User talk:Montanabw/Archive 7

Congrats! It reads like you had fun doing it! - Yogo: even in German I kept the sketch of the Iris, I like the juxtaposition to the final. Yogo is now #8 in line for the Hauptseite, but only 5 of them have not appeared yet. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:57, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

And now on this Hauptseite, very impressive ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:04, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

It's been fun to collaborate on these articles, Gerda. Thanks for your kind words and support! Montanabw^(talk) 16:07, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

Did you see that Yogo got more hits yesterday than the creator of the Iris? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 05:54, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

There is something really interesting going on with that, I'd love to sleuth out what it is, just like we had the huge number of hits in June prior to the TFA. Montanabw^(talk) 15:10, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

Hi, I'm not sure if this is the proper place to put this. Let me know if I should post something like this elsewhere. I remember reading a discussion you and some other editors had about golden eye color, although I can't recall the exact site. Anyway I ran across something from facebook you might be interested in. Magicgypsyranch (a breeding facility for Gypsy Vanners) posted pictures of a horse with golden eyes. They have one particularly good picture of his eye color. I'm not sure exactly what color he is. He's pinto but in some photos he appears sorrel with a flaxen mane and others he looks dusty palomino with an almost white mane. I thought you might be interested in the photo of his eye and also, since the ranch is a breeding facility, they might have some information that would be helpful to you. (The horse's name is Bobby.) Equusma (talk) 22:42, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

Good find! Do you know if anyone has figured out the genetic mechanism that creates this? Montanabw^(talk) 22:46, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

Not to my knowledge, but I'm really not up to date on things anymore. I thought the breeders might know something. Equusma (talk) 06:40, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

I'll do some digging, thanks for the tip! Montanabw^(talk) 15:35, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

Did you remove the mention of BC on Backcrossing? Sminthopsis84 (talk) 23:22, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

Unsourced trivia, basically. Montanabw^(talk) 15:27, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

Okay, no longer unsourced. I consider it important for those who come across this term and related ones such as F1, to be able to find an explanation of them. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 15:40, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

Important to explain the jargon, always. Thanks. Montanabw^(talk) 22:28, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

Such as "we" vs. "wee-wee" vs. "whee"? :-) Chedzilla (talk) 20:43, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

**snorts coffee out nose** (Sorry stalkers, ya had ta be there.) Montanabw^(talk) 22:28, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

Sounds somehow related to the "mass movement" above and your talk's seemly pressing need for "facilities." Or is it just "wind"? So hard to tell....Intothatdarkness 20:54, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Puppies need to pee somewhere.....ahhhhh....much better. WOOF! WOOF! — Puppy of Dog The Teddy Bear • ^WOOF • 20:57, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

BAD PUPPY! (Swatting). Montanabw^(talk) 21:57, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

YELP YELP WHIMPER WHIMPER!!! /licks MTBW's face/ — Puppy of Dog The Teddy Bear • ^WOOF • 22:00, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Better, but now go OUTSIDE! Montanabw^(talk) 22:09, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Great, now this will happen... :D Jesse V. (talk) 07:54, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

The WikiProject Report would like to focus on WikiProject Horse Racing for a Signpost article. This is an excellent opportunity to draw attention to your efforts and attract new members to the project. Would you be willing to participate in an interview? If so, here are the questions for the interview. Just add your response below each question and feel free to skip any questions that you don't feel comfortable answering. Multiple editors will have an opportunity to respond to the interview questions, so be sure to sign your answers. If you know anyone else who would like to participate in the interview, please share this with them. Have a great day. -Mabeenot (talk) 03:30, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

Hi, Montanabw. Thanks for keeping an eye on this trifling flight of fancy, but it was Penyulap that added the second paragraph, not the article creator (=me). Then he courteously removed it when I took issue with it. Please see my edit summary here for that. But I'm glad to see, from his edit summary, that he means to try to put back some reworked version of the point he wanted to make. I certainly don't want to chase off other contributors and "own" the essay; I'm sure we can figger something that makes everybody happy. I just didn't think the addition as originally phrased fitted in with the first part, and even less with the title. Worded like that, it would go better on talk, IMO. (Talk is not a scrapyard or second tier.) But I expect, when P has time, that he would rather think about a refurbished version for the essay as such. Not many people have edited it — the essay isn't old — though many have had a chuckle about it on my talk. But it would be nice to see it flow and expand under many different pens — perhaps into a Wikipedia:Featured Essay! Regards, Bishonen | talk 22:30, 24 July 2012 (UTC).

That was my screwup, I got confused by the diffs. Never mind... and it's a great essay. Now, to go find a troll and say "with all due respect..." LOL! Montanabw^(talk) 23:14, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

You rang? Chedzilla (talk) 23:28, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

With all due respect...possibly. Or maybe it was just that darned wind again. Intothatdarkness 20:55, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Bless your hearts. Montanabw^(talk) 21:58, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Regarding your request here, I just wanted to let you know that I've posted an update on how things are going with it. Just FYI; feel free to check it out. Jesse V. (talk) 23:55, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

Wikipedia:The Core Contest - still can work on stirrup!

Yipes! We could, couldn't we? Montanabw^(talk) 17:21, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

Hi. I didn't remove the template. I moved it, to where the article is currently located, as I explained in the original edit summary. The page

I agree it might not be in that project's "Top" importance selection, but "High" might be more appropriate than "Mid". The place to change that is at Talk:Tooth (and/or you could suggest/note/discuss it at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Biology. Possibly someone was using a specific list, when deciding which items were to appear within the "Top" importance group?)

Ta. -- Quiddity (talk) 03:07, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Well, there shouldn't be a template on a redirect page at all, really, the talk should have been merged too, may have needed an admin if there was other content. Montanabw^(talk) 03:35, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Victuallers (talk) 07:58, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

I have completed what I thought was a reasonable article on the late Canadian journalist Marjorie Nichols, whom I wanted to add as a notable University of Montana graduate. The link still keeps coming up red. Any idea why this might be? Dreadarthur (talk) 02:50, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

• Discovered the article title was spelled Marjorie NIchols <-- extra capital "I" -- I just did a move to fix it, should work now. Wikipedia, for some reason I cannot understand even after reading the explanation five times, knows that a lower case letter could be rendered as a capital, but refuses to believe a capital letter could be rendered lower case. Except in the search engine, which seems to get it. Montanabw^(talk) 17:50, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

Hi, re this revert - Category:Horse stubs is part of the Category:Stub categories tree, the subcategories of which are supposed to hold only stub templates (such as {{Horse-stub}}) and articles tagged with those templates. By contrast, Category:Stub-Class equine articles is part of the Category:Wikipedia 1.0 assessments tree, more specifically the Category:Articles by quality tree, the subcategories of which contain talk pages (triggered by the use of the |class= parameter in a WikiProject banner). The two trees may overlap in scope, but there are not normally direct category links between them - those that exist cause the category to show in Wikipedia:Database reports/Dubious stub categories. --Redrose64 (talk) 14:18, 4 August 2012 (UTC)

OK, but so why is is such a bad thing to have one category cross-link to the other? I'm still mystified. Montanabw^(talk) 19:26, 4 August 2012 (UTC)

It's mainly to do with the concept of "content categories" versus "project categories". I can't find the guideline, so I've asked at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Stub sorting#Stub cats with non-stub subcats. --Redrose64 (talk) 19:51, 4 August 2012 (UTC)

Hi. I noted that you reverted my recent removal of unref'd material at this article. I think it's long overdue an 'improvement drive', so, though not being an expert, intend spending some time at the library to see what material can be correctly referenced. Would like to get the article at least to 'B' status. As you are obviously an interested editor, I hope we can collaborate on getting rid of 'improvement tags' in place since 2009. Best. RashersTierney (talk) 21:24, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

We have over 3000 article in WPEQ, most of which would benefit from help. So instead of

WP:DEMOLISH, how about starting by not deleting random material from the article, but instead, going over to WikiProject Equine and asking for help? And frankly, you're closer to that particular library, I suspect. Montanabw^(talk)

21:55, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

sort of on the subject of Connemaras I found a nice article on Stroller (horse). I've just stuck it in the references section of the article for now, but it could be used for lots of in-line citations.  Tigerboy1966  22:16, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

I do that when I find cool potential sources that I don't have time to add, also. Thanks! Montanabw^(talk) 22:26, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

See my section below! I'm hoping to get it to GA/FA at some point, as part of my over-all goal of doing saame for all the British (and Irish) native pony breeds. Pesky (talk) 10:34, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

I would like to enlarge the section slightly on how horses sleep while standing. There seems to be a lot of misinformation out there. I know for sure that they lock their stifles. A ligament runs over the top of the patella and locks it in place. Sometimes this ligament gets over-stretched which causes the horses leg to lock up, when extended all the way back, when in motion. (Not good in a jumping horse, or in a race horse). This condition is called "upward fixation of the patellar ligament". At one time, the preferred treatment was to cut the ligament- vets had a special tool to do this, but I think they have gotten away from this. So I have a few questions I hope you can answer. Firstly, this condition I have described which I think is called "stifled" in layman's terms- Even though it is interesting, should it go in a general article about the horse? The way the horse locks his stifle is quite interesting and I think, worth a picture, but I have no idea how to insert a picture in the text. Where would I find instructions on doing this. And lastly, I have been reading quite a few posts on facebook which say a horse locks his knees. I don't THINK this is true, but I intend to ask the numerous vets that work on the track, as well as the vet I used to work for, and 2 friends who are vets. My question; Are they considered sources or should I ask them for the name of their text book or other book they recommend? I know you are very busy, but I would really appreciate it if you could help me with this. I'm not in a hurry, I just thought this was one place I could start to learn the proper way to edit, since I find the subject interesting, and have some first hand knowledge of the mechanics of it.Equusma (talk) 19:00, 6 August 2012 (UTC)

Way too much for the main horse article, but maybe good for the spinoff article Horse_behavior#Sleep_patterns, where we DO mention some of the bit on the stifle joint, but you MUST have proper citations for all of this. My suggestion is to do the research, and then post what you've found and we can help you smooth it out. Montanabw^(talk) 19:05, 6 August 2012 (UTC)

Language-nerdy input: this is exactly where the term "stifled" (as used in "to stifle an argument / the opposition") comes from :D Pesky (talk) 10:37, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

At the moment I'm just doing some bluelink-surfing gnoming, while waiting for inspiration and motivation strike to deal with the Connemara pony thing. I will most probably have to draw another prehistoric map for the article, which means doing some intensive research into Irish prehistory (of equids) and history (of human use of equids) to address the History section. You know what I'm like about that prehistory stuff! I also want to look deeply into the "Spanish influence" thing, as the Connemaras are the British breed most likely (on logistical grounds) to have a decent claim to the alleged-myth. If you know anyone who has DNA-study results on prehistoric Irish equid remains and their relationship to modern breeds, or has access to decent historical documents on exactly when, where, and how many Spanish war stallions were thrown overboard, combined with any contemporaneous documentation of such swimming to shore or otherwise coming into the possession of the locals, that would be seriously interesting, even if it couldn't end up providing much for the article. Any and all links gratefully received on my talk! Pesky (talk) 10:30, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

You know, we could start by just improving the characteristics, uses and recent history, adding in the "dawn of time" stuff as time permits. My thinking is that the article is so weak now that just better sourcing of what's there would be a big step up! An FA definitely would need the best history possible, but to work on GA quality would be all I'm really thinking of at the moment. Montanabw^(talk) 18:37, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

I'll try and make time to have a serious read-through, do some good source-hunting, and work on it. Probably within the next week or so, depending ... Pesky (talk) 09:14, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

I've tweaked the characteristics / breed standards about (the previous version was actually a copyvio from the Irish breed society!) Pesky (talk) 10:25, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

This is one of those articles that has had minor cleanup several years back, but never any real article improvement. Everything helps. Montanabw^(talk) 17:38, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

I will definitely get onto it. I'm adding to my "tabs open" collection at the moment (should really add to the reading list, except that I never read the reading list, lol!) this is one I shall use. Pesky (talk) 06:59, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

All I can say is *shrug*!! I just found it on one sport horse profile, and looking through other pages there were no info boxes whatsoever at all, so I used that one and put in info. Don't see it doing much harm? --Catxx (talk) 17:50, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

Better than no infobox, definitely, and seems suitable but best not to change those with "named horse infobox" because I think that's the one that WPEQ is maintaining. Maybe just be sure that if any info is moved to the infobox that nothing gets deleted (height, pedigree, nicknames, etc.) But there is some interaction with WP Horse racing too, and sport horses ARE different from race horses, so I'll check to see if there's been a consensus shift. Montanabw^(talk) 18:35, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

It would be good that whoever can do such a thing can add a "height" section to the sport horse box. I'm not clever enough to do that! I make sure to never remove information, very careful about that. --Catxx (talk) 09:23, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

I ought to take this to WPEQ and see if we have too many infoboxes for named horses and should merge them; clearly the race horses need different stats from sport horses, but there are a lot of commonalities too. Montanabw^(talk) 17:09, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

Why do you insist on defining

I don't even have that article on my watchlist, so why are you bothering me here? And the article says ancestry is "...generally unknown and that has characteristics of two or more types of breeds" anyway. So not sure why you are here throwing a fit about it, or why you are throwing a fit at all. Montanabw^(talk) 17:46, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

i am so sorry if i seemed offensive to you. Please cut me a break this time, i had surgery last friday and should not have been on the ‘puter. i made an even larger mess on facebook. i may not always be charming but i try not to be rude. at one point my friend told me to put the laptop down and step away wish she had done that sooner.

Sara goth (talk) 18:20, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

Forgiven. But you may want to read WP:Editing under the influence. LOL!

it's so true, bad day still not felling that great. i did notice when you added the images to the zoomontana site. i was not looking forward to going out and taking images, but i should support the zoo more, so i was happy to see you add those thank you. i was looking at some of your images you have some good helena images that would help on that site. i like the placer center images one even has the bullwacker in it. i have always liked that building and the walking mall.

Sara goth (talk) 18:37, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, the Zoo hadn't greened up yet, so was a little so-so, but better than none at all. You appear to enjoy taking photos (but add categories to them in commons -- many don't have them), and so may want to look at the national register of historic places lists for Montana and for individual counties, there is a project out there to get photos of every building/place on the NHRP. Helps that I have decided that I don't give a crap if the cell phone doesn't take great pictures, it's usually better than NO pictures! Have gotten in the habit of just taking random photos when I am anywhere. Added some from Polson, Montana not long ago, as well as some from Great Falls, including a 20-minute side trip over to First Peoples Buffalo Jump State Park. Grabbed one of the Sacajawea Inn last summer while stopping for gas, and a stay at The Murray Hotel also got images for its article as well as a couple others. Have some from Butte to add, but want to make one set into a panorama first. Feel free to add the Helena ones if you want, but not to the point we get a gallery going - best not to overdo the photos, IMHO, the Billings article is image-heavy, though a few were recently tossed, improving the layout a bit. Montanabw^(talk) 18:55, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

you have donated a lot of images a lot! i hope to do more but i really do need to categories. thanks for the tip on register of historic places i am going to check that out. i take most of my images with a rebel xt but my friend has an i-phone that i swear takes better images and has cool editing aps. i keep bugging her to let me go out and take some images with it or heck she can even take the images i just want to see them. we went to a concert at the babcock theater she took some images of the front of the place they look why cooler than the ones i took with my rebel. i'm glad you got some butte images it is such a cool town, so much history but few good images. i am the one that over did the images on the billings page but all the billings images were so old and the city is changing daily. then as i edit i go hmmm not an image for that need one, not an image for that need one i don't think it was way out but. but you may need to keep an eye on me because i still think there is things that there should be images of. if i get out of line just tap me on the shoulder, for YOU i think that is all it will take.

where is first people's buffalo jump state park? Sara goth (talk) 19:42, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

Not too far from Great Falls. I fixed the wikilink! Montanabw^(talk) 19:57, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

Categories are CRITICAL for article writers, especially in Commons! As for photos, the toughest thing is to be willing to let your "babies" go when someone else manages to upload a better one. I've noticed that once a category is created and images added, suddenly it seems to be a magnet and then there are TONS more images that appear. For example, note Connemara ponies, a commons category that once barely had any images, and now has many nice ones! Montanabw^(talk) 19:57, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

wow there is some really cool images there! pretty babies! you seem to be big into horses i noticed, do you have horses yourself? we had two horses when i was very young but my parents could not afford to keep them still have fond memories still love the smell of a horses. Sara goth (talk) 20:13, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

Stalker butting in, lol! Hi Sara! Sorry to hear about your health issues, but as a veteran surgery-patient my own experience is that surgery is almost always incredibly successful and well worth it. The post-surgery anaesthetic brain-fog is always one to beware of, though! Montana, is Pitke still active? Her talk page is a bit old. I'm asking because she was incredibly helpful at adding categories to images when I was first uploading them. Pesky (talk) 07:04, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

Heh, heh, I seem to be big into horses, eh? (**snorts coffee out nose**) How'd ya figure that one out? LOL! Oh yeah, don't have a lot of horses at the moment, but various members of my crew (not all of whom I currently have) have helped illustrate several wiki articles, particularly when I've needed models and no images existed! several Montana tack shops have been quite helpful, as well. Montanabw^(talk) 17:07, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

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Pitke (talk

Telepathy rules OK! Welcome back to Teh Coven, lol! Pesky (talk) 09:06, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

Aww thanks sweetness. As for my activeness... Well, it's low and not nearly as frequent as before, but I'm happy to help. Probably going to have a look at what Commons horsey cats look like these days, this weekend. Pitke (talk) 21:40, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

Made some tweaks over there, see your talk. Montanabw^(talk) 22:08, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

Oooh, it does, it does, though! But only when combined with dun ... Philip Sponenburg and I had an interesting e-chat about this one a few years back, with input from a few Fjord breeders etc. One of the things which had happened back in the past was that the breeders had had to recommend not breeding "light blue duns" together because they were getting too many unacceptable double cream dilutes from the cross. Cool, huh? Ergo, the "light blue duns" (black-based, which look different from the dunskin duns) must have had a cream gene, or no double dilute crosses. Philip did say that he was going to bung that in his latest edition of his book; dunno if it's had a new edition since then, but if it has, that's where the ref should be. Cream doesn't dilute black in a single dose by itself, but does in combination with dun. Do you know (can you find out?) what cream+champagne does on a black base? Heh! When I become rich and get the Sorraia colt I want, I'll cross him to some double-cream thing and get some kewl pics ;P Pesky (talk) 03:38, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

Adding: see here for nice piccies (noting particularly the black-base muzzle!) to compare with this and this as un-extra-diluted blue duns. It's a clear visible difference in the coat colour. Pesky (talk) 03:54, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

Aha! PS himself: "On mouse duns the cremello gene in a single dose will be barely be noticed, although it can lighten them somewhat." (emphasis mine) :D (Hey, yes, he should have called it the cream gene, but maybe he was tired ...) Pesky (talk) 04:10, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

I'm not arguing that cream doesn't exist in Fjords, it obviously does. The problem with the edit is that it implied a cream body, which it is not. But all those images to me look like garden variety grullos, in the Quarter horse world, there are a lot of them. But ONE copy of the cream allele wlll not affect black pigment to a significant degree, only red; hence the body can be very light, but the black hairs will stay black, or at least smoky black. Takes two copies to get a blue eyed cream. If the horse is grullo + cream, I can see the coat being lightened a bit more due to the "smoky" effect, , but the black mane and tail stay black. Montanabw^(talk) 04:21, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

Yup, the mane and tail do stay black, even on the cream+dun black bases (because dun gene doesn't dilute manes and tails). But as PS comments that it "can lighten them somewhat", I think that should be sound enough for a source? Not going to get into sword-fights with you on it, obviously (although maybe we could get together for some mud-wrestling and make our fortunes by selling tickets to other Wikipedians .. he he!) I'm definitely going to have to do some blue dun x cream-gene breeding and get PS or someone to write up a report on them, with all the relevant testing, and loads of nice pics. ;P Pesky (talk) 04:26, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

Ooops, only just noticed; I didn't mean to imply a cream body; the body comes out almost white (slight shades of silver), with black-based dun markings (including mane and tail). The added cream only dilutes where the dun has already diluted, if you see what I mean.

pic; 'nother pic. Pesky (talk) 04:27, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

More!: In the chats PS and I were having with Fjord breeders, you get a pretty classic Mendelian thing goin on if you cross these silver-white-bodied blue duns together: 50% same colour, 25% bog-standard blue duns (darker-bodied), and 25% blue-eyed creams (with smoky-silver manes, tails, lower legs). Pesky (talk) 04:45, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

Hee hee! The PS page WAS the source I was using, LOL! And the mendelian ratios are already well known by anyone who studies cream dilution. The little almost white guy has some yellowing in his coat in one shot. I suppose there can be some form of pseudo double dilute with two different dilution genes, it happens with the barlink factor (pearl gene). But the edit that started all this wasn't worded properly... these aren't the "uls dun" according to the source -- those are what other breeds call a "buckskin dun."  ;-) See how it is worded now Montanabw^(talk) 04:53, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

Gleck! Yes, I didn't check the source you used, lol! My excuse is that I'm knackered, having spent a large part of the day at the hospital with daughter and littlest grandchild, and then hardly slept last night. I'm not making myself clear, here, clearly (or not clearly ...). The thing I was talking about is those very pale silver grå blue duns, which will give 25% double-cream dilute offspring when bred together, whereas the darker ones don't. Obviously applies to the ulsblakk and gulblakk animals, too. The very pale silver grå animals can be produced by breeding darker-bodied grå to ulsblakk or gulblakk, or darker-bodied grå to the very pale grå (so that's where the cream gene comes in). Yup, I cocked up with the ulsblakk thing in my original edit (I was stupid). They need a new word for those silvery chappies!

P.S. From my own experience with very light-coated animals, I suspect that the "yellowing" on him may be a hard-to-remove stain or two! Pesky (talk) 05:11, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

All forgiven. I will admit that the light-light-light body color is unusual, and though QH's have both dun and cream genetics up the wazoo, (and I've seen tons, they are the generic horse around here) the Fjord variation seems to be unique to Fjords; wonder if there's yet more going on; the way they have the reverse-skunk stripe in the mane and tail when other duns just have a few white guard hairs hints at this... Montanabw^(talk) 20:07, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

From personal experience and observation only, the amount of dilute guard hairs in the mane and tail cap seems to be very closely linked with the texture of the mane and tail hair; the more "shaggy native" the texture, the more of that edge dilution we seem to get. 'Nother interesting thing: presence or absence of pangare seems to have a direct effect on mane and tail thickness and hair texture, though whether it's the pangare gene itself, or something tagging along with it in the same section of the same chromosome, I dunno! But this is particularly interesting in siblings and half-siblings where the parents (judging from phenotype) are most likely hetero for pangare. The amount of pangare (heh! Pesky talking in layman's terms again!) is associated not only with the amount of dilution in a fairly easy-to-spot-and-quantify way, but the amount of dilution is going directly with smooth, to medium-coarse, to thick and springy mane / tail hairs. I've been looking at this one, on the ground, for many years now, and haven't seen an exception to it yet. Pesky (talk) 04:19, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

Just popping by to note that Icelandics too with their thick manes have the skunk stripe thing going on, just browse them on Commons. It's just that their manes don't get habitually roached to show it off. I suppose dun Shetlands (original model) also have the stripe, as well as any dun crossbreed with sufficiently thick maned parents. Pitke (talk) 05:45, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

On the pangare thing, add the Haflingers to your list, though they do not appear to have any dilution genes and are all flaxen chestnuts. But Pitke, am I correct that whatever else goes on with dilution genes in the Finnhorse, they do NOT have much pangare? And they have cream but not dun?? Yet Pesky, the Exmoor ponies almost all DO have pangare, but not dilution genes, correct? Dun horses descended from Spanish breeds, such as the Quarter Horse, (see here) tend to have very few white hairs in their manes, one reason why they are often confused with buckskins -- in fact, at one time, before DNA of coat color was well understood, there was an argument that a "real" buckskin had to have the black dorsal stripe, which we now know is from dun, while the true genetic buckskin without the black dorsal stripe, in the old days, was sometimes called a "sandy bay." (Go figure) You also see very little if any pangare in the American breeds descended from Spanish ancestors, but tons of dun and other dilution genes. (examples in Mustangs) I wonder if the heavy white guard hair thing is a primitive characteristic unique to northern European horses but not southern Europe? And the other head-scratcher is why, if dun is/was a

wildtype color, it has completely disappeared in the Arabian, along with all other dilution genes and all pangare. (Existence of any dilution genes is considered proof positive that a horse is not a purbred Arabian) The plot thickens, or maybe the thought plickens... Someone has GOT to get funding for more ancestral DNA studies of those northern European horses. The Spanish have been putting up the big bucks (relatively speaking) for DNA work because they soooo want to prove they are an ancient site of domestication and such and the place where the perfect horse originated. I guess the UK just does not have the same level of national pride in the shetland pony... (giggle). Montanabw^(talk)

16:52, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

This is all fascinating stuff (but then I've been fascinated by coat colour genetics for yonks!) Yup, the pangare seems to be present primarily in the northern European equids, and absent from the desert-type animals. There's a mass of pangare ion the Haflingers; more now than there used to be as the pseudo-palomino ones (homozygous for pangare) have become the "popular colour". (Pangare is cumulative.) When I was a kid, most of the Haffies were the non-pangare-dilute flaxen red-chestnut variety. With the absence of pangare in the desert-descent animals, my own suspicion is that pangare was disadvantageous for hot-climate / dry-climate animals, as it does throw a coarser coat (most noticeable in the mane and tail). Exies are all homozygous black, mostly (judging from phenotype) homozygous sooty, all homozygous pangare, and homozygous agouti (probably A^t). No dilutions now other than pangare, though judging from ol reports, there used to be some either dun or cream. Sooty seems to be cumulative, from my own field research. Very-sootied animals throw sooties 100% of the time; lighter-sootied animals, bred together, do the Mendelian thing and throw around 25% very sooty, 50% more-lightly-sootied, and 25% no sooty. The specific sooty patterns appear to have a genetic factor going on, as they recur in families (sooty lineback, sooty rump mantle, sooty blanket, etc.) I strongly suspect something like the PATN+Lp thing going on with the sooty gene(s).

Of course the real head-scratcher in Shetties is Mushroom :D I have my theories on that one; would love to get someone to "bite" on that. I'm suspecting either some kind of fading sooty (and interesting that fading blacks have turned up in the same families as mushroom ...) or alternatively some other gene(s) acting on sooty. Of course mushrooms are all red-based. Now, if I was a multi-millionnaire ... Pesky (talk) 04:25, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

I'd like to see it researched if Mushroom is an e-tied recessive dilution... Recessive it seems to be, thanks to breeding experiments that have thus far produced only Mushrooms from Mushroom parents, and ee-exclusive it seems to be because other breeding experiments (and iirc a couple of DNA tests) show that all Mushrooms are genetically ee. Now, if it's a pheomelanine dilute, why are bays unaffected? Either the M factor is tied to the e allele, or it's a whole new allele for the E locus. Ugh I want to get involved in those experiments so bad =_= Monty, Monty, please spread a rumour in the USA that Mushroom is potentially lethal under some circumtances and might cause foals to die and might affect the American Shetland Pony lines :P Bam, instant DNA tests :D Well, as instant as you can get with developing DNA tests :P Pitke (talk) 07:23, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

But Pitke, am I correct that whatever else goes on with dilution genes in the Finnhorse, they do NOT have much pangare? And they have cream but not dun?? They do have Pangare but it's usually pretty mild: typical example would be like this... of course this has to do with the fact that most Finnhorses are sorrel or chestnut, and the shades are often light of themselves. This page has a nice collection that pretty much reflects the average Finnhorses: most are ee, a few are bay or black, one is grey, 50-70 % have no discernible pangare, some have a bit, and a couple have strong pangare (Joihun Vire, Murun Mainio, Lavilan Minttu). (Ratun Ritari is listed (and likely registered) as a sun-bleaching black but he looks like a seal brown, perhaps bleaching, to me...). Some of those btw are not Finnhorses. Just in case you were wondering. Valtteri Valloitus is the first a+-type bay I've seen in Finnhorses! And these are all young horses, it's exciting to see so many are non-ee. Many are by famous "blackmane givers" i.e. EE sires... Humeeti and Pellervo are famous/successful black dressage stallions, Hermeli is an EE bay trotter sire iirc. Pitke (talk) 16:36, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Oh any yes you are correct, no dun in Finnhorse pool. Estonians have it afaik and they also have loads more creams going on thanks to no crazy ideas about sorrel=purebred. Pitke (talk) 19:48, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

More: sooty really should be investigated! (needs to be mapped first ...) It does something with the metabolism of sugar-tyrosines, and so might be interesting with respect to metabolic disorders, laminitis, maybe even diabetes. Worth researching properly. Ben d'Or spots seem to be one expression of sooty. Interesting fing: I have a chestnut mare with sooty, who on wild pasture has a red coat with a couple of Ben d'Or spots. When I had her at home for a while, I stuffed her with sugar beet as her extra food, to see what it did to her coat. Next coat-change, she came out liver chestnut with indistinct Ben d'Or spots, and on returning to wild pasture reverted to red and spots. I will see if I can hunt out some pics to show the change.

And, @Pitke mainly, the width of the pale guard hairs seems directly related to the width of the mane-base. Animals with narrow mane-bases (finer manes) have less of the dilute guard hairs; it seems that the dun pattern works on a width-of-body area thing on the dorsal line in the mane and tail, and the wide-base-mane-and-tail-hair animals get the dilution right into the edges of the mane. So it may be more "technically correct" to work on the basis that dun dilutes up to a specific point on the dorsal line, rather than that it doesn't dilute manes and tails (as it clearly does dilute part of the mane / tail). Pesky (talk) 04:37, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

Hehe! Me again, lol! I also would really love to find out exactly what this unspecified dilution thing is which appears in a very few Foresters. It's familial (so has a genetic base); coat colour comes out more golden-ish than standard. It's not cream or dun. It's not champagne (no obvious effect on eye colour). It's something else. Affects both red-based and black-based animals. Pesky (talk) 05:02, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

Check out the

silver dapple, though that only affects black pigment. I would hesitate to call Haflingers "pseudo-palomino," as clearly they are all chestnuts. No sense inserting what's not there. Pangare and flaxen genetics do need work, though, as does sooty; and I would not be surprised if there is more than genetic mechanism linked to sooty. I'm not really sure pangare is a dilution, precisely, any more than seal brown is, even with the lighter hair in spots. But who knows? I'm not sure what color you call "Mushroom," got a pic or two?? BTW, check email soon, I'm going to send you some stuff on my critters you'll enjoy. Montanabw^(talk)

15:42, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

For Mushroom ponies, Monty, see [the Kellas Stud homepage] for pics and pedigree investigations. [This page btw] claims that mushrooms are suspected in not only Shetlands but also Haflingers and Quarter Horses! Purebred Haflingers obviously can't be silver dapple blacks, but for the QH instance I demand illustrated pedigrees :P [This] is claimed to be a mushroom Haflinger. Go and figure if it's an actual purebred Haflinger or not :P Pitke (talk) 11:55, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

About sooty, Pesky, theory has it that sooty on ee somehow super-packs pheomelanin to quantities where it looks pretty black to the eye. Since pheomelanin production is tied to hormonal activity and the quality of feed, I wouldn't be surprised if these factors can affect the amount of visible sooting in an ee horse. (Do sooty bays have actual eumelanin in their soot or is it super-packed pheomelanin?) But are really really dark liver chestnuts just sooted all over? This Paso Fino has pretty normal pasterns but the topline looks almost black... Soot, as we know, "spreads" from the topline. But if super livers are caused partly or solely by soot, then how come there are super livers that are also super flaxen?? Unless flaxen overrides soot? If yes, then where do the occasional grey-maned chestnuts come from? Those that cannot in any way be silver dapple bays? @_@ Pitke (talk) 11:55, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

the width of the pale guard hairs seems directly related to the width of the mane-base. Exactly. The thicker the mane the clearer it seems to be, that dun factor makes the "guard hairs" paler just like the coat, but the effect halts at the topline, the "heart" of the mane and tail. Would be very nice to know how this mechanism works. Pitke (talk) 16:36, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Pitke see the stuff at Dominant white, there is something in there (I think, or surf my coat colors sandbox for the discussions I had with Countercanter about all this) regarding cells affecting pigment migrating down from the neural crest, I think there could be a link with the mane/tail thing. Some dominant white horses have pigment in their skin, and if they do, it tends to be along the topline. No clue what the connection is, but I'm betting there is one. Montanabw^(talk) 17:28, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Nah, it's definitely not pearl! Pearl horses come out kind "pinky" colour, whereas these on the Forest are definitely "goldenish", and goldenish in a very similar way to champagne horses rather than cream-dilutes. They also have that distinct light-reflective "metallic" thing about them, though to a lesser extent than is often seen in champagne. With the metallicky thing, I suspect that the actual mechanism of the dilution is that it's affecting the concentration of pigment granules in the centre, rather than the cortex, of the hair shaft, as it's produced by the way the light reflects / refracts within the individual hairs (and centre dilution or total absence of pigment in the centre causes some of the light to reflect back in a completely different way). Pangare I thin of as a "pattern dilution", because it clearly does dilute the hairs in the areas where it works, and those areas are always in a distinct and recognisable pattern. Homozygous pangare extends the pattern higher up the body than heterozygous pangare and also causes lesser dilution in the non-pattern areas. There are some excellent pics of mushroom, and loads of info (including extensive pedigree info and genetic testing results), on the Kellas Stud site. Thanks for the email (lovely horse!) The Kinsky horses have a similar metallic look, though much more pronounced, than the mystery-dilution Foresters. The Foresters have dark(ish) skin and eyes (definitely not pinky skin, though I haven't been able to get close enough to part the hairs and see if there's some less significant effect on skin pigmentation). Pesky (talk) 05:50, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

That boy looks like a roan to me. Maybe roan on rabicano, neither of which is particularly well understood. Pearl in the USA is described as "apricot" and there is slight skin dilution, not as marked as with cream or even champagne. Those ponies LOOK like little mushrooms, color or no! Just so short and fuzzy! They sure do look like silver dapple is involved there, weird. Montanabw^(talk) 17:28, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

That boy looks like a roan to me [Pesky ROFLMAO ....] Ehem. Did you see the caption? Pesky (talk) 11:48, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Heh, yes, after I answered... :-D. Montanabw^(talk) 15:53, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

News Flash! (Pitke!) Looks like they have a test for some splashed white! http://www.horsetesting.com/splash.htm (Don't know if there is peer-reviewed journal articles on this yet or not...!) Montanabw^(talk) 17:28, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Ooooh very nice indeed! But... "SW3/SW3 Possible homozygous lethal" ehh why not just call it "homozygous" until the lethality thing has been figured out? :/ Pitke (talk) 19:48, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Lawsuits. (sigh) Possibly there is either some connection to the same genetic regions as dominant white (W). Or maybe (less likely) frame overo. Each have problems when homozygous, but different ones. The non-viable embryo thing is a concern with dominant white, but the studies that found it had a lot of methological flaws -- for one thing, they were pretty much looking only at pure white horses with blue eyes, and we know know that dominant white alone does not produce blue eyes but splash does, so the possibility exists that either gene is the culprit; also the deafness with some splash horses (mostly when ears are white, it seems) is an issue. Which is why I'd kill to see what's in the peer-reviewed literature on this. Wanna go tweak splashed white and overo? I'm up to my ears in RL alligators (though metaphorical alligators, only wish RL was also a metaphor... :-P ) but can probably do edits and cleanup. Montanabw^(talk) 21:07, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Hi, you can find my course project here. I'm basically following the template provided by the United States Education Program (with some customization), which I find to be extremily helpful. I've located some articles related to my course content that need improvement. My students will work in groups of 3-4 on each article (or part of article). I'm expecting students to do most of the work outside of class, though I'm planning on dedicating ~1/2 hour each week in class to address issues related to this project. You can see a grading rubric at the site. I'm a newbie, so this will be interesting. Hopefully we won't make too many mistakes. I'm happy to share thoughts/ideas about this project. I can certainly use help from an experienced editor, if you're gamed. No pressure though. I know people are busy in their non-WP life. Neuropsychprof (talk) 04:40, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

(talk page stalker) I'm interested as well, replied on your Talk page. • Jesse V.^(talk) 06:05, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

Hi, your recent change to my edit on the First Interstate Tower photograph does imply that Wyoming and North Dakota don’t count as you stated in your edit but it also implies that South Dakota, Idaho parts of Colorado, Minnesota and Canada don’t count. All I am pointing out is the physical size of the region. This is the tallest building in a large area and that is far larger than just Montana and that is significant. I am very much open to other phrasing but I am at a loss as how to point out the region without pointing out the boarders of the area.

I also had that the tower was completed in 1985 you changed that to “build in 1985” construction of this building started in early in 1984 and was not completed until June of 1985. So “completed in 1985” is a more honest statement.

I’m sure we can work this out. Thanks Mrs keyser soze (talk) 04:14, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

I did a revert because you replaced a neutral source with a poorer quality one, and frankly, the only trivia that matters is that it's the tallest building in Montana. I don't really see any particular pride in saying that it's taller than anything in Fargo. I'm frankly rather tired of the breathless hyperbole that characterizes that entire article on Billings, it reads like it was written by the Chamber of Commerce. This is an encyclopedia and should be written like one. Montanabw^(talk) 15:31, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

Oh, my...that is a pretty breathless article. ETA And may have an issue with "borrowed" content in one section. I just added a note the talk page. It's sort of cited, but for something of that length (and exact wording use) it should be set off as a block quote of some sort. Didn't have time to check the rest of the article, but just that one bit is disturbing enough. Intothatdarkness 14:27, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Looks like the entire history section is possible copyvio (or at the very least an incredibly poor citation job). Yuck! Intothatdarkness 22:00, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

The fact that you do not even want to attempt to engage in civilized dialog has my blood boiling so I will save this for another time and perhaps another place. But I must say the source I cited was Emporis they are highly respected in the world of architecture. All the architects and designers I work with in Denver use it. The source you cited was skyscraperpage a fun little trivia page also reliable but not half what Emporis is. I don’t know anyone in the real world that uses skyscraperpage for anything.

Mrs keyser soze (talk) 03:04, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

The real point is really quite simple: The whole article is very weak and it's weak because most of the lead editors throw a conniption fit like this every time anyone dares to question the latest copy-and-paste copyvio they took from another web site. This is wikipedia, and every time you edit, it says, "If you do not want your writing to be edited, used, and redistributed at will, then do not submit it here." Be as pissed as you want, if you don't think my above comment was "civilized dialogue,"

then you haven't been on wikipedia very much. Blunt is civilized, if it hurt your feelings, sorry, but if you really think I give a rip whether that building is the tallest building in Montana or in a four-state area, I don't. Only in Montana do we even bother to go "oh wow! We have three skyscrapers in Billings!" Montanabw^(talk)

17:16, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Well, this is rather interesting, I guess. I'm wondering why I haven't been dragged into this.

TheNewKarl (talk

) 01:26, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Feel free to be dragged in, Karl! You made comments on the article talk page that suggested that you and I are kind of in the same place on this one, (i.e. not particularly fond of editing in places where making changes to others' stuff gets your head bit off), but I'm just a bit on the feisty side or else too stubborn to not argue! LOL! Montanabw(talk) 15:52, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Well, I never realized people could get so protective of an article, but I've never turned down a good, stupid internet fight. (Same person, my name change went through) ALH (talk) 07:17, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

I think Sara goth is sincere in wanting to improve the article at this point. I'd say dive in and see what happens. I'm all for improving the article, however it gets there. Montanabw^(talk) 17:02, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

I can help some with history and tone...things like that. Gearing up to be busy in my neck of the woods for the next couple weeks, but I'll help when/where I can. Intothatdarkness 22:11, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

Bravo Montanabw and ITD! I tried to help out on the Billings article recently and got skewered royally for it. I won't go near it now and suggest others do the same. Let it stay a piece of crap! PumpkinSky talk 22:15, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

We bit back and someone else started slapping things around for mass copyvio problems. The result appears to have been an attitude adjustment on the part of one of the harder-working editors and the arrival of about three new editors to help. I think if we all nibble a little it will get better, the problem was mostly one person who shows up here every few months, then leaves again. Montanabw^(talk) 22:23, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

...compared to dog colour genetics. For example, dogs have both dominant and recessive black (compared to only recessive black in horses) and apart from the D locus there is at least one barely known (but definitely existing) diluting factor. Add to this that different breeds can have same colours called five different names, of which three are standard or breed specific names for other colours... Sheesh. And breed colour standards. No double dilute creams in horse breeds that accept (or even prioritise) single dilutes is easy, you can breed your buckskin to a bay, avoid breeding weird looking blacks/dark bays together, not much fuss. Dogs on the other hand. Take Great Danes. There are only 7 generally accepted colourations: fawn (yellow with black mask -- although the breed standards of FCI and UK don't require a mask), black, blue (dilute black), black-base brindle with black mask, black-base harlequin, black with "Irish" white spotting, black harlequin with the same spotting. UK doesn't allow mantle black (but mantle harlequins are apparently ok because the spotting isn't that obvious on them :P -- breeders are even said to strive after "clear-front" harlequins i.e. mantle harlequins.) All non-mantle dogs are expected to have no white markings. Even if we assume the simplest possible gene pool to produce these seven coats, the breed has to carry all of the following:

• A locus y (sable, to allow pheom. coat for fawns) -- no w or t (for wolf sable and black-and-tan pattern), a (recessive black) is of no consequense
• D locus both D and d to allow both undiluted and diluted black
• E locus M (eumelanin mask) and E (no mask, normal eumelanin) both occur in the breed -- no G or e (no grizzles or recessive reds/yellows occur in the breed)
• K locus all three of K, br, + (called k or y depending on source) -- to allow dominant black (black in Danes is mostly or exclusively dominant), brindling, and normal pheom. for fawns
• H locus H and h (for harlequin and non-harlequin)
• M locus M and m (for merle and non-merle to allow harlequin expression -- harlequin is basically a "clean" merle)
• S locus S and i (for no spotting and Irish spotting)

The most obvious faults here is:

• production of non-harlequin merles -- absolutely unavoidable. Harlequins are never bred together because of the 25 % chance of homozygous merle pups (they are mostly white, often deaf, and sometimes have microphthalmia and other conditions). Merle is (obviously) dominant, Harlequin is also dominant, but unless one or both of your animals is homozygous for Harlequin (and good luck finding one, no DNA tests for you)... your litter out of or by a harlequin will be pretty likely to have merles. Hh Mm (harlequin) to Hh mm (het carrier) would produce 38 % harlequins, 50 % self (het and hom carriers and non), and 13 % merles. Hh Mm (harlequin) to hh mm (non carrier) would produce 25 % harlequins, 25 % merles, and 50 % self (half het carriers, half non carriers). And these calculations don't even take into account the chance of brindle, blue or fawn harlequins... (Or blue brindle / bluemask fawn harlequins... given you would use black phenotype dogs for harlequins, those would require phenomenally bad luck :P)

Two are more excusable:

• production of non-self black dilutes: blue harlequins (accepted by the UK standard but unpopular), blue-masked fawns, blue brindles, mantled blues
• production of non-black harlequins -- both of these cases are not as bad because Dane black is dominant black (and it dominates brindle and fawn as well) so selective breeding based on phenotype takes one quite far and avoidance of dogs with fawn or brindle in their other offspring is almost safe.

Additionally allels in the S locus have been shown to be incomplete dominants, i.e. SS is self (possibly with tiny white markings), Si is likely to be "skimpy" Irish pattern, while ii is usually the "real" Irish pattern. Now that UK has disallowed mantle black, I wonder how their harlequins are going to be bred for mantle. It is quite possible that the breed actually also carries the piebald allele for the locus, so some of the mantled dogs could be homozygous SP and able to throw undesireable piebalds.

This makes me think of an equine breed where the only registerable colours were seal brown, frame buckskin, and mouse dun. Basically you'd be stuck breeding three separate gene pools, one of them is doomed to consistently produce non-registerable foals by definition, and two will throw the occasional recessive unless truly drastic measures are taken (i.e. DNA tests mandatory to prove homozygous genotype for brown/bay/black/dun or revoking registration of horses proved to be heterozygous for them)...

And don't let me even get started on cavy colours. They have some shared loci with dogs (A, B, E, S, Rn at least, most of these have mostly similarly functioning alleles), but then the dilutions, lord. P locus dilutes eumelanin in the eyes and the coat, the crazy C locus has at least five different alleles that have varying effects on eum. and pheom. and they have multiple incomplete dominance to boot. But the best part is that cavies don't have money in them so most research is not peer reviewed and is carried out with breeding experiments and pedigree analysis by cavyists themselves.

Yes I'm doing things in fi.wikipedia and intend to publish in here when the time is ripe... For now I'll vanish back into the deep shadows of my jungle... Pitke (talk) 11:10, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

LOL! You are correct that horse genetics are WAY easier! I think my head may have just exploded!  :-D Montanabw^(talk) 18:22, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

User:Ched <-- has flashbacks to the "Total Recall" (the original) movie.

Needledd blabber aside, I'm translating something for fi.wikipedia and need to know what a tail brace as in gaited horse tail setting device is. Google isn't being much of a help as all it finds me are either sites selling them, or images of the device on its own or (presumably) worn but as the previous looks to me like a series of tubes and the latter like a bunch of horses with unnatural tailsets, I thought I'd ask you. Oh and I also find a number of sites critisizing gaited horse showing for animal abuse, but apart from "stacking" they don't seem to be interested in explaining what the things they are up against are.

How does a tail brace do its job? Yes this is crucial to the translation :I -- Pitke (talk) 16:02, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

Oh and btw, big lick obviously has some idiomatic meaning, but once again, the Internet fails me. Sticks-and-wire explanation please? --Pitke (talk) 16:07, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

P.S. I know what "big lick" means when it comes to TWHs, I'm meaning any "general" meaning the words may have. --Pitke (talk) 16:07, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

• LOL! I'll let my non-horsey TPS crowd tell you if there are other meanings of "big lick" that I'm not aware of; I personally only know the phrase as referring to the exaggerated front leg action of the TWH with the heavy shoes and stacks. Colloquial or slang use of the word "lick" by itself, particularly in the American south or other rural areas, can also refer to losing, particularly in the context of fighting or being beat up; phrases like "I licked him," or "he took a licking," (or more colloquially "lickin' ") mean the person won and thoroughly defeated the loser. It can also refer to a young person being given corporal punishment as in "my dad gave me a lickin' for being bad." "Taking his licks" might mean accepting punishment. However, it can be used outside of violence to infer a very thorough defeat, "he really licked me at cards" "our team licked 'em at the big game." There is probably a better explanation in the Dictionary of American Regional English. A "lick" can also refer to quick movement, flames 'lick" at wood, an expert guitarist can play "hot licks." (or "cool licks" -go figure). No idea how any of this got to "big lick," but I'm guessing that's the quick movement definition is related, somehow. Maybe people on my TPS list who live closer to the south have additional insights. Montanabw^(talk) 18:21, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

Urban dictionary entries give the following meanings:

• brownnose (probably from the verb lick)
• "something that cost a lot, or more than expected." (sounds like it's related to the "beat" meaning)
• "acquiring a large sum of money in an unconventional, mostly illegal, manner." (sounds like it's related to the above meaning)
• "starting hand of 6 and a 9 in hold em poker" (they seem to agree it's from the verb lick, "for obvious reasons")

How any of these have anything to do with flashy ambling... beats me :P --Pitke (talk) 19:36, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

They need a RURAL dictionary! LOL! Montanabw^(talk) 20:44, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

• American Saddlebreds have a tail naturally set high, not as high as an Arabian, though. When I rode Arabs saddle seat equitation, I took some lessons with a Saddlebred guy who was pretty good to his horses, and though I saw some show prep, I didn't see tons. There are tail sets, used at the stable, and tail braces, used in the show ring. The people I've observed prepping Saddlebreds for a show class either put on the temporary "tail brace" images in catalogue showing attachment to saddle, I can't find a photo of one on a horse but it goes under the tail to hold it up and tail is tied in place over it, and/or if the horse carries its tail straight, I've also seen people just tie the tail back to itself with a shoelace when they take the tailset off. (see left hand photo) Then to hide it all, they put a fake tail or tail wig (sometimes called a "switch") over the top of the real tail, also tying it around the set to keep it all sticking up straight. Oh, and for an extra boost, many of them take a big gob of ginger paste and shove it up the horse's anus right at the last minute, which is illegal but hard to catch. Tail sets are basically a harness-like arrangement designed to make the tails of Saddlebreds and Walking horses and some show pony breeds like the Hackney pony. (I think most other gaited breeds show with natural tails) look like they are carried high, but in that weird sort of way. This is a tail set on a horse. They leave it on ALL THE TIME during a horse's show career, except when the horse is being ridden. This means the horse is always kept in a stall, too. Some Saddlebred and TWH barns I've seen have "tail boards" (not sure if everyone calls them that) in the stalls -- 2 x 6's set like a shelf at about horse buttock height to keep the horse from rubbing its tail. (Can't find a photo of a stall like this on google). The horse usually has a horse sheet or blanket on under the tail set harness to prevent rubs, like this. Basically, the thing is a glorified crupper that stretches the soft tissues of the tail so the tail assumes that upright position seen on this horse. It can be done without cutting the tail. Sometimes before setting the tail at home, they also cut or "nick" the muscles that hold the tail down so that it moves into the desired position faster, but they don't break the tailbone - that actually wouldn't work to get the desired effect. this message board has a lady explaining how its done and hear are more detailed instructions about tailsets. Removing the tailset will result in the tail - even a nicked tail- returning to a normal position within a matter of days or weeks. The horse can still move its tail, if it's taken out of the tailset, and in retirement swishing flies is not much affected. The chat forums all have a bit of the usual battle between hyperbole about it being "harmless" and hysteria about it being horrible. Montanabw^(talk) 18:21, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

• The rubber tubing stuff you saw is used on the feet, called "stretchies." They develop the muscles the horse needs to step high via, basically, resistance training. Here is an example. Montanabw^(talk) 18:21, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

I... saw no rubber tubing? I saw this (and its buddies), dubbed tail brace, look at that thing and tell me it does not look like a series of tubes :) --Pitke (talk) 19:36, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

Oh! I saw the word "tubes" and thought of the surgical tubing they use for stretchies. When I hear "tube" I think "plastic." LOL! Montanabw^(talk) 20:56, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

• Now, as to all of the above, there are plenty of pro and con views on the internet. Let's say on the 1-10 "mean to horses" scale, soring or
  horse-tripping being stuff that's a 10 and drugging sore racehorses at at least a 9, I'd put the whole tail-setting thing at about a 5, in that the ginger up their butt part is really nasty, but for the rest, it is not great for the horses to be cooped up all the time with this crap on them and I personally wouldn't do it, but, like the big heavy shoes, horses otherwise treated humanely usually retire healthy and can be retrained for other disciplines with no physical consequences related to the tail brace (as far as I know). Contrary to some of the more hysterical stuff out there, Saddlebreds don't have tails broken, they aren't sored, and their tails will go back to "normal-" the nerves aren't deadened or severed (at least if done right, there are always idiots). In the Saddlebred world, I have bigger issues with their breeding horses with severe hereditary lordosis and some of the just plain sicko training methods -- I've seen some real brain-fried Saddlebreds that got that way from abuse, but not from tailsets. And frankly, all breeds and disciplines have their dysfunctions and cruel tactics; some of the saddest horses I've ever seen are Quarter horses made to go around and around on a longe line for hours in the hot sun with their heads tied to their hocks in hock hobbles so they went in the old "peanut roller" look with their heads almost to the ground, shuffling along... Montanabw^(talk)
  18:21, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

Sweetness, I just asked for the method for a tail brace working well you provided me with that and a lot of stuff. It seems you needed to vent! :D But thanks again, I think I can manage for now. --Pitke (talk) 19:36, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

Bwahahahahaaaa! Montanabw^(talk) 20:44, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

Holeebejee. Let me say that again. Holybejee. So what did I take on? Rollkur. Super controversial topic, most sources available are blogs (or very curt, OR very PC). A Wikipedian's dream! NOT :D

I ended up getting so steamed up I had to draw an illustration just to get a usable pic. It'll go live tomorrow I think, and I'll probably pimp it everywhere. Yes, in need of a bit of shoulder now. Can I borrow yours pretty please? --Pitke (talk) 22:29, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

Shoulder offered. I can help, we need to improve the en.wiki article

draw reins. Oh yes, my deah, preaching to the choir, preaching to the choir! Montanabw^(talk)

22:58, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

Pic is live. I found a metric ton of additional stuff, mainly papers, on hyperflexion/rollkur/whatever, and am thinking of taking a few days off the topic entirely... I'm also not keen on translating the article just yet, mainly because I don't want the added trouble of updating double for every addition I find, but also because I'm hoping to DYK... Perhaps I should start by trimming rollkur over here of some of its almost-two-years-uncited parts... 9v9 Is DYK expansion measured by the prose or by the code btw? Pitke (talk) 19:14, 29 August 2012 (UTC)

Oh, and a printed source like that book would be VERY welcome too :) --Pitke (talk) 19:15, 29 August 2012 (UTC)

Oh, and to clarify, I DO mean take time OFF rollkur, mainly because I'm concerned I'll unwittingly litter horse tack and hyperflexions all over my fashion plates for school... 8D Not that I don't have a habit of highly dramatic poses anyway but in any case... Oh and time with friends/family is always good when dealing with potential animal abuse. --Pitke (talk) 19:19, 29 August 2012 (UTC)

Keep what's there, citation is needed, but the data is sound. Google translate sucks at Finnish or I'd do it myself... Montanabw^(talk) 19:20, 29 August 2012 (UTC)

If it's sound then why isn't it sourced? I'll be checking the English version for things the Finnish one might be lacking, but if I can't find sources for it, it will stay out. Even if we forget the controversy, I feel like aiming high with the article quality. Definitely trying for GA in fi.wiki and B class here, perhaps even higher if sources remain plentiful. --Pitke (talk) 19:35, 29 August 2012 (UTC)

Mostly because I'm sufficiently lazy that I don't go answer every {{cn}} tag that people put on the 3000 articles on my watchlist! :-D (Yeah, 'my bad) That and, on en.wiki, animal abuse issues can become a battleground so fast that it makes no sense to take anything about them past B-class anyway because someone will try to derail it with POV pushing. (phooey) Montanabw^(talk) 20:55, 29 August 2012 (UTC)

We'll deal with the first couple of loudmouths in the old-fashioned way and apply for prodection after that ^.^ --Pitke (talk) 06:32, 30 August 2012 (UTC)

I edit on the

charreada

. The "loudmouths" can go pound sand, they're taking on an NPOV pro ... (grin)!

Hi Montanabw. I reviewed William Robinson Brown for DYK and was wondering if we might want to hold it for the centenary of the founding of the Maynesboro Stud. I see that it is being celebrated on September 15[1], but was unsure if that was the actual 100 year anniversary of the founding. Thought I'd check in with you and see what you thought/know. Great article, by the way. Gobōnobo ^{+ c} 05:51, 30 August 2012 (UTC)

I would be OK holding it for a month, in fact, that would be perfect! I cannot find a source with a specific date. Given the nature of a horse farm, they were buying animals for a couple years and somewhere in the process, sources give us 2012, Brown probably decided to put up a sign and give the place an "official" name!

The Wikipedia:Contributor copyright investigations/Vanished 6551232 CCI is down to its final 25 articles. If we can tackle one a day each we can get it done in a week, and two a day will get it closed by the end of the weekend. Let's see if we can get this done and cut down a bit on the CCI backlog, we've been doing great so far. Wizardman _{Operation Big Bear} 18:29, 31 August 2012 (UTC)

Nice to finally see another one closed. :) --Wizardman _{Operation Big Bear} 04:32, 1 September 2012 (UTC)

Hooray! Kudos all around Montanabw^(talk) 18:57, 1 September 2012 (UTC)

Alas, it looks like the ItsLassieTime CCI will be a hard one to crack. Socks plus high-volume diffs plus offline sources equals probably the most difficult CCI out of all of them. It would take many very dedicated users to even make a dent in that one. Wizardman _{Operation Big Bear} 02:13, 2 September 2012 (UTC)

It was in a para, cited at the end (source NY Times article). When you broke up the para a while ago, this sentence got orphaned, separated from its parent para. Churn and change (talk) 23:44, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

I knew it had been sourced originally! Thanks for finding my brain! Montanabw^(talk) 20:42, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

Hello dental floss tycoon, I saw that article pop by with a warning, "Tag: possible cut and paste move or recreation)". Turns out it's a copy of Cat Creek, Montana, which has seen some problems in the past. I don't know much about that beautiful state so I'll leave it to the experts. Happy days, Drmies (talk) 20:09, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

I truly do not get what is going on with that. (Why does anyone really care about a wide spot in the road...?) But thanks for the heads up. Montanabw^(talk) 20:46, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

Well, in the city I live in we all pretend to care about the city we live in... Drmies (talk) 22:13, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

Except I don't live there (grin). In fact, hardly anyone does. It really IS a wide spot in the road. Unless there is a merry prankster who lives there, I cannot for the life of me figure out why this article is a vandal target. Montanabw^(talk) 22:19, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

An open ref-tag ate up most of the text. But even with that fixed, there seemed to be issues with ref-tags; so I decided to leave it alone for now. Churn and change (talk) 00:39, 12 September 2012 (UTC) Hm. It was OK yesterday; I must have screwed up something when I did my last round of copyedits... will fix that bit. Montanabw^(talk) 17:26, 12 September 2012 (UTC)

I went ahead and fixed it, and ce-ed some stuff. During your ce, an open ref-tag popped up. Somebody trying to fix it added a {{reflist}} at the end, making things worse. Churn and change (talk) 17:34, 12 September 2012 (UTC)

Looks good now, I'm tweaking your changes, some nuance is needed, though my style is always open to improvement. Montanabw^(talk) 18:47, 12 September 2012 (UTC)

I've had a look through the Varian brothers article as well now. Footnote #32 wasn't linking to the entry in the References because there was no year provided in the {{

Fatuorum

20:46, 12 September 2012 (UTC)

Dang templates. I probably will tweak the lead before I put it up for GA; I'm probably going to send up W.R. Brown first, anyway. Montanabw^(talk) 20:53, 12 September 2012 (UTC)

Dumped the info on the article's talk page. Will start pulling stuff in from the reliable sources. I think the overall picture of his personal life is clear. However, it is strange his first wife seems to have vanished into Internet obscurity, though their son, George, seemed to have stayed part of the family. Will look at Sigurd now. Churn and change (talk) 19:03, 14 September 2012 (UTC)

I suspect that Sigurd is going to be more fun, he was more the "people person." May find some things via his son Jack Varian, owner of the V6 Ranch... Montanabw^(talk) 19:22, 14 September 2012 (UTC)

Panyd^{The muffin is not subtle}