Talk:Stefan Czarniecki

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Good articleStefan Czarniecki has been listed as one of the Warfare good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
November 17, 2012Good article nomineeListed

Jews during the Deluge

The fate of Jews during the Deluge certainly deserves mentioning in Deluge (history) article. If certain communities were affected during notable military operations, the relevant battle/siege/etc. articles should state so. There is no need to add that information to the articles of rulers/military commanders/etc. of that period, unless they were directly responsible/participated in such attrocities.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  16:16, 9 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Every commander is responsible for atrocities committed by his troops. Czarniecki's name is mentioned in every reference. So no whitewashing please.
M0RD00R 16:26, 9 September 2007 (UTC)[reply
]
It doesn't matter if he is mentioned in the context, you could as well blame the 17th century, too. It matters whether he is held responsible for it. And none of the sources you provided claim that he did anything then be a leader of the army, during a period in which millions of Commonwealth citizens - inluding hundreds of thousands of Jews - were killed. Czarniecki, however, did not give orders to the troops to kill those citizens. Thus this is not relevant - just as we don't include info on Holocaust losses in biographies of WWII commanders.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  16:33, 9 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Yes he is held responsible: Universal Jewish Encyclopedia "Stefan Czarniecki incited a riot in which more than 600 Jews lost their lives", Encyclopaedia Judaica "the Polish general S. Czarniecki persecuted the Jews of Srem". So the ball is on your side to present the sources of his innocence.
M0RD00R 16:36, 9 September 2007 (UTC)[reply
]
WP:FRINGE, for such dubious claims, please show reliable academic sources supporting such claims. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  16:49, 9 September 2007 (UTC)[reply
]

If we can show that modern scholarly publications attribute some of Jewish suffering during that period to Czarniecki, I do believe we should make a note of that in the article. But a few websites and information about Jewish suffering during that period (partially overlapping with the

Chmielnicki Uprising) don't make Czarniecki a "Jewish Butcher".-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 19:31, 10 December 2007 (UTC)[reply
]

Every single statement is sourced prefectly fine with
M0RD00R (talk) 19:40, 10 December 2007 (UTC)[reply
]
Reliability of most of your sources was explained above. Not everything that calls itself an encyclopedia is reliable. And who is Kandel? -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 19:50, 10 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Your opinion that Jewish encyclopedias fall under
M0RD00R (talk) 20:07, 10 December 2007 (UTC)[reply
]

It is easy to throw filth on any historical person using outdated sources. Reference it with modern academic sources and it will be OK. It still seems to me it is a problem for you. - Darwinek (talk) 20:39, 10 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

What is with sources used in article that you don't like. They all are modern. And perfectly good according to
M0RD00R (talk) 20:43, 10 December 2007 (UTC)[reply
]
Right you want modern sources and so delete
  1. Shmuel Spector, Geoffrey Wigoder The Encyclopedia of Jewish Life Before and During the Holocaust, NYU Press, 2001, p. 259
  2. Waldemar Kowalski, Jadwiga Muszyńska Żydzi wśród chrześcijan w dobie szlacheckiej Rzeczypospolitej, Kieleckie Towarzystwo Naukowe, Wyższa Szkoła Pedagogiczna w Kielcach, Instytut Historii, 1996, p. 212
  3. Pinkas hakehillot Polin by Yad Vashem.
And so on. No comments.
M0RD00R (talk) 20:50, 10 December 2007 (UTC)[reply
]
Do those sources call Czarniecki a 'Jewish Butcher'? It seems they just mention that Jews suffered in the Deluge; so did Poles, Lithuanians, Armenians, Germans and others inhabiting the Commonwealth. To blame Czarniecki for deaths of civilians during the war is quite another thing.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 20:53, 10 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Czarniecki was called butcher by Jewish chronicles. This fact was sourced also, but nevertheless it was deleted. I guess mentioning of Czarniecki in Polish National Anthem gives him immunity from
M0RD00R (talk) 20:57, 10 December 2007 (UTC)[reply
]
Between 1648 and 1672 Poland lost more than half of its population. Czarniecki did not care if his troops killed Jews, Polish peasants or Ukrainians, as back then notion of a nation did not exist. Therefore, calling him a butcher is an exaggeration, as all military commanders of that time acted in the same way. As for Jewish cooperation with the Swedes, well, this deserves a note and I will try to provide one. It is interesting that we often hear about pogroms of Jews, but never about reasons of these events. Perhaps user Mordoor would be interested in this subject - why there were pogroms of Jews, but not of Germans or Poles. Tymek (talk) 05:04, 11 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
For the record, there were those two - or to be specific, pogroms of Protestants (Poles, Germans, etc., with the most prominent being the
Arianie). They were targeted since some collaborated with Protestant Swedes. I have never heard however about Jews being singled during the Deluge - but again, this was around the time of Chmielnicki uprising when they were indeed singled by the Cossacks.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 05:52, 11 December 2007 (UTC)[reply
]

GA Review

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Reviewer:

talk · contribs) 04:26, 26 October 2012 (UTC)[reply
]

I will review this article on Saturday.
talk) 04:26, 26 October 2012 (UTC)[reply
]
Comments:
  • Instead of citing the Leszek Podhorodecki (1 January 1998). Stefan Czarniecki. reference over and over, why don't you create a "bibliography" section and use a template like {{Harvard citation no brackets}} to cite the pages? This would apply to all books used more than once.
    • I never got into a habit of using Harvard citations, which I believe are not required. I have no objections if somebody wants to spend the required hour or so, but I prefer to write content, now that refs are passable (even for a FA level). --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 17:34, 30 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • According to
    WP:FURTHER
    the Further reading section should not contain works that are used in the Reference section, unless the References section is too long for a reader to use as part of a general reading list. If a bibliography section were to be added as described above, the further reading section could be removed or filled with other works.
The review on prose will begin when the comments have been responded to.
talk) 14:29, 27 October 2012 (UTC)[reply
]
Prose
  • Polish-Swedish War same as above, twice in article
    • Done.
  • On August 6-7 ndash
    • Done.
  • fought.[11][8] switch references
    • Done.
  • he learned Western tactics, comma unnecessary
    • Done.
  • Returning from it, according to Nagielski witnessed the massacre of Polish prisoners in the aftermath of the Battle of Batoh;[21] This 1. Caps 2. The statement after according should be rewritten.
    • Done.
  • Who is "Podhorodecki"? Please elaborate a bit.
    • Done (earlier in the first para).
  • He continued his suppression campaign in 1654, an in following January took part in the Battle of Okhmativ. 1. an ->> and. 2. What made it a "suppression campaign"?
I am up to the "The Deluge" section.
talk) 15:29, 3 November 2012 (UTC)[reply
]
More:
  • Consider linking abdication and regimentarz
    • Linked abdication; regimentarz already linked upon first use.
  • He led guerrilla warfare against Swedish troops of Charles X, a type of a campaign he authored, despite the objections of the then-returned under the royal banner again hetmans. I don't follow what is meant by the "then-returned under the royal banner again hetmans".
    • It means that after betraying the king, the hetmans changed the flag again and returned to him; then objected to Czarniecki's tactics. I agree the sentence is poorly worded; I attempted to rewrite it.
  • were proven to be rather vulnerable to Czarniecki's guerrilla-style warfare. 1. were proven --> proved 2. de-link guerrilla
    • Done.
  • the Danish-Swedish War, ->> the Danish–Swedish War
  • Instead of ... would attempt to involve him ... why not just "attempted to involve him"? A sentence explaining whether he became involved would be nice too.
    • I believe he succeeded but I won't be able to verify the source till December.
  • I feel that File:Stafan Czarniecki 1.PNG should be used in the "Legacy" section.
    • How about you change them then? Art is in the eye of the beholder, I'll comment if I disagree after your switch.
  • During the period of Enlightenment in Poland he was written about by poets and writers such as Stanisław Potocki, Franciszek Karpiński, Julian Ursyn Niemcewicz and Franciszek Ksawery Dmowski, and a biography by Michał Krajewski, cementing his legend of a hero rescuing Poland from anarchy and invasion, a legend that became even stronger during the times of the partitions of Poland in the 19th century, where the artists of the Polish romanticism period used him as a symbol of patriotism, and a reminder of military successes. Definitely break into two or more sentences
      • Done.
  • Finally, I would recommend that you check the Article in Polish to see if there is anything to add.
    • I believe I did so when writing this article, and all interesting items I was able to reference were added.
I will pass when these comments are addressed.
talk) 18:07, 10 November 2012 (UTC)[reply
]
Replied to all points. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 21:08, 12 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Issues have now been fixed, so the article passes. Wizardman 03:54, 17 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

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Czarniecki is racist

Czarniecki had a savage hatred against Ukrainians. He is known for razing the village of

Bohdan Khmelnytskyi and Tymish Khmelnytskyi by digging them out and shoot their remnants out of field guns. He is definitely worst than Stepan Bandera. Aleksandr Grigoryev (talk) 02:32, 13 December 2017 (UTC)[reply
]

Polish version

There is no Polish language listed under “Languages” in the English Wikipedia. Must be added. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 49.192.120.166 (talk) 01:57, 22 December 2020 (UTC) On my device, Polish is listed, unsurprisingly.--Quisqualis (talk) 03:55, 25 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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