User talk:Jayen466/Archives/2011/November
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Hey Jayen466/Archives/2011/November! I'm just dropping you a message because you've commented on (or expressed an interest in) the
If you do still have an interest or an opinion, good or bad, we're holding an
I appreciate that not everyone can make it to that session - it's in work hours for most of North and South America, for example - so if you're interested in having another session at a more America-friendly time of day, leave me a message on my talkpage. I hope to see you there :). Regards, Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 14:26, 26 October 2011 (UTC)
Question about the wikipedia Ola Rotimi page
Hi,
I'm trying to get some info regarding the wikipedia page on Ola Rotimi. I noticed you had edited it sometime in August. There is a section that lists "ebooks" by Ola Rotimi, but I could not find ebooks anywhere for him. Do they exist?
Thanks. Biodun Rotimi. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Biodunr (talk • contribs) 12:16, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
- Hi. I can't find them in the obvious places (amazon, Google ebooks) either, but they do seem to exist: [1], e.g. [2], [3] etc. Best, --JN466 23:36, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
The Signpost: 31 October 2011
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FAC review request
Hi, I'd like to request that you take a look at Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/2010 Nobel Peace Prize/archive3. The nomination doesn't seem to be attracting much interest for reasons I cannot fathom. Anyway, as I'd ideally like to put it up for TFA soon, I'd appreciate it if you could have a look and perhaps comment as to its meeting FAC or not. I've asked others to review the prose and other aspects, but for all the controversy it's generated, I'd appreciate it if you could examine the article from an NPOV perspective. Cheers, --Ohconfucius ¡digame! 02:56, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
Replied
[4] (Since it might get lost in that wall of emotion.) --Anthonyhcole (talk) 13:42, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
- Thanks. I did not read everything on that page and did not have a correct feel for the context in which you wrote. Thanks for your work there. I'll keep looking in. --JN466 16:06, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
ANI
Jayen466, if you disagree with others, rational and courteous argument is the correct response. Instead you have resorted to making offensive remarks on
) 08:02, 4 November 2011 (UTC)Veils...
Hi Jayen, can you help me find a number of suitable reliable sources (re: Muhammad) on the proportion of veiled to flame to unveiled images created of Muhammad? And if we can find similar sources for such proportions in Islam as well, that would be extra helpful. I read what you wrote on the Images talk page, and if we can well cite a valid argument, I am definitely for revisiting the proportions of the various representations on that page. Best, Rob ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 05:16, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
- It is not just a question of the proportion of veiled/flame to unveiled images; the predominant proportion I feel we should be concerned about is the proportion of abstract (e.g. calligraphic) vs. pictorial representations. My understanding is that there is a great wealth of calligraphic, pictographical and symbolic representations, and that these vastly outnumber pictorial ones. (Also note [5].) The reason is that in Islamic tradition, Muhammad is conceived of as possessing a dual nature; his physical being vs his inner essence, and it is the latter which is religiously significant and thus the typical object of (abstract) portrayal. Our article doesn't get that across.
- Within the narrow field of pictorial representations, Christiane Gruber seems to be the foremost authority, but I haven't as yet found that kind of numerical breakdown in her works. She merely says that veiled depictions predominate from about 1500. Cheers, --JN466 05:43, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
- Hmmm... I'll do some digging tomorrow (starting there) to see if I can come up with a concise argument for changing the balance to something more appropriate. If I can dig up enough stuff, maybe I can come up with a compelling argument. Yeah, as I guess you can see, I really don't care what images are there (0, 1, 100, palm trees, coffee (I like coffee))... just that they fit within WP:AllSortsOfPolicies that apply - and apparently, from what you are pointing out, they do not. Heh, kinda ironic, but had you started the whole image/RfC discussion on the image talk page, I have a feeling the results would have been quite different than the walls-o-text currently there. Even more ironic is I think it would minimize the objections as well.
- Anyway, I keep saying I'm getting offline to go to bed... this time I'm seriously going to try. See ya on the intertubes tomorrow or so, and thanks! Rob ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 06:00, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
Interesting (perhaps) question
Since this is a biography of a religious figure (and not an article on religion that mentions a religious figure), how do we (the community) balance (a) religious art, (b) Muslim art, (c) worldwide perceptions to come up with something applicable? I'd posit that in an article solely about the religious aspects, (or one discussing the differences between a-c above) that weight should be given to only (a) for the religious section - but in a biography (albeit about a religious figure), how do we find the correct balance? I'm beginning to suspect that neither side of the coin is the correct answer, and we must figure out how to keep the coin standing on edge. Best, Rob ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 18:40, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
Started a stub! Seems like that is the more common spelling in English. There's a good article in tr.wiki, but Google Translate does a pretty crappy job so I'll have to leave the translation to a native speaker... Calliopejen1 (talk) 16:59, 5 November 2011 (UTC)
- Great, thanks! I'll do some more work on it ... --JN466 18:23, 5 November 2011 (UTC)
- From JW talk ... it would be surprising to most of those who turn up at the Muhammad images page to object, who have no knowledge of the Islamic traditions of such depictions, and frequently assert that it is absolutely impossible that the artists were Muslim, they must have been Chinese or Jewish (for some reason never Christian). Johnbod (talk) 05:22, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
- Yes, curious, although it makes psychological sense in a way, given Christianity's hostility towards Islam. I appreciate that things are not as clear-cut as some sources make out to be, especially when looking at Iran; I was surprised to find this for example. Cheers. --JN466 09:35, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
- From JW talk ... it would be surprising to most of those who turn up at the Muhammad images page to object, who have no knowledge of the Islamic traditions of such depictions, and frequently assert that it is absolutely impossible that the artists were Muslim, they must have been Chinese or Jewish (for some reason never Christian). Johnbod (talk) 05:22, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
DYK for Hilya
nominate ) 00:02, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
Article imagesOver here where we don't detract from the original discussion, a quick thought: We reflect reliable sources coverage. We don't reflect all aspects of reliable sources and we should be wary before assuming that how some other point is handled in RS means we should slavishly aim to follow the same way. To take simple and occasionally laughable examples (I'm sure you can think of others), if the only RS coverage had no images we wouldn't say "our article mustn't have images either"... if it was a topic only covered in French language sources we wouldn't say our article must only be written in French... if the topic was only covered in paper sources we wouldn't exclude it because our writing is electronic... if coverage was only in new media we wouldn't require our article to adopt a media style to match the RS it was reported in, and so on. The same for images, if sources use line-art, non-free images, black and white, or a caucasian person as subject, we wouldn't necessarily copy that, we might show photos, xrays, free images, color and no bias as to ethnicity. RS is our standard for reporting facts and information. When it comes to presentational methods we are entitled to not be bound by how the topic was presented, which may have been media attention grabbing, marketing, academic study, popular information, or many other styles rather than our NPOV style, and may have not been chosen with a view to educational and knowledge-sharing value in the sources it appeared. It may have been designed for a different audience, different media, or editorial decisions made to satisfy different issues. So I don't agree with a view that how media is presented or accompanying images or other layout choices should be guided necessarily by RS. We have our educational goals, media, and audience; other types of RS have theirs. FT2 (Talk | email) 11:39, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
The Signpost: 7 November2011
) 12:30, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
Hello, Jayen466/Archives/2011. Please check your email; you've got mail! ) 03:30, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
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Reitman's Inside Scentology bookGiven that Cirt has pretty much left the topic, I think that the number of editors, if any, interested in adding any relevant material from Reitman's Inside Scientology book to articles is probably few and far between. I can access a copy of it, but wonder whether you, who have a rather different view on the subject than I do, would be interested in maybe helping balance out anything I think to add. John Carter (talk) 21:27, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
That was beautifully put[7] --Anthonyhcole (talk) 17:44, 12 November 2011 (UTC) MuhammadJayen, It's probably past-due for referring this images issue to ArbCom. I see no hope of this discussion going anywhere except around the drain; there has been absolutely no intellectual movement in the discussion on Jimbo's page (much less anywhere else). I'm hesitant to start that procedure, though, because if I do it will become a vicious, bloody free-for-all (and no, that's not an exaggeration; that's the most probable outcome). If you concur that it's the proper move, then I'll gird my loins and wade in regardless, but I don't want to do it unless I'm sure it's the proper move to make. Your thoughts would be appreciated. --Ludwigs2 04:11, 12 November 2011 (UTC)
Thoughts on something?What are your opinions on something Anthony and I discussed a few days ago: User talk:Anthonyhcole#Didactic value? Resolute 18:02, 12 November 2011 (UTC)
There are several images available of the Night Flight and we should be guided by sources. General text about the depiction of the Prophet Muhammad can be found in the chapter by Ernst Grube in his book with Marshak and Sims. A detailed account of the Night Flight can be found in Omid Safi's book. Useful text or guidance for text can also often be found on the Museum sites or the accompanying catalogues. Personally I would start improving the text in the main article Book of Kings). [9][10] I don't see any problem in having a representative image with accompanying text in the Muhammad article. At the top the article, I think a rubric could be placed explaining that the article contains images of Muhammad and giving instructions for viewing the article without the images if desired. Otherwise, in many cases, as with the Ship of Faith, there are veiled images (BL) and unveiled images (MMA, Tehran). There seems to be no need to show both. Mathsci (talk ) 07:27, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
The Signpost: 14 November 2011
) 22:38, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
If you have a minuteHi Jayen, hope you're well. If you have the time, do you think you could look over the recent edits to Tahir Abbas (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) ? I'm a bit stuck as to how V and BLP should be balanced in this case and think your opinion would be useful. Cheers SmartSE (talk) 00:26, 16 November 2011 (UTC) MuhammadThe basic problem with your "due weight" argument is that Muhammad was a real historical figure who would be important even if there had been no Muslims since the 7th century. What Muslims think or don't think about him isn't even a proper focus of the article – these belong in Islam – and to the extent it's been one seriously mars the article, which should be a biography. As it happens, these depictions were created precisely to accompany – you guessed it – biographies of Muhammad.67.168.135.107 (talk) 06:07, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
Justa note...You're doing a heck of a job @ Wikipedia talk:What Wikipedia is not. Keep it up. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 12:08, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
The Signpost: 21 November 2011
) 00:59, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
Did you know- that the word jayen in Thai means 'calm heart'? As you have been to Thailand, you probably do. Used as expression on its own, it means 'Keep cool!' or 'Calm down!'. If you ever need any help or advice, instead of going straight to MetaWiki, you can always try asking me first on my Wikipedia talk page. I don't pretend to have all the answers, but I can probably point you to the right place. Happy editing! --Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 01:09, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
Following sources vis-a-vis image useHi Jayen, you will probably be able to guess which discussion I'm referring to. I'm not able to figure out a good place to interject this comment, although you can feel free to copy it appropriately: Your suggestion that image use should be guided by prior usage in reliable sources is partially valid, in that we should always strive to follow the sources, however I feel that it fails to recognize the realities of building articles here, as opposed to the more traditional "editorial" environment which an online encyclopedia supplants. It is true that older and especially printed sources exercise restraint and selection in choice of images. Partly this is due to observation of "customer bias" as noted in that discussion. Partly too this is due to page-oriented editing choice, in that images should not overwhelm the text on any one page - we face the same choices here with "narrow waist" left and right-aligned images, image galleries, etc. but since we all have different browsers and screen resolutions, our concept of what a "page" of this encyclopedia looks like will vary reader by reader, so we can't adhere to print-publishing principles of "one or two per page" or such-like. Additionally, and I think quite important, is that when considering the methods by which reliable sources have chosen in the past to select images, those sources have always had a major cost consideration. My (admittedly non-expert) understanding of typesetting is that including a colour plate is a big deal indeed. Black-and-white pages are run through a very simple print process where printing plate = printed page. Colour representations are much more complex, other than a simple green box around something, true-colour images require 4 passes (CMYK) through a press and even the most minor alignment errors can destroy the image visibility. The pages with colour then arrive as tip-ins to the collated document, with the attendant complications. Past technology thus dictated bias in image selection, on the lines of "as few as we can muster". Also, since almost every external source to date has been a commercial work, there is also the issue of needing to either pay a commercial photographer or license an image right from someone else. Wikipedia is somewhat unique in having access to a virtually unlimited pool of volunteer image acquisition. So long as those acquired images are free of non-commercial restrictions and/or have valid usage rationales, we can reproduce them at very close to zero cost. So there is a fundamental breakage of the previous paradigms of image inclusion. This is not to say that your position is totally wrong, and I'm certainly not saying that we should indiscriminately include every image possible, editorial judgement will always be required. However I'm not comfortable with your suggestion that prior image use in reliable sources should be anything other than a secondary/contributing factor in selection here, since the publishing environment is radically different in this online work. Regards! Franamax (talk) 03:00, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
DYK for Frightful Cave
Orlady (talk) 15:14, 23 November 2011 (UTC) 00:04, 24 November 2011 (UTC) Dear Jayen466 - Sorry to write to you out of the blue, but you have been the only person supporting me in relation to the problems on my Wiki BLP. It is seriously damaging stuff, and I need some advice on how I can help matters - if you go to my own personal website you can email me from the bottom of my home page - I'd like to have a confidential discussion with you if I may - Dr Abbas — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.191.2.210 (talk) 09:56, 24 November 2011 (UTC) New film in the pipelineHi J, this may perhaps be of interest to you? Matrix producer plans Muhammad biopic. Regards, eric. Esowteric+Talk 09:59, 25 November 2011 (UTC) WT:VWould you consider withdrawing your message until after the 3 admins resolve the RfC? Editors have been trying to calm things down while we're waiting, and I'm concerned your message might stir the pot. --Bob K31416 (talk) 04:01, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
CanvassingHello. It appears that you have been canvassing—leaving messages on others' talk pages to notify them of an ongoing community decision, debate, or vote—in order to influence Tahir Abbas. While friendly notices are allowed, they should be limited and nonpartisan in distribution and should reflect a neutral point of view. Please do not post notices which are indiscriminately cross-posted, which espouse a certain point of view or side of a debate, or which are selectively sent only to those who are believed to hold the same opinion as you. Remember to respect Wikipedia's principle of consensus-building by allowing decisions to reflect the prevailing opinion among the community at large. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 15:45, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
MariusmwHi, Jay, I reported Mariusmw at WP:AN3 just before you did. You might want to revert your report and add anything to mine if there's something you want to say.--Bbb23 (talk ) 01:20, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
intercessionthx for your intercession. Do tell me when a newbie is getting bullied, I'd try and find time to help. You have found a way to make me feel better, Thanks. Do tell your wife that I intend to give her all my wages for the last twelve months from wikimedia (for my fancy title) by way of my apology. Sorry, I meant to say, I hope she is successful. I was joking with Sue that we ought to create a large template to put on the talk pages of people who use unfriendly templates. That's public record as that UK board meeting was web streamed. So ironic that I was then found guilty of that crime. wiki love 04:25, 27 November 2011 (UTC) Your nameI keep calling you Jay. Should I be calling you Jayen? I hate getting people's names wrong.--Bbb23 (talk) 23:14, 27 November 2011 (UTC) Doubt...I never doubted you or your intentions,[13] regardless of whether I agreed or disagreed with your opinions. Just wanted to stop by and let you know that. :-) Best, Rob ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 23:20, 27 November 2011 (UTC) Hi JayenWould you mind giving me a succinct statement of the problem you see with controversial image use here? I'll come back and ask about solutions later. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 09:48, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
Google Books snippet viewHi J, There's a guy editing Mughal-related articles using bare URLs to Google Books snippet view. Have advised him about using citations and link rot. In the latest case, a query in a book "X says" produces 2 snippets out of maybe 90 mentions. I notice that some of his edits have article text about say army commanders and visible snippets returned are about something different entirely, like nuts, dried fruit and prostitutes :) The editor has been accused of fakery, but is it possible that the search results returned to different users have some random element to them (which would make google snippet view even less verifiable) ? Do you see what I see here User talk:Mughal Lohar#Aurangzeb, 27 November 2011, for example? Regards, eric. Esowteric+Talk 19:47, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
The Signpost: 28 November 2011
AfC templates: yes!Hi Jayen466, Just saw the template testing task force . We could always use more ideas for new experiments and help with template redesign.
And let me take this opportunity to say that it was great meeting you and DracoEssentialis in London, and I hope to see you both again IRL soon! :) Maryana (WMF) (talk) 23:32, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
DYK nomination of Īhām and Remi KanaziRegarding your nominations of Īhām and Remi Kanazi: Per the DYK rules "5. Review requirement" as you have more than five DYKs, you are required to review another nomination for each of your nominations. Until this is done, your nominations will not be able to be approved. Harrias talk 22:51, 29 November 2011 (UTC)
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