Talk:Pinocchio (2022 live-action film)

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Pinocchio (upcoming Disney film) moved to Pinocchio (2022 film), Pinocchio (2022 film) moved to Pinocchio (upcoming film). Per Nardog's proposal, for which there is a rough consensus. (closed by non-admin page mover) Lennart97 (talk) 11:52, 28 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Pinocchio (upcoming Disney film) → Pinocchio (2022 film)
• Pinocchio (2022 film) → Pinocchio (2022 animated film)

– Release date known. Georgia guy (talk) 18:04, 11 November 2021 (UTC)— Relisting. —usernamekiran • sign the guestbook • (talk) 08:54, 21 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from 1st page's talk page (before the two move requests were merged)

• Comment - There is currently an article about an unrelated Netflix film at Pinocchio (2022 film), so perhaps that should be a disambiguation page instead. InfiniteNexus (talk) 18:08, 11 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  Good point; I didn't see that article. I added a requested move for it now. Georgia guy (talk) 18:15, 11 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  Oppose - Per

  WP:PRIMARYTOPIC as the page views are roughly the same, and we are too far from both release dates. InfiniteNexus (talk) 18:32, 11 November 2021 (UTC)[reply

  ]

  Comment. Given the last few words of your recent post, is it possible (not necessarily likely, but possible) that one film (it doesn't matter which one) will be in 2022 and the other in a year like 2028?? Georgia guy (talk) 18:35, 11 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  I'm not sure I understand. I'm saying that the release dates are too far away from the present to determine a

  WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, so Pinocchio (2022 film) should be a disambiguation page. InfiniteNexus (talk) 18:38, 11 November 2021 (UTC)[reply

  ]

  Actually, instead of a standalone DAB page, Pinocchio (2022 film) can just be redirected to Pinocchio (disambiguation) § Film and television productions and characters. InfiniteNexus (talk) 00:48, 12 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Move Netflix is making a Pinocchio movie for 2022, so it's best to move this article to "Pinocchio (2022 Disney film)" - ZX2006XZ (talk) 19:11, 11 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  I personally think (2022 live-action film) is a better disambiguation per

  WP:NCDAB, which states to avoid proper nouns if possible. InfiniteNexus (talk) 22:08, 11 November 2021 (UTC)[reply

  ]

• Support 2nd per nom, and Move 1st to either "
  Pinocchio (2022 Disney film)" or "Pinocchio (2022 live-action film)", per above. Paintspot Infez (talk) 22:08, 11 November 2021 (UTC)[reply
  ]

• Support per nom. InfiniteNexus (talk) 18:24, 11 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Comments after the move requests were merged

• Fixed malformed move request by requesting all associated moves here. Rotideypoc41352 (talk · contribs) 22:35, 11 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment - Maybe an option to the pages can be "Pinocchio (2022 Disney film)" and "Pinocchio (2022 Netflix film)"? BrookTheHumming (talk) 00:27, 12 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  WP:NCDAB states to avoid proper nouns if possible. InfiniteNexus (talk) 00:48, 12 November 2021 (UTC)[reply

  ]

• Comment: Don't these comments involve a certain amount of
  WP:CRYSTALBALL prediction of the future? What's wrong with keeping "upcoming" until an actual release occurs? —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 01:28, 12 November 2021 (UTC)[reply
  ]

  Per

  WP:UFILM, we use the year the film is released, no matter how long into the future, if it has a release date. "Upcoming" is only used if there's no set release date yet. —El Millo (talk) 01:33, 12 November 2021 (UTC)[reply

  ]

• Move the Disney film to "Pinocchio (2022 film)" and the Netflix film to "Pinocchio (upcoming film)". The only sourced statement in Pinocchio (2022 film) about it coming out next year in fact says On January 14, 2021, Netflix CEO Ted Sarandos revealed that the film's release could be moved to "2022 or later", whereas the Disney film is officially slated for release "Fall 2022", which is much more concrete. The Netflix film was reported to be delayed to 2022 in August, but all it's based on is a tweet by a reporter for a publication I've never heard of, who "didn't reveal the reason for the film potentially being pushed back". That 2021 has only 48 days left and we've seen no marketing obviously suggests the 2021 release is out of the window, but we have no word a 2022 release is officially set and it could very well come out in 2023, 2024, or 2025.
  If and only if it becomes clear that they are coming out in the same year should we contemplate what the disambiguators should be. If one uses "Disney" the other should use "Netflix", and if one "animated" the other "live-action". (Although the Disney one is said to be a "live-action retelling", it could very well use a lot of animation and our article defines it as "live-action-CGI animated", so we might want to wait for stills or a trailer to come out before deciding whether to disambiguate by medium). Nardog (talk) 14:45, 13 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Agree with Nardog. The article should also reflect to uncertainty of the statement, if the source says "2022 or later", the infobox and the lead section can't say it will be released in 2022. —El Millo (talk) 16:31, 13 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • I've already removed any concrete statement of it being released in 2022, as the source doesn't actually confirm it. —El Millo (talk) 16:34, 13 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Well, this completely changes things. Support Nardog's proposal. InfiniteNexus (talk) 17:33, 13 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Agree/Support Nardog's proposal per above. And IF the Netflix animated one happens to get a 2022 release date, then we can figure out whether the disambiguator should be "animated" vs. "live-action", or alternatively "Netflix" vs. "Disney" — but IF that happens. Paintspot Infez (talk) 20:01, 13 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    In contrast, if it the Netflix movie ends up with a 2023 or later release date, Nardog's proposal is permanent. (Just to be clear, this is a completion of Paintspot's vote on this RM.) Georgia guy (talk) 20:05, 13 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    Yup, exactly! Paintspot Infez (talk) 20:27, 13 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Note to closer: the second requested move was executed while this discussion was still open. I reverted it to keep this discussion clear and per the RMCD bot tag. Rotideypoc41352 (talk · contribs) 16:48, 16 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• I am considering moving
  Pinocchio (2022 Disney film). 104.222.121.71 (talk) 23:22, 17 November 2021 (UTC)[reply
  ]
  • Not possible, per the arguments laid out above, as the Netflix film isn't confirmed for 2022 and using proper nouns in disambiguations is advised against if there are other options. —El Millo (talk) 23:25, 17 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • This is only tangential, but I find that reading of
      proper nouns, as much as possible) that includes the topic, as in Mercury (element), Seal (emblem)". So it's only proscribing use of a proper noun as the overall class for disambiguation; it doesn't proscribe use of a proper noun as an additional qualifier to a generic class. Using "Disney" or "Netflix" in a parenthetical dab wouldn't run counter to the guideline as long as it ends in "film", which is the generic class to which the subjects belong. In this particular case, disambiguation by medium is indeed preferable because it's more generic, but if both films use substantial amounts of animation to such an extent that readers will plausibly be confused by disambiguation by medium, I won't rule out disambiguating by studio. But of course all this is irrelevant unless both come out in the same year. Nardog (talk) 02:59, 20 November 2021 (UTC)[reply
      ]
• Support but both should be disambiguate perhaps use BrookTheHumming's suggestions. The Disney one has 35,543 views compared with 30,132[[1]] for the Netflix one. Crouch, Swale (talk) 18:17, 22 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Again, we have no reliable sources to support moving the Netflix article to a name that includes "2022". Nardog (talk) 02:06, 23 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment. What do we have to wait for before we can close this RM?? Georgia guy (talk) 11:12, 26 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Any uninvolved editor can close this now because it's been open for well over a week. See Wikipedia:Requested moves/Closing instructions. I'm surprised Usernamekiran relisted it even though a consensus had already emerged among four of us (and you, Georgia guy, who initiated this RM, don't seem to be opposed to it either given your "completion" of Paintspot above). Nardog (talk) 11:35, 26 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved (closed by non-admin page mover) BegbertBiggs (talk) 13:50, 9 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Pinocchio (2022 film) → Pinocchio (2022 live-action film)
• Pinocchio (upcoming film) → Pinocchio (2022 animated film)

– Per the suggested titles in

• Support as proposer. —El Millo (talk) 06:32, 2 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose. The animated film's release is unknown. Georgia guy (talk) 11:18, 2 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  Comment. I didn't see the info that the animated film's release is known now. But I support that given the film's release is known now, but cannot be dis-ambiguated from the Disney live-action remake by release year, it should be titled Pinocchio (Netflix film). Georgia guy (talk) 13:59, 2 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  That goes against

  WP:MFILM. Nardog (talk) 15:00, 2 December 2021 (UTC)[reply

  ]

• Support per nominator and the consensus established in the previous discussion. InfiniteNexus (talk) 15:36, 2 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Support per my previous comments regarding views and PDAB. Crouch, Swale (talk) 18:36, 2 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Support per nom and the consensus established in the previous discussion above. Paintspot Infez (talk) 19:09, 2 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Also, Pinging past participants of the previous discussion, who might want to weigh in: @ZX2006XZ, BrookTheHumming, BarrelProof, Crouch, Swale, and 104.222.121.71: Paintspot Infez (talk) 19:14, 2 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. —usernamekiran (talk) 21:25, 10 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Pinocchio (2022 live-action film) → Pinocchio (2022 Disney film) – Move over redirect. The proposed new title identifies the film more clearly, and is, in my view, more accurate, as this is a CGI film rather than being fully live-action. Tevildo (talk) 08:40, 22 December 2022 (UTC)— Relisting. —usernamekiran (talk) 17:04, 30 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Support. There area so many Pinocchio movies coming out in 2022. This proposed disambiguator is an improvement for readers to help distinguish them apart. Rreagan007 (talk) 16:46, 22 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Shouldn't it just be Pinocchio (2022 film), especially if the

rename for the del Toro film happens? What other 2022 film simply titled Pinocchio is there? 70.163.208.142 (talk) 23:23, 22 December 2022 (UTC)[reply

]

Not unless this is the only film released in 2022 that could be called "Pinocchio", which it clearly isn't. Rreagan007 (talk) 23:30, 22 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The three 2022 films I'm aware of that could be called Pinocchio are this one,

Pinocchio (2022 animated film) which might be renamed to Guillermo del Toro's Pinocchio, and a Russian direct-to-DVD animated film officially titled Pinocchio: A True Story. There's precedent with the article titles for Disney's other live-action films. 70.163.208.142 (talk) 23:45, 22 December 2022 (UTC)[reply

]

The del Toro film's official title is just "Pinocchio" - the proposed rename of that film's article is following the title text on the poster rather than the billing block. Tevildo (talk) 00:19, 23 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Er, it's listed as "Guillermo del Toro’s Pinocchio" on Netflix, which in this case is clearly as official as it gets.--Eldomtom2 (talk) 13:19, 23 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose –
  WP:NCDAB discourages the use of proper nouns for disambiguation. This has already been discussed twice, see the two RM discussions above, I don't think there has been any change in consensus. InfiniteNexus (talk) 04:57, 24 December 2022 (UTC)[reply
  ]
• Oppose. I feel like this discussion is pointless since we have discussion last year. LancedSoul (talk) 05:05, 24 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  This specific proposal wasn't discussed. Steel1943 (talk) 14:52, 29 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  It was discussed which title to use for the Disney film, and the consensus was (2022 live-action film). InfiniteNexus (talk) 20:45, 29 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  The issue with the previous discussions was the existence of the del Toro/Netflix and Russian films, making the simple (2022 film) disambiguator insufficient. Now the del Toro film has an unambiguous title, my proposal is for a different disambiguator for the Disney film. If the "no proper nouns" rule governs this (and I'm not sure of the rationale for this rule, but presumably it's been discussed somewhere), I'd suggest Pinocchio (2022 CGI film) as an alternative. The Disney film is only "live-action" according to Disney's marketing department, I believe using "live action" as a disambiguator is misleading. Tevildo (talk) 00:06, 30 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  This film isn't the same as The Lion King (2019) which it is entirely computer-generated. This film is by definition live-action, just as Avengers: Infinity War is live-action no matter how many CG-characters there are in it. Pinocchio (2022 CGI film) would be incorrect. —El Millo (talk) 01:34, 30 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  Exactly, even if everything is a blue screen and the Pinoke is a CGI character, Tom Hanks is playing a live-action character. InfiniteNexus (talk) 18:45, 30 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Note: WikiProject Film has been notified of this discussion. —usernamekiran (talk) 17:03, 30 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Note: WikiProject Disney has been notified of this discussion. —usernamekiran (talk) 17:03, 30 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Support,
  (CC) Tbhotch^™ 00:11, 31 December 2022 (UTC)[reply
  ]

  As you pointed out youself,

  WP:NCDAB says we should steer clear from proper nouns unless absolutely necessary, and Aladdin is one of them. For Pinocchio, however, there is an alternative to using "Disney", because one is live-action and the other is animated. Regarding songs, I believe it's standard practice to disambiguate by artist rather than year/genre, but that is not the case for films. InfiniteNexus (talk) 05:18, 31 December 2022 (UTC)[reply

  ]

• Support, its more of the CGI as opposed to be live action. sjh (talk) 03:08, 31 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  @SarahJH07: you must provide a reasoning for your !vote, otherwise it will be disregarded. —El Millo (talk) 03:14, 31 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Support per User:Tbhotch reasoning — for simplicity and recognizability. But also consistency with how other Disney film pages are named → (Disney film). Mike Allen 03:34, 31 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  There are exactly two articles that end with Disney film). One is the Aladdin film mentioned by Tbhotch, for reasons I described above. The other is

  America the Beautiful (Disney film), which should definitely be moved to America the Beautiful (1958 film). InfiniteNexus (talk) 05:18, 31 December 2022 (UTC)[reply

  ]

  Found another guideline that pertains to this,

  WP:MFILM. Notice how none of the examples use proper nouns for disambiguation. InfiniteNexus (talk) 05:26, 31 December 2022 (UTC)[reply

  ]

Oppose: changing my !support to an !oppose per

WP:MFILM. It's clear, proper nouns should not be used in dabs. Mike Allen 15:36, 6 January 2023 (UTC)[reply

]

• Support First of all in agreement with the reasoning of MikeAllen, SarahJH07, Rreagan007, and Tbhotch. Secondly, this rename would help further distinguish all the Pinocchio films in 2022, as 70.163.208.142 points out. I have to fully disagree with the arguments of LancedSoul and InfiniteNexus in that this discussion is relevant now. The title change would help viewers not be confused between all of those films. That seems to be a simple enough reason to support the change. Historyday01 (talk) 01:29, 5 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose
  WP:NCDAB discourages use of proper nouns in dab. Perusing Category:Walt Disney Pictures films, which this article is categorised under, among many others, shows that the usage of 'Disney' in dab qualifier is an exception to the norm for the Disney films that have been disambiguated for one reason or another. The supporters argue that adding Disney to the dab will help readers to distinguish better that this is the Disney version, among the other 2. However, the proposed title is already redirecting to the article here, thus onwiki search will suggest the current title; Google searches using variations of 'Pinnochio 2022 Disney' throws up this article at the top; and a hatnote is on the article to notify/remind the readers that this is Disney's 2022 Pinnochio film. For the other 2 films, one has already been naturally disambiguated, while the other has no article and would hardly be noticed by the English audience due to it being in Russian (and the cloud that Russia is under at the moment) in the near future. – robertsky (talk) 14:19, 6 January 2023 (UTC)[reply
  ]
• Oppose. For those unfamiliar or less familiar with the subject, the medium is a clearer disambiguation than the production company (I didn’t know that Del Toro’s version wasn’t made by Disney until now). — HTGS (talk) 21:54, 9 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]