Talk:Religion in Ukraine

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Religious adherence polls based on CIA factbook or Razumkov Centre are misleading. The biggest problem is the religious split between two largest Ukrainian Orthodox Churches - Ukrainian Orthodox Curch-Moscow Patriarchate (UOC-MP) and Ukrainian Orthodox Church-Kiev Patriarchate (UOC-KP). Majority of Ukrainians are not able to identify themselves with a particular church organization (62.5 % according to 2006 Razumkov Center poll [[http://razumkov.org.ua/ukr/poll.php?poll_id=300 "What religious group do you belong to?". Sociology poll by Razumkov Centre),but majority of them still consider themselves Orthodox Christians (even if they only attend church services few times a year or not at all). Majority of this 62.5 % of Ukrainians were also baptized in UOC-MP churches and attend church services (even if only during Easter mess) in UOC-MP churches. This is simply because great majority of Ukrainian Orthodox churches and clergy belong to UOC-MP (approximately 68 % of all Orthodox Christian communities in the country - see Ukrainian Orthodox Church (Moscow Patriarchate)). The trick that allows UOC-KP to make claim to be the largest church in Ukraine is that the majority of their adherents clearly indicate they belong to UOC-KP (which is generally more nationalist and politicized), while most people who were baptized by UOC-MP and attend UOC-MP church services simply state they are Orthodox Christians. UOC-MP also often portrays itself as the canonical Orthodox Christian church in Ukraine rather than the "Moscow church", downplaying its connections with Moscow Patriarchate (esp. in Central and Western Ukraine) and this also contributes to the confusion polls on church allegiance in Ukraine create. In addition, many of the UOC-MP churches and majority of people who identify with UOC-MP are in the more urbanized South and East Ukraine where church attendance is low compared to the rural Central and Western Ukraine where UOC-KP is the strongest. If the pollsters would have used a different methodology that would explained the differences between the two churches and really press the Ukrainians to choose between the two more than 50 % of Ukrainians would likely identify with UOC-MP while only around 15 % with UOC-KP, yet the CIA Factbook statistics paint the picture which is almost the exact opposite. The religious divide in Ukraine is not exactly the same as a linguistic, political, cultural and historical divide in Ukraine between Russian-speaking south-east(majority of Yanukovych voters in the second round of the recent presidential poll) and Ukrainian speaking north-west (mostly Tymoshenko voters), there is an Orthodox Christian majority in the North and Central Ukraine and a sizable Orthodox minority (including the UOC-MP laity) in the West, yet there is a relation to the overall split which divides Ukraine in two. Roughly 55 to 60 % of more or less religious Ukrainians identify with UOC-MP (or the canonical Orthodox Ukrainian church as many know it) while the rest are members of UOC-KP church, Greko-Catholic church, Roman Catholic church, various Protestant churches and so on.

--Fisenko

Forks are generally a bad idea. We have articles for each religion and the material belongs there.

I could envision the article about the inter-religious interaction but that would have been the article totally different from this one. --Irpen 03:09, 25 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Content related to that of this article is now being discussed at Talk:History_of_Christianity_in_Ukraine. Qe2 (talk) 06:21, 6 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

To conform with consensus reached at Talk:History_of_Christianity_in_Ukraine, I have ordered the listing of Orthodox Churches in Ukraine according to number of adherents, as measured by consistent scientific surveys. Qe2 (talk) 05:31, 9 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

+ Islam_in_Ukraine#Statistics --195.110.6.24 (talk) 12:26, 15 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Is there an official (constitutional) religion of Ukraine? --195.110.6.24 (talk) 12:26, 15 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

[1] says no state religion. Ostap 17:10, 15 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Why is there no section on Hinduism in Ukraine. There is a tiny but under reported Hindu community in Ukraine in the form of ISCKON and Brahmakumaris

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinduism_in_Ukraine — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.110.195.51 (talk) 19:37, 12 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Firstly, the data collected. Whereas the data from the 2006 Razumkov study depicts percentages of all individuals participating, the latest poll only addresses which religion and denomination the participants consider themselves to be adherents of. It does not reflect the number of people who consider themselves to be atheists/irreligious. Just the leap from 62.5% not being religious, or unaware of their religious affiliation to 'no religion' at 6.1% is a bit of a give away. Suddenly, the majority of those who are not religious drops to a tiny percentage? The recent crises have turned millions to religion? Please try to be serious about what is being presented instead of edit warring over how many belong to the Moscow Patriarchate, how many to Kyivan Patriarchate, and how many to the Autocephalous Orthodox Church. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 00:15, 19 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with you. I suspected that the survey only takes into account the breakdown of denominations and not the irreligious population. I notify that the user who first introduced the new data has also already introduced them in every article about Ukraine's territorial subdivisions. See.--95.232.85.102 (talk) 09:48, 21 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the heads up, IP 95.232.85.102! I've reverted those changes. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 23:06, 22 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Iryna Harpy: are the new data that have been recetly added reliable? The source website (which doesn't look reliable at all) doesn't mention the origin of the data, it just reports them. I haven't been able to find any other source (neither in English nor in Ukrainian language) mentioning those data.--82.52.165.19 (talk) 20:29, 17 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

No, these sources are not reliable. I've reverted to the version that stood before

verified references because you don't think they're up to date enough. The references exist, and they are from the Razumkov studies centre which is the most reliable source to date... dated or not. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 21:17, 17 February 2017 (UTC)[reply

]

@Iryna Harpy: I checked every source and was seeking for a working citation. Unfortunately, there was only one, all others were defunct. Let's us see, whether we find better data, maybe the PEW statistics will do it. BR Ulrich --Nillurcheier (talk) 14:00, 18 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I've updated the links and found archived copies for all of them. Compare the 2006 Razumkov study results to the 2015 study. Archived versions of the 2006 study didn't capture the flash bar graphs depicting all respondents (where you'll find the 62% in red for the atheist/irreligious component). The upper bar is a breakdown of religion and denomination for those who responded as being religious. The 2015 study only depicts respondents who identified as being religious (analogous to the upper bar graph in the 2006 study), then a more detailed breakdown of the 'yes, I'm religious' component in the ensuing graphs/charts. From my recollection, in took two or three years for the full study to be presented to include the overall response to religious or not. Substituting the overall response with responses from those who have belief systems is not an option as it would mislead the reader entirely in a country that A) has no state religion; B) is predominantly irreligious. Having gone through past documentation, the overall trend has been for congregations, eparchies, etc. to have decreased, not increased.

I'm now working on updating the content by finding the most current information for links I've replaced with archived captures, but this will take a little time as I'm extremely busy IRL at the moment. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 22:27, 19 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Iryna Harpy, Nillurcheier, Graham87: It't time to take action against user FrankCesco26, who is patently a reincarnation of the banned user Emanuelito martinez, who played and messed up with pie charts and statistics and was banned indefinitely for such reason. In the present article (Religion in Ukraine) he has been removing authoritative sureys of and restoring unauthoritative ones published by doubtful websites such as "Info-Light", which has published a survey claiming that it is from Razumkov, while Razumkov itself has not published anythng new on its own website. As already ascertained, there are plenty of Ukrainian websites that present unbelievably different statistics on religiosity in Ukraine, while reliable survey data is a minority among them. Moreover, surveys of many thousands of people should be given preference over surveys of a few hundreds one or estimates which are not based on polling methods.--82.52.165.83 (talk) 18:55, 28 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I agree, the infolight website does not appear to be a reliable source. In this SPI case the CU found Emanuelito martinez to be technically unrelated to FrankCesco26, and apart from that the behavioural evidence was not strong enough. JimRenge (talk) 19:42, 28 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I support your position. Let us agree on one (PEW?) or max two reliable sources and add in the text that religious statistics in Ukraine are very vage and diverging. regarding user FrankCesco26 I can't make a statement. --Nillurcheier (talk) 07:24, 29 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I personally think that Pew Research has very low reliability because it is not a survey, it is outdated and many of its data were already outdated when they were published in 2012. Rather, the most reliable surveys to date are the large-sample 2006 Razumkov survey and the recently published POSRU 2016. The data of the latter is the most realistic, since it matches the religious populations' percentages that have been found in neighbouring Slavic countries (see Belarus 2011 census and Russia 2012 Arena survey; compare 52% Orth. found by POSRU 2016 with 48% found by Belarus 2011 census and 41% found by Russia Arena survey [slightly higher, around 50%, in Russian regions adjacent to Ukraine]).--79.20.168.147 (talk) 17:42, 29 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I do agree with

WP:RS, so we can max two reliable sources and add in the text that religious statistics in Ukraine.--Jobas (talk) 17:56, 29 March 2017 (UTC)[reply

]

79.20.168.147 (dynamic IP), I have left you a message on your talk page. JimRenge (talk) 19:42, 29 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, but I have to agree with the dynamic IP. PEW's polls are RS to a limited extent. Given that we have a better source, PEW is

WP:UNDUE in context. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 00:32, 31 March 2017 (UTC)[reply

]

I also agree with the dynamic IP: the POSRU 2016 is more recent and their method is more transparent than PEW. I prefer to use one pie chart. JimRenge (talk) 08:40, 31 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Definitely only one pie chart. Additional pie charts visually impart a sense of being of equal weight. As regards the POSRU findings, I consider them to be

WP:UNDUE category. The brunt of the study is attitudes to the war in Donbass, corruption in governance, etc. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 19:37, 2 April 2017 (UTC)[reply

]

This has become a fiasco. We now have the first paragraph of the lead referencing the latest stats which, it has been agreed, are incomplete at best. In stark contrast we have the second paragraph dealing with the comprehensive 2006 survey using

WP:RS discussing the dynamics of this social upheaval? No? Nothing? ... Then there's only one logical explanation: there has not been a major shift, meaning that the 2016 survey is explicitly dealing with those who identified with a religion/denomination of a religion, and the statistics represent that group of respondents, and that group only. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 20:53, 4 April 2017 (UTC)[reply

]

Kiev International Institute of Sociology (http://kiis.com.ua/). They are all centers in my opinion very reliable. The research site Info-Light (http://infolight.org.ua/about) has just released figures. The sample of respondents is very large, has 25,000 respondents uniformly distributed throughout Ukraine. I would propose to restore the graph and create one for each oblast. I think the four research centers listed above are very reliable, at least more than a survey of a few thousand people concentrated in the Dnipropetrovsk oblast. I hope you have understood why I have restored several times the graph and I hope you are on my side. Sorry for English but I used a translator. --FrankCesco26 (talk) 14:01, 7 April 2017 (UTC)[reply

]

First of all, I make it clear that I am the same user who intervened as an anonymous IP in the last weeks. The 2015 data reported by the "Info-Light" website introduced by FrankCesco26 are flawed, possibly a misinterpretation of the data provided by original sources. In order to demonstrate this, I have made a research in Ukrainian language, and I have found an original publication of Razumkov Center which contains all their surveys from 2000 to 2016 (РЕЛІГІЯ, ЦЕРКВА, СУСПІЛЬСТВО І ДЕРЖАВА: ДВА РОКИ ПІСЛЯ МАЙДАНУ Religion, Church, Society and State: Two Years after Maidan, 2016 report). Ultimately, it confirms the suspects advanced by Iryna Harpy: breakdowns of religious populations which show a very large proportion for each one of them are calculated on the part of the entire population declaring to be "believers", not taking into account the large population of "non believers".

For instance, from the 2016 data contained in the report linked hereinabove we know that (pp. 27-29):

• 70% of the population are believers, while 30% are not believers.
• Of the believing population: 65.4% are Orthodox, 7.1% are simply Christians, 6.5% are Greek Catholics, 1% are Roman Catholics, 1.9% are Protestants, 1.1% are Muslims, 0.2% are Jews and 0.2% are Hindus, and 16.5% are believers but not specifying any religious affiliation.

The report then provides breakdowns for all regions of Ukraine. Thus, what we have to do at this point is to calculate the proportion of religious believers on the entire population. The result is what follows:

• 46% Orthodox;
• 4.9% simply Christian;
• 4.5% Greek Catholic;
• 1.3% Protestant;
• 0.7% Roman Catholic;
• 0.8% Muslim;
• 0.1% Jewish;
• 0.1% Hindu;
• 11.6% other;
• 30% not religious, atheist, agnostic.

Of the Orthodox, as of 2016 (p. 31): 38.1% belong to the Kievan Patriarchate, 23% to the Moscovian Patriarchate, 2.7% are Autocephalous Orthodox, 32.3% are simply Orthodox and 3.1% do not know which patriarchate they belong to. Calculating this proportions on the 46% who are Orthodox out of the total population, the proportion of affilates to the different patriarchates out of the total population are the following ones:

• 17.5% Kievan Patriarchate;
• 10.5% Moscovian Patriarchate;
• 1.2% Autocephalous Ukrainian Orthodox Church;
• 16.2% simply Orthodox (14.8% who responded "simply Orthodox" + 1.4% who "don't know which patriarchate they belong to").

--

Moreover, another important addition to the article would be the list of registered religious organizations. The RISU (Religion Information Service of Ukraine) provides a yearly updated list. Here is the list for 2016.--

I do support that this new data and information that Wddan provide should be included, in both leade and pie charts, the source and the data sound as the best and most reliable source.--Jobas (talk) 13:24, 15 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you,

my own reservations as to accuracy. Although The World Factbook's evaluation of religion in Ukraine (estimated in 2013) doesn't cite any sources, and the conclusions drawn there err on the side of caution, I certainly understand the AUCCRO estimates to be far closer and more reliable than small sample group polls focussing on multiple issues about attitudes to the government, the war in Donbass, and generalised concerns. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 20:07, 15 April 2017 (UTC)[reply

]

Thank you both. I am going to update the lede, the pie chart, and the demographics section, introducing tables with the breakdown of religions by region and of the affiliations of the Orthodox population. I will remove all the old surveys, including the Razumkov 2006; if you think it should stay, please add it back.--

talk) 09:52, 16 April 2017 (UTC)[reply

]

What about this poll ( http://old.razumkov.org.ua/ukr/poll.php?poll_id=908 ) by Razumkov Centre (and not infolight.ua) that shows more or less the same data in infolight.ua? I bet that you'll find a lot problems with it, isn't it? I'll add the disputed tag. The same research centre can't give completely different data in less than 2 years. There is very probably a problem in the interpretation of the data. For example, the large share of "Other religions" that seems very unusual. I will examine in detail the source that you put. --FrankCesco26 (talk) 12:04, 27 April 2017

I found the trick: you labelled people who don't identify in religions as "Other religions" and you added an other label for people who are "unbeliver", "convinced atheist", "Those who hesitate between faith and unbelief" and "Me would care" as "Not religious, agnostics and atheists". I saw the table at page 29. I will fix all of the data (About the source I have written before, is present in the table under "2013p".)

EDIT: I didn't read before where you said that you made your own calculations. Anyway, these calculations are wrong becouse there are also Cultural Christians, people who identify with a religion even if they do not believe in God, but this is not the case since the source you provided labels only 9% not believers, divided beetween "unbeliever" (6.3%) and "convinced atheist"(2.7%). --FrankCesco26 (talk) 12:42, 27 April 2017

Have you read the discussions above? Razumkov Center divides between "believers" and "unbelievers" and then provides a breakdown of various types of "unbelievers" and "believers", including people who do not identify in the listed religions. You are misinterpreting the source. Obviously, I am not saying you're deliberately manipulating it.

Further clarification:

• PAGE 27: contains the total % of believers (Віруючим) in Ukraine (2016: 70.4%) and then the various types of non believers (Тим, хто вагається між вірою і невір’ям—undecided (i.e. agnostics), Невіруючим—unbelievers, Переконаним атеїстом—atheists, Мені це байдуже—"do not care" (i.e. agnostics), Важко відповісти—unanswered). On the same page there is the same breakdown for each of the five regions.
• PAGE 29: contains for all Ukraine and for each region the breakdown of "believers", including all the major religious denominations and then Інше—"other" and Не відношу себе до жодного з релігійних віросповідань—"do not consider themselves part of these religions" (but they still believe in something else). This table does not contain the 30% who are non-believers.
• There are no so-called "cultural Christians" in the survey. The table of the religious denominations contains Просто християнин—"simply Christian", which I have correctly reported in the tables of the article.

@

talk) 17:35, 27 April 2017 (UTC)[reply

]

Find where it says that percentages are only of the beliving population and write here. You can't write data that there isn't on source. Or is this data "invented" as you said some times ago? It isn't written that percentages includes only believing population. Neither in the pdf, neither here http://old.razumkov.org.ua/ukr/poll.php?poll_id=908 So don't revert until you write where Razumkov affirms that percentages are only for the believing population. Also, do not involve other people, it is a discussion me to you.--FrankCesco26 (talk) 18:25, 27 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@FrankCesco26: You're misinterpreting the source by cutting out non-believers. I really hope for you that this is not intentional, since Iryna reads Ukrainian even better that I do and she will verify the content of the source (and anyone can participate to Wikipedia discussions, this is not a "me to you" private project, and this claim of yours makes you a very problematic user). I will not risk another block by edit-warring with you, so revert your edits by yourself.

Further clarification: PAGE 27: Тим, хто вагається між вірою і невір’ям—undecided (i.e. agnostics) (10.1%), Невіруючим—unbelievers (6.3%), Переконаним атеїстом—atheists (2.7%), Мені це байдуже—"do not care" (i.e. agnostics) (7.2%), Важко відповісти—unanswered (3.9%). = 30.2%.--

talk) 18:32, 27 April 2017 (UTC)[reply

]

You really don't like the

WP:NPA, isn't it? Comment on contribution, not on the contributor. You stated that Razumkov gives the percentages as only believing population, so *you* have to provide the source.--FrankCesco26 (talk) 18:36, 27 April 2017 (UTC)[reply

]

There are no personal attacks in my messages. Indeed, I comment on contribution: you are manipulating data by excluding non-believers. You, instead, are seriously attacking and provoking me, and someone will take action.--

talk) 18:43, 27 April 2017 (UTC)[reply

]

You said that I am a very problematic user. You commented on contributor, not on contribution. Also, I didn't do anything else than reporting data is given in the source provided by you. --FrankCesco26 (talk) 18:44, 27 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

You said: "do not involve other people, it is a discussion me to you". This is against basic Wikipedia rules, and could even be interpreted as a menace.--

talk) 18:48, 27 April 2017 (UTC)[reply

]

I explained it later. You have to provide the source of what you wrote, not other people. Do not forget to say to me where does Razumkov Centre says that non believers aren't included in the oercentages. I don't want to attack you, I want only explanations--FrankCesco26 (talk) 18:51, 27 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The surveys table is entitled РІВЕНЬ І ХАРАКТЕР РЕЛІГІЙНОСТІ УКРАЇНСЬКОГО СУСПІЛЬСТВА—"Level and nature of religiosity in Ukrainian society". The first table (p. 27) divides between believers (2016: 70%) and non-believers (30%). Then the second table (p. 29) provides the breakdown of believers under the question До якої релігії Ви себе відносите?—"Which religion do you believe in?". The second table has not any field for non-believers, and the title itself implies that that the question was addressed to believers exclusively. All major religions, plus Не відношу себе до жодного з релігійних віросповідань—"do not consider myself of any of these religions" (which you have mistakenly translated as "non religious") sums up to a perfect 100%. It is even logically obvious that this excludes unbelievers, unless Ukrainian society is 100% religious as you imply.--

talk) 19:28, 27 April 2017 (UTC)[reply

]

In the source, atheists and agnostics are labelled as "Do not consider myself to be any of these creeds' religions, as explained by Toddy1.--FrankCesco26 (talk) 20:05, 27 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I do not see the justification for multiplying the percentages in the table on page 29 by the percentage of believers on page 27. Where does it say in the text of the report that the table on page 29 is of a subset of respondents who answered that they were believers? There is after all no contradiction between being (for example) orthodox and being either uncertain of one's belief or finding it difficult to answer whether one believes or not.

Most of the tables have the data listed as percentage of respondents (% опитаних). The table in the top part of page 31 has a footnote, which says "Percentages do not equal 100 because the diagram does not show the percentage of those who do not consider themselves Orthodox." (Сума відсотків не дорівнює 100, оскільки на діаграмі не наведено відсоток тих, хто не відносить себе до православних.)

Page 22 of the report has a paragraph that relates to the table on page 29:

Конфесійне самовизначення. Як і раніше, більшість (65%) громадян відносять себе до православ’я (від 77% жителів Центру до 51% – Донбасу). На Заході країни значне число жителів (30%) визнали себе греко-католиками. На Півдні, Сході та на Донбасі привертають увагу значні частки громадян, які не відносять себе до жодного з віро- сповідань (22%, 25% і 28%, відповідно) (таблиці “До якої релігії Ви себе відносите?”).

Denominational identity. As before, the majority (65%) of citizens identify themselves as Orthodox (from 77% residents of Central Ukraine to 51% for the Donbass). In the west a significant number of people (30%) consider themselves to be Greek Catholics. In the South, the East and the Donbass attracted the attention of a significant proportion of citizens who do not belong to any of the different confessions (22%, 25% and 28%, respectively) (Table "Which religion do you yourself?").

Notice that it does not say % of believers. -- Toddy1 (talk) 19:40, 27 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Page 27 contains the following table:

Page 29 contains the following table:

Thank you for the translation. To me, this confirms what I wrote above, especially the in-text definition Конфесійне самовизначення—"denominational identity" (note that de-nomination implies a breakdown of a larger group) and the fact that in the second table there is no field for atheists or agnostics.--

talk) 19:57, 27 April 2017 (UTC)[reply

]

Thanks Toddy1 for the explanations. As you can see Wddan, atheists and agnostics are labelled as "Do not consider myself to be any of these creeds' religions"--FrankCesco26 (talk) 20:05, 27 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

This is your interpretation of the data. They are clearly a breakdown of the "denominations" ("religious creed") of believers.--

talk) 20:08, 27 April 2017 (UTC)[reply

]

No, this is the source's interpretation of the data, since it clearly explain that data is given as % of respondents, it would have been written as "% of the believing population" to be as you say. Also Toddy1 (that he's a native ukrainian speaker, member since 10 years) thinks like me, he said Notice that it does not say % of believers..--FrankCesco26 (talk) 20:20, 27 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

It is the breakdown of "respondents" ("% of respondents"). It is obvious that the table at p. 29 and that at p. 31 are surveys of smaller samples of the population, of "believers" and of "Orthodox", respectively. Note that the table at p. 31 is entitled "До якої саме православної Церкви Ви себе відносите?—Which Orthodox church do you believe in?". It is obvious that this survey was conducted on those who already answered "Orthodox" to previous surveys, in fact the same page provides the breakdown of the Orthodox denominations on the believing population (sums up to 65%) and then the breakdown of the Orthodox denominations on the total Orthodox population (sums up to 100%).--

talk) 20:28, 27 April 2017 (UTC)[reply

]

There is a smaller sample only for Orthodox (limited to the Orthodox people), for religion the sample is the same, as you can see from the tables made by Toddy1 for comparision. This doesn't need more explanations. It is simple to understand.--FrankCesco26 (talk) 20:33, 27 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

No, it still needs to be clarified. It is a three-phase survey: 1st "Are you believer or unbeliever?", 2nd "Which religion do you believe in?", 3rd "Which Orthodox church do you believe in?". It is logically obvious that the questions are addressed to an ever-smaller section of the population. The first distinguished believers and non-believers, the second distinguished religious believers denomination, and the third distinguished Orthodox believers denominations.--

talk) 20:35, 27 April 2017 (UTC)[reply

]

The report specifies whether tables are:

• "% of respondents" (% опитаних)
• "% of those who consider themselves Orthodox" (% тих, хто вважає себе православним)

If a table says the data is % of respondents, then it is of total respondents, not a subset.-- Toddy1 (talk) 20:41, 27 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry,Wddan, but no. it is clear that the first is to see the beliefs and then religion. After, show the distribution of the Orthodox in the patriarchates. There is no need to clarify again, maybe you don't want to understand, but it is so. it is also written "% of respondents" no "% of "religious population", as was written in the old survey of 2006.--FrankCesco26 (talk) 20:42, 27 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

As User:Toddy1 stated here the source doesn't mention the percentage of believers, and the table in Page 29 contains the following question: "Which religion are you yourself?", so 65.4% did identify themselves as Eastern Orthodox Christians; it sounds that Wddan is conflating the two questions "If you believe in God" and the question "What religion you identify with?". To make it clear, I will give an example: the Eurobarometer Poll 2010 found that, on average, 51% of the citizens of EU member states say that they "believe there is a God", 26% "believe there is some sort of spirit or life force" while 20% "don't believe there is any sort of spirit, God or life force". yet in 2012 Eurobarometer found that Christianity is the largest religion in the European Union counting 72% of EU citizens identifying themselves with it. So there is a difference between the two questions; many atheists identify themselves with a religion for several reasons. What is important here is what the source stated, Until now, nowhere does the source mention the percentage of believers or give the numbers that have been introuduced by you before.--Jobas (talk) 20:53, 27 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@FrankCesco26: if the article is going to cite the report, it needs to specify page numbers - citing different pages for different facts. It is a 44 page document, that is too long to just point people at the document.-- Toddy1 (talk) 21:30, 27 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Wddan look at the page 31 under the question "% Of those who consider themselves Orthodox?" here it is about of the % Of those who consider themselves Orthodox, where 38.1% belong to the Kievan Patriarchate, 23% to the Moscovian Patriarchate, 2.7% are Autocephalous Orthodox, 32.3% are simply Orthodox and 3.1% do not know which patriarchate they belong to. Calculating this proportions on the 65.4% who are Orthodox out of the total population, according to the study the proportion of affilates to the different patriarchates out of the total population are the following ones (see the under question: "Which is the Orthodox Church you yourself? it's cited "% опитаних or  % of respondents" so here it's deal with the total population):

• 25.0% Kievan Patriarchate;
• 15.0% Moscovian Patriarchate;
• 1.8% Autocephalous Ukrainian Orthodox Church;
• 23.2% simply Orthodox (21.2% who responded "simply Orthodox" + 2.0% who "don't know which patriarchate they belong to"). --Jobas (talk) 23:30, 27 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

You all persist in excluding the population of non-believers, atheists and agnostics (10.1% + 6.3% + 2.7% + 7.2% + 3.9% = 30.2%), all listed in the first table hereabove. I continue to think that the % of religions has to be projected on the 70% of believers. And, by the way, I believe that FrankCesco26 has a seriously provocative behavior and is mainly driven by a particular POV in his editing here in WP. However, since there is clear majority consensus, I will refrain from editing the page further unless a clearer interpretation of the survey will be given, possibly by other users, either by providing the translation of other parts or other reports by the Razumkov Center.--

talk) 00:37, 28 April 2017 (UTC)[reply

]

I am sorry but there is no 30% non believing people, since only 9% is a declared non believer, other 7.2% do not care, 10,1% are Those who hesitate between belief and disbelief and 1.6% think is difficult to answer. Also, I think that you should refrain from judging people, you can think everything about me, but you can't write it for the

WP:NPA, don't attack me..--User:FrankCesco26 (talk

) 5:33, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

Ultimately, reconsidering the whole issue, it is not clear who "respondents" refers to in the 2016 survey. It is not clear whether it refers to the entire population or to the believers only. Moreover, considering the 2006 report, Razumkov Center's methodology consists in the projection of the "religious" population on the "believers" population. Therefore, if the new data are to be kept in the present article, it is necessary to use the original terminology of the survey. The same 2016 report in other articles should be corrected accordingly.--

talk) 12:26, 28 April 2017 (UTC)[reply

]

Also consider that 3.9% did not answer clearly to the first survey. This further corroborates my idea that "respondents" refers to the "believers" in the first survey.--

talk) 12:41, 28 April 2017 (UTC)[reply

]

Also consider that the 2016 survey is conducted on a sample of 2.018 people (page 22), while the 2006 survey on a sample of 11.216. At first I did not notice this big discrepancy in the collected data. This makes the 2006 survey far more reliable than the 2016 one. The 2006 survey should be kept in the article as the most reliable to date, as it was before the recent revisions.--

talk) 13:24, 28 April 2017 (UTC)[reply

]

Under the question " Whether you attend church or not, who do you think you are?" it's state "% опитаних  % of respondents", If the study in the next question "Which religion are you yourself? (changes over time)" mean to ask only "believers" it would said "% тих, хто належить до церков, конфесій", yet is said "% опитаних  % of respondents".--Jobas (talk) 13:44, 28 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

A proverb can not be translated, I'll write it in my native language to describe the situation:

Quando la volpe non riesce ad arrivare all'uva, dice che è acerba. (Esopo)User:FrankCesco26 (talk) 15:34, 28 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Intelligence is not what you Italians call furbizia. Intelligence is what is needed in understanding, analyzing and interpreting different sets of data, and is what is needed in our occasion. Returning to the surveys: the 2006 survey is not comparable to the 2000-2016 cluster of surveys reported in the 2016 document. They were conducted using different methodologies. Here you find the 2013 survey of those reported in the 2016 document (p. 29), but compiled in the same technical style of the 2006 survey. Survey fields (labels) are the same, with the only difference that the 2006 survey immediately provides the breakdown of Orthodox, the projection on the total population (left column) and the breakdown of believers only (right column); the 2013 survey, apart from being based on a small sample like the 2016 one (2000 ppl.), does not provide such breakdowns.--

talk) 16:46, 28 April 2017 (UTC)[reply

]

If the survey provides the breakdown of believers, it will said (%Віруючим), yet the question is very clear "До якої релігії Ви себе відносите? Which religion are you yourself? (changes over time)" - (% опитаних  % of respondents), notice that it does not say % of believers. The same is in page 27 which contains this following question "Незалежно від того, відвідуєте Ви церкву чи ні, ким Ви себе вважаєте? Whether you attend church or not, who do you think you are?" - (% опитаних  % of respondents). In page 31 it provides the breakdown of Orthodox (% тих, хто вважає себе православним); so the question "Which religion are you yourself? (changes over time)" is only for who answered as believers; the question will be (% тих, хто вважає себе Віруючим), Until now, nowhere does the source mention the "percentage of believers" or give the numbers that have been introuduced by you before which is an original research.--Jobas (talk) 16:52, 28 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I will repeat myself again: it is not clear whom "respondents" refers to.--

talk) 17:54, 28 April 2017 (UTC)[reply

]

Here is another table of data from the 2016 survey. This one cross-tabulates religion with belief. The first column of percentages is from page 27 of the previous report (the table that deals with belief). The other columns are from another document that is full of survey results from the 2016 survey.-- Toddy1 (talk) 18:28, 28 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Report list

• 2014 report similar to the 2016 report (pdf)
• 2014 report similar to the 2016 report (pdf)

• Newsletter 42, December 2016 uses November 2016 survey results.

Thank you very much! The last table shows finally the affiliation of the "non believers" in various religions, so Wddan you finally have the demonstration of what you think is wrong. Also, Toddy1 I think we can update March 2016 data with November 2016 data. — Preceding unsigned comment added by FrankCesco26 (talk • contribs) 05:50, 29 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

talk) 11:58, 29 April 2017 (UTC)[reply

]

Kiev International Institute of Sociology (http://kiis.com.ua/ ).--FrankCesco26 (talk) 13:14, 29 April 2017 (UTC)[reply

]

I suggest that you build some draft tables here in the talk page, putting the column and row headers in the original language and in translation so that it is easy to compare with the sources.-- Toddy1 (talk) 15:59, 29 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I think that the Feb 2015 survey should not be added to the same table of the Razumkov surveys since it is a different survey, using different methodologies. Moreover, it was rejected before since the website "Info-Light" is the only one that has published it. Besides, I suggest a return to POSRU 2016 in the lede, as it was for a period before the recent edits, it contains two surveys of the Rating Group Ukraine and the International Republican Institute, the first survey representing all Ukraine and conducted on a sample of 2,400, while the second one representing only Dnipropetrovsk Oblast and conducted on a sample of 1185 people. The survey, being indeprendent and not sponsored by churches as it is the case for the Razumkov 2000-2016 small-sample survey cluster, shows a more reasonable % of Orthodox people and unaffiliated believers.--

talk) 12:38, 30 April 2017 (UTC)[reply

]

In the March 2016 survey (page 31), for example, Orthodox were subdivided as follows

• Moscow Patriarchate 15.0% (23% of Orthodox)
• Kiev Patriarchate 25.0% (38.1% of Orthodox)
• Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church 1.8% (2.7% of Orthodox)
• Just Orthodox 21.2% (32.3% of Orthodox)
• Do not know 2.0% (3.1% of Orthodox)

In the Canadian May-June 2016 survey

• Moscow Patriarchate 19%
• Kiev Patriarchate 33%
• Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church was included under "other".
• "Just Orthodox" was presumably included under either "I believe in God, but do not belong to any religion" or "Difficult to answer"
• "Orthodox, do not know which branch" was presumably included in those too.

It is not obvious that the Canadian survey shows a different proportion of Orthodox than the other surveys.-- Toddy1 (talk) 16:22, 30 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I am against the adding of POSRU survey, since it didn't reach consensus. Even Iryna Harpy said it was problematic. The article is much better now. I'm really sorry for you, User:Wddan,but you also have to accept what's not "reasonable" for you. Toddy1 I haven't much time to make the table, could you check that data I posted for me? Thank you very much!-- FrankCesco26 (talk) 20:51, 30 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The "Info-Light" survey did not reach consensus, too. I am in favor of adding all the surveys to the table (including the Razumkov 2006 and the 2004, 2007 and 2008 that I linked in my talk page) and giving only a general picture in the article's introduction, without giving undue weight to any one of the specific surveys (for the reasons explained above). Then, the pie chart should be removed. The breakdown of the various types of Orthodoxy is also very relevant; it should be mentioned in the lede and explained through other tables.--

talk) 21:25, 30 April 2017 (UTC)[reply

]

No, Razumkov is perfect, I wanted to add a table for Info-Light only for religion at oblast level, since it is the only one that made that data. FrankCesco26 (talk) 5:55, 1st May 2017 (UTC)

You are not alone in deciding how the article should appear. "No, Razumkov is perfect" is not a rational motivation for the exclusion of other surveys. The tables above should be added in their entirety to the article, and the introduction should give a general overview of the situation.

talk) 10:45, 1 May 2017 (UTC)[reply

]

Iryna Harpy is not involved in this article anymore. Razumkov is the most reliable source. You are the only one that want to change Razumkov. If you think that the sample is small, we can change data with InfoLight that has a sample of 25.000. But this article doesn't need any further change.FrankCesco26 (talk) 18:07, 1 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The Razumkov source is a good and reliable source, the Razumkov (2006 2004, 2007 and 2008) is good but it's outdated, we have here a reliable source from 2016, which is better.--Jobas (talk) 08:32, 2 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Toddy1, Jobas I added the table for oblasts. Numbers are coerent with Razumkov researches. More Protestants in the west and Atheist in the east. EDIT: I tried to calculate the number of Greek Catholics in Western Ukraine using InfoLight data and I found that numbers are coerent with the Razumkov 2016's ones (33.47% vs 29.9%). I think that religion by oblast data can be added to each oblast's page (more or less like Russia's ones).--FrankCesco26 (talk) 12:47, 2 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

You do not have any authority for deciding who is an who is not involved in this article. Wikipedia articles never reach a definitive state, and further modifications will come in the future as other reports will be published (even, possibly, by agencies other than Razumkov).--

talk) 13:57, 2 May 2017 (UTC)[reply

]

@FrankCesco26: @Jobas:, @Wddan: The survey results contain a category "Просто християнин" for christians who do not identify with any particular denomination. "Християнин" means "christian". "Просто" means "just", "merely", "simply". Do you have any preference for how we express this in the labels in tables and graphs?-- Toddy1 (talk) 10:04, 5 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I would prefer "Unaffiliated Christian", "Simply Christian" I think is too generic.User:FrankCesco26 (talk) 17:04, 5 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Just Christian, sound good to me.--Jobas (talk) 18:47, 5 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, Just Christian is better, I agree with @Jobas: :) --User:FrankCesco26 (talk) 19:40, 5 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Toddy1: @FrankCesco26: @Wddan:, I had a look on the page Religion in Russia, they use Unaffiliated Christian, do you think it's better than Just Christian?.--Jobas (talk) 13:06, 6 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Ah ok, no problem, it is the same, maybe it's better using the same words of Religion in Russia--FrankCesco26 (talk) 13:18, 6 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Romir data

Found another source of surveys: Romir Ukraine, which is the exclusive representative of Gallup International in Ukraine.

• 2016 end of year survey
• The document on the site for the 2015 end of year survey did not have a table for religion.
• 2014 end of year survey
• 2013 end of year survey

Note that the survey size is smaller than the Razumkov surveys, and unlike Razumkov only covers urban areas-- Toddy1 (talk) 18:30, 10 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Interesting results. They should be added to the article in a separate table.--

talk) 10:17, 13 May 2017 (UTC)[reply

]

• oppose this pie is based on the table (p.29); which deal with Orthodox as one group, then on another page, the study review the orthodox's religious affiliations, no pie with breakdown of Orthodoxy, the article and the introduction already deal with that.--Jobas (talk) 15:33, 2 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The above table conflates the two nondenominational answers on page 31 of the source: Просто православний 21.2% and Не знаю 2.0%. Is "23.7" in the pie-chart is a typographical error?-- Toddy1 (talk) 15:58, 2 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, the table conflates "simply Orthodoxy" and "do not know", and then to reach the 65.4% of total Orthodox I had to add a further 0.5% (evidently, the % are approximate).--

talk) 16:09, 2 May 2017 (UTC)[reply

]

There are standard rules for rounding. To see whether the missing percentage was due to rounding errors, I looked at the data on the breakdown of Orthodox in the May 2016 report (pages 29 and 31) from 2000 to 2016. Not only was there always a missing percentage, but it was always the same way; i.e. the total of the percentages of different types of orthodox was always less than the total orthodox. If the missing percentage had been due to rounding errors, then you would have expected the missing percentage to be sometimes positive and sometimes negative. It is likely that some or all of the missing percentage are due to missing or uncategorised answers.-- Toddy1 (talk) 19:32, 2 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

There is an interesting trend there - over time a greater percentage of the orthodox are identifying with one or the other of the two patriarchates.-- Toddy1 (talk) 19:48, 2 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I have added the table above to the article. Besides, have we decided what to do with the pie chart? Is it better for it to show the breakdown of Orthodox people or not?--

talk) 10:24, 13 May 2017 (UTC)[reply

]

(pie chart) https://pastebin.com/m0D51Qck

The dominant religion in [name] Oblast is

• Non-denominational - [number]%
• Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the Moscow Patriarchate - [number]%
• Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the Kyivan Patriarchate
  - [number]%
• Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church - [number]%
• Unknown - [number]%

Toddy1, Jobas, Wddan can you help me with this work? Thank you.FrankCesco26 (talk) 12:32, 4 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Either tables or bullet points are a better way of presenting lists of numbers than putting them in a paragraph. This is particularly true when they include categories such as "no answer" or "difficult to answer".-- Toddy1 (talk) 13:37, 4 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Please write "Kiev Patriarchate" not "Kyivan Patriarchate" when translating "Київського Патріархату". "Kyivan" is just a transliteration, whereas "Kiev" is a translation.-- Toddy1 (talk) 13:37, 4 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

With respect of the subdivision of Orthodox, people were asked which denomination they were. I tried asking someone that question yesterday; it took quite a lot of explaining to get a useful answer. Most people use the church that they like and is convenient to go to, and do not worry about who is patriarch. It is notable though, that across Ukraine, the proportion of people who self-identify with either the Moscow or the Kiev Patriarchates has increased over the past 17 years. Please avoid the term "non-denominational", because there are protestant churches in the USA who call themselves that (see Nondenominational Christianity).-- Toddy1 (talk) 13:37, 4 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, thank you for the explanations, so is it ok for you to add the paragraph (obviously, with all the fixes)?--FrankCesco26 (talk) 14:22, 4 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I suggest you pick two or three oblasts as prototypes, and try it and see. It is often easier to get either agreement, or proposals for other improvements by showing people examples of the idea implemented. An advantage of tables is that when people find newer (or older) data for the oblast they can add to the table, instead of deleting the information you added.-- Toddy1 (talk) 15:27, 4 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Toddy1 I found an other source for religion in oblast but it is very weird... The source cites a larger number of protestants in all of Ukraine and also a majority of Crimea muslim, is this possible? I leave here the link http://www.irs.in.ua/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=581%3A1&catid=51%3Astats&Itemid=79&lang=uk Maps with this data can be found in the Ukrainian article for Religions in Ukraine.--FrankCesco26 (talk) 14:53, 7 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@FrankCesco26: The link contains statistics on numbers of registered religious organisations. Here is a similar one that is in English, and has explanatory text.
Institute for Religious Freedom in Ukraine: Religious map of Crimea – infographics 08 April 2014 Note that the percentages are not of people. They are percentages of registered religious communities. It would be valuable to put this information in to the articles on each oblast.

I do not know whether religion in the occupied zones is within the scope of this article. If it is, then this link is relevant.-- Toddy1 (talk) 18:36, 7 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, thank you for the explanation! When can we add the religious information for oblasts? Also, have you religious data for Sevastopol?--FrankCesco26 ((talk)) 18:42, 7 mag 2017 (UTC)

I am unclear what you are asking.

It is up to you when you add religious information to the articles on oblasts. I merely suggested that you do some, and then ask people what they think. That would save you a lot of work, if someone saw what you had done and made a useful suggestion about wording, formatting, or additional sources.

I do not have any religious data for Sevastopol. If you want information on religious organisations, then it is listed under м. Севастополь in the tables in that Word document you asked about. If you want information on percentages of people, the Razumkov Centre collected data on the Crimea and Sevastopol in their surveys up to 2013 - but the only published data I have seen is by region - and they included the Crimea and Sevastopol in the Southern Region - see the 2013 data.-- Toddy1 (talk) 19:10, 7 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Survey results for Protestants

The Razumkov Centre has a footnote in one of its reports on what is included under "Protestants" in their surveys:

Protestant, including evangelical churches (ie: Seventh Day Adventists, Jehovah's Witnesses, Lutheran, Evangelical Christians and Evangelical Baptists, Christians of Evangelical Pentecostal and other community, Full Gospel Church and other charismatic communities, Mormons)

протестантських, у т.ч. євангелічних церков (а саме: адвентисти сьомого дня, Свідки Єгови, лютерани, євангельські християни та євангельські християни-баптисти, християни віри євангельської та інші п’ятидесятницькі спільноти, Церква Повного Євангелія та інші харизматичні спільноти, мормони)

"РелігійНість УкраїНців: рівень, характер, ставлення до окремих аспектів церковно-релігійної ситуації і державно-конфесійних відносин (результати загальнонаціонального соціологічного дослідження)" [Ukrainian Religiosity: level, character, attitude to certain aspects of ecclesiastical-religious situations and public-church relations (results of a nationwide poll)] (PDF), Національна Безпека і Оборона (National Defence and Security) (1 (138) ed.), Razumkov Centre, p. 18, 2013

-- Toddy1 (talk) 16:34, 4 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Greek Catholic AKA Ukrainian Greek catholic is a type of roman Catholic. The use of Roman Catholic seems to refer to the Latin Church in this context. I do not know why my editing of this confusing box keeps getting reverted, Whoever is doing so can very easily read up on the subject matter themselves. This is infact wikipedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Magjozs (talk • contribs) 03:51, 7 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@FrankCesco26, Iryna Harpy, JimRenge, Jobas, Magjozs, Nillurcheier, and Graham87: (and whoever else including the IP) Please figure out what the consensus is so the edit war can stop. Thanks. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 15:38, 11 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Apologies,

very misleading. I've only just been jolted into addressing the fact that some form of action is needed by dumbot's removal of the temporary pp. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 21:04, 14 April 2017 (UTC)[reply

]

The Joshua Project is a foreign (American) organisation with an agenda to promote. It is a ministry of Frontier Ventures, which claims to be an apostolic community committed to a common life and vision.[2]

I suspect that surveys by the Razumkov Centre are more reliable. It is regarded as a top research institute. It is Ukrainian, and its clients are Ukrainian.-- Toddy1 (talk) 21:21, 16 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Патріарший собор воскресіння христового, Київ.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 18:39, 3 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Any reason why the religion of Islam in Ukraine was omitted from the pie chart? 176.55.111.251 (talk) 17:42, 7 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

It seems like some editors do not want to see Islam in Ukraine based on petty excuses. I wish they would use the same conditions (

WP:SYNTHESIS) on other subjects too. Korybiko (talk) 02:54, 31 July 2022 (UTC)[reply

]

I added Islam in accordance with info from Demographics of Ukraine. Perhaps the whitewashing editors can find more up to date and specific numbers as there is plenty of data out there. Korybiko (talk) 03:15, 31 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]