Another solution suggested is that spoiler templates be deleted altogether.

Support (deleting spoiler templates)

1. Spoiler warnings are not appropriate in an encyclopedia. Wikipedia contains information. That's what encyclopedias do, and warning about it is silly. The standard disclaimer at the bottom of every page is enough, and we should do like the Germans did and simply ban them. Shanes 14:40, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
2. Utterly unencyclopediac. Irrelevant to the construction of an encyclopedia. -Randall Brackett 15:03, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
3. Inappropriate.
   s/p 16:25, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply
   ]
4. Ryu Kaze — Preferred solution, though I'd accept the "turned off by default" compromise if others would agree to it. As said there, principles come before courtesies in creating an encyclopedia every single time. If someone's offended that this place is a comprehensive body of information, then maybe they shouldn't be coming here. We're here to make an encyclopedia, not jump at every problem a reader might have with relevant content.
5. Wikipedia will never be a truly spolier-safe environment as long as it's freely editable. Meanwhile, the tags themselves have a negative effect on article organization, since they encourage editing to keep spoiler-information together. My strong preference would be to either get rid of them, or as a second choice, to find a way to limit their use to the most critical cases. -- Lee Bailey^(talk) 17:59, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
6. Movie Encyclopedias don't use spoiler warnings. What does that make WP? AMHR285 ^(talk) 21:02, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
7. Spoiler notices on Wikipedia have always struck me as the equivalent of saying, "Warning we are about to tell you things about the subject you asked us to tell you about!" If someone doesn't want to be 'spoiled' about something my very first suggestion would be to not look up a comprehensive encyclopedia article on that thing. Further, the argument that, 'oh, but spoiler warnings do no harm', is unfortunately untrue. I've seen too many articles mangled by absurd convolutions where essential/fundamental facts about the subject are banished from the lead because they have to be contained within a designated 'spoiler section' - which then generally has little organizational logic to it except that someone felt the information in there required pre-warning. Or every other paragraph has to be 'spoiler-warned'. Wikipedia articles should be free to be organized in a way that makes sense for an encyclopedia... not as if they were some random Usenet message that the reader just happened to stumble upon and which they might not realize was going to be about a subject they don't want to be 'spoiled' on. --CBD 10:37, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
8. Despite having had some plotlines spoilt for me (on talk pages no less), I am deeply uncomfortable with the appearance of the spoiler tags and the impression they give. It does look very unencyclopedic and I feel that editors of articles should think carefully about how to write an article to indicate that spoilers are about to be mentioned, without the need for slapping a template on something and shoehorning things into certain sections as "spoiler material". Fundamentally, I think use of spoiler tags is lazy, as a bit of thought and careful writing generally does the same job and looks better. Carcharoth 11:13, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
9. I believe spoiler tags to be superfluous to the site-wide policy, unreliable, and contradictory to Wikipdia's goals. --Revlob 11:05, 19 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
10. In a properly structured article, what on earth does the template add? The template could perhaps be useful for articles like
    Illiad, or the Emperor's demise in Return of the Jedi. [I have placed this above Travis' vote to preserve the final count.]--Monocrat 17:04, 22 July 2006 (UTC)[reply
    ]
11. Spoiler warnings are superfluous and violate the NPOV policy. For a section titled "Plot" to have a spoiler warning is redundant. For any plot to having a spoiler warning invokes POV. Why do some plots get spoiler warnings and not others? It's ridiculous. Travislangley 21:09, 19 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

    Comment: But what about places where plot twists are revealed in other areas other than the plot synopsis, as shown here? Reading about the true nature of Saffron would completely ruin the episode she appears in. It is THE main twist of the episode -plange 21:33, 19 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

12. Phil Sandifer 02:09, 1 August 2006 (UTC)[reply
    ]
13. Wikipedia is an Encyclopedia. An Encyclopedia has to show knowledge in a neutral point of view and has not to warn against knowledge. Wikipedia is also NO film-magazine, that hides relevant information of movies for commercial sake or likes. Has one ever seen a "spoiler-warning" in the Encyclopædia Britannica wheresoever? --Wittkowsky 13:24, 17 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

    False comparison; EB doesn't include up-to-the-second information on current TV shows, video games, and films. Powers ^T 14:24, 17 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose (deleting spoiler templates)

1. badlydrawnjeff talk 12:52, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
2. I don't think they need to be removed at all, and removing the template will only cause editors who still disagree to make their own forked templates and messages. Then we won't even be able to regulate their appearance or turn them off at all. -- Ned Scott 13:22, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
3. :: Kevinalewis : ^{(Talk Page)}/_(Desk) 14:34, 17 July 2006 (UTC) - Now that would just be silly![reply]
4. Johntex 15:27, 17 July 2006 (UTC) - Very useful and not problematic. They should be kept.[reply]
5. ^juppiter talk #c 16:06, 17 July 2006 (UTC) Wikipedia broke the encyclopedia mold.[reply]
6. Too far. Hipocrite - «Talk» 16:36, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
7. DyslexicEditor 18:23, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply
   ]
8. EWS23 (Leave me a message!) 19:59, 17 July 2006 (UTC)- Spoiler tags are beneficial to readers, and in the end, that's what this entire encyclopedia is all about.[reply]
9. Per EWS23 and others. AnonEMouse ^(squeak) 20:32, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
10. I can't believe this is even a discussion. This is standard stuff on any website that discloses plot details. It is not giving a POV that it will be ruined but rather warns users that plot details will be revealed and lets them decide themselves whether to proceed plange 21:14, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
11. On a website that gives plot details it's a must. Wheather it's an encylopeida or not. It is unprofensional to not include them. Tobyk777 01:48, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
12. Spoiler tags are a must Konman72 02:06, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
13. —TheJC (Talk • Contribs • Count) 02:26, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
14. This solution completely ignores the fact that Wikipedia is different from a print encyclopedia in that information can be updated and accessed immediately, often before a primary source is actually available, such as with promotional material. Reader have a right to evaluate and discriminate the source before they read the information. There isn't a scholarly imperitive associated with Wikipedia that they MUST learn whether they like it or not. CovenantD 02:31, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

    Since when do we force people to come to wikipedia...? -Randall Brackett 13:37, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

15. IMO this falls into the "it's causing no harm to anyone" category, plus it is simply common courtesy, particularly for recent material. 23skidoo 02:51, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
16. as per Plange above. Grey Shadow 06:59, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
17. Shane ^{(talk/contrib)}
18. Oppose to the nth degree. (I wrote a bit of an essay on this earlier, which can be read here. Removing these comments since I wrote an individual user statement below). 08:41, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
19. RobbieG 09:17, 18 July 2006 (UTC) - I'm strongly opposed to this. Spoiler warnings are a valuable aspect of Wikipedia's style.[reply]
20. Hidden or shown, I could go either way. Hidden only as long as their existence are revealed to new users in some way above the article (tab, informative disclaimer link, etc.) --GunnarRene 12:38, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
21. Much ado about nothing. --Dhartung | Talk 06:46, 19 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
22. -Hit bull, win steak^(Moo!) 15:07, 19 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
23. Without spoiler warnings, I personally would not want to browse randomly as i sometimes do, with the constant fear of having something be spoiled for me. Removing spoiler warnings would basically make me less likely to read and work on wikipedia. demeteloaf (talk) 23:48, 19 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
24. Force10 00:19, 20 July 2006 (UTC) - we need to keep the spoiler tags, for sure.[reply]
25. As a member of both
    WP:FIREFLY, I have to say it would be ridiculous not to have them. They're incredibly useful. - CheNuevara 15:27, 21 July 2006 (UTC)[reply
    ]
26. PeregrineV 03:18, 22 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
27. Alsaan 04:43, 25 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
28. Bondegezou 16:25, 25 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
29. Per comments above. TheronJ 21:30, 28 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
30. Spoiler templates give warning for those that do not wish to have storylines spoiled, it is absoultley silly that a select few wish to compromise the integrity of this encyclopedia by removing them. Matthew Fenton (contribs) 11:36, 29 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
31. Spoiler templates are useful, they are needed for readers, they are not disturbing the article text — what more do you need to call something "good"? --Akral 19:32, 29 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
32. east.718 01:02, 30 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
33. Wai Wai (talk): Spoiler tag is useful. What hurts to leave it here? Reasons for deleting the spoiler tag are not sound. The personal feeling like it's annoying or looks bad or un-wikipedia and so on, does not really matter because 1) it's just personal feeling (different people have different feeling anyway). 2) There's always alternative to satisfy both parties (eg user can select whether to display spoiler by default). After all, it should be kept due to its benefits.--04:23, 30 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
34. Karen | Talk | contribs 05:02, 30 July 2006 (UTC): The annoyance of people who don't like or want spoiler tags seems to be outweighed by the number of people who like them and rely on them. I agree that guidelines should discourage their overuse, but there are clearly times when people legitimately benefit from the heads-up. The tags do not advocate that no one read the next bit, but give the reader a choice. The idea that because a print encyclopedia doesn't use them and therefore Wikipedia should not ignores the qualities that give this medium advantages over print, particularly its ability to be updated nearly instantaneously when new information arises and its ability to accomodate large amounts of popular culture information without pushing aside more traditional subject matter.[reply]
35. Wikipedia Neutrality Project| 21:02, 30 July 2006 (UTC) - The benefits of these tags outweight a couple extra lines, and there are no actual violations.[reply
    ]
36. Thelb⁴ 08:14, 31 July 2006 (UTC) Rubbish. Remove spoiler tags? Even though the world is full of technology, the only ones to look at these pages will be people, who'd be very dissapointed if they weren't warned that they discovered the end of a book or film.[reply]
37. jwanders^Talk 00:39, 1 August 2006 (UTC):None of the anti-spoiler arguments above have convinced me they aren't a good thing.[reply]
38. Swift 06:25, 1 August 2006 (UTC): Spoilers are a useful addition to conventional aids such as section headers to guide readers to the content they are seeking.[reply]
39. per
    here: "You can choose to ignore medical-related content on Wikipedia, but once you've read a spoiler, you can't just pretend you never read it." --Zoz (t) 16:20, 7 August 2006 (UTC)[reply
    ]
40. Markeer 21:16, 10 August 2006 (UTC) Unlike other encyclopedias, Wikipedia is in real time and needs to adjust itself to that[reply]
41. Marc Shepherd 15:27, 14 August 2006 (UTC) Although frequently mis-used, in limited circumstances these templates are useful.[reply]
42. Brisvegas 00:04, 17 August 2006 (UTC) Per own and others' comments above.[reply]
43. Lkjhgfdsa 00:23, 24 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose this process (deleting spoiler templates)

1. I oppose the process of what is essentially a TfD done without notification on the template itself and outside of the existing TfD structure. ~~---- —The preceding
   unsigned comment was added by Kunzite (talk • contribs
   ) .

   This isn't the deletion process or a vote, but an attempt to gain structured feedback from users. However, notification via the template might be appropriate. -- Ned Scott 12:42, 19 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

   ...if the solution/compromise/whatever moves toward template deletion, then a proper TfD with notification on the template still has to be conducted. We're just gathering comments now.--GunnarRene 13:09, 19 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

   Also note that this template underwent a TfD about two months ago, with an overwhelming consensus of keep. EWS23 (Leave me a message!) 21:47, 19 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I still maintain that this question is not appropriate for this forum or this discussion and that any action suggested by the RfC for these two questions (which are pretty much one in the same) would be inappropriate because of lack of notification and deviation from established procedure. --Kunzite 23:10, 19 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: That "overwhelming consensus" was actually not a consensus at all. Consensus on Wikipedia is determined through logical discussion and solid counterpoints, not a show of hands or people saying "Keep", "Are you insane?" and "This is a joke, right?" TfD even cites it as mandatory that people provide reasoning for their positions, yet most of the "keep"ers there ignored that. The very few people involved in that discussion who even bothered to provide a reason for keeping spoiler tags only cited "They're useful" without addressing NPOV and no censorship violations, or the fact that many useful things are not included in Wikipedia because they don't help the encyclopedia's mission or outright contradict it. It's been said many times, but always gets ignored: usefulness alone doesn't merit inclusion here. The policies make this quite clear. Of course, we have plenty of people here who think courtesies are more important than the integrity of encyclopedic principle, so it doesn't matter, I guess. Ryu Kaze 22:02, 19 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Would you mind assuming good faith here? That was almost uncivil. CovenantD 22:10, 19 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yes... that's why we're all here on the RfC... and it's very clear that you feel that way, so there's no need to re-explain yourself every time someone says something you disagree with. -- Ned Scott 22:53, 19 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Ryu, you are also incorrect. While it is true that polls don't generally build concensus, they do eventually determine concensus in the sense that they are used to determine if consensus has been reached, and if so, what that consensus is. As to your statement about people addressing whether the templates are POV or not - I would like to point out that people don't have to follow your agenda. If they don't feel your POV theory is worth responding to, then they are under no obligation to do so. Johntex\^talk 00:26, 20 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, you kind of do have to address somebody's argument in a discussion. It's kind of required. You can't just pretend somebody's not talking and your side's motion pass. Not supposed to work that way.

Anyway, I wasn't part of that discussion, so not sure what your point is.

Moving on, as far as I know, I've never said that a poll doesn't ultimately determine consensus, but that's only after issues have been discussed and one set of reasoning has defeated another. Didn't happen in that case, so I'm not sure what your point is there either. Now can we please get back on the subject? Ryu Kaze 00:44, 20 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I think you need to quit implying we are off subject when we are not. There are too many people on Wikipedia for one set of reasoning to "defeat" another in the minds of all people. We will end up going with what the supermajority want to do, as we do routinely in other cases. And again, everyone does not have to respond to every argument. They are free to make their own points without responding directly to yours. You don't get to dictate the path of the discussion and what everyone else chooses to address. Johntex\^talk 19:02, 20 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The part where I said "Now can we please get back on the subject?" was after the third or fouth time a personal comment had been made directly at me. That comment you responded to there is almost 24 hours old now.

Anyway, even if every person involved doesn't address a point, it does have to get addressed by someone arguing for the opposing side. That is required. Points left outstanding are still "in play" so to speak. This is how it goes in TfDs, FACs and the like. Ryu Kaze 19:06, 20 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Keep spoiler tags with options to revise guidelines to see when it is appropriate to use the tag or not.

Support (keeping spoiler tags)

1. badlydrawnjeff talk 12:52, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
2. Per the comments I'll eventually write up once I calm down, but in any case, I am totally opposed to the complete removal of a spoiler tag. Ned Scott 13:22, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
3. :: Kevinalewis : ^{(Talk Page)}/_(Desk) 14:35, 17 July 2006 (UTC) - It ain't broke - so![reply]
4. Johntex 15:27, 17 July 2006 (UTC) - Keep them as they are.[reply]
5. ^juppiter talk #c 16:02, 17 July 2006 (UTC) Getting rid of them could upset people[reply]
6. Use needs to be substantially curtailed. See my edits to template coming shortly. Hipocrite - «Talk» 16:37, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
7. As per my argument below. If we remove spoiler tags, then let's spoil the next Harry Potter book on the front page!
   DyslexicEditor 18:18, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply
   ]
8. EWS23 (Leave me a message!) 20:02, 17 July 2006 (UTC)- I've always been a big proponent of spoiler tags, though I've generally stayed out of the current discussion due to time constraints. Spoiler tags are important to readers, and therefore should be important to writers.[reply]
9. Per EWS23 and others. They are helpful. AnonEMouse ^(squeak) 20:32, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
10. plange 21:15, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
11. A must Tobyk777 01:50, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
12. Almost all my edits are done on fictional articles and I know the importance of spoiler tags. They may not be perfectly encyclopedic, but the flexible nature of Wikipedia means that we get information up much faster than a written encyclopedia, which drastically increases the chances of posting of spoilers. They are a must! Konman72 02:05, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
13. —TheJC (Talk • Contribs • Count) 02:28, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
14. With the caveat that the guidelines will be revisited. CovenantD 02:33, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
15. Making note of Plange's caveat below, based on current wording as of my timestamp, I saw keep but I have no objection to guidelines being examined. 23skidoo 02:54, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
16. Shane ^{(talk/contrib)}
17. RobbieG 09:19, 18 July 2006 (UTC) - This'd be better than doing away with them completely, even if it means we haven't progressed.[reply]
18. GunnarRene 12:42, 18 July 2006 (UTC) - Consistent with my other opinions.[reply]
19. This is reasonable, and will allow for some flexibility and article-by-article consensus. --Dhartung | Talk 06:49, 19 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
20. -Hit bull, win steak^(Moo!) 15:08, 19 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
21. Force10 00:20, 20 July 2006 (UTC) - Keep for sure. They are needed.[reply]
22. Karwynn (talk) 21:36, 20 July 2006 (UTC) Why throw away a harmless reader convenience?[reply
    ]
23. With no spoiler tags, you could ruin many movies for people who didn't want them to be ruined. Surprises in movie are part of why we see them. It would be ridiculous to remove them. Definitely keep them.RoryS89 02:03, 21 July 2006 (UTC)RoryS89[reply]
24. The NPOV and censorship arguments don't seem to hold up under any weight. And while Wikipedia is encyclopedia, it is not professional ... if it were, none of you would be editing it right now. - CheNuevara 15:28, 21 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
25. PeregrineV 03:00, 22 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
26. Alsaan 04:42, 25 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
27. Keep 'em, they can be helpful. Colonial One 06:39, 26 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
28. Keem them as is, they can help and never hurt. Categorizing information as "spoiler" or "non-spoiler" isn't any more OR than categorizing information into "plot," "references to other works" or any of the other subsections. TheronJ 21:28, 28 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
29. Spoiler tags are informative, though so may not be of much help. Matthew Fenton (contribs) 11:37, 29 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
30. Spoiler tags are simply needed by readers. When I read about a book, I don't want to accidently know the ending. At the same time, it's very easy for me to read it, the information is not hidden in any way. Akral 19:00, 29 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
31. east.718 01:02, 30 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
32. Wai Wai (talk): Spoiler tag is useful. What hurts to leave it here? Reasons for deleting the spoiler tag are not sound. The personal feeling like it's annoying or looks bad or un-wikipedia and so on, does not really matter because 1) it's just personal feeling (different people have different feeling anyway). 2) There's always alternative to satisfy both parties (eg user can select whether to display spoiler by default). After all, it should be kept due to its benefits.--04:23, 30 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
33. Karen | Talk | contribs 05:07, 30 July 2006 (UTC) Keep, with guidelines discouraging overuse, per my comment in previous section above.[reply]
34. Wikipedia Neutrality Project| 21:03, 30 July 2006 (UTC) - The benefits of these tags outweight a couple extra lines, and there are no actual violations.[reply
    ]
35. WP:SPOIL says pretty much everything that need be said.[reply
    ]
36. Chris Griswold 10:51, 2 August 2006 (UTC) Spoiler tags keep new editors from deleting appropriate information.[reply]
37. DrunkenSmurf 15:35, 3 August 2006 (UTC) I think the NPOV an censorship arguements above are completely ridiculous.[reply]
38. Marc Shepherd 15:32, 14 August 2006 (UTC) I think they are useful in limited circumstances, although the guideline needs revision to constrain the situations in which they are used.[reply]
39. Swift 23:36, 14 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
40. SnowFire 02:32, 22 August 2006 (UTC) I too am opposed to deleting Spoiler tags. The alternative is to delete all spoiler information from Wikipedia, which would greatly hamper its operation, or have spoiler information in separate "plot analysis" pages which would seem horribly clunky. I like being able to read articles and be told if it's "safe" to read on; if I didn't have that guarantee, some useful articles would simply go unread completely. (Edit: Forgot important word in there.)[reply]
41. Lkjhgfdsa 00:23, 24 August 2006 (UTC) As a catalyst behind Template:Endspoiler (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Village_pump_%28proposals%29&diff=prev&oldid=11227499), I'd like to see further exploration into show/hide toggles for spoilers.[reply]
42. Intelligence3 04:21, 2 September 2006 (UTC) Keeping spoiler tags serves the needs of users best. It gives alert to the ensuing content in a user-friendly way, being the most clear to the most users, allowing them to choose whether to read further.[reply]

Oppose (keeping spoiler tags)

1. As per my support to their removal. Shanes 14:48, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
2. Inappropriate in an proffesional source of knowledge. Has no value in an encyclopedia.-Randall Brackett 15:04, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
3. Ryu Kaze — As per my support to their being removed.
4. As stated above. -- Lee Bailey^(talk) 00:48, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
5. --CBD 10:45, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
6. --Revlob 11:08, 19 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
7. Oops. Missed the need to oppose the keep option. 23:51, 19 July 2006 (UTC)—The preceding
   unsigned comment was added by Carcharoth (talk • contribs
   ) .

   Comment:Well these two options (delete and keep) are almost complete opposites, except that this one suggests guideline changes too. --GunnarRene 07:32, 20 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

9. Delete it per above.--Monocrat 17:06, 22 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

See also Oppose this process

Comment (keeping spoiler tags)

someone just changed this definition AFTER people had signed.plange 02:45, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

That would be me. I don't think I actually changed the meaning of this proposal, but added that if they were kept then the appearance could even be looked at. Which is something one would normally assume, since on Wikipedia nothing is set in stone, but I thought it might be good to make it clear. Here's the edit. If you feel that I have changed the meaning of this proposal then by all means change the wording back. -- Ned Scott 05:42, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Alright, I took out the little blurb about the tag apperance. The last thing I want from all this is for someone to say that the results are somehow invalid because of something small like this.. :) -- Ned Scott 07:25, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

To clarify, this concept can go hand in hand with the idea of the guideline. "No guideline is absolute, and whenever there's a gray area things can be taken to the talk page of that article." vs "guideline trumps all". -- Ned Scott 02:48, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Note: Some of the opinions below were added before the above clarification.--GunnarRene 04:30, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Support (case-by-case spoilers)

1. badlydrawnjeff talk 12:52, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
2. :: Kevinalewis : ^{(Talk Page)}/_(Desk) 14:35, 17 July 2006 (UTC) - Leave to community and trust the majority of editors.[reply]
3. Leave to community, but curtail use to only eggregious spoilers. Hipocrite - «Talk» 16:37, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
4. Offer guidance on how to use, offer guidance on where to use, but make it clear they are not the default and should be discussed on a case by case basis. Hiding Talk 18:02, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
5. As most other things in the encyclopedia. AnonEMouse ^(squeak) 20:33, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
6. I don't see a difference between this and the solution above. Spoiler tags are already, by default, decided on a case by case basis. That's what a guideline is all about. CovenantD 02:35, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
7. A template is a template. If there is a difference of opinion of whether it should be included in an article, removed from an article, or its location in the article changed, that should be discussed on the article's talk page — as with most controversial changes and changes where there are disagreements. —TheJC (Talk • Contribs • Count) 02:42, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
8. Support only if accompanied by a guideline as well. Guidelines shouldn't be absolute and should allow editors to discuss gray areas, if need be. Spoiler tags require context, different works of fiction treat things in different ways. -- Ned Scott 05:49, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
9. I'm not opposed to guidelines, but editors should be free to handle specific instances with some flexibility under consensus. --Dhartung | Talk 06:50, 19 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
10. Conditional support Guidelines should be made about when spoilers should be used. Most works of fiction should get the tag. (However, there should always be exceptions.) The tag should be unobtrusive, but visable. (Current state is fine.) It should be uniformly at the top of the page, below the lead, but above the TOC. (This is the way other language wikipedia's do this.) I would like to see ONE and only ONE spoiler tag per article. Opening and closing spoiler tags per article section is just silly. --Kunzite 12:31, 19 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
11. Force10 00:21, 20 July 2006 (UTC) Leave it up to the individual editors. They are most likely to know what is appropriate for any particular article.[reply]
12. PeregrineV 03:21, 22 July 2006 (UTC) - This makes the most sense. King Kong doesn't need spoiler warnings, but other works of fiction may. Case-by-case makes the most sense.[reply]

    Comment Why doesn't King Kong need spoiler warnings? I know the ending of the film with the sky scraper, but I don't know anything else that happens. I haven't seen any version, but I'm thinking of seeing the remade version soon, and I'd be annoyed if people went around spoiling it for me. RobbieG 07:51, 22 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

13. east.718 01:02, 30 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
14. Support, this is a pretty central princple of all disputes. Christopher Parham (talk) 16:56, 4 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
15. Conditional support, subject to revision of the guideline so that there will be some reasonable guard-rails around the practice. Marc Shepherd 15:59, 14 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
16. Swift 23:39, 14 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose (case-by-case spoilers)

1. Always have spoiler tags.
   DyslexicEditor 18:23, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply
   ]
2. As I stated above, I support removing spoiler tags, but if they stay, we need to have clear guidelines on when it's appropriate to use them. Unpredictably-applied spoiler tags are un-helpful to the reader and unprofessional-looking, the worst of both worlds. -- Lee Bailey^(talk) 00:57, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
3. Always have the tags. They're a must. Tobyk777 01:49, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
4. Trying to decide on a case-by-case basis would open things up to NPOV vs. POV. Better to err on the side of tagging. 23skidoo 02:55, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
5. Agreeing with 23skidoo Shane ^{(talk/contrib)}
6. RobbieG 09:21, 18 July 2006 (UTC) - This sounds awfully like a violation of our NPOV policy.[reply]
7. I agree with RobbieG. Keep them in all cases. - CheNuevara 15:30, 21 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
8. Actually, I prefer more flexibility, and leaving them optional would be fine - but this petty issue just isn't worth debates which would start. I'd suggest, though, that if article's editors have a consensus about removing them, the guideline should be no objection. -
   Wikipedia Neutrality Project| 21:10, 30 July 2006 (UTC)[reply
   ]

• As per my op. below, I think we need a guideline on how they're used, as well as reasonable limits for when to use them, with editors making the case by case decision fitting the subject of each individual article but based on the guidelines. --GunnarRene 00:57, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• I request clarification of this point. Case by case on how, when, or whether to use spoiler tags? --GunnarRene 02:41, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I wonder if we should scratch this section or not, due to the possible confusion. It is something we can decide after we know if spoiler tags will be included or not and/or if there will be a guideline status. -- Ned Scott 03:21, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Case by case in that people can't say "Look,

Wikipedia:Spoiler warning is a guideline and so clearly states that I can insert this spoiler template into this article on the crucification, because it's spoilage." My view is that we should offer a style guide on how to use spoiler templates, but that where they should be used should be settled on a case by case basis, with guidance on what constitutes a spoiler kept brief to avoid wikilawyering. Note that we have people opposing this, stating that spoiler templates should always be used. I hope we all agree that comment needs clarifying. Hiding Talk 11:05, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply

]

If the guidline says anyhing about when to use spoiler tags we would avoid the problem mentioned above. As I said, let editors work it out within the outer limits of the guideline. If we say "for fictional works" the editors can work out how to apply this to the

The Bible. Examples of works needing spoiler tags: The Da Vinci Code". --GunnarRene 12:54, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply

]

Actually, I see we basically have the same opinion on this point. :-) --GunnarRene 13:02, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Spoiler templates were previously listed as a guideline, but it has been proposed that they be downgraded to essay status — a document that expresses the opinions and ideas of some Wikipedians, but that doesn't necessarily reflect Wikipedia's policies or actual consensus — or rejected as a proposal that failed to gain consensus.

Editors may also wish to read

Support of essay status

{{spoiler-blank|Plot details from Star Wars follow}}

1. Ryu Kaze — If they remain, then they most definitely shouldn't be a guideline, which gives the impression that a comprehensive body of information supports censorship and shielding of knowledge.
2. At the very least 'spoiler' concerns should be downgraded to something which some people feel should be used in extreme circumstances. Currently we have separate articles on
   Anakin Skywalker, despite them being the same person, in part due to 'spoiler' concerns. Tell me... how many people did I just 'spoil' that for? He was also Luke Skywalker's father! Wow, huh? The fact that we have spoiler warnings all over these facts that virtually everyone knows is frankly absurd. We twist articles into pretzles trying to 'warn' people about things most of them know and for which they shouldn't be here if they don't want to know. Maybe it would be reasonable to have spoiler warnings on books/films/et cetera which have just come out... but doing so for facts which are decades old is just silly. --CBD 11:14, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply
   ]

1. badlydrawnjeff talk 12:53, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
2. Clearly, any inclusion would need a guideline. Calling it an essay won't discourage editors from using it, if that's the goal. -- Ned Scott 13:22, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
3. :: Kevinalewis : ^{(Talk Page)}/_(Desk) 14:36, 17 July 2006 (UTC) - a guideline is understandable - I can't even get my mind round what an essay is in this context![reply]
4. Johntex 15:27, 17 July 2006 (UTC) - It should remain a guideline spelling out suggested good uses.[reply]
5. DyslexicEditor 18:24, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply
   ]
6. EWS23 (Leave me a message!) 20:07, 17 July 2006 (UTC)- This is quite simply not an essay; it is not an opinion piece written by a single author, it is a way of doing things that is in wide use throughout the encyclopedia.[reply]
7. Per EWS23, Johntex, and others. AnonEMouse ^(squeak) 20:34, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
8. I support a style guide for use of spoiler tags/templates for consistency of how it's used, as well as reasonable limits for when to use them, and editors sorting out the details on the individual article. --GunnarRene 00:27, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
9. Essays are useless. Keep it as a guideline, but if necessary review the guidelines. 23skidoo 02:56, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
10. Keep it as a guideline. Grey Shadow 07:06, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
11. Must be guideline Shane ^{(talk/contrib)} 08:26, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
12. RobbieG 09:23, 18 July 2006 (UTC) - What would be the point otherwise?[reply]
13. plange 15:51, 18 July 2006 (UTC) per Johntex above[reply]
14. Conditional per clarifications on when and where to use. --Kunzite 12:33, 19 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
15. -Hit bull, win steak^(Moo!) 15:08, 19 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
16. - Force10 00:40, 20 July 2006 (UTC) - Yes, it should remain a guideline.[reply]
17. What more is there to say? They should be used. - CheNuevara 15:32, 21 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
18. They're a guideline. Changes to the guidline consensus, if any, can be reflected in the guideline itself. TheronJ 21:32, 28 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
19. This must definitley be a guide line. Matthew Fenton (contribs) 11:39, 29 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
20. east.718 01:02, 30 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
21. Wikipedia Neutrality Project| 21:17, 30 July 2006 (UTC) - Essays are plain useless. Their status fits with guideline just fine; it's a problem that some people use guidelines like policies, not that this has lower status.[reply
    ]
22. jwanders^Talk 00:48, 1 August 2006 (UTC): Guideline seems the best compromise in this case; Personaly, I'd expect them to be policy, but there's obviously enough users who'd have them removed that guideline-level seems the right balance.[reply]
23. Chris Griswold 10:53, 2 August 2006 (UTC) I don't know what to add to the discussion.[reply]
24. Keep it as a guideline. --Zoz (t) 16:25, 7 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
25. Marc Shepherd 16:02, 14 August 2006 (UTC) Support as guideline, although the current guideline needs rewriting to give more concrete guidance as to when they are, and are not, appropriate.[reply]
26. Swift 23:40, 14 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Support of rejected status

1. The silly warnings should simply go, and if anyone wants to complain about how Cinderella now has been ruined for them, they can write a userspace essay and rant about how "useful" the warnings were there. Shanes 14:44, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
2. Per "..a document that expresses the opinions and ideas of some Wikipedians, but that doesn't necessarily reflect Wikipedia's policies or actual consensus." -Randall Brackett 15:06, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
3. Ryu Kaze — Per Randall's quote of the essay description.
4. Per reasoning by
   s/p 16:21, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply
   ]
5. If the spoiler-tag is not deleted, we need a guideline that suggests reasonable limits as to when the tag should be used. Since I believe most editors would agree that there are cases where it is okay to not use a spoiler-tag for basic plot information (Hansel and Gretel springs to mind) I believe it would be better to spend further time coming to an agreement about when and how they should be used, then ratify a guideline only when we've decided specifically what cases the tags should apply to -- we shouldn't just approve a guideline as-is with the intent of radically altering it later. -- Lee Bailey^(talk) 21:13, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
6. --CBD 10:48, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
7. These "guidelines" have quite resoundingly been rejected for operas, and we need to recognize they are ludicrous in many other instances. We have a spoiler on Beowulf? Please. - Nunh-huh 17:21, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
8. Missed this as well. There are too many options to vote on!! It's like voting in a European parliamentary election.... Carcharoth 23:54, 19 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
9. Monocrat. Ryu, Randall and Lee make compelling cases.
10. Phil Sandifer 02:09, 1 August 2006 (UTC)[reply
    ]

1. WP already has Template:Magic-spoiler (Though it should be renamed Template:Spoiler-magic for consistancy of naming.)
2. WP already has
   Video games. (Perhaps should be renamed Template:Spoiler-solution
   for consistancy of naming.)
3. Template:Spoiler-ongoing - Used for ongoing plots involving the setting, characters, situations, etc. (such as in comic books and television series). Should use the format of Template:Spoiler-about.
4. Template:Spoiler-ending - Used for the final "end" of a series, a film, a book, or even a subsection (such as the details of the death of a character within a film). Also may be used to show the winner(s) of a game event (such as a tournament). Should use the format of Template:Spoiler-about.
5. Template:Spoiler-solicitation - Use includes any information gleaned from advertising or promotions.
6. Use of the generic templates Template:Spoiler, Template:Spoiler-about, and Template:Spoiler-blank, should be kept to an absolute minimum.
7. Template:Spoiler-other - As a combinative spoiler warning, it should be removed, since it does not differentiate between types. (Alternately, it could be potentially re-worked to include such differentiation.)

Support (categorize spoilers more clearly)

Oppose (categorize spoilers more clearly)

1. While some of the ideas aren't bad, I'm definitely opposed to including any of the "current" templates and events that are not fiction in these guidelines (even for reality TV, sports events, game shows, etc). That just opens up a whole other mess and there's really no reason to not have "current" be it's own thing. I also think we should simplify the tags, maybe to the extent of simply saying "Spoilers follow", rather than start to branch off and have specific spoiler templates. I can see solution, a generic spoiler tag, and a spoiler tag with a variable message. I think solution should be a "spoiler" of sorts that isn't about a plot, like a puzzle or magic trick, but still isn't about a real life event. -- Ned Scott 05:38, 29 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
2. Per Ned Scott Matthew Fenton (contribs) 11:40, 29 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
3. Per Ned Scott --Shane ^{(talk/contrib)} 07:27, 31 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
4. Per Ned Scott RobbieG 07:46, 31 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
5. Agreed on excluding the current event tags from this, but I think the variable spoilers have merit. -- nae'blis 16:31, 31 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Comment (categorize spoilers more clearly)

I'm a little confused about this. Surely you aren't proposing that we start labelling the current event tags as spoiler warnings? They serve a completely different purpose, equivalent to "Work in progress" signs. I'd be happy for you to change the names of templates to make them more in line with the accepted structure, but I'm not quite sure what your suggestion is. Anything more radical I'd be hesitant about. RobbieG 08:31, 29 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with Robbie here, I always thought of the current tags as more of a cleanup / incomplete / verifiable warning / etc type template. I wasn't aware that people were using them to warn readers of the outcome of events. Works of fiction don't really know time, since when you read or watch fiction, it happens "now".

WP:SPOILER. -- Ned Scott 08:47, 29 July 2006 (UTC)[reply

]

I'm going to add the same proposal below, without the question of "current events" tags, since that part has been the most misunderstood. - Jc37 17:45, 13 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

There seem to be several reasons for spoilers. The 3 main ones seem to be:

• "solution" based (magic tricks, and mysteries)
• "Soap-opera" based (ongoing plot), such as comic books and television series, or even how a game, film, or book progressed the plot to build toward an ending.
• And "ending" based, such as how a game, a film, or a book ended (or even how an event within a subsection ended, depending on the situation).

For simplicity, we'll call these "events".

One issue is that some parts of the world receive the information (in publication/broadcast/etc.) before others. In addition, the "Soap-opera" based events often release solicitation information, or other advertisements.

So given all of this:

• "Current" Events:

1. There is no reason that Wikipedia should attempt to keep track of who has or hasn't experienced the event in question.
2. The unique situation of wikipedia being able to show "current" information, rather than as one that is published in a "closed form", means that wikipedia may have "current" content that a "closed" encyclopedia might not.
3. Therefore, wikipedia should have some way to make it clear to the reader what is a "current event".
4. A current event is ongoing by nature.

• Spoiler tags:

1. WP already has Template:Magic-spoiler (Though it should be renamed Template:Spoiler-magic for consistancy of naming.)
2. WP already has
   Video games. (Perhaps should be renamed Template:Spoiler-solution
   for consistancy of naming.)
3. Template:Spoiler-ongoing - Used for ongoing plots involving the setting, characters, situations, etc. (such as in comic books and television series). Should use the format of Template:Spoiler-about.
4. Template:Spoiler-ending - Used for the final "end" of a series, a film, a book, or even a subsection (such as the details of the death of a character within a film). Should use the format of Template:Spoiler-about.
5. Template:Spoiler-solicitation - Use includes any information gleaned from advertising or promotions.
6. Use of the generic templates Template:Spoiler, Template:Spoiler-about, and Template:Spoiler-blank, should be kept to an absolute minimum.
7. Template:Spoiler-other - As a combinative spoiler warning, it should be removed, since it does not differentiate between types. (Alternately, it could be potentially re-worked to include such differentiation.)

Support (Categorize spoilers more clearly (Mark II))

Oppose (Categorize spoilers more clearly (Mark II))

Comment (Categorize spoilers more clearly (Mark II))

Oh, are we still voting? Well, I'm still not sure about this proposal. I mean, if we use the example of a video game, I'm not sure that any of the above would be sufficient. You make a distinction between solutions (like: doing such-and-such kills the end boss) and plot details (as in: in the end cutscene such-and-such happens). Would games therefore need 2 warnings? RobbieG 09:56, 14 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure what this is suggesting, as spoilers aren't necessarily dependent on when they occur. I'm not even sure what these categories are supposed to help us do. -- Ned Scott 10:02, 14 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'm still wondering why we haven't closed the RfC. We moved into the guideline page over two weeks ago and this thing is more active than that one. I think we've pretty much concluded that this will remain a case-by-case thing anyway. Unless someone comes along with something brilliant and poignant on many levels. Ryu Kaze 01:42, 16 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• Spoiler tags should by default be set to on in the CSS.
• For pages which are primarily spoilers (IE: A dedicated page to an episode of a tv series) spoiler tags should not be used as it is generally intended for that page to be primarily composed of plot details which can be considerd spoilers.
• For lists (IE: A television episode list which summarises and contains more then one episode) spoiler tags should be used.
• The rewording of {{spoiler}} from "Plot and/or ending details follow." to "This article or section contains spoilers including plot and/or ending details.".
• A tutorial on how to turn off spoiler tags via CSS on the spoiler page (linked via the spoiler tag)
• Only {{spoiler}} should be utilized, all others should be removed and forwaded to spoiler for cohesion.

I believe that the above proposal is fair. If you have any points you may wish to add comment below.

Support (MatthewFenton's proposal)

1. As the proposer i support this. Matthew Fenton (contribs) 09:26, 31 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose (MatthewFenton's proposal)

1. jwanders^Talk 00:52, 1 August 2006 (UTC): Even after reading the above discussion, I disagree that the arguements against a spoiler tag outweigh its benifit, even on a page where one should expect spoilers.[reply]
   • Sacrifices had to be made in order to make the proposal fair. Matthew Fenton (contribs) 00:56, 1 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
2. I see the value in varaible message spoiler tags, and tags should be used where ever needed. -- Ned Scott 03:57, 1 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
3. I thought we'd already moved on to guidelines? plange 06:15, 1 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

   Well, we haven't really "moved on", rather, guideline discussion is happening in parallel to the RfC. The results of the guideline discussion will be brought back here to see if they address any additional anti-tag concerns. Although Matthew should have probably made his suggestions there than here. -- Ned Scott 06:20, 1 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

4. Per jwanders. RobbieG 18:51, 1 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Comment (MatthewFenton's proposal)

Individual user statements

To help prevent discussion from looping through repeated comments, this section allows editors to summarize their overall views on the issues above. Editors may revise their statements provided they link to previous versions (please use diff links from the edit history) of their statements so as to avoid confusion.

When offering comments on this matter, please place a header immediately below with your username as its title. Then offer your views of the issues presented. If you wish, indicate which proposed solution(s) you would support (you may be neutral or present your own proposal), as well as which you would be most in favor of (please be specific in this regard), as well as any potential pros or cons that you feel may follow as a result of recognizing one solution or another. If you are in support of a proposal mentioned above, please add your name to its list of supporters. Again, you may support more than one proposal, but please indicate preference.

• Few of the "against" arguments hold up under greater scrutiny. As spoiler tags have been widely used, it's safe to assume that the content disclaimer and section headers are not enough. I don't see how a spoiler tag at the start of a plot summary violates NPOV, nor is it censorship, as the information still exists. With that said, a "spoiler" is not really subjective, but the use of the tag may be, which is an education issue, not one that should be dealt with via abandonment.
• The only argument I can see making sense is the one about it appearing unprofessional and/or unencyclopedic, but we're not your typical encyclopedia. In a situation where we're linked to as references all over the web, and easily accessable, it becomes a courtesy issue, since it's not an issue otherwise.
• In other words, leave it to article consensus, and leave the guideline as is. If it ain't broke... --badlydrawnjeff talk 12:58, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• When the usual queation asked is why does wikipedia contain spoilers - why are we even debating the careful use of "spoiler tags" to mark where such spoilers are to avoid reading that section of an article. I have seen, congent debate for hiving all spoilers off to completely separate (and related) articles. This not a real option and neither was that. At least in most instances. :: Kevinalewis : ^{(Talk Page)}/_(Desk) 14:41, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

In my time with encyclopedias and my capacity as an editor on wikipedia, I would really say that considering any information with the intent of informative intent as a "spoiler" is quite misleading and utterly destroys the purpose of an encyclopedia. Put simply, an encyclopedia is meant to distribute knowledge and all other quibbles and the like derived from the social crowd are irrelevant. As editors of wikipedia, this our duty as volunteers on the project. The encyclopedia comes first. Always. When an editor or editors presume outside needs of a networking group deserve the attention at the integrity of the encyclopedia there is a serious problem.

On earlier discussions, it has been established the spoiler tag was intended as a cooup-out for people who came to wikipedia for entirely the incorrect reasons, such as the false view of a review site, that of a online catalog and dumping ground of information from all veins of subjects. This is entirely the wrong view we wish to give wikipedia. And I've no idea why we should encourage those kinds of people in the construction of an encyclopedia. Wikipedia is still an encyclopedia, first and foremost. The unique premise of wikipedia as an online source of information is only in effect to permit the variable tools we utilize to improve the quality and wide range of content for encycloepdia. In that wikipedia is a new and different venue of sharing this knowledge is true, but our expanded content does not permit the we neglect what an encyclopedia is and how it treats information. An encyclopedia treats all of its information on equivilent standing as to verify its proffessional and neutral take to give each individual subject equal care. The goal of wikipedia is not to re-invent the spirit of the encyclopedia, but to expand, elaborate and provide complete inclusion on all sources of knowledge. As such, a video game such as

Many editors in support of the template raise functionally sensible arguments that are very appropriate - in an website that did not thrive upon knowledge and build upon elaboration such as plot details, specifics and other related data in the course of it being an encyclopedia. However, some editors became sidetracked; such falsely believed the social ideals derived from external websites were appropriate for the encyclopedia. As such the main arguments include "People like it", "some people think its useful for looking up data not relevant to an encyclopedia" and my favorite: "They don't hurt anything". Had this been an acceptable view such unencyclopediac content would not be disposed of at AFD and DRV (Although I must concced those processes are slightly broken at the current time).

I'm sorry, but that's the most mindbogglingly stupid thing I've ever seen on Wikipedia.

Apparently, a "spoiler" is a common term constructed in internet conversation and forums, designed to warn others of inappropriate introductions of story content in non-relevant discussions. Those websites are nowhere near the realm of an encyclopedia and do not document themselves as such. It would be silly to warn to someone whom has come to partake of knowledge at the outset, and furthurmore catering to those who continue to make a point of flaunting their wish to stay ignorant. Ignorance is a foriegn term to encyclopedias, great institutions and other great sources of knowledge. Its one that shouldn't even be considered, much less endorsed. Apparently, somewhere along the line editors percieved wikipedia's unique premise as a carte blanche for the introduction of this ideal and declared it as "essential to the workings of an encyclopedia". Go figure.

Spoiler tags are paticularly irrelevant to the basic tools provided to wikipedia editors and readers; the headers and Table of Contents in paticular make it entirely redundant. In addition, many reports have established the tag as placed directly below the header "Plot" or above the TOC. Um, the header doesn't accomplish that how...? Soem might suggest that elaborates upon the content contained, but I utterly refute that claim on the basis people have common sense and people see stuff - If the header says "Plot" than the spoiler tag clarifies nothings. If the prose in question is several pharagraphs in length than of course there will likely be substantial elaboration. Everyone knows how to look at things. Everyone knows an encyclopedia is comprehensive. To presume a reader has no knowledge of this and present the template as a "courtesy" is an utter lie. Stupid people don't read encyclopedias. And by its nature, wikipedia is very simplistic in nature concerning navigation, especially in the article namespace.

This is an entirely friviolus template, concieved on imaginary conceptions outside the well-being of the encyclopedia itself. They incite confusion, including the false interpretation about what Wikipedia is for (many editors have described it as helpful for those coming to look up information for game reviews and the like; that's not what this site was intended for); they look unprofessional and they trod upon article format, paticulary in thumb ing images. And they are extremely subjective. You cannot define what is and what is not a "spoiler". For example, the

If spoiler tags needn't be removed for the sake of an encyclopedia than I suggest we remove wikipedia's status as an encyclopedia itself. This hasn't any purpose in the course of a goal to build a great encyclopedia. -Randall Brackett 16:23, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• The majority of oppose arguments do not focus on the value of the encyclopedia to the readers, except for the damage to our tone. I propose we change the template to have the word "major" or "substantial" in the template (Substantial plot and/or ending...) and use it as infrequently as possible. The template is damatically overused, currently.(CF - Book of Esther (removed by me) Bubble_Bobble (also removed by me)) and scores of others. Hipocrite - «Talk» 16:43, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • I add as a post-script, however, that if it becomes impossible to successfuly limit the use of spoiler tags due to editors hastly reverting over the most minor change in position, it will be necessary to delete them entirely. Hipocrite - «Talk» 14:08, 25 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Basically, my reasoning for — at the very least — seeing spoiler tags taken off the default version of the site (though I'd prefer to see them deleted) is that they are based in individual editors' points of view concerning what may or may not be appropriate for readers to see. This judgement is then passed on to the readers in an attempt to influence them not to learn something specifically selected by the editor.

Our NPOV and no censorship policies were created for the purpose of keeping editors' opinions out of the articles. They're not supposed to be trying to influence which information the readers do or do not read, or how they absorb it. All information here that has met the criteria for inclusion is supposed to be treated the same. None of it is supposed to be given a banner that says "This might ruin your ability to enjoy a story," and I honestly don't care if it does ruin someone's ability to enjoy a story. We're not here to put courtesies before principles. As our very first policy says, "Wikipedia is an encyclopedia. Its goals go no further, and material that does not fit this goal must be moved to another Wikimedia project or removed altogether". Wikipedia's founded on encyclopedic principles. If it's going to be an encyclopedia, it's going to have to conform to these principles, and that means spoiler tags (a POV editor-based judgement intended to present specifically-targeted information in a biased light) should not be here. If they're here, then this is a glamorized fansite, and not an encyclopedia.

The bottom line is this: there's a certain integrity involved in being an encyclopedia, and the hypocrisy imposed by allowing spoiler tags to be present undermines that. If they're going to be here, Wikipedia's not an encyclopedia and shouldn't claim to be one. If my fellow editors do not have enough concern for the principles and integrity of what we're here to do to ensure that they are upheld, then I will personally think that we should push to see the claim that Wikipedia's an encyclopedia removed. If it's going to be a fansite, it shouldn't be masquerading as a professional, unbiased, comprehensive body that is serious about knowledge. If it's going to babysit the notion that knowledge is harmful and that shielding people from information is okay in a setting that's supposed to be impartial, then it should not be claiming the dignified title of "encyclopedia". Wikipedia either is an encyclopedia or it isn't. If it isn't one, then it shouldn't be claiming to be one. Pretty simple.

Note to Jimbo Wales and the Board: I understand that the idea behind the project is pretty much to let it govern itself. I understand that you guys hope for editors to agree in the best interests of the encyclopedia. I understand that you don't want to interfere. But is this just an experiment to find out if the concept can work? That strangers from all over the world can actually agree and make an encyclopedia? Or is it an attempt to make sure that the mission is fulfilled? I know you guys don't want to interfere in things like this, but if you want this to be an encyclopedia, one would think you'd make sure that it is one when guys like Randall and I can't, when our authority is non-existent or too limited. As editors here, all of us, even those I disagree with, should be working to make this place an encyclopedia. We should never have been able to even argue over this matter. Someone should have stepped in to make sure that the principles outlined were upheld if this place is truly to be an encyclopedia. Sometimes you can't just let the system work when the system is rigged to undermine itself. Sometimes you have to straighten it out and make sure it works.

Now, I'm not blaming you guys, because I understand why you don't like to make decisions for us and that you probably have more pressing matters on a regular basis, but I think that — just as the editors of an encyclopedia must put the princicples of an encyclopedia before courtesies — that the system we all hoped would work in the creation of this encyclopedia must sometimes be put on the backburner for the integrity of the mission itself. The purpose must come before the practice. Ryu Kaze 17:17, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I think one of the things we've got to work out is that perhaps we're going to have to be clear that there's no consensus for the use of spoiler templates, but that we're going to have to offer guidance on how they should be used if there is consensus within a given article to use them. I think it might be an idea to look at offering an additional template, rather broader in scope to be placed at the top of an article, for articles where agreement is hard to reach. Hiding Talk 17:23, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I support the use of warning people about spoilers. To anyone who believes we should remove the spoiler warnings, how about once we know the secret to the next Harry Potter book (or whatever spoiler), let's put the spoiler at the top of the article (with no warning) and feature that article on the front of wikipedia so everyone gets spoiled by it? Would anyone really be okay with it?

Well there is a comprimise where the spoiler tag also spoils the plot. Harry potter example (contains spoiler). I'm using this as an example of why wikipedia's current spoiler tags are good.

What are you talking about...? When people come to wikipedia on a fiction-driven story such as Harry Potter, they expect to read upon the plot. The very Plot itself is integral to the HP articles as its the book's selling point. -Randall Brackett 13:33, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Please discuss these things in the above sections or in the general discussion below. Comments on user statements should be more like "How would you feel about this?" or "can you give an example of what you are talking about". -- Ned Scott 23:03, 19 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I have long been a proponent of spoiler tags. Apologize that I have not been involved in the most recent discussions, as I've had some time constraints to my time on Wikipedia, but I have been following it from afar, and I'd like to thank all parties involved for their dedication towards trying to find a solution and consensus.

The bottomline for me is, and always has been, that spoiler tags are beneficial to readers. Perhaps not beneficial to all readers, but there is certainly a large chunk of Wikipedia readers who find spoiler tags helpful and informative. I myself have benefited from them in my casual reading of the encyclopedia. While I certainly understand the arguments against them, particularly from writers who feel constrained working around them constantly, we have to remember that this encyclopedia should be optimized for readers moreso than for writers. Yes, we should strive to be professional, but part of being the best encyclopedia we can be is being the most reader friendly that we can be. EWS23 (Leave me a message!) 20:22, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I believe people supporting spoiler warnings because they might be "useful" are missing the point. There are tons of things we could add to articles that can be seen as useful, but we aren't adding them because we are writing

I am not just an editor of this encyclopedia; I am also a reader. As a reader, I find spoiler warnings to be useful. I recognize that there is a legitimate argument to be made that usefulness is not our primary goal. However, I reject the premise that creating an encyclopedia (where "encyclopedia" is defined narrowly as conforming to certain strict rules) is more important than reader courtesy. An encyclopedia is, inherently, a courtesy to the reader. Without readers, the encyclopedia is only so much data. First and foremost, the encyclopedia must be useful and helpful to the reader. Every single one of our guidelines and policies are pursuant to that, in some way.

Normally, I would be tempted to agree that a section labeled "Plot" or something similar should serve as sufficient warning for spoilers. However, it is extremely common for plot summaries in other media to go out of their way to avoid revealing spoliers. This is particularly true for just-released fiction, something which print encyclopedias simply cannot cover. As an encyclopedia which is quickly updated with the most current information on fictional works, some of which are yet unreleased, we are in a unique position among encyclopedias. As such, we must take that into account when we are determining how to apply our primary goal (that is, being useful to the reader).

-- Powers 02:12, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

People need to stop trying to see Wikipedia as a clone of Brittanica or other classic encyclopedias of years gone by. This is a totally different animal and the rules are different. Articles can be written within minutes of an event or an announcement, and as a result there will be copious amounts of material written on films, TV shows, books, etc. which contain spoilers. Just because Alice in Wonderland is a classic that's been around for 100 years doesn't mean that everyone knows how it ends. I never found out until I took it in university. Now, I will agree that spoiler tags are often misused; not everything mentioned regarding a book or film or TV show is a spoiler. But given the tendency for editors (and I'm one of them) to post detailed synopses, I think spoiler tags are a necessary evil (for lack of a better phrase; I don't consider them evil at all). The only alternative would be to establish a Policy (not a Guideline) banning the presence of detailed synopses in articles. However that's a debate for another forum. And the only way to make Wikipedia exactly the same as Brittanica is to ban amateurs like, well, 99.9999% of people who contribute to this site. 23skidoo 03:01, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• I disagree with the assumption that spoiler warnings "don't hurt anything". Whether the costs outweigh the benefits is debatable, but I do think it's obvious they have some effect on article organization. Often, I think the spoliers-begin-here-spoilers-end-here format is harmful, because it encourages editors to lump anything that could be considered a spoiler together in a single section rather than primarilly basing such decisicions on logical organization and article flow. In some cases, it may even lead to good, useful information being left out in attempts to avoid the use of an excessive number of tags. At best, it's still one more thing to worry about which may prove a distraction from our core encyclopedic purpose.

• If we do wind up deciding to use spoiler tags, we need to hold a discussion about what contitutes a spoiler. I don't think erring on the side of caution is an acceptable substitute. Right now, in many articles, all discussion of plot is treated like a spoiler. I believe that most people would agree that basic premise information the likes of which would be found in an advertisement for a fictional work does not really "spoil" a story. Similarly, the revealing endings of certain stories which are extremely well known (folklore, for example) seems non-controversial. If we use these tags, we should aim to adopt the least invasive usage-guidelines possible.

• I know this seems like a stupid question, but are spoiler-warnings really all that useful, anyway? I know a lot of editors seem to think so, but I also know if I were reading an article on, for example, a novel I was reading, if a quick glance revealed a lengthy "plot" section, I would assume the article containing plot details, and not read it until I wanted to know about those things. I wouldn't consider that a hardship, particularly. Besides, are we really doing our readers a service by using these tags which suggest that Wikipedia is spoiler-safe? Wikipedia is freely editable -- anyone can add anything with or without a warning tag. Considering this, I don't think it's unreasonable to ask that readers who are highly allergic to spoilers exercize the same care they would reading reviews, looking at jacket covers, or just chatting with friends who have already seen a movie they intend to see. -- Lee Bailey^(talk) 05:43, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I am completely opposed to the deletion of spoiler warnings. I maintain that they are neither biased nor censorship, and therefore I see no reason to get rid of them. However, many people disagree with this, so I'm going to present my complete argument below.

Spoiler warnings need not be biased

Sounds like an oxymoron, doesn't it? But it's true, providing we do away with the actual term "spoiler warning" and replace it with something more neutral. Why? Well, plot details invaribly do follow such warnings. All we need to do is to make a definition of "spoiler" that is universally accepted. For example, if we say that all plot details are spoilers, or all plot details not printed on the cover of a story/movie/game.

Where spoiler warnings are biased

• When we discriminate between which spoilers need to be labelled. That would be a direct violation of the NPOV policy. For example, I have never seen
  King Richard II? Because I haven't. I have no idea what happens. A possibly even more extreme example would be The Little Engine That Could
  . A children's classic? I'd never even heard of it until somebody listed it as an example of stupid spoiler warnings. I don't know what happens in the story, and frankly I don't care, but it is spoilable, and therefore the most objective thing to do is to include a spoiler warning.

There. That's my argument. I have got more I could say, but for now I think I've gone on long enough. If you'd like me to clarify my position on something, I'd be happy to, so just ask. Thanks for reading. RobbieG 11:14, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Of course it's "POV". That's his point. I say, if someone wants to redesign it, let's discuss it. It can be made to be more aesthetically pleasing. Nightscream 19:24, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I would have no objection to someone redesigning the template to make it look neater. In fact, I'd welcome it. I do think that right now we have more important concerns, however. RobbieG 21:16, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I just want to add an observation to this whole thing; Wikipedia articles are often top-3 Google hits, and almost always top-10. 20 years ago, someone who went to Britannica to read about Hamlet expected a spoiler, and if they didn't, it was their own problem for spoiling it for themselves. Many people click on a high-ranking Google hit looking for casual information.

We live in the Internet age, where information can appear much more rapidly than it ever could before. People here are talking about how it's tough if Citizen Kane or Casablanca are spoiled for some people. What if a major new release such as the latest Pirates of the Carribean movie is spoiled for a guy doing a Google search for a trailer, 3 days before the movie is released, by a Wiki editor who watched a bootleg video they found on BitTorrent?

I also see "censorship" thrown around. Censorship is the omission of information, not a qualification about the information about to be read. Removal of spoiler tags will lead people towards omission rather than qualified inclusion, and that's censorship.

Spoilers are not a recent internet fad, although the term may be relatively recent. Film critics 65 years ago would have been fired if they told their reading audience what happened at the end of Casablanca. Wiki editors today have the same responsibility to respect the feelings of their readers.

I remember someone posting the identity of the character who dies in the most recent Harry Potter novel minutes after the book's release, as they had flipped to the last few pages to get the scoop. A casual Harry Potter fan reading that page looking for a release date coming across such a major plot point with no warning would be justifiably furious, and this is where we do the project wrong. If spoiler warnings were removed wholesale for some vague notion about their "encyclopedianess", or a POV notion about their aesthetic, people would run into situations like this all the time - and many of them would never click a Wiki link again, nor think of contributing. It would just make them dislike the whole project. Who benefits from that? - dharmabum 09:35, 19 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This'll be short for now, but gve it some thought anyway: the spirit of NPOV is for fairness and reliability for readers, right? How many readers come across a spoiler warning and think to themselves "WTF, since when does Wikipedia judge what is or isn't a spoiler, or what is or isn't good or bad about reading a spoiler?! That's bias!" A reader who goes to

The key issue here is of style. Some spoiler tags have been deleted from plot summaries in articles with the rationale that it's obvious that the plot section will contain spoilers. In effect, this just gives reason to orphan the spoiler template and further the anti-spoiler warning cause. The fact that the user should expect that the plot section will contain spoilers doesn't really hold water. The style of how plots are divulged varies widely between articles. While Leroy & Stitch spoils the whole film, the article on Wet Hot American Summer doesn't spoil much of anything. Going from two articles like these that vary wildly in how they divulge the plot, a user doesn't know what to expect in terms of how much of the film will be spoiled. In this respect, a spoiler tag would be useful.

I agree with the point that "Choosing to add the tag or not is similar to other decisions in the editorial process", but that's about the only point on either side that I agree with. I don't see the harm in including them, as they are quite useful for some users and aren't truly censorship. It's a more clear decision about what a user would consider to be a spoiler is over what a user might find objectionable. That having been said, I don't Wikipedia would be any worse off without them either. Users would eventually learn that Wikipedia freely displays spoilers and would be more judicious in reading articles if they need to do so.

There's a lot of problems with Wikipedia that might stop it from being viewed as a professionally done encyclopedia. A few of them are the inclusion of articles on topics that would not appeal to a general audience (articles on web site forums come to mind), imbalances on article length, bias towards certain topics and substandard prose. In the end, there are things that are a lot more unprofessional and unencyclopedic on Wikipedia than spoiler warnings. --Jtalledo (talk) 19:36, 21 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I have decided to remain neutral on this particular issue. Under the circumstances, my opinions are irrelivent because I do not want to get involved in such a heated debate that has very little return for me as an editor. In other words: I don't really care either way. While I think there should always be a compromise, is the yield really worth the effort for any party involved? Mediation, professionalism, and so on are key to Wikipedia; however, in this case, I feel that there are more pressing matters to work on, such as editing and content policy or guideline disputes. Let's prioritize.

Swimming against the tide, I'll try to keep this brief. Delete the tings, or at the very least deprecate their use. If retained, made a guideline, and applied consistently and thoroughly (as a guideline should be), we would end up with spoiler warnings on the

I find it extrenley silly that those that oppose spoiler tags seem to believe this is a censorship or that it violates NPOV, if some one would care to elaborate?

• • It would be censorship if the content was blanked/hidden or made difficult to see.
  • It also does not violate NPOV as in all tags i have seen no point of view is expressed, saying spoilers follow can not be classed as POV as it is truth if it has the potentioal to spoil a storyline.

I am extremley disgusted that some users may wish to remove spoiler tags as they not only aid articles but provide integrity to the project (Wikipedia) Matthew Fenton (contribs) 11:45, 29 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

While I try to steer clear of highly controversial issues, this one hit me in the face. I came across this while carring out

• I object to the structure of this RfC on the grounds that the top three sections are all biased against use of the spoiler tags. This is giving the new reader a very unbalanced view of the topic. Johntex\^talk 17:24, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• • That's entirely the point. Those are the issues being addressed, and since the issues are inherently biased toward the spoiler tags, their presentation will be. That's why I made sure to add "This claim holds that" at the beginning of each, so it's clear that these are the sentiments that led to this discussion. The reasoning for the claims is hopefully what will help someone make their decision, rather than the claims themselves. Anyway, if everyone thought that spoiler tags were okay or everybody thought they were garbage, we wouldn't be having this discussion. Ryu Kaze 17:27, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • But the point is that some people think they are OK and should be left as is, and none of the starter-arguments reflect that view. They all start with the premise that something is wrong and change is needed. That is biased. Johntex\^talk 17:37, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
      • Well, obviously some people think they are okay. The status quo is that they are here right now. If the issues didn't involve the belief that something is wrong, there wouldn't be issues for us to be discussing anyway, right? Heck, the fact that we're calling them "issues" denotes a belief that something is wrong. Ryu Kaze 17:45, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The very issue and implementation of the templates is biased in and of itself. The long-time stance of spoiler tags and the vast and uncontrolled introdution aross articles is a a very unbalanced view of the topic. -Randall Brackett 17:49, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

But that's just your opinion. If you want to get comments from other people, then you shouldn't start out by poisoning the well with multiple pages of complaints about the current system. There is no conclusion currently that anything is wrong with these templates. Johntex\^talk 17:56, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• John, I doubt anyone would object if you wrote up a section on Spoiler warnings may be expected by readers. I certainly wouldn't, and I think it's an issue that may require discussion. Hiding Talk 18:05, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • No one would object, no. I'd think it wouldn't make much sense since by placing it up there as an issue you'd be saying there was something wrong with people expecting that, but if you want to do it, feel free. Again, the fact that these are the issues means that there's a belief that something is wrong and those details up there are identifying what is believed to be wrong. Ryu Kaze 18:10, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Um, can't follow your reasoning here. Presenting arguments at an RFC is supposed to be done in a neutral manner, there shouldn't be a presupposition that all issues inherently imply a flaw. Could you clarify your reasoning for me. You seem to be presenting a bias as to what this RFC is for. Hiding Talk 18:16, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
      • Sorry. I'm saying that in light of the status quo (spoiler tags present), an issue with that implies the belief that something's wrong with it. It probably has to do with what you're using as your point of reference, I guess. If your point of reference is the status quo in this case (the one I assumed we were going by, but if I'm wrong, I'm wrong), an issue is that something's to be changed about it. After all, if we thought the status quo was fine, it wouldn't be the point of reference for an issue, right?
      • Anyway, use whatever point of reference you want and present whatever you'd like at the top, John. If you want to add something else to the issues, feel free, but given that the argument of something like "Spoiler warnings may be expected by readers" is more of a counterpoint to the other issues, it would make more sense to put it there. It would also keep things organized, hopefully. But, again, do what you wish. No one will object. Ryu Kaze 18:25, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
        • I would think the RFC starts from the premise that the nature and usage of spoiler tags is in dispute, and allow arguments to be presented from any point of view within that framework. That's presenting an issue from a neutral stance. The central issue is that the nature and usage of spoiler tags is disputed, there is currently no status quo, and it is arguable what the status quo is. Hiding Talk 18:32, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
          • Basically, the status quo was dismantled once RfC began and we're trying to establish what it is then? Fair enough. Ryu Kaze 18:34, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
            • Well, the status quo was dismantled when the disputed tag was placed on
              Wikipedia:Spoiler warning, but yes, that's the broad point, we're here trying to work out where the consensus lies, and all voices should be heard as equals for the community to decide. Hiding Talk 18:42, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply
              ]
              • Makes sense to me. Ryu Kaze 18:45, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

There seems to be some consensus for avoiing the word spoiler in any warning. Perhaps instead we should amend the template, or create an alternative to read Plot details follow which may spoil enjoyment of the work. Any thoughts? Hiding Talk 18:48, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The meaning in "Spoiler warning: plot and/or ending details follow" and "Plot details follow which may spoil enjoyment of the work" is exactly the same. The new one's only more straightforward in its presumptuousness. Ryu Kaze 18:53, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

What about it is presumptuous? Hiding Talk 19:09, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The notion that knowing plot details in advance spoils/ruins a work of fiction. It's based on the editor's POV. That's been one of the main issues at stake here. And this one's even more obviously a warning, really, as it spells out what "spoilers" means. Ryu Kaze 19:18, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

So then it's equally presumptuous that knowing plot details in advance would not spoil/ruin a work of fiction, and is equally based on the editor's POV. Best if we end this circular argument here and work out where the consensus lies. Hiding Talk 19:31, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

How about

Look good? Hipocrite - «Talk» 18:57, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• Personally, I find the grey bars too intrusive. Hiding Talk 19:08, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
• Thanks Hipocrite for the suggestion. I think it is "not bad", but I like the existing one better. Johntex\^talk 19:55, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I think Hipocrite's suggestion looks pretty good, I'd support it. -- Ned Scott 21:48, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Given that it links to the spoiler warning page, it's just another example of the same thing with a different face. Same opinion as before, consequently. Ryu Kaze 21:58, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't say it wasn't, it's just "toned down". Incase you haven't noticed by now, I'm for the inclusions of these tags, so I'm not sure why you are pointing that out to me. -- Ned Scott 22:16, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I wasn't. I had just been responding to some things you said previously a few minutes earlier, in which I used colons to space my text beneath yours. As such, I did so when I got down here instead of thinking to hit the asterik instead. Just like you did when offering your input to Hipocrite, apparently. Ryu Kaze 22:32, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Guy6s, perhaps you'd prefer to discuss this issue on your individual talk pages rather than bloat this section overly. Hiding Talk 22:29, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I was addressing Hipocrite, not Ned. Ryu Kaze 22:32, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The phrase "may spoil enjoyment of the work" is terribly POV. Pass. Hypocrite's version is much better but to be honest the current version is fine. The term "spoiler" has joined the words "blog" and "ipod" in the lexicon of the year 2006. Get used to it is what I suggest. 23skidoo 03:05, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, "spoiler" is an older word that is found, in this meaning/sense, in paper dictionaries as early as 1992(?). In any case, it's older than "blog" and "ipod", even if those are SO last year. :-) --GunnarRene 04:27, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed, and when I think about it, we don't want people to start tagging all plot details, just ones that are considered spoilers. hmmm.. -- Ned Scott 05:53, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I remember the subject header "NO SPOILERS PLEASE" from the Prodigy online service in 1991-1992. The whole point of the thing is that some readers want to find out about some aspects of a fictional work, while avoiding details the readers themselves feel might spoil their enjoyment. A spoiler notice accommodates people with that preference, and does not attempt to dissuade others from reading the material. Taking the words "spoiler" and "warning" out of the notice probably makes this even more true. As for overuse, I agree that this is a problem. I've seen them on so many innocuous plot descriptions that I thought I was "supposed to" include them pretty much all the time. I think from now on I'll use them sparingly - but if someone wants to add one, I probably won't object. Karen 06:11, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

May contain nuts

This could go across all fictional articles. It's similar to the may contain nuts approach on food labels. Hiding Talk 11:26, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I like it, but I'd prefer it if it could go at the top of sections rather than articles. That would be more flexible and less likely to deter readers, but it wouldn't disrupt the flow of text in the way that the current template sometimes does. RobbieG 12:24, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

An adaptation for sections:

This would be more specific, but still refrain from attempting to define what actually is a spoiler, and so could be used for all article sections to which it applies. Hiding Talk 12:27, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I like these two templates, and I am tempted to use them anyway, as it seems there is precious little consensus around here. For the record, I refuse to use any template that mangles the English language by using the "and/or" phrase. Carcharoth 13:35, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I truly dislike the "post it everywhere" approach. Unless the template is only used rarely, it is better used in the general disclaimer. Hipocrite - «Talk» 14:59, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Agree with Hipocrite. -Randall Brackett 15:07, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I like them. Randall Brackett, I'm surprised, since you're so worried about not infringing the NPOV policy, that you are so willing to discriminate between which plot details are spoilers and which aren't. RobbieG 15:14, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I concured with Hipocrite's comment, not the implementation of templates. -Randall Brackett 15:19, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I think to hone in on what Randall believes, and correct me if I'm wrong, that he wants the template gone completly, and regardless, it's massivly overused. I want the template to stay, but think it is massivly overused. The crossover you see is that we both think it's massivly overused - a point that I think has wide agreement. Hipocrite - «Talk» 15:40, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

In my view, "dicusses a fictional work" is superfluous in section headings because plot only apperas in fictional works. --GunnarRene 15:37, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

There might be another type of spoiler: Taped "reality" and game shows on TV, where information is leaked by contestants or audience. But that only lasts untill the episode has aired, while fiction spoilers last longer (or forever). I think we'll stick with spoilers on fiction only.--GunnarRene 13:19, 19 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry Randall Brackett, I guess I got the wrong end of the stick there. I feel inclined to agree with GunnarRene, except that sometimes plot details are given for a work that is not the subject of the article itself. Then the template could read:

Any good? RobbieG 15:47, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see how the organization of using appropriate headers doesn't get the job done. I think the template is incredibly lazy and encourages users to not make good arrangement in articles as should normally be done.

We should discuss upon making our MOS style guidelines for organization stronger, not using a silly template to sugar coat stuff. -Randall Brackett 15:52, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, but that's pretty restrictive. In fact, I'd go as far as to call it censorship. This template avoids that. RobbieG 15:57, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree. I've no idea how its censorship to make our standards of construction higher. -Randall Brackett 16:00, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It's censorship to say "You can't write that there, it's got plot details, put it in the plot section of the relevant article" when plot information can often be notable outside of such sections. For example, a certain Internet meme gives away the plot of Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince, but information about the said meme is not appropriate for the plot section of the Harry Potter 6 article. To exclude that information on those grounds is censorship. RobbieG 16:06, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

You're using a strawman argument. I didn't even raise that point. No-one has raised that point against spoiler tags, looking about the rfc. -Randall Brackett 16:09, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry. I must have misunderstood your comment. Please assume good faith, and please don't call my argument a strawman, it isn't supposed to be. It was just a mistake, for which I'm genuinely sorry. I must have just grasped the wrong end of the stick again. Could you please explain to me what you are actually suggesting? Thanks, RobbieG 16:14, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

In the previous discussion, it was suggested that plot details should be kept inside a "Plot details" or "Plot" section. So that is not a strawman. Perhaps he was referring to something else?--GunnarRene 16:16, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'm merely saying we remove spoiler tags and focus on improving the organization, quality and prose of the encyclopedia itself, rather than that of worrying how a random passerby might die from learning something new. I also think its redundant to an appropriate header. -Randall Brackett 16:17, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• I don't think this proposal states that all sections containing plot have to be labelled "plot details", but that they should be headed with terms that identify their nature, so in the internet meme and Harry Potter example, a header stating "The crucial plot detail revealed" could be thought to be enough. What's being asked for with this suggestion is that where it's possible to avoid using the template through well written headers, let's do so. I don't think a section in Hansel and Gretel titled "Summation of the story" needs spoiler templates, does it? Let's try and work out guidance which best suits the nature of the text rather than one size fits all. Hiding Talk 13:26, 19 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Obviously, if the template read "This section may contain plot details", it would be redundant under a heading such as "Story", "Plot summary", etc. But it would be useful in other situations, like the Harry Potter example. RobbieG 07:36, 20 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This comment is being made a lot to oppose the case by case argument, and could people just clarify what it means. Should a spoiler template be inserted in every sdingle article? Because I can't see what it means if it doesn't, and yet I can't believe it means use them in every single article. So could people outline what they mean, as their opposition to the point isn't clear. Should the article on the United States have a spoiler template? I know this seems like I'm being facile, but I'm not. We need to get a good idea of what people think constitutes a spoiler, so that we can work out what we all agree is definitely a plot detail that needs a template. Hiding Talk 11:10, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Perhpas not facile, but perhaps facetious? I'm not sure what they mean. I think it means one of two things: 1: Allways include plot/ending details, or 2: Allways enclose plot details in spoiler tags. The only non-fiction content that I know some people don't want to have "spoiled" are sports events that they record for watching a few hours later, but these people make a concious effort not to watch/read news untill they've watched it. See also Spoiler (media). --GunnarRene 12:24, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

My point is that if we are hoping to build a consensus here we need to explain our opinions, and yes, it would be nice to know which of your two ideas they mean. That I conveyed it with humour is surely a good thing. Hiding Talk 12:31, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Searching the text here, I see thay say "Always have the tags", which means 2 above, instead of re-starting the discussion on a case-by-case basis. That wasn't so hard to understand. --GunnarRene 12:36, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, but I'd like that clarified by people making such comments. I notice your own vote in that section seems to argue for case by case and yet opposes it, so I'm getting rather confused tracking what people mean. I apologise if you find my confusion frustrating, I'm not going out of my way to be difficult here, I'm simply trying to engage people in discussion to build consensus. Hiding Talk 12:58, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The comment means that on every article where plot details are disclosed, sploier tags are necisary. Tobyk777 22:49, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

While there are a lots of eyeballs looking this way, I'll bring up a personal bugbear of mine. I hate the use of the phrase "and/or" in the template. It is jarring and unprofessional. The Wikipedia manual of style says not to use such and/or constructions in the articles (see

Very good question. I suggest, since it looks likely that we're going to end up changing the template, any new one avoids this clumsy construction. RobbieG 15:17, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Again, since a lot of people seem to be reading this page at the moment, I'd like to point out some cases where I have had plot points spoilt on talk pages and in other places. To my mind, spoiler tags are much better used on talk pages, as they are much more like the discussion forums where such spoiler tags first arose. I would expect to find spoilers in the articles (and so don't need spoilers tags there), but I find it easier to inadvertently stumble across a spoiler on a talk page. This is why in this edit I added the spoiler tag at the top of this talk page (there is currently a Superman Returns spoiler on this page), though maybe I should have put the tag in a more precise location. Hopefully that will explain things to the editor who removed the tag with this edit summary. I also take umbrage that this editor responded to my "no - seriously - this page DOES contain spoilers!" edit summary with: "rm stupid tag. I presum someone is attempting to be funny." thus showing that there was no attempt to assume good faith or even an attempt to look through the page history for the edit summary explaining the addition of the tag.

The other case where I encountered a spoiler was in the non-visible tags that are sometimes placed on article pages, but which are visible when you click "edit this page". For a discussion of this issue (and it involves Harry Potter spoilers), see here. In some very real sense, this raises the question that editors could use spoiler tags to restrict editing to only those editors who have read the latest books in a series. That can't be right. Carcharoth 13:49, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

That sounds sensible. My apologies, I presumed it a jest similar to Template talk:Spoiler. I agree spoiler warnings are more appropriate in discussions. -Randall Brackett 13:59, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I moved the spoiler template to where spoilers occur. I think editors should be able to take part in discussion with at least some of the spoilers tagged.--GunnarRene 15:25, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, GunnarRene, and apology accepted, Randall Brackett. Another point, which I didn't make above, was that by their nature, discussions range over a wide range of topics, and the subject can change quite quickly (less so than in a single encyclopedia article, though browsing an encyclopedia can replicate the shifting topics found in a discussion), hence it is easier for a spoiler to suddenly appear - hence the rise of spoiler tags in (I think) Usenet. Carcharoth 16:23, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, but wikiepdia articles are not discussion. They are mediums through which to obtain knowledge. Not close encounters of 'what happens'. -Randall Brackett 16:28, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. I don't like spoiler tags in articles any more than you do. Carcharoth 17:36, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• I find the addition of the tag underlines the problem here though, since if the plot point is spoilage it undercuts Ned's point that it isn't, and it also undercuts the point that spoiler warnings are used in other media. The detail revealed wasn't tagged in the article, a critical review, so I'm not sure it should be on Wikipedia. I'm not going to revert the tag, but I really think this is an issue which causes edit wars because the templates are so intrusive. I think it can be quite an emotive issue. Hiding Talk 19:49, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

That's why I think it would be preferable to avoid using the term "spoiler warning" because it isn't NPOV. I'd prefer something like

That could be placed above all plot details indiscriminately, thus avoiding bias. RobbieG 21:11, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Jimbo's suggestion is similar - he believes a header simply called "Plot details" would be more appropriate. I agree in the sense it achieves the same goal. This template is entirely redundant. -Randall Brackett 21:25, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, but as I said above, that's way too restrictive. I'd say it was censorship. If an article on Internet memes wants to mention a certain plot detail from Harry Potter 6 as it's a popular meme, we should allow it to, not confine that info to the Harry Potter plot details section, where it doesn't belong. This proposed template would avoid that problem. In a sense, it would be just a label. RobbieG 21:41, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I've nothing to do with that; I didn't even arrive at the idea of restriciting such data to one section. That's another reason for deleting this trash in my view. Editors seem to believe they dictate organization and construction in wikipedia. -Randall Brackett 21:45, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

And yet you maintain that the "Plot details" heading is all that is needed? That doesn't make sense. We should be allowed to put plot details elsewhere, and that's where these templates would be helpful. I get the point that you find the whole concept of spoiler warnings ridiculous, but there are many others who do not share this view, as evidenced above. RobbieG 21:51, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

for instance, here's a page I'm heavily involved in where we have it wrapped around not just plot, but also themes and cast, because some of the details discussed in the latter two could potentially ruin particular episodes. One in particular is the minor character Saffron -- if you read about her, the episode she appears in would be completely ruined as it's the huge twist for that episode and is what defines that episode. -plange 22:00, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'm utterly baffled as to how a "plot details" section is any more restrictive than having to stuff spoilers in between spoiler tags. These little "spoiler sections" seem far more restrictive. Plot sections would at least match the look of rest of the 'pedia. AMHR285 ^(talk) 01:13, 19 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I think it's because a "Plot" or "Plot details" section is offered as a save-all that would do away for the perceived usefulness of spoiler tags in all cases (i.e. plot details discussed only in that section). There can only be one plot details section in the article, while one spoiler tag can cover several sections, or many spoiler tags can be used in the same article to cover different sections or subsections (or paragraphs, that's another discussion). The point being that if an editor wants to illustrate something with a potential "spoiler" elsewhere in the article, or even in an article about a different fictional work, then with the tags the editor could go ahead and do it with tags, while with the "every plot detail in Plot details" solution, the editor would be restricted to discuss plot details in the "Plot details" section of the work's article. --GunnarRene 01:42, 19 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Of course, it's an even better solution if we all just acknowledge that relevant information goes where relevant information belongs. But that won't happen, I guess. Ryu Kaze 01:48, 19 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Spoiler tags don't exclude that relevant information goes where relevant information belongs. If more spoilers are relevant, the editors can include them and just expand the area covered by the tag from a single section or paragraphs, through multiple paragraphs, until the entire article except for the first sentence of the summary ("X is a character in [work Y] by Z") is covered by a spoiler tag. In most cases so much of the article wouldn't need coverage. Perhaps only some subsections of the plot sections, a few parts of cultural influences and reception, maybe. --GunnarRene 02:20, 19 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

A partial solution could be to say that spoiler tags are un-needed in the plot section of a work itself, but would be used outside plot sections or outside the work's article. A minor point against that is a possible lack a way to separate between general plot setting and its details (see Wikipedia:WikiProject_Novels/ArticleTemplate for example)) . --GunnarRene 01:42, 19 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Not sure where to start. Ok, first, I think "these little spoiler sections" are far less restrictive, and that's how I've been using them myself. We shouldn't be deciding things here based on how to use something badly. Also, for crying out loud, Ryu, Randell, don't be a dick. Insulting the people who you are trying to convince is not the best way to win a debate. -- Ned Scott 23:10, 19 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Please stop citing "dick" for everything you don't like to hear. Your declarence to cite it so numerously against editors with good intent is mortifying. Anymore and it constitues a personal attack. Stop. -Randall Brackett 23:39, 19 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

You know, it's actually helpful advice if you were to listen to it, because, well, you are being a dick. And I've only cited it against you and Ryu. If someone asks someone to not be so disrespectful to other people's views, and that someone doesn't listen, you are saying that telling them again is.. wrong? And as I said, this helps you:

"Generally speaking, if you are being a dick, the likelihood that whatever point you are trying to make (or whatever you're doing) will reach the ears of your intended audience damatically diminishes. Why? Simple: no one likes listening to dicks, no matter how correct or in the right they are, and dicks often offend their listeners."

Statements such as "Of course, it's an even better solution if we all just acknowledge that relevant information goes where relevant information belongs. But that won't happen, I guess." and "That's another reason for deleting this trash in my view." are examples of being a dick. Note it even says that it doesn't matter if you are right or wrong, you're still being a dick.

If you wish, I'll use another word or find another essay that says the same thing, but it won't make you any less of a dick. -- Ned Scott 00:01, 20 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I've already acknowledged that I have had full intentions of being what some would consider a heartless bastard or a jackass because I'd ignore courtesies in favor of strict adherence to the encyclopedia's mission and its associated principles, so I'm not going to be heartbroken if you consider me a dick, Ned. You know this.

And, really, I personally don't care how someone delivers a statement if they were right. If they're being a fabulous bastard at the time, then all the better. Ryu Kaze 00:21, 20 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Warning us ahead of time that you intend to behave badly is no excuse for behaving badly. Please be more courteous and avoid the sarcastic statements. Johntex\^talk 00:48, 20 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Never said I intended to behave badly. Just said I intended to be what the majority of you were going to consider a jackass (the one who goes against the majority tends to get this title) because I don't put courtesies before the concepts involved in building an encyclopedia. You guys might consider that behaving badly, but please be aware that I think the same of your stance. As I've said before, this goes back to what we value more, upholding the spirit and letter of a concept without exception or making exceptions for courtesy's sake. I don't doubt that the majority here considers me the black hat, but that in itself is POV, eh? Now, can we please return to the subject of spoiler tags? Ryu Kaze 00:54, 20 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'll modify my statement then. Warning us ahead of time that you intend to behave in a way that most poeple would consider to be bad behaviour is no excuse for engaging in such behavior. Please be more courteous and avoid the sarcastic statements. You ask to return to the subject of spoiler tags. Will you be more civil when we do so? Johntex\^talk 01:02, 20 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

If it means that much to you, I'll maintain my stance of the resident jackass while trying not to include so much of his usual form of expression. Good enough? Ryu Kaze 01:06, 20 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

If I understnad you correctly, yes that would be good enough for me. Thank you. Johntex\^talk 01:10, 20 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Welcome. Ryu Kaze 01:14, 20 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Ryu, that is simply not acceptable. I should not have to explain this. We're trying to address issues, not piss people off. If you really want to continue to be our resident jackass then it'll probably get you blocked from the discussion from an admin. -- Ned Scott 02:13, 20 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Because disagreeing with you is a totally bannable offense? What? Ryu Kaze 02:16, 20 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure you understood what "resident jackass" means. Ryu Kaze 02:16, 20 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This has nothing to do disagreeing with me or not, your behavior at this point is unacceptable. The talk box at the top of the discussion page contains links that will fully explain this to you, if you wish to read them. -- Ned Scott 02:59, 20 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Near as I can tell, you're the only one trying to make an issue here, mate. It's not just my attitude that's getting some limelight, if you follow me. Now if you haven't already come to understand that what I said is the guy who goes against the majority is the one typically labeled a jackass, and that I fully intend to remain as such given the current leaning of the majority, perhaps you will now get it. Johntex seemed to have understood it just fine and I have agreed to — as much as it may pain me — honor his request of sugar coating my messages. Now, I have to ask, why are you seeking a battle? Given that you guys seem to have issue more with how I express myself than what I am expressing, you don't have anything to be complaining about at the moment. Now will you please allow me to keep my word to Johntex (which I have been doing successfully so far)? Ryu Kaze 03:10, 20 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

At least three of us have commented on the way you present your case, Ryu, so to try to paint this as being Ned's issue is incorrect to say the least. CovenantD 03:16, 20 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I won't say that this sarcasm isn't a little bit tiresome, especially when it seems to be missing the point of other people's arguments; however, I don't think these personal attacks are in any way justified. Ryu Kaze, for example, does not strike me as being a particularly bad-tempered editor, or at least, no more so than several others I could mention. As I see it, the only times when Ryu's behaviour has overstepped the mark between what is acceptable and what is offensive is when he has been the victim of an unfair personal attack, in which cases his responses were surely justified! Ned Scott, and others, please do not be so easily offended. Thank you. RobbieG 07:49, 20 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, Robbie, though I think there were a couple of times where I was sarcastic prior to being provoked. In any event, CovenantD, you seem to have quite misunderstood what I was saying: this is the present, not the past. Johntex and I discussed the issue and I gave him my word that I was going to sugar coat my messages for the sake of those who take offense to my unceremoniously honest presentations. I was staying in accordance with this agreement. I have done so. Yet I'm still receiving complaints. This is going to be my last response on the issue, because I'm quite tired of this off-topic irrelevance, especially given that complaints are being issued after you've already received what you asked for. If you don't notice that this message is unnaturally nice (for me), then you really need to take a step back and look at it again. Now please drop it and focus on the purpose of this RfC. Ryu Kaze 12:15, 20 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• Is it fair to say there are three schools of thought on this? That the general disclaimer and well written headers are enough; that they aren't and a template to sit above a section is desired; and that they arent enough and the text itself should be wrapped in a template?
• Would it therefore be an idea to look at discussing the pros and cons of the three approaches and try and build some guidance on what to use and when? It could be that a number of approaches could be included in the guideline depending on the situation. Hiding Talk 19:29, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It's still early in the RfC, lets just watch some more comments come in. -- Ned Scott 19:38, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• • What do you mean by wrapping in templates? Is it related to this: Wikipedia talk:Spoiler warning/Guideline status2#Hiding spoilers and warnings with code? (Hiding the spoiler content itself was not brought forward into to this RfC, only whether or not to hide the tags/templates.) Or are you talking about the difference between using spoiler templates per section or per paragraph? If you mean the latter, then I think that is something rather minor, that may have to wait until the tags/no tags debate has receeded. The examples on the RfC front page show both ways of using them. --GunnarRene 19:39, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • I've seen instances where the tags are inserted into the flow of a paragraph, you know, spoiler begins here and spoiler ends here, that's kind of what I was referring to. From my point of view, that's a style that shouldn't be used, it's far too intrusive. I'm also not convinced the tag or no tag argumetn can be resolved. I'm wondering if we should build guidance asserting that both styles are acceptable - either well written headers are used or the tags are used. Hiding Talk 19:54, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
      • I see. If there's to be no hiding of the actual spoiler content, then parhaps what you suggest would be workable. --GunnarRene 20:27, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It seems to me you are advocating a general template on the top of all fictional articles, something like "This article discussing a fictional work may contain plot details". I would be perfectly happy to support that. Hiding Talk 11:22, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

That would be a reasonable suggestion, yes. The only thing I would object to there is that we already have a spoiler warning template which can be inserted wherever it's appropriate, which is more flexible. I would say that there is no need to label "Joe Bloggs directed this movie" as a spoiler, or even arguably "this film is set in outer space", but if we say "The scene in which Joe kills John in the sixth book was the origin of a controversial Internet meme" that is a spoiler, even though it's not part of the plot section. RobbieG 11:38, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

But then we descend into POV over what constitutes a spoiler. Far better to simply tag all fictional articles as potentially containing plot details, in a manner similar to food products being labelled with may contain nuts. I'm not sure I understand your position at all. You seem to want spoiler warnings on everything you consider spoilage, which to my mind can't work. Hiding Talk 11:46, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

That's why I think we can only make real progress here once we've settled on a widely-accepted definition of the term "spoiler". What I'm saying is that things that obviously don't tell you about the plot are not spoilers, but anything that does is. If we start saying "Oh, this is not a spoiler 'cause everyone knows it's his sled", we are being biased. Also, just to clarify, I think a spoiler warning at the top of every page would work, but I'd be concerned that people might be put off by it. I might look at a page about a fictional work (A) that contains a spoiler because I want to find information unrelated to plot (A). Or I might look at an article about a different work (B) or a real-life subject and be annoyed by the presence of an unexpected spoiler for work (A). You see my point, right? RobbieG 11:57, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

So would a template on the section help, similar to the above? I think it's the insertion of the templates into the flow of the text which makes us look somewhat unprofessional, and also leads to disputes over what constitutes spoilage. Hiding Talk 12:07, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

If it could be inserted at the start of sections rather than pages, then yes. In fact, I think that's possibly my favourite suggestion anyone has made so far. I'd certainly be supportive of that. RobbieG 12:20, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

While I don't think we should be having comments areas on people's positions within their comment sections (the idea was to avoid discussion tornados like we had before), I do want to say one thing since Hiding has made one here: Robbie, of course it's POV that spoiler warnings should be deleted. It's also POV that they shouldn't be. But that has absolutely nothing to do with the NPOV policy, which is related to information that is placed in articles. Ryu Kaze 12:35, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I understand that, but couldn't one argue that an article did contain bias if it included spoilers without warning?

Sorry, I think I basically encouraged people to comment here. I didn't realise that was wrong. My bad. RobbieG 12:49, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Robbie, I appreciate your view, but with regard to your POV argument, you seem to be operating under the assumption that there is a concrete, NPOV definition of the term "spoiler" which includes all plot information. I disagree here. Most dictionary definitions I can find refer to a spoiler as a published piece of information that reveals a "surprise or a plot twist" in a work of fiction. I don't believe one can really argue all plot information in any fictional source is intended as a surprise. To borrow your example, the fact that The Little Engine That Could saves the day in the end is obviously not intended to be incredibly surprising: it's printed on the back cover synopsis of almost every edition, and the image from the page in which it saves the day is also the cover image. To presume that all information in a story should be a secret from the reader/viewer at the time they pick up a work of fiction is POV-pushing -- it pushes the POV that anything other than complete ignorance of the story from the time you read a book or see a movie is a less enjoyable, less pure experience -- in other words, that it "spoils" the experience. By contrast, not making any statement about what does or doesn't "spoil" the story is not POV. If I placed a tag in an article saying "plot information follows, but it won't ruin anything for you if you know about it advance" that would be POV, but not saying anything about the subject of what information "spoils" a story is perfectly neutral. -- Lee Bailey^(talk) 13:30, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Lee, sounds to me like you would be in favor of a better guideline of when to use the tag-- just because some people overuse it doesn't mean we should get rid of it altogether-- to borrow a hackneyed expression, that's throwing the baby out with the bath water. We should perhaps instead give guidelines on best usage. Not having a spoiler tag on Usual Suspects or Sixth Sense would generate tons of screaming at editors on talk pages....plange 19:46, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I would be in favor of a better guideline as a compromise position. I still think that the most NPOV option, however, is skipping the warnings altogether, and since many other academic sources don't have the slightest reservation about "spoiling" stories, that's an option that's entirely open to us. As for the baby/bathwater thing, I may stand alone on this one, but I do think the value of the "baby" in this case is vastly inflated. In any case, if we could find a way to keep it down to the truly "secret" plot information, that would make a difference. -- Lee Bailey^(talk) 21:03, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I get what you're saying. I was just presenting my own POV. Also, I would like to emphasise that there's probably a definition of "spoiler" that we could all agree on, we just haven't found it yet. My second definition I suggested did actually say that information on the blurb might be exempt. The problem here is that some blurbs (for example the Samuel French edition of Blue Remembered Hills) contain very definite spoilers. Actually, I think it would be better if we avoided the use of the word "spoiler" all together, as the meaning seems to be ambiguous.

Regarding my argument that excluding spoilers is itself biased, I do still think that excluding the warning does promote a POV. However, that isn't my main argument, and I wish people would pay more attention to the other, more serious arguments I have put forward here, rather than jumping on every flaw as though it somehow makes the rest less relevant. RobbieG 14:37, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

At first I thought the idea of coming up with examples of spoilers and working out what is really a spoiler and what isn't was a silly idea. But the more examples I look at, the more I realise that sometimes you really can tell what a spoiler is, though it is difficult to put into words.

I agree that "secret" plot twists (such as "who did it", and the Sixth Sense example) are worthy of spoilers. At the other extreme, you have events that are widely known, such as the fate of the Titanic (I'm talking here about spoilers for the movie, not the historical article, obviously), or the title kind of gives it away "The Little Engine That Could", for example. And inbetween, you have a spectrum of other possibilities.

One thing that did strike me though was that the blurb written on the back of many books gives away more of the plot than Wikipedia does. There are even some books where the author gives away plot details near the beginning, or the foreshadowing of events is an integral part of the style. The examples I am talking about here are The Lord of the Rings and The Silmarillion by J. R. R. Tolkien. In the prologue to LotR, the basic outcome is given away to the reader. The same happens to varying degrees in The Silmarillion.

In other words, a lot of this should be done on a case-by-case basis, but I would suggest that the onus be on those using spoiler tags to justify them. They have to say why this really is a spoiler.

In the case of the Sixth Sense, the fact that the ending is a spoiler should actually be mentioned in the article. Something in the lead section should say that "The film ends with a surprise twist that casts the film in a new light. A full appreciation of this <insert technical term here> can only be obtained by watching the film without previous knowledge of the ending. Those who have had the ending revealed to them are said to have had the ending spoiled for them."

Then just use variants of the above in articles with major spoilers. Carcharoth 22:41, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The Silmarillion isn't really presented in the style of a story, but as a collection of "myths". Therefore, I doubt Tolkein ever considered it possible to spoil. RobbieG 22:54, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The film American Beauty would be another example of what you're referring to I think. If I'm remembering right, I believe there was some discussion a while back at that article over whether the fact that a certain character dies is a spoiler, even when that character tells us he's going to die in a voice-over in probably the first 90 seconds of the film (it may even be the first line -- I can't recall). I don't think a single review was written at the time which didn't mention this character's death, so I'd pretty much call it "not a spoiler", although it is technically the "ending" of the film (it just happens to be the beginning as well). Are cases like this really a good example of why we should evaluate case by case, though? It would seem a guideline/style guide could easilly offer a rule of thumb about similar situations (ie, when the ending is obviously not a secret) -- Lee Bailey^(talk) 01:21, 19 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

My all-time most memorable spoiler situation had to do with LotR, actually. When I was first reading it, my then-boyfriend told me how his friend had spoiled it for him by saying, "Is (character x) dead yet?" And I hadn't gotten to that bit myself! As for The Sixth Sense, if I'd read that there was a major plot twist at the end, I'd have spent the film trying to figure it out - which would have been detrimental to my enjoyment. Better to have a spoiler notice that doesn't flag a particular aspect of the story. I certainly agree with the Titanic example, though. Karen 01:12, 19 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I have to disagree here. Virtually every box cover or movie review will mention when a film has a twist ending. I'm pretty sure most people don't think saying "there's a twist at the end" constitutes a spoiler. This is partially why I'd prefer to see the tags not used at all; using them paves the way for other editors to come along and start saying they find other things to be potentially ruinous to their enjoyment. It's really tempting for nice people to want to bow to these requests out of courtesy, but the more we use these tags, the more collateral damage they can potentially do it terms of prose quality, page layout, information exclusion, and general drain on community resources. I'm not trying to pick on your specific concern, Karen, I just think it illustrates that what constistutes a spoiler can be quite subjective indeed. -- Lee Bailey^(talk) 01:41, 19 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Carcharoth brings up some interesting points, and I think his suggestion of simply including the existence of a surprising plot twist in the prose is a good one. If we can say something in normal English, there's no need to use artificial tags. It might even make for better article prose overall, having editors forced to think through why this and that is surprising and how to describe it in normal English. (Just as expanding on a trivia list at the end of many articles is so popular since it's so easy to do, it usually makes for a better article if the editor invests some time in reading the article and try to include the fact in normal prose in its right context.) And often there aren't really any big surprises in a story, and the straight forward plot is all there is to it. Then the "Plot" section header should be enough imo. For, as has been said, who's to say that knowing the plot in a particular case is spoiling a movie/book/play? Does having read the LOTR plot (i.e. the book) spoil seeing the movies? Does knowing in detail the life of Oskar Schindler spoil Schindler's List? I don't think so, quite the opposite, actually. But people will disagree. While some will say that "you have to know this and that before seing this movie" others might prefer to not know anything, not even basic historical facts. This disagreement can also be included in the text with citations. And then we aren't taking side by using a specific tag. But if there undoubtedly is a big plot twist, like many examples mentioned here, describe it as such in normal English. The bigger and more important the twist, the more words we can defend using, maybe even a separate section discussing only the plot surprise, with the section named as such "The big plot surprise", or something. And let it be up to the reader if he wants to continue reading. Shanes 04:12, 19 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure if I totally agree on this. Like what Karen said, you can spoil by saying what kind of spoil it is. In the end, I think it comes down to context. I think anything that forces the editor to actually think more about each spoiler and if it really is a spoiler is a good idea, for that reason alone. Though, we kind of already have this with {{spoiler-about}} and {{spoiler-blank}}. I think things like "this is a spoiler for season 5 of blahblah show" would be acceptable, as well as other things that Carcharoth mentioned. Being less generic would likely cut down on how much people use the tag, since so many put spoiler tags on sections that mention the plot but might not actually contain spoilers. I also think it's possible to tell information that might be seen as a spoiler, but if out of context means nothing to the reader. I think this idea is worth looking into. -- Ned Scott 07:20, 19 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

But the movie Titanic has a fictional subplot with two characters, so the spoiler tags are still needed, at least when covering what happened to Jack and Rose. United 93 also has spoiler tags as well, specifically for the ending, since it isn't quite true to the 9/11 Commission's story. Hbdragon88 16:48, 19 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I think his argument went more towards the fate of the boat itself (which, I agree with, is not what I would call a spoiler) as opposed to the fates of individual fictional characters (which, again, I agree, is a spoiler).Darquis 17:32, 20 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

...been thinking about this a lot, and I think the optional spoiler warnings off-by-default option is still probably the best compromise position, in terms of potentially being acceptable to the widest number of editors. I've noticed, however, it's got a lot of oppose votes above based on the idea the tags would be pointless if off by default. So, by way of compromise yet again, how would people feel about something like what I've attempted to illustrate here [6] ?

By default, one "warning" message only appears at the top of any article with tagged spoilers. This message gives the reader the option to switch the normal warnings ON for the article without being logged in. In theory, logged-in editors could set a preference somewhere to always show spoiler warnings, never show spoiler warnings, or use the default and go by a case by case basis. I believe this would be technically possible to implement. -- Lee Bailey^(talk) 23:48, 19 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

That would be acceptable to me. I can even see the message being tweaked to be less intrusive. -- Ned Scott 23:50, 19 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The exact level of prominence could be debated. The graphic I've offered is just to show the idea -- it's not my exact recommendation of wording, font size, color, or any such thing, and is not binding in a court of law. :) -- Lee Bailey^(talk) 00:01, 20 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I like this idea. Can you get a working example that we can click and play around with? Carcharoth 00:04, 20 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

After mucking around in the sandbox a bit, I'm not sure I could demo this easily, but I believe it would be possible for a developer to achieve by playing with the CSS, altering the tag's div class to "display:none" using a variable or even a separate skin. Without access to variables, the best I could do would be to create a version that was dependant on there actually being two different versions of the example article... would that still be useful?-- Lee Bailey^(talk) 02:22, 20 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• I appreciate the creative suggestion, but it doesn't change my opposition. I think Spoiler warning should be "on" by default. Johntex\^talk 00:14, 20 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I like the wording, Lee, and if this banner would appear on every article — whether they had spoilers or not — and with that exact wording, I'd support it. Would that be acceptable to everyone? Ryu Kaze 00:22, 20 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It might be confusing if it's on an article without spoiler tags, since when the reader clicked on it nothing would happen. -- Ned Scott 00:30, 20 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

They shouldn't be confused. The wording is "may contain spoilers". There's no guarantee that it does. Readers could just take the extra measure if they wanted to. And, really, it should be utilized such that turning it on at one article would turn it on for every article for that user.

Anyway, the important aspect of putting that on every page to me is that all information would be getting the same treament then, which is what I've been wanting to see happen here all along. If every last bit of it's getting the same notice, then any faults I have with it are much less. Ryu Kaze 00:40, 20 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'd be against that. As I've stated before, I do not believe tagging some articles and not others is a POV issue. If an article literally does not have a spoiler tag, then it literally does not have a spoiler tag. -- Ned Scott 00:42, 20 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'd also be against it for the same reason. The tags simply are not a POV issue. - Johntex\^talk 00:45, 20 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Whether you or I think spoiler tags are an issue of POV or not has nothing to do with whether or not it's non-impartial to place that kind of notice on one page and not another. That's one of those black and white subjects that even value assumptions play no part in. If all articles get it, that's impartial. If all don't, then it isn't. There's no way around that one. POV has nothing to do with the matter in this case. Ryu Kaze 00:49, 20 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• Since the prevailing opinin (as evidenced by the straw poll above) is that spoiler warnings should be "on by default". Why not reword this template to say "This article contains spoiler warnings. To turn them off - click here"? Johntex\^talk 00:46, 20 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

That isn't much of a compromise then. Ryu Kaze 00:49, 20 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

First of all, there is nothing that says we must or should compromise. If consensus is to leave the system alone, then we should do so. Creating a compromise for the sake of compromise would be pure folly. Secondly, it actually would be a compromise if what we do is give the reader a button to turn off the warnings. The reader does not have that now. Johntex\^talk 00:53, 20 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Not really. The issues at stake were concerns over the site's integrity and presentation on default. Your concerns — if I've followed you correctly — have all been for the "sake of the readers". With spoiler tags off by default, you guys get your option to "protect" the readers, and we get to be at peace with the notion that the encyclopedia's integrity and professionalism are upheld. That would be a compromise. This is other suggestion is — to me — like saying that matters of integrity and professionalism are secondary.

Even if you don't understand why we see it the way we do and honestly don't care, it's still courteous (there's that word) to seek a solution we can all be happy with. Hell, I'm willing to see your concerns' met with regards to the spoiler tags remaining (even though I'd prefer them gone) so long as ours were. Ryu Kaze 01:00, 20 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Are you saying that if consensus is to leave the tags alone that you will not abide by / respect that consensus? Johntex\^talk 01:11, 20 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I don't exactly have the power to oppose whatever happens. Whether Wikipedia is an intended democracy or not, there's no denying that victory tends to favor the majority here. But I guess that doesn't answer your question. My view would certainly be no different. I'd just more or less be in little position to do anything about it. Whether or not you choose to agree to the specific version of the compromise I requested is only the difference between how much gnashing of teeth and argument we see before the RfC is over.

Way I figure it is, if we all agree on something that involves a little give and take (as we seemed to have when the RfC began), things end a lot faster than they otherwise would, and with less animosity to carry away from the matter. It's obvious there will be no agreement on removing the spoiler tags. It's obvious there will be no agreement on things remaining the way they were. So we can either fight some more or we can just find something to be happy with and let it be over. What do you want? Ryu Kaze 01:22, 20 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Of course, if you wouldn't be happy with spoiler tags not being there by default, then I guess you wouldn't find happiness in the compromise. I just think that my suggestion would be better because everybody gets what they want. You guys get to keep the spoiler tags (you even get a little message at the top of every article about the things) and we get to feel like the encyclopedia's being both professional and ethical. It's not a complete victory for either side, no, but it's co-existance, and that's reason enough to do it. Ryu Kaze 01:32, 20 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

(reset indent) Thanks for the explanation. I disagree that there will be no agreement to keep things the way they are now. The poll on keeping the spoiler tags is currently running at 21 in favor vs 7 opposed. That is pretty strong consensus to keep them the way they are. (Assuming things continue as they are, of course). The strongest consensus of all the polls (again assuming things stay on this track) is the consensus to keep the spoilers on by default (22 to 4). That is why I find it puzzling to put energy against that emerging consensus.
It is also why I suggest that a better potential compromise would be to rework the above template to say:

This article contains spoiler warnings. To turn them off, click here.

Advantages to this are:

1. Sticks with the emerging consensus on this RfC
2. Spoilers are on by default, which is good since it is clear that the majority want to have spoiler warnings.
3. There is no way to "undo" having the article spoiled for you so it makes sense to err on the side of caution not to present spoilers.
4. People who hate spoiler warnings have to just click once to remove them.

This is a compromise compared to the current situation, since right now you have no way to turn off the spoiler tags. Johntex\^talk 01:37, 20 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Once again, I completely agree with with Johntex. -- Ned Scott 02:16, 20 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, Johntex. Been away from the page for a bit, playing in the sandbox. In response to your earlier remarks, I thought this idea could be considered a compromise that's between the off-by-default and on-by-default models. One warning is "on" at the top of the page by default; I don't think too many people would have a problem noticing it. Just so I can better understand your position, can you tell me what you don't like about this idea? The reason I don't support "all warnings on by default" is that in any given article, it will be the minority of readers accessing a page who want spoiler warnings in that specific article. -- Lee Bailey^(talk) 01:54, 20 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Lee, how do you know it will only be a minority? That's your assumption, but our assumption is the opposite, hence why we think they should be "on" by default (if we go this route). Unless we do some kind of poll of Wiki users we cannot know whether it really is a minority or a majority, but I don't think it's an unreasonable assumption to extrapolate from the number of people who want to keep the tag vs. those who don't that it would be the same. -plange 02:18, 20 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Plauge: I'm sorry, I think I didn't explain what I meant very well! I didn't mean to say that the minority of editors will support spoiler warnings. What I mean is that if spoilers can be turned on and off for a single user on a single page, most people won't need spoilers to be on most pages most of the time. Say for example, I support the use of spoiler tags. I will still only need spoiler tags for things I haven't seen or read, and then only the ones I care about seeing. A reader who wants spoiler warnings for

Spiderman 3 may not care at all about Superman Returns. This way we could keep the advantages to not having spoiler warnings in cases where we don't need them and still have spoiler warnings we want, with a minimum of clicking back and forth. -- Lee Bailey^(talk) 02:37, 20 July 2006 (UTC)[reply

]

Does that mean turning tags on at one article would turn them at every article for that user or no? I'm not sure I understood you. Ryu Kaze 02:45, 20 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The compromise I'm thinking of would accomidate both. The default, logged-out position would be warnings-off, with the option to turn warnings on and off for individual articles. If a logged-in user wanted to turn warnings on or off for all articles, they could have that option as well, by setting "preferences". -- Lee Bailey^(talk) 02:55, 20 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I still don't see how it's a compromise. Me seeing the spoiler tags in no way harms me, nor does me turning them off in any way help the image of the encyclopedia as a whole, which is all I'm concerned about. If this weren't an encyclopedia and I weren't considering the princicples of that concept, I'd be right there with you on endorsing spoiler tags. The situation being what it is, though, my only concern is the maintenance of the encyclopedia. At first, even I was vehemently opposed to their removal, but eventually I acknowledged that I understood what the place was when I started working on it.

Again, this particular issue has nothing to do with you or me or people who love the tags or people who hate them. As far as I'm concerned, it has nothing to do with people at all. Yeah, I know encyclopedias are made for people, but even if there weren't any humans in existance, an encyclopedia can still be an encyclopedia. Ryu Kaze 02:23, 20 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The reason my proposed compromise constitutes a compromise is because I (and I believe others) are not interested in a way to turn spoiler tags off. I think it is a bother and I'd prefer not to have to deal with it. I'm willing to consider a way to turn them off, but only if they are on by default. Johntex\^talk 02:42, 20 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Guess we won't be able to see eye-to-eye on this. I don't see it as a compromise because my attention is mainly only on preserving a particular concept, and what concern I would lend to people seeing the things is in the light of comparing the encyclopedia's practices to its foundations. Ryu Kaze 02:45, 20 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Personally, I'm not convinced there is a real need for "compromise". I'll support one (such as Lee's or a version of that) if there is a need. Spoilers have had to been defended several times in the last few months, I'd like us to have a lasting decision now, not a quick fix. Not that I'm calling the current suggestion one, simply, we shouldn't choose something simply because it's less of a headache, because next month it will just come up again. -- Ned Scott 03:06, 20 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Johntex, you raise some good points. My take on it is that there seem to be two basic "camps" in disagreement with each other here. One one side, users who protest the use of warnings feel that the tags look unencyclopedic, and that labelling certain information a "spolier" may not be NPOV. The other camp feels that spoiler tags are helpful to the reader,and that the practical benefit of having these tags outweighs the negatives, which are somewhat subjective. I agree that the majority of Wikipedians are probably in the latter category. However, a majority is not a consensus -- there is still a fairly significant minority that disagrees. This is why I attempted to find a compromise.

I assume a "off-by-default" solution makes the most sense not because I want to put the burden on the extra click on people who support spoiler-warnings -- obviously, I see how it makes sense to put that burden on the smaller group. However, because the editors who want to remove the warnings are largely concerned with the appearance of the encyclopedia to readers (ie, appearing professional, promoting a balanced point of view), I don't think a "warnings-on-by-default" solution addresses their concerns at all. Unless I've misevaluated the situation, editors who want the warnings just want them to be available to readers who want warnings. We can satisfy the demands of BOTH groups by asking one extra click from those who want to see the warnings, but not by doing the reverse. I realize you and others are not interested in a way to turn spoilers off, but I believe it is in everyone's interest to find solutions that appeal to the broadest consensus possible, not just the majority. -- Lee Bailey^(talk) 03:56, 20 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I would definitely support Lee Bailey's proposal. Whilst I am in favour of spoiler tags, there is no reason why we can't have them switched off by default, and this version of that idea would be perfect, as there would be no way anyone who objects to spoilers can have a work spoiled. If they did, it'd be their own fault so they couldn't complain! Lee Bailey, congratulations. You came up with what could well be the best answer so far. I'd certainly be supportive of this. RobbieG 07:59, 20 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• While I appreciate the creative thinking, I am opposed to this solution for several reasons. Among them:

1. Most people who have registered an opinion here want the spolier warnings visible by default.
2. I think there is less burden (for those who don't care about the warning) to simply scroll past it, than there is to make a click to see the warnings and wait for a page reload.
3. Since I don't agree there is any merit to the argument that the tags are somehow POV, I don't want to create any sort of precedent that might malign these and potentially other similar tags in the future.
4. If they are hidden by default, fewer editors might take the time to add them, which I think would be a shame since they are useful.

I have created a new section (below) around the idea that perhaps we can take this idea and turn it around so the warnings are shown by default and the click is used to hide them. Johntex\^talk 21:12, 20 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that the spoiler warnings themselves don't violate NPOV, but I have come to think of the actual term "spoiler warning" as being biased. "Warning" implies it is something you should be concerned about. Definitions of "spoiler" seem to vary greatly, from my definition of any plot details that are not stated on the cover, to the occasional definition that has been put forward implying that a spoiler has to be both recent and largely unexpected. RobbieG 21:41, 20 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I generally agree that Lee's idea would reduce the 'unprofessional presentation' complaints of many, but unfortunately it doesn't address my primary concern. Specifially, the problem I have with 'spoiler warnings' is not the tags themselves, but the reshaping of articles caused by the concept. Central facts which would normally be included in the lead are removed to prevent 'spoilage', all 'spoiler' information is concentrated into a single segment in the middle of the article rather than appearing where it would more naturally fit, et cetera. Unfortunately, hiding spoiler tags will not eliminate this problem... there is an inherent difference between writing in an encyclopedic style and writing in a 'spoiler safe' style. On 'the other side' this inherent conflict in goals leads to complaints about 'spoilers outside the spoiler section' or articles not having spoiler warnings (the disagreement over whether Beowulf should have spoiler warnings being a good example).

As such I'd like to suggest another option... same concept of the banner at the top with clickable options and defaults settable somewhere, but instead of turning 'section spoiler tags' on and off it instead turns the spoiler text itself on or off. Write the entire article with no concern whatsoever for spoilers and then go through and mark sections or individual sentences/clauses to not display if spoilers are a concern. By default you get the banner which has an on/off toggle for 'spoiler text' with such defaulted to display just as in Lee's proposal (possibly having a preference setting to default to spoilers hidden). Someone who doesn't care about spoilers at all could set an option to hide the banner itself and thus always see an article written in an encyclopedic organizational style with no banner or tags. We haven't used 'hidden text' for spoilers to date primarily because of concerns about unprofessional appearance and technology issues. I think the first is less of a problem if it is something you have to 'opt into' - and it can help to remove the equally problematic tags. The tech issues could be eliminated entirely with a MediaWiki change, but at present are really only a concern for a handful of old browsers and screen-readers (well under 1% of users)... which would receive the spoiler warning banner, but no option to hide the spoiler text.

I can see where this might still result in different writing style than if there were no spoilers at all... breaking sentences so that a spoiler fact is isolated from non-spoiler facts, having a couple of lines in the 'plot' section which are very generic non-spoiler text (e.g. 'The Empire Strikes Back picks up X years after the events of the first Star Wars film and continues to follow the characters introduced there.') that continues to display when the rest of the plot is hidden, et cetera. However, these would be comparatively minor and could be smoothed out. Everyone would receive a top of the article spoiler warning unless they specifically chose not to, clunky 'spoiler section' tags would never be displayed, and all but a very few (or everyone if a MediaWiki change were made) could choose to read a non-spoiler version of the article. Thoughts? --CBD 12:34, 20 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I see your point, but I'm not sure I like the idea. The spoiler tags themselves are basically inoffensive and harmless. If this system was abused, whole big portions of text could be made hidden. RobbieG 12:54, 20 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

CB, the issue about organization is one of the biggest problems I have with spoiler tags. Right now, I think there is a tendency to group spoiler information together to prevent having lots of "begin spoiler/end spoiler tags", which can adversely affect layout. If the waring-tags were hidden, though, this would only impact the readers who chose to see them, who would be choosing to temporarilly sacrifice the cleaner layout in order to have the warnings. Therefore, my thought on this is that having the warning-tags switched off by default would allow for placing spoiler information in any section where it's appropriate, just by using multiple sets of the standard tag. I don't know if that addresses your concern. -- (Lee)Bailey^(talk) 13:11, 20 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

My agreement's with Lee and Rob here. A system like that is just begging for the vandals — and people who, for instance, would like to pretend the sequels and prequels to Final Fantasy VII don't exist — to take advantage of it by blocking non-spoiler info into the template and getting it hidden from the eyes of many. Lee's suggestion would take care of everything just fine because relevant plot details could be placed where needed throughout the article without concern for grouping it, and anyone who chose to implement spoiler tags would be aware that there might be some flow issues as a result. This way, those who want spoiler tags get them, and those, like yourself, who loath the notion of ignoring relevant placement of information for the sake of putting spoilers "inside the box" don't have to worry about it. Ryu Kaze 13:54, 20 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Lee and Ryu, unfortunately I don't think it will work that way. While it may seem counter-intuitive, I'd argue that the majority of people supporting spoiler tags don't particularly like the look of them either. That's why they try to group the spoilers into just one section... because they recognize at some level that those tags just look bad. You will never get a lead on an 'Anakin Skywalker / Darth Vader' article which mentions that he is Luke Skywalker's father because then you'd have to put spoiler warnings around just one sentence in the lead paragraph... which would split the lead paragraph apart. It looks dumb... even to the people who like spoiler warnings. Do you really think they are going to want the 'normal' (from their perspective) version, with the spoiler warnings, to look terrible? No, they'd reformat it to minimize the 'chopping up' impact of the spoiler warning lines just as they do now. I see your concerns about people 'hiding text which does not need to be hidden', but that would only happen if someone clicked the 'hide spoilers' link... and they'd see huge blocks of text disappearing. I don't really think it would be a vandal magnet or difficult to spot/correct... there isn't anything stopping vandals from doing this now, yet they don't. --CBD 10:29, 21 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

While true that vandals don't try abusing it too much right now, it's not as potentially disruptive either. Given how many vandals do "blanking", this seems like something they'd get into. Ryu Kaze 12:14, 21 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I will shortly write this essay, which states briefly that I believe spoiler tags should be use sparingly and only when revealing the detail so tagged would substantially negatively impact the ability of a reader to enjoy the work so spoiled, and that the spoiler has not entered mainstream culture enough that the vast majority of readers are not already spoiled.

As such, I have, and have been, throughtout this discussion, removing spoiler tags from every article mentioned. I have not been reverted. Hipocrite - «Talk» 13:58, 20 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• Well, I think there's a case to be made for advocating the two approaches, since there is no consensus here on what constitutes a spoiler. I think we're going to have to guide that if a spoiler template can be avoided, avoid it, and where it can't, don't, and that people shouldn't edit war on the issue. There's certainly no consensus that spoiler warnings should be used arbitrarily. Hiding Talk 14:05, 20 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• • Ironically, my removal of the American Beauty spoiler tags were instantly reverted. Hipocrite - «Talk» 14:06, 20 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Re "that the spoiler has not entered mainstream culture enough that the vast majority of readers are not already spoiled". Hm. How does this affect non-American readers, or those who choose to read/watch an old book or film? --GunnarRene 14:14, 20 July 2006 (UTC) You're welcome to move this section to the talk page of that essay though. --GunnarRene 14:14, 20 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• I am not oblivious to the fact that a substantial minority of our readers are from other countries. Old books and films, however, such as citizen kane, have been spoiled for the vast majority of people who would read the article on citizen kane. Hipocrite - «Talk» 14:27, 20 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • If you look at the article on Spoiler (media) out of those 16 "classic" spoilers in the ToC, I'm still not spoiled on 8, and unsure about 1 (I'm not confirming because I don't want to be spoiled). So that makes at least 50% of those classic spoilers unknown to me. We intend to distribute Wikipedia on paper or other media to 3rd world countries. (Not all obscure fiction articles might be included, but that depends on the medium). They might not have the same education in classical English literature or might even be using us while studying literature/film, etc. --GunnarRene 15:08, 20 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
• Hipocrite, you are incorrectly stating on article talk pages that there is a consensus to do away with these tags. That is simply false, as a look at the straw polls here easily reveals. I've reverted you twice and I will keep doing so if you insist on this crusade while the matter is still being discussed and while your view is in the minority. Johntex\^talk 14:21, 20 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• • There is and was consensus that the tags were only to be used for things that spoil plot twists. The guideline only supports tagging plot twists. There are no plot twists in the spoiler sections I have removed, except for possibly Citizen Kane, and everyone who would read the article knows the plot twist there. Hipocrite - «Talk» 14:25, 20 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

That is not correct. In the case of Flight 93, for instance, the plot section tells you exactly how the movie ends. I do agree, however, it would be better for the spoiler to be further down the page, instead of applying to the entire plot. I've move the spoiler notice to a better position. Johntex\^talk 14:37, 20 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Er, the passangers overpower the terrorists and win. This is not a plot twist - everyone in the world knows this. I've begun a discussion on the article talk page re this. Hipocrite - «Talk» 14:38, 20 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

(Why do people sometimes want to start their written statements with sub-syllables? Does it help make the argument?) Er, and I replied to you there as well. This is a fictional movie. The prospective viewer can't be expected to know if the movie follows the actual path of history or not. Johntex\^talk 14:42, 20 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hm. This is one of those borderline cases. I haven't watched United 93 yet, but I have watched Titanic (1997), and my opinion is that spoiler warnings are only needed on any fictionalized portions of the movie. In the example of the Titanic movie, that would be information about the fates of the fictional main characters. --GunnarRene 14:54, 20 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Does United 93 claim to be an accurate re-telling? If it does, then it doesn't need spoiler warnings at all. Divergence with the 9-11 commision report is then irrellevant to the question of spoilers. If it claims to be all non-fiction -> no spoilers. --GunnarRene 15:12, 20 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

In the case of Citizen Kane as well, the conclusion of the movie is a spoiler. For every person, there is a first time they learn the ending of a movie or book. They should be warned before that ending is presented to them in an encycopedia article. As with United 93, I moved the spoiler tag in Citizen Kane further down the plot section, so that the reader may get an overview of part of the plot before encountering the tag. Johntex\^talk 14:47, 20 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Everyone on United 93 died and there are only a partial cockpit voice recording, a few cell phone calls + forensic evidence to tell us about the end of the flight. The movie is necesarily fictionalized because it has had to make stuff up to fill in the gaps. We don't know ahead of time how closely it sticks to known facts. At the very least, the revelation of when the movie ends (pre-crash, post-crash) is a spoiler. Johntex\^talk 15:21, 20 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Please don't tell me you intend to add spoiler tags to

Gospel_According_to_Matthew (JESUS IS RESSURECTED AT THE END). If you do, and there's no strong consensus that you are wrong, I will be forced to change my opinion on this whole matter. Hipocrite - «Talk» 14:51, 20 July 2006 (UTC)[reply

]

Works that claim to be non-fiction do not need spoiler tags at all. For example the Bible or

Holy Blood Holy Grail. A book that needs them is The Da Vinci Code --GunnarRene 14:56, 20 July 2006 (UTC)[reply

]

This way we don't need to make a judgement about whether the works are truly historical. The crux is what the authors present them as.--GunnarRene 14:59, 20 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I would generally agree that works that claim to be non-fiction do not need a spoiler tag. There may be an exception some where, but I can't think of one. Johntex\^talk 15:21, 20 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Can I just say - I am not American, and I'm not familiar with every aspect of American culture. I also don't watch every film as soon as it's out. I only saw Jurassic Park first time a few weeks ago! Quite plainly, there are people for whom plot details that Americans consider a part of "mainstream culture" are in fact massive spoilers. So you may not be presenting a worldwide view. RobbieG 15:53, 20 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, this is a rather ironic example, in that even before the prologue of The Da Vinci Code, the book implies that — the characters involved aside — all the information being presented is historically accurate. What then would be done? According to your suggestion, Gunnar, The Da Vinci Code would not get spoiler tags, despite its prominent place in current pop culture. There's a bit of a double-edged sword at work there. Not that I really care where spoiler tags end up going so long as we're still considering the possibility of them being off by default, but I do think there's a bit more consideration needed in these matters.

Even taking it on a case-by-case basis, you'd end up having editors deciding which works claiming to be accurate did or didn't need spoiler tags. I don't think you're going to find a standard solution for the matter, and, really, the more you guys get into discussing when and where spoiler tags should be used, the more you're going to get into matters of POV. For this reason, if no other, spoiler tags off by default are getting more and more attractive. Ryu Kaze 18:44, 20 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I deliberately chose that example to be illustrative of a borderline issue. Holy Blood Holy Grail doesn't need spoiler tags because it claims to be totally non-fictional. The "The Da Vinci Code" does need them, since it has fictionalized parts. As I said in the structured discussion (what happened to structure?) there should be a guideline that says how to use spoiler tags and puts a boundary on when it's good, and when it's not good to use them. Then editors use good faith inside those boundaries. One question is which parts of this kind of fictional work should be tagged. Only the self-claimed fiction, or also the claimed non-fictional history? I would think that is a subject for the talk pages of those articles, and that the guideline could state "Information from narratives claimed to be completely non-fiction does not need spoiler warnings. Information from narratives that mix claimed historical fact with admitted fiction, may in some cases need spoiler warnings." Kicks to Dan Brown for providing the example. And to Peter Smith (judge) for speaking the truth. :-)--GunnarRene 20:02, 20 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

To clarify, I'm not concerned with what's decided about when and where they're used so long as they aren't presented by default. However, I do think that you guys are going to need to put more thought into this, as — if POV is a potential concern for you guys in the spoiler-tagged version of the encyclopedia (again, it wouldn't be a concern of mine; just pointing this out for your benefit in case you're concerned with it) — it's beginning to look more and more like situations would be dependent on the POV of the editors involved. I'm not too sure how well the system would work, and it's not going to be as simple a matter as it might have seemed previously. Just an observation. Ryu Kaze 18:48, 20 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Since I don't think there is any POV problem in applying the tags, I am not teribly worried about whether they are used perfectly consistently in the few fictional works that make some allusion to being a factual work. Consistency is valuable, but so is good writing and good sources, and tons of other things we need to worry about as more pressing matters, IMO. Johntex\^talk 18:59, 20 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry, but I still don't see this as POV to use spoiler tags, so until you can convince us of that... I know you guys mean well and have the best interests of WP at heart, but this still seems like much ado about nothing, IMO. There are MUCH bigger problems with fiction (in-universe writing vs. out-of-universe, fancruft, etc) that endangers WP from being taken seriously as an encyclopedia and I just seriously do not see spoiler tags as being unprofessional or unencyclopedic. -plange 19:05, 20 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think either of you followed what I was saying there. Perhaps I didn't explain it clearly. I'm saying that even if you think spoiler tags are not POV, the deeper the discussion goes about when and where they should or shouldn't apply, the more POV gets inserted. The fact that there's even a little bit of disagreement going on among the pro-spoiler tag people on this subject should indicate that if nothing else does. Again, I'm not saying that I would be concerned about that as long as the things were off by default (why would I care in that case?), but for those of you who don't feel like spoiler tags' use has been POV and wants to see them stay, the current discussion of their implementation is increasingly POV. I hope that was clearer. Ryu Kaze 19:09, 20 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Again, I'm not concerned with it, but for those of you who would be — while thinking that their recent use hasn't been POV — that would be a change to definite POV. So far people have been using them in a blanket fashion. Under this development, it's becoming more of a net. Ryu Kaze 19:11, 20 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

(reset indent) Again, choosing to use a spoiler tag or not is no more a POV question that any other editing decision we make, such as whether or not to include a specific image, or a specific reference. Johntex\^talk 19:14, 20 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

A specific reference isn't a POV issue, we should reference what we write from the source we got it, and again with images, we should use the most free image available. Still these issues get edit warred upon. Spoiler template use is entirely POV, that's the consensus on this page since no-one agrees when and how to use it. The people who always want to use one object to the one we already always use, i.e. the disclaimer, and also object to a generic template. The wjhole thing is subjective. There's a discussion above about a plot point regarding the new Superman film where one spoiler template advocate insists it isn't a spoiler and another inserts a spoiler template around it. To state this isn't a POV issue is wrong. It might not be POV in the

WP:NPOV sense, but it is a subjective issue and I can't see a clear consensus forming on how or when to use them, only that they exist for use as individual editors see fit. Hiding Talk 21:59, 20 July 2006 (UTC)[reply

]

Disagreeing on the best possible use of spoiler tags certainly does not indicate they have NPOV problems. As you say, it is a subjective debate, and that does involve the opinions of the editors, but that is not the same as a POV/NPOV problem. The same sorts of debates happen about whether an article has too many images, which image better shows the subject, whether a section is too long or two short. Those are editting debates, not POV problems. Johntex\^talk 23:01, 20 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The difference with those kinds of situations, though, is they don't try to determine which information is unsuitable for absorption and then take a measure to put a neon sign (or template with a blue link as the case may be) around it so as to make readers think "Maybe I shouldn't see this specific information". There's a fundamental difference in concept between which image better illustrates a concept and which information should, perhaps, not be seen. Ryu Kaze 23:05, 20 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The reason I don't accept that to be true is that I don't view the spoiler tag as an attempt to hide information. To the contrary, I view it as a way to better inform the reader about the content of the article. Johntex\^talk 23:17, 20 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I haven't said that as far as I know. It's not an attempt to hide information, but an attempt to suggest to readers that it may be inappropriate for them to see it. Since that suggestion is based on the editor's own determination of what may or may not be suitable for someone else to see, that's the part I call a violation of NPOV. We're simply not supposed to single info out like that with regards to suitability or accuracy. With an encyclopedia article, I don't believe that's ever acceptable. Ryu Kaze 23:40, 20 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Exemplum Biblicum et cetera

Note: Feel free to move this sub-section to where on this page you think it fits.
We have an article called Criticism of the Bible. Some Christians might believe the Bible to be infallible and don't want to see critisism of their faith could avoid that article to keep away from most of the critisism, could they not? Is that an obstacle to learning? The Bible article has critisism spread throughout, but a similarly loyalist Michael Moore fan could keep away from

Another thing: Somebody browsing Category:Christianity can avoid the Criticism of Christianity article, and with machine assisted filtering, they could block all articles in the subcategory Category:Biblical criticism. There goes the critical people and their theories. Assesment. Classification. Censorship or Avoidance by reader. --GunnarRene 00:03, 21 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The title "Criticism of the Bible" is not an obstacle to learning. Someone's own inability to accept that something they like could be criticized negatively would be the obstacle there. In any event, we're not supposed to consider something like "This might be offensive to so-and-so, so we should stuff it in a section/article to itself", and that wasn't the case there. There's just far too much to say about various aspects of the Bible. In fact, NPOV says that all info should go in a single article if possible. The Bible article has like two dozen daughter articles, of which the criticism thing is only one. It's just not reasonable to try including all of it.

There's nothing restrictive about the Michael Moore or Ann Coulter sections either. Criticism on them can fit into the main article just fine, and it's not being placed in that section because it's negative and they're trying to "protect" their fans. It's grouped like that because it's logical to group related information together such that it flows coherently and doesn't jump around. This makes it easier to access the criticism information, not harder, and it makes the article as a whole more sensible.

In any event, "criticism" is not negative by definition. Criticism can be positive or negative. It's just got a negative connotation because people don't like being criticized. And where does NPOV say anything about trying to isolate criticism to "protect" sensitive people? Ryu Kaze 00:14, 21 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

As I said, not 1-to-1 relationship. It is done to structure the information. But the information still goes through a similar process, and the results of the process can be applied in a similar fashion. Re, words: Critisism neutral by definiton, negative by use (or positive in other use). Spoiler negative by definition, usage sometimes negative, positive or neutral. Other sections discuss how wording can be changed. --GunnarRene 00:30, 21 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I truly don't see how there's anything similar. "Criticism" is not only negative. Criticism sections tend to contain both positive and negative views. Look at Final Fantasy X and Final Fantasy VIII for some examples of what these sections are supposed to do. In any event, even if some overly-sensitive paranoid person wouldn't look at a criticism section for fear of seeing their beloved media object/personality receiving some negative comments, the title isn't there for the purpose of suggesting to that person that they not look and the word is not inherently negative. It's a neutral term that is identifying where that information has been clustered for easier access. That's it. Ryu Kaze 00:38, 21 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Not sure what your point is about someone choosing to block their own access to articles related to Biblical criticism. That's something the reader would be doing to theirself, not something we'd be suggesting. Ryu Kaze 00:16, 21 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Just stating that categories could be used for both actual censorship (such as blocking in the network, see 2nd argument section), and for an unstandardized regulation of content that the readers choose to act upon theirselves. --GunnarRene 00:30, 21 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

None of that is stuff that we regulate, endorse, intend or suggest. Ryu Kaze 00:38, 21 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]