Talk:Russian disinformation

I think the content of these articles would be better served merged together. Propaganda and disinformation are tightly connected (I would hate to use the coin metaphor). 1, 2. Since they play off of each other, this dimension would also be better connected in one article. Basically, the concepts overlap considerably, and the contents would be best served in one, well-sourced and solid article. I would propose a joint article dealing both with domestic Russian propaganda and disinformation, as well as the large international disinformation campaigns. Consider that many of the same institutions (government and Kremlin-linked) do both domestic and international efforts, it would also make sense in that sense. Thoughts?--Euor (talk) 09:18, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

A joint article showing the connections of propaganda with disinformation is a good idea, but need not result in the disappearance/merge of this article. In the older type of propaganda, one's goal was to promote some point of view. Disinformation warriors use multiple claims to create confusion and dissension. Even the topic of disinformation alone is a huge one. See also "Reasons not to merge" # 3: "The topics are discrete subjects warranting their own articles, with each meeting the General Notability Guidelines, even if short. HouseOfChange (talk) 15:43, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for replying. You make good points. My thought-process was like this: this topic is very important, and the larger and more solid the article, the better. Much material in such an article I envisioned is covered here, meaning I can't really do more than copy it over to the other, which would make the first one redundant (unless more subsequently added here, that are more on-the-nose about disinformation and not general Russian shenanigans) or the pieces in the larger article redundant (since they're covered here). Perhaps I can consider closely what material here is relevant to the other, while having it covered more fully and with details here. EDIT: I should perhaps make it clear that a merge would also mean changing the title of the other article a bit, to reflect both disinformation and propaganda and how it is pushed by the state. Something like "Disinformation and propaganda in Russia".--Euor (talk) 17:51, 10 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment Its been going on since at least world war 2, so I don't know how that would colour it. It is assumed here that its a recent thing, but it was well established even in ww2. Its needs to be Merge and expanded. scope_creep^Talk 12:07, 28 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I would suggest having an article for Disinformation and propaganda in Russia (i.e. post 1991 Russian federation); then a separate article for Propaganda and disinformation in the Soviet Union.--Euor (talk) 20:30, 28 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This has attracted little attention. I am planning to expand and work on Propaganda in Russia article, and would incorporate content from here and make sections on disinformation effort. Thoughts? @Scope creep:.--Euor (talk) 15:13, 4 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Hi @Euor: To be honest, I'm not sure. Since there has not been much response, you have complete control. I would be careful combining them until your sure they are the same. I would like to see a definition that states one is a facet of the other, or they somehow are related in the Russian context, before you start linking stuff up. Certainly you would think that disinformation and propaganda are related but I'm not sure how, perhaps a subfield, e.g. a specialism. I don't know. It will be be interesting to see how it develops, looking forward to it. scope_creep^Talk 16:11, 4 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• I am not sure. I thought that in general those are related, but different concepts. To put it simple, a lot of propaganda is not disinformation, just presenting things in a desirable light, pretty much like an advertisement. However, the all modern-day Russian state propaganda is pretty much a disinformation. Hence I can see the point. My very best wishes (talk) 17:27, 18 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

If we agree with Merriam Webster that propaganda is "the spreading of ideas, information, or rumor for the purpose of helping or injuring an institution, a cause, or a person" then Russian disinformation is a kind of Russian propaganda. It can also be said that propaganda itself is one kind of Russian active measures. If Euor or anyone else wants to create a blended article that uses information from this article as well as more general content about propaganda, that is fine. What I object to is the disappearance of this article via a Merge to an article that so far as I know does not exist yet. HouseOfChange (talk) 15:08, 19 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I think you are probably right. I am also OK with your revert of my edit. This is excellent quote, and more important, this is exactly what they do. My very best wishes (talk) 04:04, 20 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for all the comments. I made the discussion partly because so many of the sources I see use propaganda and disinformation interchangeably. But I will update the Russian propaganda site, incorporate what is here, and then we can see if there is a point in having both. In one way, I agree its a sensible distinction, but in another I find it hard to pin down what is what.--Euor (talk) 23:50, 20 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]