Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)/Archive 98

It seems that there are a number of articles on Wikipedia which violate

Good spot, just search for the phrase and remove or if appropriate external link them. ϢereSpielChequers 07:16, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Wikidata interwiki RFC. --Rschen7754 09:37, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

Hi.

This is a proposal to show the article rating on top of each page. This way users can have directly an idea if the article is trustworthy or not. There are so many articles on wikipedia that are containing false/not neutral/biased information because they are being hijacked/monopolized by people that have an interest in promoting their point of view on the subject. Rating the article is a good way to unmask these improper articles! Thank you! Dzjorrit (talk) 12:08, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

Interesting. We already have a rating system in place, which is shown for just good, featured and stubs. What if the B and C classes are also displayed at the top of the page.

talk

) 13:12, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

For registered users, there is the

metadata gadget; see the line "Display an assessment of an article's quality as part of the page header for each article. (documentation)" --Izno (talk

) 14:43, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

I think he means something like that gadget but for everyone. ~~Ebe123~~ → report 16:20, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

No, showing only the rating results of the system that is now on the bottom of each article, clearly visible on top of the article should be fine enough! It would greatly improve the interaction between Wikipedia and it's users and would make users more aware that they are part of our common knowledge that Wikipedia is trying to represent.Dzjorrit (talk) 16:50, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

Um what rating results?

talk

) 16:52, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

WP:Article Feedback Tool. Did you disable it in your preferences, by any chance?—Emil J. 17:07, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

On any article page on the bottom there is a grey box called 'Rate this page' with a link on the right 'View page ratings'. These ratings should be visible on top of the page so the user can see them clearly when the page opens.Dzjorrit (talk) 17:56, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

Oh. That rating. Can anyone just link to some excellent, good, average and poor articles here so that we can gauge whether the ratings actually describe the state of the article?

talk

) 18:14, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

I am quite fond of the gadget that Izno mentions, and I would endorse its implementation as an opt-out rather than opt-in. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 10:52, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

I found out that not all articles have ratings enabled for them. Like China and India.

Here are some that I found -

• Albert Einstien
  GA,2400 votes - 4.1 4.0 4.1 4.1
• Earth FA,1000 votes - 3.5 3.5 3.5 3.6

talk

) 18:22, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

I can give as example the Dorje Shugden page. There are 2 groups that have different opinions about this subject. The New Kadampa sect thinks Shugden is a Dharma protector, and the followers of the Dalai Lama think it is a negative spirit. But the article is clearly controlled by the New Kadampa people. And this also shows clearly in the 'Trustworthy' and 'Objective' index (1.9 and 2.0). The disclaimer of Wikipedia states clearly that it is not guaranteeing the quality of the content. But the very least it should do is showing what the average opinion is of the users about each article.Dzjorrit (talk) 18:53, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

13 ratings is not a valid starting point for ratings. 100 might be; Over 250 will definitely be. Why not single out only those articles with over 250 ratings so we can find out exactly if the quality of the article is represented in its ratings?

talk

) 19:48, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

Since there is no threshold for publishing an article, and there is no way for an user to find out if it is trustworthy, I don't see why there should be a threshold for publishing ratings. Also this will encourage more users to also give ratings. An other idea is to look at the different votes, if they are all almost giving the same ratings then we know an article is either good or bad. But if a lot of users give it a bad rating and a lot of users give it a good rating then we know this article subject is probably highly controversial and there should definitely a warning being displayed on top of the article page warning the user that the contents are likely to be very subjective. Wikipedia is more and more getting a bad name for hosting wrong/controversial information, it is very important that users get proper feedback about the content of each article! Only by properly informing users, Wikipedia can live up to it's reputation as the major source of information on internet.Dzjorrit (talk) 22:27, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

The question is why to use ratings given by "readers" when you can use those given by "editors"? Readers may look at at a one-sided controversial article where they know about only one side, and give high ratings to it, not knowing how bad the article is. Or they may be shocked to find the opposing view given (in well-written controversial articles) and give it low ratings. What would be the primary advantage in having single time readers give those ratings than experienced editors?

talk

) 10:01, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

We all know that there is no absolute truth, we all have our own truth and slowly adjust what we think is true by interacting with other peoples opinions. There is no guarantee that the opinion of an editor has more truth then a visitor. The only way to come close to the 'real' truth is by having a democratic system in place. It would be even better if Wikipedia would give space to each point of view about a controversial subject. Now a controversial article is just showing the opinion of the group that has the most 'power' over the article. It is really bad to present a limited point of view (even if it is well written) as the general accepted truth.Dzjorrit (talk) 10:37, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

That is one of the most dubious statements that has ever been labeled "We all know". No, we don't all "know" that there is no absolute truth or that we all have our own truth. Some of us believe in objective reality and the scientific method. And it is demonstrably untrue that Wikipedia articles show the opinion of the group that has the most 'power' over the article. That would be Reddit. We, on the other hand, have

WP:NPOV. --Guy Macon (talk

) 09:35, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

Dzjorrit, actually this Article Feedback Tool Version 4 "Rate this page" is not useful. It really isn't. There has been a lot of research and analysis: Article feedback/Research, User:Protonk/Article Feedback, wikimania2012 presentation and wikimania2012 video (30 min). Read it or watch the video with the slides for the details.

Now, you may ask yourself: if this tool is useless, why is it on 90% of english Wikipedia articles? That's a good question which was also asked on the mailinglist a year ago. Apparently, AFT4 is a kind of placeholder for AFT5 ("Did you find what you are looking for?"), which is a lot better. Cheers --Atlasowa (talk) 18:56, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

OK, the real issue is this: How do we prevent that an article is only showing the point of view on the subject of the group that has the most 'editing-power' over the article? Wikipedia is in some cases not democratic at all! Many article are not neutral or objective, visitors only are presented with one side of the subject and are not aware that they are not presented with an objective point of view (not everybody reads the wikipedia disclaimer).Dzjorrit (talk) 10:32, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

We already have enough distracting junk at the top of articles (fundraising banners, article problem banners, etc.); don't think we need more. Most people probably don't want to parse statistics before they read an article anyway... AnonMoos (talk) 02:51, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

We currently display when an article is really good (FA) and pretty good (GA). Why do we want to advertise when it is not so good yet.--

WP:FOUR

) 20:55, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

Oppose In most cases I encountered with the B-C-D-ranking, I have the idea this ranking system was also biased or at least flawed. It is good enough to state the GA and FA statuses and not display any more "distracting junk" at the top of articles. On top of that, the proposal is almost a guarantee for more edit wars and drama, as the hijackers and POV-pushers will fight to the last to prevent exposing their "work". The Banner talk 12:25, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose: If you want to see the ratings, there's a little thing you can click in your preferences that changes the title of the article a certain color depending on the rating (sky-blue for FA, olive for C, maroon for stub, etc). I think that's probably all we need
  p
  05:10, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

Oppose unlike the GA and FA rating system (that is not perfect) - all other classes are not unformed across all projects/people that rate pages. Thus may not accurately be rated. Moxy (talk) 05:15, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

Guys, he's not talking about B-class or Start-class or that sort of thing. He's talking about the old version of the

WP:Article feedback tool. That's the thing with the stars at the bottom of the page, and which gets excellent ratings if the readers like the subject (all the girls reading about this week's favorite teenage heartthrob) and lousy ratings if the readers dislike the subject (creationists reading about evolution or vice versa). It kind of works for neutral subjects (like Cancer, but not Alternative cancer treatments), but whether it provides useful information about the article depends on both the state of the article and the age and biases of the readers who are attracted to that page. For example, Alternative cancer treatments names almost 50 sources, almost all of which are significant peer-reviewed journal articles, scholarly books, or official statements from major drug regulating agencies, but it gets a rating of "Heavily biased" from most of the people who leave ratings, because it doesn't reassure them that whatever quackery or outright fraud they're interested in will surely cure them. WhatamIdoing (talk

) 23:03, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

Privacy and other concerns mean that we can't see who is watching an article, but how about some mechanism to see a simple count of how many people are watching an article? Edwardx (talk) 10:21, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

Near the top of the "History" tab there is a line of "external tools". One of these is labelled "Number of watchers", and it does roughly what you are asking for. When a page has fewer than 30 watchers, though, it just says "fewer than 30". I believe this is intended as a security measure. -- John of Reading (talk) 10:31, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, I'd forgotten about that. For example, this page has 2357 watchers. Alas, "fewer than 30" is not much help to me. Is there any good reason why we can't go down to, say, "fewer than 5", or is there some real security issue? Edwardx (talk) 11:13, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

The problem with giving an accurate count of how many people are watching an article all the time is that it would be a goldmine for vandals. If you're looking to find somewhere your vandalism won't be noticed all you have to do is pick an unwatched page. Admins do have Special:UnwatchedPages, but it isn't very useful as it only lists the first 1000 pages (which isn't enough to get past Al). Hut 8.5 11:15, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

Perhaps I underestimate them, but I really can't see vandals going to all that trouble. And I would speculate that going from 30 down to 5 would not assist even the most sophisticated vandal. Edwardx (talk) 11:27, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

There are certainly some vandals who would. There is a documented example of a banned user getting hold of a list of unwatched biographies of living people and inserting subtle vandalism into them just to see what would happen (the admin who gave them the list was subsequently desysopped). The fact that a page is watched doesn't mean that someone is monitoring it - it might be watched by a new editor or someone who hasn't edited for months. Consequently telling someone that a page has fewer than five watchers is nearly as bad as telling them it is unwatched. If the page has 30 or fewer watchers then there is a good chance it is watched by someone who knows what they are doing. Hut 8.5 11:51, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

Agreed. There really are two classes of vandals: kids that think inserting dirty words into an encyclopedia is funny, and those that seriously intend to cause harm. The latter group is small, but they are relatively clever and persistent.—Kww(talk) 17:53, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

Secrecy is a two edged sword, which is why in most matters Wikipedia works by openness. Like many of my fellow vigilantes, I am overloaded with over 5,000 watched pages. Last year, cutting that from 6,000 I started by looking at the watcher number but it was always "under 30" so I quit looking and just went by whether others had edited at least four times as many times as I had. Surely this method left some of them unwatched, or rather not effectively watched, but absent one piece of useful information we must decide by using what's available. Jim.henderson (talk) 03:26, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

Not sure if this is for mediawiki or here but is there a reason that Admins do not see the exact number, down to 0 and everyone else sees only down to 30? Apteva (talk) 03:47, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

this feature actually exists for some time (through adding "action=info" to the address line), and recently it became more readily available through adding "page information" link to the toolbox menu.

through the "page info" page, admins, or more precisely, anyone with "unwatchedpages" user right, can see the number of watchers (yes, all the way down to 0). other wikis, typically those with "patrollers" group, give the "unwatchedpages" user right to groups other than admins. if you think it's a good idea, you can create a new proposal to add "unwatchedpages" right to, e.g., "rollbackers" group on enwiki - if this will be done, rollbackers will be able to see how many people watch each page, all the way to 0. peace - קיפודנחש (aka kipod) (talk) 15:01, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

If you ask for your name to be added to this list and you have a TUSC account, you can find out exactly how many users watch a page with less than 30 watchers through the tool discussed above. The given number should be taken with a pinch of salt; it includes inactive users and editors who, for whatever reason, don't thoroughly check their watchlist. Graham87 10:53, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

I've got a TUSC account and been added to that list; what do I do now? --Anthonyhcole (talk) 18:58, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

There was a script that linked to a count of active users rather than all accounts. It seems to have quit working for me, though. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:25, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

I'd like to offer an idea for you to help with all the vetting and editing issues. This would be a simple color coding of the text that has been vetted, from that which hasn't. You could allow edits to remain both ways (in colors) until the vetting process works out the issues and declares what is "factual" and supported by being in black print. That way contested material is marked as so (by color) with the contested edits, and unconfirmed data is marked as so, too (by its color). and so too with vetted factually certified information. Thanks, Dave

You might look into WikiTrust. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:27, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

Following Wikipedia Gallery needs improvement,

I propose to import Wiki Commons "slideshow" button in the Image Gallery in the Wikipedia pages. I have found through informal survey that users find it difficult to browse through the images in any image gallery in the Wikipedia pages. They say that they have to open the pages corresponding to each of the images in another window/tab which is really painful.

Also in the wiki Commons slideshow overlay the font size is a bit abnormally large. Mohammadulhaque (talk) 17:59, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

So, it's a gadget? And you would need to activate it by setting account preferences? The Transhumanist 05:19, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

I think it should come by default , may be at one of the top corners in every image gallery.Mohammadulhaque (talk) 18:50, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

Here is a link to this GallerySlideshow gadget: commons:Help:Slideshow, and a direct link to try out: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Featured_pictures_on_Wikimedia_Commons?gsAutoPlay=1&gsDelay=10000&gsDir=desc&gsAutoStart=1&withJS=MediaWiki:Gadget-GallerySlideshow.js&withCSS=MediaWiki:Gadget-GallerySlideshow.css

I'm a bit wary about putting this Slideshow button in image galleries inside Wikipedia articles, when we don't yet offer the direct button to commons categories at the end of an image gallery (instead of end of the article page). Why not start with that? Or both options (commons /slideshow) in one field at the end of the gallery? --Atlasowa (talk) 15:13, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

Wikimedia Commons has media related to Featured_pictures_on_Wikimedia_Commons.

• 
  Startbutton for GallerySlideshow in commons
• 
  GallerySlideshow mode (images of a Category)
• 
  image gallery
• 
  "Wikimedia Commons has more media related to this, click here"

Oppose because I actually think that galleries should be deprecated and users pointed to commons, any images in wikipedia articles should be relevant and next to text they relate to and not grouped together. MilborneOne (talk) 23:50, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

I've just been editing an article that enjoys a very high "well-written" rating even though its introduction was constructed almost entirely from the most arcane scientific Latin with only the occasional English verb or article to hold it together. What's worse, the introduction dwelled on minutia, such as its having "lobopodia limbs that are poorly articulated," while failing to mention that it can live 10 years without food or water and 10 days in the vacuum of outer space.

This is an animal of wide interest, yet the introduction was slamming the door to all but experts already well steeped in post-grad zoology. Then, because these experts were the only ones likely to ever reach the bottom of the article, they were the only ones voting, and they were voting that the article was "well written," thereby obscuring a real problem.

We need a separate and distinct rating scale to indicate whether people who hold no advanced expertise in the field in question will at least be able to launch themselves into a given article. I don't propose we turn Wikipedia into The World Book. Anything but. I only suggest that we provide encouragement for people to write—or edit—introductions that are readable by a wide range of people, rather than a limited set of specialists. Many people, having read, understood, and become intrigued by a lucid introduction, will be willing to climb a mountain of verbiage that follows.

The reason I suggest using the term, "approachable," is because of its limited promise: Just because a lay person or younger student can "approach" a subject doesn't mean that he or she will be able to "master" it. Wikipedia is, after all, a watering hole for all of us, including experts, and experts may have taken decades to master the field about which they are writing. Articles should include dense, scientific information, much of which will remain inaccessible unless lay people are willing to invest significant time and energy. As long as the introductory material is accessible, overall complexity should never detract from a high "Approachable" rating and will, of course, continue to add to an article's "Complete" rating. Nor should it be a goal that each and every article be "approachable": Tens of thousands of articles are truly in the realm of experts, and there's no reason to make them approachable.

-tog — Preceding unsigned comment added by Toghome (talk • contribs) 23:27, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

The

WP:AFT5. WhatamIdoing (talk

) 00:47, 19 January 2013 (UTC)

The good news is that Wikipedia:Collaborations is trending upwards, and is getting 1200-1300 page views a month, up from 800-900. The bad news is the page is largely unused, and has been almost completely unchanged since 2007.

There are a handful of active wikiproject collaboration pages listed (a couple very active), however they are in the minority, and the average active lifespan of most collaboration pages is only a month or two.

I realize that the goal is to get editors to work together, but the current structure is doing very little in that regard. I vote we kill it with fire and build something else in it's place. --NickPenguin_(contribs) 05:18, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

• Question – build what? The Transhumanist 05:21, 16 January 2013 (UTC)
• Question – What would (whatever we would create) intend to achieve that
  WP:TAFI could not? -- Toshio Yamaguchi
  08:56, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

That's the main idea. The Collaborations page relies on many projects suggesting one article on one subject, while TAFI is proposing to suggest several articles across many subjects. As a single project, TAFI has the larger potential for impact on readership, and a greater chance to promote collaboration. I would propose that the Collaborations page be disassembled and recreated to promote primarily TAFI, and then secondarily the other active collaboration projects.

I think other areas could also be used to promote collaboration on this page, such as Delisted GAs, pending articles at GA reassessment and FA review, articles with the {FailedGA} tag, and Former FAs. The goal of the new page would be to select and promote collaborations, rather than describe that collaborations exist. --NickPenguin_(contribs) 18:47, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

Like. I like the idea.

talk

) 18:51, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

• Seeing that there are no major objections to this idea, I will begin adjusting the page. --NickPenguin_(contribs) 20:55, 19 January 2013 (UTC)

I would like to propose that a new wikipedia be established for articles intended to be machine-translated into multiple languages (a "multi-language wikipedia").

The general idea is that when an article is added to the multi-language wikipedia, it is automatically machine-translated from its source language into various target languages (English, French, German, Hebrew, Arabic, Swahili, etc), and the translated article is put into the various target language wikipedias (as many as possible).

The problem I am trying to solve is this: when I do a new article for the English wikipedia, that's very nice for English speakers, but not much use for non-English speakers. If I want to make that information available to speakers of other languages, I have to translate it, one language at a time. There are 285 wikipedia languages! I want to write it once and have it available for everybody at once.

The wiki source for such an article would have some constraints.

• The content of the articles would have to be restricted to the kind of simple text that reads well when machine translated. So editors would have to restrict themselves to short simple sentences.
• It would have to identify the source language that it is to be translated from (that is, the wiki source could be written in French or German or whatever, but it would have to identify itself so that the machine translator knows what to translate it from).
• It may be necessary to specify that some parts of the text are not to be translated, but instead remain in their original language (according to the needs of the article).

Machine translation is at a stage where probably the majority of wikipedia articles would not be suitable for automatic machine translation. But a large minority are. And if all of those articles were available to all languages, instead of just one, the reach of the wikipedias would be greatly increased, which would be a wonderful thing.

The kind of articles that I think would be suitable for the multi-language wikipedia are things like tables and lists. For example: List of sovereign states, Homo, List of Chinese monarchs, etc.

I'll note in passing that this is an example of a solution to a problem you get all the time in software engineering. A well-designed system will have a single place which is the definitive source of some knowledge, and you propagate it from that single source to everywhere that needs it. You shouldn't have to repeat yourself.

Ben morphett (talk) 23:26, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

A quick google search found meta:Wikipedia Machine Translation Project, which, although inactive, might be worth a look. —Theopolisme (talk) 03:11, 19 January 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for this lead. That was very helpful. I'll follow up on this. Ben morphett (talk) 21:19, 20 January 2013 (UTC)

By all means, no. The problem you are trying to solve does not exist. "The problem I am trying to solve is this: when I do a new article for the English wikipedia, that's very nice for English speakers, but not much use for non-English speakers." - wrong. The ones who do not know English can use Google Translate without Wikimedia Foundation or us lifting a finger.

And the "solution" would create more problems. One of the worst is that someone will want to update the articles automatically as well. And that will not go well...

The solution is simple: care about things that you can actually do (and do well). Leave everything else to someone else (God, Wikipedia's Community etc.). That's also the moral given in Matthew 6:34 ("Be not therefore solicitous for to morrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof.") or

My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic episode "It's About Time"... --Martynas Patasius (talk

) 10:20, 19 January 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I'm a big fan of Google Translate, and I use it from time to time. It solves some of this problem, but not all. It doesn't provide me with any lead about the things I don't that I don't know. For example, there may be a useful Hebrew article that is just what I want, which Google could translate for me, but it will probably never show up in my search results if there is no English article for it. And for non-English speakers, their corresponding problem will exclude them from most wikipedia information. (That said, I can see the huge attraction of passing the problem to Google - it means that we need take no action.) Ben morphett (talk) 21:19, 20 January 2013 (UTC)

Certainly the various languages do not have equal articles. de:Verdrillung and es:Presupuesto are bigger and better than their English counterparts, for example. However, machine translation is dreadful for most prose and we are better off leaving it to outsiders. As for data as often found in tables, Wikidata is a far more likely multilanguage bet. Jim.henderson (talk) 10:50, 19 January 2013 (UTC)

Indeed. The same is true for Pierre de Fermat and fr:Pierre de Fermat. The contrast there is so large that I wonder if I should take on as a project to translate the rest of it for English speakers (some time, if I ever have a spare few days!).

Thank you for the pointer to Wikidata. That was another very valuable lead. Ben morphett (talk) 21:19, 20 January 2013 (UTC)

I agree with Jim.henderson - machine translation is currently not of sufficient accuracy (if it ever can be), and will frequently result in misinformation, which is surely worse than no information. PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 11:14, 19 January 2013 (UTC)

I do take the point about the inadequacies of machine translation, but if the entire text to be translated is simple noun phrases, there has got to be a point at which the translations are at least correct (if not beautiful), and as such, good enough. Hasn't there? Ben morphett (talk) 21:19, 20 January 2013 (UTC)

There's another tack one can take on this. Fix the easily confused words that will appear to native speakers as almost cosmetic errors but which will throw a translation program, - I've been working on this for some while. But the next step would be to talk to the translation software engineers and ask if they'd like to collaborate re the words that their software finds ambiguous. I bet that Google could produce lists of sentences in Wikipedia articles that don't make sense to its translators, and if that were done we'd potentially have some big lists of things that probably need fixing anyway. ϢereSpielChequers 21:44, 20 January 2013 (UTC)

I would like to draw fellow editors' attention to a newly-opened bot proposal for correction of format drift of dates within citation templates at

Thanks, Legoktm (talk) 01:06, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

I propose to add a link to the top of all pages (where talk, preferences, watchlist etc. are) when you are logged in. This link would be

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:This_User/{{{1}}}&action=edit

There should be a possibility to easily specify the parameter {{{1}}} which is the name of the page to be created. Also, User:This_user should be the name of the account under which a user is logged in (I think this could be accomplished using a magic word). The rationale for this change is that this would make the creation of user subpages for userspace drafts easier, especially for newbies (well, it's not actually that difficult right now, but from the perspective of a newbie, this might be different).

It might also be useful to provide a link to [1] at the top, which I currently achieve by having

$( document ).ready( function() {
 mw.util.addPortletLink(
   'p-personal',
   mw.util.wikiGetlink( 'Special:PrefixIndex/User:' ) + mw.config.get( 'wgUserName' ),
   'Subpages',
   'pt-mysubpages',
   'Show your subpages',
   null,
   '#pt-preferences'
 );
});)

in my common.js.

The overall goal is to encourage more use of subpages and make this easier for newer users. I think this should be activated for all users (as otherwise most newbies wouldn't be aware of it) and an option to opt-out be provided for users who want to disable this (either as a script or in user preferences).

Regarding the technical details of the implementation, I am not sure where the link would have to be specified and how it could be achieved that a user can easily specify the name of the subpage to be created (maybe a more Media-Wiki-Tech savvy user knows the answer to this). -- Toshio Yamaguchi 15:53, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

two different subjects here. let's take them one by one, starting with the last (link to personal subpages): IMO, it's more useful to have a "subpages" link on *any* page, not just for "my subpages". this way, when one want to see one's own subpages, one clicks on the username, and then on "subpagess". imho, the proper place for this link is in the toolbox, so what you want is something like:

mw.util.addPortletLink('p-tb', mw.util.wikiGetlink('Special:PrefixIndex/' + wgPageName), 'Subpages');

as to a new link for new draft creation: we already have a "Sandbox" link at the top. what we do in hewiki, is adding to the "Sandbox" link an "Editintro", which contains, by using an "InputBox" tag, a very easy way for the user to select a name and begin edit of a new personal subpage. after all, what you describe is basically a "sandbox" with a different name, so the "sandbox" link makes sense. while doing so, we also changed the wording: instead of calling it "Sandbox", which is very common use in software development, but which some users found offensive ("i am not a little child, so don't send me to play in a sandbox"), we called it "Draft", which many people found more appealing.

peace - קיפודנחש (aka kipod) (talk) 16:42, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

• I would recommend against making it super easy to create millions of scattered content forks and page sandboxes. Apteva (talk) 20:59, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
• Agreed, with Apteva above. The idea looks fine at first glance, but... There is a non-negligible risk that we'll end up with users creating well intentioned forks, work on them a couple of days, and then paste on the original article, deleting all contributions made in between. - Nabla (talk) 21:24, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

every time we introduce a tool, we run the risk of it being used inappropriately/abused. with confidence very close to certainty, i can say that removing the "edit" link at the top of the page will reduce vandalism. still, this is not good enough reason to actually remove those little "edit" links. making it easier for users to create sandboxes/draft pages will bring with it problems of its own, like the ones you guys pointed to. however, as long as enwiki sports the "Sandbox" link at the top of the page by default for every registered user, it makes sense to help those users to also create a named "sandbox". peace - קיפודנחש (aka kipod) (talk) 22:37, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

• Agree generally w/ Apteva and Nabla. If users want to make a draft, what's wrong with Special:MyPage/Sandbox? Similarly, I don't know that we want to encourage the unnecessary creation of a gazillion userspace drafts - many articles can be created in mainspace just fine. For those that don't, changing the speedy deletion rules to prefer userification in certain cases would be a more productive change. – Philosopher ^{Let us reason together.} 14:09, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
• Or Special:MyPage/Draft, but you get my point. – Philosopher ^{Let us reason together.} 14:10, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

The Wikimedia Foundation is profiting immensely and has a large amount of net assets already, which could be put to better use rather than merely sitting in a bank. Sure, some of this money would likely be used for future capital expenses such as more servers and better Internet connectivity, but at the present time much of the tremendous proceeds from donation are being unused. In fact, Wikipedia for function for 14 months and ten days in its current state (no more than the current rate of capital expenses) in the complete absence of further donations. The ten million dollars in gains to net assets made by the WMF could be used for the purpose of creating a "Wikimedia Scholarship" for particularly distinguished editors from emerging economies.

While Meta may seem the place to propose such an action, I am discussing it here as a large group of potential editors attracted by this program would come from former colonies of the British Empire, where English is often an official language. It is because this program will have a particularly large impact (and likely the largest impact) on this project that the discussion should be conducted here.

This project is aimed primarily at the poorest in these countries, rather than members of the urban middle classes. One hundred editors from emerging countries (as determined by oversighters, based on their contributions to the encyclopedia, will be entitled to receive $75,000 in order to make improvements to the life of their community, with a preference for making information technology more accessible to the rural poor but which can be used to improve the community in any way it so chooses.

The benefits from such a technology should be enormous. Combined with the concurrent shift to improving mobile access to Wikimedia sites, this program should enable a large number of contributors in emerging countries to contribute to the encyclopedia and give a different perspective and new information that the white, Western, male-dominated encyclopedia we have now would not see. People of diverse ethnicities and religions would join our encyclopedia, thus improving our coverage of topics related to those subjects and making our encyclopedia more neutral. Overall, Wikipedia would gain a new lease of life after years of declining editorship and low rates of article creation. Wer900 • talk 02:24, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

I'm not commenting on the proposal, but I don't think the name makes much sense. A scholarship typically pays for education; you're describing a grant. Ntsimp (talk) 18:24, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

...and note that the WMF grants program was recently launched, and indeed is being advertised on sitenotices at the moment. Andrew Gray (talk) 16:56, 20 January 2013 (UTC)

And how many of us would continue to work for nothing if we did that? Britmax (talk) 17:15, 20 January 2013 (UTC)

I reject the idea that having a reasonably-sized capital reserve is something the Foundation need to change. It gets people's knickers in a twist (because "OMG they don't need money, they've got all this money in the bank!"), but it's actually sound fiscal planning. Grants are a good thing. They already exist. If you want one, or you can think of an idea for one, go get one from the Foundation or from a Chapter. —Tom Morris (talk) 01:04, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

• • In the UK the
    Charity Commission, the government regulator, recommends that all charities maintain reserves equivalent to 12 months running expenses, a position that WMF has I think only reached after the latest fundraiser. Many older charities and colleges in the US have endowments that would last them far longer. No doubt WMF could still afford some money in this direction, but I won't comment on the proposal here, just don't lets have more moaning about money sitting in a bank etc. When you have 100+ employees you have to act responsibly. Johnbod (talk
    ) 04:51, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

In practice, nominators almost never add deletion sorting tags to their own nominations. I have boldly removed that line from AFDHOWTO... — This, that, and the other (talk) 10:51, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

Thank you. -- Toshio Yamaguchi 12:01, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

Hi. My issue is concerning user 89.98.37.96, who has edited a clfew abba related articles so far, falsifying information, and heaviky poving it towards Agnethac(the blonde one). Layer editors to tone of the pages havent reverted the edits creatibg a bi of a mess. As i am not in a position to go through all the mess and fix up the damae, i request that someone here gives it a peak. I KNOW IS PROB NOT THE RIGHT FORUM BUT I COULDNT THINK OF WHERE ELSE TO GO AT THIS TIME. IN ADDITION TO THIS, I THINK TGE USER MUST BE EXPLAINED THE RUKES AND IF THIS PURSISTS HE MAY NEED TO BE BLOCKED. Thankyou for reading this :). (btw i only realised now that a lot of my comment was in capslock. Sorry abiut that. Its so hard to edit wikioedia when on ones phone.....)--Coin945 (talk) 20:00, 20 January 2013 (UTC)

I posted this to the correct forum, here. GenQuest ^{"Talk to Me"} 19:46, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

Dear Sirs, Just as Wikipedia has recently started Wikivoyage; so exactly,it is important that there is a page like: Wiki-index of on-line-scientific-papers, because: You know that editors of peer-reviewed-journals are not always free from weaknesses like greed. If an article submitted to a journal is of an average significance, then the editor sends it for peer-review; and publishes it in the journal. But if the submitted article is highly significant, then the editor rejects it without sending it for review, saying that it is too speculative, or it is out of scope of the journal...etc. And after some time one finds the same content has got published by some other author written in different words. So, Wikipedia can contribute to faster progress of science by publishing only the URL-links of papers placed by the scientists at their own web-site. Such links can be classified into different subjects, topics like it is done by the journals. Publishing of only the URL will not consume much space, but it will lead to faster progress of science, encourage true researchers; and nullify selfish, greedy motives of those un-deserving occupiers of editor's posts. There are sites like arXiv, but one requires another person as endorser. Wikipedia has recently started Wikivoyage. Similarly, there can be Wiki-index of URLs of on-line-scientific-papers. This is what i, being a pensioner, can contribute to Wikipedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 123.201.22.184 (talk) 12:05, 21 January 2013‎

Are you aware of Wikiversity? This proposal might be within their scope. If not, new projects can be proposed at meta:Proposals for new projects. – Philosopher ^{Let us reason together.} 17:49, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

I made a bot request concerning violations of

One unresolved issue with cite error messages is that users with a language set to other than en see the default message in the selected language without the link to the help page. I have a solution for at least the top used languages— see the discussion at Help talk:Cite errors#Broken ref: language support. --— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk 13:50, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

Interesting problem, but how would a solution work? Is it even possible to have page content (rather than user interface elements) be made dependent on the user's id and preferences? I was under the impression that, since page content gets computed and cached centrally for all users, making it dependent on who is currently viewing it is pretty much impossible, at least without the use of client-side Javascript. Last time I looked, it wasn't even possible to make a template display the username of the user who views it. Fut.Perf. ☼ 14:44, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you mean by "page content" here. This only applies to MediaWiki message pages.

When a user selects language in their preferences, the MediaWiki software then switches all MediaWiki messages to a localized version. For example if you select the default of English (en) add references to a page and forget to add {{reflist}}, then Cite calls the error message at MediaWiki:Cite error refs without references which shows as:

MediaWiki:Cite error refs without references

But, if you select Spanish (es) as your language, then MediaWiki adds /es to all messages, so the error at MediaWiki:Cite error refs without references/es is called:

MediaWiki:Cite error refs without references/es

You can use Special:AllMessages to see system messages. MediaWiki ships with defaults that can be customized. When you look at AllMessages, the defaults without custom are clear; defaults with custom are yellow and the custom message is green. Since the messages are built into MediaWiki, the name will be red linked for default and blue linked for custom. There is a pulldown to select the language.

For our example, see Cite error refs without references. As you browse through the languages, only English has a custom message (and Spanish since I have been testing with it) because we added links to help pages.

A common complaint is that an editor encounters the error and asks how to fix it on the Help Desk. Since I am the prime architect of those help pages, I like to get feedback as to why the help page did not work. The most common cause is the language issue, as the defaults don't have the help page link.

For another example, check out MediaWiki:Newarticletext, which has also been customized.[2]

--— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk 15:21, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

Everytime I ask someone (online friend etc) to see my edit count page (though I do it very rarely), I have to explain that "deleted count" does not mean someone deleted those edits because they were not helpful. Simply, those pages don't exist now. Seeing the deleted count is increasing is a pain.
Please remove it from TParis's count tool, other count tool etc. OR mention clearly everywhere where "deleted edit count" is given that "deleted edit count" does not necessarily mean "unhelpful contribution" OR rename it as "Past edits", "Not in record edits" or something so. --Tito Dutta (talk) 13:13, 19 January 2013 (UTC)

I don't this it should be removed completely, but maybe have a question mark next to it which when clicked explains what the deleted edit count is. ·Add§hore· ^{Talk To Me!} 16:33, 19 January 2013 (UTC)

They are edits that have been deleted and then counted, so "deleted edit count" makes perfect sense to me. I would also note that I think I appreciate seeing it on the tool. As for ambiguity, a short note in hover-over or clickable text would make some sense, but consider that even if we changed it to "positive contributions which were deleted" (which we wouldn't, ofc), you'd still have to explain that to your friends. – Philosopher ^{Let us reason together.} 13:53, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

"Edits to pages that were later deleted" might be a simple enough description, but you need to talk to TParis. That tool is "his", not "ours". WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:12, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

Keep in mind that having a substantial deleted edit count is actually usually considered a positive. If someone shows up at (for example) RFA and has a bunch of deleted edits, it probably means they've done a fair amount of accurate speedy-tagging of articles. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 17:43, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

Hello, Sometimes I have to use your website from Office or Cyber Café or Library. There are many hackers surrounding me who use key logger softwares and other techniques. So I am all-time worried. I hope you will provide OpenID service like “Sign in with Google” AND "Login with Facebook" including others. I use it to login to www.mail.yahoo.com by my Google Account based on “One Google Account : One Yahoo Account” policy. Anyone can login to Yahoo’s website without password just by clicking on “Sign in with Google”. Google uses 2-step verification method which is the state of the art security against key-logger. ALSO ENSURE “FULL ACCOUNT” SUPPORT FOR THOSE WHO WILL USE OPEN ID LOGIN. Wish you good luck. Thanks, Tawhidur Rahman Dear

The founder of Wikipedia has already said he does not want OpenID here. Although we can discuss it again, the consensus will probably be to not implement OpenID. If you have a specific security improvement you would like, feel free to email securitywikimedia.org . I think they could reply well. ~~Ebe123~~ → report 20:12, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

Could you link to Wales' statement on the issue? Rmhermen (talk) 17:27, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

Personally, I'm not aware of such a statement from Wales. The issue is currently tracked at T11604. Kaldari (talk) 21:49, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

• As a general practice, you should use the https:// version of the site, not the http:// version. Some users who are particularly worried about this have alternate accounts for when they are editing from a public location. – Philosopher ^{Let us reason together.} 18:27, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

I might be mistaken. I just remember from somewhere... ~~Ebe123~~ → report 23:49, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

Good day, all. I just came from the Legalism (Chinese Philosophy) page. As I am currently in a East Asian Thought class, and we just studied that particular time period (400-200 BCE), I was able to quickly spot some... moderate bias.

Sentences I changed:

• The entire system was set up to make model citizens behave and act how the dynasty wanted them to act against their will.
• In theory, the Legalists believed that if the punishments were heavy and the law equally applied, neither the powerful nor the weak would be able to escape state control.
• Guided by Legalist thought, the First Qin Emperor, Qin Shi Huang, would weaken the power of the feudal lords, divide the unified empire into thirty-six administrative provinces, and standardize the writing system.
• Based on promoting the interests of the state Qin, the law (Chinese: 法; pinyin: fǎ; lit. 'law', 'method', 'way') served as a vehicle to both control the populace and eliminate dissent

If you read carefully, you should be able to spot the bias. While I, personally, do not approve of Legalism, these sentences cast a definite negative bias. The last sentence isn't even necessary, now that I think about it. The real kicker is that there aren't any citations for the whole paragraph. Indeed, the vast majority of the page is without cited reference.

However, the lack of citation isn't my point. That agreeable bias is something we must be on the lookout for. Even if we agree with the ideas behind the bias, maybe even the bias itself, we must eliminate it. Who are we to say what the exact purpose of Legalism was? Who are we to speak for the ancient Chinese people, and what their will was? We can only speak for what was and what was not, and even that we can only do so well.— Preceding unsigned comment added by CirusArvennicus (talk • contribs)

How does "The law served as a vehicle to both control the populace and eliminate dissent" indicate "an America Is Great bias"? That's pretty much the definition of public law, be it 2nd century China, 21st century America, the Hammurabic Code or the Wikimedia Foundation Terms of Use. In modern Western democracies the people (through referenda and election of representatives), rather than the Emperor, decide what the laws will be, but that doesn't mean criminal law has any purpose other than the prevention of activity deemed undesirable by the rulers.

Your complaint about the article being unsourced seems to be based on a misunderstanding. It's missing inline citations, but that's because it's an old article (the bulk of it was written 2003–2006), written when Wikipedia practice was to have a list of sources at the end of the articles rather than the current fact-citation-fact-citation format. The sources used are all listed correctly.

You would be much better off addressing concerns to

iridescent

16:20, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

It should be obvious to anyone that the opinions of a student taking a class in "East Asian Thought" carry more weight in Wikipedia than the preponderance of published material on the matter. Equally obvious is wisdom of discussing the vagaries of a single article (eg "Legalism (Chinese Philosophy)" aka "Legalism (Chinese philosophy)") here in Village Pump.</sarcasm>--→gab 24dot grab← 17:00, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

I would certainly agree that this is the wrong forum. The concern is about a particular article and should be discussed on that article's page. – Philosopher ^{Let us reason together.} 18:21, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

I propose eliminating all hatnotes linking to project pages. For example, currently Notability, Source, Sandbox, User (computing), Editing, and so on all include hatnote(s) to project pages. So do almost all abbreviation disambiguation pages – GAC, FP, AFD, RFA, NOR, etc. etc. These should be removed for a few reasons:

1. Most non-editors will have no need for them, and editors know to use the WP: prefix.
2. They self-promote, which detracts from the quality of Wikipedia by getting in the way of useful information.
3. In some cases (such as MediaWiki), they become really long.

  -- Ypnypn (talk) 02:42, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

I question the assumption that all editors, including newbies, know to use the WP: prefix.

Note that such hatnotes should be made using {{

Selfref}} so they are clearly marked as such and can be easily removed by mirror sites. If you see any that aren't, please do fix them. Anomie⚔

02:53, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

Oppose There should be MORE hatnotes. Finding stuff around here is sometimes like finding a needle in a haystack. GenQuest ^{"Talk to Me"} 15:32, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

Oppose We do generally try to keep the namespaces separate, but abbreviations are abbreviations and new users aren't likely to know about the Wikipedia: and Help: namespaces. – Philosopher ^{Let us reason together.} 19:43, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

On further thought, Support removing non-abbreviation references to the MediaWiki: namespace, where found, since its contents are part of the interface and are unlikely to be of help to new users. – Philosopher ^{Let us reason together.} 19:46, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

Currently if you are on a page that has equivalents in other Wikipedias the sidebar lists them all in sequence. That may have been sensible when we rarely had more than four or five such links, but nowadays when even Britney Spears has about ninety there is a potential for clutter. Wouldn't it be better if it reflected your language proficiencies and listed any you know first? Providing people have completed Babel boxes this should be easy to code. ϢereSpielChequers 00:37, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

I don't think this would be as easy as you think. Having a template on your userpage doesn't tell the wiki software what order a list of links should be; that communication just isn't there, and adding it wouldn't be trivial (I think). I think this is a decent enough idea, but I don't see it as a terribly pressing issue. EVula // talk // ☯ // 00:50, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

Wikidata is about to go live in two weeks; this might in theory make it practical to do dynamic resorting of language links based on a user preference, but I don't know if anyone's actually thought about doing it. Andrew Gray (talk) 14:26, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

I like wiki but only one case make me feel uneasy. Why wiki use so ugly font in webpages? do u know? I think it is so poor font that many reader may feel so painfull to read pages. The fonts is so small and not so beautiful. Just replace one better fonts sets for readers. Thank you! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Qduwg (talk • contribs)

Sorry, where exactly have you seen an ugly font? To increase the font size you can use "crtl +". Ruslik_Zero 19:12, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

As far as I am aware, Wikipedia does not use any particular font, but the CSS generic “sans-serif”, whose interpretation is entirely up to the browser. If this happens to be an ugly font for you, fix your browser defaults.—Emil J. 19:48, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

Hi all,

Before I file a bug request for this, I thought I'd suggest it here.

At the moment, if you add <ref>...</ref> tags to an article which does not have a corresponding <references/> tag, you get an ugly red warning at the bottom of the page. It occurs to me that we could make this fail more gracefully if we adapt the system so that:

• a) the footnotes are displayed wherever the <references/> tag is (as currently happens); but
• b) if no <references/> tag is present, it defaults to displaying them as the last visual element, before any categories, rather than not displaying at all.

Thoughts? This is one of the most glaringly counterintuitive bits of the system that I've encountered when showing people how to edit, and I feel that while references in the wrong place aren't great, they'd certainly be better than the current system! Andrew Gray (talk) 19:27, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose If someone doesn't know how to do it, it should be explained to them. While this might make things easier at first glance, it will make the understanding of how footnotes actually work even more difficult to comprehend in my opinion. -- Toshio Yamaguchi 20:32, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
• Comment Wouldn't it be better if a warning sign could show up saying you the reflist or close the ref tag or whatever be better than the ugly red warning? JayJay^{What did I do?} 00:54, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
• I think the idea is a good one if technically it is reasonably feasible. We have a default Table of Contents unless we say otherwise so why shouldn't we have a default reflist? We would have to deal with reference groups somehow. Thincat (talk) 14:24, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
• Comment There was a pretty important case a while back where an otherwise productive new editor left the project due to those tags. Some comments by me and a short discussion can be seen at User talk:Steven (WMF)/Archive 3#Since you appear to know how to do the meta testing.... I am completely 100% in support of any solution that can be thought up of for this issue. Ryan Vesey 18:31, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
• Comment If the red warning because of issues with the ref tags is seen as too annoying it should be changed. I have to admit I see no reason why this must look the way it does. A less colorful message should be sufficient. There are more serious issues than a page lacking a {{Reflist}} template. -- Toshio Yamaguchi 11:36, 19 January 2013 (UTC)
  • To be honest, I think if we do have an error message, it should be big and red and obvious - I'd just prefer we fix it silently without needing to shout at anyone ;-) Andrew Gray (talk) 11:01, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
• Comment I am going to self-declare as an expert on cite error messages. The messages are generated by the Cite software extension and are wrapped in <strong class="error">...</strong>, causing the bold red message. The text of each message is contained in a MediaWiki message page such as MediaWiki:Cite error refs without references.

Admins can edit the message pages. We use the {{broken ref}} template on each page to display it and control where it displays- we don't show messages on talk pages. It also places pages where the error is displayed into a maintenance category Category:Pages with citation errors. This category is patrolled and articles are repaired fairly quickly. There are also some bots that do repairs.

Each message shows a link to a help page, such as Help:Cite errors/Cite error refs without references.

So, what can we do?

• We can update {{broken ref}} so it closes the span, thus the messages will not be in strong red. Pro: the message is not in strong bold; con: the message is likely to be overlooked.
• We can add {{reflist}} to MediaWiki:Cite error refs without references so it is generated if an editor forgets to add it. Pro: the reflist always shows; con: the error message is shown for other reasons, such as missing a closing </ref>, thus the reflist would show up in odd places for non-obvious reasons.

--— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk 12:56, 19 January 2013 (UTC)

• The bot solution doesn't work out well for things like talkpages with ref sections, or sandboxes (which is where I usually encounter it). I like the solution with the reflist tag in its own warning, but it's a bit hacky and I'm worried about the unforseen knock-on effects. Fixing it at source seems possibly safer. Andrew Gray (talk) 11:01, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

• Comment. Yes, that big, red warning is overly alarming, and ought to be toned down. As a possibly related aspect: when editing a section that does not have a <references/> tag or {{reflist}}, I have to add a temporary tag to preview the notes, then remove it. I think the best solution for that would be a "Preview w/ refs" option. But I wonder how what is being proposed here might bear on this case of editing a section. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 23:50, 20 January 2013 (UTC)

Preview is a separate issue. See T7984 and User:Anomie/ajaxpreview.js. --— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk 00:21, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

• What about if we changed the content of MediaWiki:Cite error refs without references to read

== References preview <small><small>{{gray|(No references section has been added to the article yet; see the [[Help:Cite errors/...|help page]] for more info)}}</small></small> ==
{{reflist}}

? That wouldn't work straight off (all the cite error messages would need to be modified), but it would solve the problem in the end, by showing the user the references but stating that they are only a "preview" (therefore hopefully making the user do something to make them "more permanent"). — This, that, and the other (talk) 06:44, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

I like this (with the caveats above)! It looks pretty elegant. Andrew Gray (talk) 12:42, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

This is technically feasible, but will still be bewildering in some instances where perfectly valid {{reflist}} exists, but some other error is introduced. And with the current implementation, your message and the reflist will be in strong red. --— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk 14:20, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

Why does Wikipedia still not use MathJax? ProofWiki uses it with great success. — Timwi (talk) 20:56, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

It’s optional. You can enable it in your preferences (down on the Appearance tab).—Emil J. 21:01, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

This is a proposal to place the words The Signpost on the main menu, in the "Interaction" section right under "Community portal". The words would be linked to Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost, Wikipedia's newsletter and community news department. As a publication title, it would be italicized.

Rationale: The

• Support – as nom. This will help the Signpost get the word out. The Transhumanist 18:54, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
• Support, this is an excellent idea. It might also have the added effect of getting readers more involved. KillerChihuahua 19:31, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
  • We can't contact readers directly to get them more involved (because they generally do not have accounts). But we could make it easy for them to find the way in through the interface. The Transhumanist 12:32, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
• Support. I've thought this was a good idea for a while, but with the recent changes to the community portal, it's especially relevant. Your mileage may vary, but for me, reading the Signpost when I started was, more than anything else, the thing that made me understand and feel part of a community.--ragesoss (talk) 19:43, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
• Support More visibility of current WP events is a good thing. Some folks still get caught by surprise when new policies or features are rolled out, and the Signpost is a good place to keep up on those things. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 21:04, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
• Support, wonderful idea, will help to foster positive collaboration and constructive quality improvement in many varied capacities throughout. — Cirt (talk) 22:05, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
• Support; I echo the rationales of those above, especially ragesoss. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Theopolisme (talk • contribs) 22:37, January 15, 2013 (UTC)
• Support I think the central idea here is to turn readers into editors. All of us had a reason to click that first edit link. Without looking too deeply, you don't see the wiki's central nervous system, and it is easy to be completely unaware about the editor community. Having the Signpost on the main page would show this is an ongoing collaboration. --NickPenguin_(contribs) 04:26, 16 January 2013 (UTC)
• Support Although I feel the page that is linked to should probably have some description of what the sign post is at the top rather than dumping the reader straight into the signpost itself. ·Add§hore· ^{Talk To Me!} 04:14, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
• Support. I don't think that adding the signpost would cause an increase in clutter, because, if I understand correctly, this proposal would add the signpost under the interaction sub-menu, which everyone can easily decide for theselves whether or not to show the contents of. AgnosticAphid talk 11:09, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
• Support - Newcomers have no idea this publication even exists. The publication's content helps to build understanding and participation in the project. Carrite (talk) 20:41, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
• Support I think I like the idea of somehow promoting that this place is a community, which seems to have faded in recent years. Casliber (talk · contribs) 09:36, 19 January 2013 (UTC)
• Support, not to promote the Signpost or to endorse it or anything, but because it shows we have a community and invites people to join us.– Philosopher ^{Let us reason together.} 13:58, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
  • I came across a passage in WP about Tim Berners-Lee (creator of the World Wide Web) that has some relevance:

In June 2009 then British Prime Minister

UK Government project to open up almost all data acquired for official purposes for free re-use. Commenting on the opening up of Ordnance Survey data in April 2010 Berners-Lee said that: "The changes signal a wider cultural change in Government based on an assumption that information should be in the public domain unless there is a good reason not to—not the other way around." He went on to say "Greater openness, accountability and transparency in Government will give people greater choice and make it easier for individuals to get more directly involved in issues that matter to them."^[2]

• Similarly, I believe greater openness and transparency concerning Wikipedia development by making The Signpost more easily accessible to readers will give them "greater choice and make it easier for individuals to get more directly involved in issues that matter to them." The Transhumanist 12:03, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

• Support - per Cirt, Casliber and others. Should have been done long ago. By all means, do this! Jusdafax 07:12, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
• Support per Cirt et al. Fredlyfish4 (talk) 01:24, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
• Support this proposal. Wikipedia is not merely a collection of robots, but people with their strengths and weaknesses, interests and beliefs, dislikes and flaws. By putting the Signpost on the main page in some form, we will give the world an appreciation for all that is required to produce this encyclopedia by unveiling to them the community underlying it. Wer900 • talk 20:42, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

Oppose

• Oppose - we should be very careful about adding any new material to the interface; each incremental addition seems like a good idea, but the inevitable result is increased clutter and a more unfriendly interface. While I like the Signpost very much, I don't think this is the most appropriate place for it - why not link more prominently from the Community Portal, instead? Andrew Gray (talk) 19:44, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
  • The Community Portal (CP) was redesigned to support active editing by channeling editors to specific pages where their help is needed. News does not fit that theme directly (it would require extra clicks to get to problem pages), and so it was moved to the bottom of the page. The changes to the CP haven't changed traffic to The Signpost much if at all. The underlying question is: Should we increase The Signpost's readership, and if so, how? A link on the main menu is about as convenient as you can get. The Transhumanist 21:26, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
    • It's convenient and easy, but it's not free. This approach would increase readership at the cost of marginally diminishing the usability of our user interface, which is a disproportionate cost. (See similar objections in the past to linking to the Teahouse from the sidebar, or to adding new links to the "user bar" at the top.) This is a sledgehammer of a solution, and we should try to think of a better one. For example, why not look at linking to the Signpost from the standard welcome templates? The main interface isn't the only thing available to work with. Andrew Gray (talk) 10:23, 16 January 2013 (UTC)
      • Not a sledgehammer... a billboard. We want as many readers to see it as possible. So the maximum number are drawn in with a simple click. The Transhumanist 12:53, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
      • ...actually, this prompts an interesting thought. In the spirit of the meta:Editor engagement experiments, we could try randomly subscribing half of all new user accounts to the Signpost, with corresponding weekly notifications, and see if that causes an increase in activity... Andrew Gray (talk) 11:51, 16 January 2013 (UTC)
        • Randomly adding people to a subscription is a Really Bad Idea™. People get testy when you mess with their watchlist.
        • That aside, I really don't understand your argument that adding the Signpost to the sidebar "clutters the interface." — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 15:51, 16 January 2013 (UTC)
        • Rather than automatically signing them up for a weekly posting on their talk page, we could send newcomers a modified welcome message that includes the next best thing: The Signpost template...

25 April 2024
In the media: Censorship and wikiwashing looming over RuWiki, edit wars over San Francisco politics and another wikirace on live TV News and notes: A sigh of relief for open access as Italy makes a slight U-turn on their cultural heritage reproduction law WikiConference report: WikiConference North America 2023 in Toronto recap WikiProject report: WikiProject Newspapers (Not WP:NOTNEWS) Recent research: New survey of over 100,000 Wikipedia users Traffic report: O.J., cricket and a three body problem
Single page Front page About Subscribe Suggestions Archives

• ...its content changes each week, making it mildly dynamic (eye-catching). But we can't send this to (non-editor) readers, because they generally don't have accounts for us to send it to. How else would we attract the maximum number of readers to edit Wikipedia? The sidebar menu is the most obvious way to reach them all. The Transhumanist 12:53, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

• Something like this - embedding on talkpages by default - is a pretty good approach; I think this would be a good start towards exposing it.
• However, I'm still fundamentally unconvinced by the main bar idea. We don't have any indication that an obscurely titled link ("The Signpost" is pretty opaque if you don't know what it is) will catch the attention of many readers; we equally don't have anything but a guess that a significant function will read it and be converted into editing. The sidebar is seen as a wall of text by many new contributors, and I've seen many either hunting aimlessly in it or ignoring it entirely; why cram more information into it unless we have to? Andrew Gray (talk) 09:51, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose I read The Signpost religiously, and pore over every article of every issue. However, it is primarily an internal newsletter, of interest mostly to editors of Wikipedia and as such giving it a more prominent place on the main page represents a level of "navel gazing" that I don't think we should participate in. The link in the community portal is sufficient, posting it on the main page is a little too much "airing one's dirty laundry". --Jayron32 19:59, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
  • Good point, but it's everybody's encyclopedia. There is no "us" or "them". Dirty laundry = problems. The more readers who know about their encyclopedia's problems, the more who will be inspired to get involved and help. There's an edit button on every page of Wikipedia. The Signpost may help readers decide to click some of those edit buttons. Transparency = good = more reader feedback. The Transhumanist 21:09, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
    • Yes of course there is an us and them, if the Signpost were to be promoted to the general public then every article would have to be dejargonified, and internal news such as welcoming new admins would need to be dropped in favour of more stuff that is of interest to a different set of readers. ϢereSpielChequers 07:13, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
  • It's proposed to be in the interaction sidebar, not on the main page. That sidebar can be easily hidden (assuming its not hidden by default, something I'm unsure about). Many opposes reflect this misunderstanding. It's difficult to know what these people would think if they properly understood the proposal. AgnosticAphid talk 15:42, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose 90+% of people coming to Wikipedia do so to get their information and move on. They don't need further, basically insider, information and/or links to wade through. I believe it would be off-putting to many. It is like hanging another magnet on your refrigerator: the first few additions seem like a good idea, but then, one day, you can't see the door anymore. GenQuest ^{"Talk to Me"} 22:51, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose per Jayron32. Unless this is tied to a broader initiative to make the Signpost more of a general-interest newsletter than a Wikipedia-specific one, I don't see that it would be of much interest to casual non-editor readers. And clutter is also a factor. For those who do want it, it's not exactly hard to find. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 03:32, 16 January 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose As much as I want to support the Signpost, and as much as I think that some of the members try hard to do a good job, when it comes to a straight up or down vote of confidence, I'm going to vote no confidence. It doesn't happen often, but when the Signpost loses its way, it throws journalist integrity and neutrality out the window, and I don't think that it's a good idea to put that on the front page.
  Wha?
  04:09, 16 January 2013 (UTC)
  • It'd be in the interaction sidebar, something that can be easily hidden if it's not hidden by default, not the "front page." AgnosticAphid talk 15:44, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
• No. The Wikipedia Signpost is written for the community; our readership is not our community. A newspaper has no place in a serious, neutral encyclopedia. As has already been said, we need to clearly justify the addition of new links to the Sidebar. And, most critically of all, readers who stumble onto the link are likely to be confused. Sven also makes a good point that we shouldn't be airing our dirty laundry so visibly. This proposal, while well-intentioned, is worse than wrong.
  [•]
  16:17, 16 January 2013 (UTC)
• Greater publicity for the Signpost is a good idea, but it needs to be appropriate publicity. A link on the birthday committee greetings or a Signpost discussion at Wikimania would be good ways to publicise the \signpost to potential readers. But the mainpage is mainly read by the general public, and publicising the singpost there would either turn it into a very different publication or turn the mainpage into something less interesting to our readers. ϢereSpielChequers 07:10, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
  • I could be missing something here with either your comment or the proposal, but I don't think this proposal would add anything to
    WP:MAIN, per se, it's about adding a link to the interaction sidebar, something that appears on every page but is easily hidden. AgnosticAphid talk
    11:15, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose the Signpost represents neither official Wikipedia views, nor community consensus. It has, effectively, the same
  status as an essay. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits
  16:39, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose I have contributed to the Signpost in the past, and with a few exceptions, I think it's a Good Thing. But it is a few meta-levels beyond what should be on the frontpage. It just doesn't necessarily have relevance to the general Wikipedia reader until they've become hooked on hitting that 'edit' button. —Tom Morris (talk) 01:00, 22 January 2013 (UTC)
  • A reader can't know if things (such as issues) matter to him until he knows about them. Maybe The Signpost, which focuses on the editing community and the activities and results of editing, would inspire many thousands of readers to hit the edit button. The Transhumanist 13:00, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
  • It'd be in the interaction sidebar, something that can be easily hidden if it's not hidden by default, not the "frontpage." AgnosticAphid talk 15:46, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
    • My apologies for that oversight. Let me rephrase: I don't think it should be on the sidebar on every page for the same reasons. —Tom Morris (talk) 20:27, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose; this prioritises the editor experience far above that for the readers. Ironholds (talk) 03:29, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose this is of no interest to the genral public and has no place on the front page. Ridernyc (talk) 05:40, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
  • How do you know that? Did you conduct a survey? I was a member of the "general public" when I became interested in editing Wikipedia. Weren't you? The Transhumanist 09:47, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
    • because the members of the general public do not edit Wikipedia, and this publication is primarily for people who edit Wikipedia. It's kind of obvious and self explanatory is you look at from a real world POV. Ridernyc (talk) 10:12, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
  • You misunderstood. It's not proposed to be "on the front page," it's proposed to be in the interaction sidebar, something quite easily hidden. If only people would take the time to understand proposals before rejecting them! AgnosticAphid talk 14:11, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
• I withdraw the proposal. The Transhumanist 09:52, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

Comments: How can we get more readers involved in the community?

I think this is the wrong question here - if you mean Wikipedia readers, it's too broad; if you mean Signpost readers, it's too narrow. Either way, it's more of an Idea Lab question than a VPR question. – Philosopher ^{Let us reason together.} 16:52, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

Portal:Wikipedia newspapers?

The Signpost is, for better or for worse, the community-wide newspaper of Wikipedia. However, there are a variety of "local" papers as well. Would the "Oppose" voters support a "Wikipedia news" link that took readers to a Portal:Wikipedia newspapers, to feature the current editions of the various papers? – Philosopher ^{Let us reason together.} 16:56, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

I was idly wondering about this earlier today - some kind of portal for the various newsletters (including the non-enwiki ones), and a streamlined way to sign up for them, would be great. I'm still not convinced about putting it in the main interface, but it would definitely reward better placement in the community portal. Andrew Gray (talk) 17:03, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

Support per Andrew Gray, above. GenQuest ^{"Talk to Me"} 05:00, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

Question: There's already Wikipedia:News. How would the portal differ? The Transhumanist 10:10, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

Heh, it wouldn't, so scratch the "create" idea. – Philosopher ^{Let us reason together.} 20:32, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

Support adding Wikipedia:News. And if we wanted to save space in the Toolbar, we might consider the overlap between Help:Contents, Wikipedia:About and Wikipedia:Contact us. The "About" page in particular seems a bit "who's that for, and doesn't it duplicate Wikipedia, which most of the curious will look at anyway?" (Incidentally - five hatnotes at Wikipedia:About? Yeah, that's inviting...) Rd232 ^talk 17:41, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

Question

Would it be possible to add a link to The Signpost from each editor's watchlist page? Not in the watchlist itself but off to the left, maybe in the "interaction" box and only displaying when one's watchlist is displayed. Rivertorch (talk) 11:03, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

It won't really get noticed there, and changing a sitewide interface on one page is not good UI. Why not just watchlist the Signpost by default, so that users who don't want it need to unwatch it? If we want more engagement, we need to make it happen. Rd232 ^talk 17:44, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

I'd just like to let everyone know, in order to dispel any rumours to the contrary, that Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal 2.0 definitely doesn't exist. Since it doesn't exist, people definitely shouldn't spread the word about its non-existence. Opinions? *smiles sweetly* --Tristessa (talk) 21:17, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

Pardon my frankness, but I think that this idea is really rather dumb. The fake-humor/self-aware-comedy approach you've taken to announcing and explaining it, that's definitely rather dumb, and will serve only to make people not take it seriously.

Wha?

03:31, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Manual of Style proposal for clarification on BC/AD and BCE/CE date styles

FYI

 – Invitation to participate in an RfC on a proposal at another page.

A request for comment about clarifying the Manual of Style's advice on use of BC/AD and BCE/CE dates, to reduce disputes and confusion, has been opened at the MoS talk page. — SMcCandlish  Talk⇒ ɖ^⊝כ^⊙þ Contrib. 14:26, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

Full-width (and half-width) characters to standard characters

At Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2013 January 16#Ｗｅｓｔｅｒｎ Ｓａｈａｒａ, it has been suggested that full-width (and half-width) characters should automatically lead the user to the title in standard width characters without the need to manually create a redirect.

There are two possible ways to do this:

1. Use fuzzy matching so that it is still possible to have full-width titles if desired (similar to how capitalisation currently works).
2. Make the software hard translate the full-width form to the standard width form. It would not be possible to have an article with a full-width character in the title, but the {{correct title}} template could be used as with other technical restrictions if needed.

One possible issue I thought of was articles about the character themselves, but the ones I've looked at already redirect to the standard form (e.g.

ａ → A

). I don't know of any article with full width characters in the title, or full-width titles that redirect to anywhere other than to the standard-width form.

Do people think this is a good idea? Which method should be used? Are there any other issues?

There was a similar proposal in 2008, but that doesn't seem to have gone anywhere. Thryduulf (talk) 00:16, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

Support either proposal, whichever is easier to implement, with one caveat: there are legitimate uses of full-width characters in titles like

ＱコちゃんＴＨＥ地球侵略少女. If we do automatic translation, I think it would be better to restrict it to cases where the entire title consists of full-width ASCII-like characters (U+FF00–U+FF5E), not mixed with anything else.—Emil J.

15:01, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

Support, definitely - hard-coding titles really isn't a sustainable way to do this! #2 seems the best to me, but I'm wondering if there's any other pitfalls beyond the one you mention that we'd need to watch out for. Andrew Gray (talk) 15:59, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

Support either with Emil's caveat, though I can't imagine that there will be many actual examples of it on this wiki. – Philosopher ^{Let us reason together.} 17:43, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

Support either: while it has just a marginal effect, it's definitely a timesaver. —Theopolisme (talk) 12:18, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

Support all double-byte versions of the standard ASCII characters (the common ones from the first 128) should autoconvert to the regular ASCII characters. That handles the problems brought up last time, since they're all extended sequeneces. -- 76.65.128.43 (talk) 02:11, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

Support, obviously. — This, that, and the other (talk) 04:49, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

Support per my vote at the RFD, tough I don't know which method would be better for this. Also implement this for Soft hyphens, but for Soft hyphens use method two. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 12:37, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

Implementation

Has a Bugzilla been filed? —Theopolisme (talk) 22:44, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

I was holding off as I wasn't quite sure what to ask for. Automatic conversion of full-width to normal in page names & searches, but do we want it only for enwiki or for mediawiki in general? Andrew Gray (talk) 14:35, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

Why not mediawiki in general, this is technical a problem with mediawiki. As for which method, we clearly have consensus for this idea, lets focus the deduction which which method to use. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 15:14, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

I'm not certain that we should ask for more than en.wp, other wikis, particularly the CJKV language ones, may wish to do things differently to us. Thryduulf (talk) 10:47, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

AFAIK no language uses full- and halfwidth characters distinctly; if fuzzy matching were implemented, it would not matter which width a wiki used. Gorobay (talk) 02:38, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

So as I understand it, the desire is for hard translation to standard width from titles that contain only ASCII-like full-width characters (U+FF00–U+FF5E) or a mix of them and standard-width characters. For other titles then fuzzy matching should be employed so that search terms containing full-width characters find articles using standard-width characters and vice versa. Is that correct? Thryduulf (talk) 19:06, 5 February 2013 signature added 01:26, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

Stop linking URL text to other URLs in Wikipedia's emails

I've mentioned this before, and figured I'd try again. I got an email today from Wikipedia regarding donations. And, like just about every other email the foundation has sent out, Mozilla Thunderbird has flagged it as a scam.

This is mostly because the email contains linked text that is a URL, but the link goes to a different, and much longer, URL than the one displayed. Example: If you link the text www.ostrich.com to www.donate-to-the-ostrich-foundation.com, mail clients (rightly) think it smells funny. This aspect of it has been a repeating occurrence.

Adding to the problem this time specifically, the presence of the word "donate" in the same email, and the fact that the link actually does lead to a URL with the word "donate" in it (donate.wikimedia.org, in this case), probably contributes points to the scam score. Then we have the displayed link text that is actually a YouTube URL, something a scammer would likely use to try and get you to click a malicious link. Furthermore, they didn't even use the normal YouTube url, but "www.youtu.be" -- which actually does redirect to YouTube, but, yeah, that looks funny too.

Anyway. I'm not sure if Thunderbird is the only mail client seeing it this way, but I'd be surprised if it was. Are you missing out on participation in donation events due to your donation emails being flagged thusly by certain clients? I couldn't say for sure, but just letting you know. Again. Equazcion ^(talk) 04:44, 2 Feb 2013 (UTC)

Link forwarding like that is a pretty common way for people to track the click-thru on email campaigns; there was also an open-tracking image that got loaded as well, which likely didn't help Thunderbird's assumption that the email was spam. But to a certain extent, any mass email is going to run the risk of being labeled as spam; it's just the nature of the beast, sadly. EVula // talk // ☯ // 05:28, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

First of all, no, most mass emails are not seen as scams -- there is a difference between spam and scam filters, where scam-flagged emails are those believed to be malicious, rather than merely unsolicited. Secondly, this is an easily fixed problem -- If you want to forward people through an intermediate URL, you can do it without making an email look suspicious. These emails are just exceptionally suspicious-looking in the way they do it. A forwarded link doesn't need to use the URL of the final destination as its clickable text. Have donate.wikimedia.com links display simply as donate.wikimedia.com addresses, or use non-URL links instead (eg. "click here to see our video"). Equazcion ^(talk) 13:44, 6 Feb 2013 (UTC)

Some points about wikipedia homepage language bar and a note about references

In Wikipedia home page: the first point is that there's a little error (unless meant) in the search bar, when we open the language option box (the one next to the search field box) I've noted that that despite languages - (I'm talking about the ones that I can read their characters) - are sorted alphabetically and are written undefined (English, Español, Français, Italiano, עברית,Português...) except "Arabic - عربي" which is written "العربية": literally "The Arabic" instead of "عربي" and thus it should be positioned after "עברית" (Hebrew) in the drop list - noting that both ع",ע" letters don't exist in Greco-Latin derived languages – so we should discuss this problem. Second one is that both Greek "Ελληνικά" and Armenian "Հայերեն" languages are ignored and totally absent from this drop list, despite both of them being among the most cultivated and human culture impacting countries, while you leave them in the (10 000+) field with unheard-of languages, even if they didn't write enough articles until now, just putting them on the drop list will be a moral push for them to create more articles and pages. Third one is that "Bahasa Indonesia" and "Bahasa Melayu" (I don't read or understand any of them) should be written "Indonesia (Bahasa)" and "Melayu (Bahasa)" and kept in their actual place in the list Fourth one "Hrvatski" the "Croatian" (I don't read or understand it) is pronounced – according to mypoorknowledge– "Khrvatski" (Kh = כ or خ) so it should be positioned after "Italiano" In the whole archive we have to note that some references are completely useless; not anyone that create an internet site with few bucks per month became a reference for an international encyclopedia, so to keep wikipedia credibility we'd better get rid of those pointless references.

Just a note that the ע (Ayin) most definitely does exist in Greco-Latin alphabets as Omicron and O, between N/Nu and P/Pi (just as in Hebrew it's between Nun and Peh. In both Hebrew and Greek, the letter Samekh/Xi separates N and O, but the point remains. -- YPNYPN ✡ 03:41, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

The languages are always sorted by ISO 639-1 code. If you disagree with it, the place to argue is Template talk:Main Page interwikis, but you'll have to have a very good argument for changing it. FWIW Greek (Ελληνικά) is right there between Eesti and Espanol on the main list. 84.13.26.181 (talk) 20:04, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

Geo-targeted Editors Participation

A new project idea on

talk

) 18:04, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

Unanswered questions - TAFI

(Moved from

Wikipedia talk:Today's article for improvement

.)

The TAFI proposal, which can be found here has been closed in support but cannot be implemented yet as there are still unanswered questions.

At current, it has been decided that:

1. It is obvious that there is support to implement TAFI on the main page.
2. The community has agreed to place the recruitment message below DYK as suggested in this image.
3. The community has agreed to use "Help Wikipedia and join fellow editors in building _______ - today's Article for Improvement"
4. To reduce edit conflicts, the community has agreed to constantly, randomly, display one out of several articles chosen per day.
5. Edit notices geared towards new editors will be placed on TAFI articles.

—

^Chat

_Online 20:01, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

The following subsections will address the unanswered questions:

The wording of the edit notice

How should the TAFI edit notice(s) be worded and linked?

Live version

talk links history

):

account and place this article on their watchlist .

Comments

• From
  WP:TAFI: "Welcome to Today's article for improvement (TAFI). Each day (or other time period, to be selected) Periodically we identify one or more underdeveloped articles that require improvement, to be linked to the Community Portal for collaborative editing, ideally to improve it to good article or even featured article quality over a short time frame, through widespread collaborative editing." -—Kvng
  20:08, 8 January 2013 (UTC)
• Comment – For context, below is how the current edit notice is worded (as of this post). Northamerica1000^(talk) 20:25, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

Today's Article for Improvement! Wikipedia is a free and open source encyclopedia that has been expanded by volunteers to over 4 million articles. Please consider collaborating with other volunteers to improve this article. Together we can expand the world's knowledge. By clicking on the "edit" tab above, you will find instructions about how you can help here. Thank you for donating your time!

• It may be functional to reduce the length of the message to make it slightly less verbose. Omitting, or at least modifying the phrase "Together we can expand the world's knowledge" may be in order, because while the intent is clear, technically the "world" doesn't possess knowledge in a literal sense (people do). If to be retained, it should reworded to something such as "Together we can expand the availability of knowledge in the world." Northamerica1000^(talk) 20:41, 8 January 2013

• Suggested revision to above infobox to better target new editors. -—Kvng 22:07, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

This article has been selected as

welcome! You will find editing instructions in the help system

.
Click on the Edit tab above to start improving this article. Thank you for helping!

• I stumbled upon the template through
  here. Thanks!

  Best. Biosthmors (talk
  ) 02:46, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

I like it too.

AutomaticStrikeout (T • C

) 02:48, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

• Just to give a heads up, we already had an ongoing discussion for an edit notice at
  talk
  ) 14:19, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

• Lots of links and meandering information in the current version of the template. Feels like reinventing the wheel. Isn't there a simple intro page we can point to or include that lays all this out? Closest I've found so far is
  WP:WELCOME. -—Kvng
  15:42, 10 January 2013 (UTC)
  • Wikipedia:Introduction also looks good. -—Kvng
    19:24, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

• Holy crap that template needs to be shortened. I've put the live version above, which seems to have gotten longer since the original post:

here. Thanks!

I'd suggest something like this instead:

Today's Article for Improvement! Please consider collaborating with other volunteers to improve this article.

Λυδαcιτγ 09:29, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

• ALT 2

account. Thank you for donating your time!

 – It's shortened while still providing editing assistance, encourages account creation and is updated with the project's logo. Northamerica1000^(talk) 12:35, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

I just found out about this project when NickPenguin posted a notice about it on

WP:Teahouse/Questions

breaks the Teahouse process, makes more work for Teahouse hosts, and isn't very helpful for new editors:

1. this method doesn't give the user any of the important context. They're sent to an empty edit window and given no instructions (e.g. 'put your the subject field to "don't forget to sign your posts"). Pragmatically, this means that the Teahouse will get (potentially many) more poorly-formatted questions that will need to be manually fixed by hosts. New users also don't have a chance to figure out anything about the page they're posting to before asking their question, and the process for asking is potentially confusing. Say they fill in the edit form and press save: the question they just asked will not even be visible on the next screen! They wind up in the middle of a long discussion page that they have never seen before. Where did their question go?
2. the vast majority of Teahouse questions are posted to the top of the page, feed-style, not the bottom. This is enabled by a JavaScript gadget that provides easy in-line editing. Posting to the top makes it easier for hosts to keep track of new questions, and figure out which ones have been answered. If we suddenly get a lot more questions being posted to the bottom of the page, it makes it more difficult to track.
3. this also breaks my metrics :) I track how many questions are asked on the Teahouse Q&A board, how many answers each question recieves, and how many times the original questioner responds in their question thread. The Teahouse is an editor engagement project, and we're still analyzing the impact of Teahouse participation on new editor retention. Tracking these metrics relies on consistent edit comment strings. More bottom-posting (and more manual monkeying with poorly-formed section titles) makes my metrics less accurate.

So... can we just link to

WP:Teahouse/Questions instead? Jmorgan (WMF) (talk

) 21:18, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

I removed the "by clicking here". The template has grown far too large though. Ryan Vesey 21:43, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, Ryan. How about we just link to TH and to one of our newly-redesigned portal pages, Help or Community? Jmorgan (WMF) (talk) 22:44, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

I've shortened the live version to something inspired by ALT 2. I like the cheatsheet link being the first help link because it is plain nuts and bolds editing. I removed the link to the WikiProject TAFI, which is irrelevant to a newbie, in my opinion. The first link is now edit, as it should be, I think. Biosthmors (talk) 01:48, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

Regarding removal of the TAFI link: editors other than newbies are likely to work on TAFI articles, and the template sans the link orphans the project from where the article was decided upon to be a collaboration. Including the link provides perspective about how TAFI articles are chosen, and may encourage participation there. Northamerica1000^(talk) 18:15, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

• ALT 3

account. Thank you for donating your time!

• Here's alt 3: Teahouse link to edit page removed. WP TAFI link retained, because editors other than newbies will likely be editing TAFI articles, and the link serves to provide context to the project and how entries are chosen. Help page and Community portal links added, although this does increase the word count. Northamerica1000^(talk) 18:07, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

I was actually suggesting we add (one of!) the portal links as a substitute for some of the other links. Particularly cheat sheet, tutorial, editing help and FAQ. Rationale being that these portals (particularly the help portal) links to a lot of these resources or similar ones, which offloads the responsibility from the template itself and reduces clutter. Plus, I like the way the help portal is designed :) But now we have all the other links, PLUS BOTH the portal links, so my suggestion has now inadvertently made the template longer, not shorter. I hereby retract my suggestion and excuse myself from the design committee! Jmorgan (WMF) (talk) 21:36, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

• ALT 4

account. Thank you for donating your time!

Posted ALT 4. Northamerica1000^(talk) 05:50, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

Arbitrary section break - Edit notice

• I support ALT 4 to be used as the TAFI edit notice at this time (which I composed), but this can easily change if new alts are posted. Northamerica1000^(talk) 05:46, 13 January 2013 (UTC)
• Regarding the edit notice part, I would like to clarify which is the edit notice everyone is talking of? Currently, there is one message that appears on the article page only, that introduces the reader to TAFI. But there is also another type of notice that comes up while you are trying to edit a page (just above the edit screen - I have seen it for the talk pages of several users, like AutomaticStrikeout).

That sort of notice will be a lot better than one on the normal page, as people will be more likely to be trying to find out how to work things around when they actually realise things are harder than they thought [which would be after they hit the edit button, for most users].

talk

) 20:12, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

• Support Audacity's short version. All the others are far too wordy and no one is actually going to read them. Kaldari (talk) 21:37, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
• Support Audacity's short version per Kaldari. Keep it short and sweet. KillerChihuahua 17:34, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
• Support Audacity's short version... except I'd have the "improve this article" link point to Help:Editing or something similar. People generally don't read big blocks of texts. The short notice serves its purpose of pointing out what's special about the page at the moment and nudging people to contribute. It makes editing sound fun. A big block of text with multiple links (which people will presume they need to read) gives the impression that editing is tedious. Let's not scare people away with TMI. Jason Quinn (talk) 18:35, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

How many articles are chosen per day

How many articles should be selected per day?

• 1 article displayed randomly from a pool of 7. The oldest article in the pool will be removed and replaced with a new one at least once a week. -—Kvng 19:59, 8 January 2013 (UTC)
• Choose and publish on a weekly basis: Have a minimum of 7 articles present in the queue each week, with 1 randomly displayed. I would prefer for all 7 articles be changed-out weekly. If the same articles are in place for weeks at a time on the Main page, editors will likely become disinterested in utilizing TAFI. Also, it may be unrealistic for articles to have to be chosen every day. Northamerica1000^(talk) 22:21, 8 January 2013 (UTC)
• Every week, we choose 7 or more articles to be randomly displayed on the main page. Like what Northamerica said, it would be to unrealistic and troublesome to nominate a new article every day.--Horai 551 (talk) 09:08, 10 January 2013 (UTC)
• Why not have 7 articles per week on a rolling basis? The 7 would be randomized as to which gets shown at any one given time, but we could roll the oldest one of the list each day at midnight UTC and replace it from the pool. That gives each article equal access, and keeps the list slowly evolving. --Jayron32 17:08, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

• This. —WFC— _{FL wishlist} 19:39, 10 January 2013 (UTC)
• At this time, I'm still for updating on a weekly basis with a minimum of 7 articles, and perhaps a maximum of 10, per the new guidelines at the project that utilize 10 categories from
  Main page (which only administrators can edit), although a script could be developed to do so automatically. Additional concerns include daily updating being contingent upon the project continuously receiving a high degree of participation and maintenance; sometimes participation in WikiProjects begins to wane after initial interest, and using a script would still be reliant upon high participation levels. Weekly updates also serve to keep the process simplified. As a side note, if auto-updating is to occur, there would need to be a 7-day delay to provide time for the initial entries to exist. Northamerica1000^(talk)
  12:52, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

• A rolling approach sounds good to me. I think we should consider a pool of 14, though, to maximize the odds that the reader will find something that interests him (or her), and to decrease the odds that dozens of people will try to work on the same article at the same time. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:32, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

How the articles are chosen

How will the articles be chosen?

Moved from a different thread for consistency I propose that the following criteria be used when determining the next TAFI:

• New TAFI should be chosen at least 4 weeks in advance, but no more than 8.
• They should be chosen from articles nominated in the last 30 days.
• Nominated articles should be unoffensive and of a large general interest so as to attract the most amount of editors
• The article with the largest amount of support and the least amount of opposition becomes the next TAFI. Discussion will ensue in the event of a tie or a compromise
• Unsuccessful nominations should not be nominated again for 4 weeks.
• Articles above a C class should not be nominated.
• Nominated articles should have the capacity to be improved up to FA
• Successful and unsuccessful nominations will be archived after 30 days in the
  locations
  .
• A notice should be posted on relevant wikiproject noticeboards when an article goes live as TAFI

Thoughts? --NickPenguin_(contribs) 05:16, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

What does "Nominated articles should have the capacity to be improved up to FA" mean? What's an example of an article that would not meet this criteria? -—Kvng 03:19, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

In truth every article should have the capacity to become an FA, otherwise we don't need that article. What I mean tho is that the subject matter should have sufficient depth to allow for the quality we come to expect from FAs. Medical certificate is something like this; it is a notable subject, but it would likely not be among the best articles Wikipedia has to offer. Journalism, in contrast, seems to fit the bill. What I mean is that the article should lend itself to improvement because it has sufficient potential to be awesome. --NickPenguin_(contribs) 03:37, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

I don't understand how "The article with the largest amount of support and the least amount of opposition becomes the next TAFI" would work. A single article is not always going to have the most supports and the least opposes. First Light (talk) 06:03, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

How about "supports-opposes" --j⚛e decker^talk 06:13, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

That would work, and is probably the simplest solution. First Light (talk) 16:08, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

I really think we need guidelines for TAFI suggestions.Horai 551 (talk) 07:38, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

I note that the criteria above makes no mention of lists, and implicitly suggests that they should be excluded (by only mentioning FA). Overlooking them altogether would be an opportunity missed in my opinion, as certain lists (such as List of food preparation utensils) really do lend themselves to this format. There are several very interesting lists in the link in my sig, some of which are at a low enough state of development to be worth considering. —WFC— _{FL wishlist} 13:58, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

I'm not trying to explicitly exclude lists, I think they can make great TAFIs. Any article that lends itself to improvement should be a good candidate for this project. The suggested criteria should be amended so that it includes all types of mainspace content. --NickPenguin_(contribs) 17:11, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

With that caveat, your suggestions look reasonably good. The fourth point would obviously need to be clarified, but presumably your intention was to keep things brief. —WFC— _{FL wishlist} 18:07, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

I've updated the project's scope to include lists. See the

Header page. Northamerica1000^(talk)

20:52, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

Update: the project's main page has been updated with a guideline section. See:

/Guidelines, which is transcluded to the project's main page. Northamerica1000^(talk)

17:50, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

• Using current
  WP:TAFI procedures to select the replacement article for the pool update as described above. -—Kvng
  20:01, 8 January 2013 (UTC)
• I agree with the comment directly above by User:Kvng. Articles being chosen by consensus at
  Nominations is working functionally. Northamerica1000^(talk)
  20:21, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

• Comment – Regarding the proposals at the start of this section. The time frame in point 1 seems arbitrary, and creates a large, entirely unnecessary gap of time between acceptance of nominations and publishing; I oppose this. Point 2 isn't necessary, because sometimes discussion may occur for longer than 30 days about a nomination, particularly controversial ones. Point 3 goes against the grain of
  WP:NOTCENSORED, which is policy, although the latter "general interest" provision makes sense as a suggestion, but not as an absolute, because this can restrict topics and people can discuss matters at TAFI nominations on a case-per-case basis. Point 4 is fine, per being consensus-based. Point 5 may unnecessarily restrict editors from re-nominating after additional discussion has occurred about a topic on the project's talk page, for example. Point 6 is agreeable as far as being a general guideline, but some B-Class articles may be incorrectly assessed, and sometimes they still need significant improvement: it should not be an absolute. Point 7 is fine, but Featured lists should also be included. Point 8's time frame isn't necessary: the page has a tendency to become long, and people can easily find archived entries from the archives box, which is specific per types of nominations and content. Point 9 is all right, but it adds on more duties to the project: while this is a good idea, it shouldn't be made mandatory. Northamerica1000^(talk)
  18:17, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

To Point 3, I believe accepted nom should be uncontroversial, as they are going on the Main Page. I don't think the goal of WP:NOTCENSORED is to say we can't choose what to feature. The idea there is just to have editors consider the range of appeal for their nominated subject. About time frames, the time frames are completely arbitrary and probably unnecessary. I pulled them out of a hat with the intent of preventing slow down. The idea behind Point 5 is to prevent constant renomination of unsuccessful articles in order to get your horse in the race. If time based criteria are necessary at all, then we can just add something to the effect of "a reasonable time frame". --NickPenguin_(contribs) 19:06, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

Hello NickPenguin. Regarding point 3 – Consensus being decided at the discussions has been functional so far. For example, the nomination for the

this link to read the discussion). What is offensive or controversial is subjective, and I think nominations should be decided on a case-per-case basis via discussion, rather than limiting what people can post from the start, which may deter participation. Regarding point 5, I find the addition of something along the lines of "a reasonable time frame" to be acceptable. Northamerica1000^(talk)

19:28, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

• IMO,The articles choosing process be more streamlined and simplistic. We are obviously going to be nominating loads of articles, and it makes no use keeping the same way we have.

I suggest that we simply have a table for each category to be chosen. Each table shall list only the article name, the nom, the nom date, and three votes from other users. All articles with 3 supports go straight to the holding area [from where the articles per week are chosen], while articles with one or more oppose go to the discussion area, where we have a full fledged discussion and voting on opposed articles.

talk

) 14:19, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

I like the idea, but I would say that in this scenario, we can't do self supports, the 3 supports have to be from other editors. But ya, that sounds good. --NickPenguin_(contribs) 17:07, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

Some sort of a table format to shorten the page is a great idea and would help to streamline it. Queues based on 3 supports from editors other than the nominator seems quite functional. I agree that nomination itself should not be counted as an !vote. Nice suggestion! Northamerica1000^(talk) 23:49, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

The arts section has been converted into a table format for now. Please give your opinion on the new format on the TAFI talk page.

talk

) 15:54, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

Overall, I think that some of the proposed rules (Who cares exactly how soon the decision is made? What's wrong with picking something nominated 31 days ago?) are

WP:CREEPy

but not really bad as a rule of thumb to get us started.

I like the idea of including lists. Lists (especially lists that aren't in table form) are accessible to most new editors, especially if they are significantly incomplete and on a fairly popular subject (maybe something from Category:Lists of automobiles or Category:Lists of foods or possibly List of cancer types (which would benefit from very brief descriptions, like * "Astrocytoma, a type of brain cancer usually seen in children")). WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:40, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

PC1

Should pending changes level 1 be applied to TAFI articles for the duration of their post on the main page?

• Oppose – Applying pending changes protection to TAFI entries on the Main page as a default may discourage editor participation, and a significant aspect of publishing them there is to encourage participation. (See: Village pump discussions.) Furthermore, other articles on the Main page don't have pending changes protection on them by virtue of them being present on the main page. Northamerica1000^(talk) 19:48, 8 January 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose we don't generally apply protection until a problem is demonstrated. -—Kvng 19:57, 8 January 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose - Why should we advertise an article with the intention of directing new users to edit it, and then erect barriers to prevent them from doing so? The reviewer backlog would be unmanageably huge as well. ∴ ZX95 ^[discuss] 21:03, 8 January 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose Pending changes is "Intended for infrequently-edited articles" (from the lede of WP:PC), and it highly problematic for frequently-edited articles. While there are other reasons for me to oppose, I feel this objection is sufficient and easily understood. --j⚛e decker^talk 23:32, 9 January 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose This would largely defeat the purpose of putting it on the main page.
  AutomaticStrikeout (T • C
  ) 02:36, 10 January 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose keeping it as open and accessible as possible to attract new editors is the key. Hopefully there'll be enough editors around to revert vandalism ASAP. Casliber (talk · contribs) 23:38, 10 January 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose as that would be working at cross-purposes for the intent of the TAFI implementation. GenQuest ^{"Talk to Me"} 23:54, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

How to implement the random article feature

moved into this RfC for consistency

Following the closure of this discussion it seems there was consensus to run multiple TAFIs at the same time, and randomly show one of them to a visitor. How and who will implement such a feature? Additionally this raises the question about the number of article categories, and the number of articles that would run concurrently. My initial thought is we should select one article from each of the main categories found at the top of the Main Page:

• The Arts
• People and Biography
• Geography and Places
• History and Events
• Mathematics and Science
• Society and Culture
• Technology and Applied Sciences

7 categories would mean that if the one week improvement time-frame is kept, a new article needs to be determined every day. --NickPenguin_(contribs) 02:14, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

The random article feature was proposed to solve the anticipated problem of edit conflicts. I'm not convinced this will actually be a problem. I propose we proceed with current TAFI and solve problems as they actually appear. Looks like we must heed the fear of edit conflicts. -—Kvng 03:22, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

It probably would be easy to construct something on top of {{Random subpage}} or the like, if desired. --j⚛e decker^talk 06:11, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

What about simply selecting all 7 articles as a group at the start of the week or something? -- Toshio Yamaguchi 13:08, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

Note: the discussion here was actually closed in favor of having a single article appear on the main page at a time, chosen randomly from some pool of suitable articles. NickPenguin's suggestion above was also considered in that discussion, but it didn't make it. No need to reinvent the wheel here, guys! Cheers, ∴ ZX95 ^[discuss] 14:56, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

There was no previous discussion of how big the random group chose from should be. Anywhere from 2 to 7 seems like a reasonable number. TAFI is currently selected at the rate of once per week. Do we have the wherewithal to increase this to once per day? If not we can select the first N articles and then every week we can add a new one to the group and remove an old. -—Kvng 15:12, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

Ah, whoops. When I wrote that I had not read the OP very carefully; I was thrown off by the phrasing "... run multiple TAFIs at the same time ...", which, in combination with the list of categories, brought to mind a failed proposal to have many TAFIs displayed together on the Main Page. I have stricken my comment for the record :) Cheers, ∴ ZX95 ^[discuss] 15:17, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

I threw the 7 categories out there as a suggestion. I still think the new article posted every week is a good time frame, but I was saying that 7 articles selected a week turns into 365 a year, or an average rate of one a day. I kind of like the idea touched on by Kvng, we have a floating group number, and as articles are approved, we add them and remove the oldest items from the nominated group. --NickPenguin_(contribs) 17:06, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

Is one a day doable. TAFI is currently doing one a week. I don't think there's a hurry to rotate articles out. Giving editors a prompted opportunity to improve an article more than once over several weeks does not seem to me to be a problem. -—Kvng 20:04, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

Regarding frequency, having a pool of 7 articles (one per each of the main topics at the top of the Main page), to be randomly displayed in the TAFI section on the Main page would be functional at this time. Entries could be chosen on a weekly basis here at TAFI. However, if participation drops, as often occurs at WikiProjects over time, this may have to be modified. If this is to go into effect, editors would need to be notified on this project's main page about the need for diversity in topic nominations, so that each main topical area is covered. In the event that less than 7 nominations are approved weekly, singular rotation as stated above would be functional (newest added, oldest removed). Lastly, an idea is to possibly include a

purge option on the TAFI section of the Main page, to read as "View another selection." Northamerica1000^(talk)

21:16, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

Regarding the implementation of random generation, utilizing wikicode similar to that used by Wikipedia's portals to view new selections could be a possibility. The following code: <div style="text-align:center; margin:0.25em auto 0.75em">{{purge|'''View another selection''' (purge)}}</div>, creates the following link below. Duplicate listings occur from time-to-time, whereby the same article is sometimes listed despite random generation, but it would likely work. Northamerica1000^(talk) 21:48, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

View another selection (purge)

• Update: I've created some test pages in Portal namespace to demonstrate how this can be implemented, at: Portal:Today's article for improvement. Check out how the purge function provides randomization. It appears that the Random portal component will not function in Main namespace to provide randomization, and something likely needs to be developed that will function in it.

The relevant subpages are: Portal:Today's article for improvement/box-header and Portal:Today's article for improvement/Main page queue. Northamerica1000^(talk) 21:45, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

Progress - Random generation

• Update: The Random component appears to be transferable and functional in various namespaces other than the portal one. Please see the new Template:TAFI Main page. To create randomization this utilizes Template:Random component main namespace, which was created by simply copying the wikicode from Random portal component. The Template:TAFI Main page randomly reads directly from one of 10 subpages:

• Template:TAFI Main page/Main page queue/1
• Template:TAFI Main page/Main page queue/2
• Template:TAFI Main page/Main page queue/3
• Template:TAFI Main page/Main page queue/4
• Template:TAFI Main page/Main page queue/5
• Template:TAFI Main page/Main page queue/6
• Template:TAFI Main page/Main page queue/7
• Template:TAFI Main page/Main page queue/8
• Template:TAFI Main page/Main page queue/9
• Template:TAFI Main page/Main page queue/10

It appears that a similar system is possible to be implemented for the Main page area. It's a turnkey process. The "max=" section on the template's edit page: {{Random component main namespace|max=7|header=|subpage=Main page queue}} is updated per the number of weekly articles, and the subpages are updated accordingly per week. In the event of more than 10, the max can be adjusted and new subpages created accordingly. Northamerica1000^(talk) 23:46, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

• A note to everyone: Once the template is transcluded on to the mainpage, it will be cascade protected.
• Note: These pages will have to be created for Wikipedia's
  Main page space. The Random component appears to not be transferable between namespaces, so the code needs to be present on a separate page in the Main page space, from which the (e.g.) {{Random component Main page|max=7|header=|subpage=Main page queue}} reads from via transclusion. Northamerica1000^(talk)
  06:28, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
• Please see
  User:Northamerica1000/TAFI random generation for an overview. Northamerica1000^(talk)
  07:28, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

Should we be welcoming the new users who edit there? If so, how?

I think having some people there to patrol the TAFI article will be good. How about someone like the Welcoming Comittee or the Teahouse keeping an eye out for all the new editors coming in, so that we can give them good guidance?

talk

) 14:19, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

I posted requests for input over at the Welcomeing Comittee and Teahouse talk pages. --NickPenguin_(contribs) 17:04, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

Presumably

welcoming committee to join the TAFI project. -—Kvng

19:23, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

These are all great ideas, and I support the notion of welcoming as part of the project's scope. Northamerica1000^(talk) 23:56, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

To do list

We have already approved having a to-do list. How should we be displaying it? And who adds to the list? I think the best thing to do is to have a few experienced editors go through every article thats to go up to TAFI, and list all the potentials problems. These will be the to-do list that will be displayed to give a sense of direction to the new editors.

talk

) 14:19, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

Sounds like a good plan to me. So we establish the 7 articles for the week, then to-do lists are generated for each article on the talk page, and then everything should be ready when it goes live. --NickPenguin_(contribs) 04:10, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

One line description

Now that I see the proposed template to be placed at the main page, I feel it looks a bit empty. I also find myself trying to remember what exactly that article would be about (as in most cases I would remember "A girl who dresses and acts like a boy" but not the word "Tomboy").

Voting

1. talk
   ) 22:03, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

I agree, I think we should have a one line overview of the subject. For example, suppose we nominated

Their Greatest Hits (1971-1975) to go on the main page. Who's greatest hits? What's a "greatest hit"? In most cases we should include the first line from the article, or provide some context like in DYK content. --NickPenguin_(contribs

) 04:16, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

• Support using a one-line description to provide context for TAFI articles. Check out [3] for an example (scroll down). Northamerica1000^(talk) 06:52, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

Where and how to place it?

In one of the discussions above, editors were in agreement to place TAFI below the DYK entries on the Main page (see this discussion). Regarding implementation, see the above Progress - Random generation for some ideas, and also check out this demo page: Template:TAFI Main page. Northamerica1000^(talk) 00:30, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

By where and how, I implied where in the TAFI section - Should the description line be in a separate line, the same line or maybe before naming the article.

talk

) 14:39, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

Test page

A test page for TAFI's presentation on Wikipedia's

Main page

is located at:

• Wikipedia:Main Page/sandbox
• Wikipedia:Today's article for improvement/main page placement
  (a previous test page)

Northamerica1000^(talk) 06:32, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

Refined comment above, per new Wikipedia:Main Page/sandbox test area. Northamerica1000^(talk) 04:13, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

Category:All unreviewed new articles

The Category:All unreviewed new articles should have a small but dedicated task force to keep it reviewed in a timely way. A break in my effort on this category meant that it balloned in size. A more organized effort is needed, and meanwhile I would welcome some help.--DThomsen8 (talk) 15:44, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

BabbaQ is adding a lot of articles to that category. Why? Ryan Vesey 21:23, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

I was under the impression that the articles was unreviewed and that this "category" could be added by users to these articles. If that was incorrect then I do apologize. But I dont think I have done anything wrong that would make user Ryan Vesey wanting to "investigate" it. Very odd.--BabbaQ (talk) 22:09, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

No, User:BabbaQ, you can add this tag, but most of the tags are from the new articles creation process, but your articles should have talk pages with appropriate templates. My concern here is to get more editors doing the work.--DThomsen8 (talk) 23:12, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

The tag shouldn't be added to articles alone. The only reason articles exist in that category is because they contained at one point {{Userspace draft}}. This was necessary at the time, because articles newly moved from userspace into article space were not patrolled at Special:NewPages. Now, Special:NewPagesFeed does patrol articles that are newly moved into the article space. I suggest that we completely modify {{Userspace draft}} to read the same as {{User sandbox}} when it is in the article space, it no longer serves the purpose it once did. Ryan Vesey 18:44, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

Why not make the watch option in the icons representing Village Pump sections work differently?

When you get to the Village Pump main page you have 5 icons for the 5 sections. Each proposes three options: post, watch and search.

But the way the watch option behaves is not logical: if you are already watching that Village Pump section it is simply redundant. It would be better that it be a toggle watch/unwatch. If you are already watching that section then unwatch should be displayed as an option and the option should be to remove that section from your watchlist. (Incidentally, is this proposal more appropriate for some other Village Pump section?) Signed: Basemetal (write to me here) 21:46, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

SupportI think this will ad functionality and usability to the itnerface, and shouldn't be too har to implement. Retrolord (talk) 10:46, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

Oppose. Waste of developer time with a marginal, insignificant benefit. If you know how to get to the Village Pump, you should be competent enough to manually unwatch a page. —Theopolisme (talk) 22:42, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

Then why have those options in the first place, since in every case "If you know how to do blah you should be competent enough to do blah"? None of those options is crucial. Every time there is another less convenient way to accomplish the same task. Once you start providing options and shortcuts, at least they should work logically and consistently. The benefit may be marginal on this issue and on every such individual small issue but this sort of reaction as yours in every case the interface starts looking more and more incoherent, with the rationale that each time the benefit would be marginal, will result in the end in lots of loose ends and an unpleasant experience overall.

It is not a "waste of developper time" to tie loose ends and to make an interface work in a tighter, more logical way. On the contrary letting such inconsistencies accumulate is what should not be allowed to happen. Your argument reminds me of someone who would consider that putting some used pair of socks into the laundry basket doesn't justify the effort, it's soon enough to pick them up from the floor just when they're about to do their laundry, which may be true for each one pair of used socks individually, but before long their floor will be littered with used socks the picking up of each one of which provided just a "marginal, insignificant benefit". Signed: Basemetal (write to me here) 07:39, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

Two more observations: the goal of my proposal was as much providing a shortcut to unwatching a page as making an option behave in a more logical way. If you do not like watch turning into unwatch, then how about if the watch option disappeared as soon as the page was already watched? Either possibility seems better than the way it currently behaves. Or maybe you actually like the fact that that option behaves in an illogical way?

The second observation is just the type of arguments people often use to oppose or to support proposals. "Waste of developer time". The question was basically "Would you like it better if you had an unwatch option when the page was already watched? Would you agree that it would be a more logical behavior? Or do you actually like the fact that when the page is already being watched the watch option is redundant (i.e. useless)"? That was the real question. Optimal allocation of developer time is a wider issue which is best tackled based on the whole picture of development needs, not for every micro-issue on a case by case basis.

I can't help but find comical arguments used by many (including me probably here and there) who like to micromanage, deeply worry about developer time each in their own corner. My considered opinion is that the most effective strategy in such discussions is focusing narrowly on the issue at hand rather than each participant getting involved in issues that are best tackled in a wider context. Let developers worry about how they organize their time. It's our job to make the proposals and it is their job to see where the priorities lie and which proposal is more important and which less so. Signed: Basemetal (write to me here) 08:17, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

It's our job to make the proposals and it is their job to see where the priorities lie. 'Us' and 'they' are one and the same in my case; it just didn't seem to make sense to me at first glance. Or maybe you actually like the fact that that option behaves in an illogical way? No need to get

tl;dr above, but, frankly, this doesn't seem to be a used sock. The [watch] link is simply a convenience, and developing an entirely new method to add two characters seems to outweight the pluses. One could easily write some javascript to make the change, but a slower page load doesn't seem to be worth it. —Theopolisme (talk

) 21:15, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

I do not know how much developer time it should take, but from the look of it, it appears a few lines of code (not more than dozen more) would be sufficient to make the change. As for the benefit proposed by this, I think having more consistency in how things behave would be considerably useful compared to the marginal amount of work required for implementing it, and a the few milliseconds extra that the page takes to load. So I'd Support this proposal.

talk

) 11:54, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

Customized Welcomes

Here's an idea for welcoming new users (especially considering the latest report about most new users being greeted with automated warning templates. How about if new users were given customized welcomes, either by a bot or by people reading a bot-prepared list? For example, if someone with a French-sounding username edits an article about a museum, we invite him/her to Wikipedia:WikiProject Museums, Wikipedia:WikiProject France, and suggest some French museums in need of improvement. We could even give an invitation to look at the French Wikipedia. Thoughts? -- YPNYPN ✡ 04:44, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

Basing a welcome on their actual edits, rather than what their username "sounds like", would probably be a better idea... though, for the record, I do think tailoring the welcome templates is a good idea. EVula // talk // ☯ // 05:19, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

I sometimes tailor my welcomes by adding a wikiproject that's relevant to their editing. It is a lot of faff to do that manually but if someone could do that programmatically I'd happily use a welcome that included a line promoting any wikiproject that was relevant according to the articles categories or talkpage templates. That would only work for writers of new articles if like me you are welcoming someone whosse new article you'd just categorised, but it would work for most of that majority of newbies who start by editing existing articles. Otherwise the real point I'd make from that survey is that we aren't welcoming enough good faith newbies. Better in my view to welcome someone for their first good edit than start them with a warning for adding unsourced data. ϢereSpielChequers 15:19, 8 February 2013 (UTC)