Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)/Archive 188

I think that in order to make sure a Wikipedia article still meets the criteria for a good or featured article, they must be reevaluated on a regular basis in order for an article to be still considered a good/featured article. The reason why I am proposing this is because there are some articles that have been good/featured articles for more than 10 years and haven't been reevaluated since promotion. Examples: Calvin Coolidge (featured article since 2007, never reevaluated) and Battle of Barrosa (featured article since 2007, never reevaluated). I have no opinion regarding the amount of time an article should be reevaluated and I welcome your opinions on what it should be. I think that a process like this will make sure that only the best articles are good/featured articles. Interstellarity (talk) 21:35, 12 March 2022 (UTC)

Are you familiar with the work being done at

WP:URFA/2020? Pinging SandyGeorgia for her views.--Wehwalt (talk

) 22:46, 12 March 2022 (UTC)

@Interstellarity I do hope you're therefore willing to help out with this!!! Nick Moyes (talk) 22:53, 12 March 2022 (UTC)

@Wehwalt and @Nick Moyes: Hi everyone,

I was unaware of

WP:URFA/2020 when I posted this. I'd be willing to help review articles and determine whether they are worthy of their featured articles. Does anyone know if there is an equivalent for good articles? Interstellarity (talk

) 23:12, 12 March 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for the ping, Wehwalt!

@

WP:URFA/2020 and the two links above. Please keep in mind if you first review an article that one of the goals is to engage editors willing or able to improve articles; we don't want to scare off editors with the idea that older FAs will suddenly all be defeatured, so reading the instructions and understanding the goals and expectations is highly recommended. The more help we get, the sooner we can get through the Very Old FAs.

I am unaware of anything similar for all 36,000 + GAs. SandyGeorgia (Talk

) 00:13, 13 March 2022 (UTC)

For GAs, there was Wikipedia:WikiProject Good articles/Project quality task force/Sweeps - back in 2010. Thanks. Mike Peel (talk) 10:33, 13 March 2022 (UTC)

Flattered that the Signpost article was referred to 🙂

talk

) 03:31, 14 March 2022 (UTC)

Oppose - This proposal, while given in good faith, entirely misses its mark. A rule, for the sake of process alone, creates its own set of problems (requiring resolution) while resolving nothing (where no problem exists). A GA/FA'S lack of reevaluation is not the sign of problems, having been reevaluated almost certainly is. In theory, every time an article is viewed, its assessment and standing undergoes a concurrent review and the lack of maintenance tags and discussion nominations (including assessment reevaluations) confirm that the current ratings (when viewed) are correct. This system works, and has worked to date; there's no indication that it needs to be changed.--

I would like to know if there has been any past discussion regarding merging these two pages. If so, can you please point me to the link that discusses this? If not, I would like to know if this would be a good idea. My argument for this merge is that this will simplify the need for redundant pages. Other online encyclopedias like Scholarpedia merge their about page and the article about itself while Citizendium has separate pages. Interstellarity (talk) 21:49, 13 March 2022 (UTC)

They're not really redundant—the project space page is targeted more to prospective editors to encourage them to become active editors and includes policy/guideline summaries that would be out-of-scope for the mainspace article. Mz7 (talk) 23:10, 13 March 2022 (UTC)

Wikipedia:About needs a ground-up overhaul. The main problem is that Wikipedians, when presented with a topic, tend to write encyclopedia articles. But about pages shouldn't be encyclopedic—they should be much shorter, for one thing, and they should focus on communicating our mission and helping users get the most out of the site. Take a look at the Wikimedia Foundation's about page—ours should be more like that. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 02:09, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

I've noticed several issues with this project, namely at WT:Vital articles/Level/5. First off, this page is overwhelmingly huge at nearly 500,000 bytes, meaning that I'm having trouble both navigating the page and loading the editor. Trying to edit this page, even with a fairly powerful computer and fiber internet, basically turns my computer into a waffle iron. Secondly, the amount of user interaction that exists in this project is basically nonexistent, leading to discussions from four years ago open with less than four replies. Trying to get things accomplished in this project is impossible. Thus, I propose two solutions:

1.) Split the pages into other subpages (such as WT:Vital articles/Level/5/Music or WT:Vital articles/Level/5/Actors)

2.) Allow editors to make their proposed changes if six months have passed without a response. My reasoning is that if no one cares to join the conversation, then no one would object to the proposed changes. Obviously, I expect some opposition to this second proposal, but I'm interested to see what solutions are suggested in its place.

Thank you, Why? I Ask (talk) 08:31, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

I'm not entirely sure the proposals will be effective at fixing the issues with how we manage Vital articles. I wonder if something could be organized similar to the

Please ping me!

12:09, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

I think this discussion is better held at Wikipedia talk:Vital articles. WikiProjects which don't affect the rest of the project are usually given latitude to decide for themselves how they'd like to proceed. isaacl (talk) 15:43, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

Which format should we prefer to clarify the surname of biographical subjects with non-English names: hatnotes, explanatory notes, or something else? {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 05:15, 3 February 2022 (UTC)

Background and rationale (surnames)

For many years, Wikipedia used

As far back as 2011, concerns have been raised repeatedly about the hatnote approach (discussions: WP:VPP 2011, WT:MOSCHINA Feb. 2020, WT:HATNOTE Sept. 2020, and others). There are two main issues:

1. Emphasis: A hatnote is arguably the single most prominent place in an article after the title, since it appears above even the first paragraph and is emphasized through italics and indentation. However, the information in surname hatnotes is not all that vital compared to the essential biographical information in the first paragraph. Eastern name order, while an interesting factoid, does not relate specifically to an individual person. Further, because we refer to a person by their surname throughout an article, most readers would likely pick it up even if it were not spelled out for them. We normally
   undue weight. The same principle applies to layout, where trying to include too much leads to banner blindness
   (as we see on many talk pages). Overall, the information in a surname hatnote is not as essential as the information elsewhere in the lead and does not seem to warrant a prominent placement if avoidable.
2. Fittingness: Per the WP:Hatnote guideline, hatnotes have a discrete and clearly defined purpose, which is to help readers locate a different article if the one they are at is not the one they're looking for. Under this core definition, using them instead for surname clarification is a misuse which muddles their purpose. It seems that (as with emphasis), the choice to use surname hatnotes way back in the early 2000s was likely not a deliberate preference, but rather an awkward shoehorn of information that did not easily fit elsewhere at the time.

Surname footnotes address both these issues: they reduce the visual emphasis of the clarification, while still preserving it for any interested readers and converting it to a form that fits its purpose. I therefore propose that we adopt a preference for surname clarification via explanatory footnotes. If passed, this would permit interested editors to transition articles to the footnote format, but it would not override local consensus at any article where editors decide to keep the hatnote format (which could be noted in a hidden comment). Relevant guidelines would be updated to state that footnote clarification is preferred but hatnote clarification may be kept if desired. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 05:15, 3 February 2022 (UTC)

• Footnote preference, as proposer. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 05:15, 3 February 2022 (UTC)
• Footnote exactly per nom. Levivich 05:24, 3 February 2022 (UTC)
• Footnote a.k.a. Support proposal per nom. I'll also go farther and ask to deprecate surname hatnotes community-wide (if this extra bit doesn't pass, then the proposer's version is still very good). In this case, they would be phased out gradually as editors get around to updating articles.
  These hatnotes I find to be quite bizarre, giving
  WP:TRHAT section of HATNOTE especially applies here. Explaining naming conventions, regardless of what it is, is not so important a matter that it deserves to have the most prominent place in an article. A footnote (or failing that, anything else) serves the same purpose much better.

  The existence of these has also occasionally been used to justify arguments to add hatnotes for other personal information, such as gender pronouns. However, current practice is that any time such in-article clarification is done, a footnote is used, and it works well for these cases. (Example: ND Stevenson.) If that can work for gender pronouns, it can definitely work for surnames. Crossroads ^-talk- 05:48, 3 February 2022 (UTC) updated Crossroads ^-talk-
  05:29, 4 February 2022 (UTC)
• Not hatnote per OP. No great opinion on the alternative, though I think I would recommend footnote if deemed necessary locally as advisement and not as general expectation. It probably just isn't necessary at all to point out which is the family name, also per the OP. --Izno (talk) 06:10, 3 February 2022 (UTC)
• Currently not voicing a preference, however I oppose the "preference" wording used in the proposal. If a decision is made that hatnotes shouldn't be used based on the arguments provided, then a a local consensus shouldn't override it. So if consensus arises for footnotes, I support complete adoption of it. This would also make it possible to very easily convert {{Family name hatnote}} (which has 66719 transclusions) without needing to check with the local editors of each page. --Gonnym (talk) 06:25, 3 February 2022 (UTC)
• Not footnote I'm not particularly vibing with the idea of adding to 66000 biographical articles an entire level 2 Notes subheading consisting entirely of "a. ^ This is an East Asian name. The surname is {{{1}}}." Folly Mox (talk) 07:19, 3 February 2022 (UTC)
• Allow all depending on level of likely confusion. I like the historically widely used hatnote approach because it sets out the conventions used in an article without impacting on the body. A footnote is the minimum that is necessary, as it is non-obvious which name ordering is used. This is especially confusing with Chinese compound surnames like Sima or Ximen: the family name of
  Cixin Liu needs to be reassured that Liu Cixin is the same person (so there is some navigational use for the hatnote). —Kusma (talk
  ) 10:48, 3 February 2022 (UTC)

  For

  MOS:BOLDLEAD, which is how we normally handle topics with multiple names and I think is sufficient here. For a name where one order goes to one person and a different order goes to another, I'd support a hatnote. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk

  19:09, 3 February 2022 (UTC)

  Any decision here applies only to hatnotes about surname clarification. So Lu Ping would keep the hatnote For the Taiwanese writer, see Ping Lu. but the hatnote In this Chinese name, the family name is Lu. might be relegated. Certes (talk) 19:36, 3 February 2022 (UTC)

• Footnote or other non-hatnote. A hatnote is too prominent and usually applies to the entire article rather than to a detail such as surname clarification. Certes (talk) 11:27, 3 February 2022 (UTC)
• Allow either per Kusma. Stifle (talk) 12:00, 3 February 2022 (UTC)
• More information, please Hatnote Both of the examples given, the family name comes first, so at first glance it looks like the hatnote is worthless, that people should just know that in a Chinese name the family name is first. But I don't think that is the case. In the discussions, editors have already mentioned that sometimes it is unclear which name is the family name. I think to be fair, you should list examples of articles with hatnotes where the family name does not come first. This, I think would give editors trying to weigh in here a better snapshot of the impact/value of these hatnotes. I reserve my vote until I understand this better. StarHOG (Talk) 14:39, 3 February 2022 (UTC)

Okay, the article on Raul Neto sealed the deal for me. Thank you Kusma for providing several examples. This along with Mathglot's comments about wanting to know up front how to read an article and have a person's name in your mind correctly. The Antonio Arias (referee) article is also a good example of why we do not want this information as a footnote. It is only the brevity of this article that the reader is given information about the naming almost immediately. In a longer article, that footnote would be lost or never referenced by your average reader. I am now strongly for using the Hatnote to explain to readers the naming convention a person uses. StarHOG (Talk) 03:22, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

• Raul Neto has a hatnote and Antonio Arias (referee) a footnote about naming conventions with given names appearing first. Certes (talk) 14:45, 3 February 2022 (UTC)

  The last name doesn't always come first with Chinese name, especially with people who have lived elsewhere. There's Shiing-Shen Chern (family name is Chen) and the wonderfully weird Lowe Kong Meng. Category:Members of Academia Sinica is a bit of a mess with both naming orders widely used. —Kusma (talk) 15:14, 3 February 2022 (UTC)

  For some non-Chinese examples, consider Gloria Macapagal Arroyo or Arantxa Sánchez Vicario. —Kusma (talk) 15:18, 3 February 2022 (UTC)

• Footnote (ie Support proposal per nom). Makes perfect sense. MichaelMaggs (talk) 14:59, 3 February 2022 (UTC)
• Hatnote per Folly Mox, and the fact this is pretty important information you shouldn't have to dig for when you need it, and names don't often need other hatnotes so it's fine to use it for a non-disambiguating purpose for people. 107.242.121.51 (talk) 18:29, 3 February 2022 (UTC)
• I think
  talk
  ) 19:38, 3 February 2022 (UTC)

  {{Correct title}} is the other notable exception to WP:HATNOTE, but it's much less common – <1k pages – and something that we will hopefully one day no longer need once future software improvements are made to MediaWiki. I'd rather reign in the purpose of hatnotes than let it broaden out to the point of meaninglessness, since allowing it to broaden has costs to readers: with a discrete purpose, it's safe for readers who know they've landed at the right page to ignore hatnotes, whereas if we allow them to become a catch-all place for important information, that no longer holds true and opens us to a bunch of sure-to-be-messy discussions about whether to have hatnotes for things like pronouns (see Crossroads' !vote above).

  With that said, I do acknowledge that fittingness is more of a secondary consideration than emphasis. The main reason I'm putting this forward is the emphasis concern, and the fact that clarifications would also fit better purpose-wise with footnotes is just an added bonus. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 21:01, 3 February 2022 (UTC)

  The article title would be the same regardless of which of the names is the surname, so I fail to see how this is consistent with the purpose of handling title confusions. The "correct title" template does 'alter' the title, so that placement makes sense - and is ideally temporary until MediaWiki is improved as noted by Sdkb. Crossroads ^-talk- 05:29, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

  The possibility of title-related confusion exists because readers are not unlikely to come to those pages from somewhere that used a different order. A hatnote is a convenient place to ameliorate that confusion.

  talk

  ) 00:00, 5 February 2022 (UTC)

• Allow either per Kusma. There are cases where it's genuinely confusing enough to merit a hatnote, and other cases where it isn't. (t · c) buidhe 21:03, 3 February 2022 (UTC)
• Not sure yet; leaning 'something-else' (Summoned by bot) – I take the point about the original purpose of hatnotes, and that's somewhat persuasive, but otoh, presenting information clearly to the reader trumps just about anything else in my book, and if a majority of surveyees say hatnote makes it clearer, then I'm fine with that choice, too. Otoh, not sure footnote helps as much as I would like. I think a major part of the calculus for me, is I *want* to know how to properly identify someone, and I don't want to have to hunt for whether the Singaporean politician is Mr. Lee, Mr. Kuan Yew, or something else, and a corollary of this is that I don't want to feel like a fool after getting halfway through the article, and realize with embarrassment that I've had it backwards in my mind up to that point. That would be the fault of the article, not my ability to understand, and I would resent it. So, I'm basically okay with any solution that avoids that, and I think at this point, I'd like either a clear statement in the first or second sentence ("Lee Kuan Yew (surname: Lee) was a Singaporean lawyer and politician...") or a usage such as "Mr. James", "Prime Minister Martin" that makes it clear by implication, without necessarily stating it outright: ("Lee Kuan Yew was a Singaporean lawyer and politican. Lee was Prime Minister from 1959 to 1960..."). So basically, just get me the information by sentence #2, don't make me hunt too hard to find it, and I'm good. I'm not categorically opposed to having the surname in a hatnote just because hatnotes were initially designed for disambiguation, because it satisfies the "clarity" issue; but if a just-as-good solution offers itself, I'd vote for the latter. Mathglot (talk) 01:19, 4 February 2022 (UTC)
• something-else Perhaps a |surname= added to {{Infobox person}}. Tvquizphd (talk) 03:29, 4 February 2022 (UTC)
• Allow all per Kusma, specifically including Mathglot's something-else. On the one hand I'm sensitive to the slippery slope argument made by Crossroads, the last thing we need is a list of hatnotes at the top of articles. However I also agree with those who want to make sure that it gets communicated right away, and I'm conscious that getting it right - and communicating it right - matters. To inadequately purvey this info is to continue biases already rampant here and elswhere. What to do, then? Let's allow a variety of practices to flourish here and if the benefits of a particular approach eventually become clear we can prescribe/prefer/deprecate as needed. Retswerb (talk) 07:27, 4 February 2022 (UTC)
• Footnote, but use <ref group=note> to avoid it getting confused with normal references. Hatnotes are overkill for this - they should be used when there is potential for confusion with another article, not minor clarifications of surnames. Modest Genius ^talk 12:48, 4 February 2022 (UTC)
• Allow all There is unlikely to be a one-size-fits-all solution to this, and having options for how to handle it best per article is the best option. --Jayron32 14:16, 4 February 2022 (UTC)
• Against explicit preference for footnotes. The current practice doesn't fit well with the overall purpose of hatnotes, but I wouldn't like to see a shift from the misuse of hatnotes to the misuse of footnotes. Explanatory footnotes are used for tangential details, not for information that may be necessary to understand how to read the article.
  I would like to note that even though I disagree with the proposed solution, I don't question the existence of a problem, but that's part of a bigger issue that we need to tackle. The first sentence of a biography article will often contain a lot of details – nicknames, maiden name, spelling of name in native orthography, transliteration(s), pronunciation (in English or native language) – that create a difficult to parse thicket that stands in the way of readers getting to the bit that describes who the subject is. I think we need a dedicated space for that information: one that doesn't clutter the first sentence but is still prominent enough (the end of the first paragraph? the end of the lede? a new lede paragraph that's visually set off from the rest? a section of the infobox? a dedicated (info)box?....). Once that is done, and we have a space where readers will learn to expect all name-related information, then the content of those hatnotes will naturally fit in there. – Uanfala (talk) 15:34, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

  I agree with that problem statement, though I have no brilliant solutions. Footnotes seem less bad than hatnotes but I hope there's a better way. Certes (talk) 17:02, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

  Definitely a separate conversation to be had about this, I completely agree. Retswerb (talk) 09:31, 12 February 2022 (UTC)

• Hatnote ~ the footnote is a pain to have to scroll down to in order for important information ~ or, at most, allow all. Happy days ~ Lindsay^Hello 16:26, 5 February 2022 (UTC)
• Hatnote - the votes are leaning otherwise, and I assume that is because there are a ridiculous number of completely unnecessary hatnotes for names on biography articles that should be removed. Just because someone is from Asia doesn't mean they need a naming hatnote. However, when there is a reason that the name must be clarified, a hatnote is the correct way to do so. User:力 (powera, π, ν) 00:00, 6 February 2022 (UTC)
• Hatnote Understanding a person's name is quite important and so clarification should go at the top of their article, not the bottom. An infobox entry may be adequate and so we shouldn't be rigid about this. Andrew🐉(talk) 14:41, 7 February 2022 (UTC)
• Hatnote this information is too critical for a footnote, most of which don't get read.
  b
  } 21:43, 7 February 2022 (UTC)
• Hatnote much too important to have to go looking for it, and much too hard to explain and re-explain Spanish surnames, and way too many hispanic names that are first, middle and last name the same, so need the fourth surname as per Spanish language customs spelled out right up front. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:54, 7 February 2022 (UTC)

  @LindsayH@力@Andrew Davidson@Headbomb@SandyGeorgia, if you think that putting the information in a footnote would be insufficient emphasis, I'd urge you to consider @Mathglot's idea above to put it in the parenthetical after the name, where we already put name information like pronunciation and native language spellings, and to adjust your !votes if you'd consider it an acceptable outcome.

  I understand where you're coming from, in that names are an inherently important thing, but I think it's important to remember that in many cases (albeit not all), we can clarify a surname easily just by using it in the rest of an article, and we wouldn't want a strict outcome of "hatnote" here to prevent us from using other methods for the articles where they fit better. It's also worth remembering that anything is going to seem more important in a discussion where it's the explicit focus, but hatnotes don't just note the information alongside other things, they prioritize it by emphasizing a generalized note on naming conventions more than even an individual subject's nationality/occupation/birth date. No matter your preferred solution, I hope we can reach a consensus at least that that isn't ideal. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 22:12, 7 February 2022 (UTC)

  In hispanic names, the parenthetical just wouldn't make sense as part of the text; one's full name is Joe Bloe FatherLastName MotherLastName, and the parenthetical would take up valuable real estate in the middle of the first line to explain how hispanic surnames work. So our text would be cluttered with

  father's paternal family name, Mendoza is his mother's paternal family name, according to Spanish naming customs) ... it's just goofy to take up precious real estate for that. Hatnote does the job, is easier, and standard. SandyGeorgia (Talk

  ) 23:08, 7 February 2022 (UTC)

  Sandy, I believe this is not the issue we are trying to solve. In fact, Nil Einne addressed this confusion directly below. What we care about in this discussion, if I'm not mistaken, is not *really* what the surname is, but *how we are going to refer to Mr. XYZ in the rest of the article. In that sense, we don't care if "Mr. Lee" means that "Lee" is his surname or first name, we just care that in this article, we refer to him as "Mr. Lee", because that's what the sources do. Same thing with a Hispanic surname, Russian patronymics, or Sitting Bull; it doesn't matter which one is the surname, or if the term "surname" even applies at all.
  In your example, therefore, there would be no long parenthetical at all; in your Halverson example, the second sentence already solves this, and says: "The New York Times described Halvorssen as a maverick 'who champions the underdog...'" so now we know that he is referred to as "Halverson" in the article, and that's all we need to know. Mathglot (talk) 23:22, 7 February 2022 (UTC)

  Missing ping User:Nil Einne. Mathglot (talk) 23:29, 7 February 2022 (UTC)

  @SandyGeorgia, sure it could work. Here's that article with efn footnotes and here it is with a hybrid parenthetical/footnote format. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 23:24, 7 February 2022 (UTC)

  The first (footnote via efn) was so hard to see that I had to go look for it in the footnotes and then backtrack to see where you had placed the efn (meaning, a casual Wikipedia reader will probably miss it, or not go look for it). The second is just what I said in terms of convoluted and cluttering the first line.

  To Mathglot, consider a common issue (not in this case because they don't have a close relationship, but I digress); father and son do business or politics together and their article deals a lot with both of them and has to distinguish them. If is very common for mothers and daughters, and fathers and sons, to have the same name, and even the same middle initial. Then, per Spanish naming customs, we would refer to them in text as Halvorssen Mendoza and Halvorssen Vellum. The hatnotes are doing a good job educating readers about Spanish naming customs and how they are used in writing; I don't see a way around it, and I consider them a valuable aid to readers. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:46, 7 February 2022 (UTC)

  Hi Sandy, that's possibly a good use case for keeping the hatnote, it might help in that case. If this is a fairly common situation, can you link a few examples so we can see what they actually do now? I'm particularly interested in how they handle this in the body of the articles.
  But even here, I can see an argument for dropping the hatnote: partly due to banner blindness, and partly due to proximity: if I were reading one of those articles, I presume that the person named in the article title would be introduced in the lead sentence and paragraph, and I'm not sure how far down the same-named father would be introduced. I think *that* is where I would want to see the explanation; by the time I get there, I won't remember the hatnote (assuming I ever read it, which I might not if I saw a picture or a lead sentence with a bolded title in the first sentence letting me know I was on the right page). When they bring up the father, that is the point where I want to know who is who; if they use words like "Senior" in their culture, maybe that is sufficient; or pere, and so on.
  In the George W. Bush article for example, his similarly named father isn't mentioned by name in the five-paragraph lead at all; he first shows up in section #Early life and career as "He was the first child of George Herbert Walker Bush and Barbara Pierce." and by that time, the hatnote is a distant memory, if it ever registered at all. Perhaps you are talking about father-son pairs with identical names, not even differing by a middle initial; here, I'd like to see those links and see how the articles treat them now. See also Alexandre Dumas. Mathglot (talk) 00:20, 8 February 2022 (UTC)

  My memory won't cough up the example I am trying to recall of two Panamanians who got mixed up on Wikipedia; it will likely come to me when this discussion is over. But the George H. W. Bush example accomplishes same. Do a ctrl-f on the word son to notice how awkward the text is, particularly starting with the Appearances section. If those two had Spanish names, that awkwardness would go away, as we would have clear names for both: Bush Walker is the father and Bush Pierce is the son. Ah, but it gets better in this case, because Jeb is also Bush Pierce. So, this is probably as good of an example as it gets.

  Gow to move forward with this example: I believe the goal of this discussion is to reduce the number of banners at the top of the article per banner blindness. A different goal is to educate about Spanish naming customs at the very top of the article, without adding clutter to the text. My concern with removing the banner is that you remove something that editors creating articles in the Spanish-language realm will clearly have noticed and can see how to easily use, and serves to educate broadly about Spanish names. We would be replacing it with either a footnote or in-text clutter that offer the potential for inconsistent use. I am sympathetic to your goals and open to being convinced, but we're not there yet. Maybe there's a third alternative, that we could explore with the Bush Walkers and the Bush Pierces. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:50, 8 February 2022 (UTC)

  I understand what you're arguing (purely in the sense of "discussing") for, but i'm not sure i agree; i have read Mathglot's suggestion and, i'm afraid, in mine opinion that would be far more disruptive to the flow of the lead sentence/paragraph. To take the example given there, i think it is essential that we are clear that Lee is the surname, and just using it in the next sentence is not clear, especially and specifically because the name order is different from that expected by what is probably the majority of our readers; in particular with this name it rather clashes with expectations because "Lee" is sometimes a forename in English, so it has the immediate appearance of being over-familiar, and did i (and therefore probably others) not know i might try and change to what appeared to be a more formal and appropriate usage. As for the first suggestion with this example, putting "(surname: Lee)" immediately after the name is very interuptive (surely there's a word for that?) to the flow of the sentence and i would strongly oppose that. I recognise the argument that it's not what hatnotes are for, but...so what? It works and (if it's essential we use them only as intended) we can say we are disambiguating any confusion over the name. Happy days ~ Lindsay^Hello 13:15, 8 February 2022 (UTC)

• Footnote. There's lots of background information that is often absolutely crucial to understanding a biography. Why stop at naming conventions? Often there's far more significant background detail relegated to a wikilink - if you're reading an article on a Qin dynasty court official, a completely blank slate reader may well need to click multiple other history articles before they can really get it. A hatnote just isn't the right place for this; stick it in text (if the name is expected to cause unusual confusion / dispute) or in a footnote, same as all other relevant content. A hatnote simply isn't the right spot in the same way that a maintenance banner isn't the right tool for the job; hatnotes are for Wikipedia navigation, not explaining background detail. SnowFire (talk) 10:21, 8 February 2022 (UTC)
• Hatnote as it's an important detail which often explains inconsistencies in the article between people's full and common names e.g. why Spanish/Portuguese people have multiple surnames, and why we only use one of them to refer to them. Allowing any type seems sensible too, but footnotes will never be read. Joseph2302 (talk) 00:38, 9 February 2022 (UTC)
• Hatnote per basically all of the above. I don't need to repeat what everyone else already said. I don't object to footnote templates also existing for this purpose, e.g. to use at an article that already has a lot of hatnotes. And we don't need either for a lead like "A B (Chinese: B A) ...". But use hatnote by default.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  05:37, 11 February 2022 (UTC)
• Hatnote for now, as though there's the possibility of a better solution somewhere down the line that this discussion might lead to, hatnotes are the best we have for now. I feel that anyone advocating footnotes or presuming that readers will be able to work things out for themselves just by reading the article is confusing the average reader of English Wikipedia with the average editor, regarding their knowledge of MediaWiki's conventions, those of web pages in general, and their global perspective. When writing for a general natively English-speaking readership, I don't think of what I would understand, I think of what my parents or grandparents would understand. They do not know that Wikipedia has footnotes and that clicking the blue superscript characters leads to them. No matter how many times I explain it to them, they cannot remember that cultures other than their own, indeed all but a minority of the world's population, use naming systems other than <personal name> <family name>. They will read an article about an Icelandic person and be confused why the person is only referred to by their personal name, not by what they think is the person's family name. They will read an article about a Chinese person and be confused by why the person's name is shortened to what they think is the person's personal name. I will explain why they are mistaken, and they will have forgotten my explanation in a few days' time. These kinds of people need these things to be mentioned first of all, every time a name is not in <personal name> <family name>. Hatnotes are good at doing this (even if it's not their original purpose) because they at the same time visually get this information out of the way for people who don't need it, and it avoids making the first mention of the person's name even more complex. Tempjrds (talk) 19:12, 18 February 2022 (UTC)
• Hatnote. Long story short, hatnotes for this particular use enjoy a strong and longstanding consensus. The guideline on them should be updated to reflect this. – Finnusertop (talk ⋅ contribs) 17:54, 21 February 2022 (UTC)
• Hatnote While not perfect, at present this seems to best way to make it clear to our readers (many of which may not even be aware of Eastern-naming order) which name is the surname. At least for me as a mobile reader and editor, I would prefer a hatnote. I would also be opposed to adding something only in the infobox as not every last-first person article has an infobox. Link20XX (talk) 04:03, 22 February 2022 (UTC)
• Footnote per OP,
  WP:UNDUE weight to trivia. I really think that the best solution is to use a explanatory footnote, but just when it is necessary. Alexcalamaro (talk
  ) 22:09, 1 March 2022 (UTC)
• Hatnote I find the arguments against footnotes more compelling than the arguments for footnotes. To me, the argument over the wording of
  WP:NOTBURO. People have made various proposals to try and remedy this problem, like parentheticals and putting it in infoboxes, but these have their own problems and run into the same issue as the original proposal: the problem with hatnotes is bureaucratic not practical. The closest we get to a practical issue is banner blindness, but there's no particular evidence for that and other support arguments about undue prominence contradict claiming that point. Just rewrite the policy to fit the decade-old reality. Let writers use the efn surname templates if they like, but enforcing an artificial consistency at this point is premature. — Wug·a·po·des
  ​ 22:05, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

  I responded to the idea we should just adapt WT:HATNOTE to match usage above here. I don't see any contradiction in discussing both prominence and banner blindness—banner blindness by definition happens when too much is made too prominent. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 01:42, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

• Edit notice – This will probably disappear in the void of this conversation, but I don't think either solution is helpful. The reason this is even an issue is because novice editors (or anons, or otherwise) go and change the name, thinking they're correct. This group of people will almost certainly never read the footnote (which you have to "go out of your way to click"), and it seems very possible that they will ignore the hat note by clicking edit too quick or editing a section not near the top of the article. The only place we know they will go to is the editing screen, so we may as well put it there. Aza24 (talk) 01:56, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

  @Aza24, not lost in the void The reader-editor distinction is an interesting angle to look at this from, and the editor perspective might help explain why some above seem to consider this information so crucial. I think it does still have some value for readers, so perhaps a footnote-editnotice combo could be a possibility. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 07:19, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

• Footnote as proposed. While this is may not be a perfect solution, we should move on from hatnotes as they occupy an undue position for such trivial information. -- Ab207 (talk) 15:49, 6 March 2022 (UTC)
• Footnote. The current hatnoted-based system is very out of step, I think, with how hatnotes are meant to be used: for navigation. I find Crossroads's arguments very compelling as well. -BRAINULATOR9 (TALK) 19:12, 19 March 2022 (UTC)

Discussion (surnames)

A |surname= parameter could also be added to {{Infobox person}}. Or guidance should be given to note the surname under the template's "Notes" section. 71.247.146.98 (talk) 12:46, 3 February 2022 (UTC)

I agree that this information belongs as structured data in the {{Infobox person}}. Tvquizphd (talk) 03:25, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

Tvquizphd and IP, how would you want it to display in an infobox? Make a sandbox mockup if you'd like. I'm not sure how viable that could be as a main method, though, since infoboxes are already trying to cram in a lot of information, and

not all

articles have them.

If we're exploring alternatives, I think Mathglot's idea of putting it in the parenthetical is the most viable I've heard so far. The advantage is that it'd place the information in the body, in a space that's already communicating name info (typically pronunciation). The disadvantage is that we'd only be able to reasonably fit a very short e.g. (surname: Lee), which would cause problems for the more complicated examples like Raul Neto above or Vietnamese people like Phan Xích Long. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 03:42, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

• The idea of developing this as Infobox information is appealing. It would match the Wikidata P734 family name, which is present for cases such as Sima Qian, Gáspár Miklós Tamás and other interesting cases such as Jan Vennegoor of Hesselink (see also this on the latter's doubling), but seems to be omitted for patronyms that might be associated with Mongolian people,for example. Populating an optional line in Infoboxes from Wikidata could allow a gradual move away from the use of hatnotes and towards more structured information which might embed types of naming? AllyD (talk) 08:44, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

Perhaps it can display in parentheses after or below |name=. An example would be:

|name=Name (Surname: |surname=Surname)

To display

Name (Surname: Surname)

Note variable values are slanted as a coding convention.

Or a structured note under |Notes= can be used.

Also there is the issue of meta-templates & related templates based on the infobox. A look at Category:People and person infobox templates shows a bunch. 71.247.146.98 (talk) 13:49, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

@Retswerb: I appreciate you bringing up the topic of bias in your !vote. One angle to look at this from is that the hatnote convention includes some strong biases about what readers know and don't know. We would never (and should never) put a hatnote at John Smith saying "the surname is Smith", since we assume that readers are familiar with Western name order, but we also assume that they're unfamiliar with Eastern name order and need this explained to them prominently. Granted, on a practical level, this is English Wikipedia and our efforts to take a global perspective need to have some limit. But I think it's worth noting that one benefit of making the clarification less prominent is that it'd also make these names less marked, meaning that we wouldn't be assuming so strongly that readers have a Western perspective in which non-Western names are this exotic other. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 07:45, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

• Surnames in an unfamiliar position is probably the easiest name hatnote situation to solve. Other naming conventions, such as patronymics, or perhaps having no surname, seem more difficult to clearly imply through usage in prose alone. Is this proposal aimed at removing Surname Firstname hatnotes, but leaving other Family Name hatnotes in place? CMD (talk) 07:57, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

  @Chipmunkdavis, any naming convention hatnote can be pretty easily converted to a footnote: just take the text in the hatnote and put it in a footnote. The same general considerations apply.

  I think that it's important that we're able to handle edge cases in whatever system we end up with, but I also think we should take care not to focus so much on the most complicated instances that we lose the forest for the trees, as I see happening a little above. It's also worth remembering that this information is going to seem a lot more important here where we're hyperfocused on it than it will in the context of an actual article where it's one of many things to arrange in balance. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 08:09, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

  It does not make sense (and feels like a bit of the bias Retsweb mentions) to treat patronymics and single names as edge or particularly complex cases; they are established and regularly used naming systems. They might be unfamiliar to some or most English speakers, but they're whole forests in themselves. Framing a discussion as relating just to surname firstname order when it is intended to have a wider impact seems likely to lead to more confusion, not less. Footnotes may work for whatever the case is, but other suggestions above that were built in response to the framing of the question, like the "(Surname: Lee)" and the infobox surname parameter, will simply not work. CMD (talk) 08:24, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

  @

  too much infobox, I think a simple parenthetical "(Surname: Lee)" or “Triyatno (mononymous, born 20 December 1987)” would do. I’ll post on Project Anthroponymy to see if anyone there has ideas.Tvquizphd (talk

  ) 17:07, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

  I would not object to that. If it is done, perhaps the relevant wikilink could serve as the communicating text to the reader in place of the hatnote. CMD (talk) 17:59, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

Entirely a fair point! My personal take is that our general readership is probably unfamiliar enough with non-Western naming conventions that the value of pointing them out overcomes the detriment of marking them - but that's entirely an assumption on my part. Retswerb (talk) 08:08, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

The occasional Western surname also needs a note: Emile Smith Rowe (surname Smith Rowe) vs. Leo Stanton Rowe (surname Rowe). Certes (talk) 16:56, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

I'd welcome an explanatory note at Marion Zimmer Bradley. Never sure what end of the bookshelf to use for her books. —Kusma (talk) 18:28, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

• I'm slightly confused here. The opening comment etc refers only to surnames. But the template also deals with patronyms although for some reason we still have stuff Template:Malay name. Is this proposal only to deal with surnames? Also the opening comment claims "because we refer to a person by their surname throughout an article" but again that is not the case. We use whatever is the norm to refer to the person so for people without surnames this is often (but not always) their given name. Also we should not forget that even for people with surnames, name order can be more complicated than simple family name given name, given name family name e.g. Carrie Lee Sze Kei, Michelle Yeoh Choo-kheng or Daniel Lee Chee Hun. Nil Einne (talk) 06:45, 7 February 2022 (UTC)

  @Nil Einne: Yes, I can validate that confusion. In fact, I don't think this is really about surnames at all; I believe it's about how to refer to someone via a short name (if any) throughout the article, when we are not referring to them by their long, convoluted name, as in Sandy's example of Thor Leonardo Halvorssen Mendoza.
  Imho, we don't really care which is the father's name, mother's name or any of that; what we care about, is how they are referred to "for short". This is cleared up in sentence #2 of that article, and the answer is: Halvorssen. Who cares which ancestor bore that name? I don't. In such articles as importance would attach to knowing about their mother and father, because it's duly covered by reliable sources, than by all means, go into it in the body of the article, and even link our articles (not hatnotes!) about Hispanic surnames as appropriate. But I see no reason why the Thor Halvorssen (human rights activist) article needs a hatnote, and I don't care what his surname is. The #Background section explains in some detail his relationship to famous ancestors including a President Mendoza, and for anyone who's interested, they can read that, and follow the links. But all we really need to know about Thor Leonardo Halvorssen Mendoza's name, is that he is referred to as "Halvorssen" in the article, presumably because that's what the sources do. I don't see why a hatnote would be required at all, or even helpful. By the way, what is Sitting Bull's surname? Mathglot (talk) 23:41, 7 February 2022 (UTC)

  One more thing that occurs is that in some cases, the current family name template actually servers another purpose although I'm doubtful many readers understand this who didn't already know. If we take Chinese names like

  Chinese given names too (double characters is sort of exception I guess), it's a special problem with generation names because calling someone Hsien/Sin or Hsien Lee/Sin Chong (as may happen in the west, even if you put the first name as Hsien Loong/Sin Woon in the form) can be confusing when multiple siblings are involved as it's unclear precisely who you're referring to. (If you did want to use one character only Woon or Loong will me more appropriate.)

  This is mostly a problem with Malaysian and Singaporean given names as it's where the practice of rendering the two characters as two "words" with spaces predominates. Those from Mainland China generally follow pinyin and don't include a space; those from Taiwan and Hong Kong, and while not Chinese names, those from (either) Korea where there's a similar issue, generally use hypens. Those in Western countries mostly use either don't include a space or use hypens since they're aware of the problem if they don't.

  That said, the generation name parameter seems to be hardly ever used (those were the only 2 examples I could find with a space in the given name) and I think it's hard to populate especially without OR since not all 2 character given names include a generation name. Also as said, this is an issue which technically applies to all 2 character Chinese give names even in cases where it's not a generation name; and I'm very doubtful anyone reading our hatnote is going to understand this point if they didn't already know from the name.

  And there are plenty of other naming issues which can cause confusion which we do not clarify in each article. For example Karpal Singh was not Muslim and while his name may sometimes be referred to as Karpal Singh al Ram Singh the al is from a/l and is unrelated to the al in Arabic names. (Having trouble finding links talking about this now, but in the past, there were reports of people coming under special scrutiny because their passport rendered the a/l as al since / cannot be used in the name part of machine readable passports and assumptions were made that the al meant they were Muslim. I suspect this is one reason why that is no longer done [4].)

  Nil Einne (talk

  ) 00:30, 8 February 2022 (UTC)

  @

  Family name}} template when the mega-merge took place. There are 90 occurrences of the template that use param |suffix=. Mathglot (talk

  ) 01:05, 8 February 2022 (UTC)

  Just pinging User:Primefac to this discussion and proposal, as they were responsible for the family name hatnote mega-merge, and may have something to say either about the somewhat narrower issue in this discussion, or the larger one at the top of this proposal. Mathglot (talk) 01:28, 8 February 2022 (UTC)

  Taking into account Mathglot's comments, would a "commonly known as" property be more apt? Or is this making the issue even more convoluted? 68.173.76.118 (talk) 02:04, 8 February 2022 (UTC)

  As a reply to the ping - I genuinely don't care how this information is displayed (my prior involvement has largely been in standardising template usage and minimising maintenance burdens). If necessary, though, I'm happy to consult on the hows, whys, and "what ifs" so that others may make a better decision. Primefac (talk) 09:23, 8 February 2022 (UTC)

• Suggestion. Okay, this is going to sound absolutely buck-wild, so I am going to drop this radical idea and walk away: use {{
  ☖
  19:21, 15 February 2022 (UTC)

  Alas, I think you're correct that that wouldn't appease anyone. My whole goal here is to decrease the prominence of the information to something more commensurate with its importance, whereas that would increase its prominence. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 19:30, 15 February 2022 (UTC)

I guess this is a vote for hatnote presentation in some form. I am a bit confused as to why user MJL considers it "radical". 74.72.146.123 (talk) 19:04, 19 February 2022 (UTC)

Actually, I think something like this could be an excellent way forward, provided the notice is floated to the right, like Template:IPA notice. This would be similar to the way natives names for Buddhist concepts are currently formatted using a dedicated template (example of use: Four Noble Truths). – Uanfala (talk) 20:46, 19 February 2022 (UTC)

• Suggestion I agree that knowing the surname can be helpful for understanding the article (and less importantly for editing the article when there is inconsistent usage). Adding to the infobox doesn't seem practical since they are not required, and there are over 150 different templates that are used on biographies. Coordinates are displayed at the very top right, and that space should always be available in a biography article. What if we use that space for a very short note (e.g. "Subject shortname is foo^[a]") with a footnote link allowing the full explanation to be provided in a footnote. I don't know if "shortname" is the best way to collectively refer to all the variations that have been mentioned here, but the concept is to use both a brief hatnote-like statement of the shortname with an explanatory footnote. MB 22:53, 19 February 2022 (UTC)

  I really like this idea, or something similar that might provide a third way. Retswerb (talk) 00:51, 20 February 2022 (UTC)

  Just want to point out that looking cursorily, it seems that many of the person infoboxes are meta- or wrapper templates for {{infobox person}}. In such cases, adding a surname parameter to the core code would make it generally available. 104.247.55.106 (talk) 14:21, 20 February 2022 (UTC)

  Many are also wrappers of {{infobox sportsperson}}. Yes, updating the core code would make it available to the wrapper template, but each of them would still need an update to use it. MB 19:00, 20 February 2022 (UTC)

  That's an interesting idea and I can imagine that it can be made to work. But the text will need to be visually more prominent (say, surrounded in a box), otherwise, I'm sure that most readers won't think to look at the tiny text in the top-right corner for that sort of information. – Uanfala (talk) 23:12, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

• I'll throw out another, perhaps more creative type of possible solution. This comes from what I've observed sports broadcasters tend to do, e.g. here/here, which is to use capitalization. In our implementation, this could come through smallcaps, e.g. this, or even a combination of smallcaps and tooltips, e.g. this. I'm curious what folks think of these, as my read of the discussion above so far is that few editors see hatnotes as the ideal solution but many also don't like footnotes. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 22:18, 23 February 2022 (UTC)

  There's no accounting for taste, but I find the caps solution very unappealing aesthetically. These pages will stand out as a sore thumb imo, and applying this format will probably necessitate changes to several established MOS guidelines. 71.105.141.131 (talk) 01:53, 24 February 2022 (UTC)

  Another interesting idea, but I'm not sure I can imagine people accepting it. It's also not going to work well in all cases (what do you do with Slavonic patronymics?) and if in the end we're going to rely on footnotes (or tooltips) this brings us back to the start of this discussion. – Uanfala (talk) 23:12, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

Move protect user namespaces

withdrawn but left open for discussion; see below Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 18:35, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

To stop a common form of schoolyard vandalism, I propose we move-protect all pages in the User: and User talk: namespaces, so that they can only be moved by the owner of the userspace, or by pagemovers/admins. Thoughts? Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 20:28, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

• Wasn't this recently discussed somewhere? They will only move articles, or pages like this instead. I'd prefer they make their mess in userspace. -- zzuuzz ^(talk) 20:31, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

  Yeah, I kind of have a feeling it's something I had suggested before, but not exactly this way, or not this board, or I don't know what. I don't remember where it was or what the outcome was, but the vandalism still happens so I guess it wasn't implemented. I think it was brought up before that the vandals would just move articles instead, but I've move-protected a lot of vandalized user pages without seeing an uptick in article move vandalism to go with it. It seems to me to be more like targeted harassment than random vandalism. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 20:39, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

  Previous discussion. -- zzuuzz ^(talk) 21:15, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

• I concur strongly. I can't think of a reason not to, although I'm somewhat dim at times. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 20:34, 16 March 2022 (UTC)
• I can see arguments for and against. On the one hand, we usually protect pages only if they've been attacked or if vandalism would cause havoc (Main Page, Template:Infobox…) On the other hand, I can't think of a single good reason why I should be moving your user pages around. We might want to close any loophole that permitted a vandal to move an article to User:Foo/Lulz with only an admin able to move it back. Certes (talk) 20:57, 16 March 2022 (UTC)
• Would've prevented me from making a fool of myself earlier, which would've been nice. Well, at least we got T304008 out of it.
  One problem I can see with this, though, is trying to move a user's article draft out of their sandbox, either to the draft space or to article space. I know that's what the draft space is for, but I think (without hard evidence) this is still a common enough use case to be worth considering. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 21:02, 16 March 2022 (UTC)
• The only issue I can think of would be if a user gets renamed. I don't think global renamers are pagemovers or admins by default. If we move-protect all pages in the User: and User talk: namespaces for those who are not the owner or pagemovers/admins by default then that can cause some issues if someone is being renamed. ― Blaze Wolf^Talk_{Blaze Wolf#6545} 21:02, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

  This used to be a problem, see phab:T212082. That should be fixed now; a global rename operation should bypass all filters. Suffusion of Yellow (talk) 21:16, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

  Correct me if I'm wrong but, the proposal is to protect those namespaces except for those specific users which isn't a filter. Unless the proposal is basically proposing a new filter to be created. ― Blaze Wolf^Talk_{Blaze Wolf#6545} 21:22, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

  But how? The only other mechanism (without a major software change) would be the

  WP:TITLEBLACKLIST, and that can't exempt the "owner". Suffusion of Yellow (talk

  ) 21:26, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

  shrug I don't usually do any software related stuff so I wouldn't know. Upon writing my previous I Did think that if we were taking this literally it would require creating a separate user group for each individual user so that the protection will be applied so that only the user in their own group would be able to edit, which would be really complicated and probably take up a lot of space considering how many users there are. ― Blaze Wolf^Talk_{Blaze Wolf#6545} 21:32, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

  There must be some sort of hook in the code, as I can edit my own /common.js but other unprivileged editors can't. (And I'm really hoping that I can't write some malware elsewhere then move it to User:Victim/common.js!) Extending it would need a software change, though. Certes (talk) 22:14, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

  Yes, the "special" rules for user JS and CSS are basically hard-coded into MediaWiki core. Suffusion of Yellow (talk) 22:16, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

  So in theory it is possible to make it so userpages can only be edited by the user and other users since something similar is done with the JS and CSS pages. I say in theory because there might be something that causes this to not be possible (ignoring all the issues this would cause with legitimate moves from out of userspace). ― Blaze Wolf^Talk_{Blaze Wolf#6545} 22:22, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

  Sure, in theory lots of things could happen - the usercss/userjs was considered important enough to update the software for every project that uses mediawiki; this possible bespoke protection system for one project may not - leaving us to possibly deal with it using the abusefilter. — xaosflux ^Talk 00:06, 18 March 2022 (UTC)

• Is the proposal to also disallow moving subpages? I can think of valid reasons for that; e.g. publishing a draft. Suffusion of Yellow (talk) 21:17, 16 March 2022 (UTC)
• One consideration with any proposal to create a protected namespace is what happens when pages are moved to that space. If moves to that space were prohibited, transferring an essay/article to user space could only be done by admins. If they were allowed, vandals could move articles to user space and only an admin could restore it. Although they might not be deal-breaking issues, the question to answer is if these and similar issues would be more or less hassle than the problem being solved by blocking moves in the user namespace. isaacl (talk) 21:43, 16 March 2022 (UTC)
• Occasionally, I move drafts written on the userpage into draftspace. ― Qwerfjkltalk 22:00, 16 March 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose, if moving from user pages is restricted, we also need to restrict moving to user pages; otherwise anyone moving an article into userspace could only be reverted by people with higher permissions (and then "userfying" would also require more permissions). We should just revert, block, ignore the vandals, not lock everything down to prevent all vandalism, as that also has unintended consequences for non-vandals. —Kusma (talk) 22:13, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

  In particular, a user who accidentally moves a page into a different user's userspace (which can easily happen) should not be prevented from self-reverting. —Kusma (talk) 22:29, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

• Ummmmm..... @Ivanvector: thanks for thinking of things, when you say this is a common form of schoolyard vandalism, would you please quantify that some? I queried the last 5000 moves, going back about 1 year; filtering out only ones where the source was User:* and excluding account renames and a single odd batch by one admin, this leaves only 296 total moves. They can be seen here: Special:PermaLink/1077548981. I'm not seeing rampant vandalism that we should invest new technical controls in. Please let me know if my data looks wrong. — xaosflux ^Talk 22:17, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

  If I can provide a relevant example of the day, it's Minwu. You can add Docria1 for context. The discussion I linked above was based on a few similar examples, and you see it every now and then. I would note we have 294 (hist · log), which might appeal to some as an approach to the issue, although protection of targeted pages would work as well. -- zzuuzz ^(talk) 22:40, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

  Thank you, correction on my stats up there, those certainly don't go back a year that is "of the last 5000 moves", going back about 5 days. — xaosflux ^Talk 22:44, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

  (I didn't catch User_talk: either). Though, @zzuuzz Docria1's page moves were of an article, so aren't really in scope here? — xaosflux ^Talk 22:46, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

  They're the same vandal and the same problem, though as you say the namespace is different. I'd suggest this places them entirely within scope of this discussion (at least from my point of view). -- zzuuzz ^(talk) 22:50, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

  Well, a vandal moving articles is a different situation from ones that only move userpages - if this problem is about restricting all moves its a much bigger scope. — xaosflux ^Talk 23:17, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

  I think my point would be, as I said above, that if they couldn't move a user page, then they'll just move an article instead. -- zzuuzz ^(talk) 23:25, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

• Occasionally, I move drafts written on the userpage into draftspace. ― Qwerfjkltalk 07:13, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

  @Qwerfjkl: You wrote that exact comment at 22:00, 16 March 2022 (UTC). --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 19:28, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

  @Redrose64: Oops. I think CD saved the edit, but didn't update [whatever else it updates], so I just posted the comment again when I looked at this page. ― Qwerfjkltalk 20:26, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

• There's quite a lot of moving userspace "quasi-drafts" to draftspace that is done atm by non admins/PMs, especially as part of the AfC workflow. Nosebagbear (talk) 10:04, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

  Shouldn’t the moving of a “quasi-draft” from userspace into draftspace be done by the user who created it in their userspace? I know I would object if something I had been working on in my userspace were moved by another editor without my ok. Blueboar (talk) 11:37, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

  I agree with Blueboar. There are only three reasons I can think of for ever moving any page out of userspace without the consent of that editor:

  1. The page was improperly moved there (e.g. page move vandalism)
  2. The page was accidentally moved there (e.g. typo or misclick when moving the page)
  3. There is a consensus in a RM or a similar discussion to move the page. Thryduulf (talk) 12:12, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

  There are a lot of drafts that are created as people's userpages, especially by complete newcomers. It is absolutely fine to move such pages, either to article or draft space as appropriate (often, the user can't even do it themselves, as they are not autoconfirmed). Locking this down prevents very little vandalism (and probably just displaces it to an area where the vandal will do more harm) while impacting legitimate workflows. —Kusma (talk) 12:53, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

  Why is it fine to move a draft from userspace to elsewhere without the user's consent? Note there is no requirement to use draftspace for drafts, regardless of how new an editor is. Moving a draft from user:Foo to user:Foo/draft is not relevant here (as that's moving a page within someone's userspace no out of it), submitting a draft for publication (formally or informally) is consent for the page to be moved to article space and obviously requesting a page be moved (for any or no reason) is consent for the page to be moved. I agree that the proposed automatic protection would cause more harm than good, my comments are trying to ascertain why one of the things it would prevent is regarded as legitimate. Thryduulf (talk) 13:05, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

  "Drafts" aren't the only thing that could be in a userspace; page move vandalism is an easy thing to say could be in userspace. I don't think a situation where anyone can move a page TO their userspace, but only a small group of users can revert that is a great idea. — xaosflux ^Talk 13:28, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

  It would certainly give a huge advantage to one side in, say, move wars about whether some essay should be in user space or in Wikipedia space. —Kusma (talk) 13:44, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

  @Xaosflux indeed, I'm not in favour of this proposal but I'm still waiting for someone to explain why moving a page outside of userspace without that user's consent is appropriate outside of the three situations above (move warring and reverting an undiscussed move would come under point 1). Thryduulf (talk) 17:13, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

  @Thryduulf I can think of numerous situations that fall under "user has left the project". How about a case like: User:User/Sandbox/DraftArticle - where the draft article was collaboratively worked on and the other authors wants to move it to an article? — xaosflux ^Talk 18:07, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

  When the user submits it as a draft using {{

  subst:submit}}? ― Qwerfjkltalk

  18:14, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

  @Qwerfjkl submitting a draft is, as I said above, is consent for the page to be moved to article space. I can't think of a reason why it would need to be moved to a different namespace without their consent?

  @

  WP:IARUNCOMMON) then a fourth criteria of "user is clearly no-longer around" would cover it. If a draft is being collaboratively worked on then it's likely that there will be consensus among those working on it to move it to article space/submit it when ready. If the owner (for want of a better word) is one of them then they will be giving their consent to moving as part of this, if they aren't part of that discussion then point 3 would likely apply. Thryduulf (talk

  ) 18:25, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

  Category:Pending AfC submissions in userspace mentions moving userspace drafts to draftspace. ― Qwerfjkltalk 18:32, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

  @Qwerfjkl any idea why that instruction exists? It seems completely contrary to the use of draftspace being optional. I can understand moving User:Foo/Sandbox to User:Foo/Subject, especially if the draft is accepted, but there seems to be no reason or obvious benefit to moving to draftspace? Thryduulf (talk) 00:04, 18 March 2022 (UTC)

  @Thryduulf digging through the template codes, the Category:Pending AfC submissions in userspace is populated only when the draft in userspace is submitted for review. – robertsky (talk) 00:33, 18 March 2022 (UTC)

  That doesn't explain why the instruction to move the page though? I can't think of any reason why the content of a draft would be different just by moving namespace? Thryduulf (talk) 00:36, 18 March 2022 (UTC)

  Well, personally, I have no qualms editing other people's drafts in draftspace to improve the drafts (on top of processing the submission), but I do have editing in other's userspace without first asking for permission. I guess it's all about perceived/implicit permission to edit (in draftspace) vs asking for permission to edit (in userspace.

  WP:NOBAN: In general, one should avoid substantially editing another's user and user talk pages, except when it is likely edits are expected and/or will be helpful. If unsure, ask. If an editor asks you not to edit their user pages, such requests should, within reason, be respected. （emphasis mine). But not all editors may follow up on their talk page, for one reason or another. So, do we just let the draft in userspace languish, or have the drafts be improved in the draftspace after submission? – robertsky (talk

  ) 00:55, 18 March 2022 (UTC)

  People don't

  WP:BOLDly update and then submit abandoned drafts by deceased editors. Most of the times, it is not the polite thing to do to mess with other people's userspace, but that doesn't mean outlawing it improves things. —Kusma (talk

  ) 13:42, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

  People do sort-of own their userspace, to an extent (although certainly not completely). Abandoned drafts by deceased or long-departed editors would be exactly the sort of thing

  WP:IAR is intended for (once again I'm not supporting to allow only admins and page movers). In other situations get consent or consensus first. Thryduulf (talk

  ) 17:17, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

• Weak oppose. I see the advantages but there are legitimate moves such as User:Foo/Article → Draft:Article, it can make other bad moves hard to undo, and it may drive vandals to make more damaging and less visible moves. Instead, would anyone monitor a regular report of moves of other users' pages? It could exclude legitimate-looking cases either by nature (target in Draft:) or by user (don't report admins, page movers, etc.). Certes (talk) 11:59, 17 March 2022 (UTC)
• 'Oppose, it is a default part of the AfC workflow to move all submitted drafts out of userspace into draftspace. If the draft was submitted from, say, the sandbox, it's impossible for reviewers scanning AfC submissions to tell what it's about; having it at Draft:Title is much clearer. I've also moved drafts from user and talk pages. Rusalkii (talk) 17:06, 17 March 2022 (UTC)
  • Why can it not be moved to User:Foo/Title? Thryduulf (talk) 17:20, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

    You can't move it to User:Foo/Title if it's move protected. If you somehow limited this move protection to allow moves within userspace, what do you do when you've approved the draft and need to move it to mainspace? --Ahecht (TALK
    PAGE) 17:39, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

    Those are reasons why I'm opposing the move protection. Thryduulf (talk) 18:26, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose. Nobody should be routinely moving pages out of userspace without consent of that user, but there are exceptions (improper moves to userspace, accidental moves to userspace, and consensus) that happen often enough to make this problematic. It would also make moves more difficult when the editor does consent (e.g. submitting a draft). Thryduulf (talk) 17:20, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

  I might support prohibiting non-autoconfirmed editors from moving pages to or from other editors' userspace (unless they were the ones to move it there to cater for accidental moves), but I don't know if this is something that is possible (my uninformed guess is that it isn't without some serious software work). Thryduulf (talk) 17:23, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

  Errr... non-autoconfirmed editors can't move pages, regardless of namespace. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 21:56, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

  I completely forgot about that. Doh! Thryduulf (talk) 00:00, 18 March 2022 (UTC)

  I generally agree with that, and perhaps the Wikipedia:User pages guideline can be improved. — xaosflux ^Talk 18:10, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

• Withdrawn - I think everyone's made good points about why this is either not technically feasible or just not a good idea in general. I'm not closing because some of you are having interesting side discussions and not everything needs to be formally closed. Just on a point that was brought up about the "common-ness" of this vandalism: I don't think we should expect to see patterns of vandalism when we look at all contributions over a time period, we already know that vandalism is a tiny proportion of all editing, and trying to isolate one particular form of vandalism out of that tiny proportion is like finding a needle in a much larger stack of needles. I guess I meant "common" in the sense that it's common among the various LTAs who are known to target specific users they perceive to have done them wrong. I don't think it's a very common form of random vandalism. Everyone who said so is probably right that if we suppress this form of harassment they'll just find another way that might be even more disruptive, and just protecting the pages of users who are known to be targets is probably just as good as making it a software restriction. Thanks for the comments. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 18:35, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

  @

  WP:USERPAGE guideline updates could be in order. — xaosflux ^Talk

  18:49, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

• Comment - I agree that move protection would be overkill (for this problem) but I definitely believe that the user should receive a notification when someone moves a page from their user space. When it happened to me, I was surprised that I wasn't notified; T296955 was initiated to fix this, but it may be quite a while before anything happens. Best regards.--
  John Cline (talk
  ) 21:04, 21 March 2022 (UTC)

  I hope that almost all user-space pages are on the user's watchlist, which would be sufficient, except that many editors with user pages are inactive. Certes (talk) 21:31, 21 March 2022 (UTC)

  If I am active when someone happens to edit or move a subpage in my user space, I am pretty sure that I would notice the activity. If I am not active, I am equally as sure that I probably will not. From my perspective, the watchlist is insufficient; I maintain my belief that a notification should be sent. Sincerely.--

  John Cline (talk

  ) 22:18, 21 March 2022 (UTC)

Universal Code of Conduct Enforcement guidelines ratification voting period will close 23:59 UTC on 21 March 2022

Voting is closed. — xaosflux ^Talk 14:09, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

The ratification voting process for the revised enforcement guidelines of the Universal Code of Conduct will conclude on 21 March 2022 at 23:59:59 UTC.

I shared some voter turnout data here: Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)#Update on Universal Code of Conduct Enforcement guidelines ratification vote (as of 20 March).

Please share the information links with interested users: Project Overview • Universal Code of Conduct • Enforcement guidelines (proposed) • Voting • Voter information

The poll can be accessed via w:en:Special:SecurePoll/vote/802 or m:Special:SecurePoll/vote/391. Xeno (WMF) (talk) 02:00, 21 March 2022 (UTC)

A configuration problem which broke some voting links has been fixed. Anyone who tried and failed to vote about 12 hours ago should try again now. Certes (talk) 12:33, 21 March 2022 (UTC)

Thanks Certes; about your other query: the poll will close at 23:59:59 (UTC) today, which is I guess technically "until" the 22. This confusion was discussed at watchlist messages with xaosflux. Perhaps the time should be added? Xeno (WMF) (talk) 12:49, 21 March 2022 (UTC)

The 'landing page' for our local WLN is meta:Universal Code of Conduct/Enforcement guidelines/Voting, neither it, nor the central notice have anything about time of day on it; 'until' should suffice on this project. If you really want to globally push that time of day information there are many other places to start. — xaosflux ^Talk 13:05, 21 March 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Wikipedia:Wikipedia is a tertiary source

Should this page be an essay page, a supplemental page, or an information page? This can't be policy or guideline, as it was proposed back in 2016 on this articles talk page, but many users opposed. AKK700 03:35, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

It doesn't seem the page has any original information to justify active status. 74.64.150.19 (talk) 11:26, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

Seems fine where it is. Labeled a failed proposal. It can not be labeled information or supplemental under those conditions.Slywriter (talk) 11:35, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

On the

rare occasions when Wikipedia legitimately cites itself as a source then it's primary rather than tertiary, so the page must be about reading Wikipedia and citing it elsewhere rather than editing. Policies, guidelines, information and supplementary pages are generally aimed at editors, so it's none of those. It may belong with other help on how to read Wikipedia. There's not much of that, as reading is generally a simple and obvious process, but examples include the intricacies of search syntax. Certes (talk

) 11:50, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

Leave it exactly as it is. It is listed as a failed proposal. That looks good to me. --Jayron32 11:56, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

See also Wikipedia:Not every page needs a tag (which, despite the short page being entirely about the non-importance of tagging 'backstage' pages, sometimes grows a tag at the top of it).

I'm glad that

Wikipedia:Independent does not mean secondary. WhatamIdoing (talk

) 20:00, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

Optional thanks message, as gadget

Withdrawn by proposer. — xaosflux ^Talk 09:34, 23 March 2022 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Shouldn't allow for more than 50 characters, but i'd like to be able to say, like, "whoops, sorry about that!" in a thanks message instead of just "thanked". Not for everyone, but I'd like the option- talk messages are just very cumbersome. theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/they) 01:31, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

@

WP:VPI as there is no actionable proposal here. — xaosflux ^Talk

14:08, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

all righty- i guess not, then. cheers! theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/they) 22:02, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Logo for Nogai Wikipedia

Wrong venue, I recommend moving this to

talk

) 22:25, 23 March 2022 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Hello, I need help... Can somebody make a Wikipedia logo for Nogai Language, please....

Wikipedia The Free Encyclopedia → Википедия Ашык Энциклопедия

https://meta.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikipedia_Nogai

talk

)

This probably belongs somewhere on commons or meta... Sungodtemple (talk) 17:07, 23 March 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

RFC: New PDF icon

Should we replace the current PDF icon? –MJL ‐Talk‐^☖ 05:33, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

Background

Our current PDF icon is

Berrely mentioned this in WP:Discord, so I set about coming up with a modern SVG version of the file. The result was File:Icons-mini-file pdf old.svg  File:Icons-mini-file pdf.svg 

.

Options

There are three options that should be considered here:

• Option 1 to support using File:Icons-mini-file pdf old.svg  File:Icons-mini-file pdf.svg 
• Option 2 where you agree that we should change File:Icons-mini-file acrobat.gif  but don't like File:Icons-mini-file pdf.svg 
• Option 3 to oppose any changes to File:Icons-mini-file acrobat.gif 
• Option 4 for removing the icon entirely.

Consensus for Option 2 should be followed up in a separate discussion. [Updated 15:35, 9 September 2021 (UTC)]

CONSENSUS TO CHANGE THE ICON, BUT NO CONSENSUS YET ON WHAT TO CHANGE IT TO

Seems pretty clear that most participants want to change the icon from its current form

interface administrator. I note that there is a bit of uncertainty if the files used there can be SVGs - apparently the URL cannot be .svg but it can be .svg.png? - among the participants. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk

) 16:41, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Discussion (new PDF icon)

• Option 1. As proposer. –MJL ‐Talk‐^☖ 05:33, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

  Comment. I have uploaded a new file that does not have the GPL copyright concerns attached to it. Please see File:Icons-mini-file pdf.svg  for the old file. Currently, the old one is at File:Icons-mini-file pdf old.svg  and the new one is at File:Icons-mini-file pdf.svg , but they should be swapped in like 30 minutes or so. –MJL ‐Talk‐^☖ 21:38, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

  @Xaosflux, Anomie, WOSlinker, and Wugapodes: Sorry to ping you both again about this I have now replaced the SVG with a CC0 one per your concerns. –MJL ‐Talk‐^☖ 05:00, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

  The link in the summary above doesn't seem to point to that? Perhaps strike and insert to the proposal above? — xaosflux ^Talk 10:46, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

  Fixed. –MJL ‐Talk‐^☖ 15:35, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

• Option 1. Clean look and close enough to the original. I would also be open to moving away from the Adobe Acrobat logo if someone comes up with a different icon, since the company no longer holds a monopoly over the format. Yeeno (talk) 🍁 06:01, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
• Option 2. I would prefer something that isn't tied to Adobe, like File:Icon pdf file.svg: . There are many more options in commons:Category:PDF icons. – Joe (talk) 06:15, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

  Since this option is proving popular, but some have correctly pointed out that the "PDF" text is hard to read, I've created a version which is better optimised for small sizes: File:PDF icon.svg. Please feel free to tweak it further. – Joe (talk) 12:37, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

  I tweaked it further, but I think there's a limit to how well tiny SVGs can render text: . --Ahecht (TALK
  PAGE) 20:13, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

  It's easy to read, in SVG format, and is clear of copyright concerns. Ultimately, it's probably the best bet for symbol replacement. Plutonical (talk) 14:58, 29 September 2021 (UTC)

• Option 2, and concur with Joe that the Adobe logo is mega fail. The icon he posted in the comment above this one seems good, and it's an SVG, which is better than the tiny GIF being used currently as it can be rendered at any size without looking terrible. jp×g 06:34, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

  Man, there's some pretty great icons in that category. jp×g 06:37, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

  Do I look like I know what a JPEG is? ~~~~
  User:1234qwer1234qwer4 (talk) 09:41, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

• Option 2 The icon must change. The old thing is a relic of the dark ages. Initially I thought ooh the adobe svg looks great. But Adobe are no longer the pdf overlords, and I don't rather like Adobe, evil empire of tech that it is. Joe's suggestion of the generic PDF SVG is the perfect solution. CaptainEek ^{Edits Ho Cap'n!}⚓ 06:42, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
• Option 3 as a reasonable specific replacement. Robert McClenon (talk) 07:03, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

   Eeeehhhhhhh, @Robert McClenon, are you sure you typed in the right number for your preferred option? ~~~~
  User:1234qwer1234qwer4 (talk) 09:45, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

• Option 1 as a reasonable specific replacement. Robert McClenon (talk) 14:58, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
• Comment is licensed as copyright free but is licensed as GPL which could make a diffence as to how it can be used without any linking back to the file. -- WOSlinker (talk) 07:36, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
• Option 2 I agree with Joe.--
  here!
  07:55, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
• Option 2; the new SVG looks wrong to me without a gradient, and I think we should move away from Adobe promotion. ~~~~
  User:1234qwer1234qwer4 (talk) 09:39, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

  Option 4 below does not seem too far fetched either. We don't seem to have this for other file formats, why display an image specifically for PDFs? ~~~~
  User:1234qwer1234qwer4 (talk) 20:42, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

• Option 2: PDF is no longer specific to Adobe, so let's remove their logo. Option 1 (File:Icon pdf file.svg) looks ideal when enlarged, but the letters are hard to distinguish at icon size. I suggest a new copyright-free SVG with even larger letters (They won't occupy many pixels.) Certes (talk) 11:40, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

  @Certes, note that there are no "letters" in option 1. ~~~~
  User:1234qwer1234qwer4 (talk) 15:15, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

  Oops, I was referring to Icon pdf file.svg. Certes (talk) 17:08, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

  The only candidate I can read at 16px is (File:Icon pdf file.png). Text on other versions, including the SVG auto-converted to a 16px PNG, is illegible. Certes (talk) 18:29, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

• 1 or 2 is fine for me. --Izno (talk) 12:01, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

  Given that someone added the "ditch it entirely" option 4, put me in that camp as first preference with a fallback to 1, 2, or any other reasonable icon that isn't the old one. I am not strongly persuaded, as below in re to Ivanvector, that we must make these icons more accessible. What I would prefer to see is the block of CSS in Common.css removed and for everyone to enjoy a marginally faster page load. --Izno (talk) 19:07, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

• Still Option 2 (even after addition of an Option 4, edited 20:28, 9 September 2021): Although "oppose any changes" seems pretty strong, I was leaning toward Option 3 since the proposal seemed to be based on the argument It's a .gif made over 16 years ago, with no explanation of why that's bad. Personally, I'd rather use a 291-byte file than one 6 KB in size, ceteris paribus. But then, despite the weird threading, I noticed the replacement suggested by Joe Roe. It doesn't have the Adobe logo or (*gag*) name on it, it's clearly for PDFs, and it's only 2 KB in size. So if we're going to change, let's change to something like that. This one (, 707 bytes) works for me, too. — JohnFromPinckney (talk / edits) 12:04, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

  I don't think the file size matters here, because what is actually downloaded by your browser is a server-rendered bitmap of the appropriate size, not the original SVG. That's approximately the same for all the files,[5][6] and less than 1 KB. Also, "weird threading"? – Joe (talk) 12:18, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

  Did not know about the different download file, thanks. And it wasn't actually so much weird threading as it was confusion on my part from JPxG's contributions. My too-quick reading saw the big file image at the upper right, which wasn't either the current icon nor the proposed replacement. When they wrote concur with Joe that the Adobe logo is mega fail I thought they were agreeing with the proposer (which you're not) that the icon was mega fail (although that wasn't clear why). Then JPxG also said there's some pretty great icons in that category [sic], which would have been more appropriate, IMO, as a reply to your 06:15 post, not as a reply to themself. I got a bit lost. Confusion on my part from scanning too quickly, and thinking too slowly. — JohnFromPinckney (talk / edits) 14:52, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

  This is untrue in the context of CSS-loaded images (I am not sure whether you meant to distinguish). SVG images are sent as SVGs to the end user when loaded by CSS. In the context of this proposal, we would be making modifications to the CSS, so the end user would receive an SVG at the size of interest.

  In the context of any old generic file wikilink, yes, SVGs are rendered to bitmap and served as PNG automatically. Changing that behavior – to use SVGs more directly – is ancient phab:T5593. Izno (talk) 19:11, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

  I suppose the problem isn't directly that "[i]t's a .gif" but rather that it has a fixed resolution looking pixelated on modern screens, while a vector version would be rendered in an appropriate resolution on any device, as Joe pointed out. ~~~~
  User:1234qwer1234qwer4 (talk) 15:22, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

  Striking my !vote until I have time to study the revised options. — JohnFromPinckney (talk / edits) 18:09, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

  Unstriking my !vote above, as I find I still prefer Option 2. The target proposal in Option 1 is now even less appealing, as the new target File:Icons-mini-file pdf.svg looks even worse at 16px on my device than the old target File:Icons-mini-file pdf old.svg. The newly added Option 4 is okay, I guess, after Option 2, but I personally appreciate having an indication of PDF-ness. I sometimes use a different reader than the one my browser tries to use by default, or I can choose to save the PDF file somewhere for later perusal. — JohnFromPinckney (talk / edits) 20:28, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

  JohnFromPinckney, in citations there's already "(PDF)" as an indicator, seemingly added by {{Citation}}. Exactly how this is stylized is up for debate (Ahecht made a suggestion below), but the indication is already there without any icon. — Alexis Jazz (talk or ping me) 20:50, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

  Yes, thanks, Alexis Jazz. That means we get icon and "(PDF)" with a CS1|2 template (<ref>{{cite web |title=With cite template |url=https://example.com/Adobe.pdf}}</ref>),^[1] and just the icon without one (<ref>[https://example.com/Adobe.pdf Without cite template]</ref>).^[2] What would be good for me is to drop the icon but replace it with the textual "PDF" indicator, which I guess would be an Option 5. — JohnFromPinckney (talk / edits) 19:19, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

References

1. ^ "With cite template" (PDF).
2. ^ Without cite template

• Option 1. That logo is still the most widely associated with the PDF format, and anything else is just making things less clear for our readers. There doesn't seem to be a clear alternative being posited (the letters in the version proposed by Joe are illegible at this resolution), and most of the reasons above seem to hinge on people's person feelings about Adobe, which shouldn't enter into this debate. Either leave well alone, or adopt the new clearer version proposed by the OP.  — Amakuru (talk) 12:14, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

  "Personal feelings" is a bit dismissive. We're an free knowledge project and have a long history of supporting free software, free licenses, and free formats wherever possible. I highly doubt that the generic 90s software-looking acrobat squiggle is more widely recognised than the letters "PDF", but I agree the legibility of my first suggestion could be improved. – Joe (talk) 12:22, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

  If someone comes up with an alternative that actually works, then I might support it. But I'm not going to give a blank cheque to swap an easily recognisable logo for one which might not immediately convey its meaning to our readers. "Option 2" involves dispensing with the current logo without any consensus as to what we're swapping it for, and I can't support that.  — Amakuru (talk) 12:31, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

• Option 2 - some generic PDF logo (i.e. not the Adobe 'squiggly triangle') to be determined later. SVG > GIF, of course, but I think we should take this opportunity to swap it for a more generic logo. firefly ( t · c ) 12:25, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
• Option 2 or 3 Option 1 is a non-starter due to license. We need something that's public domain or CC0 to avoid a requirement to link back to the file description page for attribution and/or notice of license. I wouldn't oppose an identical image with a proper license; while it's annoying to have the Adobe software's logo in there, it's also recognizable. As for that several people above seem to like, all I see at that size is a document icon with a red bar over it. The text "PDF" is not visible. Again, I wouldn't oppose an alternative that's more legible. Anomie⚔ 12:26, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
  • Striking as the concerns I raised seem to have been addressed, the new image for option 1 has a usable license and people have suggested as a better choice for option 2. I don't have enough of an opinion on the current options to !vote. Anomie⚔ 16:57, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
• Option 2 Let’s move away from Adobe. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 12:32, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
• Option 3 This is change for the sake of change and doesn't actually accomplish anything. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 13:21, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

  @Pppery, the current file is 512 pixels, which is too small to be rendered properly on modern screens and appears conspicuously pixelated. ~~~~
  User:1234qwer1234qwer4 (talk) 15:29, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

• Option 3 or 2: the current icon is serviceable as is, but if we were to change, I'd rather something without the Adobe logo. Isabelle ^🔔 14:35, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
• Option 2 per Firefly and others. There is nothing wrong with using a 16-year-old icon per se, and the proposed replacement's only advantage is in file format and that's not enough reason imo to justify a change. However what does justify a change is using a generic icon that doesn't require someone knowing what the logo of a private company represents. Whatever icon we end up choosing, we should probably consider including it as an example in the PDF article. Thryduulf (talk) 15:07, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
• Option 2, PDF files are no longer the sole domain of Adobe and we shouldn't be using their logo, but none of the suggested icons have been readable. I modified one of the existing PDF SVG icons on commons to make it more readable (), but if the intent is to use this at 16px, pixel art is always going to render better than an SVG, e.g. . --Ahecht (TALK
  PAGE) 15:37, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

  I have to admit that the 16px PNG rendering does look like a usable option and also looks way less pixelated than the current icon (where even the border displays very blurry), at least on my end. ~~~~
  User:1234qwer1234qwer4 (talk) 15:48, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

• Ehhhhhhh ---- GPL are we opening a can of worms by changing from a free image to one that has to drag GPL around with it everywhere? — xaosflux ^Talk 16:58, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

  Leaning more towards Option 2 and using File:Icon pdf file.png or something similar, provided it is CC0 or other very-free license. — xaosflux ^Talk 18:50, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

  @Xaosflux and Anomie: Wouldn't a comment in the CSS be sufficient for linking to the license and authorship? –MJL ‐Talk‐^☖ 20:56, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

  Nope. The GPL seems particularly weird when it comes to images, and even more weird when it comes to SVG images. The bottom line is that we need to clearly distribute the image along with the author's copyright notice and the notice that it's under the GPL, which we satisfy by linking the image to the file description page that has all that information. Hiding a comment in a CSS file, where it'll be hard to find and may be minified out, won't cut it. Anomie⚔ 21:55, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

  Okay, I have managed to remake the SVG using stuff that was in the Public Domain. –MJL ‐Talk‐^☖ 05:06, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

• Option 2 I find the PDF text version quite promising. The one I think is the most legible is (show) (File:Icon_pdf_file.png) which is easily readable on both mobile (both vector and mobile version). There are of course scenarios where it wouldn't be legible, but I feel the current icon would be non-distinctive under the same circumstances and I could see many readers not knowing what the acrobat icon means now a days. --Trialpears (talk) 17:03, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
• Option 2 Go for File:Icon_pdf_file.png . It's more readable than the similar svg versions. -- WOSlinker (talk) 18:23, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
• Option generic PDF SVG
  b
  } 18:34, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
• Option 4 get rid of it altogether. No GPL license, no trademark (US #3652386 and #3652388, I have no idea how to link these from https://tmsearch.uspto.gov/ so search yourself, it's the squiggly triangle), no BS. The document icon with "PDF", even Joe Roe's improved version, is hard to read and ultimately provides no additional information over just the text "(PDF)". This is currently defined in MediaWiki:Common.css#L-510 btw, it's not template specific or MediaWiki default. — Alexis Jazz (talk or ping me) 19:55, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
• Opposed to any GPL-licensed image or image restricted by trademark. Would prefer CC-0 license. No strong opinions on the design itself, I'm open to a new one but don't see a serious problem with the existing image. — Wug·a·po·des​ 20:29, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

  @Wugapodes: Wouldn't the trademark issue be a problem with File:Icons-mini-file acrobat.gif  as well? I'm a little confused there. –MJL ‐Talk‐^☖ 21:00, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

  I'm not an expert on trademark, but I presume so. My understanding is that having a trademark isn't a problem per se as long as we aren't using it to mislead readers about brand identity or disparage the trademark holder. The issue isn't a legal one, but a philosophical one: I'd prefer we use free equivalents that do not have copyright or trademark restrictions whenever possible. But unless we have consensus for an option that is free of copyright and trademark, I'd rather we have some graphical representation of the PDF over nothing. So by no "serious problem" I mean that it's not enough for me to say get rid of it immediately, but I do think there is room to improve. If we are going to improve, I want us to also move in the direction of copyright- and trademark-free images, but if the option is do nothing or remove the icon without replacement, I'd rather do nothing. (NB I do like Ahect's idea of just using stylized text instead of an icon.) — Wug·a·po·des​ 21:40, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

   Question: Why is specifying the file format necessary for PDF files? ~~~~
  User:1234qwer1234qwer4 (talk) 22:13, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

  Adobe Acrobat Reader. — Alexis Jazz (talk

  or ping me) 22:33, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

  @1234qwer1234qwer4: PDFs are a bit of a weird file format. Sometimes when you click a link it will automatically download a file on your device, but other times it can just open up in a new tab. The biggest concern, however, is that not all mobile devices support PDFs across the board. My phone can just barely do it (and requires a download everytime I view one.. which can be a problem for larger files), so I have always found these icons helpful. –MJL ‐Talk‐^☖ 05:06, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

• Option Alexis Jazz -
  WP:ACCIM recommends that information should not be conveyed using only images, and while the revised icon with plain text is a slight accessibility improvement over the corporate logo version, it's still a long way off from meeting that standard. Alt text would help, but a simple (PDF) alongside the link is frankly much better and more useful than a small icon with tiny, barely-legible text. Ivanvector's squirrel (^trees/_nuts
  ) 20:40, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

  Or something like PDF, which is reminiscent of what Google uses. --Ahecht (TALK
  PAGE) 21:14, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

  I see this as a case of progressive enhancement given broadband speeds and the compression of PDFs (which has gotten better since PDFs stopped being all-image files), as the size was predominantly the rationale for ever indicating that a URL pointed to a PDF. Separately, CS1/2 already auto-indicates whether something is a PDF. I don't really see much cause for anyone to generally indicate something is a PDF. (This is not an opinion on this RFC per se, just making a comment about whether we should need to indicate something is a PDF.) Izno (talk) 19:02, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

  There is an old-school web best practice to indicate if a link doesn't take you to a web page, since that's the general expectation (and, yes, size was part of the concern). I'm not sure of the current consensus on this matter in the web design community. isaacl (talk) 19:46, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

  I haven't designed web pages since the mid-90s so I can't really comment on standards, but I'd prefer if there were some kind of indicator, text or otherwise. Compression has improved for sure but PDFs are still multimedia, even a single-page plain-text PDF can be several megabytes. Not everyone who reads Wikipedia benefits from the expansion of broadband in wealthy countries, and third-party software is still generally required to open a PDF or use their full functionality, and this can be severely prohibitive for someone on say a 14.4kbps dialup connection, or using a 2G mobile device. We still warn when a link goes to an external website, and we should do the same with multimedia. Ivanvector's squirrel (^trees/_nuts) 20:52, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

  "We still warn"? We don't (I assume by "we" you mean MediaWiki software, please be precise if otherwise), at least not "accessibly", in the same way we don't as the would-be "replace with 'PDF' in text". Izno (talk) 21:22, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

  If you look at the web, I'd say that mostly doesn't happen any longer. I mostly don't think it should, especially with the advent of "the browser does everything (video, audio, PDFs of late in e.g. Firefox, yadda yadda)". Browsers are monsters not far off from being their own operating systems (

  oh wait :). Izno (talk

  ) 21:24, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

  Although links to PDF files often lack indicators (with the ubiquity of the format, probably due to both happenstance and successful Adobe marketing), links to video and audio generally still provide some kind of indication. Users generally want to know in advance if they're going to see some kind of audiovisual presentation. Their current browsing environment (such as alone in a room or within a crowd) and personal desires at the moment influence what type of interaction they want to have. isaacl (talk) 00:56, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

  Yes, by "we" I did mean the MediaWiki software, with the little "arrow escaping the box" icon beside all external links (like this, which is, indeed, not accessible). Remember that while progress marches on, it marches past many people who read Wikipedia but don't have access to cutting-edge tech that we do in developed countries, and something as minor to us as loading a couple-megabyte multimedia file could be an outright ordeal for them. On a trip to Cuba a few years ago I turned my phone on when our plane landed, and didn't even get out of the airport before I had a text from my carrier saying I was up to $100 in roaming charges and they had disabled my data. I remember the not-too-distant past trying to edit through Opera on a flip phone, and recently made one edit from my Wii's embedded browser just to see if it would work - it did but it was frustrating. I still see more Windows XP than ChromeOS in checkuser results, and rarely even older OSes. Ivanvector's squirrel (^trees/_nuts) 16:43, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

  Most of the major search engines indicate PDFs (Google, Bing, DuckDuckGo, Yandex, and Baidu do, Yahoo and Ask don't). --Ahecht (TALK
  PAGE) 19:47, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

• With apologies to those who already knew, the choice of icon is implemented in
  .png may be the best format for this use case. Certes (talk
  ) 22:52, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

  Certes, I had already mentioned Common.css above, but you inspired me to add an anchor to the line number. — Alexis Jazz (talk or ping me) 23:02, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

  @Certes: Really, SVG is the best format because it is the most scalable (imo). –MJL ‐Talk‐^☖ 05:06, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

  Normally, yes, but the software doesn't seem to accept SVGs here. Also, if it's shown at a fixed 16px, we should probably optimise for that, e.g. align the paper edges and the orthogonal lines of the letters mid-pixel. If the day comes when MediaWiki renders an SVG at 128px on our 16k holodisplays, we can replace the icon again. Certes (talk) 10:19, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

  When it says "cannot be SVG format", I suspect that refers to the URL used. So https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cb/Icons-mini-file_pdf.svg would fail, but https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/cb/Icons-mini-file_pdf.svg/16px-Icons-mini-file_pdf.svg.png would be ok. For that matter, the restriction on SVG may be outdated (it was written in 2011), or may have been because someone's browser in 2011 didn't support SVGs there, or may be to avoid explaining that the SVG's intrinsic size needs to be 16px; at any rate, I tested it and it seemed to work fine. But I do agree that optimizing the icon for the size would be a good idea. Anomie⚔ 11:51, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

  The "restriction" is outdated. We have been serving SVGs via TemplateStyles for CS1 for a year or two now. My guess is that it is related to IE8 and lower, which MediaWiki no longer supports. The page pointed to by Certes should be updated. Izno (talk) 18:58, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

  But if you're using the png rendering of an SVG file, you get all the downsides of an SVG (e.g. blurry lines and fonts) with none of the advantages of it being scalable. --Ahecht (TALK
  PAGE) 13:14, 24 September 2021 (UTC)

• Option 2 I think File:Icon_pdf_file.png is a much better replacement, is very readable, and is simple. This is the obvious choice for me. DiamondIIIXX (talk) 03:47, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
• Comment This may seem like an odd question but, why is the file in a .gif format anyways? Aren't .gif format files used for animated images? But I support Option 2, per the above discussion. The current file makes it seem like the file is in Adobe Acrobat (which, a few years ago, that was probably the only way to view PDFs) when really it can be viewed in many places besides Adobe Acrobat.
  talk) (Stupidity by me
  ) 19:06, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

  GIF format was long used for images on computer networks, pre-Internet, pre-Web, and up to now. Due to patent issues (which are no longer applicable as the patent in question has expired), there was a push to move to PNG format, and JPEG became popular for photos due to better compression and appearance (both due to higher resolution colour not being limited to only showing 256 colours and its compression algorithm being a better fit). GIFs remained in use for animated images as the original PNG specification did not support this capability. The current image being a GIF is reflective of how long ago it was put into place. isaacl (talk) 19:27, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

  Ah ok, thanks for informing me! I've always know .gif format files as being animated images so I was confused when I saw that the current image we're using was in the .gif format but wasn't animated. @

  talk) (Stupidity by me

  ) 19:31, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

• Option 1 as an improvement, until someone thinks of something which is equally clear and less like its own logo. DGG ( talk ) 06:33, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

  I'm confused as to what you mean. Many people have already thought of something equally clear and less like a logo.

  talk) (Stupidity by me

  ) 13:07, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

• I'm not going to pick an "option" because at this point there are too many icons going around, but I support using some sort of SVG icon (preferably without the Adobe logo) that's CC0 (or similarly) licensed. I don't prefer any particular icon. Tol (talk | contribs) @ 21:14, 10 September 2021 (UTC)\]

  @Tol: Option 2 does not require a commitment to any particular proposed icon. All it means is that you are against File:Icons-mini-file pdf.svg  and are also against File:Icons-mini-file acrobat.gif . That sounds like where you are basically at right now. –MJL ‐Talk‐^☖ 06:34, 12 September 2021 (UTC)

  @MJL: Ack, my mistake. Option 2 sounds good. Tol (talk | contribs) @ 17:39, 12 September 2021 (UTC)

• Question Have we asked Adobe what they will allow? I quickly skimmed https://www.adobe.com/legal/permissions/icons-web-logos.html and thought I need to ask someone with expertise in copyright law. Vexations (talk) 22:24, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

  Does it matter? If we don't want to use one vendor's logo for an industry-wide standard, whether they want us to use it is irrelevant. Certes (talk) 22:32, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

• Option 2 (use MediaWiki? fallback). I used inspect element to disable the current icon pulled from Common.css, and discovered that the fallback pdf icon is evidently [7]. This is the visual counterpart to the external link icon [8]. I suppose this is a !vote to remove the text in Common.css, and let this fallback icon take its place, since it establishes a nice visual consistency, and doesn't stick out as much as the ones that have been proposed so far, which I don't like. — Goszei (talk) 04:46, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

For the sake of illustration in this discussion, I have uploaded the icon I am proposing to Commons; it looks like this: (for comparison, here is the external link icon that appears all over Wikipedia, part of the same MediaWiki set: ). — Goszei (talk) 03:43, 20 September 2021 (UTC)

• Option 2 - Personally I like Icon pdf file.png Seddon ^talk 18:47, 13 September 2021 (UTC)
• I support Option 2 () because it seems the best visual indicator of a PDF. I oppose just using text; the image makes it stand out that it's a PDF. ― Qwerfjkltalk 19:04, 13 September 2021 (UTC)
• Option 2 per everyone else, and in terms of replacements, first choice: PDF, second choice: File:PDF icon bold.svg , third choice: File:PDF icon.svg . Levivich 05:25, 14 September 2021 (UTC)
• Option 2. Concur about change from corporate logo; but there's a problem, because we don't seem to be moving towards any consensus whatsoever about what is the substitution. I believe the PDF Google PDF icon is the most legible and does not cram white letters into a red background, which the colour-blind may not see, and that against a white sheet of paper with abnormally thick black margins. Keep it simple, really; there is no obligation for us to keep that red stripe. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 09:46, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

  we don't seem to be moving towards any consensus whatsoever about what is the substitution that's not a problem because this discussion is explicitly not intended to determine that. If (as seems likely) option 2 gains consensus there will be a second discussion to determine what the replacement should be. Thryduulf (talk) 12:23, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

• Option 2 as tie to Adobe is no longer appropriate. Use . I'm seeing that around anyway, so more and more becoming the default I guess. Herostratus (talk) 02:48, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
• Option 2 Any icon containing the letters PDF. The best so far seems to be PDF icon.svg , followed by PDF icon bold.svg , but perhaps a version with black/dark blue lettering could be better? — GhostInTheMachine ^{talk to me} 08:35, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

  Maybe not ... PDF icon blue.svg and PDF icon black.svg — GhostInTheMachine ^{talk to me} 09:19, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

• Option 2 although I am not fond of the red letters, as it seems redundant For example MyProposal.pdf DGerman (talk) 19:55, 20 September 2021 (UTC)
• Related proposal: I've opened a related proposal; !voters here are invited to comment at Help talk:Citation Style 1/Archive 79#Proposal: Use the document icon instead of the external link icon for documents. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 04:42, 23 September 2021 (UTC)
• Option 2. Perhaps the new symbol, to be determined, could be a piece of paper with a folded corner (As is seen in most file format icons) with the letters "PDF" on it? Clear of copyright concerns and adobe attachment. (EDIT: Just learned that the comments below indeed have this idea covered) Plutonical (talk) 14:55, 29 September 2021 (UTC)
• Option 2 - PNGs including a 2x resolution version for HiDPI displays. I like with its crisp, white-on-red "PDF" banner across the file, but it needs to stay crisp on high-res displays and that PNG will look bad. User:GKFX^talk 17:16, 11 October 2021 (UTC)
• Option 2 so we can stop advertising for Adobe every time we link to a PDF. Calling out PDF links is still useful. Retswerb (talk) 02:12, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
• Option 1 or 2 are equally fine for me. Whatever replaces it should be a SVG and not any other image format. Stifle (talk) 11:12, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
• Option 2 with File:Icon_pdf_file.png or a similar option that reads "PDF". {{Nihiltres |talk |edits}} 01:52, 16 October 2021 (UTC)
• Option 2. The svg is good work, and an improvement over the gif. I don't dislike it, but I like supporting "undisputable" non-commercial generic work much more. So, please go with a generic svg version that has a readable PDF acronym on it. (This one looks best: ) Thanks. Huggums537 (talk) 03:31, 16 October 2021 (UTC)
• Option 2 - clearer than the original and is an improvement (especially since it drops the logo attempt). Oppose option 4, as I believe there is usefulness to pointing it out in both image and text form (see
  WP:RICHMEDIA, among other things). Hog Farm _Talk
  06:19, 21 October 2021 (UTC)
• Option 2 – the most sensible choice, we should not be tying ourselves to adobe if we can avoid it. HF above sums up my sentiments as well. Aza24 (talk) 00:31, 25 October 2021 (UTC)
• Option 2: get rid of the Adobe logo as first choice, anything with the letters "PDF" will do but is the best. Second choice is to update the extremely pixellated Adobe logo to the new one. — Bilorv (talk) 12:00, 26 October 2021 (UTC)
• Option 2 with File:Icon pdf file.png . Using lettering rather than a logo makes it clearer to readers what the icon means, and the letteting in this PNG version is much clearer than any of the SVGs posted above. Modest Genius ^talk 10:57, 28 October 2021 (UTC)
• Option 4 Most modern browsers can handle PDFs without difficulty, so I think it might be time to eventually remove the icon altogether. Oppose any lettered icons as looking too 90s-esque compared to the sleek Adobe-triangle.  – John M Wolfson (talk • contribs) 22:03, 29 October 2021 (UTC)
• Comment restored from the archive. While I am involved here, it's very clear that "no change" (option 3) is not the consensus so someone uninvolved should determine what the consensus is and take the appropraite next steps. Thryduulf (talk) 23:10, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

Option 2 (can't close - don't know how to execute), using the letter option mooted above by numerous others. It's clearer, which is really the only basis for decisions we have here Nosebagbear (talk) 15:48, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Further discussion (PDF icon)

Since opinions are split and some people noted that further discussion would be needed, leaving this section open. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 16:41, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

• There are 15 icons in Commons:Category:PDF icons under Public Domain that are not based around the Adobe Acrobat logo (which was rejected above), listed below in alphabetical order of file name; the ones in italics were mentioned in the above discusison
  • Option 1: File:.pdf OneDrive icon.svg -
  • Option 2: File:Document-303123.svg -
  • Option 3: File:Icon pdf file.png -
  • Option 4: File:Icon pdf.svg -
  • Option 5: File:Icon-354355.svg -
  • Option 6: File:Ilovepdf.svg -
  • Option 7: File:PDF icon black.svg -
  • Option 8: File:PDF icon blue.svg -
  • Option 9: File:PDF icon bold.svg -
  • Option 10: File:PDF icon.svg -
  • Option 11: File:Pdf link icon.png -
  • Option 12: File:Pdf-155498.svg -
  • Option 13: File:Pdf-2127829.png -
  • Option 14: File:Pdf-47199.svg -
  • Option 15: File:Pdfreaders-f.png -

  I think that is too many options for a single RfC so we should try and narrow it down first. Unless anyone has better suggestions I propose a round of approval voting first to find the top 4/5 that people could support, with those being the options in a full RfC? Thryduulf (talk) 18:09, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

  Seems like a good plan, as I agree that 15 choices is too many. (As an editorial aside, the list could get quickly pruned somewhat by eliminating those which are unusable; some of these are indecipherable to me.) Do we need to first clarify .svg/.png formats? Or do we know that both are equally good (although that seems in some conflict with the note in the RfC close above)? — JohnFromPinckney (talk / edits) 04:52, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

  At their current sizes, I find all but 3, 9 & 10 nearly impossible to read. 7, 8 and 11 are a stretch, but I can make out the letters. I would have no idea what 6 means to indicate without context. Aza24 (talk) 05:15, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

  On my device, with my eyes, I can read option 9, and with difficulty 3, 4, and 10. Since I know I'm looking for "PDF", 5, 11, and 12 are on the boundary of recognizability. I could plausibly make out some of the others by removing my glasses and bringing my phone nearer my face, but I'm unconvinced that is the solution we're seeking. Folly Mox (talk) 05:50, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

  3, 9, 10 are the clearest in terms of legibility and actually conveying meaning. Since I'm aware that I'm on team-letters, one other option should be included which is option 14 that is both legible and would probably be understood over time. The issue is that it makes me think it's powerpoint, but that argument could be had in the 2nd RfC. Nosebagbear (talk) 11:55, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

  To clarify for any reviewer, 3 is the best of these Nosebagbear (talk)

• Yes, let's put one contender forward against the incumbent. Legibility is key here; I find 9, 3, 10 easiest to read in that order. Is it worth considering another alternative with the letters in red on white rather than white on red? That could save a couple of pixels at the sides, enabling the letters to grow slightly. I've tried playing around and can't make anything worth uploading but someone with a clue about graphic design probably could. Certes (talk) 14:31, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

  I think any colored text makes it harder to read the letters at such small size. I prefer something like 11, perhaps 9 with plain black text. MB 14:48, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

  Black lettering on 9 would work too, though readers may associate the red-white-black palette with PDF. Certes (talk) 14:56, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

  Maybe 9 with black text and a red outline of the document symbol is a way to get some red in there. MB 15:21, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

• 3, distant second:9. — xaosflux ^Talk 15:11, 12 January 2022 (UTC)
• For me 3 is the most clear, with 9, 10 and 11 readable but noticeably less so. Thryduulf (talk) 15:55, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

  Looking on a smaller (and dirtier) laptop screen 3 is by far the clearest, 9 is readable but not as easily. 10 and especially 11 I'm not convinced I could read if I didn't know what they said. Thryduulf (talk) 22:58, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

• I don't have clear preferences on what should be the one we should adopt, but I have some arguments against 2, 6, 7, 8, 11, 12, 14, 15.
  • The word "PDF" in 7 & 8 are simply not legible at all, and have an overall bad contrast.
  • 11 & 12 look good on zooming in but on my screen, they can be easily overlooked if one isn't searching for a logo on there.
  • 14 & 15 are not quite associatable with PDFs in general. The huge "P" in 14 makes it appear more like MS PowerPoint logo than PDF. In option 15, the average person will associate the green very closely with spreadsheets rather than PDFs (thanks to Excel & GSheets), plus the word "PDF" on it is too small to be legible.
  • 2 appears more like a basic Windows notepad app, again the word "PDF" is not legible either.
  • 6 is the logo of ilovepdf.com and shouldn't be used due to the very reasons some editors already raised regarding the Adobe relation in current one. Also, what does a reader coming across a random heart symbol in a certain external link understand of it? ---CX Zoom(^he/_him) (^{let's talk}|_contribs) 19:25, 12 January 2022 (UTC)
    • To make it easier for whoever compiles the results, are you saying you have no objections to: 1, 3, 4, 5, 9, 10 and 13? Thryduulf (talk) 21:55, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

      Yes, as of yet, I approve of 1, 3, 4, 5, 9, 10 & 13. ---CX Zoom(^he/_him) (^{let's talk}|_contribs) 22:15, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

• On my laptop, I find 3 the easiest to read, then 10, then 9, then 11. 7 and 8 possess bad color combinations, options 4 and 12 are too small, and the others just don't look right, especially option 6. ResPM (T🔈🎵C) 00:01, 13 January 2022 (UTC)
• 3 if we're going to use an image, but I think of a Google-like text tag is still better. If we are using an image, there's no advantage to using an SVG if mediawiki is going to convert it to a raster image anyway. --Ahecht (TALK
  PAGE) 18:40, 13 January 2022 (UTC)
• Option 3 is by far the clearest for me. ― Qwerfjkltalk 18:07, 15 January 2022 (UTC)
• Option 3 Most recognizable for me, alternatively 10 as a second choice. — Preceding unsigned comment added by IAmChaos (talk • contribs) 23:17, 20 January 2022 (UTC)
• I'd suggest we just vote on 3, 9, and 10. They're by far the best options of the bunch. Mlb96 (talk) 04:34, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

This has been open a few hours short of 10 days and we have three clear favourites so is seems an appropriate time to close this round. Allocating 1 point for a first or equal first choice and 0.5 for a second or equal second choice the scores are:

Option	Votes
1	1
2	0
3	10
4	1
5	1
6	0
7	0.5
8	0.5
9	7
10	5.5
11	2
12	0
13	1
14	1
15	0

As 3, 9 and 10 are clearly the most supported, they should be the options for the formal RfC. I did initially say "4 or 5" options, but while there is a clear 4th choice (option 11) it is a long way behind and it doesn't seem sensible to make the RfC more complicated just to include it. I don't have time now to set that up, I might later today but after that it will likely not be until about Thursday so someone else taking point would be good. Thryduulf (talk) 10:57, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

Might want to count how many people opined in general. When folks are not treating a RfC as an either-or choice and supporting more than one option, the ratio of "support for a given option"/"total amount of participants" can be an useful metric to gauge consensus. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 11:05, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

3, 9, and 10 are all equally acceptable to me at this stage. KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 11:14, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

@Jo-Jo Eumerus by a quick count, 13 people expressed an opinion about 1 or more of the options before the summary. The discussion was explicitly set up as approval voting to find the options for an RfC, it was not intended to determine consensus for a final option. Thryduulf (talk) 11:31, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

Since you don't need consensus to start an RfC, Thryduulf, and this discussion seems more than sufficient, I think you should feel free to start it. KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 02:34, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

@L235 as noted, I'm not going to have time to start it for a few more days. Thryduulf (talk) 01:19, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

RFC: Changing the icon for PDF files

The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

There is a consensus for Option A. Option A was the clear favorite among images and there was a consensus that there should be an image. A minority of editors would prefer to only have a text notation for PDF files (no icon), with this group of editors also largely preferring A if there had to be an image. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 17:26, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

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Which icon should replace the currently used ones for PDF files? At #RFC: New PDF icon there was consensus to replace the current PDF icon (File:Icons-mini-file acrobat.gif ) with one that is not based on the Adobe Acrobat logo, but not on a specific replacement. At #Further discussion (PDF icon) all the public domain icons currently available at Wikimedia Commons that are not based on the Acrobat logo were considered and three identified as clearly better than the others, this RFC seeks to determine which of those options should be used. Thryduulf (talk) 09:37, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

Which icon should be used for PDF files?

• Option A: File:Icon pdf file.png
• Option B: File:PDF icon bold.svg
• Option C: File:PDF icon.svg
• Option D: Something else (to be followed up in a new discussion)

Discussion (Changing the icon for PDF files)

The following people commented in the first discussion: @

Blaze The Wolf, DGG, Tol, Vexations, Seddon, Qwerfjkl, Levivich, Szmenderowiecki, Herostratus, GhostInTheMachine, DGerman, Sdkb, Retswerb, Stifle, Nihiltres, Huggums537, Hog Farm, Aza24, Bilorv, Modest Genius, John M Wolfson, and Nosebagbear: Thryduulf (talk

) 09:41, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

And the following people commented in the follow-up but not the first discussion: @JohnFromPinckney, Folly Mox, MB, CX Zoom, ResPM, IAmChaos, Mlb96, L235, and Jo-Jo Eumerus:. 09:42, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

Fixing pings: @Malcolmxl5 and Blaze Wolf:. Thryduulf (talk) 09:45, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

• Option A: This is the clearest on all the devices I have available to look at it on (desktop, laptop and Android mobile). Thryduulf (talk) 09:47, 29 January 2022 (UTC)
  • I oppose no icon, because highlighting that a link is not an HTML page is useful information for accessibility - not every device can (easily) read PDF files. Thryduulf (talk) 18:28, 29 January 2022 (UTC)
• Option A looks the best to me. ― Qwerfjkltalk 10:02, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

  Note: I'm on a tablet. ― Qwerfjkltalk 14:38, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

• Option A. The other two look dreadful on my browser, only A is crisp and clean.  — Amakuru (talk) 10:10, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

  Update following Thryduulf's note below: Still sticking with A. C is marginally better than B, but A definitely looks by far the clearest.  — Amakuru (talk) 11:38, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

  Further comment: I've checked on my phone too, and actually C is indeed very slightly better than A there, which might be what others are seeing, but A still looks fine on mobile, so A remains the clear victor overall given the much better rendering on my Windows 10 / Chrome setup.  — Amakuru (talk) 11:42, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

  Also oppose the suggestion of using text. That would be confusing and cluttered, whereas the current icon is fairly clear.  — Amakuru (talk) 17:38, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

• Option A. Seddon ^talk 10:11, 29 January 2022 (UTC)
• Option C - Clearer than option A.
  Please ping me!
  11:10, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

  Option A - Nicest looking.

  Please ping me!

  10:32, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

• Option A - clearest Nosebagbear (talk) 10:56, 29 January 2022 (UTC)
• @
  A. C. Santacruz, Seddon, Amakuru, and Qwerfjkl: I've just noticed that the image at Option C was actually displaying the option B icon. I've now fixed this, but you may wish to look again. Thryduulf (talk
  ) 11:04, 29 January 2022 (UTC)
• Option C.--
  here!
  11:14, 29 January 2022 (UTC)
• Option A, C is second, B is nope. In general C seems to be a better file, but when scaled down to 16px for this use case, A seems clearer while C gets a bit of a blur effect. At larger resolutions, I'm seeing the reverse. — xaosflux ^Talk 11:27, 29 January 2022 (UTC)
• Option A: This looks the best at the small size. -- WOSlinker (talk) 11:30, 29 January 2022 (UTC)
• Option A or C: A hard decision for me. On my PC, A is clearly the best, whereas on both my phone & tablet (using mobile version), C appears to be the best. B is last on all platforms though. ---CX Zoom(^he/_him) (^{let's talk}|_contribs) 11:58, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

  I believe that's because A is a .PNG and C is a .SVG. Levivich 16:27, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

  For whatever reason, mediawiki renders the SVG as a 16x18 png on desktop browsers (which looks like crap) and a 32x37 png on mobile browsers (which looks fine). --Ahecht (TALK
  PAGE) 14:53, 9 February 2022 (UTC)

• Option B looks best on a small screen — GhostInTheMachine ^{talk to me} 12:24, 29 January 2022 (UTC)
• Option D: get rid of it. Links to files can be indicated with the text "(PDF)", no need for any icon. The option to get rid of it was introduced too late in the first discussion so it couldn't gain enough traction. — Alexis Jazz (talk or ping me) 12:37, 29 January 2022 (UTC)
• Option A or B: A looks slightly better on my laptop. Surprisingly, B is clearer on my mobile. C is a close third on both. I suspect this is very device- (and perhaps eyesight-) dependent; any of the three would be an improvement. Certes (talk) 12:45, 29 January 2022 (UTC)
• Option D (no icon) all of those icons look like they're from the 90s/early 2000s, tbh. And text "(PDF)" is adequate per above. – John M Wolfson (talk • contribs) 15:37, 29 January 2022 (UTC)
• D (no icon) - My preference remains to use a non-icon, text marker, like (PDF), or even stylized text, like this: PDF. Icons are more taxing, client and server side, than text, and while PDF icons won't make a big difference on the client side, and we can handle it on the server side, this website is only going to get bigger, and I see no reason to burden it with image icons when text will do. Option A looks better on my desktop; it's a PNG. C looks better on my iPhone; it's an SVG. But on my iPhone, I can't see any of the icons clearly enough to make out "PDF" because of the small screen, unless I zoom in. Also, text is word-searchable, where as icons are not. I just don't see any benefit to using any icon over text. Levivich 16:42, 29 January 2022 (UTC)
• Option D (no icon). But, in case we do stick with one, Option A looks better to me. Isabelle ^🔔 16:47, 29 January 2022 (UTC)
• Option A or D (no icon): Option A if icons are preferred, but they aren't that necessary. "(PDF)" is five characters, direct and concise. ResPM (T🔈🎵C) 16:54, 29 January 2022 (UTC)
• Option A or D (stylized text: PDF as suggested by Levivich) I think "A" is the best icon if we have to use an icon, but I believe the idea of stylized text is even better, and it should be presented as one of the options in these discussions. Huggums537 (talk) 17:07, 29 January 2022 (UTC)
  • @Huggums537: removing the icon completely was an option in the first RFC, it did not gain consensus then (using a different icon was). Thryduulf (talk) 18:28, 29 January 2022 (UTC)
    • What I mean is the stylized text should be presented as an option if there are future discussions as you indicated might happen per your original post by option D. So, we still have yet to see if that discussion will take place or if consensus will call for that option to be presented. Huggums537 (talk) 14:29, 30 January 2022 (UTC)
• My preference would be an icon, as they stand out - lots of the text is just noise. ― Qwerfjkltalk 17:33, 29 January 2022 (UTC)
• Comment - As per a comment above, I will !vote after viewing on another computer and on smartphone. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:48, 29 January 2022 (UTC)
• "No icon with '(PDF)'" is not technically feasible for generic old links to PDF, so it would need to be policy mandated somewhere or another. "No icon and nothing else" of course is quite feasible. :) My preferences are "no icon at all" (and I don't care about whether it becomes policy or not, but good luck getting that into MOS where it would likely live) followed by A or C (slight preference to A). Preferences exclude B totally. --Izno (talk) 17:52, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

  @Izno Can you do me a favor and, whenever asserting that something is not technically feasible, explain why? :-) Thanks, Levivich 18:05, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

  WP:CONTEXTBOT in context of any response you might have. Izno (talk

  ) 18:26, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

  @

  WP:CONTEXTBOT? Because that is not what I think of when I think of the words technically feasible in the context of changing how a website works. Levivich

  18:31, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

  That is precisely what I mean when I use the word technically feasible, as in technologically feasible, if that makes it easier for you to parse the words. If you think a change to MediaWiki for this would be accepted upstream, I am here to tell you that you are simply wrong, for the same reasons as CONTEXTBOT says. A bot would run into contextbot of course. That leaves a gadget to add it at any given edit time, or editor willpower to do so. Either way, it is not technically feasible to add the words after a link of interest automatically in such a fashion. Izno (talk) 18:41, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

  That is not what I understand "technically feasible" or "technologically feasible" to mean: both those phrases mean there's a technical problem, as in, a software or hardware limitation. A policy prohibition is not a technical problem. I'm glad you've explained it, because heretofore, I understood you to be saying the software can't do it.

  What would we need a bot for? This would be a CSS change, no? Levivich 18:47, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

  No. There is no CSS that will do this for you accessibly, which I presume is the reason you want the parenthetical PDF in the first place. Izno (talk) 18:58, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

  Again, can you explain, rather than assert, why this cannot be done accessibly? What's inaccessible about :after and content: ? Levivich 19:00, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

  It cannot be read by screen readers, which have the same issues as they would with the icon. Izno (talk) 19:29, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

  Ah, thanks for that explanation. Isn't the way it's done currently, with a CSS background image showing a PDF icon, also not web accessible? (It's Failure Technique 3.) So whether we change the icon, or we use text, it makes no difference to accessibility? Levivich 19:56, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

  Correct, no external URL icon is accessible. There is an argument that can be made that this is a case of progressive enhancement of course, since the CSS icon/text can be argued are extraneous to a well-titled URL. Izno (talk) 22:13, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

  I'm no expert, but looking at MediaWiki:Common.css and Help:External link icons, it appears the only options supported by MediaWiki are an icon or nothing. You could make an image of the plain text I suppose, but I can't think of any reason off the top of my head why that would be beneficial. Thryduulf (talk) 18:39, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

  @Thryduulf: I was able to accomplish it (replacing the icon with the text "(PDF)") with this local CSS hack just now. Levivich 18:54, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

• Option A Both B and C look blurry to me. I am opposed to no image, since I am personally quite glad to see the pdf icon at a glance, it is useful information. CaptainEek ^{Edits Ho Cap'n!}⚓ 18:06, 29 January 2022 (UTC)
• Option A or D, with "D" being a text-based equivalent such as the PDF used by Google. --Ahecht (TALK
  PAGE) 19:47, 29 January 2022 (UTC)
• Option A... glad to see change is actually taking place here! Aza24 (talk) 20:04, 29 January 2022 (UTC)
• Option A seems better. _{دَستخَط،}
  ^{(کَتھ باتھ)}
  12:44, 30 January 2022 (UTC)
• Option A. Clearest of the A-B-c choices. The argument for no icon is reasonable, I just think an icon stands out more and works better. Herostratus (talk) 14:05, 30 January 2022 (UTC)
• I prefer SVGs as a concept so option C. The image is not blurred at all, but may have been rendered as such on some browsers. Stifle (talk) 10:59, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

  @Stifle: AIUI, the icon has to be a raster image and so if an SVG is chosen it will be a PNG rendering of the SVG that is displayed. I don't know if that makes a difference to your view. Thryduulf (talk) 12:10, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

  If that's so I would choose A (which appears to be winning a landslide anyway). Stifle (talk) 15:05, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

• Option A or D, as what there have been good arguments for both sides. Low-res text and Plaintext are both good ideas for cross-platform readability, and I am having a hard time choosing between them. ☢️Plutonical☢️ᶜᵒᵐᵐᵘⁿᶦᶜᵃᵗᶦᵒⁿˢ 12:01, 31 January 2022 (UTC)
• Still-unanswered question regarding.svg/.png formats: do we know that both are equally good (although that seems in some conflict with the note in the RfC close above)? I get different results depending on my device. The SVGs are better on my phone; the PNG is better on my desktop. — JohnFromPinckney (talk / edits) 12:13, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

  @JohnFromPinckney: All the SVG images are converted to PNG by mediawiki before being displayed (see meta:Community Wishlist Survey 2022/Multimedia and Commons/Improve SVG rendering). For whatever reason, mediawiki renders the SVG as a 16x18 png on desktop browsers (which looks like crap) and a 32x37 png on mobile browsers (which looks fine). --Ahecht (TALK
  PAGE) 14:56, 9 February 2022 (UTC)

• Option A. These appear slightly differently on different browsers, desktop vs mobile etc. probably due to the SVG scaling. I've tested a few and A looks acceptably clear on all of them. C is maybe slightly better when using Safari on mobile, but looks blurry on Firefox desktop. B has the same problem and the bold text is a bit overwhelming. Option A looks good everywhere I tried. It's also the smallest file size of the three, by an order of magnitude. Modest Genius ^talk 14:06, 31 January 2022 (UTC)
• Option A, with weak support for Option D, looks less blurry than Option C, however I have weak support for D since, if implemented correctly, it just saying (PDF) is fine, however as just plain text it looks weird. ― Blaze Wolf^Talk_{Blaze Wolf#6545} 14:47, 31 January 2022 (UTC)
• Option D per the Ahecht example. A-C are all blurry to me with my normal browser and screen size and I can't really read the letters. I can recognized it means PDF by the red band. I would prefer not to go through that mental conversion and just have something clearer. A icon should be as discernible as the rest of the page. MB 15:42, 31 January 2022 (UTC)
• Option C/A (don't care which) but also I am still bitter that Option 1(
  ☖
  00:18, 1 February 2022 (UTC)
• Option A - Definitely looks better on desktop, slightly fuzzier than C for me on mobile but not bad. B doesn't look great on either. Not a fan of "(PDF)" in text but the stylized text suggested by Levivich seems like an ok secondary option. Retswerb (talk) 04:32, 1 February 2022 (UTC)
• Comment: Building on Levivich's text-based proposal and combining the pictures' visual elements into it, I made one that looks like this: PDF The text on it is sharper than it is in pictures, while also retaining the visual elements typically used to denote pdfs. Any suggestion from the community? ---CX Zoom(^he/_him) (^{let's talk}|_contribs) 13:44, 1 February 2022 (UTC)

  My initial reaction on a desktop (not looked on other devices yet) is that it's significantly larger than any of the icons, more dominant of its surrounds (not a good thing in this context) and no clearer than option A. Thryduulf (talk) 15:55, 1 February 2022 (UTC)

  I see the same as Thryduulf. I think this idea could be better than A, B or C and is worth pursuing, but that particular implementation isn't a winner. Certes (talk) 18:05, 1 February 2022 (UTC)

• Option B – Nice bold text, perfectly visible. Especially on higher density screen like mine with scale set to 125% it looks okay and is perfectly readable. — Polda18 (talk) 19:05, 1 February 2022 (UTC)
• Option A best on my device. — Wug·a·po·des​ 19:52, 1 February 2022 (UTC)
• Option D ~no icon + text, per Levivich and others; if we have to have an icon, Option B is the only one readable on my screen. Happy days ~ Lindsay^Hello 09:15, 5 February 2022 (UTC)
• Option A looks best to me; the text in the other options looks blurry at small size. kcowolf (talk) 03:48, 9 February 2022 (UTC)
• Option A, being the most legible on my device (a 27" 1080p desktop monitor), for what it's worth in sample size. Regards,
  Contact me | Contributions
  ). 04:27, 9 February 2022 (UTC)
• Option A as the one that's sharpest, and thus most visible to me without reading glasses. (Sadly, I have become old!) The softer definition on B makes it liable to bleed. Guettarda (talk) 15:50, 9 February 2022 (UTC)
• Option B; second best Option C (1080p desktop monitor) --Wickey (talk) 13:07, 12 February 2022 (UTC)
• Option A, the clearest for me. Paul August ☎ 01:03, 17 February 2022 (UTC)
• Option A is the best clean visual on my monitor and color settings. Carlosguitar ^{(Yes Executor?)} 01:56, 17 February 2022 (UTC)
• Option A The "PDF" text is fuzzy on Option B and C, at least on my monitor/color settings anyway. Some1 (talk) 19:37, 20 February 2022 (UTC)
• Note The RFC tag has expired and it's been over 10 days since the last comment, so I've requested closure at
  WP:ANRFC. Thryduulf (talk
  ) 16:48, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Something doesn't look right

@Barkeep49: thanks for your close above, but I'm not sure if it's been implemented correctly. I just viewed the article PlayStation (console) using Chrome on Windows 10, and the icon appears to be chopped off at the top and bottom. Please could you look into what's going on with that? I !voted for Option A above, but I didn't envisage it looking this way. Thanks  — Amakuru (talk) 10:52, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

This is already under discussion at Mediawiki talk:Common.css#Protected_edit_request_(3_March_2022). Basically, this has always been an issue, but the new icon makes it much more noticeable. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 10:55, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

Ah OK, thanks.  — Amakuru (talk) 11:21, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

The RfC implementation should be suspended and the new icon reverted, imo. It is conceivable that this rendering may have affected the result if known. Btw, the misshapen icon appears in Windows 10 and Mac 11 Edge, Chrome and Tor, Mac 11 Safari, and Ubuntu 20 Tor. It also appears in Android 11 desktop view in Edge and Chrome, but not the latest Tor app for Android 11. As of 15 minutes ago. 65.88.88.201 (talk) 17:22, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

It seems Tor 11.0.6 for Android 11 (kernel 4.19.157) desktop view scales the icon down, so it appears whole. 65.88.88.201 (talk) 18:03, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

On an old version of the Pale Moon web browser the icon also looks cut off, along with an old version of Tor browser. Works fine in Chrome, along with updated versions of Pale Moon and Tor. Rlink2 (talk) 18:59, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

As all three icons in the RfC have the same aspect ratio I believe that this issue (which certainly wasn't known to me when I started the RfC) I strongly suspect it will affect all identically so simply re-running the RFC would be pointless, we'd have to go back to evaluating more options (given the clear consensus for an image that isn't based on the Acrobat logo). A solution has been proposed at the MediaWiki talk page (where this discussion should be happening to keep it all in one place), that one other person has stated works for them (I don't understand it enough to test it myself). If that does solve the problem and can be implemented soon without side effect (I have no idea) then just doing that is going to be less disruptive than two additional changes of the icon. Thryduulf (talk) 21:00, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

If this is in reference to Trappist's solution, this probably affects <0.1% of the continuous rolling average of Wikipedia users, i.e. readers logged in (as handle-based accounts). 68.173.76.118 (talk) 00:56, 7 March 2022 (UTC)

Credit for the solution to the clipped-icon problem does not go to Trappist the monk. Credit for the solution (a tweak to Mediawiki:Common.css) goes to Editor Writ Keeper.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 01:48, 7 March 2022 (UTC)

(and also, to be clear, it hasn't actually been implemented yet.) Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 02:03, 7 March 2022 (UTC)

Can confirm that the icon now appears correctly in safari 15.3, MacOS 11.6.4. 68.173.76.118 (talk) 01:26, 7 March 2022 (UTC)

I came here to report the same problem. I've tried doing a hard refresh but the top and bottom of the PDF icons are still getting cut off. Modest Genius ^talk 15:11, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

Weirdly, it now seems to have fixed itself. Modest Genius ^talk 15:25, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

A fix was implemented at MediaWiki_talk:Common.css#Protected_edit_request_(3_March_2022). --Ahecht (TALK
PAGE) 01:45, 24 March 2022 (UTC)

Dissociate Fiction from Non-Fiction on the Wikipedia platform

This is somewhere in realm of

WP:SNOW. --Izno (talk

) 17:17, 27 March 2022 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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While fiction-related articles, such as motion pictures, books, comics & animation in general are readily available on the en.wikipedia.org domain, which is very useful for various people, the proposal is for them to be migrated on another domain of Wikipedia, perhaps on another server as well, so that they do not get mixed up during a search, and also to better distinguish the objective nature of Wikipedia from the fiction-oriented one. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Barracuda stew (talk • contribs) 09:45, 23 March 2022 (UTC)

• I propose that folks who make proposals here sign their own posts first. ;-) BusterD (talk) 09:54, 23 March 2022 (UTC)
• Is it not possible to write objectively about fiction?
  Phil Bridger (talk
  ) 10:48, 23 March 2022 (UTC)
• I approve, but only if we start with the Bible and Hamlet. ;) —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 11:00, 23 March 2022 (UTC)
• Don't see why this is needed. Fictional articles should be written in a way that clearly portrays that they're fictional, if not then they should be tagged for cleanup. Joseph2302 (talk) 11:47, 23 March 2022 (UTC)

Please, don't feed the trolls
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Please include articles that are poorly referenced, unreferenced, or with unverified references. They are also fiction. 68.173.76.118 (talk) 11:54, 23 March 2022 (UTC) No they aren't- they're articles on factual things that need improving.... Joseph2302 (talk) 11:58, 23 March 2022 (UTC) And how is one to know these things are factual? That's supposition. The fact is, absent proof they're fiction. 68.173.76.118 (talk) 12:01, 23 March 2022 (UTC) It is trivially easy for an article to be both poorly referenced and proven factual. For example an article that is supported only by non-independent sources and makes no un-attributed subjective claims. We can't say it's notable, but we can certainly say it's not fiction. Thryduulf (talk) 14:17, 23 March 2022 (UTC) ??? an article that is supported only by non-independent sources and makes no un-attributed subjective claims = article that has no independent sources and makes subjective claims (attributed to these non-independent sources) = that is somebody's fictional (opinion/imagination/etc-based) take. Non-fact (ie POV) dressed up in "references". 65.88.88.93 (talk) 16:01, 23 March 2022 (UTC) That doesn't follow at all. Non-independent sources can be used to verify objective statements and to verify attribution of claims. For example, say the article is about XYZ Ltd and the sources are (1) the company website, (2) a company press release and (3) an advert for the company in a major newspaper, the article also contains three photographs showing (a) the company headquarters, (b) one of their products ("XYZ Super") with branded packaging, and (c) a celebrity (Fred Bloggs) using one of the products. The claims in the article are (i) that there is a company called XYZ Ltd, (ii) with a CEO called Jane Doe, (iii) that is headquarted in Anytown, (iv) that makes a product called "XYZ Super", (v) that is advertised as being "The greenest on the market", and (vi) that it is used by celebrities including Fred Bloggs. Claim i is verified by sources 1-3 and photos a-c, claim ii is verified by 1 and 2, claim iii is verified by 1 and a, claim iv by 1-3, b and c, claim v by 3, and claim vi by c. i.e. everything is factual. Notability is not demonstrated, but that's entirely different. "Non-fact" and "POV" are not synonyms, non-independent is not synonymous with either "non-fact" or "POV". "Opinion" and "fiction" are not synonyms either. Thryduulf (talk) 18:51, 23 March 2022 (UTC) What you demonstrated in the first paragraph is an example of using primary sources to establish certain facts about the sources themselves, an appropriate and narrow application. This is not contested, and it was not part of the argument made in this section. The problem is parts of the second paragraph. Facts are not points of view. They are whole, not just the aspect(s) one knows about or the aspect(s) that one prefers. A fact implies the full view, not one's limited perspective. There is no such thing as "almost factual". That is a an easy way out, an attempt at making something partial and limited equal to the whole. Maybe this kind of mediocrity is accepted because the alternative is really hard work. But unfortunately, in any mix of fact and fiction/opinion/theory/POV the latter wins out. The mix produces yet more non-fact. I leave it to your judgement to decide whether any non-independent position or source can ever substitute or even relate to facts which are by definition independent of perspective. And if they are not facts, they are opinions, POVs and non-facts. This shouldn't be so hard. After all there are very few facts compared to the hyperinflation of opinions. But the overabundance is not the reason opinions are worthless. They are inherently worthless, because they have a limited perspective. That is a useful fact to know. You can proceed more realistically from there, perhaps even produce a better encyclopedia. 65.88.88.57 (talk) 19:53, 23 March 2022 (UTC) Most of that is meaningless. There are no points of view in the sample I wrote, other than those which are clearly attributed (i.e. it is factual that the company claims this, it is not relevant whether the claim is true). An article which relies solely on primary and non-independent sources is poorly sourced. My point is to demonstrate that not all poorly sourced articles are fiction (which is what you were claiming). You also claimed that unsourced articles are fiction - it is entirely possible to write an entirely unsourced article that is self-evidentially factual not fictional - for example an article listing the conversions of 1 metre into various other units of length. Thryduulf (talk) 21:55, 23 March 2022 (UTC) As pointed out, the sample you wrote which utilized primary sources, is not contested. What is contested is eg an article supposedly listing length conversions without any sources to prove that the conversions are in fact correct. An article like that is a work of fiction as far as anyone can tell. 98.7.206.190 (talk) 22:04, 23 March 2022 (UTC) You are still not getting that "Unreferenced" and "Fiction" are not synonyms. If I could change fiction to fact just by adding a citation, I could therefore change fact to fiction just by removing a citation. The world doesn't work like that. Thryduulf (talk) 22:07, 23 March 2022 (UTC) We are talking about Wikipedia, a platform of anonymous contributors with unknown credentials and expertise, whose audience is the general reader, another quantity of unknown credentials and expertise, individually and in aggregate. The prudent and rational approach is to assume/presume nothing else about both groups. In such situations, unverified claims are no different from fiction. Without a proper reference, there is no prior or implied guarantee that they are factual. A reader may justifiably think they are just things somebody came up with, and very easily posted in some online platform. And let the buyer beware. 68.173.76.118 (talk) 00:05, 24 March 2022 (UTC) I don't think this is relevant to the proposal, which was clearly concerned with fiction as an art form, rather than anything to do with whether articles have independent reliable sources. Phil Bridger (talk ) 19:31, 23 March 2022 (UTC) The point was that articles that are not verified as having independent reliable references are works of "art". Fiction, for all a reader knows. Maybe they belong in a fiction-publishing platform instead. This is said in all seriousness. The harm that half-truths and opinions can do when presented as facts is great. The proper usage of primary sources was noted above, and is not part of this. 65.88.88.57 (talk) 20:01, 23 March 2022 (UTC)

• Reject - there is no purpose served by this suggestion. The fictions which entertain us are part of our big, complex global culture, as much as our history, politics and religious/philosophical systems. As has already been pointed out, any article about a fiction which does not make it clear from the first sentence that this is fiction, is a junk article. --Orange Mike | Talk 13:24, 23 March 2022 (UTC)
• Reject While I agree that it would be nice to be able to tune search so that whole genres could be omitted, and the people looking for Mercury from respectiely an astronomy, chemistry, religion and space flight perspective could more easily find what they want; I don't see further subdivision of Wikipedia as a good way to do this. Our strength is in being a general interest encyclopaedia, and that means covering the topics that don't interest each of us individually as well as the ones that do. This particular proposal also suffers from boundary issues, many religions might be glad to categorise other religions as fictional, but incensed if that was done to them. The same sort of thing would apply if we tried to spin off sport as something separate, just imagine the arguments as to whether darts, golf, chess, professional wrestling or even punt jousting were real sports. ϢereSpielChequers 11:09, 24 March 2022 (UTC)
• Question: How often do readers end up on an article about a work of fiction when they are searching for something non-fictional? Some examples might help us determine whether this is a serious issue (or not). Blueboar (talk) 11:35, 24 March 2022 (UTC)
• Agree with those above suggesting a can of worms when it comes to mythology and religion and folkloric history. Hyperbolick (talk) 12:45, 24 March 2022 (UTC)
• Reject - fiction exists, it is a "real world" thing. We should, and do, strive to present any work of fiction from a real-world perspective, with limited and (hopefully) clearly demarcated "in universe" material. Also, to take the OP's idea to the extreme, if we do not cover fiction (ie novels, films, tv shows, comic books, etc), then the articles about the people who create these fictions and the companies that distribute them and the fan communities that celebrate them, etc. would be pretty scant at best. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 14:24, 24 March 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Science Photo Competition 2022 Russia targeting CentralNotice banner

On April 2, the «Science Photo Competition 2022» started, traditionally the photo marathon is being held jointly with the Nauka television channel, it will be interesting. We invite everyone who is interested in science and who is able to hold a camera in their hands. The rules of the contest are very simple, prizes have a place to be! Colleagues, to attract external participants, we proposed a banner of the competition through CentralNotice. JukoFF (talk) 19:33, 28 March 2022 (UTC)

Android related question for developers

Moved to

WP:VPT#Android related question for developers. --Izno (talk

) 23:31, 28 March 2022 (UTC)

Adding no-wrap to hatnote links: low-involvement testers needed for proposed change

We need some volunteers at Template talk:Further#Volunteer sign-up to help assess a proposed change to hatnote link wrapping. This will take very little of your time. A proposal at Template talk:Further#Adding nowrap calls for no-wrapping links in hatnotes to prevent undesirable line breaks in the middle of a link, such as:

Further information: World War II, Events preceding World War II in Europe, and Causes of World War
II

This currently may happen in a hatnote link such as in template {{Further}} where a link happens to bump up against your window's right margin, or a right-floated sidebar or other element. Implementation would involve a simple change to Module:Hatnote, but as this represents a change to the current behavior of a high risk template, we don't wish to make such a change lightly. Fortunately, the module already has an optional class which permits this to be tested in situ with a simple addition to your common.css, as follows:

.hatnote a {white-space: nowrap;} /* Test for nowrap hatnote links */

We are seeking volunteers to add this line to your css, and then just go about your business as before. In around a month or so (or whatever period seems right), we'll ping you and ask for your comments, and if feedback is supportive, we'll make the change to the module. If you can help, please add your name at Template talk:Further#Volunteer sign-up so we can contact you later for your impressions. Thanks, Mathglot (talk) 20:09, 27 March 2022 (UTC)

Sounds to me like it would give undesirable horizontal scrolling for people on mobile devices when links are long. Anomie⚔ 21:36, 27 March 2022 (UTC)

That's the first thing I thought as well. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 21:58, 27 March 2022 (UTC)

I presume that one of the reasons for this testing is to show whether that issue commonly arises.

Phil Bridger (talk

) 08:12, 28 March 2022 (UTC)

Probably the better final implementation (I make no comment on whether preventing nowrapping in hatnotes is desirable) would be to use nowraplinks already defined in Common.css. Mobile.css is more generous with how it treats that class which would take care of the mobile concern. Izno (talk) 23:27, 28 March 2022 (UTC)

@

Phil Bridger:, yes, exactly. @Izno:, yes, it is; this is only the test phase; please see the linked discussion. Please do have a look and sign up; it would really help. Thanks, Mathglot (talk

) 09:46, 29 March 2022 (UTC)

I see nothing in the linked discussion that indicates it's not a problem. Your claim near the start that it's "already the default behavior on mobile" is confused by the fact that your example is in a fixed-width box. Anomie⚔ 11:22, 29 March 2022 (UTC)

nowrap is bad. It's a webpage, they are supposed to wrap flexibly and you cannot predict all the content and all the widths that this content is rendered at. Every time ppl introduce more nowrap, it is just waiting for the next report where it has broken something else. In my opinion it should never be used for anything over say.... 10 characters long. —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 09:48, 30 March 2022 (UTC)

Proposal for Template:Template help

Hi everyone, I realise that we have templates such as {{Help me}} & {{Admin help}} that categorises the pages where it is used, so that other editors/admins can respond to their queries. Now, I also realise that even unprotected templates (& template styles/modules) can sometimes be very complicated for the average editor to understand or edit. Currently, for them to seek help or suggest a reasonable change, they'd have to ask other editors directly on their talk page. I think a template {{Template help}}, like Admin help would be much efficient & useful for such editors seeking help. Thanks! ---CX Zoom(^he/_him) (^{let's talk}|_contribs) 07:14, 26 March 2022 (UTC)

They can ask at the

technical village pump. Graham87

09:09, 27 March 2022 (UTC)

I believe it's better to separate mere requests for help from technical village pump, the way we separate requests for admin help from Administrator's noticeboard. Thoughts? ---CX Zoom(^he/_him) (^{let's talk}|_contribs) 09:27, 27 March 2022 (UTC)

An interesting idea. It would neatly identify and collate the request, and ping the watchlists of those who maintain that template. On the other hand, it would take the request off VPT which is watched by many people who could help and might not monitor the category. Certes (talk) 11:46, 27 March 2022 (UTC)

This is not me opposed to the idea, but what's wrong with using {{help me}} in these situations? Primefac (talk) 12:21, 27 March 2022 (UTC)

Great idea. Articles can be edited by almost anyone, whereas editing most templates requires skill in coding. I used to use {{edit request}} on templates (as instructed in the header of protected templates) and was often rejected as 1. establish consensus (even for non-controversial changes) or 2. failure to say "change x to y" (which requires specialized coding skill). I've since learned to look though the history for an TE that has recently worked on the template or ping someone I know is likely/willing to make the change. It would never ask for this kind of help at VPT, and {{help me}} is similarly general. I'm sure a specific cat for template help would be monitored by prolific template editors with the right skills and interests. MB 17:03, 27 March 2022 (UTC)

• Instead of a new template it would be good to have a mechanism to alert users that questions can be asked at
  WT:WPT (WikiProject Templates). That way, multiple people will see the question and be able to respond. Johnuniq (talk
  ) 22:13, 27 March 2022 (UTC)

  I think that's a better option; I have too many cats to keep track of as it is, and honestly the only reason I'm able to respond to {{help me}} requests is because there's a bot in the -helpers IRC channel that pings whenever someone's used it. Primefac (talk) 09:37, 28 March 2022 (UTC)

  I understand that this would add to the number of tasks many editors have to keep an eye on. But, as Certes notes above, this system would ping the template's maintainers' watchlists to review the requested changes themselves, allowing them to review the requested change. Maybe we can add one more task to the bot which pings the IRC if there is some backlog, say 5 requests, using this template. Or when, a request is unanswered for, say 5 days, a bot automatically moves it to

  WP:VPT. ---CX Zoom(^he/_him) (^{let's talk}|_contribs

  ) 21:05, 30 March 2022 (UTC)

Moving "Sitting Bull" to "Tatanka Iyotake"

Wrong venue. Use

WP:RM. —Kusma (talk

) 12:07, 1 April 2022 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

We need to known the real name, not the nickname. Please do this treatment to other languages of Wikipedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by CafeGurrier66 (talk • contribs) 10:31, 1 April 2022 (UTC)

No, we don't. We use the most common name, which in this case is "Sitting Bull". Not only that, but the name you want to use is literally the fourth and fifth words of the article at

Tatanka Iyotake redirects to the article at its current name. I suggest you close this section, as it's very unlikely to go anywhere. Happy days ~ Lindsay^Hello

11:31, 1 April 2022 (UTC)

Also, the proper process for move requests is

WP:RM, not here. Iffy★Chat

-- 11:50, 1 April 2022 (UTC)

Help

Use Support if you agreed or Oppose if you disagreed

Support

If you agreed, type your rational here

Oppose

If you do not agree, type here your rational CafeGurrier66 (talk) 10:31, 1 April 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Allow emails from brand-new users

Addressed at VPT. — xaosflux ^Talk 14:03, 1 April 2022 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

The word "brand-new users" in the preference should be wikilinked to "

WP:AUTOCONFIRM". (Context at Wikipedia:Village_pump_(technical)#"Allow_emails_from_brand-new_users") Venkat TL (talk

) 13:16, 1 April 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Proposal to extend April Fools Day

Narrator: "The Wikipedia community, aghast at the audaciousness of the proposal, is stunned into silence. They allow the opportunity to slip by without comment and it elapses." Trouts to all Whack! (non-admin closure) {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 04:52, 2 April 2022 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

So we sadly have less than half an hour left before April Fools Day ends and we all have to go back to be super serious editors. Given the unquestionable positive impact April Fools Day has had on our project and community, I consider this to be a shame. Further, like most years this April Fools Day fell over a school/work day, meaning many of our editors barely got to participate. In light of all of this, I think some changes are in order: we should extend the April Fools Day tomjerryfoolery to cover the entire month of April! Let me know what you all think please. Spirit of Eagle (talk) 23:35, 1 April 2022 (UTC) ^{[April Fools!]}

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Highlight the syntax highlighter with a ONE OFF message when we open the source editor

Tracked in Phabricator
Task T305424

I have been editing for years and only just found out by chance that there is a syntax highlighter. It seems that https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T288161 will probably turn it on by default for new accounts. But that it won't be obvious for existing users https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T174145

When someone opens the source editor but has syntax editing turned off could a ONE TIME message be displayed to ask whether we want to turn on syntax highlighting? Chidgk1 (talk) 07:04, 23 March 2022 (UTC)

This might be feasible, but I don't know which team would work on it. Let me ask around for a few days... Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 00:12, 25 March 2022 (UTC)

• @Whatamidoing (WMF): Are we still in the asking around "for a few days" frame? The idea seems worthy of consideration and shouldn't be archived (nine days) for lack of traffic if still being pursued. -- Otr500 (talk) 06:42, 2 April 2022 (UTC)

  I'd definitely like to see some movement on this. The community has made clear we like this feature, and the ball is now in the technical folks' court to either implement something or send a specific proposal for us to consider. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 06:54, 2 April 2022 (UTC)

This section should be excluded from archiving while this is being worked on. -- Otr500 (talk) 08:25, 2 April 2022 (UTC)

Sorry about the delay. We have some progress (phab:T305424) but no promises of real action. This is one of those small requests that no team is actively assigned to handle. I haven't encountered any significant opposition to the idea, but I also haven't found anyone volunteering to make sure that it happens soon. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 02:44, 5 April 2022 (UTC)