Talk:Kingdom of Germany/Archive 4

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From when to when was such a kingdom to have existed?

Most of the article deals with events past 962. We have a whole article here called the Holy Roman Empire. It is striking that there is no equivalent article on the German wikipedia. Mootros (talk) 19:06, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

The Kingdom of Germany, like the Kingdoms of Italy or Burgundy, was one component of the Empire. Since it pre-existed the Empire, but had no functional existence after the last German king released his subjects from their obedience: 843-1806. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:37, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

So you are saying this "kingdom" was mostly a part of the Holy Roman Empire? Highly dubious! Does not say anything about this in here. Mootros (talk)

Wikipedia is not a

reliable source. Septentrionalis PMAnderson

21:05, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

Shall we add 843-1806 to this page. Any RS for this? Mootros (talk) 21:13, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

Not in boldface. But James Bryce is a reliable source. Read, understand, edit. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:17, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

Does not make any such assertion: 843-1806. Mootros (talk) 21:27, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

Nonsense. Learn to read, not just abuse search engines. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:30, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

All I can read is a 19th century revisionist account that tries to shoehorn past event into a at the time important view that liked to see a core monarchy to have exited within the HRE. (Victoria probably would have liked this.) However, there is no evidence! Not even good old Bryce's interpretation does go as far to make such an assertion of a so-called "Kingdom of Germany" to have existed from 843-1806. Mootros (talk) 21:43, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

In other words, you have your own Point of View, and cite no sources. References to the Kingdom of Germany from before 1848 (to avoid even references to the offer of the Frankfurt Parliament) are easy to come by; on the theory you have made up, they would not exist. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:02, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

What do you mean we already have a perfect source of the German Kingdom. Our friend James Bryce, despite his "nation building" view of German history. Mootros (talk) 22:26, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

The idea of Bryce, that Garibaldian Liberal, who recommended a

WP:FRINGE. Septentrionalis PMAnderson

22:02, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

Exactly, this is absurd! It's equally absurd to main an 843-1806 argument. Mootros (talk) 22:09, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

Reliable sources are cited in the article. The date of 843 is easy enough. The date of 1806 is somewhat theoretical because the kingdom of Germany, as a real entity, fades into insignificance with the constitutional changes in the Empire from the 15th century on. So setting a date for its end is like setting a date for the fall of Rome. But if we can choose a host of dates between 476 and 1453, does that mean there was no Roman Empire? Srnec (talk) 22:34, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

Yes to 843. But the problem with anything beyond 962: are we saying that the some Duchies with the HRE formed a "Kingdom" that stood as some loose association itself within the HRE and later faded away. This a very interesting, I have to admit and surely a worthwhile theory to put forward. But so far what do we really have on established the evidence, even for 843 to 962? Mootros (talk) 22:43, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

The kingdom was Carolingian in creation. It had nothing to do with a federation of duchies, even if that's what it looked like in 911. (The origins of these duchies are obscure, but their creation dates to the period 843–962, which makes them look more like a product of the kingdom than its creator.) Conrad I was elected king. Henry I after him. Then Otto I. The principle of election was established and it was not really superceded until the Habsburgs. Similar things occured in France. When the Carolingian line failed, Hugh was elected. His descendants, unlike their German contemporarise, succeeded in making themselves hereditary sovereigns with no elections needed. Srnec (talk) 22:52, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

I'm not saying, the King(dom) of the Germans did not exist. That's why German Kingdom is a useful phrase. Mootros (talk) 22:48, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

So you'er distinguishing the "Kingdom of the Germans" = "German Kingdom" from the "Kingdom of Germany"? Is this at all useful? Does it make any sense? Isn't it like denying there was such a thing as France in 1810? Srnec (talk) 22:52, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

No. All we have is a King of the Germans. German Kingdom is a useful (i.e. a compromise), because it avoids to make a reference to a place, which "Germany" clearly does. It is widely acknowledged among historians that some tribes in Europe considered to themselves German people. However to conclude from this that there was a real political or administrate entirety for a unified territory is far fetched. Mootros (talk) 23:01, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

So there is no place called Germany before 1871? John Foxe would disagree. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:38, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

When at the time of Martin Luther? There were many different German States that had formed many different political alliances. I'm sure one can conveniently lump this together, especially when referring to culture and language. Political entity, I would say no. Mootros (talk) 00:11, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

1520, as Foxe clearly says on the same page. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:51, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

I for one do not accept that there is no place without a matching state. One might as well say there is no such place as South America. —Tamfang (talk) 02:38, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

And it is indisputable that there was a state called Germany in the Middle Ages. Srnec (talk) 03:39, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps to shed light onto this, I ask: What was the German or Latin name of this Kingdom? What original name do you find by English speaking historians in their footnotes on what this "entity" was supposedly be called at the time? Mootros (talk) 23:12, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

Here is the early Middle High German Annolied in its original language with an English translation (there's a link at the top). Three times the translator uses "Germany". What is he translating? Diutischemi lande, Diutsche lant, Diutischimo lante. This is only one source, but the earliest. —Srnec (talk) 23:34, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

The Latin is well-documented in the article. Srnec (talk) 23:36, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

To translate this as Germany what literately means land of the German is fine for a poem. 12th century is a very good indication of the changes that already had occurred in the HRE. The point is that we are trying to avoid the impression that before the HRE there was a political entity with a unified territory called Kingdom of Germany. Bryce clearly states the 5 or 6 tribes after 843 that elected a King did not even called themselves German but "East Frankish" [1] Do you have any source apart from the Latin which s from 11th or 12th century anyway? Mootros (talk) 23:48, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

You asked for names; that you get sources for names should not be surprising. Add rex alemaniae from the 13th century (Noel Denham-Young's Richard of Cornwall, and germaniae rex from the 15th (from Bryce).Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:51, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

Mootros, I can't even make sense of what you're saying. The Annolied is from the 11th century, not the 12th. The point is not that "we are trying to avoid the impression that before the HRE there was a political entity with a unified territory called Kingdom of Germany". We are doing no such thing, only you. There was a "political entity with a unified territory" that historians call the kingdom of Germany (and that was called something very similar by contemporaries) before Otto the Great. A 10th-century Latin source is covered in the article—which you apparently haven't read—and even has its own article. Try again. Srnec (talk) 01:19, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

Some historians! Others call it German Kingdom. There jury is still out there as to which is the more common terms. Something very similar, but not exactly the same. Mootros (talk) 01:40, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

No jury needed. The terms are equivalent in English, but the one is a better article title. Srnec (talk) 02:33, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

Why? Will be calling the

German King --> now King of Germany Mootros (talk

)

More background information is need here to solve this. How were these duchies united into a political entity and how do the reigns between 843--919 differ to 919--962? Thanks. Mootros (talk) 02:03, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

Why are you editing the article when you admit such ignorance? The duchies were part of the same polity before 843. The year 919 represents no major change, only in hindsight do we see it as the beginning of a new dynasty. Srnec (talk) 02:33, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

(ec) The dukes were originally part of a political entity, which was partitioned in 843. They were retained within the Kingdom of Germany by allegiance to the Crown, often extracted at swords' point. So what? That last is true of any Kingdom in Europe.

I am asking because I think you're confused. Mootros (talk) 08:09, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

And I think you've made something up and have no sources. So? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:19, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

That's exactly what we're trying to put in here. Mootros (talk) 20:23, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

The kings before 911 claimed by descent in the male line; Conrad and Henry claimed in the female line; Henry's descendants claimed in a different male line. Again, so what? The same (including invasions and disorder) can be said, for example, of the Kings of Scotland around 1300.

Some of the Kings of Germany before Otto were also Emperors, and some were not. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 02:37, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

Thank you. So who were all the Kings "of Germany"? Mootros (talk) 08:09, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

See Bryce; most of them, but not all, were also Emperor between the 10th and the 16th century (Henry the Fowler and Richard of Cornwall being the most obvious exceptions). After Charles V (of Germany) none of them were, strictly speaking, Emperors, but merely Emperors Elect. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:19, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

Thank you that's a useful confirmation. A lot of work needs to be done to get this article anywhere. Mootros (talk) 20:20, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

Considering you haven't read it, how do you know? (Remember how you asked a terminological question above without having read the "Terminology" section of the article?) Srnec (talk) 03:39, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

Mootrus is now rewriting and tagging List of German monarchs to his taste; discussion there may be helpful. He does have one valid point: by the logic here, that should be List of monarchs of Germany.Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:20, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

Best to keep the discussion focused on this page. Other pages are discussed elsewhere. PS: Not by my taste but by sources. Mootros (talk) 17:42, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

Hi [Henring], yes pls add the citation that shows what Otto was called at the time. Don't remove other reference that state the opposite. Compare and contrast, if they are opposing. Thanks. Mootros (talk) 16:16, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

Why do you want to remove two citations from leading English speaking authorities on the matter? Mootros (talk) 16:31, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

See my answer in the previous section a few minutes ago. Henrig (talk) 17:19, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

I still cannot see your logic of working. You first remove two key citations and save it. Than you you start to write. Why? Do you save the two key citations externally for later, or just drop them? Why? Mootros (talk) 17:29, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

You've removed and changed quite a lot in the lede. I've found the different connections already pretty well described. Some additional citations for all the people, who see it not so clear and perhaps also some additions on this base would have been convenient. My intention was, to add this citation [2] (p.228) (one of the first in the first list, I've found) to Otto, (who followed Henry I) mentioned as one of the king of Germany to this base (in this case I had the removed image in mind), before seeing, whether there were some other convenient places for citations from this book and some else (removed) additions, which may improve the article. (I had had asked about the content of the two links afterwards.)Henrig (talk) 20:40, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

We also need some citation here on the ethnic identity issue, prior to the Ottos. Reuter does say something about this. Do we have some more specific texts that deal with this time period and the ethnic identity of the tribes? Mootros (talk) 16:51, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

This article quotes John Gillingham as saying " an assemblage of a number of once separate and independent peoples and kingdoms, genres and regnu" I am removing that nonsense for two reasons. The less serious is that Gillingham of course wrote gentes and regna, which are actual Latin words.

The more serious is that Gillingham goes on to say "So too, of course, were the kingdoms of France and England." (As they were; in 650, Bavaria and Saxony were independent; so were Mercia and Essex. So?) Using that quotation to imply that Germany was different in kind from France or England is intellectual fraud.

The present text goes on to say - and to attribute to Gillingham - that the "assemblage" emerged in the tenth century. He does not say that; he does not discuss the tenth century at all. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:42, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

Footnote One says tenth century. Mootros (talk) 19:58, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

There is not mentioning of 843. If you're not happy about this add the statement about England and France, or remove the entire first sentence. Mootros (talk) 20:00, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

What it says, precisely, is that "For the purposes of this paper I am simply assuming that 'medieval Germany' lasted from the tenth century to the fifteenth." Like the following sentence, which excludes Italy and Burgundy, it's a declaration of the domain of interest of the paper; the content begins with discussing 1077, not a claim about the existence of Germany. Insofar as it's a definition, it defines "medieval"; nobody supposes Germany ended in the 15th century.

Learn to read in context. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:06, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

Indeed it does. Where does it say 843? Mootros (talk) 20:08, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

It doesn't. 843 wasn't an election, and so he doesn't discuss it.

Note the opening "The medieval kingdom of Germany" ? Mootros (talk) 20:10, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

Yes, like other medieval kingdoms, it was a conglomerate. Gillingham says nothing about the date of origin of the conglomerate; his audience knows that the conglomeration goes back Charlemagne and Pippin. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:15, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

Well would this not be a good first sentence setting the scene. Maybe his audience, but not here. So pls sources for a beginning date. Mootros (talk) 20:20, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

Thank you! This now looks better. Mootros (talk) 20:22, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you are talking about. You're removing five citations. Misleading whom into what? What are you talking about? Mootros (talk) 20:35, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

Other scholars writing in English use the generic term German Kingdom.

This makes it seem like there are camps of scholars, some using one term, other using another, when in fact all are applying both terms as descriptive terms of convenience. This is because (a) the actual name of the kingdom in question changed over time, (b) it didn't always have a formal or official name, (c) languages like Latin and German don't always translate neatly or consistently into English. That is why my version makes it clear that both are just ways of referring to the same thing.

The British historian James Bryce stated that the five or six tribes which elected the King did not called themselves German but East Frankish and lawful representative of the Carolingian dynasty.

This is just out of place. Why Bryce? What's so special about this 19th-century British historian other than that his work is on GoogleBooks? These tribes come out of nowhere. Who were they? And where did you get the idea that they elected kings? Not over most of the kingdom's history (or ever, really, since it was always rulers who were electors, not whole peoples). It is not clear in this sentence who "did not called themselves German but East Frankish and lawful representative of the Carolingian dynasty", nor is it even clear what this means. The English is just incorrect.

In the ninth century the kingdom was normally called 'the kingdom of the Eastern Franks', though its Frankish component was very much a minority interest.

We've already mentioned and link East Francia in the first line, so why do we need this sentence lifted out of context right out of another author? Could the average reader even understand what it's talking about: "Frankish component"?

Others note the ruler’s standard title simply as rex at the time.

This is all Reuter is saying. This is typical of more than just Germany at the time. It's also typical of many places today. We call our sovereign simple "the Queen", our coins say simply D. G. REGINA, and in our courts she is just "the Crown". It is of no relevance in the lead. Srnec (talk) 20:45, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

Why don't you cite anyone? Mootros (talk) 20:48, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

Because this is what the sources you cite are actually saying.SeptentrionalisPMAnderson 21:02, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

That's why you remove all the source? Utterly absurd!

I am copying the material in here for the moment, until we have figured out what to do with it Mootros (talk) 21:36, 15 April 2011 (UTC):

^[1] The British historian James Bryce stated that the five or six tribes which elected the King did not called themselves German but East Frankish and lawful representative of the Carolingian dynasty^[1]. "In the ninth century the kingdom was normally called 'the kingdom of the Eastern Franks', though its Frankish component was very much a minority interest."^[2] According to the British-German historian Timothy Reuter, the "standard royal title in the mid-tenth centry was simply Otto dei gratia rex, 'Otto by the grace of God king'".^[2] Others note the ruler’s standard title simply as rex at the time.^[3]

The way forward is to protect this article until Mootros stops editing it. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:39, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

What about trying to talk a bit more about the topic and in the long term to strive for that we together get it right and get this article to GA as a show piece of a good article on a difficult history topic? Mootros (talk)

See Talk:Kingdom of Germany/Archive 3#Misleading title. I still think that "King of the Germans" is better title for this article. -- PBS (talk) 21:40, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

Yes, that's a good option. Alternatively we might just go for merging it with HRE. At the moments is't just a fork of HRE, it does not really draw out the historiographic dimension that would vaguely justify the existence of this article. Mootros (talk) 21:26, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

Forget about merging the article because at the moment there would be no consensus for such a radical solution. -- PBS (talk) 09:39, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

Bad option. The king was not only a chairman of a few dukes. The original idea of the realm was, that all the territory of the kingdom was property of the king. The king had the right to appoint princes and give them land as a fief, which was still his property. He had also the right to dispose princes and take back their fiefs. He was the king of a country. Over the centuries this right weakened and the fiefs (first the large ones) became hereditary. (New crown aspirants had promised the dukes and princes such things in order to get their support to become king. A consequence was, that the power of the king gradually had weakened over the centuries. But this is another issue.)Henrig (talk) 06:28, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

There is a tendency in English to use "King of ..." because that is what the English kings always styled themselves as. But others such as the kings of Scotland and Napoleon styled themselves "King of the Scots" and "Emperor of the French". I do not think that anyone would dispute that those respective monarchs were kings and emperors of the territory as their nations were not itinerant. This is a discussion about usage in reliable sources and "King of the Germans" is that term is more widely supported in reliable sources than the term "Kingdom of Germany" and the article title should reflect common usage in reliable sources. -- PBS (talk) 09:39, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

OK, why not King of the Germans. As said before, at the moment article looks like a fork of HRE. Mootros (talk) 16:34, 18 April 2011 (UTC) @Henrig Your entire justification is about the role of the King and the changes to his power, etc. Would it not be good to name the article King of the Germans than? Mootros (talk) 16:53, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

Hm, it seems, a title 'King of ...' points in common sense usually to a certain king or a list of certain kings and in no way to a certain kingdom. It also seems, that all the titles 'King of ...' on Wikipedia redirect to a list of certain kings. There is also already a title 'King of the Germans' which consistently like other 'King of' titles redirects to an article 'List of German monarchs'.Henrig (talk) 17:47, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

No reason why it has to and in the case of Germany it has little to do with List of German monarchs, and much more to do with this article. -- PBS (talk) 16:12, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

There was no Germany before of 1871. Mootros (talk) 11:24, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

False. the RS (Reliable Sources) write about Germany before 1871. (Fuhrmann and Reuter, Germany in the High Middle Ages: c.1050-1200 (1986); Arnold, Medieval Germany, 500-1300 (1998); Reinhardt, Germany: 2000 Years (1961)) It's an issue of names and some historians indeed use "Kingdom of Germany" re the medieval country. Look at John Gillingham, The Kingdom of Germany in the High Middle Ages (900–1200) Historical Association Pamphlets, General Series, no. 77. London: Historical Association, 1971.

Not a widely established view among historians. The original Latin name does not say Germany either. Misses the point of the article because it does not really refer to such a construct called "Germany". There is nothing wrong to mention that some historians use this name, but it's not enough to name the article after this. Mootros (talk) 15:58, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

This article is not about a concept by a minority of English speaking historians, but about an area ruled by several members of different dynasties that was referred to as rex teutonicorum, or king of the Germans. Mootros (talk) 16:28, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

Mootros lacks RS in English for his plan to change the usual title to "Regnum teutonicum". Amazon.com lists only one book containing the title "Regnum teutonicum" and it's in German. Amazon list only ONE English language book that uses the words "Regnum teutonicum" somewhere in the text -[The Medieval Empire in Central Europe by Herbert Schutz--he also uses the term "German kingdom"]. The point is that Latin term is VERY rarely used in English. In common scholarly usage we have thousands of cites to "German Kingdom" (as in Henry IV of Germany 1056-1106 by by I. S. Robinson 2003)--and indeed in many British books going back to Freeman and Bryce a century+ ago...and today by leading writers such as Imanuel Geiss (1997), Pierre Riché - 1993, The Oxford history of medieval Europe (1993), Eric Goldberg - 2006, Andreas Dorpalen - 1985, Kurt Aland - 1986, Angus MacKay, David Ditchburn - 1997 etc etc. So perhaps as a compromise we can suggest "German Kingdom" as a title.Rjensen (talk)

The suggestion by Rjensen makes much more sense! German Kingdoms possibly. The current title is utterly confusing and bias towards a minority of who retrofit previous events and concepts into current way of thinking. Before the Enlightenment a king ruled over people and not over a land. Hence the very name "King of the Germans". People in Europe generally thought of themselves as custodians of the land that belonged to god. Hence definitely not (king of) Germany. Mootros (talk) 18:22, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

This contemporary account of Crecy uses rex Franciae and rex Boemiae. The Kingdom of England is much older, attested of Henry I. Kings of peoples did of course exist in the Dark Ages; but Philip VI of France is not the beneficiary of the Enlightenment - by about four centuries. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:35, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

...by Thomas Wright 1859 referring to text of unknown author. How does this relate to a world view in the place that came to be known as Germany. Mootros (talk) 21:54, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

Wright is an editor; and

John of Bridlington may be obscure, but he is not unknown. Septentrionalis PMAnderson

22:06, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

Well, late medieval source speak of a kingdom "Germania" and a title of the emperor from Maximilian I. was "rex Germaniae" which literally means "king of Germania" or Germany. So why can't you speak of a "kingdom of Germany" if contemporaries can?--MacX85 (talk) 07:36, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

Mootros is now rewriting the pages of numerous German monarchs by replacing everywhere 'King of Germany' with 'King of the Romans', which is misleading without clarification. They were kings of an area, a country, which was initially called East Francia and gradually changed to Germany. (For the Saxons especially it was really easier to identify with 'Germany' than with 'Francia'.) 'King of the Romans' was just a claim, which was connected to the king's title to become emperor. This should be clarified, when used. Otherwise it's misleading, for instance, to the old Romans. Henrig (talk) 19:28, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

OK, I'll do this. Thanks. Mootros (talk) 19:45, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

Hm, in German, there is the ironical term 'verschlimmbessern' (literally: impair improving). The name of the territory is necessary. 'King of the Romans' can be added, labeled as an official title with a link to the article (- which you unfortunately also have changed, by replacing "Kings of Germany" with "Kings who were refereed to as Otto by the grace of God King" Otto was a name! And "By the grace of God King" was just a frequently used phrasing by rulers in Christian countries! Henrig (talk) 06:43, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

The point is what did Otto called himself, and what was he called by others, at the time when he was in office. This is not about what other people called him centuries later.

Pls do not remove several citations of leading English speaking scholars, by saying that some references will be added soon. Mootros (talk) 15:43, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

Since you have written this question also on my talkpage, my same answer here too: No intention to remove citations. But you removed stable text, before people had the change to add citations, you have requested. There are lot of references. But you must give people time. Now, shortly after I had announced a first additional reference, you have changed the text and my work got lost in an edit conflict. Btw., please cite your citations exactly, to show, where you see the back for your claims.[4] (A link would be fine.) I've seen today the following posting from Pmanderson, regarding this issue. But after reading, he seems to see in your reference quite the opposite. Henrig (talk) 17:08, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

What stable text? You removed two key citations.

Re Reuter: however the state was organised. The question is what was it called? Land of the Saxons... Ottonia? We don't know yet. All we know is that we don't know whether it was called Germany or not. Bryce states that prior to the Ottos the King explicitly did not call themselves German. Mootros (talk) 17:16, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

What were, for instance, the people in England called in the 11th century? Angels, Saxons, Normans, some other names. It was a development, but England (from the tribe of the Angels) came more and more in use. The name German (i.e. the frankish predecessor of the modern terms Deutsch (and Dutch) appeared first written during the time of Charlesmagne and meant the old Frankish (people's) language which in the West of Francia came more and more out of use in favor of the Roman language. Ist seems it was initially more a nickname for the eastern Frankish territories, which by the time came more and more in use. At the beginning the people considered themselves perhaps more as members of their tribes and Otto was seen as a Saxon and still king of East Francia (for sure in the Frankish areas). It was a slow process and one day the name of Francia for the kingdom was widely replaced with the term for Germany.Henrig (talk) 18:21, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

My reference exactly states page 64 and gives a convenient link to the online version of this book. A direct link to a google book page is not useful, because it can block the page temporarily. You need to turn the pages yourself, I'm afraid. Mootros (talk) 17:37, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

It seems, there is not the same access from a PC in Germany as from your country. I see the message 'Pages 50 - 70 are not available. [5] Henrig (talk) 17:53, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

http://books.google.com/books?id=UbIDN-jV7XkC&pg=PR7&lpg=PP1 You can you see this index? If so, just turn the pages. Mootros (talk) 17:58, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

If you still don't have any success, you may contact me and I will email you a copy of that page for private study purposes. Mootros (talk) 18:34, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

I still don't have any success. You could cite the certain sentence, you have in mind and I assume, others have access and can judge it. I would assume a certain misunderstanding like in the other source PManderson considers. A certain sentence, which not explicitly describes something, but for instance mentions somewhat of a still existing tribe identity like in the most early kingdoms, is something, that is a valuable information, but may be misleading in drawing certain conclusions. (See also my previous posting in this section from today 18:21.)Henrig (talk) 20:40, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

I think it's not wise to label them "kings of the Romans" 1. because it's misleading if you are not familiar with the contemporary titles and what they may have meant. Didn't some English kings call themselves "king of France" just because it was their claim? 2. the titles changed. They were "kings of the Romans" when they were crowned king but not yet emperor. When they were emperor their royal title was "rex Germaniae" since the late 15th century. 3. they were called "kings of the Germans" by foreign monarchs, popes, chroniclers, sometimes even called themselves like that from the 11th century onwarts. I find "king of Germany" or "German king" a fitting title for an encyclopedia. In German there's a nice little attribute "römisch-deutsch" which we sadly don't have in English...--MacX85 (talk) 11:01, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

"...Germany, Italy and Burgundy, which traditionally had their own courts, laws, and chanceries, gradually dropped from use.."

What exactly were these institutions, at what point in history? Sounds dubious. Any clarification on this? Mootros (talk) 16:39, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

If not merely a historiographical term, when did such a kingdom come into existence?

If not merely a historiographical term, when did such a kingdom come into existence? Presumably after the Holy Roman Empire was established. Could the issues of overlap please be address here? Mootros (talk) 17:02, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

Distinguishing East Frankia, Kingdom of Germany and HRE

Each of these is to some extent the invention of modern writers. Let's bear that in mind from the outset. Now, after the 13th century distinguishing K of Germany and HRE is pointless; and this is an issue that may need a solution. With that said, the Kingdom of Germany is an important term for the central Middle Ages where there is a clear difference between all the realms ruled by the Saxon and Swabian kings collectively and the constituent ones, Germany, Italy/Pavia and Burgundy/Arles. "East Francia" is a term used for the K of Germany in some sources for the 10th century to highlight the importance of the Frankish heritage, but only a tiny proportion of the kingdom is actually Frankish and Franks do not dominate the Kingdom of Germany as they did the Frankish kingdom. It is not even a common term for the kingdom in the sources, as some contributors here imagine. You will be surprised that in non-formal sources the kingdom is routinely called "Germany", and I suspect the controversy here stems from the fact that in popular modern history the 'unification' of Germany in the 19th century the frequently cast in terms that exaggerate its innovation. This is an unfortunate perpetuation of ignorance (in fact, "Germany", like most big European "nations", is a product of political developments in the central Middle Ages), but it is ignorance. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 17:07, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

I am aware of this and delighted to see that you don't lump thing together and draw out the element of historiographic construction. The article does not at the moment. Mootros (talk) 17:16, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

So one of my points is: what evidence do we have of shared institutions (beyond the King and a common language)? What are their manifestations? Mootros (talk) 17:18, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

Church structure and 'community of the realm'. A variety of institutions, bishoprics, many abbeys and cities, were direct vassals of whoever was the German king. There were also the imperial

ministeriales and counts directly dependent on the king, who followed him around/met and counseled him when he was in the region. This was the way it worked in England too, though very in England there were no dukes and very little was cut off from direct royal power. In the tenth century both the English and German kings gave away lots of land to new royal monasteries and bishoprics; with reformed clerical celibacy the ruler was able to appoint these officials directly (unlike, in practice, lay officials). Now as we know, the investiture crisis undermined this system to some extent in Germany, but there is nonetheless this "imperial community" of abbots, bishops, counts, burghesses,and so on into the later middle ages whose 'community of the realm' is Germany and not some duchy or duchified county. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk

) 17:30, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

Thank you kindly. It is a very useful starting point! How does this differ to the HRE? Are you saying that this network gradually expanded South of the Alps and thereby lost its distinct German character? Mootros (talk) 17:42, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

The Ottonian kings acquired the Lombard kingdom of Pavia, and got what came with that ... something approaching a legal fiction with a bunch of cities and duchies that only acknowledged royal authority when a costly German hosting was nearby. The imperial title (which derived from the Pope's attempt to replace the Empress Irene) had been associated with the Italian kingdom, and Otto got it revived for himself after becoming king of Italy. So, historically, the Italian kingdom is separate and only time made the kingdoms merge in practice (though as we know the Italian kingdom was always a bit of a fictional resource-squandering vanity). Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 17:56, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

The kingdom came into existence with the partition of

As a small point, the Germanic emperors were not set up as successors to the western Roman emperors. This is commonly believed, but it is not the case (certainly for the central middle ages). The old emperors of the West were mostly forgotten. The idea was that the emperors took the authority of the Roman emperors succeeding Constantine VI (the nonsense that the empire ended in the 5th century was unknown in the early medieval West). The Pope denied Irene of Athens legitimacy and 'appointed' thw Frankish king to her role. It is important to point out too that there is no real political continuity between Charlemagne and Otto (even if Otto's successors liked to pretend there was). Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 19:42, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

Charlesmagne was a Frank and Otto was a Saxon (but related to Charlesmagne as well as likely to his Saxon enemy Widukind and there had been a big enmity between Francs and Saxons. Between the times of both figures was a political hole, in which Charlemagne's empire broke to pieces and the whole western Christian world seemed to be in an existentiell danger in the times of Viking and Magyar raids. And Franks and Saxons in East Francia stood one against each other in this time. When Otto was crowned emperor, it's well imaginable, that he was seen as the renewer of Charlemagne's empire and it's also imaginable, that the Saxon nobility had not the slightest interest to reunite Western and Eastern Francia again. But this would be another story. Henrig (talk) 20:33, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

To stick with the original question raised by Mootros, what exactly were the own courts and laws of "Germany"? Cities and towns often had their own courts and a lot of political entities of this kingdom were virtually independent.

Thank you. So far we have only have communities of monasteries. I still cannot see the validity of any such assertion of shared institutions. The factuality of such case just does not add up for such an article. Mootros (talk) 18:42, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

What's disputed about the factual accuracy of this article? And why is such a tag necessary at this stage? Usually such tags are used when there is an edit-war regarding the accuracy of some points and one side decides to leave it with a tag rather than continue edit-warring. The purpose of the tag is to notify the reader that there is an unresolvable accuracy dispute. But there has been little attempt to alter the content of this article. Could the editor inserting the tag please explain.Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 00:25, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

What is disputed? That (i) Regnum teutonicorum has existed before the late eleventh century (in addition to have been used in retrospect) (ii) that there were shared legal and social institutions across the land (in addition to the office of the King) that were specific and limited to the German part of the HRE, (iii) that a concrete political/ administrative entity called KoG did exist beyond papal pronouncement (for a brief moment in time) and the shorthand notation used by English speaking historiographers. Where is the evidence for such "facts"? Mootros (talk) 12:55, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

Your ii) I dealt with above, where I mentioned monasteries, bishoprics, royal counts and ministeriales. What is your evidence for doubting these shared insitutions? i) obviously existed, even if not called that before the early 11th century. i) and iii) seem to be about the name of the kingdom rather than any accuracy dispute. Compare the name of the 'Holy Roman Empire' ... not a contemporary name, but you aren't disputing that. 'Kingdom of Germany', 'German Kingdom' and 'German Empire' are all frequently used in the period you are referring to ... HRE isn't ... so why no dispute tag in

WP:RM; just to be clear, you are not disputing are you that Germany, Italy and Burgundy were three different kingdoms? Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk

) 13:04, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

(ii) No evidence soever that they were limited and specific to (all) the German speaking duchies (that supposedly made up this kingdom). (i and iii) Well, that's what I'm trying to say, if it was not called like this. Lets call it by its name (e.g. East Francia). Mootros (talk) 13:14, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

Not all of the German kingdom is duchies; hundreds of counts, bishops, abbots, thousands of ministeriales and so on (not to mention all the 'imperial' cities), are dependent on the German kingdom and make up its structure independent of any duchy, or indeed the claims of the kingdom's kings to the imperial title or the kingdoms of Burgundy and Italy. East Francia is not the name of the kingdom (in modern or medieval historiography) after the 11th century, the name is 'Germany' or 'German kingdom' or some variant. There is quite a significant problem of overlap, true, both with East Francia and the time when the independent identities of the Burgundian and Lombard kingdoms are eroded, but the 'problems' you are raising in response to my questions look to me more like misunderstandings than problems. Are you confident you know enough about this topic to be intervening aggressively with this tagging? Tell me if I'm missing something. :) Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 13:39, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

Where is the evidence of shared social and legal institution beyond the role of the King and the attributed military obligations? Nowhere. Quite a dispute. Mootros (talk) 13:44, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

A bit

WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT now. If you want to find about royal counts, bishops, abbots, cities, ministeriales and so on, pick up a book ... this is why I asked you if you are confident you know enough about this topic to be intervening here. It's the HRE that has few shared institutions, not the German kingdom. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk

) 14:04, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

Or

WP:FRINGE view who add unsubstantiated tags. Septentrionalis PMAnderson

05:03, 11 May 2011 (UTC)

But what are the fringe views? There are

talk

) 18:49, 11 May 2011 (UTC)

As part of the consensus that wrote that page, I tell you:

• That is not a naming policy; it is a title policy.
• That it is based on several principles, none of which have much weight in moving this page.
• That it does not justify tagging content. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:36, 11 May 2011 (UTC)

The fronge view is the assertion that Germany had no common social or legal institutions before 1806. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:36, 11 May 2011 (UTC)

The neutrality issues are mostly related to the constant use of the word "Germany" before this time period (if I'm right). You don't use Germany to refer to

talk

) 19:57, 11 May 2011 (UTC)

Of course one can call the subject of Tacitus' Germania "Germany"; editions which call the work itself the Germania (as is now standard) call its subject Germany. [6] I'm not sure whether this is well-meaning political points, or lack of fluency - but it is not English. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:52, 11 May 2011 (UTC)

"Germania" is widely used when refering to Ancient Germania, not "Germany". The vast majority of the results from your query do not use "Germany" to refer to Germania at all, and neither does wikipedia (as should). The reasons are obvious, this is an encyclopedia. We should use the most common names, that's why

talk

) 22:01, 11 May 2011 (UTC)

PMA, Grey Fox is Dutch and something that should be noted (of which you may be aware) is that in modern continental Germanic languages "Germanic people" and "Germans" are completely distinguished by two different words, Germanen and Duitsers/Deutsche. This isn't historic, but is current, and explains why they are more surprised by the tendency in our culture to think of them as the same. And of course Grey Fox is sensitive of claims that such terminology implies superiority for the Federal Republic of Germany over the Netherlands. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 23:00, 11 May 2011 (UTC)

German and Germanic people are distinguished in English as well, it's just that they happen to use similar wording. Such as Anglo-Saxons were Germanic people, but not Germans. That I am sensitive about it is absolute nonsense. People of all backgrounds have pointed out these inaccuracies.

talk

) 23:16, 11 May 2011 (UTC)

Not as clearly. In English the only difference is an -ic, which is not a very powerful morpheme and in this case encourages you think of one thing as a kind of other thing (Germanic as a kind of German). BTW, that's not a very nice thing to suggest Grey Fox; some of the best editors are Dutch. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 23:36, 11 May 2011 (UTC)

Indeed, it's confusing. But you'll agree with me that there is a difference, such as how Vikings were Germanic, but not German. That's why it's important (this being an encyclopedia) to not use German when refering to Germanic, Germany when refering to Germania and indeed Germany when refering to this article's kingdom.

talk

) 12:18, 12 May 2011 (UTC)

If we finished this adjective article, it would include the Treaty of Westphalia, in which the Netherlands are separated from Germany. But National Causes (German, Dutch, English, and Outer Mongolian) have no place in this article. We have enough of that in articles on Silesia, Macedonia, and Lithuania; that the pattern of Eastern European articles should extend to Lower Saxony and the 10th century is distressing. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:49, 12 May 2011 (UTC)

With the Treaty of Westphalia the Netherlands became seperated from Spain and the Holy Roman Empire, not Germany. If I'm not mistaken the low countries were seperated from this German Kingdom when between 1384 and 1439 they became part of

talk

) 12:18, 12 May 2011 (UTC)

While even then this is largely a verbal question, I do not believe so. The Dukes of Burgundy were also Lords of Holland, Ghent and the other Low Countries; but that meant, like the Houses of Luxembourg and Lorraine later, they owed two fealties. Similarly, the Kings of England were Dukes of Normandy and Aquitaine without them ceasing to be part of France. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 14:26, 12 May 2011 (UTC)

I've never heard of the Dutch revolt as a war against Germany or that the Dutch 'gained independence from Germany'. I doubt the Dutch are that wrong about their own history. The Burgundian low countries were largely independent and at one point almost became an independent kingdom next to France, Burgundy and the HRE. I don't known much about englands acquisitions in France but I think the German Kingdom is different from France in that it was part of the larger HRE and you should be careful when comparing them.

talk

) 15:16, 12 May 2011 (UTC)

Nor do I contend that it was a revolt against Germany. But that merely means that Philip II did not call upon his uncle to intervene as overlord; this is partly a matter of intradynastic politics, and largely a matter that the Protestant princes would not have come, and would have actively hindered others. That the German kingdom largely ceased to function after the League of Augsburg is not in dispute. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:28, 12 May 2011 (UTC)

This has nothing to do with renaming the article though. I think if we ever want this article to become a

I don't care if it becomes a GA; most GA reviews I have seen have been conducted by utter incompetents. I care if it is a good article, an entirely different matter. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:34, 12 May 2011 (UTC)

This is written in English. And the implication that royaume d'Allemagne is unknown is unsupported. [7] Septentrionalis PMAnderson 14:26, 12 May 2011 (UTC)

It's written in English yes, but that doesn't mean it should be limited to English-language sources. Besides I'm pretty certain that in english "German Kingdom" is used widely more than "Kingdom of Germany".

talk

) 14:57, 12 May 2011 (UTC)

in english [sic] "German Kingdom" is used widely more than "Kingdom of Germany". That's testable. This rough guide shows that that was marginally true between 1871 and 1945, and is true no longer; examining the results shows false positives for "German kingdom", which (unlike the first two) can have a different shade of meaning in English. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:18, 12 May 2011 (UTC)

Interesting graphs, I must say Kingdom of Germany is used more than I expected, but we would have to examine all works (excluding false positives) to conclude which one is the most frequent. However I do not believe that German names for this realm are completely irrelevant. The German equivalent for German Kingdom 'Deutsches Reich' is used for this realm, whereas any name equivalent to Kingdom of Germany seems completely absent. This is not a small detail when talking about the history of Germany and seems to be the source of most disputes. I think this give extra weight to the use of German Kingdom, you don't. But perhaps we can explain this better to the public by giving this page an etymology section.

talk

) 15:56, 12 May 2011 (UTC)

In point of fact Königreich Deutschland is not completely unknown; but the change of both words is much larger than in the English equivalent. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:22, 12 May 2011 (UTC)

When you speak of the "Deutsche(s) Reich" in German, no one will think you talk of a medieval polity. Everyone think you'd talk about the Reich after 1871. --JakobvS (talk) 06:36, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

The fact that this article has no equivalence in de.wiki needs attention. Effectively, this kingdom had no own istitutions, which were the institution of the Empire instead: when a new king was elected, he did not became a German king, but the elected emperor. The Italian and Burgundian coronations were solely a pro forma, the power over the two other countries starting with the (German) election, not with the local "national" coronations. Effectively, I repeat, the division between German kingdom, Italian kingdom and Burgundian realm, was only a mental concept without effectivity. Institutionally, Germany during the Middle Ages is quite similar to nowadays England. --Jonny Bee Goo (talk) 19:30, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

That's a problem for the German Wikipedia, not for us. In English, which differentiates between Kingdom and Empire, the Hohenzollern monarchy is the German Empire/Empire of Germany; it is not a Kingdom (except insofar as it is the Kingdom of Prussia, which is also differentiated). Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:29, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

It's not a problem for the German Wikipedia, the problem is here. I doubt Germans are that wrong about their own history. On a sidenote I find your revert [8] of Mootros, calling his edits 'tendentious' a bit uncivil. He's raised doubts on the sources you provided.

talk

) 13:47, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I agree the problem is here. It consists of an editor who is capable of tagging a sourced assertion that there was a separate Chancellors for Italy and Burgundy, when that is precisely what Bryce says, and another editor who can claim that this has been discussed when it hasn't. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:36, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

If I'm not mistaken Mootros asked for a source on how Germany had its own courts, laws, and chanceries, you provided one and he finds your source doubtful, hence the tag may stay. Perhaps you can provide a full citation? But the book seems to be about Burgundy, not Germany. And I too find the sentence rather misleading. As during most of the middle ages cities and villages or districts had their own courts and laws, not laws created by a central authority.

talk

) 15:59, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

You are mistaken, on several grounds. Mootros tagged two things; I sourced one (not to Bryce) and rewrote the other to what Bryce says. Furthermore, one of Mootros' edit summaries says specifically that he does not question that Burgundy has its own laws, but that Germany had a uniform law, which is not what the sentence in question says. (I would doubt that it did; pre-modern England and France didn't.) Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:45, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

The German kingdom pre-existed the Empire, so it is not completely true that its institutions were just those of the Empire. It's not even true for some time after the creation of the Empire. The king and the emperor could even be distinct persons with distinct courts acting independently (admittedly, this rarely happened). Nor is it true that the division between Burgundy, Italy and Germany was merely a mental concept. Certainly it was after a certain point, but it did not start out that way. In a sense they were even distinct down to the end: since much of the lands once part of Burgundy and those lands called Imperial Italy were unencircled (and it wasn't an oversight). Of course, the institutions by which the king or emperor(-elect) exerted authority in Burgundy and Italy were usually different from those by which he exercised it in Germany proper. (I have no idea what the statement that medieval Germany was institutionally alike to England today is supposed to tell us.) Srnec (talk) 23:11, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

If a Kingdom of Germany really pre-existed the HRE that would mean Conrad I and Henry the Fowler ruled it, but in most sources (English and German) they are simply known as the kings of East Francia. And it should be noted that Henry's rule was pretty much limited to Saxony and Franconia.

talk

) 15:37, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

There was never a state of this name, as the absence of any equivalent article in the German Wikipedia, presumably written by people who know some German history, testifies. This article is an ahistorical attempt to impose modern conceptions of statehood onto a period which didn't think about states and nations in the same way do. There was no German nation and no German state in this period, just a collection of peoples between the Meuse and the Elbe speaking various Germanic dialects and owing alliegance to various feudal lords. The word "Germany" (Deutschland) did not come into use until the 15th century. Not even the word "German" (Deutsch) in the modern sense was in use at this time - German-speaking people thought of themselves as Franks or Saxons or Bavarians. Following the death of Louis the Pious in 840, the Carolingian Empire split into three kingdoms (using that term very loosely). The eastern one should be called the

Nope. These are misunderstandings. Read the talk pages. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 23:10, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

They are not misunderstandungs, they are historical facts. If they're not, demonstrate why they are not. Intelligent Mr Toad (talk) 12:56, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

IMT, read the talk page and its archive. It's disrespectful to expect people to repeat themselves over and over again. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 14:58, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

There's a citation for the term Diutsche lant (and two similar terms) from the 11th century on this very page. Srnec (talk) 17:55, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

That translates to German Land, not "Kingdom of Germany". Mr Toad has a point, and this article is still rightfully disputed. 81.68.140.74 (talk) 18:03, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

I quote Mr Toad: "The word 'Germany' (Deutschland) did not come into use until the 15th century." Srnec (talk) 18:05, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

Sorry that's true. But to still name this article "Kingdom of Germany" is highly confusing. The name is a False cognate. I'm collecting a number of sources to try to resolve the problems with this article. To just point Mr Toad to the talk page archive as if theres been a clear concensus is wrong. 81.68.140.74 (talk) 18:11, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

By the way still in the fourteenth century the plural term 'Deutsche lande' was more common than the singular 'Deutschland', to show that the Germanic-speakings lands did not constitute a single polity. 81.68.140.74 (talk) 18:22, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

@The Dutch IP, you are confusing things. Srnec quoted that Diutsche lant in response to Mr Toad's claim The word "Germany" (Deutschland) did not come into use until the 15th century., so your response is irrelevant ... i.e. he was not making any claim about Kingdom of Germany as a wording. Also, what do you believe to be false cognate here? You appear to misunderstand the term, but maybe I'm missing something.

I suggest parading ignorance of the Middle Ages in front of a bunch of medievalists is unlikely to help move any cause on here. The term "Kingdom of Germany" is used by reliable sources in English for a state which, as it happens, had "Germany" or some variant as its common name among its neighbours. Yes, it probably wasn't a very important identity among the mass of the population (not living next to Slavs or Wallisch), yes there were plenty of other identities (Bavarian, Zeelander, and so on), but no, "Germany" was not invented by Bismarck or Adolf Hitler like you learned at school. If people believe they are too good to read the contributions of other Wikipedians on exactly the points being raised, at least condescend to do some reading about the Middle Ages in some reliable published sources (some stuff in this article actually!!!). If there are problems with this article they are not in the terminology, but rather in the article's overlap with Holy Roman Empire. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 19:38, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

No need to get arrogant here Deacon. I happen to be a historian too and I happen to read reliable sources. I used my reply to raise other points as well. And as for your question on what the false cognates are here, people seem to often confuse German vs Germanic, Germania vs Germany and

diutisc vs German. 81.68.140.74 (talk

) 19:57, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

1) Words which we can translate as "Germany" are used so frequently in medieval texts for this kingdom, from the early 11th century onwards, that I cannot possibly believe users arguing the line argued here can have much familiarity with the era and its literary sources. It's like someone saying the term "Europe" wasn't coined until the 29th century; it's hardly 'arrogance' to recognize ignorance in the assertion. 2) diutisc and "German" are not cognates. Modern English "Germany" is a borrowing from Classical Latin Germania (it was not the common medieval Latin term for the kingdom though!); English people called all Germans (including, then, the ancestors of people in Austria, Swabian Switzerland and the Netherlands) Dutch from at least the 15th century until the 19th century (the word "German" joining Dutch from the 17th century, slowly gaining precedence thereafter). 3) 'Germanic versus German' would not have made sense as a distinction in the Middle Ages. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 20:14, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

"Which we can translate as Germany", that's where it goes wrong Deacon. Kingdom of Germany translates to "Königreich Deutschland" and I'm pretty sure medieval texts don't literally use that title right? And your claim that "Dutch" always referred to Germans from the 15th century until the 19th century is wrong too. [9] Here's an English book from 1868 on the "German Language" (read: not the "Dutch language"). The word Dutch is used only once, referring to Holland. And [10]here's a British book titled "German popular stories" from 1823, again not "Dutch popular stories". And [11]here's a conversation between

talk

) 01:07, 24 April 2011 (UTC)

Nah ... once again you haven't even read what was written. You appear to believe that I claimed 'German' wasn't used in English Dutch stopped being used; I was pretty clear that both have been used at the same time. But don't let what people actually say concern you. Just randomly post 'responses' as you please.

You happen to be right that the English used the word to refer to themselves in the early middle ages (owing to a secondary meaning of the word), but that is due to the fact that they don't have much contact with Germans as Germans (as opposed to Frisians, Hollanders, Flemings, Lorrainers, and so on). But this usage does not occur in the period we are discussing. You're blurring the chronology to suite your nationalist agenda. Anglo-Latin texts anyway are pretty clear that they know the English aren't Germans (but Hollanders and Swabians are), though they do believe themselves to come from Saxony. In the late Middle Ages 'Dutch' refers all Germanic speakers who are not English or Scandinavian (as does Teutonici and Germani); the guys we refer to as 'Dutch' today would be, as far as someone back then was concerned, a random collection of German lands that happened not to get included in Belgium or Germany; but the eventual restriction of the use (not complete until the 20th century) to these guys at the mouth of the Rhine is merely a happenstance product of the fact that these are the Germans the English had most interaction with. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 12:35, 24 April 2011 (UTC)

You just changed your original claim that the Dutch and Germans were indistinguishable from at least the 15th century until the 19th century to the period of the late middle ages (1300-1500). As for me supposedly having a nationalist agenda, I'm by no means a nationalist. You however seem to be infatuated with German nationalism, judging from your constant use of

talk

) 19:55, 24 April 2011 (UTC)

You obviously don't have the foggiest clue about English identity. But screw facts, right? As it happens I'm very far from giving the slightest fuck about Dutch or German nationalisms and identity today. Flag-worshiping and song-singing I leave to those into that kind of thing. As far as I'm concerned understanding the terminology of previous ages is the priority here, not distorting the past to suite whatever frivolous ideology is current at present. If you feel threatened by the fact that Rhine-mouth dwellers in previous ages were grouped as Germans, it's your problem dealing with facts, not mine. Happy Easter. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 23:44, 24 April 2011 (UTC)

Except I don't feel threatened by any historic texts, I'm just baffled by your distorted view on this subject. You seem to uphold the idea that Dutch people "were Germans" and that German ethnicy existed for more than a thousand years. I know enough about English identity, you however know little about German and Dutch identity. Try to distuingish the Germanic tribes with modern Germans, please. Then you'll have a better chance of understanding the terminology of previous ages.

talk

) 23:16, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

Someone here believes "Germanic tribes" are the same as "modern Germans"? Point him out please. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 23:25, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

In every history book I've read on this period, and throughout the rest of Wikipedia, the Holy Roman Empire is referred to as having been formed of the kingdoms of Germany, Italy and Burgundy. "King of the Germans" is the title of uncrowned emperors. The established term in English is the Kingdom of Germany. Sorry, 81.68.140.74, but you are very clearly wrong here. — OwenBlacker (Talk) 21:15, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

I've logged in. Owenblacker when you say "throughout the rest of wikipedia" I think you limit yourself to the English wikipedia, where over the years a few people have inserted "Kingdom of Germany" into other articles (like Deacon did at Holy Roman Empire). But there's no German article on this. That would mean the few british sources that coin such a name here are much better than any German historian on his own history, as well as any German wikipedian on the German wikipedia? Indeed Kingdom of Germany translates to "Königreich Deutschland" and this kingdom does not exist! I know a kingdom as described on this page exists, the only problem here is this articles name. Hell even the picture used on this page to show the supposed kingdom doesn't mention a Kingdom of Germany but a Regnum Teutonicorum.

talk

) 23:55, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

There is no reason Germans should know their own history better than, say, Canadians should know it. Being German will give you know natural grasp of German history. A regnum Teutonicorum (Latin, literally, for "kingdom of the Teutons") is a kingdom of Germany (just like the regnum Francorum is the kingdom of France). Srnec (talk) 04:45, 24 April 2011 (UTC)

Indeed, but that doesn't answer the question why there is no German article on "Kingdom of Germany"? Assuming you have some knowledge of German, what would you call such an article in German? Is this is a mystery? Also literally Regnum Teutonicorum translates to "Germanic

talk

) 19:55, 24 April 2011 (UTC)

There's no important semantic difference between Kingdom of the Germans, German Kingdom and Kingdom of Germany ... all these terms would be interchangeable. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 12:35, 24 April 2011 (UTC)

Yes there is, the title German Kingdom would suit this article far better. The title Kingdom of Germany is wrong because 1) It pretends to be a kingdom with well-established borders, 2) It wrongfully translates from both Dutch and German titles for this kingdom and 3) It's underused, most reliable sources refer to it differently.

talk

) 19:55, 24 April 2011 (UTC)

Deacon is right. There is no difference in English here. That aside, the kingdom's borders were as well-established as those of the contemporary kingdom of France. "Germanic Reich" is not the correct translation of "regnum teutonicorum", although "realm" is an acceptable translation of "regnum". (Who said anything about translating Dutch? This article doesn't need to make any translations of its own of any language, although some should be uncontroversial.) It is not at all underused, read the references section. Srnec (talk) 04:16, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

The borders of the realm perhaps, but not a kingdom titled "Germany". As for translating from Dutch and German, these are the two surviving languages of this realm. It would be wise to include Dutch / German sources and not just outside sources, and both Dutch and German sources seem to correspond to each other. You've admitted that this article needs to avoid controversies. That includes the current title. I've checked the references and this article seems to be based on the opinion of a single British writer (Gillingham).

talk

) 13:34, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

The English word "Germany" did not exist in the Middle Ages, but many terms in many languages which can be and are translated as "Germany" did. Certainly it would be wise to include sources not just in English, but it is not as if non-Dutch or non-German sources are "outside" sources. They're as in as any. The title is not controversial, if you'd really checked the sources you'd find it in Reynolds and Reuter as well. It's also in Horst Fuhrmann, and Eugene Cox uses it. It would be silly for me to try and cite more, because it is uncontroversial and widely used. It's like trying to prove that there was a Roman Empire from citations. Srnec (talk) 22:24, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

I'm a German and I'm quite amused to be absolutely honest. In German literature you read "deutsches Reich" or "Reich der Deutschen" but the German word Reich simply cannot be translated into modern English. That's why you have to use either the word Empire or the word Kingdom, depending on which kind of system it refers. The 1871 established Deutsches Reich is absolutely correctly called German Empire in English--no one arguing that "Deutsches Kaiserreich" (the literal translation of Empire) isn't used in German sources... And the medieval German state is referred to as deutsches Reich as well and must therefore be translated as Kingdom of Germany. I don't understand where's the problem to be honest. And to everyone who doesn't believe that medieval Germans already had a national identity: read some books of that time, and you will see. -- Orthographicus (talk) 08:51, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

It must therefore be translated to Kingdom of Germany? That makes little sense. It still translates to German Empire, German Realm or German Kingdom, not Kingdom of Germany.

talk

) 13:34, 26 April 2011 (UTC)