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Empires with sourced areas but without dates
I figured I'd make a section for empires where sources have been found for the maximum extent but with no year specified (meaning they can't be included in the list). My hope is that this will be helpful when people try to locate sources. Feel free to add entries of your own to the list below. TompaDompa (talk) 23:38, 3 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
. An empire of a hundred thousand square miles, occupied by about three million people from different ethnic groups, made it imperative for the Asante to evolve sophisticated statal and parastatal institutions [...]
. [T]he state of Đại Cồ Việt was established in the tenth century [...] The maximum extent of the territory at that time was around 110,000 square kilometres.
. [W]hen Nguyễn Vietnam surrendered to France in the late nineteenth century the territory it claimed to control had more than tripled to over 370,000 square kilometres
. In the Mediterranean area the earliest historic governments which extended their territory by major use of fleets were the Greek and the Phoenecian, reaching areas of approximately 250,000 square miles each
The most accepted size is between 10,5 and 13,4 million km², this is because of the changing borders in brasil and african colonies. 89.214.157.10 (talk) 07:49, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This page even has the brasilian empire that was part of the portuguese empire and got independence in 1822, and marks the second portuguese empire that decreased ever since, you have both in this page, the biggest portuguese empire was the brasilian empire plus the second portuguese empire 2001:8A0:FB96:2A00:E08C:CDC5:34EC:D655 (talk) 07:56, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No, brazil got independence in 1822, in 1815 brazil was not only portuguese but Rio de Janeiro in Brazil was the capital of the portuguese empire 89.214.157.10 (talk) 11:49, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Ohh I see what you mean, the Brazilan empire was a separate state. What you are talking about is a government in exile, not the Brazilan empire, so find RS that supports your claim. Slatersteven (talk) 12:18, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Ok i see the problem, when i talked about the brazil empire i was just talking about the land, in the last reply i was talking about brasil when it was still a portuguese colony (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colonial_Brazil).
Im sourcing other wikipedia pages because its har to find other credible websites and i can t just send you photos of my history book. Sorry if i have some English mistakes. 89.214.157.10 (talk) 14:21, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
In 1815, the Portuguese Empire controlled various territories across different continents. Here are the approximate land areas of the major regions within the Portuguese Empire at that time:
So the sum of the areas of the regions in the Portuguese Empire in 1815 is approximately 10,288,352,4 square kilometers
The actual info of the history of the portuguese empire was checked in the governamental page (https://portaldiplomatico.mne.gov.pt/sobre-portugal) and you can search every piece of info i got here just by doing a google search, the only one that wont show at first is the brazil size in 1815 because brazil is bigger now, about 8,5 million kilometers, but this was his size then.
The size of the empire was suposed to be bigger but this is the info i could gadder and is the number that some websites work with because is irrefuteble.
How do I rephrase read note E? I shall quote it then "The reason the Empire of Brazil is listed as having a larger area in 1889 than the Portuguese Empire had in 1820, despite Brazil having been a Portuguese colony, is that the Portuguese settlers only had effective control over approximately half of Brazil at the time of Brazilian independence in 1822". Slatersteven (talk) 16:20, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I dont see where is note E, that was the problem, but i know that, thats why im talking about 1815, there portugal had total control over brasil, after that Brazil was elevated to a kingdom in union with Portugal instead of a colony and after that was the independence, the portuguese empire was only around 10,288,352 square kilometers at 1815 and years before, after that it started losing colonys starting with brasil. Its in the first link of the last reply. 2001:8A0:FB96:2A00:A8D8:DFA2:29D0:DDB5 (talk) 18:03, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The things is that there is countless other sources that provide other more realible size figures to the portuguese empire, sources that were already provided many, many times. To support these scholars (mentioned in my previous comment) estimates and sources, official documents like treaty of madrid were provided and even portuguese forts in the middle of the amazon rainforest were cited such as Barcelos in Amazonas and Borba (and many others). This has been mentioned for so, so long. It's truly extraordinary that just one user manages to make his source the only one with any weight on this page.
Even if they are in the archives I can provide all the necessary sources again, but why waste time if this user called TompaDompa always prevails in the end? I would also like to add the he also tried to change the 10.4 million km2 figure to 5.5 at least on the German and portuguese page, but without any success. I wonder why users of the English Wikipedia (with more prestige) allow something like this. 109.49.227.181 (talk) 16:04, 4 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
But it has to be one of the largest... This isnt "list of all empires" its list of *largest* empires, and the german one, colonial or otherwise, is not one of them. Cristiano Tomás (talk) 13:44, 11 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I mean, going by this (non-exhaustive) list it is one of the 50 largest in history. The list used to have a minimum size threshold for inclusion but it was removed following discussion about it back in 2018. I would be in favour of reintroducing such a threshold. TompaDompa (talk) 14:50, 11 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
WP:Consensus can change), but it would need to be thought through properly ahead of time. Two obvious things that need to be worked out is what the threshold should be and what to to about entries where some estimates fall below the threshold and others above it. TompaDompa (talk) 18:28, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply
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Well as I see it there are two issues, which is the absolute size (complicated by the fact that not all periods of history have even had global power projection) or largest within a given period (that is to say, a recognized historical period, and just a self-selected range of dates. Slatersteven (talk) 18:40, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The idea behind the "Timeline of largest empires to date" and "Timeline of largest empires at the time" is to provide that historical perspective, with the main list being about absolute size. I don't think introducing different thresholds for different periods of time in the main list is a good idea (or feasible, really). TompaDompa (talk) 19:29, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
According to Murray Last in his book "The sokoto caliphate" the emirate of agadez should be included,taking in to account too that sokoto had control of oyo during a brief time(illorin-yoruba wars),parts of bornu in the initial jihad,adamawa alone being 400ksqkm and that sheku amadu pledged alligeance to the empire(emirate of hamdullahi) there is no way sokoto was only 400ksqkm
I used google earth to calculate and it gives me 2.1 millionsqkm Takruri (talk) 12:16, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The definition of empire is a major political unit ran by a central government which has complete authority over its territories, typical one of great expanse. I believe for this reason the United States should be added in the ranking below the Yuan Dynasty and above the Xiongnu Empire. The United States fits the criteria of a nation with a large expanse with a great influence. Many examples on the list are not necessarily ruled by Emperors and the definition itself is very loose and disputed. The United States at it's largest expanse in 1898 had a rounded 3.8 million Sq. Mi very similar to the current territorial size of the United States but it should be listed in 1898 because of it being the largest extent of the territory. This would put it in 10th of the largest Empires by land area. If request is accepted other data on the page can be changed such as "largest at the time" or "population rankings and percentage of world population".Cite error: A <ref> tag is missing the closing </ref> (see the help page).ColePineapple (talk) 07:31, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Not done: please provide
unverifiable so it can't be added. As Wikipedians, it does not fall onto us to decide whether or not it is an empire. The US is not commonly considered (internally or externally) to be one, so it doesn't go on the list Irltoad (talk) 08:52, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply
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US and USSR as empires
I propose that we add the USSR (at its territorial peak in 1945, following WW2) and the USA (at its territorial peak in 1899, following the Spanish-American War) to the list of largest empires in history. Both entities, despite often being referred to as "superpowers" rather than empires, meet the criteria for inclusion as empires based on their historical and geopolitical characteristics. First of all, both the USSR and the USA had vast territorial holding at their peak, and both would be considered to be very high ranking, if added to the list, with the USSR especially being in the Top 5. Both exerted substantial political and economic influence over their respective spheres of control, akin to the way historical empires dominated their regions. Their capacity to project power across continents was on par with historical empires, like the British Empire. Furthermore, many historians and political scientists have referred to both the USSR and the USA as empires in various scholarly works. Some examples are the books Overthrow by Stephen Kinzer and The Last Empire: The final Days of the Soviet Union, by Serhii Plokhy.
If you require more sources, here are some recognizable and reliable books as sources in addition to the two books already mentioned, to further prove my point on why the USA and the USSR should be added to the list of the largest empires:
1. Lenin's Tomb: The Last Days of the Soviet Empire by David Remnick
2. Revolution 1989: The Fall of the Soviet Empire by Victor Sebestyen
3. How to Hide an Empire: A History of the Greater United States by Daniel Immerwahr
The core problem is that whether the US (and USSR) is/was an empire is controversial because the precise definition of "empire" is. Whether the US should be included has been discussed as far back as 2006, and has been discussed many, many, many, many, many, many times since (non-exhaustive list of previous discussions). For what it is worth, the chief source for this article and the author of the any relatively large sovereign political entity whose components are not sovereign definition—Estonian political scientist Rein Taagepera—considers the United States to be (or at least have been) an empire by that definition. Both the US and USSR are currently mentioned on the list, albeit in footnotes as a former colony of the British Empire and the successor to the Russian Empire, respectively. TompaDompa (talk) 19:05, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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Not done: please provide unverifiable so it can't be added. As Wikipedians, it does not fall onto us to decide whether or not it is an empire. The US is not commonly considered (internally or externally) to be one, so it doesn't go on the list Irltoad (talk) 08:52, 30 June 2024 (UTC)]