other hand, have just made stuff up and rattled out your flawed "understanding" and what you've somehow come to believe is "convention" as if it's indisputable fact. Proteus(Talk) 12:00, 14 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Ah. The "you have just made things up" bit must have been a typo then. --ROGER DAVIESTALK 14:43, 14 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
No, people with incomplete knowledge often make thing up to fill in the gaps. It may be subconscious making things up, but it's still making things up. The guideline is "assume good faith", not "assume knowledge" or "assume intelligence". Proteus(Talk) 16:59, 14 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed, though if the only way you can deal with this discussion - despite copious references - is to impugn falsehood, ignorance and stupidity, I think that as far as you and I are concerned it's best left where it is. --ROGER DAVIESTALK 17:17, 14 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I hestitate to join this discussion again... The London Gazette of 14 December 1909 gives the the full title - 'the names, style and title of Baron Fisher of Kilverstone in the county of Norfolk.' If my Wiki coding is up to speed (which is doubtful) this link might work. Anyone any thoughts on the Jackie / Jacky issue? SirLancelot 19:47, 14 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Note on naming conventions for biographical articles
Most general rule overall: use the most common form of the name used in English if none of the rules below cover a specific problem.
For ... peers: use the dignity in the title, unless the individual is exclusively referred to by personal name. For example: "Quintin Hogg, Baron Hailsham of St Marylebone" (not "Quintin McGarel Hogg"), but "Margaret Thatcher" (not "Margaret Thatcher, Baroness Thatcher.")
In general, use the most commonly recognized English-language form of the name. Create redirections or disambiguations for other plausible links. A good way to find this form is to look up the subject in a few reliable English works of general reference. For example, Alexander von Humboldt is so called in the New Cambridge Modern History. Where this leaves a choice among common names, the simplest unambiguous one is often preferable.
This guidance is not wholly consistent (since "most common" is not consistent with "exclusive") and could be used to support either the proposed title or Jackie Fisher. The drawbacks with Jackie Fisher are that it is ambiguous, and that is not used in many resources and indexes relating to Fisher, (unlike, say, Babe Ruth's nickname, it was little used in the subject's lifetime). What is certain is that the current name of the article does not tie in with Wikipedia convention at all.
I don't mind your delisting on the grounds of lack of concensus but I take a dim view of your POV remarks about the territorial designation. Further, as a point of information, an early and major biography of Jackie Fisher is entitled Fisher of Kilverstone (Mackay, Ruddock F. OUP, 1973
talk • contribs) 11:56, 14 September 2007 (UTC)[reply
]
This one is just Lord Fisher because he's the senior Fisher (the other ones are subsequent creations). Britannica call him Fisher of Kilverstone, I see (Fun this, innit?) --ROGER DAVIESTALK 12:05, 14 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
Baron Fisher of Kilverstone
From the digital archive of The London Gazette, Gazette Issue 28317 published on the
14 December
1909, page 2, retrieved on 15 September 2007:
“
Whitehall, December 11, 1909.
The KING has been pleased, by Letters Patent under the Great Seal of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, bearing date the
7th instant, to confer the dignity of a Baron of the said United Kingdom upon Admiral of the Fleet Sir John Arbuthnot Fisher, G.C.B., O.M., G.C.V.O., and the heirs male of his body lawfully begotten, by the name, style and title of Baron Fisher of Kilverstone, in the county of Norfolk.
”
I don't think that anyone would seriously suggest that The London Gazette is not the definitive source, so Fisher of Kilverstone it is. --ROGER DAVIESTALK 12:26, 15 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Not quite. The London Gazette, especially in the 19th and early 20th centuries, is often rather slapdash with the placement of commas. (Titles were often listed as "Baron X, of Y, in the County of Z", so it's entirely possible the first comma was left out rather than a single comma misplaced.) To see this, you only have to look at the title created immediately below this Barony, namely "Baron Kilbracken of Killegar in the county of Leitrim", which has no comma at all. To see the actual title in cases like this, it's necessary to look at subsequent formal documents quoted verbatim in the LG which completely leave out the territorial designation. It's quite difficult in this case as Lord Fisher didn't hold the title very long, but it's obvious from the citation I quoted above that he's plain "Baron Fisher". (Apart from anything, there had never been a Barony of Fisher before this creation, and so there was no reason at all for "of Kilverstone" to be part of the actual title. It was immensely rare before the Life Peerages Act for a peerages to be "X of Y" without a very good reason for it.)
To be picky, the warrant you refer to in The London Gazette (LG 2 August 1912) is not necessarily a verbatim transcript as it says "to the following effect". However, in the altogether longer report of the announcement of the commission in The Times (Jul 30, 1912; pg. 6; Issue 39964; col E) he is called "Admiral of the Fleet the Lord Fisher of Kilverstone, G.C.B., O.M., G.C.V.O.".
In contrast to the August 1912 LG entry, when he received a Japanese honour, LG 30 October 1917 he was called "Adml. of the Fleet Lord Fisher of Kilverstone".
In further contrast to the August 1912 LG entry, Fisher's LG death notice refers to him as "Baron Fisher of Kilverstone" and to his son as "Cecil Vavasseur, Baron Fisher of Kilverstone".
To summarise, in three out of four official announcements in the London Gazette, including the one announcing his elevation to the peerage, he is called "Fisher of Kilverstone". From this I conclude that if there is an error in the London Gazette it is in the single (inconsistent) entry that you rely on.
At least three books call him "Fisher of Kilverstone" in their titles (Marder's Fear God and Dread Nought - The Correspondence of Admiral of the Fleet, Lord Fisher of Kilverstone (3 vols), Mackey's Lord Fisher of Kilverstone, and R H Bacon's The Life of Lord Fisher of Kilverstone (2 vols).
He had his wife's headstone inscribed (according to The Times) "wife of first Baron Fisher of Kilverstone". He should know.
SirLancelot's posts in the last few days about this deserve further investigation. Certainly, he's been called "Jacky" in stuff I've read lately. However, he's ALWAYS been called "Jackie" here, ever since this article was created, even though that spelling has never been referenced. Thoughts and comments? --ROGER DAVIESTALK 13:39, 17 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The most obvious thing to do is compile a table as follows:
Author in the case of compilations of correspondence, the author of the correspondence
Source
When written not necessarily date of publication
Names used for J.A. Fisher
Whether the author knew or met J.A. Fisher
Entry by
Adm Sir John Jellicoe
"The Jellicoe Papers" Volume I, edited by A Temple Patterson, pub Naval Records Society 1966.
Vol I, p. 115. Letter quoted from Admiral Heathcoat Grant who was his lieutenant on Renown. On the other hand, Bacon says people called him 'Jackie' p.132.
Do we really have to include Fisher's Face? I think a broad spectrum of names can be established without including what Nicholas Lambert charitably calls "a caprice" and what I'd call "the work of a nut-job". She might have known his son and grandson, but Morris also claims to have met Fisher's ghost. Hmmm? --
Does anyone know if anyone ever used Jacky to his face rather than just when referring to him? I think for the purposes of this discussion, (how he is commonly and most recognisably named), 'Fishers Face' is acceptable evidence. Its not just historical facts but how he is known now in popular culture which has a bearing. At this point I am reasonably convinced the current name 'Jackie' is wrong, or more wrong than right. Sandpiper (talk) 08:25, 4 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Proposed move to Jacky
It seems to me the consensus, particularly the older references to him, have the spelling 'jacky'. Does anyone object to changing the article name to this spelling? Sandpiper (talk) 11:17, 24 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I agree given the abundance of sources up there that use Jacky. Woody (talk) 11:24, 24 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
We're all idle I think. What's the procedure? Just move it and say "Look at the discussion", or is an admin needed? --Simon Harley (talk | library | book reviews) 12:54, 23 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I have created a Requested Move at the bottom of the page. That should create the consensus needed (basically filling out the paper work given the length of time between the request.)
Massie in 'dreadnought' says he had a brother who was also an admiral, possibly frederick w fisher? Also another brother who made lieutenant, but died. Sandpiper (talk) 12:55, 20 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Don't rely on Massie. Interesting reads but there are frequent errors of detail. I will see what Mackay has to say about the matter. The Land (talk) 10:40, 22 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
well it is a footnote about his siblings p.408 in dreadnought. Seems unlikely it would be wrong, on the face of it. Says: Four of Fishers siblings died in infancy. Two of his younger brothers followed him to england and into the navy. One, Philip, became a lieutenant and drowned at twenty seven when his ship foundered and went down in a storm at sea. A second brother Frederick William, became a full admiral and was knighted. But he was nine years younger than Jack, who left home before he was born. They scarecly knew each other, and william appears in Fishers correspondence even more rarely than his mother. I would guess, it doesn't say, he is thinking of reading from 'Fear god and dread nought: Correspondence of admiral of the fleet lord fisher' edited by A. Marder, johnathan cape 1952-59 which he references extensively here and there, but does not specifically cite here, though I suppose there would not be any specific part to reference. Sandpiper (talk) 20:02, 22 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I wouldn't dispute the facts: Mackay says Capt. W. Fisher (d.1866) had seven children who survived infancy, and three sons who were naval officers: John Arbuthnot (Jacky); Frederic William; and Philip. William Wordsworth Fisher's father was one Herbert William Fisher (1826-1903); can't see anything to indicate that H.W. Fisher was related to Capt. W. Fisher. Interestingly enough Mackay says that Jacky fisher descended from a line of baronets in the 17th and 18th C and parson at Bodmin in Cornwall. No idea if H.W. Fisher was from the same line or not. The Land (talk) 20:42, 22 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]