Talk:Never again

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Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Yoninah (talk) 20:37, 25 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(
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"Never again" memorial at Treblinka
"Never again" memorial at Treblinka
  • ALT0:... that Carter, Reagan, Bush, Clinton, and Obama vowed never again (pictured), but genocide took place during each of their presidencies?

Created by Buidhe (talk). Self-nominated at 14:36, 6 May 2020 (UTC).[reply]


General: Article is new enough and long enough
Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems
Hook: Hook has been verified by provided inline citation
Image: Image is freely licensed, used in the article, and clear at 100px.
QPQ: Done.

Overall: I prefer ALT0 but all work HickoryOughtShirt?4 (talk) 21:41, 10 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

GA Review

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Reviewer: CaroleHenson (talk · contribs) 07:53, 10 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]


Hello, it would be my honor to review this article. My approach is to review each section, make minor edits as I go (links, punctuation, etc.) to save us both time, and then evaluate the article against the GA criteria. Feel free to edit any changes you disagree with. I will start on it in the morning.–CaroleHenson (talk) 07:53, 10 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, Buidhe, I probably won't be able to do much on this until tonight. Just as an FYI.–CaroleHenson (talk) 18:07, 10 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
No problem, there's no deadline! buidhe 18:13, 10 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Introduction

  • The content in the introduction is good.
  • It would be better to have a bit more summary information, like a bit about the origins / first use, UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights, popularization by Meir Kahane, etc. — so that the introduction has two paragraphs.–CaroleHenson (talk) 16:57, 10 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the updates to the intro.–CaroleHenson (talk) 16:19, 11 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Origins

  • This book has a chapter on [1] the Masada poem with the line "Never again shall Masada fall". There is information about the historic and political background, meaning, perception, Masada representing Zion, etc.
  • I think two or so sentences will helps set the historical context and lead into the Holocaust discussion in the next sentence. (i.e., how do we manage all acts of suppression, discrimination and exile leading up to the pinnacle of evil, genocide?)–CaroleHenson (talk) 17:36, 10 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Excellent, looks good, thanks!–CaroleHenson (talk) 16:20, 11 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Regarding In postwar Israel, the behavior of Jews during the Holocaust was unfavorably contrasted with the behavior of the defenders of Masada.[1][2] - could you expand on that a little. In what way was their behavior unfavorable?
    • Done
Excellent, looks good!–CaroleHenson (talk) 23:11, 11 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I added a link to Israel#After World War II for post-war Israel
  • Great job on the second paragraph.
  • In the last sentence, can you add a few words about the way that "never again" was used or its significance in It was used on Israeli kibbutzim by the end of the 1940s, and was used in the Swedish documentary Mein Kampf in 1961.[9]–CaroleHenson (talk) 16:32, 11 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    • Sadly all the source says is "The phrase was used in secular kibbutzim there in the late 1940s; it was used in a Swedish documentary on the Holocaust in 1961." and I cannot find more information.
Gotcha! Thanks for checking.–CaroleHenson (talk) 23:10, 11 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Definition

  • I changed the quotations marks within a quotation to single quotes.
  • This section looks good.–CaroleHenson (talk) 16:38, 11 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Contemporary usage

  • I moved one sentence here so that there are examples following that sentence — and a few sentences here to bring home the improper use of "never again" without action to back it up. How are those changes?–CaroleHenson (talk) 16:50, 11 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    I have no objection. buidhe 22:56, 11 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Other uses

Just a thought

  • I wonder if it would be good to have a Popular culture section about anti-genocide poems, songs, books, film, etc. that may have been created with "Never again" as its theme - perhaps something from this query
  • Another thought is if there are any more examples of organizations that fight to end genocide perhaps something from [2], or books, etc. - like these books [3]

–CaroleHenson (talk) 17:18, 11 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Sgt. Leonard Matlovich (13203725)
Unfortunately, in my experience "popular culture" sections tend to be a magnet for original research and should usually be avoided. The number of works which use the phrase would be very long, and primary source uses of the quote by politicians and such without analysis would be a very long, indiscrimate list, which would be better suited for wikiquote. It doesn't help that the phrase is invoked in a wide variety of contexts which are not necesarily related or even referencing the use as discussed by RS (see image).
This article is about the phrase, we have a separate article
prevention of genocide which covers the organizations whose mission is preventing genocide. buidhe 23:01, 11 May 2020 (UTC)[reply
]
Okay. Makes sense.–CaroleHenson (talk) 23:14, 11 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

GA criteria

here
for what they are not)
  1. It is reasonably well written.
    a (prose, spelling, and grammar):
    b (
    lists
    )    :
  2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.
    a (references):
    b (citations to
    reliable sources):
    c (OR):
    d (copyvio and plagiarism
    ):
  3. It is broad in its coverage.
    a (major aspects):
    b (focused):
  4. It follows the
    neutral point of view
    policy    .
    Fair representation without bias:
  5. It is stable.
    No edit wars, etc.:
  6. It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.
    a (images are tagged and non-free images have
    suitable captions
    )    :

Overall:
Pass/Fail:

· · ·


Comments

  • The article is very well-written, conforms to MOS guidelines, with properly formatted citations to reliable sources. There is no evidence of original research. (1a, 1b, 2a, 2b, 2c.)
Please disambiguate Frontline in citation #7.
  • The copyvio report identified quotations and titles of organizations. (2d)
  • The article covers the major aspects without going into to much detail. (3a, 3b)
There are a couple of places where I have suggested the addition of a bit of clarifying information. I also thought it might be nice to have a Popular culture section and a section about ways in which people have wrote about ending genocide or organizations that were established to never again have acts of genocide.
  • The article is neutral and stable. (4, 5)
  • The images in the article are properly tagged, relevant, and with proper citations. (6a, 6b)

–CaroleHenson (talk) 17:35, 11 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your edits. Looks good and passes as a good article!–CaroleHenson (talk) 23:15, 11 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Buchenwald photo

The third and fourth lines of the message in the photo of a sign at Buchenwald are just barely legible, despite that part of the photo being overexposed. The text is (with original spelling and punctuation): "Form the Antinazifront!/Rembember the Millions/of victims Murdered by the Nazis/DEATH TO THE NAZI CRIMINALS". The word "death" is not entirely clear, but seems correct.

It may be desirable to include the third line in the caption, because it completes the sentence that begins "Remember the millions". I didn't make any edits, though. Roches (talk) 19:04, 29 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Roches, I made the change here, with a cited source for the message on the sign.–CaroleHenson (talk) 20:47, 29 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Page protection

Due to the recent edits by IP users (uncited content, improper headings, etc.), I have requested temporary page protection at Wikipedia:Requests_for_page_protection#Never_again.–CaroleHenson (talk) 21:01, 29 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Per this version [4], the page will be protected for several days.–CaroleHenson (talk) 18:27, 30 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

'Nunca Mas' in Argentina is cited in a context missing the background

When mentioning the use of the term 'Nunca mas' (Never again) in Argentina, there are two significant facts missing which render the whole section too vague: 1) The term was the title of an elaborate examination report, in which the

Forced Disappearance of about 8,000 people during the military dictatorship from 1976 to 1983 was proven - they had 'disappeared' from life due to secret abduction and subsequent extrajudicial killing (=murder) by semi-legal/covert government forces. This was examined in 1983 after the fall of the military dictatorship by the National Commission on the Disappearance of Persons (CONADEP). 2) Thus, the term is strongly tied to the complex of the (summed up, numbers differing in literature) about 25,000-30,000 dead 'Desaparecidos' (The Disappeared). The complex of the Argentinian 'Disappeared' or span. 'Desaparecidos' hence must also be cited in relation to the use of 'Nunca Mas' there. To not be too critical: The text now may be seen as a strong generalisation of the use of the term in Argentina - however, in this case the details are important imho. Pittigrilli (talk) 22:52, 6 June 2021 (UTC)[reply
]

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