Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Middle-earth/archive19

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Lamps of the Valar

notable and could be (re?)created on English one? Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 10:12, 16 February 2022 (UTC)

It could. Chiswick Chap (talk) 10:14, 16 February 2022 (UTC)
@Chiswick Chap Any chance you plan on tackling this in the foreseeable future? Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 10:25, 17 February 2022 (UTC)
I'll think about it. The lamps are actually covered in some detail already, complete with map-diagrams, so I'd have to feel convinced we had enough extra to say not merely to repeat what is already in the History of Arda and other articles. The danger if we go too far without good reason is that a merge/delete campaign will start up again, and for my money, once was easily enough. So, it's strong, robustly-cited, scholarly articles or nothing. The Spanish article, for instance, is almost entirely primary-cited, which would be a clear deletion candidate over on this wiki. The French one has 4 secondary sources. All the best, Chiswick Chap (talk) 10:30, 17 February 2022 (UTC)

User script to detect unreliable sources

Main page: User:Headbomb/unreliable

I have (with the help of others) made a small user script to detect and highlight various links to

predatory journals. Some of you may already be familiar with it, given it is currently the 39th most imported script on Wikipedia
. The idea is that it takes something like

  • John Smith "Article of things" Deprecated.com. Accessed 2020-02-14. (John Smith "[https://www.deprecated.com/article Article of things]" ''Deprecated.com''. Accessed 2020-02-14.)

and turns it into something like

It will work on a variety of links, including those from {{cite web}}, {{cite journal}} and {{doi}}.

The script is mostly based on

WP:CITEWATCH
and a good dose of common sense. I'm always expanding coverage and tweaking the script's logic, so general feedback and suggestions to expand coverage to other unreliable sources are always welcomed.

Do note that this is not a script to be mindlessly used, and several caveats apply. Details and instructions are available at User:Headbomb/unreliable. Questions, comments and requests can be made at User talk:Headbomb/unreliable.

-

b
}

This is a one time notice and can't be unsubscribed from. Delivered by: MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 16:01, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

Redirect discussion for
Fellowship of the Ring (characters)

The redirect

Fellowship of the Ring (characters) is under discussion. See Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 July 13#Fellowship of the Ring (characters). —Lights and freedom (talk ~ contribs) 05:23, 13 July 2022 (UTC)

Roll call

Please sign your name below; if you stop being interested in editing here, please remove your name! Comments are optional.

Sundering of the Elves.

Sundering of the Elves is a DYK article today if anyone is interested. GimliDotNet (talk) 17:55, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

Encyclopedia of Arda

Is [1] a RS? I don't think it was discussed at

notablity? Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 09:55, 22 July 2022 (UTC)

"probably ok but redundant to ... Tolkien" is I think broadly correct: the analysis at glyphweb is thorough and careful but not scholarly. I've removed it and replaced it where necessary with primary references. Chiswick Chap (talk) 10:06, 22 July 2022 (UTC)
@
GlyphWeb, come to think if it. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 07:15, 6 October 2022 (UTC)
@
influences rather than secondary-world history as such. I think the best bet will be Tolkien fandom#Online which is at least a decent home for such sites. All the best, Chiswick Chap (talk) 07:24, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

Concerns about notability

I've come across a lot of articles about fictional elements in LOTR and I have to say that very few of them have any sort of claim per the GNG that they are actually notable. For example:

  • Dol Guldur
    —mostly just plot, basically a paragraph of out-of-universe detail in the appearances section, no clear GNG passing.
  • Article has 17 secondary sources, a mix of scholarly sources (Nelson 2000, Rutledge 2004), popular sources such as game sites, Tolkien artists (Myth and Magic: The Art of John Howe, 2001), and Brian Sibley's 2013 movie book. Even so, further sources are clearly available: the 'Adaptations' section links and describes LOTRO: Shadows of Angmar as well as Jackson's films, both of which can certainly be sourced reliably. But I think we can sensibly merge to Mirkwood here. Chiswick Chap (talk) 19:20, 5 October 2022 (UTC)
  • Barad-dûr
    —all just plot details except for a tiny mention of its depiction in the films, which doesn't demonstrate notability.
  • Reliable sources include Shippey 2005 in addition to the film material (which has two scholarly sources, Mathijs & Pomerance 2006, and Woodward & Kourelis 2006). I agree this is thin, and will merge this now to Mordor where it belongs. Chiswick Chap (talk) 19:20, 5 October 2022 (UTC)
  • Lonely Mountain—the secondary sourcing here is to The Hobbit's themes, where the mountain itself is incidental.
  • No, the "Hobbit" sources are clearly identified as "Primary". On WikiProject Middle-earth, "Secondary" broadly means "Not Tolkien", as far as books are concerned; Tolkien's own writings are always included in the Primary list. The "Reception" sources are specifically about the Lonely Mountain, just as the "Adaptations" sources are, and the scholars discuss the symbolism of the mountain specifically. Chiswick Chap (talk) 19:31, 5 October 2022 (UTC)
There are 12 secondary sources here, including 3 about adaptations, Fonstad's Atlas, 2 on astronomical objects named for the famous Tolkien mountain, and 6 scholarly sources (Matthews 1975, Lobdell 1975, Green 1980, Pearce 2012, Shippey 2005, and Harper 2006). I note an editor's comment on the talk page, that "It's only the most well-known place in Middle-earth: the focus of the Dwarves' quest throughout The Hobbit." That comment in itself doesn't touch the notability issue, but it's certainly a pointer that deletion or even merging would be a mistake, and the list of distinguished scholars should give a definite "keep" for this one. Chiswick Chap (talk) 19:20, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

I'm considering nominating these and others for deletion, but I'd welcome opinions on merge targets or other options first. Thanks, Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs talk 18:45, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

I don't think deletion is appropriate for any of these; the quick analysis above suggests two merges and one keep. I've annotated the list accordingly. Chiswick Chap (talk) 19:20, 5 October 2022 (UTC)
Agree, there's sources for most of this. The Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Forlong the Fat type stuff is long gone. Hog Farm Talk 19:32, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

Erebor has a fairly detailed and well referenced reception section that should immediately dispel any notion of deletion / merger. For me Dol Guldor and Barad-dûr can be merged into Mirkwood and Mordor respectively. But I’m not too bothered if they stay and are expanded. GimliDotNet (talk) 19:47, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

Since

WP:SIGCOV is met (I didn't look at sources), but I'd worry to much about this article. On the surface, it looks, as I said, better than most of the stuff that ends up at AfD for fiction, and again, we have plenty of that worse stuff to go through. I always think it's best to work from the bottom up, and this is not bottom. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 07:13, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

I think my issue is that SIGCOV isn't met. Merely mentioning these things in secondary sources versus significant coverage are very different things, as you well know. To take Dol Guldur, for example,[2] I don't see significant coverage in any of the secondary sources (and the grouping itself and Chiswick above misuse or misunderstand "secondary", as an official movie guide for example is a primary source not secondary.) The articles I highlighted here were simply from following one article to another and noting issues; I'm more than happy to systematically go through articles but that was not my intention. I think the fact that people quickly agreed these probably needed to get merged is enough of an indication that this stuff should get checked over more thoroughly. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs talk 16:27, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

You’re straying dangerously close to failing

WP:NPA when insinuating contributors are “misusing” secondary sources, adding the “or misunderstanding” is not good enough. A quick glance at the secondary sources on Dol Guldor shows none of them are “official movie guides”. GimliDotNet (talk) 18:57, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

As an administrator it’s actually unforgivable and unbecoming of your position. You’ve made a claim that isn’t true please withdraw and clarify you’re not accusing good faith editors of gaming the system. GimliDotNet (talk) 19:00, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

...So you're saying this book, officially released as a companion to the film, is an independent source per
WP:PSTS? Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs talk 20:17, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

It’s arguably a secondary source on Dol Guldor as it’s once removed from the original work yes. GimliDotNet (talk) 20:34, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

And you still haven’t withdrawn your
WP:NPA agains Chiswick. Until you do, I will not respond any further to your comments. GimliDotNet (talk) 20:37, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

Talk:Tolkien and race

There is a discussion at Talk:Tolkien and race on whether the article is neutral. Project members are invited to join in. Chiswick Chap (talk) 09:35, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

Talk:Adaptations of Middle-earth

There is a discussion at

Middle-earth in film should be called, given that it encompasses film, television, and streaming, but no other adaptations. Project members are invited to join in. Chiswick Chap (talk) 17:03, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

Naming of weapons in Middle-earth

There is a discussion at

Middle-earth weapons and armour, a list article. Project members are invited to join in. Chiswick Chap (talk) 15:37, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

Orc

There is a discussion at Talk:Orc about the right word to cover the use of the term "Orc" in modern conflicts. Project members are invited to join in. Chiswick Chap (talk) 10:10, 18 January 2023 (UTC)

Bree, Middle-earth

There is a discussion at

Talk:Bree, Middle-earth about whether the article should be redirected to The Shire#Bree where the place is described and illustrated. Project members are invited to join in. Chiswick Chap (talk) 21:59, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

Gollum, the Turkish President, and civil rights

There is a discussion at Talk:Gollum about how much (if any) coverage the Gollum article should have of alleged insults to the Turkish President involving a Gollum image, and of legal action and campaigning in other countries about the resulting imprisonments and civil rights in Turkey. Project members are invited to join in. Chiswick Chap (talk) 09:54, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

Northern courage in Middle-earth

There is a discussion at

PROD. Project members are invited to join in. Chiswick Chap (talk) 16:25, 18 March 2023 (UTC)

Project-independent quality assessments

Quality assessments by Wikipedia editors rate articles in terms of completeness, organization, prose quality, sourcing, etc. Most wikiprojects follow the general guidelines at Wikipedia:Content assessment, but some have specialized assessment guidelines. A recent Village pump proposal was approved and has been implemented to add a |class= parameter to {{WikiProject banner shell}}, which can display a general quality assessment for an article, and to let project banner templates "inherit" this assessment.

No action is required if your wikiproject follows the standard assessment approach. Over time, quality assessments will be migrated up to {{WikiProject banner shell}}, and your project banner will automatically "inherit" any changes to the general assessments for the purpose of assigning categories.

However, if your project has decided to "opt out" and follow a non-standard quality assessment approach, all you have to do is modify your wikiproject banner template to pass {{WPBannerMeta}} a new |QUALITY_CRITERIA=custom parameter. If this is done, changes to the general quality assessment will be ignored, and your project-level assessment will be displayed and used to create categories, as at present. Aymatth2 (talk) 14:27, 12 April 2023 (UTC)

Addition of species named after Sauron to that article and to the list of such things

There is an discussion at Talk:Sauron about whether a number of species named after the character should be listed in the article as well as in List of things named after J. R. R. Tolkien and his works. Project members are invited to contribute to the discussion. Chiswick Chap (talk) 06:05, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

Names of eras in History of Arda

An editor is repeatedly changing the Names of eras such as "Years of the Lamps" in History of Arda. A discussion is ongoing at Talk:History of Arda, to which project members are invited. Chiswick Chap (talk) 12:20, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

Closure needed at Talk:Orc

A split discussion on this page needs an uninvolved editor (I believe) to close the proposal. Chiswick Chap (talk) 09:36, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

Addition of plot/content detail to The Return of the King

A discussion has been started at Talk:The Return of the King on the addition of plot/content detail to the associated article. WikiProject members and other editors are invited to contribute their views. Chiswick Chap (talk) 08:20, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

Tolkien and JW Dunne

More eyes would be appreciated at

Talk:Time in J. R. R. Tolkien's fiction#Time in different dimensions and we are in danger of an edit warrior going too far. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 18:21, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

All that is needed is for folks to acknowledge that an author's output is different from their inputs. If an editor is muddled about that, a little quiet reflection should sort it out. Chiswick Chap (talk) 21:15, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

Discussion at Talk:Cirith Ungol (band)

 You are invited to join the discussion at

talk 14:04, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

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