Talk:Vilnius Soviet of Workers Deputies

Hello

Cukrakalnis, Otr500

, many thanks for your kind contributions.

However, given the RfC was live for some 4 weeks and given 4 users expressed their views, I will arogate myself the right to close this discussion myself. All 4 contributors agree that the name Vilnius should be used. I will take it as a verdict of the Wiki community, which sorts out the disagreement between myself and Soman, and will proceed to edit the article accordingly (no April Fool's Day joke). Regards, --Hh1718 (talk) 18:05, 1 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'm ok with that Marcelus (talk) 19:26, 1 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Hh1718: DO not be disappointed about the closing. Some discussions need to be formally closed (this can be requested) and some are considered closed when an agreement has been met or there is a clear direction and there are no further additions to the comments. In cases like these silence indicates the issue is resolved.

I think it is certainly alright for an involved editor to close a discussion when it is unanimous, and I would add likely a great candidate to pass the The snowball test. -- Otr500 (talk) 18:40, 1 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hello Soman,

I have noticed that when it comes to street names in Vilnius, you seem to apply a strange convention.

I am not sure whether there are any rules in WP for street names; I have not found any, but maybe I missed the right page, in this case grateful for a link. As far as I could tell, in practice there are 3 ways: 1) all vernacular, 2) all English, and 3) hybrid.

However, you opt for none of the above. You seem to choose a hybrid, but then you transform it, so that the vernacular name in genitive gets converted to vernacular name in nominative. I would call this method "transformed hybrid".

Please let me demonstrate this using 4 examples, from Bucharest, Warsaw, Bratislava and Vilnius. I have produced a table, which presents how a specific street name would have looked like in all vernacular, all English and a hybrid (actual Wikipedia articles are linked in bold). I have also added another column, demonstrating how these names would look like using your "transformed hybrid" method.

I find the "transformed hybrid" method rather odd:

• first, it is rather unique in Wikipedia
• second, it does not look practical to me; when someone would like to find "Komunarai Street" on the map of Vilnius, even the old Soviet one, he/she will surely fail, as there neither is nor was any street like this
• third, in local language these transformations would sound rather funny if not downright incorrect gramatically

Hence, I would suggest to change the names to one of the widely used 3 conventions; since you seem leaning towards a hybrid, let it be a hybrid. In this case, I would suggest to change:

• "Komunarai Street" to "Komunarų Street"
• "A. Jakštas Street" to "A. Jakšto Street"

You actually use the regular hybrid and not the "transformed hybrid" method when you mention "Varnių Street". In this case, you are inconsistent as you do not attempt to convert the name to nominative, either in singular ("Varna Street") or in plural ("Varnos Street").

grateful for your opinion.

regards, --Hh1718

Hello Soman, grateful for your feedack. --Hh1718 (talk) 20:48, 20 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hi hh1718. So, this is by no means uncomplicated issue, and I struggled with the googling of names across the various languages involved. My general approach, not limited to this particular article, is that 1) the name should match the actually official name used at the time, 2) no full translation to English of street names (for example I wouldn't refer to Kaiserdamm as 'the Emperor Dam'). Here there is a multilingual and contested city, where power is rapidly changing hands over the course of the months involved. The activity of the Soviet can be roughly divided in main 2 periods - German military occupation (unclear to me what linguistic policy was followed in terms of renaming streets? I presume they didn't interfere with pre-WWI Russian Empire names, but honestly I don't know well) and Lithuanian SSR/Litbel SSR (that had 5 official languages with seemingly equal status).

Now, there are examples of English-language literature using hybrid names. For example "Ludka Arbeijtsman from Wrona Street , a young student in the fourth year of her baccalaureate , the youngest of us , all bubbly enthusiasm and tenacity , was sitting just here ." ([1], though this might be a Wrona Street somewhere else), "... the building of the Philharmonic Society where Soviet power in Vilnius was proclaimed on the 15th of December 1918 ; the house at No 9 Komunarai Street where the five Communards died the death of heroes in fighting against counter ..." ([2]), "In this building ( now No.9 Komunarai Street) the Vilnius Town Soviet of Workers ' Deputies resided in 1918-1919" ([3]), "The Parczewski palace on the Neris embankment , a castle with towers , and a group of houses in Komunarai Street represent the pseudo - Gothic" ([4]). Etc.

Actually, in the edit history you'll find that I had initially written "Workers Club building on 5, Varnu Street (later 9, Komunaru Street, present-day A. Jakšto Street)", that Renata3 changed to "Workers' Club building at 5 Wrona (Varnių) Street (later 9 Komunarai Street, present-day A. Jakštas Street)" ([5]) --Soman (talk) 21:38, 20 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hello Soman

Many thanks for your kind response.

In your note I failed to find whether you agree with my proposal or not. Grateful if you could please indicate whether the change suggested ("Komunarai Street" to "Komunarų Street" and "A. Jakštas Street" to " A. Jakšto Street") is OK with you.

Thanks to your note I now see that in fact, I should address my question also to Renata3, who on Sep 24, 2022 changed the original „Komunarų” to „Komunarai” and „A. Jakšto” to „A. Jakštas”. Renata3, could you please advise the rationale behind the changes you have introduced?

You might find a brief history of the street interesting (though rather irrelevant for this discussion, as we are discussing noun cases). Here is what I found:

• in the mid-19th century the place was an underdeveloped mostly rural area. On maps from the 1870s or 1880s the street is marked, but with no name
• the first map where the street is identified comes from the 1890s and it features „Старый Переулок”, see here. The Polish mp from the same period offers a similar but different name, "Zaułek nadbrzeżny", see here
• some time at the turn of the century the street got renamed, as on the map from 1904 it appears named after the city of Kherson: „[улица] Херсонская”, see here. Also on Polish-language maps it was named „[ulica] Chersońska”, see here
• following their seizure of the city the Germans initially did not change the name and on the 1915 map you can see it is marked as „Chersonstrasse”, see here
• however, on the 1916 map the street appears already as „Krähenstrasse”, see here. It is also the name referred in various accounts from the era, both in Lithuanian and Polish, see e.g. „Buvo taip pat apsuptas darbininkų klubas prie Varnių gatvės 5” in recollections of Mykolas Biržiška, see here or „Na grupę agentów natknął się na ul. Wroniej” in recollections of Wincenty Jastrzębski, see here
• I am not sure what was the name of the street during the bolshevik rule between January and April 1919, but I guess they had other things to worry about than street names. From digital press collections available at Vrublevskių biblioteka and at PBC it appears that in papers issued during these turbulent days the street was referred to as "Crow Street (former Kherson Street)"
• have no idea what was the street name during the Polish rule between April 1919 and July 1920
• the same applies to the Soviet rule between July and September 1920
• the same applies to the Lithuanian rule between September and October 1920
• on the Polish map from 1921 the street appears as „[ulica] Dąbrowskiego” and it was named so until 1939, see e.g. here

regards,--Hh1718 (talk) 17:46, 25 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hello Soman, Hello Renata3, grateful for your thoughts. Regards, --Hh1718 (talk) 14:40, 3 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Hh1718, thanks for your thoughtful write up on the history of street names. You asked why I changed to "Komunarai Street" -- it seems more appropriate to me, but I think it is a losing battle and "Komunarų Street" is fine too. Renata•3 02:02, 9 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hello Renata3, many thanks for your kind response. Hello Soman, I suppose you had more important things to do than discussing this minor issue, dangerously close to hair-splitting, so no worries. Given Renata3 has somewhat grudgingly but agreed to my proposal, and since Soman at least has not voiced his opposition, I implemented the change suggested earlier. Regards and again thanks for your advice, --Hh1718 (talk) 08:16, 10 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Hh1718. I do appreciate your effort to seek consensus, but I think we aren't really in any significant conflict here. I have no particular opinion on the Lithuanian grammar issue, I generally think it's fine to mix (local name)+(street in English) but it should be applied with some pragmatism. I think that having both historical name plus current name in parenthesis is good. --Soman (talk) 12:41, 10 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hello Soman,

I have a problem with another street name you use, namely “Wrona Street”, which appears to be a derivate from Polish. I believe it is wrong and I think it should be “Wronia Street”. Since above you kindly declare that “we aren't really in any significant conflict” when it comes to street names, I do not expect any response from you (of course unless you believe my proposal is rubbish). The below is merely to explain my rationale; unless you shout out, I will proceed with the change suggested some time from now.

1.

When pointing to the “Wrona Street” name appearing in historiography you quote an excerpt from the book by Ingrid Strobl, which goes as follows: „Dora Goldkorn again: I can still remember the first shooting lesson. There were five of us girls. I can see them all. Ludka Arbeijtsman from Wrona Street, a young student in the fourth year of her...” (p. 267). Unfortunately this is all that GoogleBooks allows me to see.

You note that the reference might point to a “Wrona Street” in another city, and I think you are very much correct. I have searched this book for “Dora Goldkorn”; she appears a number of times, but always in relation to Warsaw (pp. 253, 267, 268). She has written a book, titled Wspomnienia uczestniczki powstania w getcie warszawskim, and it appears she had nothing to do with Vilnius, please see here or here. However, there is no - and as far as I can tell, there has never been – a street named “Wrona” in Warsaw. There is a street with a similar name, “Wronia”, please see some pics here; this street was within the Jewish ghetto during WW2, so I guess this is the street meant by Ingrid Strobl, who for some reason has mis-spelled it.

2.

Of course, the above is not a proof that there was no “Wrona Street” in Vilnius. However, I have combed GoogleBooks and various digitalised Polish press collections, like Jagiellońska Biblioteka Cyfrowa here or Podlaska Biblioteka Cyfrowa here, but failed to find a reference to “ulica Wrona” in Vilnius. The only “Wrona Street” I found is in Springfield, Massachussets (sure :-) I did not find it in digitalised Polish press collections).

However, there are loads of references to “ulica Wronia” in Vilnius, often in relation to the Soviet of Workers Deputies and to the fightings of Jan 1, 1919, see e.g. a newspaper Dziennik Wileński of 21.11.1918 here or a book from 2008 here. This makes me think that also in case of Vilnius, “Wrona Street” is a mis-spelling of “Wronia Street”.

3.

Besides, though I am not an expert professional in Polish, it seems to me that “Ulica Wrona” is a linguistic mistake, which in English would sound like “the Crow the Street” or something in the like. I am sorry to come out with a treaty on linguistics, especially given you seem to be well familiar with a number of Eastern European languages, but I see no other way to clear things out. So: “wrona” means “a crow” and is a noun (singular, nominative), while “wronia” means “crow” as adjective (singular, nominative/vocative), please see here. Polish street names either use noun in genitive (e.g. Ulica Syreny, literally “Mermaid’s Street”, in Warsaw, see here) or adjective in nominative (e.g. Ulica Syrenia, literally “Mermaid Street” in Posen, see here), but they do not use noun in nominative (there is no “Ulica Syrena”). In case of a crow I can not draw such an example, as in no Polish town or city I found the genitive use of “Ulica Wrony” (literally “Crow’s Street”), except “Ulica Wrony” in Cracow, but this is not to honor a crow, but a bloke named Mieczysław Wrona.

All in all, unless someone opposes my proposal, I will shortly proceed to change “Wrona Street” to “Wronia Street”.

regards, --Hh1718 (talk) 10:10, 11 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

no challenge, changing as suggested above --Hh1718 (talk) 17:51, 20 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hello Soman, Hello Renata3, you might be interested to learn that prompted by this disucssion, I have committed an article, named Jakšto Street. Sure I need to thank you for inspiration. Of course if there is any rubbish in this article (which is possible if not likely), the responsibility is mine and only mine, and you are welcome to get things straight. I include the note on this talk page in case it might be useful for improvement of the Vilnius Soviet of Workers Deputies entry. regards, --Hh1718 (talk) 10:16, 11 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]