Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2022-03-27/From the Signpost team
We stand in solidarity with Ukraine
The Signpost's commitment to inform, entertain and publish to the Wikimedia movement becomes even more critical in times of crisis. The ongoing
The Signpost team stands in solidarity with the communities–those directly affected in Ukraine and all others who work to protect access to free knowledge. We are also working to document and unearth as much as we can about the war and those affected, publishing reports on disinformation, spotlighting the voices of Ukrainians impacted, featuring the rich history of Ukraine, and much more. Please share any suggestions or tips at Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/Newsroom/Suggestions or by emailing the editor-in-chief privately. Submissions can be posted at Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/Newsroom/Submissions. We thank the community for their suggestions to this date.
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NPOV dispute
... WHAT?
Ever heard of
I think it is very likely that the overwhelming majority of Wikipedia editors do indeed support Ukraine. But NPOV is a core policy, and our job as neutral editors is to report accurately what the reliable secondary sources say, not to cheerlead for one side. Taking sides in an armed conflict undermines our core mission, and this partisan piece should be promptly retracted.
And before anyone tries accusing me of being a Putin-apologist or similar, let me absolutely clear that I personally regard all invasions as criminals acts, including the current invasion of Ukraine. But as a Wikipedia editor, I set my views aside. My objection here is simply that Wikipedia is not the place to to take stands for or against what we regard as great wrongs.
I am horrified that those who create the Signpost have so flagrantly trampled over one of our core policies. Wikipedia is not a soapbox. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 21:00, 27 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Please, let's try to be as neutral as possible when writing encyclopedia article. Without of course making a false equivalence for distinctly minority view. But also let Signpostewrs, and all other Wikipedians express their opinions on these pages. Smallbones(smalltalk) 21:35, 27 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
This violation of Wikipedia's neutrality will give a boat-load of ammunition to detractors who claim that Wikipedia editors have a liberal agenda. Damage control time. Erase this article.Smallchief (talk) 22:08, 27 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
A reminder that
People who want to complain that Wikipedia has a "liberal bias" will do so regardless of what we say. We get accused all the time of failing to be "neutral" because we refuse to take a middle position between facts and nonsense. Oh, look, it's an
Placing absolute neutralism at one of the worst modern man-made militaristic catastrophies means siding with the aggressors. 1233 ( T / C) 07:20, 5 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The disclaimer
Thanks to @EpicPupper: for adding[2] a disclaimer to the top of the article, and for pinging me in the process.
The disclaimer is a indication of good intent, but only a tiny sign. And overall, I think it a major mistake.
Yes, it gives the rest of the community some theoretical deniability, which is welcome. However, that sort of disclaimer has at best a legalistic effect, being something that might sway the outcome if the matter even ended up in legal proceedings. But I see no possibility of any legal proceedings from any direction (and I hope that's how it is), so that effect is irrelevant.
The impact of a news article or op-ed is not measured in legal terms. Its impact is in how it is perceived publicly, by whatever audience sees it or hears about it. Those perceptions are not formed is the same way as the precise weighing of legal assessments and court judgements. Public perceptions are rough-and ready, often hasty and incomplete, and often driven by first impressions. These judgement are often more emotional than rational.
In the court of public opinion, you don't get to cross-examine the public or demand re-readings or argue over nuance or the small print of disclaimers. I worked for decades in political communication, and repeatedly saw how messaging rarely had any impact beyond the simple outline. That fact was used very powerfully by GW Bush's aide Karl Rove, whose dictum "If you're explaining you're losing" was the basis of a powerful political strategy of repeatedly forcing the opponent to explain, thereby making them repeatedly lose.
So it is in this case. Once you gotta explain the message's origin in the way that has been done here, you are losing. You are effectively conceding the point that the message is problematic, and hoping that the small print will rescue you ... but the small print has little impact.
The big picture is the simple one: an article hosted on en.wp's servers, with an en.wp URL, takes an unambiguously partisan stance on a major political issue, and has an unambiguously partisan headline. The rest is weaselly detail which most people will ignore.
Any campaigner or political operator opposed to Wikipedia will now be rubbing their hands with glee at how The Signpost has dug itself deeper into the mire, and handed a gift to its enemies. It would be very very simple to ruthlessly exploit this naive disclaimer as another tool to attack Wikipedia.
But I am not an opponent. I am a long-serving Wikipedian with huge devotion to this project, and I hate seeing Wikipedia weakened in this way.
The old rule is "when you're in a hole, stop digging". This disclaimer is just digging deeper into the hole. The remedy remains very simple: retract the op-ed, and replace it with a simple apology for taking a political stance which is way beyond the legitimate remit of a community newsletter. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 19:39, 28 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you
Thanks and congratulations to @
The new editorial is excellent. It is scrupulously neutral, expressing support for all those who have been adversely impacted by the war. It emphasises how we as Wikipedians continue to play a positive role by continuing what we have done for 21 years: providing free, impartial information for all. And it is both eloquent and concise.
There are many places on the internet and elsewhere where people can express their views on issues. Wikipedia is different: it is a project to provide impartial info to help others form their views, hopefully better-informed as a result of our work. Our greatest strengths in doing so are our transparency (we source everything, and keep our discussions public) and our commitment to neutrality. The revised editorial with its preceding explanation exemplifies both those core values.
Thank you to the editorial team collectively for responding to criticism, and rectifying an error. And again, I want to give special thanks to EpicPupper, whose grace under pressure has been an exemplary display of openness, civility, courtesy and integrity. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 20:26, 29 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia should be neutral. Signpost does not have to be. I am disappointed with the name change, which IMHO puts the wrong values forward. Which goes to show, you can't make everyone happy, no matter what you do. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 09:47, 30 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I’m not sure whether I’m more ashamed of the Signpost for giving in to such an obviousWP:1AM bad-faith badgering campaign or BHG for engaging in it. Dronebogus (talk) 16:31, 30 March 2022 (UTC)[reply ]
- Nah, who am I kidding. This is ENTIRELY BHG’s fault. Dronebogus (talk) 16:35, 30 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
bad faith is before you start throwing around "bad-faith badgering" accusations. - ZLEA T\C 17:02, 30 March 2022 (UTC)[reply ]
- Trainsandotherthings (talk) 17:48, 30 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- Don't kid yourself, BHG is the defintion of
WP:UNBLOCKABLE. Any new or IP user would have been indeffed long before this point. Starting five massive drama threads and arguing against consensus in all of them is far more disruptive than an editorial outside of article space. 65.205.200.226 (talk) 18:08, 30 March 2022 (UTC)[reply ]
- I haven't seen any personal attacks from BHG. In fact, she's been one of the more civil people here. If you disagree, please support your claims and show me some diffs of what you believe were personal attacks. - ZLEA T\C 20:56, 30 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- @Trainsandotherthings: please supply diffs to support your claims that I have made personal attacks, or retract your comments. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 21:39, 30 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- Look, I didn't want to spend an hour plus gathering up all the examples of why you've been disruptive and made personal attacks, but I refuse to submit to your usual tactics that you use to silence opposition. Here are your diffs, with full quotations as well. Let's begin, this is going to be quite long.
- [5]] Here, BHG is not only accusing Ed of acting in bad faith and of personal attacks, both patently false allegations, but making veiled personal attacks of her own. "I see no way in which a competent editor acting in good faith could equate those two things as you have done here." I'd like to point out that Ed actually spoke up in your defense about civility [[6]].
[- [7]] Here we see BHG again accusing her opponents of disrupting Wikipedia. Ironic, isn't it?
[- [8]] Here, BHG comes right out the gate accusing the Signpost team of acting in bad faith, along with an absurd demand that the Signpost team be sanctioned. Obviously, this was a ridiculous demand and no such sanctioning has occurred.
[- Thanks, @EpicPupper. So it seem that nobody within the Signpost team even thought it was worth discussing
- whether a blatantly partisan political stance was appropriate
- what the boundaries should be for political commentary on such a hot topic
- whether it was fair to assume that silence=consent when taking a political stance
- That is very alarming. (Did not use the tq template here as it was acting up) [9] This incredibly accusatory and inflammatory comment by BHG typifies her pattern of behavior. Endlessly accusing everyone of wrongdoing, heavily injecting her own POV, and taking things to extreme and ridiculous conclusions.
- [10]] Here, BHG accuses the closers of the MfD of being partisan. Here's a tip for you, BHG: if everyone else is partisan except you, maybe it's you who is the partisan.
[- [11] This one particularly bothers me. Oh no, Epicpupper has "only been here less than 2 years." This is a direct and entirely unjustified attack on his competence. I started here in July 2021, does that make me incompetent too? Just because you've been here a decade and a half doesn't mean that you're somehow better than other editors.
- [12] BHG falsely calls someone pointing out her extreme neutralism a "very nasty, vicious, and utterly false personal attack" and follows it up with more grandstanding about how truly terrible someone pointing out her POV is. You've been subject to real abuse before, BHG, so I'd hope you would know better than to conflate actual abuse with someone disagreeing with you.
- With regards to the bludgeoning, let's take a quick count of how many replies BHG has made in all the places she forum shopped. At the ANI thread, I count 34 messages from BHG, including the original filing. At the VPM discussion, another 41 comments by BHG. Add one more each for the DRV filing and the MfD filing. Add another 19 for this talk page. That's a total of 96 messages. Even if we subtract the necessary ones such as the filings, it's clear to see the sheer extent of BHG's bludgeoning and badgering that has been a consistent part of her behavior throughout this whole mess. You've created a real shitshow here, BHG, and as the IP editor said, any other editor would long have been blocked for this level of disruption. I could pull a dozen more examples of you being uncivil, disruptive, and otherwise misbehaving, but I'd like to get to sleep at a reasonable hour tonight. You have wasted so much community time with your crusade. You have shown flagrant disregard for consensus, fighting a
WP:1AM battle and refusing to even consider that consensus was against you, bludgeoning and badgering all opponents until they get tired of your endless accusations, bad-faith characterizations, and other unpleasantries. It's a quite effective strategy, as most people do not wish to spend as much time arguing on Wikipedia as you do. You wear people down until they give in because they want to get on with their lives and you will never stop, never compromise, never even consider you might ever be wrong about anything. This attitude is incompatible with Wikipedia. It disgusts me. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 01:53, 31 March 2022 (UTC)[reply ]
- You should probably take that to ANI, though you’re also likely to get a random boomerang from some annoyed admin who wants this to be over. Dronebogus (talk) 03:09, 31 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- If you do be sure to add forum shopping and
WP:POINT to the list per my evidence below. Dronebogus (talk) 03:11, 31 March 2022 (UTC)[reply ]
- @Trainsandotherthings: nothing in what you have posted is a personal attack by me on another editor. All are examples of me criticising the action(s) and comments of another editor, not their person ... and I suggest that you take this to ANI, where I will defend myself vigorously.
- The underlying logic of your complaint is nothing to do with the content of my responses. It is contine din your final paragraphs, where your write at length about your objection to the fact that I defend the substance of my complaint about the breach of neutrality. You quote Headbomb's phrase "extreme neutralism", and use it yourself.
- That is an extraordinary use of language. Partisanship comes in degrees, but neutrality doesn't. Neutral is simply the absence of partisanship, and either an article is neutral or it is not. Note that the phrase "extreme neutralism" is used repeatedly by an editor who repeatedly describe one party to the conflict as "abject evil". That is an appalling inversion of responsibility: adopt a hyperbolically partisan stance, but project the label of "extremism" onto someone asking for non-partisanship. Yet you are endorsing Headbomb's nasty game of smearing me as an "extremist" for rejecting ultra-partisanship.
- Look, NPOV is at heart quite simple: do not take sides. I find it extraordinary to watch the fury of those who who reject NPOV, and who try to invert reality by casting that neutrality as an "extreme" position. I remind you again that NPOV is the first item in the WMF's list of Founding principles, If you regard that principle as "extremist", then you should direct your fury at the WMF, not at me.
- I have said it elsewhere, and I repeat it: Neutrality is a the #1 Founding principle of WMF, and it is not up for debate or subject to being overruled by local consensus. I do not care how many partisan editors denounce me for upholding NPOV, or smear me (as you have done) with absurdities such as a bogus allegation of making a "personal attack" for noting[13] that the author's own account own account of the assessments of the Signpost editorial team makes no mention of a check for neutrality. Please stop your smear tactics. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 05:33, 31 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- By suggesting ANI you automatically tell every sane user “do not do this per
WP:DENY” because you are clearly looking for a fight. Dronebogus (talk) 05:37, 31 March 2022 (UTC)[reply ]
- @Dronebogus: no, I am not looking for fight. Quite the opposite.
- I am responding to editors like you who are looking for a fight, and I am asking you to take your fight to the proper venue for such complaints. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 06:02, 31 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- “those who create the Signpost have so flagrantly trampled over one of our core policies.” right at the top probably counts. Dronebogus (talk) 00:50, 31 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I couldn't agree more! When will you be giving BHG the same reminder?
Retraction
This retraction is horrible. The Signpost should not cave in to extreme neutralists. We should stand with Ukraine. This was not a violation of your "commitment to neutral coverage of the Wikimedia movement", but this retraction certainly is.b} 11:22, 1 April 2022 (UTC)[reply ]
Thank you
While some may disagree, I firmly believe that the retraction was for the best. Not only did you recognize that you made a mistake, but you openly admitted it and worked to fix it. These acts show that you are not afraid to do what's right, and they also show a level of competence beyond that of the average editor.
What's happening in Ukraine is criminal, but the Russians need to know what is going on, and that's not happening with Putin's media feeding them lies. When the largest newsletter on Wikipedia picks a side in the war, it gives the Russian government another excuse to block Wikipedia. Thank you for doing your part to prevent the last reliable source from being stripped from the Russian people. - ZLEA T\C 13:26, 1 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I will also say that it is not Wikipedia's place to take sides. I'm assuming that with
you are talking about the article space, since that was what I was talking about when I said . Therefore, I will remind you thatIt's the retraction that's not neutral
Throughout this sprawling debate, there has been one good point by BHG and the others objecting to this piece: the headline was confusing and kind of out of place. The current headline is better. The only other major difference between the current version and the original is a couple notes from the editors. One note hedges a bit -- fine, but unnecessary given the title change. The other, the retraction, repeats a line of argumentation that actually does give the impression of violating NPOV: that .
We do not remain "neutral in conflicts." We remain neutral by summarizing what reliable sources say about conflicts. That's what neutrality is on Wikipedia. Neutrality isn't reducing reality into a one-size-fits-all A-versus-B dynamic so we can stake out some hypothetical middle ground. When one country, in an act of aggression, invades another under false pretenses, we describe it as such. Our neutrality is plainly visible in the way our articles about the invasion summarize reliable sources on the topic. It's for this reason that the loudly repeated accusations of "partisanship" stand out to me: either we've contrived some false balance/both sides scenario or...
NPOV doesn't apply to projectspace, but what we say about neutrality in projectspace matters (it's where