Talk:New York (state)
| This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the New York (state) article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
| Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Why is this article titled "New York (state)"?
In the early days of Wikipedia, this article was simply titled "New York", like other U.S. states. Due to the potential confusion with redirect to New York City. Before the move, more than 75,000 ambiguous links to "New York" were checked and pointed to the appropriate destination, mostly New York (state), New York City, and occasionally other uses such as New York (magazine) . This situation had grown out of 15 years of ambiguity on the meaning of "New York", and is now fully resolved.
Historical discussions took place in drafting debate and a renewed move request, the state article was moved to "New York (state)" on July 19, 2017, and "New York" now holds the disambiguation page. An additional RM was held in Jan 2023 attempting to move the page to "New York State", but was closed unsuccessfully after near-unanimous opposition. Was Manhattan/New York City really bought for a very small amount of currency (be it $24, one string of wampum, etc.)?
No. Charles Gehring, Director of the New Netherland Project, explains this myth in a video (skip ahead to 3:03) by the New York State Museum. In it, he says, "This is one of the biggest myths ... pure fabrication. It says in the records that it was 60 guilders worth of goods. 60 guilders worth of goods would have been a lot of hard goods that the Indians couldn't produce themselves. You couldn't place a price on the ... things that they were unable to make, the things they didn't have the technology for. The $24 figure was attached to the document when it was translated in the 1880s. The translators looked up the rate of exchange at the time and 60 guilders was $24. Nobody has ever even adjusted that for inflation over the years, so you not only have an incorrect rate of exchange, but the whole idea of what 60 guilders would have been worth to the Indians at the time is totally wrong." US$24 in 1880 would be worth $758 today, though Gehring states the rate of exchange was also incorrect.
|
 | This article is written in American English, which has its own spelling conventions (color, defense, traveled) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus. |
Good article nominee | Not listed |
 | This  level-4 vital article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale.It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
 | Several proposals to rename this article have been made and are described in this page's FAQ. Before making a new move proposal, please review past discussions. |
| This article has previously been nominated to be moved.
Discussions:
|
|
|||||||||
|
This page has archives. Sections older than 60 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 5 sections are present. |
"Official Name"
The article currently makes the unsourced claim
- New York, officially the State of New York, is a state in the Northeastern United States.
But the state's official website[1] uses "New York", "State of New York", and "New York State" almost interchangeably. If anything, "New York State" is the most common usage, even in the official state logo itself. I'm editing the article to reflect this. 23:34, 3 March 2023 (UTC) By the Beard of Worf! (talk) 23:34, 3 March 2023 (UTC)
- "[Preamble] WE THE PEOPLE of the State of New York...", from the NYS Constitution.[2].--☾Loriendrew☽ ☏(ring-ring) 23:48, 3 March 2023 (UTC)
- First, that's pure WP:OR based on a primary source that doesn't explicitly support the claim. Second, later that same sentence capitalizes "Freedom", so capitalizing "State" there doesn't mean much; everywhere else the constitution uses "state of New York", "New York state" or just plain "New York", so those three would be at least as "official" by that measure. Taking out the claim of one "official" name was a good edit. Station1 (talk) 08:30, 4 March 2023 (UTC)]
- It sounds like you haven't read enough legal instruments -- articles of incorporation, LLC operating agreements, partnership agreements, constitutions, etc. Actually, as most attorneys are aware, it is quite rare for an instrument used to constitute a legal entity to repeat the full official name of the entity every time the entity needs to be referred to within the document. The most important thing is what the document calls the entity at the beginning of the document, which is "the State of New York". --Coolcaesar (talk) 16:00, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
- It's quite true that first use in text is most important. That generally holds for non-legal documents as well. That doesn't change the fact that the constitution is a primary source; that it does not explicitly say that New York has an official name (unlike, say, the 1898 NYC charter); that throughout the constitution, as well as most state laws, when it uses the term "state of New York", which is not a shortened form, it does not capitalize the "s", unlike the non-standard capitalization used throughout that first sentence. In short, it's an insufficient source for WP to say "State of New York" is the one and only official name. Station1 (talk) 17:31, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
- The Constitution uses a lot of initial caps in that preamble. It actually reads "We The People of the State of New York". It's hard to infer from that line that "State of" is the true and official name. By the Beard of Worf! (talk) 18:40, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
- It's quite true that first use in text is most important. That generally holds for non-legal documents as well. That doesn't change the fact that the constitution is a primary source; that it does not explicitly say that New York has an official name (unlike, say, the 1898 NYC charter); that throughout the constitution, as well as most state laws, when it uses the term "state of New York", which is not a shortened form, it does not capitalize the "s", unlike the non-standard capitalization used throughout that first sentence. In short, it's an insufficient source for WP to say "State of New York" is the one and only official name. Station1 (talk) 17:31, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
- It sounds like you haven't read enough legal instruments -- articles of incorporation, LLC operating agreements, partnership agreements, constitutions, etc. Actually, as most attorneys are aware, it is quite rare for an instrument used to constitute a legal entity to repeat the full official name of the entity every time the entity needs to be referred to within the document. The most important thing is what the document calls the entity at the beginning of the document, which is "the State of New York". --Coolcaesar (talk) 16:00, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
- First, that's pure
"New York (U.S. state" listed at Redirects for discussion
The redirect New York (U.S. state has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 February 21 § New York (U.S. state until a consensus is reached. Utopes (talk / cont) 21:05, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
Shall this title be moved back to New York
I am motivated to see the FAQ, but I really wanted to start a requested move, but this discourages me to do so, thinking that it may lead to significant opposition. Is there any reason behind the "ambiguous" title and the confusion with New York City? Toadette (Let's discuss together!) 21:52, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
- I'm sure if you read the previous discussions, participants will have voiced a lot of reasons. A big one if that if someone just links to New York, it's unclear whether they meant to link to the state or the city, since they are both commonly called that. So having a disambiguation page there lets that get sorted out. -- Beland (talk) 01:09, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
- I will soon start a new discussion. Toadette (Let's discuss together!) 20:03, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
Requested move 24 March 2024
- The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The result of the move request was: not moved.
WP:SNOW closing. There is overwhelming opposition to the proposed move. BD2412 T 02:08, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
]
New York (state) → New York – Failed RM weeks ago at Talk:New York. I am reinitiating the discussion again as it is not an ambiguous term. Ok with Georgia (state) as there is a country with the same name, but except Washington (state), all U.S. states are just referred to as just <state name> with no disambiguators. If opposing, links to verify the ambiguity with New York City can be provided. Just initiating the discussion which was previously withdrawn. It is also to note that typing "New York" ings the city as the top results so what is the point then. Toadette (Let's discuss together!) 20:12, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
- Also noting in the FAQ box how is the matter "now fully resolved" after a decade and half? Toadette (Let's discuss together!) 20:15, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose, ambiguous, and ambiguous titling helps no reader.
There is merit to the idea of changing Name (state) to State of Name. New York, Washington, Georgia, it works for them all. SmokeyJoe (talk) 06:35, 28 March 2024 (UTC)- A little bit off-topic, but if Republic of Georgia. JohnCWiesenthal (talk) 15:29, 28 March 2024 (UTC)]
- Georgia (country): “the country was commonly called the "Republic of Georgia" to distinguish it from the State of Georgia in the United States, although that name did not carry legal recognition”. SmokeyJoe (talk) 00:20, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
- A little bit off-topic, but if
- Oppose per my reasoning a few weeks ago, the city is called just "New York" per the AP Stylebook, Google Maps and Pandemic (board game) which are all American. Crouch, Swale (talk) 20:27, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose. The assertion that New York is "not an ambiguous term" is quite ridiculous. 162 etc. (talk) 20:56, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose. For the reasons stated above. --Coolcaesar (talk) 22:33, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose do we really need to do this again? "New York" is a common name just for the city. Elli (talk | contribs) 22:46, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose a move to WP:NATDIS. JohnCWiesenthal (talk) 00:33, 25 March 2024 (UTC)]
- I much agree with this idea. 'The State of New York' clarifies that it is the state, and looks smooth. I hope this idea is taken into consideration!
- -Georg Z. Mehling Georg Georgxzl 03:24, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
- Not unless all other states are moved to their own unwieldy and uncommonly-used official names, like Commonwealth of Virginia --Gimmethegepgun (talk) 19:34, 27 March 2024 (UTC)]
- From Guadalajara City. JohnCWiesenthal (talk) 19:43, 27 March 2024 (UTC)]
- What you are suggesting is not a disambiguation, though, you are suggesting using the official name instead of WP:COMMONNAME when every other state uses the common name, including Georgia and Washington, two others that are ambiguous --Gimmethegepgun (talk) 22:19, 27 March 2024 (UTC)]
- Well then, we might as well move those two to State of New York. It's not like the use of the "State of..." prefix is unprecedented (see State of Mexico, State of Palestine, State of Vietnam, etc.). JohnCWiesenthal (talk) 22:42, 27 March 2024 (UTC)]
- According to the State of Mexico page, that isn't its official name in the first place, it's officially just Mexico. Its common name Edomex is a portmanteau of Estado de México, which literally translates to State of Mexico, which means that it's appropriate to call it that according to WP:NATDIS. So it has no precedential value here. As for the other two, the articles don't seem to say anything about the common name so I can't come to a conclusion on that, though I would note that the State of Vietnam that the article refers to no longer exists, which likely means that that's the current common name for it by both historians and laypeople to refer to that specific political entity or period of time --Gimmethegepgun (talk) 23:41, 27 March 2024 (UTC)]
- According to the State of Mexico page, that isn't its official name in the first place, it's officially just Mexico. Its common name Edomex is a portmanteau of Estado de México, which literally translates to State of Mexico, which means that it's appropriate to call it that according to
- Well then, we might as well move those two to
- To be fair, there's also a region called Azerbaijan (Iran) (whose name actually predates that of the country), so the example of disambiguation in the policy isn't even as far-fetched. Chaotıċ Enby (talk · contribs) 18:27, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
- What you are suggesting is not a disambiguation, though, you are suggesting using the official name instead of
- From
- Why would you think ]
- I would say New York State is preferable to State of New York, however I presumed that New York State was an unofficial name for New York, according to JohnCWiesenthal. I did some research afterwards and realized that it actually is one of the official names for New York. Georg Georgxzl 15:19, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
- New York State will be misrecognised for State University of New York. SmokeyJoe (talk) 00:23, 29 March 2024 (UTC)]
- No it won't, everyone calls that SUNY --Gimmethegepgun (talk) 01:30, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
- I would say New York State is preferable to State of New York, however I presumed that New York State was an unofficial name for New York, according to JohnCWiesenthal. I did some research afterwards and realized that it actually is one of the official names for New York. Georg Georgxzl 15:19, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
- I much agree with this idea. '
- Oppose, as New York is very commonly used to refer to NYC, not necessarily the state. ɴᴋᴏɴ21 ❯❯❯ talk 00:45, 25 March 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose. This entire nomination, and the one from just a few weeks ago, completely fails to account for the extensive reasoning behind the current titles of all the article, and frankly is a waste of everyone's time. This should be closed immediately. The reasoning is simple: "New York" is incredibly ambiguous. And the state is not a clear primary meaning of the term. No moves should be made, and I'd advise the RM poster to actually read the prior discussions and not just make reactive assumptions based on a glance. oknazevad (talk) 00:52, 25 March 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose just to pile on per WP:PTOPIC (there isn't one). — AjaxSmack 16:52, 25 March 2024 (UTC)]
- Oppose per ]
- I thought the official branding was State of New York (which I suggested). Why not use that alternative title? JohnCWiesenthal (talk) 17:59, 25 March 2024 (UTC)]
- Branding is different from legal naming. Legal documents will refer to the "State of New York", while logos, websites, etc. usually use "New York State" or just "New York" (see the source I provided". "New York State" is just more common and concise, and thus makes a better article title. estar8806 (talk) ★ 19:51, 25 March 2024 (UTC)
- While not the worst choice of title, the parenthetical is used in part for consistency with other ambiguous state names (like Washington (state) and to ease the use of the pipe trick in city, state, constructions. oknazevad (talk) 23:56, 25 March 2024 (UTC)
- Fair point. But I would also argue that "Georgia State" more commonly refers to the university than the state, and Washington State is ambiguous. I'm also not sure how many people use "Washington State" or "Georgia State", rather than just using the name of the state. As Washington is the only other state that has "(state)" for disambiguation (Georgia has "(U.S. state)"), preserving consistency with one other article just doesn't feel as important when we bring COMMONNAME into the equation. estar8806 (talk) ★ 18:51, 26 March 2024 (UTC)
- A great reason to use State of New York instead. JohnCWiesenthal (talk) 19:15, 26 March 2024 (UTC)]
- A great reason to use
- Fair point. But I would also argue that "Georgia State" more commonly refers to the university than the state, and Washington State is ambiguous. I'm also not sure how many people use "Washington State" or "Georgia State", rather than just using the name of the state. As Washington is the only other state that has "(state)" for disambiguation (Georgia has "(U.S. state)"), preserving consistency with one other article just doesn't feel as important when we bring COMMONNAME into the equation. estar8806 (talk) ★ 18:51, 26 March 2024 (UTC)
- I thought the official branding was
- Oppose. It's very, very obvious that New York City is commonly referred to simply as New York. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:46, 26 March 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose "New York" is highly ambiguous and depends upon context. Since there was opposition to moving it to New York State, this article must remain permanently disambiguated. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 03:35, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
- What about an alternative title like State of New York? JohnCWiesenthal (talk) 03:44, 27 March 2024 (UTC)]
- Because it's not the common name. See WP:COMMONNAME. No one uses that except for lawyers, and only in the most formal writings like contracts (in which choice-of-law clauses frequently reference "the law of the state of New York", leaving "state" uncapitalized). That phrase is not used in less formal contexts like lawyer magazines, newspapers, or law reviews. --Coolcaesar (talk) 14:41, 27 March 2024 (UTC)]
- What about an alternative title like
- Oppose since the title obviously is ambiguous, and readers from all but one country in the world are far more likely to be familiar with the city than with the state. --R'n'B (call me Russ) 00:16, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
- Strong oppose. “New York” is absolutely an ambiguous term, and outwith the US the term refers more to the city than the state. Velociraptor888 (talk) 17:05, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Requested move 29 March 2024
- The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The result of the move request was: not moved. Looks like it is
snowing again. Closing this for almost the same reason as before. (non-admin closure) JuniperChill (talk) 12:19, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
]
New York (state) → State of New York – Tons of people were in favor of moving the title to such in the two previous RM’s. I don’t see any reason to NOT move the title to such. Who’s in? DirtySocks357(WreckItRalph) (talk) 15:40, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose Not at all the ]
- Oppose. Too colloquial. And besides, New York state is surely more common than the proposal. Nohomersryan (talk) 16:01, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose. "State of New York" is not remotely the common name. — Amakuru (talk) 16:07, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
- Support per WP:NATDIS. JohnCWiesenthal (talk) 17:55, 29 March 2024 (UTC)]
- Since nobody refers to it as the "State of New York" in conversation or print, I don't see how you think that policy supports this RM. – Muboshgu (talk) 18:10, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
- To restate one of my points in the previous discussion,
it's not like the use of the "State of..." prefix is unprecedented (see State of Mexico, State of Palestine, State of Vietnam, etc.)
. JohnCWiesenthal (talk) 18:14, 29 March 2024 (UTC)- Not "unprecedented", but not common either. – Muboshgu (talk) 18:19, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
- And to restate my rebuttal in the previous discussion, State of Mexico isn't the official name of the state, but the common name for it is a portmanteau of what is literally translated to State of Mexico, so it meets NATDIS, and the State of Vietnam that article refers to no longer exists and so is likely commonly referred to as such to distinguish it from other points in the regions' history --Gimmethegepgun (talk) 10:40, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
- To restate one of my points in the previous discussion,
- Since nobody refers to it as the "State of New York" in conversation or print, I don't see how you think that policy supports this RM. – Muboshgu (talk) 18:10, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose yes unlike Georgia and Washington there isn't a university but it seems like the consensus is that this fails NATURAL. Crouch, Swale (talk) 18:44, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose WP:CONSISTENT with Washington and Georgia. Alanscottwalker (talk) 20:39, 29 March 2024 (UTC)]
- We could move those two as well to State of Georgia, respectively. JohnCWiesenthal (talk) 21:16, 29 March 2024 (UTC)]
- ]
- We could move those two as well to
- Oppose not common. And there wasn't a "ton" of support in previous RMs. Otherwise it would already be the title. Can we stop with these useless rehashes of crap that was very throughly vetted years ago amidst an extensive discussion. They bring absolutely nothing new to the table and we're already addressed. Just because people can't be bothered to read the archives doesn't mean they had an original idea. oknazevad (talk) 22:54, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose ‘Tons of people’ supported this? If there really was tons of support, it’s clearly heavily outweighed by opposition. P sure consensus is set and stone here. It’s okay to be like Juror 8 from Twelve Angry Men and stick out from consensus, but there is no beating consensus. Jason Ingtonn (talk) 03:04, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose - Not remotely the WP:CONSISTENT with Washington and Georgia. So alas, there are several reasons NOT to move. (It should be mentioned I am still in favor of "New York State"). estar8806 (talk) ★ 04:54, 30 March 2024 (UTC)]
- Oppose per WP:CONSISTENT (see Georgia (U.S. state) and Washington (state)). Keivan.fTalk 06:49, 30 March 2024 (UTC)]
- Oppose as per estar8806 (though I am not in favor of New York State) --Gimmethegepgun (talk) 10:43, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose. While I think the idea has merit, it hasn’t been sufficiently thought through. The status quo is the result of years of discussion and is ok, and should not be hastily fiddle with. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 11:12, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.