Talk:Evangelos Zappas

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Good articleEvangelos Zappas has been listed as one of the Sports and recreation good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
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Founder of the Olympic Games

As noted in

Kimon 19:30, 19 February 2007 (UTC)[reply
]

Note: I'm not arguing the notability of the person, just the text in the article. --
Kimon 19:31, 19 February 2007 (UTC)[reply
]
Cripes, I look away for a few months and the article gets infested with POV-pushing. [1] was one of the sources I used in creating the article (original text: [2]), along with a page at athens2004.net which is now offline. It's still a good source, and draws the distinction between the Zappian Olympic Games founded by Zappas and the current incarnation of the Olympics. The Games of Zappas pre-dated Coubertin's Games and were an inspiration for him, but the Zappian Games folded after 1875. The modern Olympic Games run by the IOC are a different set of Olympic Games. -- Jonel | Speak 23:15, 19 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The older edit is a lot better and definitely NPOV. I propose reverting it to that version. If there are no objections, I'll do it. --
Kimon 01:28, 20 February 2007 (UTC)[reply
]
Actually there are plenty of references to back up the fact that Zappas funded the first modern international Olympic Games. If you don't look you don't find. Nipsonanomhmata 15:30, 5 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I think that the "Olympics through Time" source reference should be deleted. The information is second or third hand. It adds nothing that isn't already in the other sources which are original source references. Nipsonanomhmata 15:30, 5 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
It isn't right to say that the Zappas Olympic Games "folded". Zappas did not just sponsor Olympic Games and he left more than enough money in his legacy to keep the Games going for a very long time. Zappas provided an infrastructure that was used in 1870, 1875, 1896, 1906, and 2004. Nobody else has provided infrastructure for the Olympic Games with such longevity. Describing what Zappas did as having "folded" is short-sighted since the Panathenian stadium has not folded and neither has the Zappeion. In fact, the Olympic Games are still going and the IOC has used Zappas' infrastructure twice since 1896. The Zappeion was used as the Olympic media center in 2004. Clearly, if it "folded", it's been unfolded and reused. Nipsonanomhmata 15:48, 5 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Greek ancestry? Or Albanian?

I asked a citation for his greek ancestry, but nothing is available online. The Zhapa family is Albanian according to some Albanian sources. I really want to believe that the Zhapa were greeks, but there are so many Zhapa family names in Albania and I really don't know any greeks with the Zappas last name, that I really don't know if we are saying the truth here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sulmues (talk • contribs) 18:00, 28 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I've provided 5 'rs', saying that he was born Greek in a Greek village by Greek family. About the name, that's really interesting but still dont see the point on that here. I've checked also Zappas testament which is avaible online, he states clear that he is Greek without leaving doupts.Alexikoua (talk) 20:27, 28 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Alexikoua are you kidding me? He had the choice of either stating: 

1. - I am a Greek
2. - I am a Turk

As we both know that Albania did not exist at his time of death, hence he could not have the nationality of a country that did not exist yet. Anyways I'll have to bring some references that he is more likely to have been Albanian. I know pretty well Labova and there are no greeks there, that's for sureSulmues (talk--Sulmues 21:18, 28 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The Greek/Turk dillema is irrelevant since he lived in Romania after the end of the Greek Revolution.Alexikoua (talk) 21:50, 28 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

So you are proposing the Romanian/Greek dilemma? Solved by Evangelis as "Greek"? Again, he didn't have the option of giving himself the "Albanian" nationality, because such nationality did not exist at the time. Sulmues (talk --Sulmues 22:30, 28 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I suggest not to ignore 'rs' material. You are confusing nationality with ethnicity, and Albanian ethnicity, existed that time.Alexikoua (talk) 05:42, 29 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I personally am very skeptical about his ethnicity. My impression is that the Labovits have been exclusively Albanians in 1800 (and still are), however they would speak Greek pretty well as a second language since (1) it was the language of the church (2) many of them had emigrated in Greece to conduct better business (3) it was the language of many business activities. In addition, people would usually go to Greek schools organized by the Church, so they knew Greek pretty well since it was taught since their childhood. Now saying that the labovits were Greeks is going the extralength: speaking Greek as a second language does not make you a Greek and I can assure you that I know Labova pretty well. It would be the equivalent of saying that half of the Albanians today are Italian because they watch the Italian television so much that they know Italian as a second language at an impressive quality! Dr. Fedhon Meksi, great, great, great, great nephew of Vangjel Meksi teaches us that the Zhapas were grecophiles, and the Meksi clan were Albanofiles, but none of them are greek (see here [3])! Another more scholarly source [4] simply tells us that Vangjel Zhapa was a rich Albanian. If we start confronting sources we'll be soon edit warring, so the talk page is where we should reach consensus. Simply put, the sources that are currently in the article are not giving sufficient information, actually they are not giving no information at all, because they are not verifiable. Since we're at it, I also disagree with you saying that he Zappa is from Northern Epirus. He was born in the what was called Pashalik of Yanina: Northern Epirus came into existance as a political region only in 1914 when he had already died, hence I disagree with your revert. Could we please discuss? You are saying that the sources say he was from Northern Epirus, but I don't see those sources. Could you please bring them to the talk page? Btw you deleted two sources in the Pashalik of Yanina article [5] because they were not verifyable, but your sources that are here about his origin are not verifiable either and you are relying on them to show that Zappa was from Northern Epirus. I have one more reference ([6], see page 9/19) that says:

Austrian travellers who visited Lunxhëri,most of them arriving from Ioannina, described the Lunxhots as Albanian-speaking Orthodox Christians, and had the feeling that, starting north of Delvinaki, they were entering another country, although the political border did not exist at the time. Greek was not spoken as it was further south; there was a change in the way of life and manners of the peasants. As one traveller reported Hobhouse 1813:

Every appearance announced to us that we were now in a more populous country. (...) the plain was every where cultivated, and not only on the side of Argyro-castro [Gjirokastër]… but also on the hills which we were traversing, many villages were to be seen. The dress of the peasants was now changed from the loose woollen brogues of the Greeks, to the cotton kamisa, or kilt of the Albanian, and in saluting Vasilly they no longer spoke Greek. Indeed you should be informed, that a notion prevails amongst the people of the country, that Albania, properly so called, or at least, the native country of the Albanians, begins from the town of Delvinaki; but never being able, as I have before hinted, to learn where the line of boundary is to be traced, I shall content myself with noticing the distinction in the above cursory manner. In this place [Qestorat, in Lunxhëri] everything was on a very different footing from what it had been in the Greek villages. We experienced a great deal of kindness and attention from our host; but saw nothing in his face (though he was a Christian) of the cringing, downcast, timid look of the Greek peasant. His cottage was neatly plastered, and white-washed, and contained a stable and small ware-room below, and two floored chambers above, quite in a different style from what we had seen in Lower Albania. It might certainly be called comfortable; and in it we passed a better night than any since our departure from Ioannina.

Still think that

Labova has alwasy been Albanian, but also Qestorat that has historically been more filogreek and from where Georgios Christakis-Zografos
was, seems to be 100% Albanian according to this impartial British traveller. Sulmues (talk --Sulmues 01:16, 9 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

What I can conclude is that the entire english speaking bibliography, without any

wp:synth exaggerations clearly says that he was ethnic Greek, no matter if the villages in his homeland were of mixed ethnicity. What I see is that Zappas was a Greek nationalist and partiot [[7]], (his testament [[8]]). I inform you that the source you brought talks about 'fluid' identities in southern Albania [[9]
] and not of a racial purity

Moreover, read about

Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is in order to see how wiki operates..Alexikoua (talk) 07:30, 9 February 2010 (UTC)[reply
]

Hm, from the two references that you brought: Golden, the first one, is saying that Zappas was born in Greece, so he seems to be ill-informed as Greece did not exist at that time. We all agree that he spent all his life for Greece only, but we are discussing his ethnicity, which is still open to be proved. The testament: gotta download that rar thingie but now don't have the time. As soon as I do I'll submit it to google translator. Now, the Austrian traveller clearly says:

they no longer spoke Greek

which is no "fluid identity" to me. Sulmues (talk--Sulmues 21:30, 9 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Your quest to prove the region's racial purity reminds me on some tottalitarian practices and does not touch me. Alexikoua (talk) 06:15, 10 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree and I will ask for a third opinion. Sulmues (talk--Sulmues 22:06, 12 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The article has been already peer reviewed.Alexikoua (talk) 20:31, 12 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I am going to add to this article the Albanian taskforce project. Vangjel Zhapa is Albanian and I provided above lots of sources. And I could continue. One thing at a time. Sulmues (talk--Sulmues 22:06, 12 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Unfortunately you provided nothing, apart from two nationalistic sources that are pov by sight [[10]]([[11]] a Albanian 1960s one). This article has nothing to do with tf:Albania. Why dont you try your luck with Napoleon Bonaparte? You said you have several sources that confirm his Albanian origin [[12]]. You might be more lucky there.Alexikoua (talk) 22:27, 12 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Do you like this? [13]Sulmues (talk--Sulmues 06:26, 14 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I understand why you are pushing this argument and trying to find any reference that might give your POV any glimmer of hope but it genuinely is pointless. The parents of Evangelis Zappas were Greek. He fought in the Greek War of Independence because he was a proud Greek patriot. He was the aide-de-camp of some of the greatest Greek heroes of the Greek War of Independence. He sponsored the building of Greek Orthodox Churches that conducted services in the Greek language. He founded schools that taught the Greek language. The guy was so proud to be Greek that he bought the ancient Panathenian stadium to guarantee its future and refurbished it to host the Olympic Games for all time. One of his most important friends was Panagiotis Soutsos a Greek newspaper editor who wrote a glowing report about Zappas in his Helios newspaper calling him the greatest Greek hero of modern times. Trying to claim that Zappas was anything other than Greek is clearly an effort to massage history for political self-interests. It's just not worth pushing that POV. I appreciate your entertaining efforts. Nipsonanomhmata (talk) 03:23, 6 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think you know the history of the 19th century of Southern Albania very well. The Lunxheri region had suffered for 4 centuries the muslim Albanians stealing their land. With the establishment of Greece and the independence from Turkey, they would become not only Greeks but also Sudanese, just to have the freedom from the Turks. Most of the Lunxhots were emigrants for generations because of the poor resources of Lunxheri. The whole Lunxheri region was 100% Albanian, and the only reason why they spoke Greek was because of the Church schools, which could teach Greek, based on agreement that the Phanariot Patriarchate of Constantinople had stipulated with the Higher Porte, while the Albanian language could not be taught, nor was an Albanian Autocephalous Orthodox Church formed yet. Zhapa opened a Greek school because it was impossible to open an Albanian school. The Zhapa were Albanians and I know the Labove village quite well personally, so please don't lecture me on things that I know. --sulmues (talk) 03:48, 6 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
His testament is here [[14]], and confirms what the current article describes. Just for the news, Greek officials and the Zappeion institute initiated the renovation of Zappas mansion in Labovo and the old school, since it was completely neglected by the local authorities.Alexikoua (talk) 10:21, 6 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Pandelis Sotiris (1843–1891), a Greek, founded the first Albanian language school in Korçë (1887). But Evangelis Zappas was founding Greek language schools. Nipsonanomhmata (talk) 00:52, 8 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

[Moving the tabs over to the left so that we use up less space and starting a new heading.] Nipsonanomhmata (talk) 00:43, 8 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Evangelis Zappas was Unquestionably Greek

You failed to mention the Greek War of Independence and the Panathenian stadium. Are you going to tell me that it was actually the Albanian War of Independence and that Panathenian is a common Albanian surname too? Are you going to claim that his shares in the Greek Steamship company were Albanian? Why did he leave his vast fortune for the re-establishment of the Olympic Games in Athens in Greece? If he were as Albanian, as you say he is, then why didn't he build a stadium where he was born. Why didn't he appoint any Albanians in the first all-Greek Olympic Committee? If he were an Albanian as you suggest, which he was not, what an incredibly stupid Albanian he must have been who was prepared to die for the liberation of Greece, was building schools to spread the Greek language in foreign countries, and Greek churches in foreign countries. Why did he build the Zappeion and why is it the National Exhibition Centre of Greece? A man who cared so much for Greek Independence, the Greek language, the Greek Orthodox Church, re-establishing the Olympic Games could not possibly be Albanian. Most notably his behaviour was the exact opposite of your behaviour on WP. Evangelis Zappas is a Greek national hero. There is no Zappeion in Albania or Romania. He had his head and his wallet buried in Greece. Albania got his bones (excluding his skull). All Romania got was his flesh. Evangelos and Zappas are Greek names too. Evangelio means "gospel" and Zappas is a Greek name too. Only nobody had to change the name to make it Greek. The name was Greek all along. And ofcourse, Albania didn't exist at the time. He was born in Ottoman-occupied north-western Greece in a corner of what once was a part of the Byzantine Empire. The word "Hellene" is used by all Greek-speakers from all the ancient peoples of Greece. He was a "Hellene", he was a Greek-speaker, he was proud to be a Hellene and he showed it in many ways. His behaviour was exactly the opposite of yours (since you are doing everything in your power to change Greek history in to Albanian history). You cannot call him Albanian in retrospect. He wasn't born in Albania. His people were Hellenes not Albanians. If you want to call him an Epirote. That's ok with me. Epirotes are Greek. But are you so desperate you need to recruit a Greek patriot and hero in to your cause. Nipsonanomhmata (talk) 00:44, 8 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Unquestionably Greek because he contributed to Greece? Hmm well, first, I'm afraid YOU are trying to turn what was an Albanian personality into a Greek one, and the examples of this typical Greek behavior are literally countless because, it's fairly clear even to a blind that in all wiki articles concerning Albanians and Arvanites, you're making a titanic effort to deny the Albanian roots of every Arvanite/Albanian personality that is somehow linked to your country's history. I personally think that you just don't tolerate the idea that your country's modern history is UNQUESTIONABLY and INDISSOLUBLY linked to the Arvanites. That's understandable..but it just doesn't change reality! Second, when will you Greek finally understand that the fact that someone contributes to or dies for your (or any) country DOES NOT MEAN he belongs to your country or ethnos? Because, according to this exquisitely idiotic logic, which reminds me of the father of the funny Greek spinster in My Big Fat Greek Wedding who even made the kimono Greek, lord Byron who fought and died in the Greek war of independence was Greek! And so should be all the philanthropists or foreign fighters who have contributed to or fought for other countries and have embraced other people's causes, for that matter. The English, Germans, Italians, Brazilians etc who fought in the Spanish Civil War were perhaps Spaniards?? What about the mercenaries, political personalities, inventors, scientists etc, contributing throughout history to nations different from their own? Tesla was American or Serbian? Why is he considered Serbian then when EVERYTHING he did was linked to and created on American soil? What nationality is Che Guevara? Cuban? Bolivian? It depends on who he fought for right? Was Marko Boçari Greek because he fought for Greece?? Who else was he supposed to fight for considering that he was part of the IMMENSE Arvanite community who made up the majority of the population of Greece of that time?? Who were the Arvanite leaders of your War of Independence supposed to fight for considering they were the (major) population of Greece (according to Turkish defters)?? The Arvanite personalities who made MAJOR contributions to the birth of the Greek states, its education system, economy and politics did it as INHABITANTS or citizens of that country, as a MINORITY COMMUNITY of that country. Simple as that! Zhapa (which means skin in Albanian) was an inhabitant of Greece and contributed to this community. That's a normal respectful bevaior, this is what every immigrant in a country would do in sign of gratitude and why not, love! Just as many Arvanites before him, also this Albanian gave his contribution to the Greek, he couldn't have done otherwise considering the delicate and extreme fragile situation of his Albanian fatherland. He can be called a Greek citizen yes, but CANNOT be denied his roots and ethnicity. Robert De Niro and Al Pacino are Americans yes, but they are ITALIAN-American (De Niro said Arbëresh in an interview, doesn't matter) and there's no way someone can deny this!! You can keep playing with the words racism to your advantage as much as you want, you've always profiteered from this, but Albanians base the national identity on blood and ethnicity (just like many other people), not culture!! You just have to accept that cause keep denying it by counterposing your personal Greek view on nationality is useless and quite self-delusional. It's just illogical and utterly stupid (not to mention chauvinistic) to deny someone's roots. The Arbëresh personality of Italy who made lots of contributions to the Italian state were Italians?? Yes but do Italians deny Antonio Gramsci's, Francesco Crispi's etc origins? Or did they deny their own roots? No they don't and no they didn't, only you Greeks deny other people's origins and you're very aware of the why, I'm afraid!!! Etimo (talk) 17:16, 20 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

again

If someone has something (serious) to say about Zappas being related with Albania, suppose he should initiated a discussion here. Since he is irrelevant with Albania, I've removed the bot-added wpsq.Alexikoua (talk) 18:54, 23 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

According to the following sources he was Albanian:

Above, I had entered sources that the whole village of Labove at the time of Zhapa, Rapper, p.9 was Albanian. I interrupted the talk earlier because a user who called Pandeli Sotiri a Greek and insulted me continuously interrupted a discussion. Now that user has a ban on the Balkans. --Sulmues (talk) 19:04, 23 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Please stop misusing Rapper, he says NOTHING about him being Albanian. Also about Clayer you have been instructed by Fut. that he does NOT say that (see Greek-Albanian cooperation board). You don't believe that Pristina&Islami tow stalinist period Albanian sources re rs right? Alexikoua (talk) 19:41, 23 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Even the Prishtina article doesn't seem to claim that he was Albanian; from what I can make out, it only refers to him donating wheat to the city of Bucharest. Constantine ✍ 20:03, 23 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Clayer clearly says "orthodoxes fortune' d'origine Albanaise". Check again in p. 201 [15]. The Prishtina article is called Gjurmime Albanologjike, Albanological Research and speaks about the Albanians. There is a book Labova nder Shekuj, [16], that would clarify this, but then I get the wp:fringe for everything that is not inline. The proposed move that you have is a sign that he's not Greek, because you guys can't even get to decide what his name was in Greek. In Albanian it is Vangjel Zhapa. --Sulmues (talk) 21:18, 23 July 2010 (UTC) Now I have to add something else: Saying, like Alexikoua does, that books published in communist Albania aren't reliable, are the equivalent of me saying that books published in a capitalistic country aren't reliable because their writers are brainwashed, because their brains are submerged by the heavy advertising of soft drinks, which with their high sugar and sodium content, potentially further damage their brains, but I wouldn't say that, because it is highly disputable. Alexi, I would invite you to refrain from commenting on things that you barely know. In communist Albania there were excellent publications, and there were some bad ones, as would happen anywhere, even in modern Greece now. Saying that a book was published in a communist country therefore not reliable is pure madness. --Sulmues (talk) 21:26, 23 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"The proposed move that you have is a sign that he's not Greek, because you guys can't even get to decide what his name was in Greek" is that supposed to be a serious argument? Or the fact that there is an Albanian version of his name? Was Aristotle perhaps English, because there is an English version of his name? And regardless of what the journal is called, there is no evidence that a) Zappas is called an Albanian there and b) the journal speaks only about Albanians, so that everyone mentioned in it must be an Albanian (perhaps Bucharest is an Albanian city by the same reasoning?). Sorry for the heavy dose of sarcasm, but this is a very very low-level argument...Re the "d'origine albanaise", it appears a good enough source, although I don't know what reservations Fut raised, so I'll hold out on this until someone kindly points me to them. Constantine ✍ 21:40, 23 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Fut's comments: [[17]]. Alexikoua (talk) 21:54, 23 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It's ok if you are sarcastic, no harm done. This is supposed to be FPS input on this article, and I can't see anything he says on Clayer. --Sulmues (talk) 21:46, 23 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Hmmm, upon a second viewing, there is a problem here: "orthodoxes d'origine albanaise" is not the same as "Albanians who are of the Orthodox faith". All it means is "Orthodox people from Albania", it does not directly state any Albanian self-identification. Quite the contrary, in fact, for in Ottoman times Orthodox=Greek (well, almost). Zappas may have had an interest in the codification and spread of the Albanian language, but I would hesitate to call him an Albanian without major qualifications based only on this one source. And along comes the source provided by Zjarri, which states that his parents were Greek-speaking. "Greek-speaking"+"Orthodox" means pretty conclusively "Greek", and this squares with most of his life's work. Constantine ✍ 22:03, 23 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Clayer uses "Orthodox" in the modern sense, but even if she used it in the context of early 19th century, there were plenty of Orthodox Albanians at that time, so Orthodox is not equal to Greek. This would be a Venizelos like move who went to the Peace Conference in Paris in 1919 claiming 120k Greeks in Albania, even if we very well know that he was counting all the Orthodox Albanians as Greeks. If Venizelos had been right, how come we have 600,000 Albanian Orthodoxes now? Since sources disagree I think it should be mentioned in the article that some scholars think that he was of Albanian origin. --Sulmues (talk) 22:25, 23 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, that is why I added the "almost". The fact is, up to ca. 1840 almost any Orthodox who received an education was hellenized. Either way however, Zjarri's own source points to his family being Greek-speaking. I really don't see how "Albanian" in the sense of belonging to the Albanian ethnos can be sustained here. Constantine ✍ 22:39, 23 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

the usual...zappas came from an albanianspeaking village (but i dont know if his family were vlach or greek speaking) but he clearly wasn't 'albanian'87.202.35.131 (talk) 04:19, 24 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed move

Evangelis Zappas

Evangelis was the exact name he used (it's also the preferred name form of Evangelos in Epirus). This is obvious in various inscriptions: in his statue in front of Zappeion and his crypt (and also according to his testament) .Alexikoua (talk) 20:17, 23 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Albanian language is irrelevant here, so I see no serious argument to change something.Alexikoua (talk) 22:23, 23 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Albanian language to someone who would examine this linguistically is very relevant but of course not all have the the knowledge to do such a thing which leads to common errors like your "preferred names" statement.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 23:02, 23 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I would appreciate if you stop with the trolling comments this time.Alexikoua (talk) 06:58, 24 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per Alexikoua.
    talk) 22:45, 23 July 2010 (UTC)[reply
    ]

Source

I can foresee that this source will be denied because it would not qualify as a reliable source [18], however it has links to many works on Vangjel Zhapa from Vangjel Meksi, Qirjako Hila, Thanas Hoda, Thanas Meksi, Ilir Kontini, Agron Alibali, Fedhon Meksi, Filip Boga, Koço Toti, Dhimo Mali, Fejzi Hoxha, and Foto Toti. It also links how Vangjel Meksi was for full 5 years his master of popular medicine when he went to Janina (from when he was 13 years old until he became 18). He learned from Meksi the folk physician profession. In addition it contains valuable info on the lawsuit for his $800M wealth left in Istanbul, which was eventually pocketed by the Greek government in 1960 through the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople--Sulmues (talk) 04:39, 5 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Fedhon! A classical Albanian name!
Sulmues, please realise that Mussolini and Hoxha period is over. Half of the people you display above are national Greeks. --Euzen (talk) 18:13, 22 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Greek or Vlach?

Hello, was Zappas Greek or Vlach? Because somewhere is that he was Vlach, so i wonder to know it, because i know that his village is not in vlachophone part of Albania. Thanks.--213.151.217.149 (talk) 10:37, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Greek AND Vlach. In case that you are not aware, "Vlach" is a lingual minority and not an ethnicity. Vlach language, or Aromunic, is a Latin language. Different ethnicities speak Vlach, mainly Greeks, Romanians, other Slavs and Albanians. See Vlachs for more. As for his nationality, just see were he spent his money as a National Benefactor.

Btw, what is that funny touristic "reference" (no 2) about "Greek-Romanian"? Needs correction to "Greek Vlach".--Euzen (talk) 17:49, 22 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • I know Vlachs im Greek, but I just wonder to know what was his language or origin, I know that this region wasnt vlachophonic, but some people make him Vlach.--213.151.217.151 (talk) 19:56, 4 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

1888/9 Games

Numerous publications incorrectly claim that an event held in 1888 (that was neither sponsored by Evangelis Zappas or formally organised by the Olympic Committee that organised the 1859, 1870 and 1875 Olympic Games) was one of the Olympic Games sponsored by Zappas. The 1888 event was held at a gymnasium that was built from the Zappas legacy. The event was organised by an individual and the event did not resemble Olympic Games in any way, shape or form. All those who categorise the 1888 event as an Olympic event are very much mistaken.

Cut and paste from Wikipedia: "After an extended period of litigation between the Greek government and a group of Zappas' relatives over Zappas' bequests, Konstantinos Zappas secured the execution of Zappas' will. The Greek government used Zappas' money to complete the Gymnasterion, a central gym, in 1878, and to continue the work on the Zappeion exhibition center, which had begun in 1873 and was frequently interrupted ... As in 1875, Fokianos took charge of the sporting events (but did so independently of the earlier Olympic Committee), which were postponed up till April 30, 1889. These Games were not co-ordinated by the Olympic Committee that organised the 1859, 1870, and 1875 Zappas Games, but by Fokianos alone. Thirty athletes competed in a variety of disciplines including discus, pole long leap (over a ditch), weightlifting, mast climbing, and rope climbing among others. All participants were clad alike.[2]

In 1890, a royal decree, signed by Crown Prince Constantine and the foreign minister Stephanos Dragoumis, announced that the Olympiad would be reinstated, at four-year intervals, from 1888. The next Olympics were officially planned for 1892, but did not take place due to the Greek government's claim of lack of funding.[23] In the event, the Panathenaic stadium would be used to stage the Olympic Games in 1896, the first to be held under the auspices of the International Olympic Committee.[2]" Nipsonanomhmata (talk) 02:23, 1 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Removal of sourced content

I am going to revert to my last version. The content is sourced, and I don't think the edits are that controversial! Majuru (talk) 22:38, 25 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Your sources are unreliable and one heavily outdated. www.fedhonmeksi.com? Kosmas Thesprotos from the early 19th century? Forget it. You are a long time user, you know full well by now that we don't use sources like these in wikipedia.
talk) 22:49, 25 January 2012 (UTC)[reply
]
I don't think it's outdated, Thesprotos was published in 1964. Majuru (talk) 18:58, 27 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I've checked Thesprotos, he is talking about another village, the one next to Libohova, Labova e Kryqit (of the cross), Zappas was born in Labova e Madhe (Great Labovo). Anyway, Thesprotos was a 19th century scholar, in general we prefer 20th century bibliography (For example Hammond says that Labova e Kryqit is bilingual) Alexikoua (talk) 21:44, 27 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]


Aromanian origin

@Zoupan: You don't like his Aromanian origin so you deleted it.Don't continue with your childish anti-Aromanian ideas.Rolandi+ (talk) 09:10, 31 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The specific reference indeed mentions that he was of Vlach origin, nevertheless I can't verify this posibility from additional material. I would have no objection to add this inside, but there is a lack of an inline citation to check where is this taken from, not to mention that a work titled "History of Greece" is a tertiary (of general nature) source, that should be treated per
Wikipedia:Use of tertiary sources.Alexikoua (talk) 11:07, 2 September 2015 (UTC)[reply
]

These:[1] [2] [3] tell the truth.Rolandi+ (talk) 12:32, 2 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Elaine Thomopoulos. The History of Greece. p. 85. Finally,Evangelis Zappas,a Vlach by descent,took the idea and ran with it,paving the way for the modern Olympics.
  2. ^ Pericles Smerlas. About Greece. Some of the biggest national benefactors and personalities of the Greek history belong to Vlach families, like Pavlos Melas, Evangelos and Konstantinos Zappas, Stefanos and Ion.
  3. ^ Ioannis Kaphetzopoulos. The struggle for Northern Epirus. p. 21. Kolletes and Spyridon Lampros were Vlachs.So were the great national benefactors George Averoff,Nicolaos Stournares,Tositsas,Sinas,Evangelos and Konstantions Zappas...
The last work is clearly a secondary source. Thus, it appears this possibility is well supported.Alexikoua (talk) 20:20, 2 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The above sources would normally be good additions to the article if they weren't general survey sources that briefly mention Evangelos Zappas and the formation of the modern Olympics. Kaphetzopoulos, for example, focuses on the history of Northern Epirus and only lists the names of "Vlachs" (i.e., Aromanian-speaking Greeks) who contributed to Greece including Evangelos Zappas (Kaphetzopoulos, however, provides no details about the modern Olympics or even about Zappas's historic role in their development). As for Thomopoulos and Smerlas, they only provide a summary of Greek history with no references to primary or even secondary sources (no way to confirm where they're getting their information from). I don't really mind including an Aromanian origin for Zappas, but such an origin is technically fringe since mainstream scholars who've studied the modern Olympics (i.e., Brownell, Decker, Gerlach, Hill, Landry, Landry, Yerlès, etc.) have already determined that Evangelos Zappas was a Greek. Umpire Empire (talk) 20:24, 2 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]


Vlachs are not Aromanian-speaking Greeks.Don't believe every lie you hear in the Greek media.Also don't delete the Vlach origin anymore.Who said that mainstream scholars claims he was greek?Rolandi+ (talk) 08:18, 3 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Rolandi+: Now I am anti-Aromanian? And you still claim to have the intention to show "the truth"... I am not against inclusion if reliably supported as already said.--Zoupan 05:05, 4 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@
WP:FRINGE. So I kindly ask that you stop adding fringe nonsense and read the quality mainstream sources already in the article (i.e., Brownell, Decker, Gerlach, Hill, Landry, Landry, Yerlès) all of which describe and classify Evangelos Zappas as a Greek. Umpire Empire (talk) 23:04, 8 September 2015 (UTC)[reply
]

@Umpire Empire: Can you prove that the Aromanian origin is fringe? If not stop deleting it.Rolandi+ (talk) 08:40, 9 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@
WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT). Umpire Empire (talk) 22:20, 22 September 2015 (UTC)[reply
]

@Umpire Empire: You are more ignorant that I expected.Wikipedia's rules makes it clear that one theory will be included if it isn't proved it is fringe.So stop and this is the last time I say this to you.There are reliable sources for the Aromanian origin and it will be added.Rolandi+ (talk) 14:58, 23 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@

you're not here to build an encyclopedia. Umpire Empire (talk) 17:49, 23 September 2015 (UTC)[reply
]

@Umpire Empire: Yes,you are ignorant of Wikipedia's rules.You can't delete well-sourced infos only because you believe your sources are "better" or "more reliable".Rolandi+ (talk) 18:39, 23 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Yes there are three sources supporting the Aromanian origin so it will be added.Rolandi+ (talk) 07:14, 4 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Ronaldi+:. Zappas was from Lunxheri. He comes from a Albanian speaking area and choose to identify as a Greek like some of the Orthodox Albanians speakers have done and still do for various reasons. Some financial etc etc. For sources on Lunxheri and identity complexities see De Rapper, Gilles. "‘We are not Greek, but…’: dealing with the Greek–Albanian border among the Albanian-speaking Christians of Southern Albania." Southeast European and Black Sea Studies 4.1 (2004): 162-174. link : https://halshs.archives-ouvertes.fr/halshs-00165759/document Resnjari (talk) 18:38, 22 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Claiming that Zappas might belong to an Albanian Orthodox community is nothing more that extreme national obsession. I wonder if he understood Albanian.Alexikoua (talk) 19:19, 22 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Misinterpreted what i meant by that. He was born in a traditionally Albanian speaking area and is identified as such even in the Ali Pasha days, by De Rapper who has looked at the sources. As my comments above state Zappas identified as a Greek. Just like Zografis did as well. I made no claim that he was Albanian. i posted that article for Rolandi to read because Gilles De Rapper is a anthropologist, has no axe to grind, has importantly done fieldwork and treated the sources with care and without prejudice and is peer reviewed. Unless all in here just want to keep going around in circles and get no where well that fine. Orthodox Albanian speakers from the elite level began identifying as Greek early in the nineteenth century and the rest of the population as time went on. Scholar from a Greek background have alluded to this in recent times. Its not a "extreme national obsession". Actually regarding Zappas this is what Skoulidas says (see journal article The Albanian Greek-Orthodox Intellectuals, Aspects of their Discourse between Albanian and Greek National Narratives (late 19th - early 20th centuries link: http://www.chronosmag.eu/index.php/eskoulidas-the-albanian-greek-orthodox-intellectuals.html):
"At the same period, two wealthy persons Evangelos Zappas, from Labova e Madhe /Mega Lambovo (with a letter to Elpis), and Hristaki Zografo from Qestorat/Kestorati, another village from Lunxhëri, proposed the use of an alphabet with Greek characters. To understand the mentalities, it wasn’t a problem for Hristaki Zografo to promote the teaching of the Albanian language at elementary or primary schools and at the same time to be the president of the Epirotic Syllogue ( Ηπειρωτικός Σύλλογος) in Istanbul for the expansion of the Greek educational network in the Ottoman Empire."
So Zappas at the very least was involved in a conversation about writing Albanian quite early on. but he felt Greek. Skoulidas has also written another article of the changing dynamics of identities in Epirus in the nineteenth century. Some Orthodox Albanian speakers had both and Albanian identity and a Greek one like linguist Nikolaos Konemenos (cited in the article) from the Lakka Soutli area. See: Elias G Skoulidas. Identities, Locality and Otherness in Epirus during the Late Ottoman period.(doc). European Society of Modern Greek studies.
So Alexikoua, its no national obsession. New research by Greek scholarship is pointing these complicate details out. I always take Greek scholarship into account these days before the Albanian. Albanian scholarship often lacks the means to carry out extensive research like this. Though there are some scholars who are good. Nonetheless, its not a national obsession.Resnjari (talk) 01:34, 23 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I'm afraid you are still into extreme
Yianis Vilaras, Ali Pasha's doctor, was also involved in the issue of Albanian literature (per Elsie). Indeed some scholars are good, but none of them claims this national nonsense. As far I know Zappas intented to sponsor an Albanian initiative (by the Bucharest diaspora), but as soon he realized that this was against the interests of his own ethnic group he immediatelly dismissed it (that is what Skoulidas states verbally taken).Alexikoua (talk) 07:46, 23 October 2015 (UTC)[reply
]
Skoulidas' article is about Albanian Orthodox intellectuals. Not about people who were Greek speakers or with a sole identity like that or the other that had an interest in conceiving of an Albanian alphabet. Skoulidas looks at people who were between both Albanian speaking and Greek speaking and identifying with worlds. I did not write the article. He did and his email is out there somewhere at some Greek university website. Ask him as to why he thought Zappas was included. I posted a link to the whole article. Have a read. People being between language or identities are not new. For example there is in Turkey a sizable ammount of Greek speaking Turks. They are not Greeks and never identify as Greeks, yet they speak Greek and call it Romieka. The above source i placed are to show the complexities involved in the area from where Zappas is from. That is all. I have said he identified as a Greek. As for "fictional Albanian massacres", information still has not been provided as to what happened to those Albanian Muslim people who sought refugee at Tripolitsa from Vardounia. Its the defenders who left. Its a open ended question on the civilians.Resnjari (talk) 00:09, 24 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
It's obvious that Skoulidas' article is focused on Albanian Orthodox intelectuals, but it's weird when someone assumes that every person mentioned in this work is ethnic Albanian. Thus, according to this scientific approach, you made Albanians a number of important personalities such as Anastasios Sakellarios, Konstantinos Assopios and Hristos Hristovassilis (all of them from Epirus & the 2 first teachers of the Zosimaia). I'm afraid that something is problematic with the quality of your arguments.Alexikoua (talk) 12:34, 24 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Skoulidas wrote: "He was Anastasios Sakellarios’ and Constantin Assopios’ student." "and even the young Hristos Hristovassilis, the son of a Greek notable was confused if Ellinopoulo was something different from Romioi or Graikoi."
Regarding the first, Skoulidas was writing about the context of of Anastasios' Pykios life and who he studied under. Beyond that those people are not cited as doing anything regarding Albanian activities such as language discussions etc. The second is in referance to a Greek speaker, and Skouliadas outlines this in his ending to show that identity was even not set amongst Greek speaking people in Epirus at that time also. Regarding Zappas, Skoulidas one gives the name of his village in both Albanian and Greek and two cites and exmaple that he was also disusing matters relating to an Albanian alphabet. Nonetheless that does not make Zappas a Albanian, as he self identified as a Greek. Its the same with the Arvanites and similar populations like the Greek speaking Muslims.Resnjari (talk) 00:26, 25 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Since De Rapper, is neutral and i am yet to see anyone bring up someone saying that he is biased, he says the following of both Lunxheri and people like Zappas.
p. 10 Apart from religion, ethno-national affiliation appears to be of great relevance today. It is clear that, in this border area, it has always been important to identify oneself with one or other of the national groups. It is also well-known that, in this part of the Balkans, and back into the Ottoman times, the ethnonyms ‘Greek’ and ‘Orthodox Christian’ were largely synonymous, so that it was difficult to be Orthodox and to claim not to be Greek. Lunxhëri is an illustration of that ambiguity or contradiction. By the beginning of the nineteenth century and later on, the British, French and Austrian travellers who visited Lunxhëri, most of them arriving from Ioannina, described the Lunxhots as Albanian-speaking Orthodox Christians, and had the feeling that, starting north of Delvinaki, they were entering another country, although the political border did not exist at the time. Greek was not spoken as it was further south; there was a change in the way of life and manners of the peasants.
p.10-11. By the end of the nineteenth century, however, during the period of the kurbet, the Lunxhots were moving between two extreme positions regarding ethnic and national affiliation. On the one hand, there were those who joined the Albanian national movement, especially in Istanbul, and made attempts to spread a feeling of Albanian belonging in Lunxhëri. The well-known Koto Hoxhi (1825-1895) and Pandeli Sotiri (1843-1891), who participated in the opening of the first Albanian school in Korçë in 1887, were both from Lunxhëri (from the villages of Qestorat and Selckë). On the other hand were those who insisted on the Greekness of the Lunxhots and were opposed to the development of an Albanian national identity among the Christians. We recall here the names of the famous Christodoulos (1820-1898) and Jorgos (1863-1920) Zografos – the latter having been the head of the Governement of Autonomous Northern Epirus in Gjirokastër during the First World War – and of Vangelis Zappas (or Vangjel Zhapa, 1800-1865), all of them from Lunxhëri (Qestorat and Labovë e Zhapës). Between those two extreme positions were the majority of the people, and it is almost impossible today to say how they perceived [184] themselves. What is sure is that, in the context of the kurbet, most of them declared themselves as Greeks: memories of the kurbet show that in Istanbul the Lunxhots were living together with other Orthodox Christians from Greece and going to the same churches, and were part of the Greek minority there. In America as well, it seemed easier, or more meaningful, to declare themselves as Greek rather than as Albanians.
Migration as De Rapper says and being exposed to Greek culture and schools, church etc imparted Greek identity on a sizable number of Lunxhots especially those outside Lunxheri. Zappas Albanian interests reflects the dichotomy of complex identities of the area. The link to the article is above for all to read in depth.Resnjari (talk) 01:20, 25 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I see Skoulidas as focusing on Greek intellectuals in the Yanya Vilayet constructing an ethno-regional identity (i.e. Epirote) as a subset of their pre-existing Greek ethno-national identity. But however one interprets Skoulidas, his article does not provide any focused treatment of the modern Olympics and the life and career of Evangelos Zappas. Therefore, Skoulidas cannot be included in the entry. Umpire Empire (talk) 14:25, 24 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
You must have read the second article. Of course no inclusion would be done of that. Its part of the wider discussion about the complex identity of Zappas and the region he comes from Lunxheri. Zappas identified as a Greek and that the end of that. I placed those sources above because when i came to this page there was what was starting to become a tit or tat argument about nothing between other editors. Its come to a conclusion.Resnjari (talk) 00:26, 25 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
At least about his ethnic background, he declared clearly from the very start that he was of Greek origin.Alexikoua (talk) 20:39, 25 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I was reading his testament (10 pages long), it's the last link in the article. Suprisingly the word Albania(n) appears to be completely unknown for him. Thus, claiming the Zappas wasn't Greek is like claiming the Petro Marko isn't Albanian because he was born in a traditionally Greek village.Alexikoua (talk) 20:47, 25 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The same can be said of the Souliotes and the Arvanites or Greek speaking Muslims who identify as Turks. Zappas identified as a Greek. De Rapper discusses the process of people like him. De Rapper is a peer reviewed scholar with no nationalistic axe to grind, or Skoulidas for that matter. Lunxheri was undergoing various fluctuations of identity contestation and change. At the beginning of the nineteenth century, Lunxheri was a Albanian speaking area and Kalevretakis alongside De Rapper conclude the same thing in recent times when they did their fieldwork. As what the people there identify the sources point to differences due to religion and the political situation and so on. As for "Suprisingly the word Albania(n) appears to be completely unknown for him." in Turkey Greek speaking Muslims don't use the word Elines or Elinika for themselves. They use Romeika for the language which is often translated as synonymous with Byzantine, not Greek in the modern sense. One must be wary of these things. Its very complicated.Resnjari (talk) 05:37, 26 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I'm afraid you are still into extreme wp:OR again. Someone born in a specific settlement doesn't de facto make him Albanian. In Zappas' testament Albania(n) doesn't exist. On the other hand the Aromanian identity of some of his friends is mentioned inside the same text.Alexikoua (talk) 06:55, 26 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
"wp:OR". I cited De Rapper in full from one text which he talks about Zappas or was that about a different Zappas and a different Lunxheri. Once again its your opinion. If i am doing "wp:OR", then so is peer reviewed scholar De Rapper. I stated clearly that Zappas identified as a Greek in line with De Rapper who outlines the processes of how that came about, unless you can disprove De Rapper ? The onus is on you regarding that. Resnjari (talk) 06:59, 26 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
De Rapper doesn't claim anything about Zappas ethnicity, it's simply you that assumes he is Albanian. This can be easily considered as part of a national agenda. As far I see on Zappas time Labove was a Greek village too.Alexikoua (talk) 10:09, 26 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
In his article of which i placed a link above places Labova as one of the villages belonging to Lunxheri. In the article De Rapper clearly identifies Lunxheri as being an Albanian speaking area at the beginning of the nineteenth century according to multiple sources of which he expresses no doubt over them. De Rapper clearly states regarding ethncity "By the end of the nineteenth century, however, during the period of the kurbet, the Lunxhots were moving between two extreme positions regarding ethnic and national affiliation." One thing that is not in doubt is thier mother tongue. As for "national agenda", i am letting the sources speak for themselves. Whether or not you want to take them into consideration is another matter. I don't think De Rapper has a national agenda and he clearly states that: Between those two extreme positions were the majority of the people, and it is almost impossible today to say how they perceived themselves. What is sure is that, in the context of the kurbet, most of them declared themselves as Greeks: memories of the kurbet show that in Istanbul the Lunxhots were living together with other Orthodox Christians from Greece and going to the same churches, and were part of the Greek minority there.
In Lunxheri, it is difficult to say what people fully thought of themselves, but those that migrated outside of it like Evanglos Zappas referred to themselves as Greeks. I never said that Zappas was not Greek. But invoking De Rapper, he clearly points to a process and identitfies that process as migration and exposure to schools religion etc inculcating Greek identity. Its in the peer reviewed sources. Like i said the onus is on you to disprove De Rapper's scholarship and fieldwork.Resnjari (talk) 01:08, 27 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
In the time of Ali Pasha several settlements were depopulated, turned into ghost towns or their population was massacred (the last is the case of Hormove). Thus, modern demographics & even 19th century demographics do not necessary apply in the case of Zappa.Alexikoua (talk) 10:14, 26 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Your sources for this or otherwise its
wp:OR. But if one was to cite examples like Souli, a war was going on in that region. Regarding Lunxheri, its the first time i am hearing of this. Nor does even De Rapper discuss this. Please provide sources about "depopulation" or "massacres" in Lunxheri. By the way, the massacres of which you refer too pertained to two villages, Hormova and Kardhiq which were (Fleming cites Europeans of the day) and are still populated by Muslim Albanians (Kalivretakis). It was a revenge thing for Ali Pasha regarding those two villages. Please provide sources on Lunxheri, otherwise its just your opinion.Resnjari (talk) 01:08, 27 October 2015 (UTC)[reply
]
This is all very interesting (as usual), but there is one problem (as usual): Relevance. Unless a source specifically mentions Zappas by name, it is completely irrelevant to this article. It's that simple, really.
talk) 06:41, 27 October 2015 (UTC)[reply
]
It did, De Rapper's article mentions Zappas, so does Skoulidas. Zappas comes from a region that has a complicated situation regarding its identity and that what is borne out in the sources. In the end regarding Zappas he self identified as a Greek due to the reason given by De Rapper for people coming from his birthplace.Resnjari (talk) 06:47, 27 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
They don't say anything directly about Zappas' ethnic origin or affiliation, so they are irrelevant. So I'm not sure what there is to discuss.
talk) 06:54, 27 October 2015 (UTC)[reply
]
I only brought it up becuase, if you have time read the above discussion prior to me adding comments) it was heading towards a unnecessary tit for tat situation regarding a certain Albanian editor. I just didn't want him getting into unnecessary strife over nothing. These sources put an end to that. What followed was one of those dialogues that has occurred with me and Alexikoua, about the topic matter. Better have a disuccion than not. Its my style. I like detail. You know that by now.Resnjari (talk) 07:10, 27 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
At least Rolandi provided a number of references which point to Zappas, although not speciliazed ones. on the other hand you provided nothing serious so far instead of abstract ideas that the region he was born was considered as Albanian speaking at a latter era, without pointing to the ethnic background of Zappas precisely at all.Alexikoua (talk) 12:56, 27 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Once again, i said Zappas self identified himself a Greek. Rolandi’s sources point to something else regarding a Vlach identity. De Rapper does not and he also places Zappas in the group that self identified as a Greek. Two De Rapper who apart from having done fieldwork in the area and looking extensively within the archive (something which Rolandi’s sources do not regarding this matter) does not say that Lunxheri was considered Albanian speaking at a later date. When you will read the article, De Rapper unequivocally states that in the early nineteenth century, not late nineteenth century, Western European travelers and diplomats considered Lunxheri to be Albanian speaking and that there was a clear division between it and Greek speaking areas. De Rapper also states that throughout that century it is difficult to ascertain their identity. What is beyond doubt, again invoking De Rapper is that when people from Lunxheri undertook migration or Kurbet, when settling in Orthodox circles that had Greek culture, language and so on they identified as Greeks like Zappas. That is all very clear in the article. You are yet to provide sources that disprove De Rapper as a scholar and his work in general.Resnjari (talk) 22:06, 27 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
"+Hormove%2C+which+Hobhouse+calls+Korve+and+Lear+Khormovo%2C+was+destroyed+by+Ali+Pasha+and+all+its+inhabitants"#hl=el&tbm=bks&q=%22Hormove%2C+which+Hobhouse+calls+Korve+and+Lear+Khormovo%2C+was+destroyed+by+Ali+Pasha+and+all+its+inhabitants+slaughtered+%22 Hormove, which Hobhouse calls Korve and Lear Khormovo, was destroyed by Ali Pasha and all its inhabitants slaughtered.Alexikoua (talk)

Hormova, is to the west of Lunxheri. De Rapper does not include Hormova as being in Lunxheri. You where saying in the above comments that those events occurred in Lunxheri. De Rapper gives a list of Lunxheri villages. The source needs to encompass one or all of them not villages of the Kurvelesh area like Hormova and Kardhiq.Resnjari (talk) 22:06, 27 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Local demographics have their own dynamics in Lioutzi. De Rapper confirms exactly this: Muslim Albanian settlers were moved there, intermarriages of several Orthodox families with families from Dropolis occurred etc. However, the point this that De Raper claims nothing about Zappas geneological tree. Thus, if you are eager to proclaim the racial purity of this region in order to conclude that Zappas declaration and a mountain of bibliography about Zappas are useless, it's far too weak as an argument.Alexikoua (talk) 11:35, 28 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
De Rapper states that people in Lunxheri, not Lountzi were/are Albanian speakers (He does not mention the name Lountzi as being used by the people living in the area, so i dont know where that comes from. You would need to provide credible source/s for that term usage if the locals in Lunxheri, not Dropull use that word for their region.), in the early and late nineteenth century and when he was there in the 2000s, just like Kalivretakis and Winnifrith did in the 1990s, and Hammond and Clarke in the 1920s. De Rapper states that their identity in their home territory was difficult to ascertain and only those who migrated embraced a Greek identity like Zappas. Moreover, i have never "proclaimed" the "racial purity" of the region. I am not into fascist style beliefs and please do not attribute such words to me. Do not put words in my mouth. And not all Albanian Muslims in the area are "settlers" by the way. De Rapper does state that the communist regime settled many Vlachs (who have affected the local demography more than any Muslim Albanian has) who openly today identify themselves as Greeks. Are they settlers or they are Greek populations settled in the area that already is Greek, because the local Lunxhots loathe them deeply, as pointed out by De Rapper. Why is that if all feel they are Greeks? Strange that fellow Greeks would loathe other Greeks? Something to reflect upon. Or are the Muslim Albanians just the settlers and not the Vlachs? De Rapper states that's locals acknowledge that those Muslims living in Erind are indigenous to the area. Islamisation of the Albanian speaking population did not affect the whole area, only a small part of it. You still have not presented anything to refute what De Rapper states about Lunxheri. Those that became Muslim stayed Albanian, and did not experience the identity see saw of later years as outlined by De Rapper for the Orthodox Lunxhots. So of course there is also some intermarriage with Dropull (as De Rapper outlines), in a similar way that nearby Pogoni once had with people on the Albanian side of the border. That does not make them Greek. Sarah Green's book (Notes from the Balkans:Locating Marginality and Ambiguity on the Greek-Albanian Border) on Greek Pogoni states that some people had an Albanian speaking mother that came from the area. It still does not say that the people were not Greek per se. People embraced identities according to church and politics, and being Orthodox was at times considered synonymous with Greek in the Balkans. Not all agreed with that as De Rapper states and being Greek was in dispute in Lunxheri. Unless you can disprove De Rapper's findings or find some issue with him as a scholar, his work at this point in time and research regarding the matter stand. Zappas is Greek, but only through the process of migration and being exposed to Greek culture amongst his surroundings outside his home region as stated by De Rapper. Genealogies in the Balkans. Lol ! Going down that road would be problematic for all especially if we took Greece into consideration. For the time being i am sticking with De Rapper, unless you bring something to the contrary calling his scholarship into question or him as scholar.Resnjari (talk) 12:17, 28 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Zappas is Greek, but only through the process of migration and being exposed to Greek culture amongst his surroundings outside his home region as stated by De Rapper. I'm afraid that's one more wp:OR because De Rapper never mentions something specific about Zappas. Also Zappas never settled in Greece thus he couldn't have been exposed to Greek culture in Romania, the place he chosed to live. To sum up his origin is clearly stated by mainstream bibliography, some very precise quotes: [[19]] [["After+a+humble+beginning+in+a+Greek+village+in+Albania%2C+Zappas+had+become+one+of+the+richest+men+in+eastern+Europe%2C]] [[20]][[21]].Alexikoua (talk) 12:44, 28 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Greece was small at that time, the Ottoman state existed (Greek speaking communties existed in certain places) and there was a Greek colony in Romania. Not wp:OR because De Rapper does specifically mention something about Zappas. In that passage about Lunxhots, identity and Zappas he writes:
On the other hand were those who insisted on the Greekness of the Lunxhots and were opposed to the development of an Albanian national identity among the Christians. We recall here the names of the famous Christodoulos (1820-1898) and Jorgos (1863-1920) Zografos – the latter having been the head of the Governement of Autonomous Northern Epirus in Gjirokastër during the First World War – and of Vangelis Zappas (or Vangjel Zhapa, 1800-1865), all of them from Lunxhëri (Qestorat and Labovë e Zhapës). Between those two extreme positions were the majority of the people, and it is almost impossible today to say how they perceived themselves.
I am not calling into question what Zappas calls himself and self identifies. De Rapper is in line with placing Zappas as those who called themselves Greek. He just adds context(additional information) to how that happened in his article and identifies that process as migration or kurbet(a word which locals used). De Rapper is also a mainstream (Western) scholar and his work has been cited in many a credible and reliable publication. You can do a google books search or through scholar for that. Like i said, you have not brought anything that refutes his research (about the process of them becoming Greek) or him as a scholar. Sources must meet Wikipedia policy for credible and reliable sources if you have any that do. Lunxheri was between identities and its people reflected that.Resnjari (talk) 13:01, 28 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
A mountain of bibliography (authors like Brownell, Decker, Gerlach, Hill, Landry, Landry, Yerlès) doesn't name Zappas as Greek because he simply self-declared as such: Greek origin doesn't mean self-declaration. By the way, the above quote you provided doesn't state that Liountzi was ethnically pure Albanian. The only fact about Zappas is that he rejected any connection with an Albanian national identity. That's reasonable because he belonged to a diferrent ethnic background.Alexikoua (talk) 13:09, 28 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The mountian of biography just says he was a Greek. They of course don't focus on Lunxheri and the dynamics as their research is about the Olympics etc. De Rapper has done a holistic wide ranging study of the region and hence those figures come into focus as well (that article by De Rapper is from the book The new Albanian migration and in the book De Rapper's article has extensive footnotes missing from that pdf version if you want to check it out. Has Kretsi' article on Mursi too.). As for "the above quote you provided doesn't state that Liountzi was ethnically pure Albanian." no it does not. Nonetheless nor does it mean that Lunxheri was Greek either. But what De Rapper does point to unequivocally is that Lunxheri from the early nineteenth century, from Western government reports and from Western travellers who went to the area identified Lunxheri as a Albanian speaking area. And apart from a change in language from Greek speaking Pogoni, they noticed a change in customs and that there was a kind of border of sorts in the area. So though there is nothing about Albanian identity, but there is nothing about Greek identity either. What is certain is there was a difference between different linguistic groups to a certain extent which start to change later in the nineteenth century when identity becomes a contested ground. As for "Greek origin doesn't mean self-declaration." yet De Rapper points to that in his article. When Lunxhots went abroad they identified with Greek identity and names Zappas in that category. He also states that those that stayed behind in Lunxheri, it is difficult to ascertain what they thought of themselves during that time. "The only fact about Zappas is that he rejected any connection with an Albanian national identity. That's reasonable because he belonged to a diferrent ethnic background." Sorry but saying "that's reasonable" is just

wp:OR. De Rapper does not state this. All sources just state that Zappas was Greek without giving context. De Rapper is inline with this with the only addition of giving the context of what was going with individuals like Zappas from Lunxheri, when they migrated.Resnjari (talk) 01:42, 29 October 2015 (UTC)[reply
]

The mountian of biography just says he was a Greek. No, they clearly state that Zappas was of Greek origin/ethnicity with all necessary context about him. It can't be more simple than that: person X is of Y ethnicity, accompanied with detailed descriptions about his life. On the other hand, De Rapper states that Zappas rejected the Albanian national identity and (no wonder, in agreement to his ethnic backround) was a representative of the Greek national ideas. I'm glad you admit that the region he lived was not a "pure Albanian region". To conclude, per available bibliography, Zappas was one of the people of this region that was not Albanian.Alexikoua (talk) 12:10, 29 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Greek had multiple meanings in the pass. De Rapper states in that article on 4-5:
"As it is well known, in that part of the Balkans, the ethnonym ‘Greek’ was widely used with a religious meaning, and all the Orthodox Christians were called ‘Greeks’. Still today, this ambiguity creates space for the discussion over the size of the Greek minority in Albania: are all Orthodox Christians of Greek descent, or only a part of them? If the ethnonym ‘Greek’ is not used today by the Lunxhotes, there is evidence that they did use it in the past, at least in its religious dimension.

It was a process. Those who migrated outside of the region identified as Greek, those that remained in the region it was difficult to ascertain, as Greek has multiple meanings. De Rapper regarding the locals outlines that Lunxhots used it in a religious sense, as for its ethnic component that is more difficult to ascertain except those who migrated to foreign places like Zappas. What is constant and beyond doubt is that the people lived in an area is identified as Albanian speaking. As for "I'm glad you admit that the region he lived was not a "pure Albanian region". all i said was that it is difficult to attribute identities on the area as outlined by De Rapper but that the region was consistently identified as Albanian speaking, back in the early 19th century and even now and that part is fact. That's all, as for identity that is a whole different matter. Church, schools, religion, nationalism all played their role in shaping conflicts and identity contests in the area as outlined by De Rapper.Resnjari (talk) 12:43, 29 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I still fail to see the name Zappas in the above quote. By the way, ethnic purity as you claim is not in agreement with De Rapper. As I see he states for example that intermarriages with the people of Dropul were quite often.Alexikoua (talk) 19:58, 29 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I never said anything about ethnic purity nor did i claim it. All i said, in line with De Rappe,r was that the region of Lunxheri has been known to be an Albanian speaking region from the early nineteenth century onwards. Yes mixed marriages have occurred. De Rapper does not cite this as being majority of cases. Same with the neighbouring Greek speaking region of Pogoni. They took Albanian speaking brides in the past, does not mean they became Albanian speakers or identified as Albanian (See Green's boook for more). The article is about the wider Lunxheri area. I stuff relating to Zappas and Greek identity in migratory context i have already cited.Resnjari (talk) 23:56, 29 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
As I see Zappas' testament mentions several times the word "Aromanian" to refer to some of his friends or to the Aromanian language. Thus, I couldn't have used "Greek" in a religious context.Alexikoua (talk) 20:02, 29 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
That's fascinating Alexikoua. Cite the source/s for that and if you have a inline citation please place here. You have awakened my curiosity now. In what way does Zappas refer to the Aroumanian language. Does he have knowledge of it? Also Greek has not always meant "ethnic" or in the way it is expressed in current times. De Rapper outlines this and one can quote a whole host of other scholars on the matter, many Greek. BestResnjari (talk) 23:56, 29 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
For example (in p. 186) he states that some onwership papers should be typed in both Greek and Aromanian.Alexikoua (talk) 20:17, 1 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
One i need the source, two i need the inline citation and three what you have so far placed here does contradict De Rapper. Zappas mentioned the word Aromanian regarding his friends. I have friends of many ethnicities and linguistic groups here in Melbourne. Some are of a Chinese background, does that make me Chinese ? Anyway i am trying to work out from what you have said there, what does having Vlach friends have to do with Zappas himself? Also he states that papers need to be written in Aromanian. Since he had Aromanian fiends was it due too them not knowing Greek that he says this ? You need to elaborate with source and inline and it cannot be original research. Moreover De Rapper who discusses Lunxheri and Zappas in the same academic article, 1, states that Greek was used in a religious context, 2, the region of Lunxheri has been Albanian speaking (yes you will say there where mixed marriages, but De Rapper states they occurred later and i came across Hammond yesterday that says Lunxheri people married only amongst themselves in the interwar period. I will give the inline if you want next time around if you wish), 3, it is difficult to ascertain what locals thought of themselves in terms of ethnicity. 4, there was a hearts and minds campaign between two groups attempting to convince the Lunxhots to identify as Greek or Albanian. And 5 when Lunxhots like Zappas migrated outside Lunxheri they identified as Greek because they mixed in Greek circles as clearly outlined by De Rapper. You have to date still not brought something to contradict or show what De Rapper has outlined to be flawed.Resnjari (talk) 04:04, 2 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
My point about Zappas' testament is that he mentions the existence of Aromanian language in his environment. On the other hand Albanian is completely non-existent to him, thus he never mentions it. As I recall Greek wasn't only a religious langugage in Labovo. The village was also a powerhouse of Greek education & hosted primary, secondary level and girls' schools and libraries.Alexikoua (talk) 14:33, 2 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
He associated with Vlach speakers, that's all. If one takes from that some kind of identity marker, then Skoulidas mention of Zappas' interest in the Albanian Alphabet, one too could draw a similar conclusion about Zappas being something other like an Arvanite at the very least. Now that would be original research however and does not count in here. Of course Labovë had Greek schools, Greek was a language of trade and religion used by Orthodox Albanian speaking populations (i invoke Skoulidas here. See his article in full with link in above posts and Orthodox use of Greek.). There was no alphabet to write the language. Its why there was debates about how to make that happen by people who lived in areas where Albanian was spoken (like De Rapper identifies Lunxheri as an Albanian speaking area) to make that happen. De Rapper says of Greek usage in Lunxhëri: "Thus the use of Greek is acknowledged, in trade and education"

p.8."The spread of Greek schools and religion also means that many school teachers and priests were of Greek background, coming either from Dropull and Pogon or from Greece."

Another point which needs some explanation is why the Albanian government planned to establish a Greek school in 1929 for the Greek-speaking children in Labove (north of Gjirokaster? Obviously "for the Albanian government in 1929" there were Greek-speaking children in this village.Alexikoua (talk) 14:41, 2 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding Labovë i will quote Winnifrith, who cites Clarke, a British scholar who was there in the early interwar period when he was leaving from the Pogoni villages into Lunxhëri. Labove is the first of the Lunxhëri villages when crossing from Pogoni (since you have the book you can check it). Winnifrith, Tom (2002). Badlands, Borderlands: A History of Northern Epirus/Southern Albania. Duckworth. p. 165. "On 24 January Clarke left for Labovë. He noted that then as now he was crossing a linguistic border from an area where Greek is spoken to one where it was merely understood. But he also said that there was little difference between the architecture of Labovë and of the villages he previously visited, and that both in Labovë and farther north at Saraganishtë there was a certain amount of pro-Greek feeling."

Hammond who was also there during the interwar period, list in full all the Greek villages of Albanian Pogoni and Labovë does not figure in any of them. Hammond, Nicholas (1967). Epirus: the Geography, the Ancient Remains, the History and Topography of Epirus and Adjacent Areas. Clarendon Press. states: p.27. "The present distribution of the Albanian-speaking villages bears little relation to the frontier which was drawn between Greece and Albania after the First World War. In Map 2 I have shown most of the Greek speaking villages in Albanian Epirus and some of the Albanian-speaking villages in Greek Epirus. The map is based on observations made by Clarke and myself during our travels between 1922 and 1939."; p.28-29. In Llunxherië the villages are more compact but smaller, Shtegopul and Saraginishtë, for instance, having only fifty houses each; the people of Llunxherië are all Albanian Orthodox Christians, except those of Erind, who are partly Christian and Mohammedan, and the men, but not the women, know some Greek. Zagorië has the same characteristics, its ten villages extending from Doshnicë to Shepr; the group is endogamous and does not marry with the people of Llunxherië. Pogoni, or Paleo-Pogoni as some people call it, consists of seven Greek-speaking villages near.y 3,000 ft. above sea-level (Poliçan, Skorë, Hlomo, Sopik, Mavrojer, Çatistë, and, on the Greek side of the frontier, Drimadhes), the biggest, Poliçan, has a population of 2,500 persons and Sopik has 300 houses. The Pogoniates normally marry only within their group, but occasionally a bride may be taken from Zagorië and then she is taught Greek."

Also in that paragraph that you cite from Clayer, the whole thing says:

"In 1929, when the government was developing a project to open a boarding school for Greek-speaking children in Labovë (in the region of Rrezë). northeast of Gjirokastër), Branko Merxhani, a contributor In the local newspaper hut also a deputy school inspector, wrote in a report for the Minister that this idea had not been well received by the local Albanian Christians from Rrezë, Zagori and Lunxhëri and that it would be better to accept children from the Albanian-speaking villages of these areas in the future school. The inspector, however, intervened against what he considered an attempt by Branko Merxhani to interfere in the Greek-speaking teaching and, as a matter of fact, the project was never realised."

Apart from Clayer mixing up the regions where Labovë is (Rrezë is the area of the Vjosa valley with its centre Përmet) she is in line with De Rapper, Winnifrith's citation of Clarke and Hammond. Note that Clayer writes Greek-speaking children and the period of time is identified as the interwar one. Hammond and Clarke who by no means can be called Albanian sympathizers clearly noted they where crossing a linguistic boundary and that customs also differed in the area. Women knew no Greek, the men knew some Greek, and Clayer cites the matter of schools and Greek education. She also interestingly cites Merxhani noting in his report that the locals don't at all seem to be pleased with the Albanian government initiative to have that Greek school around (So much for "Albanisation"). One also does not know if the Greek school was for Greek kids from neighbouring villages of Pogoni as Labovë is the last Lunxheri village before entering Pogoni villages (see any map out there). I say this because she then follows on in the next sentence by saying that "it would be better to accept children from the Albanian-speaking villages of these areas in the future school." So either some kind of language shift was occurring under the Albanian government's nose or the Albanian government itself was promoting Greek education for children in Albanian speaking villages whose mothers knew no Greek and fathers had passive knowledge of Greek. Clayer mixed things up in the paragraph. But lets say she didn't, the issue of education still aligns as those "Greek speaking children" were exposed to Greek in the school system as De Rapper states. One wonders how these kids where communicating with their parents, especially their mothers who knew no Greek ! Yes there was pro-Greek felling and that was part of the larger tug of war regarding identities by the Lunxhots which De Rapper also outlines. Interestingly Hammond too like Green cites the taking of Albanian brides by Greek speaking Pogoni.Resnjari (talk) 00:43, 3 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

As stated above Labovo had Greek-speaking children indeed and there were plans by the Albanian government to establish a Greek school in 1929. It's very interesting. De Rapper doesn't claim that this was exclusively Albanian region (mainly doesn't mean purely). Thus everything agrees that the local Greek element was strong enough at least in thiis village to triger plans by the Albanian state for the foundation of a Greek educational institution, in a period when Greek education was widely prohibited all over southern Albania.Alexikoua (talk)
Labovë at the same time had women who knew no Greek and its men knew some Greek during the interwar period as Clarke observed. The children were Greek speaking in what Clayer provides where she misidentifies Labove in Rreza (so i concern right there). She writes that in the context of schools and cites that Merxhani in that same report noted that Orthodox Albanian speakers where not keen on the initiative. I wonder why? Maybe the monolingual Orthodox Albanian speaking mothers did not understand their Greek speaking children? Maybe their fathers were the intermediary with their limited knowledge of Greek. Question is in what language where those kids communicating with their parents ? At the very least their mothers who knew no Greek ? Sing language maybe ? I am very interested on what answers you have for that ? De Rapper states unequivocally that Lunxheri was a Albanian speaking region from the early nineteenth century onwards. Identity wise, he states that one cannot say this or that as to what the people thought of themselves and only when they were at kurbet, or migrated can one say they identified as Greek (eg. Zappas). De Rapper even states when Lunxhots start to intermarry with Greeks, its from the 1960s, its some marriages and it picks up a bit after Communism's fall. Hammond noted in the interwar period that Lunxheri back then was inhabited by Orthodox Albanian speakers. It was Greek speaking villages who took Orthodox Albanian speaking brides. The local Greek element was in Pogoni. One could speak of Pogoni as having a mixed population, or would you say that not to be the case, as mixed only counts for Albanian speaking areas, right ? De Rapper states that amongst the Orthodox a tug of war if ones calls it that was going on in Lunxheri about identity. All this is in line with De Rapper and Skoulidas about Orthodox Albanian speakers and the larger question of immersing themselves and becoming Greek. "Thus everything agrees that the local Greek element was strong enough at least in thiis village to triger plans by the Albanian state for the foundation of a Greek educational institution," Berxhani notes that the locals where dead against it, even though the government wanted to do it. So sorry but what you have inferred does not suffice here. Labovë during the interwar is shown to be a Albanian speaking village (Clarke) within a Albanian speaking area with people (Hammond). Albania only started to function as a sovereign state in 1920. For "Albanianisation" to occur and Clarke was there only a few years later, how does one get monolingual Albanian speaking women, Albanian speaking men with passive knowledge of Greek ? Where did this "Albanisation" occur (considering that the Ottomans were dead against Albanian education and Ali Pasha used Greek as the language of government and Albanian was sidelined)? Greek education was being replaced in Southern Albania, the same way Turkish education was being replaced in Muslim villages. People wanted the language of the local vernacular i.e Albanian. There were some who did not (as De Rapper outlines and it varied in some places). You still have not disproved that it was a process of Albanian speaking people in the area becoming Greek through religion, culture, schools and so on. Your thoughts ?Resnjari (talk) 08:45, 3 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]


Guy, Nicola C. "Linguistic boundaries and geopolitical interests: the Albanian boundary commissions, 1878–1926." Journal of Historical Geography 34.3 (2008): 457-458.

The southern commission began its work at Monastir, on 4 October 1913. Obstacles soon materialized: in fifty-eight days the commissioners visited only six villages and interviewed fourteen people. The Greek government was repeatedly accused of attempting to influence decision-making with the use of extensive propaganda and subversive initiatives. The commission reported a so-called ‘Sacred Legion’ which cried ‘union or death’ at every opportunity, and the presence of irregular troops that were used to ensure that all doors of Christian homes remained closed to conceal the Albanian-speaking women inside, or so it was believed. Lieutenant-Colonel Charles Doughty-Wylie, the British representative and commission chairman, reported that houses were painted in the Greek colours of blue and white, and that the church bells rang whenever the commission arrived at a town or village. He believed that this was meant to reinforce the Christian (Orthodox) and thus supposedly Greek nature of the town. He wrote that the commissioners were always greeted either by a hostile crowd, clamouring for union with Greece, or by school children speaking Greek and waving Greek flags.

The inference was that the ‘Greeks’ were orchestrating these welcome parties. The suspicion of the commissioners seemed verified on one visit, when a group of children appeared to speak Greek. However, when the senior Austrian delegate, Bilinski, threw down a handful of coins, they all started squabbling in Albanian. The commissioners appear to have soon encountered serious problems in using language as the sole criterion to determine ethnography and hence establishment of an international boundary. Many people in the region were bilingual or trilingual, and spoke Albanian in their homes (mother tongue), but Greek for business or general communication outside the home (lingua franca), whilst Turkish was the official language, and some also spoke Vlach or a Slavonic dialect. This bi-or multi-lingualism is understandable given that there was no separate Albanian Orthodox Church (until 1923), no agreed written language until the Monastir Alphabet Congress (1908), and that the teaching of Albanian had only recently been allowed in schools. Additionally, the commissioners discovered that within the family, the younger generation, particularly male members, commonly spoke Greek. The commissioners surmised that this phenomenon was a result of economic necessity: Greek was the language of trade, whereas Albanian had no wide commercial usage. On the other hand, the older generation, especially women, generally spoke Albanian.

That is what Nicola Guy, a peer reviewed scholar in her article on the boundary commission write regarding Albanian speakers. This is in line the De Rapper and Skoulidas about Orthodox Albanian speakers with the older generations being monlignual and the younger ones due to schools and so forth becoming Greek. Clarke noted in Labove, the women were monolignual Albanian speakers. I have the article if you want. Send me a message if you want me to email it to you. Resnjari (talk) 09:01, 3 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Your arguments can be hardly considered relevant to the subject. Fact is that a state government had plans to erect a Greek school for the village's Greek speaking children, in the same village where the Greek national benefactor Zappas was born, 129 years earlier.Alexikoua (talk) 15:15, 3 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, in a village that a British scholar (Clarke) passed through and found the women to be completely Albanian speaking (monolingual) and the men knew some Greek. Clayer refers to Greek schools, alongside that Greek speaking children reference and she follows that on with the people of the area being not in favour of a Greek school at all. All i have brought does not in the least contradict that it was a process whereby Orthodox Albanian speakers were becoming Greek through a process of schools and church giving rise to individuals like Zappas. Zappas's region of Lunxheri has continuously been identified as a Albanian speaking region by many who have passed there(non-Albanian i might add), and his village in the interwar period had monolingual Albanian women, Albanian speaking men who had passive knowledge of Greek and Greek speaking children. Well one can choose what they want to focus on a sentence without taking in the whole context of even the source that you presented. Nonetheless the peer reviewed sources speak for themselves however and do not contradict. You still did not explain how the women of Labovë were monolingual Albanian speakers in the early interwar period as Albania just managed to consolidate itself ? The peer reviewed source above i have presented give insight into how Greek speaking children in regions identified as Orthodox and Albanian speaking came about. By the way to date these are all non Albanian peer reviewed sources here. Resnjari (talk) 01:59, 4 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Clarke didn't meet Zappas relatives. Also only per Albanian nationalist thought (as stated by De Rapper) this was a purely Albanian region, something we should avoid to claim in wikipedia, especially about locals who never had an Albanian background.Alexikoua (talk) 19:15, 4 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Clarke was in Labovë. Labovë has repeatedly been identified as belonging in an Albanian speaking area Lunxheri over and over again. I am yet to see a source that says its part of Greek speaking Pogoni, unless you have come across something. Moreover, what does Clarke meeting Zappas relatives have to do with anything. As De Rapper outlines Orthodox Albanian speaking people in Lunxheri had identity tug of wars even amongst families. De Rapper also states that knowing the identity of people in the area during that time is difficult and only can be ascertained for people who left the region like Zappas in a migratory context. You can choose to ignore this, but the peer reviewed sources speak for themselves. You have talked of linguistic Albanisation of the area been undertaken by the Albanian government. Yet Clarke went there at a time when the Albanian state just managed to start function as a state. When did this Albanianisation happen? For language change and shift to occur, the area has to be under prolonged government control as with Greece and the Arvanites, Greece and the Macedonians up north etc etc. Unless the Ottomans where "promoting" Albanian education and language. Last one checked the Ottomans allowed Greek schools and repressed any Albanian ones with force. Of course Albanian nationalist thought today holds that Lunxheri is Albanian. They ignore that Enver settled Vlachs en masse in the area in the 1960s which changed the demographic composition of the area and also that those Vlachs self identify or have Greek sympathies today (as outlined by De Rapper). De Rapper noted that local Orthodox Albanian speaking Lunxhots loathe them very much. But aren't both populations Greek or at the very least have Greek sympathies ? Why is there that loathing ? It does not come from the state above, if anything the state was responsible for changing the demographics. Albanian nationalists ignore the demographic changes that Enver brought with the Vlachs. I never denied Zappas was a Greek, but it was due to a process, one that occurred with migration (as stated by De Rapper) and as per all the above sources and many more regarding Orthodox Albanian speaking populations and Greek identity. It was a process.Resnjari (talk) 01:51, 5 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
what does Clarke meeting Zappas relatives have to do with anything Surprisingly this article is titled E. Zappas and I assume you question the ethnicity of the subject. So far, your argument fails to focus on this person, and are still limited to general travel-accounts of the wider area.Alexikoua (talk) 07:16, 5 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Not really. I said Zappas was Greek. But that it was thrrough a process as the scholarship outlines. Wikipedia policy regarding sources says acedmics that have looked at material and made a judgement on them are sources deemed to be reliable. Those travelers accounts are deemed credible by De Rapper. You have not found any fault with De Rapper as a scholar or his work. Moreover, Hammond is a credible scholar who wrote extensively on Epirus and that particular book has both fieldwork and research about ancient Epirus stuff. Clarke is cited by Winnifrith who uses his scholarly fieldwork notes. Both books are not counted as travel accounts but serious scholarly works, which i might add have been cited by Greek Wikipedia editors multiple times. Zappas is like the Arvanites in Greece. They self identified as Greeks, yet the areas where they came from have been identified as speaking something different. As those areas got included in Greece early, Greek identity regarding them was established earlier on. From the other side, there are Vlachs from Aroumanian speaking areas and Slavic Macedonians from Slavic Macedonian speaking areas who identified as Greeks. De Rapper when discussing Zappas included him in that group of people espousing Greek identity (when migrating) while saying its difficult to say what the locals had as an identity and he outlines that there was a tug of war regarding identity with the Albanian speaking region. The Albanian speaking bit about Lunxheri is unanimous however. None of the sources contradict.Resnjari (talk) 07:45, 5 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
A weird combination of wp:SYTNH and wp:OR, especially in connection to Zappas. Actually De Rapper states that the so-called Albanian purity of Lunxhery is nothing more than a product of a nationalist myth. I can only assume that you know something about the family tree of the subject.Alexikoua (talk) 16:09, 5 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Yes of course, Vlachs were settled there. Albanian nationalists ignore that. De Rapper wrote in that paragraph that the region was Albanian speaking region and its people, well those who migrated had views about their identity as being Greek in an outside context. He identifies as Zappas as one of those people. I still fail how you get "wp:SYTNH and wp:OR," from that as it is contained within one article analysed Lunxheri, its people, language and identities. And there is more than enough out there about how Orthodox Albanian speakers became Greek. No one knows what Zappas family identified as at that point in time. De Rapper says it is difficult to know what those people in Lunxheri at that time identified as. The article like is there. Read in detail. None of the peer reviewed sources also brought here contradict each other. Whether you want to take not of them is another matter.Resnjari (talk) 02:52, 7 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Persistent Vandalism and Albanian POV-Pushing from an edit warring IP.

Could an admin please put this article under protection? Thanks. Othon I (talk) 13:32, 9 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Edit-war

Khirurg, stop with your childish reverts. You've continously been doing ridiculous changes to the article (god forbid if Zappas is referred to as an Aromanian before as a Greek in a sentence). You like it or not, there are sources supporting Aromanian ancestry for Zappas. Saying he's an ethnic Greek, and only an ethnic Greek, is POV. By the way, lazy edit summaries such as "rv per sources" seem bad faith to me. I don't think I need to explain why. Super Ψ Dro 09:25, 21 December 2021 (UTC)[reply
]

You should read the sources before reverting. Many of these (e.g. Gerlach, Chatziefstathiou, and others) clearly state he was of ethnic Greek origin. Thus, the link to
Khirurg (talk) 13:24, 21 December 2021 (UTC)[reply
]
Yeah, and there also are sources saying he was of ethnic Aromanian origin. I don't know why do you think that's an argument. The link to Greece is appropiate, as Zappas was a citizen of Greece, but this Greece went through two "stages" during his lifetime (First Hellenic Republic and Kingdom of Greece), so we can't link one of the two. And the existance of a Greek state Zappas could have citizenship from is the condition for us having "Greek" at the first sentence of his article, because if this wasn't fullfilled, to call him Greek and only Greek would be POV. Note that linking countries instead of ethnicities is a practice taken in many other articles, including cases in which the subject belongs to one ethnicity only, see Christodoulos Hatzipetros or Dimitrios D. Miaoulis. I am not even sure why should we link Greek. There are many biographical articles that don't link nationalities. I would accept a solution like that. That's what I see childish. There are many alternatives to this dispute that I can think of but there are users trying to promote a less common practice to state something that is disputed. Although I should note that I thought it was Alexiouka and not you who did that revert (yes, even after copypasting your username, I just mindlessly copied the username attached to the revert I got a notification from). It seemed pretty ridiculous to me that this user would revert me again about this and with such an edit summary but it doesn't matter since it was another user so I apologize to both of you as my decreased civility seemed justified to me with the mistaken user in my mind. Super Ψ Dro 14:37, 21 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Khirurg, sorry but I really can't understand your logic. Could you explain why is it okay to only follow the sources saying he was of Greek ethnicity but not the ones saying he was of Aromanian one? Super Ψ Dro 12:32, 23 December 2021 (UTC)[reply
]
Here to provide a third opinion. It seems to me that since this fact appears to be highly disputed, the link in question (and the Aromanians tag) should be removed until a consensus agreement can be reached on the talk page. I will also ask Super Dromaeosaurus to please attempt a more civil tone (as opposed to calling people and their actions childish, ridiculous, and/or using edit summaries as inappropriate as "won't be wasting more time talking to a wall"). ParticipantObserver (talk) 14:48, 30 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, I just now saw the prior dispute resolution. The ruling was that Zappas should not be identified in the article as Aromanian, so the Aromanian tag should be removed. The ruling did not speak to Greek (state) vs Greek (ethnicity), so it would be best to reach an agreement about that issue on the talk page before re-inserting either link. ParticipantObserver (talk) 14:57, 30 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
There is no reason to remove the link to Greeks: Greek in reference to Zappas should link to the correspondent article. He was a Greek patriot and its oversourced (some top graded sources that confirm this statement: [[22]][[23]][[24]])Alexikoua (talk) 17:03, 28 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
But for the tenth time, there are sources saying that, ethnically, he was not Greek, but Aromanian. The link to ethnic Greeks ignores a total of 7 RS. I don't see how this is fair or allowable, and everytime that I've brought this up, it was ignored. Super Ψ Dro 10:27, 6 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The two are not mutually exclusive: One can be both of Greek and Aromanian ethnicity, Zappas perhaps being the best example. You seem to have a very primordialist view of "ethnicity", as if it's something pure, eternal, and unchanging. It's not. The link to
Khirurg (talk) 22:31, 7 March 2022 (UTC)[reply
]
As far as I know, the "changeable" thing is nation, not ethnicity, but it doesn't matter too much in my opinion. If we consider that Zappas could have been of both Aromanian and Greek ethnicity, then another issue arises, which is that for some reason only one of his ethnicities (under this view) is mentioned in the lead. If we mentioned "Greek-Aromanian" or something like that on the lead I'd be satisfied too, but it's enough for me to just avoid referring to him only as an ethnic Greek there. I stopped pushing for the "Greece" link since I didn't know he hadn't lived in the country (I didn't read the article too much, only the lead). I guess I will consider again a dispute resolution method. Super Ψ Dro 18:31, 8 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

RfC

Should the lead of this article refer to Zappas exclusively as an ethnic Greek? Super Ψ Dro 10:20, 10 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

For some reason there has to be a RfC over such a petty dispute. Currently, the article includes seven sources saying that Zappas may have been of Aromanian ethnicity. However, some users have insisted on keeping a link in the lead to the ethnic Greeks page for referring to Zappas. This is POV considering that the first subsection of the article should make it very clear that his ethnicity is disputed. It is also non-standard practice, I've just clicked on "random page" and gotten five biographies: Usha Uthup, Roger Clinch, Adam Simac, Juan Padilla (second baseman) and Martín Caballero. As you can see, none of these articles have a link to the article on the subject's ethnicity on the opening line. Not sure why should this article be an exception.

In my opinion, the link should be deleted. I am not asking for the word "Greek" to be removed, only the link. Zappas did have Greek national consciousness and was a citizen of the Greek state that appeared later during his lifetime. Super Ψ Dro 10:28, 10 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

+1 for removing the link, doesn't seem standard as per GAs like Farhan Akhtar and Jennifer Connelly Clarysandy (talk) 12:40, 10 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose removal of link Numerous sources refer to him as an ethnic Greek, and all agree he identified as a Greek. There is simply no valid reason to remove the link.
    Khirurg (talk) 15:18, 10 September 2022 (UTC)[reply
    ]
Numerous sources refer to him as an ethnic Greek and numerous sources refer to him as an ethnic Aromanian. Why do they not matter? Super Ψ Dro 20:02, 10 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Because he identified as Greek, and that's what matters.
Khirurg (talk) 23:30, 10 September 2022 (UTC)[reply
]
Nobody disputes that. What I am disputing is if that justifies ignoring seven reliable sources contradicting the claim that he was a Greek. Super Ψ Dro 00:05, 11 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support removal of wiki-link. Zappas has been described as an ethnic Aromanian by multiple reliable sources, having a link to the ethnic Greeks in the lead of his article is simply not acceptable and goes against
    Ahmet Q. (talk) 16:41, 10 September 2022 (UTC)[reply
    ]
Oppose: Should the lead of this article refer to Zappas exclusively as an ethnic Greek? It appears you are wrong since Greek refers to his nationality, Zappas had Greek citizenship. I can't understand why you are mixing up ethnicity. The claim is wrong. What's most important is that bibliography agrees that Zappas was a Greek entrepreneur. His ethnicity is described in the relevant section of the article.Alexikoua (talk) 02:04, 11 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The article Greeks that is linked in the opening sentence of the article is about ethnicity. It includes Greeks in Greece, Cyprus, and also people with Greek blood in countries like the USA, Germany, etc.. Meanwhile, the language section at the infobox includes only Greek as a spoken language, not Aromanian, Albanian, Slavic Macedonian and other minority languages in Greece. The linked article is about ethnicity so the discussion is about ethnicity. Zappas did have Greek citizenship and I don't dispute that. But note that several of the five biographies I linked above are from countries that are not nation states, such as Canada or India, and therefore their demonym at the opening sentence refers to nationality and not possibly to ethnicity. And it is not linked. Why make an exception here? Super Ψ Dro 09:59, 11 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support removal of link, Zappas ethnic origin is a matter of dispute. The link should lead to Greek instead.
Alltan (talk) 17:26, 11 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: The problem doesn't lie in the link, but in the article Greeks itself. It discusses Greeks as an ethnic group and/or nation in a way which excludes many people who are Greeks today. This is unfortunately something which the editors who prefer its current state do not fully grasp for what it is - a fundamental flaw. Zappas may have genuinely considered himself Greek in the modern, post-Byzantine Romios sense and this is how most people who call themselves Greeks today acquired such an identity, hence the link should be there but he definitely didn't believe that he was a descendant of ancient Mycenaeans - something which isn't true for many people who call themselves Greeks and which - even as a belief - played no role at all in them calling themselves Greeks. Hence the problem lies in the article, not in the link. In my opinion, another solution would be to change the target article to Greece instead Greeks, hence emphasize his participation in the nation-building of modern Greece and maybe call him Greek and Romanian (target article: Romania) to link it with his participation in the nation-building of Romania. In any case, I think that the term Greek should link to something.--Maleschreiber (talk) 23:10, 11 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Linking to
Khirurg (talk) 00:59, 12 September 2022 (UTC)[reply
]
Adding a link to Greece was an initial proposal in the discussions previous to this RfC. However there were two different Greek states during his lifetime, the First Hellenic Republic and the Kingdom of Greece. He was also not born in either. Also, I think it's easier to remove an unorthodox change from a biography article that breaks the common practice than to expand the scope of a whole ethnicity article and set it apart from the rest of pages of the same topic. Super Ψ Dro 10:16, 12 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support removal of link per MOS:ETHNICITY.--Ortizesp (talk) 17:19, 12 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support removal of link Zappas was one of many people with fluid identities at that time's Ottoman Balkans. While he ofc was primarily a Greek, his Greekness could be different from today's ethnicity concept. The article already says that he took multiple identities (Albania as the place of birth, Greece as ethnic origin and Romania as the place he made his adopted country). Furthermore, Marinov 2013 says that "For some nineteenth-century Orthodox intellectuals, it is difficult to say to what extent they were Greek, and to what extent Albanian—not to mention the case of the philanthropist Evangelis Zappas (1800–1865), who is also claimed by Romania".
    Ktrimi991 (talk) 17:32, 12 September 2022 (UTC)[reply
    ]
  • Support removal of link per nom.Çerçok (talk) 00:53, 13 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment the problem appears to lie in conflating two attributes, (ethnicity and nationality) but failing to make clear in text and links how one is using the term at any point. Clearly, if in the opening sentence 'Greek' refers to ethnicity, then his ethnicity is unclear and/or disputed and should not be linked to as if it were clearly and wholly 'Greek'. If the word refers to nationality and/or self-described identity, then the text fails to make that clear and the link does not go to the state he was a citizen of/chose to give his loyalty to. The average Eng WP reader is accustomed to a person's nationality being in the opening sentence as a primary defining feature, their ethnicity being later or absent commonly. I appreciate that isn't always possible in a historical and/or Balkan/Ottoman context, but many readers are going to be misled or confused if the text, the links and the justifications don't align. Pincrete (talk) 12:42, 6 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Omit link. The subject has been described both Greek and Aromanian in reliable sources. The current text "was a Greek patriot" doesn't refer to ethnicity. Linking to
    Politrukki (talk) 15:00, 19 October 2022 (UTC)[reply
    ]
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