Template:Did you know nominations/Jack Kirby

• Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Resettlement policy of the Neo-Assyrian Empire
• Comment: I realise that most comic book fans will say "well, duh", but millions of people have seen the recent movies who have never read a comic book

Improved to Good Article status by Tenebrae (talk) and Hiding (talk). Nominated by Hawkeye7 (talk) at 03:29, 10 June 2018 (UTC).

Review

Policy compliance:

• Adequate sourcing:
• Neutral
  :
• Free of copyright violations, plagiarism, and close paraphrasing: - Earwig reports too much close paraphrase from Beyond the Bunker

Hook eligibility:

• Cited:
• Interesting: - Too unsurprising and so does not do the subject justice

Overall: The article was very readable – well done! But the hook needs more of that pizzazz. I suggest ALT1, which follows. Andrew D. (talk) 21:04, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

• ALT1 ... that Jack Kirby (pictured) created many famous comic book characters, such as the Avengers, but his conception of Spider-Man was rejected for being too heroic?

  @Tenebrae and Hiding: Could somebody have a look at re-phrasing to remove the close paraphrase? Hawkeye7 (discuss) 02:20, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

  • @Hawkeye7: um, you guys are aware they appear to have copied our article. They have a published date of 12 Feb 2012. Our article as at 13 November 2011. [3] Why would we need to change our article, shouldn't we be reporting them? Hiding T 09:52, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

    @Hiding: That's a good point. I checked the source used for the WW2 details (Ronin Ro) and this checks out as the actual origin and was written in 2004. Some tweaks to our account might be needed but they are no big deal. I reckon that we just need to agree a hook now. Andrew D. (talk) 12:21, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

    My sincerest apologies Hiding. I have seen this happen before. I have been busy and didn't check. I have another hook suggestion, combining the two:

• ALT3: ... that
  Black Panther, but his conception of Spider-Man
  was rejected for being too heroic?

  I doubt if comic book fans could readily agree what Kirby is most renowned for, but I figured that the Avengers and the Black Panther would be best known to the rest in the wake of the recent blockbuster movies. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:25, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

• Comment Don't have a concrete proposal for fixing it, but the selection of characters reeks of
  WP:RECENT and is not even entirely accurate. The choice of Black Panther is problematic, since before 2018 the character was more obscure than Iron Man was before 2008, still now is likely nowhere near as well-known as the latter, and while Kirby's role in the creation of Iron Man may be debatable, this is not the case with several other, arguably more long-term notable, characters like the Fantastic Four, who are not included. Furthermore, "the Avengers" is not a closed group of characters, and as of 2018 the characters most-associated with the name by the majority of our readers are probably the roster from the 2012 film, of whom the creation of two (Black Widow and Hawkeye) have nothing to do with Kirby but more with Don Heck, a third (Iron Man, definitely the best-known) is dubious as mentioned above, and a fourth (Captain America) is redundant as written. These problems probably need to be addressed because, precisely as a result of the recent success of films based on his work, Kirby himself has become an important topic of cultural history, and so accurate and due representation of his work, not cherry-picked based on what works were adapted into excellent and important films but which Kirby himself probably never regarded as anything more than day-to-day pay-check work, is important. Hijiri 88 (聖やや
  ) 12:58, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

  There is no doubt that Kirby would regard Captain America as his greatest creation. It was his first major success, and sold a million copies a month for a time. As did the Boy Commandos, but they are not so well known today. He was very proud of the Black Panther, and returned to the character in the 1970s. Whereas the Fantastic Four was very influential in setting off Marvel's revival in the Silver Age, but was cancelled in 2015, and I don't know how well it is known today. I hadn't considered the Avengers roster in the movies; I was thinking of the original Avengers in the comic books. He created the team, and is always credited as its co-creator, and co-created all the characters in the original line up including Iron Man, and he drew the first eight issues before handing over to Don Heck. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 22:48, 15 June 2018 (UTC)