Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)/Archive 116

Upon reading about the Wikipedia dispute resolution process, I have discovered that although there are many venues for resolving content issues (such as

• ANI is not suitable for persons seeking friendly, moderated dispute resolution, as it is largely ruled by mob.
• RFCU is about to be closed, because the latest DangerousPanda controversy has shown the process to be rather unhelpful.
• ArbCom is only for the most serious of disputes, and the majority of disputes do not reach the level of seriousness required to justify an ArbCom case.

Therefore, I propose that we create another noticeboard, similar to

• Kind of like
  WP:WQA? The community shut it down[3] because it was "doing Wikipedia, and it's editors, more harm than good." The community seems to want less bureaucracy, it keeps shutting boards down, and I have to admit, it has been for the better. Let me add, I would probably be against ANYTHING unless the dust has settled with RFC/U gone. How do we know what void to fill until we've had time to look at the void? Like with WQA, we just *might* be better with NO replacement. Regardless, it seems early to be worrying about it. Dennis - 2¢
  21:27, 10 November 2014 (UTC)
• I agree with Dennis... why not wait until after the RfC/U discussion above has had a chance to settle, and then see where we are? As the number of editors and admins declines, it's only reasonable that the number of processes and noticeboards should decline as well, as there are fewer volunteers and less volunteer time available to help at each one. 28bytes (talk) 22:04, 10 November 2014 (UTC)
  • I've made a suggestion above, a slight procedural change at ANI for cases that get too large. That alone should be sufficient to deal with the extra traffic, plus you don't have to "decide" if a case is ANI or more RFC-ish case when filing, it is allowed to grow and be dealt with in a more organic fashion. Unlike with RFC/U, it is a purely admin board, with tool use being an option. Dennis - 2¢ 16:28, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
    • I oppose expanding DRN, as my experience there is that it is a toothless process similar to RfC/U, and suffers from a certain bureaucracy that just doesn't work. Our best processes are the free form ones at AN/I and AN, and I support Mr Brown's suggestion above that we reform AN and AN/I to better serve the interests of community. RGloucester — ☎ 19:12, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
      • I understand you point about excessive bureaucracy and such, but is it possible to deny the fact that ANI is an uncivil battleground that is ruled by mob? If anything, AN and ANI need reform, like a couple of others above me have said. --
        Biblioworm
        19:25, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
        • I agree that AN and AN/I need reform (as I said), but they work better than any other processes we have. AN/I often works. It can be uncivil, but that is not a problem particular to AN/I. It can be dramatic, but that is not a problem particular to AN/I. At the very least, AN/I allows grievances to be voiced in public, surrounded by "uninvolved" voices, and does not require the strict formatting requirements of RfC/Us or DRN. It is efficient. In cases when it is not efficient, the appropriate thing to do is head to ArbCom. RGloucester — ☎ 19:28, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
          • The mob is at Wikipedia, and will follow the drama. It doesn't matter the venue or the process. The mob will go to where it is called. --Jayron32 17:23, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
            • The primary reason the mob rules at AN/I and similar places is that the people represented by the "A" in the name allow it to rule. HiLo48 (talk) 07:00, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
              • I think you have a complete misunderstanding of what the "A" people are empowered to do at Wikipedia. --Jayron32 12:32, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose creation of a new DRN. Let's review: Serious user conduct issues requiring admin intervention go to AN or ANI, issues the community is otherwise unable to resolve go to ArbCom. Non-serious user conduct issues that don't require admin intervention then have nowhere to go, which is a good thing because it forces users to either talk these things out or simply let them go, either of which is better than formal dispute processes which tend to escalate things and result in hurt feelings. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 21:12, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose, not because I think it's a bad idea per se, but because AN/I tends to fulfill this purpose, although with frequent drama, but that comes with the nature of the requests. It is possible to have civil discourse there, but quite often hostility is brought over from whatever talk page the fighting is already happening on, and I don't see how any new or existing (or historical) process or noticeboard could deal with that drama more efficiently. And frequently, admin tools are required to implement the will of the community, so AN/I is a more appropriate venue anyway. Ivanvector (talk) 22:32, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose: that's the same as WQA which was shut down. I didn't !vote at WQA, so I guess I can suggest the nom to try getting WQA back on with a new reform which would be something like he's proposing. Then again he has to watch for
  WP:SNOW. --lTopGunl (talk
  ) 06:41, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
• "ANI is not suitable for persons seeking friendly, moderated dispute resolution, as it is largely ruled by mob." - what makes you think any new forum would not be the same (or, at least, would not suffer the same failings, whatever they are)? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 12:47, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
  • I'm not really even watching this discussion anymore. However, the reason I think this would work is because the current DRN for content disputes has seemed to work out fairly well, because civility is required and enforced there. ANI, however, is the place where people go to seek revenge, turn discussions around people who bring up good-faith complaints, etc. All in all, it's just a terrible place to get any rational dispute resolution done, unless some people make themselves self-appointed ANI mediators (not a bad idea). --
    Biblioworm
    14:13, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
• Personally, I think most users are dissatisfied with the system as it exists after having had some experience with it, and there seems to be a significant push in recent months for changing procedures and processes. The fact is though that this is all happening a bit late, and should have occurred some years ago - but alas, it was rashness which led to procedures being enacted back then, and it's the same rashness which is now shutting them down (without first putting in effective systems in place). For this reason, I must applaud
  Biblioworm for at least recognising some part of this and making an effort propose some alternative to add to the extremely limited options available. That said, I fear Wikipedia history has shown that enacting this particular idea is likely to end up being no different to previous noticeboards (such as the sanctions noticeboard and WQA) which were subsequently shut down. A proposal which would lead to a mediation of conduct disputes - so that if mediation fails and the parties are simply unable to come to a resolution, then it proceeds further - might be worthwhile, but it again comes down to a lack of incentive by parties to participate in a meaningful way. It is a website after all. Ncmvocalist (talk
  ) 15:23, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

• The best venue for discussing user conduct is the user's own talk page. Go there, raise concerns politely and talk to them like a human. This usually works. No special noticeboards are needed. Taking a concern to a noticeboard is inherently hostile and almost always intensifies a dispute. Jehochman ^Talk 15:26, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose. I Agree with Dennis Brown and partly with Jayron32. Let the dust settle over the closure of RFC/U but creating another venue to fill the void would be a big mistake. Start looking how ANI can be improved by turning it back into an Admin venue, disallowing comments from uninvolved newbs, admin wannabes, and general admin haters and others with an axe to grind who have been allowed to exercise their mob justice there for far too long; disallow NAC, and please, NO self-appointed moderators from the peanut gallery. --Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 02:29, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

  Who, slow your roll bro... I agree with approximately zero percent of what you said there. Admins are not a special class of Wikipedia user with their own special playground where non-admins aren't welcome. No aspect of Wikipedia should ever be closed off to non admins. Having a few extra editing tools to protect the text of Wikipedia articles from vandalism and disruption does not grant admins special social rights at Wikipedia. The idea that the admin bit allows a small cadres of users to shut other users out of discussions at ANI or anywhere is abhorrent and I weep for your soul if you believe that. --Jayron32 02:36, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

  I was going to comment, but @

  Biblioworm

  04:08, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

Jayron32 (and I thought for a moment you were an admin), I'm surprised you didn't read what I said before launching into an almost 100% PA. You are fully aware that ANI is almost saturated by hardly relevant comments from the spectators' gallery. It resembles as much discipline as a Grade 6 classroom while the teacher is out of the room. If more admins (of the nice kind, naturally) were to risk having to duck the missiles and participate there more often, perhaps at least it could be turned into the decorum of a proper meeting and more judgement and less kangaroo justice would ensue. --Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 10:40, 26 November 2014 (UTC)

I am an admin. I have been for six years. And you have confused "personal attack" with "calling you on an opinion I disagree with". People who say you are wrong are not personally attacking you. It is fundamentally wrong to "disallow comments" from anyone. It is not a personal attack to tell you that. Of course, when you use derogatory names like "newbs" and "wannabes" and "haters", that isn't a personal attack, but when I use zero derogatory names, and tell you that you are incorrect, I am personally attacking you? Again, I can find no reason to agree with you on that one. Perhaps you need to learn that personal attacks is what you did using the words you did. So I say again, slow your roll and learn that you didn't earn the right to call other people names when you became an admin, you did not become immune from criticism when you became an admin, and when you make overt statements which are exactly against Wikipedia's open community ethos, expect people to call you on that and tell you why you are wrong. --Jayron32 20:28, 26 November 2014 (UTC)

• Support A little structure, like that used at DRN is exactly what is needed in (or apart from) ANi where currently anyone can post any unstructured unsubstantiated crap in total war against other editors on their personal enemy list. Legacypac (talk) 04:23, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose expansion of DRN to dealing with conduct issues. I created DRN some time ago, mostly for the perceived benefit of creating a many-to-many relationship between dispute participants and volunteers, working together to resolve disputes partially by mediating disputes, and partially by uninvolved editors giving their feedback on the issue. It has structure, which some perceive as bureaucracy, in an effort to control discussion to ensure the discussions stay productive. WQA had some structure but as it had no teeth (some may argue DRN needs teeth - my perspective is that DRN is a forum to resolve content disputes with the hopeful eventual result one all involved can live with, thus a binding decision is not necessary) and conduct disputes often end with one side getting "in trouble" - DRN and similar processes are not a suitable environment for these and this is the reason for my opposition.
  Help resolve disputes!
  00:57, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose what we have is alright, for dealing with user conduct. GoodDay (talk) 01:12, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose While I have no opinion (at least at this juncture) about what additional processes, if any, might help with conduct issues, mixing conduct and content issues at DRN will merely complicate resolution of the content issues. We have a strict practice there of declining to discuss conduct and that forces people to focus in on what they're really arguing about not on the emotional issues which complicate that discussion. Indeed, all content DR processes — 3O, DRN, and MedCom — refuse to take on conduct issues for that very reason. Don't make things worse trying to make them better. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 21:35, 29 November 2014 (UTC) PS: My comments only reflect the concept of adding conduct issues to the existing DRN, not creating a new DRN for conduct issues, about which I have no fully-formed opinion. — TM 21:40, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose. I disagree with the early assertion that DRN is toothless or overly-bureaucratic. It's not perfect, but it's worth maintaining in its current state. It at least offers disputants the chance to work out their content concerns under impartial, competent supervision. But this is a format designed for content and substantive disputes, not personal conduct issues, and is not the proper infrastructure for resolving such conduct issues. —
  talk) (contribs
  ) 01:19, 30 November 2014 (UTC)
• ? I have no idea what RfC/U is. Please define abbreviations the first time they are used in a thread. To do so is standard practice in scholarly discourse. Kdammers (talk) 06:06, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

I suggest we close down Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)/Persistent proposals, a sub-page of this page. Looking thru it, it seems to be where good proposals go to be forgotten and die. That last post to the page was back in January and the vast majority of it is much older. Specific proposal:

• All discussions currently there are either archived, moved to a stand-along proposal page, or moved to an appropriate page for revival
• The page is marked historical
• The page becomes a directory of what was once discussed there, linking to wherever the discussions went.

If this idea gets consensus, we can discuss what to do with the discussions currently there, but not until there is agreement to do this. Oiyarbepsy (talk) 00:41, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose – Persistent proposals that lack the support of the community's consensus will undoubtedly fail. This is simply how things go.

A proposal is not good if it persistently fails for good reasons.

Furthermore, we don't need to be having constant revivals of proposals like "Ban anonymous editing" and "Make administrators elected and serve terms", in my opinion. Tharthandorf Aquanashi (talk) 02:11, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

@Tharthan: Persistent proposals should not be confused with WP:Perennial proposals, which is completely different. Oiyarbepsy (talk) 04:38, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose No compelling reason for this action has been articulated. "It's where good proposals go to die" is cute, but I sense the proposer doesn't understand the purpose of the page he wants to kill. I perceive the page as providing benefit that exceeds cost.
  Townlake (talk
  ) 02:27, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

I do understand the purpose - it's a place to move discussions to avoid having them archived, or a place to put them when pulling them out of the archives. The idea is that they can get discussed further as needed. Problem is, it doesn't work. The discussions get forgotten and don't get discussed further. Oiyarbepsy (talk) 04:45, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose per
  Townlake. This proposal is a solution looking for a problem. Whether it works or not is immaterial, nothing is broken, nothing needs fixing. --Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk
  ) 11:42, 11 December 2014 (UTC)
• This page doesn't seem particularly useful, I would suggest a new concept, a sort of repository of proposals and issues, for follow up, with their status (fully completed, partially completed, awaiting implementation, requires further discussion, in discussion, etc), with links to relevant discussions, and comments on the status of the proposal. Entries for addressed or hopeless issues would get archived. This wouldn't be just for proposals, it happens quite often that some issues are reappearing at VPP or VPT, despite not being perennial, but they are held up for various reasons. Cenarium (talk) 23:40, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

My suggestion is that we instead encourage editors to create a separate proposal page to work out the details to a point where it is ready for support/oppose voting. Such proposal often require one page to summarize the proposal and a separate page to discuss it. This is how the

Admin committee proposal made it here for voting, and it was an effective way of developing a proposal, even if it is rejected. Oiyarbepsy (talk

) 22:42, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

Yeah I's quite common. But the listing I suggest would be more to keep track of things, not discuss the things themselves, there are so many things that come up repeatedly, not just proposals but also technical issues like what links here. A central repository where we have the relevant links would make it easier to know the history, status and next steps for those. Also, I support closing down this subpage due to inefficiency. Cenarium (talk) 08:40, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

• Support - Well I'm about to make a lot of people happy <sarcasm>...., Until now I never knew the sub board even existed and by the look of things it's rarely ever been used - and the board history proves my point - Seems from 2010 onwards the board's simply became redundant & no longer needed. –Davey2010 • (talk) 02:09, 12 December 2014 (UTC)
• Support - It's only gotten 11 edits this year and only 2 were actual comments on proposals. At one point it went almost 7 months with no edits. It appears most people (myself included) basically forgot about it in 2009. It's designed for discussion, but there's no one there to discuss anything. If a proposal needs an extended discussion, people can just create a separate page for it. Then we can have something like Cenarium's idea to keep track of them. Mr.Z-man 03:33, 12 December 2014 (UTC)
• Support Inactive discussion pages are fine in many places, but not at the Village Pump - the idea here is to have discussions that are visible and active - that one is neither. – Philosopher ^{Let us reason together.} 00:54, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

This RFC is a proposal to give administrator status to all editors with one year of registration and 3000 mainspace edits. Robert McClenon (talk) 22:28, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

Comment from the Wikimedia Foundation While we appreciate the concept behind this, and encourage the original proposer to continue to iterate on ideas, at this point, the Wikimedia Foundation will not endorse this suggestion and will not implement it in the unlikely event that it should reach consensus. For legal reasons, we require RFA or an RFA-identical process for access to certain tools (deleted revisions among them). I thank Robert for the proposal and thank everyone who participated in the debate below, but I'm afraid that this one is a non-starter for the WMF. Philippe Beaudette, Wikimedia Foundation (talk) 21:02, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

The tools should not be a big deal. So give them automatically to users who satisfy some minimum bar, for example 1 year of registration and 3000 main space edits. The only good argument against this is the risk that some of those people will turn out to be abusive. This risk is not a problem for the following reasons: 1. Some admins already are abusive, and because there are so few of them it is hard to keep them in line, more and more diverse admins would make it easier. 2. the current process specifically is aimed at recruiting people interested in power because of the insane amount of obstacles they have to deliberately plan a strategy to cross to get the tools. By making it automatic we will get more admins who are not primarily interested in power. They will be the ones who can keep the abusive ones in check. User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 18:02, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

• Another way to get the same result would be to let it be contingent on continued mainspace editing so that any month you dont make 250 mainspace edits you lose the tools the following month - regaining them only once you start editing again.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 21:58, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

This is a

WP:PEREN. That said, assumptions #1 and #2 come with absolutely no statistical or factual support. --Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk

) 01:37, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

Holy spacegoats, Batman!

365 days after that policy is implemented, probably to the minute, the block logs will explode.

Mind you, we could always implement compression. The string "Eric Corbett" repeated 135 thousand times wouldn't take up that much space. Andy Dingley (talk) 01:47, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

• Support in principle, but not sure I agree with the specific numbers involved. Like Kudpung, I have concerns over removal of the tools; if we implement something like this, we'd need to implement some sort of desysop procedure; for users that abuse the tools we should perhaps have some sort of 1-year reset on their timer; or something like that. But I think that if we made the tools less precious, we'd have less people bitching (inaccurately in most cases) about admin corruption and abuse. 1 year feels right; I'm not sure if 3000 is a good number or not, maybe higher? But in general, making it easier to get adminship AND easier to get it taken away would be a useful thing in most cases. Most studies show that we only have about 3000ish "regular" users anyways, most of them I would trust with the tools absent any specific reason not to. Anyone who doesn't give a reason not to should have them; it was how it was done "back in the day", and perhaps we need to get back to that. --Jayron32 01:48, 23 November 2014 (UTC)
• Comment - Clearly, this is going nowhere, but I just wanted to throw out another concern that may not yet have been considered ... this could potentially allow for COI editors/POV pushers/paid advocates, etc. to lurk for a year, and then all of the sudden have admin tools ... that is obviously bad. Go Phightins! 01:52, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

As if that is not possible now. The point is that it doesnt matter if there are bad apples with tools if the ratio of good apples is much higher. That would be the opposite of the ratio that the current system produces.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 02:10, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

'Good intentioned users outweighing the bad' works great as a description for normal, autoconfirmed, editors but I really don't think it applies to admins. The potential for doing harm when you have access to the extra tools is much higher. Sam Walton (talk) 17:25, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

Why wouldn't it also apply to admins, if it applies to autoconfirmed editors (who in this case would anyway have to establish a documented track-record of 12 months of Wikipedia success)? Were not all admins editors first? Surely you're not suggesting that becoming an admin corrupts one's soul such that simply being able to access Wikipedia administrative power will compel a new admin to misuse it? Remember, it's the current RfA process that encourages only those editors with a craving for power to pursue it. Azx2 08:38, 5 December 2014 (UTC)

• Strong Oppose for way too many reasons to list. With apologies to Jimbo, Adminship might not be a "big deal," but it is not a minor one either. In the wrong hands the tools could become an instrument for wreaking havoc. The OP grossly underestimates the potential harm that could be inflicted, even without malice, by misuse. I don't even want to contemplate the mess a handful of determined saboteurs armed with the tools could create. I'm sorry, not everyone can be an Admin. This is a candidate for my top ten list of worst WP suggestions. -Ad Orientem (talk) 17:14, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
• I think this would be quite interesting to just set up a test wiki somewhere, implement this, and see how it goes. Obviously you'd need to expand the bureaucrat position and stewards, to make sure that bad admins are desysopped, but even just say-a 5 day trial for editors when they reach that mark, and then taken back away, would serve as a good benchmark for RfA and how they would perform as a real admin. KonveyorBelt 17:26, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

Yes, exactly the change would also mean that desysopping would become easier and much more common for minor abuses.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 20:23, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose – Admins not only have tools for special types of 'edits' to the project, which can be undone by other admins if something went wrong. They also have access to deleted content, which can have been deleted for various reasons. Some of these require that only trustworthy users get access to the material, since handing out data is something that can't be undone. How to determine trustworthiness is a difficult question, but just the number of edits and age of the account are hardly enough. — HHHIPPO 19:54, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
• Strong oppose per Hhhippo and Kudpung. I also think that this could lead to some people doing constructive mainspace edits for a year just so they can get the tools, and then cause major and detrimental disruption to many parts of Wikipedia. With people doing this to get the tools to use them in bad faith, they could also edit the admin-protected page that determines if ClueBot NG is on or off, and they could let tons of vandalism slip by with that. Sorry, but I think that this wouldn't really be beneficial. -Fimatic (talk | contribs) 20:00, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
• Comment - I like the idea of allowing certain functions to be more widely permitted. I'm not myself sure blocking and deletion are among them. One of the comments above, about how admins are allowed access to deleted information, is particularly troubling to me, as it would basically make some really problematic BLP violations much more readily available and possibly circulatable. With some clarification of such details, though, I think it could be workable. John Carter (talk) 20:18, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
• Comment Seems to me that all the opposes are based in simple lack of good faith. The same kind of lack of good faith that has frequently been used as an argument against democracy with the pretext that "common people can't handle the power". People should be considered trustworthy users untill they provide evidence to the contrary. And the argument that some people would lie low and then wreak havoc is along the same lines, denying hundreds the benefit of the doubt out of fear for what a potential minority of abusers might do. Simply not a very wikipedian argument I would say, more of an old aristocratic way of thinking. User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 20:27, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

• I don't think the proposal is without merit, but, unfortunately, I also think we have had even recently some editors of several years experience (I think one of them may even have been a sysop) revealing they were socks of previously banned users and not being caught. Telling some (not many, but some) individuals that "all you need to do is spend one year and 3000 edits to be in a position where you might be able to, well, create hell, seems to me to be maybe too tempting to some people. Maybe. Granted, with a fairly quick and low level of desysoping, we would probably catch most of the problem admins faster. But probably only most. The apparent almost absolute predictability of the adminship, even without even the minimal "review" we sometimes give through RfA today, could well wind up attracting more of the wrong sort of editors to the project than we already have. I really can't assume good faith of people when I tell them, "Oh, yeah, here's the vault. Lockboxes with diamonds and securities everywhere. Sorry, I gotta pee. You promise you won't take anything while I'm gone, right?" and without knowing better how quickly the desysoping could be implemented and any damages undone I have to have some doubts. John Carter (talk) 21:18, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

The presence of bad apples among the editors and admins is an argument *for* this reform not against it. We already have admins who ought to be banned users, but who are not for various political reasons. And just for the way of prediction what sort of problems did the socking banned users you mention actually create with their socking? Not a whole lot as far as I can see. They certainly did not cause "hell" or any irreversible damage. So I entirely fail to see what the problem would be with having faith in our users' ability to behave untill they prove otherwise. Especially since even when they have proven otherwise they frequently reform when given a second chance (or when taking that second chance through a sock account). User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 21:50, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

• Strong oppose as an editor who doesn't have the toolset and has been here over three years and has 3,438 article space edits, 26,911 total edits on enwp, and 27,974 total global edits on all projects. It's not about the amount of time or the number of edits made. It's about the user's need for the tools to carry out tasks the community wants taken care of and the volunteer is interested in. — {{U|Technical 13}} ^{(e • t • c)} 20:47, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
• Horrible idea Do you know how many undisclosed paid editors we have here? A good number have lasted over 3000 editors without being exposed. Recipe for disaster. Oiyarbepsy (talk) 20:52, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

And why would it be problematic if they have access to the delete and block tools? Deleted pages ca be recreated when there is consensus to do so, and blocks can be undone.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 21:19, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

• Strong Oppose This is absolutely the worst idea that I have ever heard. Do you wish to destroy Wikipedia? Even if you claim that you do not, it's quite obvious that that is what this would lead to. It has nothing to do with aristocracy, but more with "Do you want this site to fall apart"? There is absolutely no way that this would work, full stop. Tharthandorf Aquanashi (talk) 21:03, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

The paranoid and hysterical hyperbole is certainly entertaining. The site by the way *is* falling apart, partly because of a lack of admins and too many bad admins to the good ones. User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 21:17, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

I don't disagree with you in that the site is starting to fall apart. However, it looks to me like you're making a proposal that you don't even realise the effects of. Just because one extreme causes a problem does not mean that the opposite extreme is the answer. It's quite obvious that doing what you are suggesting would destroy the encyclopaedia. I'd give it a year before the entire site collapsed, and (if it recovered) would have to be put back together again slowly. Within that time, many people would likelily lose faith in the encyclopaedia, and abandon it.

Nevertheless, if you wish to call anything relating to halting chaos "aristocratic", then I can't stop you. I will tell you, however, that that is a clear misapplication of the term "aristocratic". But I suppose you can do what you wish. Tharthandorf Aquanashi (talk) 21:28, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

What would cause this alleged collapse with in one year. And what makes it so obvious that you need not provide actual arguments in support of your prediction? I predict the opposite. Within one year people will no longer be complaining of administrative abuse, the backlogs will be gone and editors will be coming back. And yes claiming that the only way to "halt chaos" is by keeping power in the hands of a small ruling elite is the very definition of aristocracy.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 21:45, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

The collapse would be caused by a horde of advantageous vandals. The reason I felt that there was no need for elaboration on that is because I thought we understood generally the patterns of vandals. As others said before me, we have plenty of editors that have ill intent in mind that simply have lain low for years, and slowly amassed edits. We can't give an exact figure for that, due to the nature of the matter, but nevertheless that would likelily be the bane of Wikipedia if we enforced this proposal. Tharthandorf Aquanashi (talk) 22:12, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

No, you need to be more specific. Exactly because you are claiming something is obvious you need to be particularly well able to explain why it is obvious, and what mechanism will bring it about. How exactly will all these "vandals" (as far as I know most vandals are IP editors who make three childish edits and then leave) being about the collapse through their calculated and concerted use of the block and delete function? Do you really believe that wikipedia is besieged by hundreds of sleeper accounts of vandals just waiting to find a way to bring down wikipedia once and for all. How do you make that belief consistent with AGF in your day to day editing? Do you really believe that the only defense against these sleeper cells of vandals is the exclusive use of block and delete functions by a small corps of editors selected specifically for their willingness to endure abuse and humiliation in order to rise to "power"? User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 22:19, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

I can't really myself offer a good and satisfactory response to the last question, any more than I can say I think someone who really wants to be in political office is a prime candidate for such office. It would help to know the nature of the de-adminship process though. Another detail, and it is admittedly just a detail, which might be useful would be to know how if at all people who may have, stupidly, broken a rule in a minor way to lose sysop privileges but have either learned from the mistake or, in some cases, the lack of awareness of changed guidelines or policies (assuming such happens), might or might not be able to have the privileges restored to them. (Disclaimer: Personally, I would in no way consider having the admin privileges I have requested be taken away from me restored to me, and there is nothing in the above which should be taken as indicating some sort of ulterior motives on my part). John Carter (talk) 22:29, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

• Here's an answer to the last question: No, I don't. But not believing that the current system is perfect and believing that your suggestion is better are two different things.

About day-to-day AGF: assuming good faith towards any editor you encounter until shown otherwise and assuming that bad faith editors don't exist are also two different things. — HHHIPPO 22:51, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

Who is assuming that they dont exist?User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 22:53, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

I was answering to How do you make that belief consistent with AGF in your day to day editing? I don't think that has to be made consistent since it is already. — HHHIPPO 23:03, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

• Strong Oppose at present when the only procedure for desysopping is the ArbCom. Oppose if there is some procedure implementing for desysopping. Just because there are a few administrators who are abusive or corrupt does not mean that we should eliminate all advance scrutiny of whether new admins will be trustworthy. I agree that some sort of change to RFA is needed, but this is not the answer. Robert McClenon (talk) 22:32, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

The logical procedure for desysopping would be the simple consensus among the admin corps. User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 22:55, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

• Extremely strong oppose - are you crazy? Apologies for the hyperbole, but this is a terrible idea, not just because of the possibility for serious misconduct and damage to the project, but also because the WMF will never go for it. Admins have access to tools which enable looking up users' private information (IP addresses and physical locations, among other things) and The Office have stated that they will not support granting these tools to any users unless they are vetted by the community in a process similar in rigorousness to the current RfA. More experienced users can provide more background on this. Perhaps a case can be made for automatically granting some of the maintenance-level tools (deletion, etc.) but automatic granting of the current admin toolset is a terrible idea and is never going to fly, no matter how high you set the bar or how effective a desysopping process we might come up with. Ivanvector (talk) 23:00, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

  As far as I know only checkusers have those tools.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 23:25, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

  @

  the CheckUser right can do that. There are approximately 40 such users, and if they do make such a lookup, their action is logged, even if they do nothing more with it. But if you have somebody's IP address, anyone - even those that are logged out - can find out which country you are in, sometimes down to city or town level. You can try it yourself: look at the contribs page for any logged-out user, at the bottom there is a box beginning "This is the contributions page for an IP user"; in that are some links. Try the five from WHOIS to (Alternate). But Geolocation by IP address is not an exact science, see User:Redrose64#Where am I?, or put in your own IP address in the User: box at the top (even if you never edit logged out), click Search, and try those five links at the bottom. --Redrose64 (talk

  ) 00:46, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for clarifying. Clearly I've got the details wrong, but it does appear to be true that the WMF wants to have an RfA-like community vetting process to appoint(/elect/whatever) admins, or they won't go along with it, so this automatic-granting-of-rights proposal just won't go anywhere. I don't remember where I read this or I would link to it. It's also just a bad idea - some users (maybe most users) shouldn't be admins ever. Have a look at some controversial topic like

pseudoscience - if all those users had admin rights there'd be nothing left but a smoking crater. Ivanvector (talk

) 15:43, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

• I oppose this even more than Flow: Not only is this a non-starter, failing the WMF's requirement that admins undergo community scrutiny, it is a surefire way to cause havoc. I'm sure even the proposer can think of users of sufficient tenure under this proposal who they would not want to be admins, and having to weed them all out individually would be a nightmare. Seriously? BethNaught (talk) 23:09, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?  Philg88 ^♦talk 23:10, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

That is the exact problem that this proposal solves. IF there are enough of them they can do it themselves, democratically. As it is now, noone does.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 23:20, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

I might personally think that making the process not entirely "automatic," but basically automatic, maybe at some higher levels, might have a better chance of gaining acceptance. Some sort of defined disqualifiers, like maybe being blocked for two months in the first year, some consistency to the edit history, like not 90% over two months in really minor edits like adding categories and few if any major ones, and maybe, unhappily, some sort of defined committee which could blackball candidates if good reasons were presented to them for doing so, openly or covertly, might address some of the concerns of making it automatic. It would still benefit from having a bit clearer indicator of what qualifies as grounds for desysoping. John Carter (talk) 23:27, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

• It is clear that this will be a snow closure, but I must say that I am more than a little surprised and dismayed by the apparent complete lack of any belief in the concept of self governance among my fellow wikipedians. I will say that as long as it is inconceivable to you that ordinary users could make good admins and organize wikipedia without turning it into a madhouse, then the current defect RfA process will remain in place. And as long as it does so, it will be due to your own anti-democratic thinking, and you will have the exact governance you deserve and consequently no right to ever complain about the admin corps.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 23:28, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

  Comment - The proposer criticizes our anti-democratic thinking. Wikipedia is not a democracy. The WMF owns the Wikipedia servers, and, as some other editors have mentioned, the WMF demands that there be some scrutiny of the issuance of administrator privileges. Also, the proposer's hostility toward criticism of his idea (saying that if we do not support this idea or some variant, we will have no right every to complain about the admin process) is not helpful. Robert McClenon (talk) 23:36, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

The commenter's addressing me in the third person is not appreciated. Wikipedia is not a democracy, but it is based on democratic ideals about the abilities of everyday ordinary people to collaborate without external hierarchical direction. I am not hostile to critique, but that is not what is being offered. What is being offered is hyperbolic outcries that refuse to even entertain the possibility that something good could come from letting people govern themselves. That and statements about my mental health. Neither of those are actual critiques, since a constructive critique at the least explores the pros and cons of a suggestion before dismissing it.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 00:20, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose, though I'm flattered - 9yrs experience, over 95,000 mainspace edits-. GoodDay (talk) 23:31, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
• Support if all requirements are met, it needs first to be tested on a broken WP, i think the German Wikipedia would be best, we also need a well working
  Watson API for realtime desysop.Mion (talk
  ) 23:49, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

• The idea of giving the proposal a test run on one of the more problematic wikipedias seems to me a very reasonable idea. I'm not sure how to propose it for one of the less functional wikipedias, being only active on the English one myself, but think some of the wikipedias even more clearly broken than this one might not be seen as having as much to lose by as many people. John Carter (talk) 23:59, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

• Support The idea has some merit. If we start with a limited number of edits (an easily trackable and reversible number) and supervision before expanding to full privileges, its really not that different from taking our chances with new Admins. By virtue of having the tools doesn't make you bad or good, nor by virtue of having the title voted on by a largely uninformed audience make you all knowing. It is your behavior. Used well, it could do good. We need a way to get rid of the rats, whether they have the power now or will get it in the future. Its like any politician. Some go for the power to do good, some don't. Trackinfo (talk) 00:54, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
• Without getting too much into
  WP:BEANS territory, the main admin tools (block/delete/protect) are not really the most dangerous of the admin tools in the wrong hands. Certain things could be done that could cause sitewide disruption and possible real-world consequences. And there are some things that an admin can do that are not easily reversible. Admins are not politicians. They have no more role in governance than any other user. They are janitors, and with that job comes the master key to the building. RFA is broken, but RFA and "no review whatsoever" are not the only options. Mr.Z-man
  01:16, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

I would like to point out to Maunus that "ordinary users could make good admins" ≠ "ordinary users should just all of a sudden be made admins". I don't think that it is being claimed that the former is untrue; rather, that the latter claim is problematic. Tharthandorf Aquanashi (talk) 03:10, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

• Moot oppose This a pointless discussion. THe WMF have already said that they require users who are granted the tools to go through a community approval process (currently RFA). No approval process = no buy-in from the WMF = no chance of this ever being implemented, even if it passes an RFC (which, let's face it, ain't going to happen anyway). Let's go and do something else, instead of having this unnecessary debate. Yunshui ^雲_水 10:11, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
• Moot oppose Despite this not having any chance of happening per foundation standards for viewdelete I will give me opinion anyways. Automatic adminship is like automatic trust, a very very bad idea. Trust aside nothing in the criteria will demonstrate someone is competent to use the tools.
  Chillum
  19:19, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

Wikipedia is founded on the principle of automatic trust. Competence and trust should be initial assumptions only set aside when proven wrong.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 20:16, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

Again, Maunus, "ordinary users could make good admins" ≠ "ordinary users should just all of a sudden be made admins". Just because it is probable that a user who has contributed much to Wikipedia has good intentions in mind, we can't just place all of our bets on that belief and have each and every user that has met the criteria that you aforedescribed be automatically made admins. Tharthandorf Aquanashi (talk) 22:18, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

Your silly equation is a strawman. And meanwhile yes, just because editors have contributed positively that is more than enough to assume that they have good intentions. Indeed we even assume as much before they even start contributing which is why we allow them to contribute in the first place. So yes we can safely place our bet that users who have demonstrated a will to contribute positively to wikipedia will also be able to use the admin tools positively. Indeed it is absurd to think that the Rfa process is better at sorting the "bad apples" from the good ones, than simply allowing them to have the tool and then take it from them if they turn out not to.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 22:58, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

I have never claimed that the RfA process is adequate. What I will say, however, is that the RfA process is scores times better than what you are proposing right now. Tharthandorf Aquanashi (talk) 23:52, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

Yeah thats like...your opinion, man.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 00:34, 26 November 2014 (UTC)

It is actually a very common opinion.

Chillum

04:18, 26 November 2014 (UTC)

• (
  39
  00:37, 26 November 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose. Oppose 3000 mainspace edits and 1 year of registration is already the absolute minimum requirement I expect for a candidate to bring with them to even enter our current RfA process. I can't imagine anything of greater danger to the Wikipedia project than handing out admin tools based just on an extremely low level of participation and tenure and without any scrutiny whatsoever on whether they are suitable or the job. Ironically, I believe even Wikipdiocracy is managed without giving the moderator tools to 90% of its regular participants. --Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 10:22, 26 November 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose since the eminent result would be all pages getting deleted, and everyone getting blocked, thus preventing the pages from becoming restored. An editor's competency has to be evaluated in one way or another prior to be handed the mop set (speaking of which, it seems as though the current method for even that is up for debate right now. There's too many discussion forks happening right now all over Wikipedia.) Steel1943 (talk) 20:47, 26 November 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose This would never get accepted by WMF. They would not give the power to change site wide settings and be able to change almost anything on Wikipedia to anyone. Lor^Chat 22:57, 27 November 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose - I don't want to be an admin. Admin tools must be used by trusted, willing editors only. --NaBUru38 (talk) 17:53, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose Dangerous and crazy idea.
  (talk)
  07:07, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
• Snow oppose - Someone with just 3000 mainspace edits would probably fail an RfA in the first place. I'd consider my own mainspace edit count to be borderline in many RfA cases, and I have nearly three times that figure at my last check. Secondly, it is incredibly easy to rack up a few thousand edits in a year, make sure they're all completely uncontroversial, and then when you have the admin tools, go berserk. Such an idea is hardly radical; after all, we have enough issues with long-term sockmasters as it is. Also, good content creation skills do not mean you are suited to adminship automatically, and to think so means you have gone well past the point of being delusional. This is also a fairly perennial proposal, and one that the WMF would veto. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 03:09, 30 November 2014 (UTC)
• Snow oppose - There is huge consensus that the process for adminship needs to be eased, but this proposal to completly remove review of candidates is a non-starter. Alsee (talk) 00:31, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose per all the above. Adminship may be no big deal but it shouldn't be given out automatically. either. There's just too much potential for problems. Ca2james (talk) 23:51, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
• Weak oppose--I don't think it should be automatic, per se, but I think this is much closer to where we need to be. I still think that editors who have it should actually WANT it, and I think there should be some evidence that they would be using it with some productive intent (like a history of patrolling, or RfX involvement). But, yet, minimum requirements. The bulk of the effort should be on the removal side, not the appiontment side. Anyone can have it as long as they don't abuse it. If they abuse it, it gets yanked.--Esprit15d • talk • contribs 18:04, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose. Terrible, terrible idea, would slip the problem from the frying pan into the fire. The reason there is so much concern over the admin process is because of a widespread belief that persons with temperament and maturity issues are becoming admins. This would exacerbate the problem. Coretheapple (talk) 18:14, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
• Very strong oppose Firstly, I am not an admin by choice. It would be rather strange to overwrite my personal choices by some wikiruling. Secondly, I have seen to many long term conflicts going on here. It would be a horrible idea that the conflicts around Yugoslavia, Kosovo, Cyprus, the Caucasus, Japan/Korea etc. could be fought by people with admin (i.e. blocking)rights... The Banner talk 18:27, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
• Support - The onerous and intentionally-discouraging RfA process seems designed to maintain consolidated administrative power in the hands of a small cadre of people who are no more honest, noble or service-oriented by their natures than any of the countless hard-working, diligent editors who would happily take on increased administrative responsibility w/in Wikipedia if there was a reasonable means for them to do so (and I say that as someone who has never seriously contemplated subjecting myself to the abuse of RfA, let alone gone through with it). By assuming their good faith and extending increased "trust" to editors who cross a certain participatory or contributive threshold w/o having caused drama, a greatly expanded administration could be created that would decentralize basic block/delete power and in doing so break the stranglehold of the cynical, corrupt, inefficient administrators who currently fail day in and day out to manage the workload necessary for sites like the German Wikipedia not to be "broken" (as someone notes above). No evidence has been presented thus far by the people who "Oppose" this proposal of exactly how "Hell will break lose" or why the OP is "crazy" for this bold, but entirely logical suggestion. Many logical fallacies, however are manifest in the comments of the reactionaries who prefer the status quo. Azx2 00:46, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose' - No way, just because someone ran AWB/Huggle/Whatnot a year ago and did some cleanup and racked up some edits does not mean I trust them with tools that can be disruptive to the entire project. — xaosflux ^Talk 00:51, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
• Support the basic idea, for the rationale that is provided by
  Brooklyn telephone directory" to govern the USA. I think that is about right. Something to make the WP admin group larger, and less of a self-solicited group, would be quite useful. Happy to interact in the future on other proposals of this type. So if someone starts a discussion, feel free to invite me to consider and join in. Cheers. N2e (talk
  ) 04:01, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose per se This proposal could invite more problem admins because although you mentioned there were aready some admins abusing their privileges, they could further abuse them, and on top of that the 3000 edits may not have any merit. They could be vandalism for all we know. Sam.gov (talk) 04:33, 5 December 2014 (UTC)