Talk:Vellalar

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@TheBrokenTusk: These are your references, Tambaih(2001) actually discredits Simon Chittys classification, you left out the complete citation by mistake.

Tambiah (2001) “ According to Swamy Vedachalam it is the Aryan priests who adopted the device of bringing all Tamils under three denominations: Kshatriya, Vaisya and Sudra and formulated rigid rules. He says : 2 "In this design the Aryan priests succeeded so well, that the Tamils whether kings or nobles ,rich or poor, learned or ignorant, all have become thorough slaves not only to Aryan priests but also to all who have joined the Aryan fold and bear the name of Brahmin. After this the further work of vilifying the Tamils was made much easier, and all those who in course of time, styled themselves Brahmins, discovered it to their great benefit and glory, to efface the three grades of distinction into which their predecessors classed the Tamils and to put them altogether under the general term "Sudra which means but the contemptuous menials as a whole. But in the Tamil country nobody will call himself a Sudra or a Vaisya or a Kshatriya. The Tamils are either agriculturists or traders, artisans, or labourers; every class of people follows a hereditary profession and calls itself by the name of that profession. But quite recently, a kind of mania has afflicted some classes; the people whose professions, though much useful, are looked upon as low by Brahmins and their imitators, to bring themselves under the Aryan appellation of Brahmins, Kshatriya and Vaisya, escape being called the Sudra." It is into this error that even such an erudite scholar like Simon Casie Chetty falls when in his work entitled: The Castes, Customs, Manners and Literature of the Tamils where he classifies the Vellalas under the Vaisya caste and even goes to the extent of calling the Vellalas 'The Poo Vasi Ya/ 1 The caste system in Jaffna as it exists today is ample proof of the theories advanced by Kanagasabai and Swamy Vedachalam.”

Casie(2016) Simon Casie Chitty died in 1860. After the the Vellalans were classified as shudras in all official govt census.

Desai (1975) says Vellalas “proclaim themselves” as Vaishyas

Sanghvi (1981) says there is a tradition “among the Vellalans” that there were 3 divisions of Vaishyas....

Usha (2010) is analysis of Karmandala Satakam of the Medieval Period

Thruston(2018) is just a commentary by some “VED from Victoria institutions” on the original castes and tribes published in 1909. Edgar Thurston died in 1935. Even in Thurstons original work he only states “Bhu Vaisya” was the name returned by Vellalas. (That is how they perceived themselves, not how they were classified though)

So basically all your sources either state how the vellalans perceived themselves, or about their past traditions of having once been a Vaisya caste under the Medieval Cholas.

So I’m reverting back the edit to accurately depict that they were once classified as a Vaishyas in the past. From the 1870s despite their protests they were classsified as Shudras. Cyberanthropologist (talk) 16:07, 12 May 2021 (UTC)Bold text[reply]

@Cyberanthropologist Let us examine your conclusion, then my references.

Your claim, & I quote; "Simon Casie Chitty died in 1860. After that the Vellalans were classified as shudras in all official govt census."

There are 2 censuses mentioned in the article for this, 1871 and 1901, in which the Vellalas were classified as Shudras by the British. You seem conclude that there was no Vaishya classification at all post 1870, which is wrong!

I've mentioned in the article that 1911 Travancore Government Gazette classified the Vellalas as Vaishyas. I quote:

"Of the three subdivisions among Vysias, the Vellalas belong to one that is known as Bhoo-Vysias."

citation given: Rao, C. Hayavadana Rao (2014). The Vellalas of Nanjanad, Travancore State, India. Anthropos, University of California. p. 514.

Link:https://archive.org/details/the-vellalas-of-nanjanad-travancore-state-india_202104/page/513/mode/2up?q=Bhoo+Vysias

This is a Government publication in 1911, post the 1871 and 1901 census. Hence, your claim is invalid as the 2 classifications coexisted. You cannot conclude that the Vaishya classification vanished, as I've given evidence to the contrary above. The dearth of literature still mentioning Vellalas as Vaishyas, both pre and post British rule, which I have cited (and will address below), lends credence to the fact that the Vaishya classification still exists. You cannot impose one Caste POV on other. I hope this particular issue is resolved now.

Your version of the varna status in the Introduction:

"who *were earlier* classified under the Vaishya[7][8][9]varna with 3 subdivisions, Bhu-Vaishyas[10][11][12] or agriculturalists, Go-Vaishyas or husbandsmen, and Dhana-Vaishyas[13] or merchants, and from the 1870's onwards, starting from British rule were classified as high ranking Shudras"

My version of the Varna status in the Introduction:

"who *ARE traditionally* classified under the Vaishya[7][8][9]varna with 3 subdivisions, Bhu-Vaishyas[10][11][12] or agriculturalists, Go-Vaishyas or husbandsmen, and Dhana-Vaishyas[13] or merchants, and from the 1870's onwards, starting from British rule *ARE ADDITIONALLY* classified as high ranking Shudras"

As you can see, my introduction is more correct, as:

→The Vellalas *ARE* traditionally classified as Vaishyas (Karmandala Satakam,1292, past→ LD Sanghvi, 1981, present→Busnagi Rajanan, 1992, present), & not *WERE* classified as LD Sanghvi and other sources cited till 2018, whether published or republished, fall under current literature.

→The Vellalas *ARE ADDITIONALLY* classified as as high ranking Shudras. Clearly this is an addition and not a substitution, as I proved above.

→Busnagi Rajanan also mentions in 1992, that the "Vellalars ARE referred to as Bhuvaishyas", not 'The Vellalars WERE referred to as Buvaishyas", implying this was a current practice and not a past one. Note the present tense used here (ARE), which I have capitalised.

Quote: "They ARE variously referred to as Bupaalan, Buvaisya"

Citation: Rajannan, Busnagi (1992). Salem Cyclopedia: A Cultural and Historical Dictionary of Salem District, Tamil Nadu. Institute of Kongu Studies (Salem, India). p. 340. ISBN 978-8-19002-880-6.

Link:https://books.google.co.in/books?id=Ez9uAAAAMAAJ&q=Buvaisya&redir_esc=y

→LD Sanghvi in 1981 mentions that "There IS a tradition among Vellalans", not "There WAS a tradition among Vellalans, again implying this was a current tradition, not one in the past. Note the present tense used in the Quote (IS), which I have capitalised.

Quote: "There IS a tradition among the Vellalans that there were 3 divisions of the Vaisyas : ( 1 ) Bhuvaisyas or farmers , ( 2 ) Govaisyas or husbandmen and ( 3 ) Dhanavaisyas or merchants . The last division is claimed to have given rise to the Chettis who originally belonged to the Vellala tribe."

Citation: Sanghvi, L.D. (1981). Biology of the People of Tamil Nadu. Indian Society of Human Genetics. p. 19.

Link: https://books.google.co.in/books?id=bxiAAAAAMAAJ&q=%22There+is+a+tradition+among+the+Vellalans+that+there+were+3+divisions+of+the+Vaisyas+:+(+1+)+Bhuvaisyas+or+farmers+,+(+2+)+Govaisyas+or+husbandmen+and+(+3+)+Dhanavaisyas+or+merchants+.+The+last+division+is+claimed+to+have+given+rise+to+the+Chettis+who+originally+belonged+to+the+Vellala+tribe.%22&redir_esc=y

→Desai (1975) says Vellalas “proclaim themselves” as Vaishyas

→I do not dispute the Vaishya or Shudra classification by the British, I am mentioning that they both exist today (there is no evidence to the contrary)

→Moving on, you say and I quote,

"The Manava Gotra was held earlier by the Vellalas"

This should be corrected to "the Manava gotra being held by the Vellalas" as you have given no evidence to you assumed stance of the Gotra being absent among the current Vellala population. If you do have citations to that regard, with surveys or censuses carried out which mention the absence of this Gotra, then please feel free to mention them, otherwise this conclusion is without evidence and hence semantically incorrect.

→Thank you for the correction on the Tambiah Wijayakone reference! Yes, that was mentioned by Simon Casie Chitty, hence I'm adding the Ceylon Gazetteer reference there additionally.

Reverting back to the original edit, since

1) the Shudra classification as proved above is an *ADDITIONAL* classification and not a substitution.

2) The *WERE* in the past tense used in the previous edit by @Cyberanthropologist in the instances quote is wrong and should be substituted by *ARE*

3) *Earlier* in the Manava Gotra sentence should be replaced with *being present* or *Being held*

talk) 20:11, 12 May 2021 (UTC)j[reply

]

@TheBrokenTusk

1)LD Sanghvi

"There is a tradition among the Vellalans that there were 3 divisions of the Vaisyas : ( 1 ) Bhuvaisyas or farmers , ( 2 ) Govaisyas or husbandmen and ( 3 ) Dhanavaisyas or merchants . The last division is claimed to have given rise to the Chettis who originally belonged to the Vellala tribe."

Tradition-the transmission of customs or beliefs from generation to generation, or the fact of being passed on in this way.

So LD Sanghvi is just stating what tradition the Vellalars believe in. It does not mean they were perceived as Vaisyas by society or by govt.

Rajannan, Busnagi (1992)

He just states the Kongu Vellalars are referred to 'Buvaisya' along with other terms like 'rayar', and 'Gangavansam'

This again does not equate to being classified as a Vaishya at present 'Buvaisya' is just a a name here, with roots in their past.

It's like 'rayar' means King, but it not proof of a Kshatriya status or 'Gangavansam' name being proof of their Ganga descent being accepted.

About the 'Manava Gotra'. According to your source the Mnava Gotra is just a substitute used for those who don't have a specific Gotra in ceremonies. The usage of Ammava Gotra itself is indicates the Vellalars dont have proper Gotras.

The sources for present classification of Vellalars are not convincing for the reasond I mentioned.

Cyberanthropologist (talk) 21:35, 12 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@TheBrokenTusk

I’ve gone through Edgar Thruston’s write up about Vellalans, here and it is contradicting their Vaishya status. I think you made an error here as well misled by the Snippets. Here is what the book says..

The Story of their origin is as follows. Many thousands of years ago, ​when the inhabitants of the world were rude and ignorant of agriculture, a severe drought fell upon the land, and the people prayed to Bhūdēvi, the goddess of the earth, for aid. She pitied them, and produced from her body a man carrying a plough, who showed them how to till the soil and support themselves. His offsprings are the Vellālas, who ASPIRE to belong to the Vaisya caste, since that includes Gōvaisyas, Bhūvaisyas, and Dhanavaisyas (shepherds, cultivators and merchants). A few, therefore, constantly wear the sacred thread, but most put it on only during marriages or funerals as a mark of the sacred nature of the ceremony."

In 'The Tamils eighteen hundred years ago,' Mr. V. Kanakasabhai writes that ....The Arivars were ascetics, but, of the men living in society, the farmers occupied the highest position. They formed the nobility, or the landed aristocracy, of the country. ​They were also called Vellālar.....But, in the chapter in which he describes the classes of society, the author omits all mention of the Arivar, and places the Brahmins who wear the sacred thread as the first caste. The kings, he says, very guardedly, and not warriors, form the second caste, as if the three kings Chera, Chola and Pāndy could form a caste; all who live by trade belong to the third caste. He does not say that either the kings or the merchants wear the sacred thread. Then he singles out the Vellālas, and states that they have no other they have no other calling than the cultivation of the soil. Here he does not say that the Vellālas are Sūdras, but indirectly implies that the ordinary Vellālas should be reckoned as Sūdras, and that those Vellālas who were kings should be honoured as Kshatriyas.

In an excellent summary of the Vellālas *[8] Mr. W. Francis writes as follows. "By general consent, the first place in social esteem among the Tamil Sūdra castes is awarded to them.

Cyberanthropologist (talk) 05:51, 13 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Cyberanthropologist

→Again, I see that you are quoting Edgar Thurston selectively.

In the paragraphs immediately after what you quoted, Thurston quotes the Baramahal Records which give , same as the Karmandala Satakam, give the Bhuvaishya, Govaishya and Dhanavaishya status and classification to the Vellalars.

Quote:

"The traditional story of the origin of the Vellālas is given as follows in the Baramahal Records.*"

"Murdaka Pālakulu had fifty-four sons by the daughter of the god Indra, and fifty-two by the daughter of the god Kubēra, whom he married to the one hundred and six daughters of Nala Kubarudu, the son of Kubēra, and his sons-in-law made the following agreement with him, viz., that thirty-five of them should be called Bhūmi Pālakulu, and should till the ground; thirty-five of them named Vellal Shetti, and their occupation be traffic; and thirty-five of them named Gōvu Shetlu, and their employment breeding and feeding of cattle."

Link:

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Castes_and_Tribes_of_Southern_India/Vell%C4%81la

Now compare it to Verse 34 of the Karmandala Satakam(1292-1342 CE), which I've cited in the article:

Quote:

"Gangeya Murthaka pala was born to Lord Shiva and he had two wives; the first wife had 54 sons & the second wife had 52 sons. Out of these Bhupalar, (one who practiced Agriculture) gave birth to 35 Vellala leaders, Dhanapalar, who was into trade, gave birth to 35 Vellala leaders Gopalar, (one who herded cattle)"

Link:

KARMANDALA SATAKAM: POLITICO-SOCIO-CULTURAL ANALYSIS OF MEDIEVAL TAMIL LITERATURE ON THE VELLALA COMMUNITY OF SOUTH KARNATAKA : Usha R. Vijailakshmi : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

As you can see, both the traditional records, the Baramahal records cited by Edgar Thurston, and Karmandala Satakam cited by Usha R.Vijailakshmi accord the traditional Vaishya status to the Vellalars.

Karamandala Satakam and Baramahal records ARE a part of Hindu Tradition, not WERE a part of Hindu tradition. *WERE* implies that they are no longer considered traditional records, or the tradition ceased to exist, and that is not the case here, as LD Sangvi uses *IS* in present tense. Hence ARE is the correct tense for the introduction. These ARE Traditional Records. Which currently exist. They are not absent or destroyed.

Therefore, Vellalars *ARE TRADITIONALLY* classified among the Vaishya caste with Bhuvaisya, Govaishya and Dhanavaishya subclasses.

So reverting back to the original edit for the intro, regarding the senetence with tradition in present tense.

@Cyberanthropologist Your claim, and I quote:

"Tradition-the transmission of customs or beliefs from generation to generation, or the fact of being passed on in this way.

So LD Sanghvi is just stating what tradition the Vellalars believe in. It does not mean they were perceived as Vaisyas by society or by govt."

→I have quoted above in my earlier reply that Vellalars were given the Vaishya status by the British Govt in the Travancore Government Gazette of 1911, hence your claim of "They were not perceived as Vaishyas by society or Government" is invalid. Putting the Quote from Travancore Government Gazette here again;

"Of the three subdivisions among Vysias, the Vellalas belong to one that is known as Bhoo-Vysias."

citation given: Rao, C. Hayavadana Rao (2014). The Vellalas of Nanjanad, Travancore State, India. Anthropos, University of California. p. 514.

Link:https://archive.org/details/the-vellalas-of-nanjanad-travancore-state-india_202104/page/513/mode/2up?q=Bhoo+Vysias

As for societal perception, they I have quoted in the article Busnagi Rajannan (1992) who does say in his Salem Cyclopedia that Vellalars "ARE" referred to as Vaisyas or specifically Buvaisyas, in present tense, hence this claim of yours is invalid. If it was past tense it should have been *WERE*, but that is not the case here. Again putting out the quote from Busnagi Rajannan here, from my earlier reply:

Quote: "They ARE variously referred to as Bupaalan, Buvaisya"

Citation: Rajannan, Busnagi (1992). Salem Cyclopedia: A Cultural and Historical Dictionary of Salem District, Tamil Nadu. Institute of Kongu Studies (Salem, India). p. 340. ISBN 978-8-19002-880-6.

Link:https://books.google.co.in/books?id=Ez9uAAAAMAAJ&q=Buvaisya&redir_esc=y

→You are by default accepting British censuses which as Gospel truth and Non British records quoted by Historians, like the Karmandala Satakam, as mythical. This affects the neutrality of the article. But even going by your stance, I have given proof that later British records like the Travancore Government Gazette accorded the Vellalas the Vaishya status, hence this Vaishya status of Vellalars is not in dispute, as it is mentioned in

--Traditional records- Karmandala Satakam (Quot U.Vijayalakshmi, 2010), Baramahal records (quot Thurston, 2018)

--British records- Travancore Government Gazette of 1911 , post 1871 and 1901 census. (Quot Hayavadana Rao, 2014)

→@Cyberanthropologist With regards to the Manava Gotra, you have said and I quote

"About the 'Manava Gotra'. According to your source the Mnava Gotra is just a substitute used for those who don't have a specific Gotra in ceremonies. The usage of Ammava Gotra itself is indicates the Vellalars dont have proper Gotras."

I have cited a reference which explicitly states that it was used by the three Upper castes, and not Shudras. If you have evidence that Shudras had the Manava Gotra, please free to cite evidence regarding the same. If you have evidence of the absence of the Gotra amongst current Vellalars, in the formn of censuses or surveyss please feel free to cite the same. In the absence of such citations, Reverting to the original edit for the Gotra section. Gotras are normally found among Vellalars, and are NOT absent. I quote;

"Gotra Lineage and Names The caste (jati) is an endogamous group, and gotra (clan) is an exogamous division within it. Normally, some of the larger castes, such as Rajpt, Jat, Vellala, and Brahman, have many constituent exogamous subgroups."

Citation:

Journal of Popular Culture, by the Popular culture association (Etats-Unis) & Modern language association of America. Published by Bowling Green State University, page 484.

Journal of Popular Culture - Popular culture association (Etats-Unis)., Modern language association of America. Popular literature section, Midwest modern language association (Etats-Unis). Popular culture section - Google Books

→@Cyberanthropologist Additionally, You have mentioned in the edit history that Shudras had Upanayana ceremonies as well. Yes, they did have Agamika upanayana ceremonies, Not Vedic Upanayana ceremonies which are traditionally restricted to the 3 upper castes, as I have specified in the article & given the citations for. The Vellalars are practitioners of Vedic rites who studied the Vedas. Quoting the references from the article here again:

"Verse 31 of the Karmandala Satakam states that the Vellālas of Kārmandalam belonged to the clan of the Gangas: they were both Srotriyas; practitioners of Vedic rites or Southerners"

Citation:

Vijailakshmi, Usha R. (2010). KARMANDALA SATAKAM: POLITICO-SOCIO-CULTURAL ANALYSIS OF MEDIEVAL TAMIL LITERATURE ON THE VELLALA COMMUNITY OF SOUTH KARNATAKA. Indian History Congress. p. 430.

Quote 2:

"Yajñopavita is the sacred thread which all the ' twice born ' , ie , the three uppercastes , among the Hindus begin wearing when they come of age . The rite that confers this is called upanayana .

Citation:

Kentish Coomaraswamy, Ananda (1988). Selected Letters of Ananda K. Coomaraswamy. Indira Gandhi National Centre for the Arts. p. 437.

ISBN 978-0-90562-306-1

.

If you have a citation which says Veic upanayana is traditionally given to the Shudras, please feel free to cite the source. Reverting to original in the absence of any such citation.

talk) 07:18, 13 May 2021 (UTC)[reply

]

@TheBrokenTusk Also, L.D Sanghvi is a Cancer Researcher [1][2] and not an anthropologist or historian. This is a publication by the Indian society of human genetics [3]. Add the primary source that L.D Sanghvi references. It’s probably one or the sources already discussed here. Cyberanthropologist (talk) 07:22, 13 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Also Thurston just states the “tradition of Vellalans” he DOES NOT classify them as Vaishyas or Shudras he only states what OTHER AUTHORS have classified them as.

The Bramahal record story does not even have the word ‘Vaisya’ in it.

>I have given proof that later British records like the Travancore Government Gazette accorded the Vellalas the Vaishya statu

One author Rao writes that they are Vaishyas. That is far from ‘British records’ classifying them as such. Cyberanthropologist (talk) 07:34, 13 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@TheBrokenTusk the ‘gotras’ among Jats and Vellalans are not the same as the ‘Rishi Gotras’ of the Brahmins and Vaishyas, every community has gotra like subcastes.

>The caste (jati) is an endogamous group, and gotra (clan) is an exogamous division within it. Normally, some of the larger castes, such as Rajpt, Jat, Vellala, and Brahman, have many constituent exogamous subgroups."

Yes. But Rishi gotra and clan cannot be used interchangeably

In

A gotra must be distinguished from a kula. A kula is equal to a particular family , or equal to modern day "clans", Kula does relate to lineage or caste. Cyberanthropologist (talk) 08:00, 13 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@TheBrokenTusk about Upanayana

Several texts such as Sushruta Sutrasthana, however, also include the fourth varna, the Sudras, entering schools and the formal education process,^[2] stating that the Upanayana samskara was open to everyone.^[3][4] Cyberanthropologist (talk) 08:07, 13 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Irawati Karve, an anthropologist, is one of the co authors of the book along with LD Sanghvi, as mentioned in the Google books link given. Do not selectively quote and remove references. Adding back the citation given by her.

"There is a tradition among the Vellalans that there were 3 divisions of the Vaisyas : ( 1 ) Bhuvaisyas or farmers , ( 2 ) Govaisyas or husbandmen and ( 3 ) Dhanavaisyas or merchants . The last division is claimed to have given rise to the Chettis who originally belonged to the Vellala tribe."

Link to the book which mentions Irawati Karve:

Biology of the People of Tamil Nadu - Google Books

talk) 08:26, 13 May 2021 (UTC)[reply

]

@TheBrokenTusk This karmandala Sathakam analysis[4] does not yield any results for the terms Vaishya, Vysya, Vaisya etc, it cannot be used as a source to claim that Vellalans were Vaishyas, Cyberanthropologist (talk) 08:18, 13 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The terms Bupaalan used in the Karmandala Satakam is synonymous with Buvaisya as is referenced by Busnagi Rajannan here:

Quote:

"VELLALAR , Kongu . A major caste of farmers in the district . They are variously referred to as Bupaalan , Buvaisya , Dhevar , Gangavamsam , Rayar , and most commonly as Kudiyaanavar and Vivasaayi ."

Link:

Salem Cyclopedia: A Cultural and Historical Dictionary of Salem District ... - Busnagi Rajannan - Google Books

Citation: Rajannan, Busnagi (1992). Salem Cyclopedia: A Cultural and Historical Dictionary of Salem District, Tamil Nadu. Institute of Kongu Studies (Salem, India). p. 340. ISBN 978-8-19002-880-6.

Hence, Bupaalan=Buvaisya. Do not remove academically sourced content.

talk) 08:55, 13 May 2021 (UTC)[reply

]

@TheBrokenTusk

>The terms Bupaalan used in the Karmandala Satakam is synonymous with Buvaisya as is referenced by Busnagi Rajannan here: Quote: "VELLALAR , Kongu . A major caste of farmers in the district . They are variously referred to as Bupaalan , Buvaisya , Dhevar , Gangavamsam , Rayar , and most commonly as Kudiyaanavar and Vivasaayi

This just gives the commonly used terms to refer to the Kongu Vellalar. It does not say they are “SYNONYMS”. By your logic all the other terms are interchangeable too. So does Rayar, Dhevar and Vivasaayi mean Bhuvaishya now?

You’re quoting Karmandala Satakam, and Baramhal record mentioned my Edgar thurston as citations for them being classified as Vaishyas, but no where do both of them even mention the term “Vaishya”. You’re then using Salem Cyclopedia to claim Bhuvaisya and Bhupalan are synonyms. But that’s absolutely false. Because they’re two separate terms, like multiple others mentioned there to refer to them. Cyberanthropologist (talk) 10:11, 13 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@CyberanthropologistWikipedia cannot use primary sources as quotation. The historian Usha R. Vijailakshmi has done an analysis of the Karmandala Satakam, it is not a Primary source. Other analyses and citations regarding the Karmandala Satakam are welcome. Since here analysis does not include all the verses from Karmandala Satakam, you cannot conclude that "Vaishyas are not mentioned in Karmandala Satakam".

Same goes for the Baramahal records, which are quoted partly by Edgar Thurston, this is not enough to form a conclusion that "Vaishyas are not mentioned in the Baramahal records."

See WP:RS for more information

talk) 17:27, 13 May 2021 (UTC)[reply

]

{{Admin help}} Requesting dispute resolution. As a consensus wasn’t reached.Cyberanthropologist (talk) 13:26, 13 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Administrators have many roles but adjudicating content disputes isn't one of them. To learn about your options, such as requesting a WP:Third opinion, see Wikipedia:Dispute resolution#Resolving content disputes with outside help. 78.28.55.108 (talk) 14:03, 13 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@TheBrokenTusk with your edits here [5] you have deleted my references ^[5][6][7] stating they are a century old , but they are references I provided for the statements that Vellalars have been classified as “Shudras” since colonial times. So they are bound to old as they are colonial era sources.

And along with those references you deleted a 2008 one by Pillai ^[8] where he says ”The Brahmin goes with the Vellala and others of the Sudra caste in this affair”.

This means the Brahmin of the Brahmin Varna goes with the ‘Vellala and others’ of the Sudra varna.

But okay, you disagreed with this, and claim the Vellalas are not being classed as Sudra here. Okay. But what about this edit of your then? [6]

This source you added .^[9] says “Other locals belonging to Chettiar , Goundar , Mudaliar and Vysya communities are also doing a substantial business” How are you passing this off as the Vellalar communities being classified as Vysya? Theyre not saying anything of that sort, This by no means can be twisted to imply that the Karnataka government classified the Chettiar, Gounder etc as Vaishyas. Vysa is a the name of a separate caste of Karnataka. Check this out [7], they’ve listed Vysya as a separate caste and Mudaliar, Chettiar, Pillai, separately too. here are other sources example [8] [9] Cyberanthropologist (talk) 14:40, 13 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This is precisely my point, if you do add the Pillai(2008) reference, then the 1981 census has to taken in the same semantic meaning.

"Vellala and others of the Sudra caste"

"Chettiar , Goundar , Mudaliar and the Vysya communities.

It is already cited by Busnagi Rajannan that they Gounders are Vaisyas, as I have quoted before in the earlier replies.

Adding back the 1981 Census with citation.

talk) 17:19, 13 May 2021 (UTC)[reply

]

Nammazhwar is classified as Vysya among the 4 great Vysya saints in the same article, it is clear the Census of 1981 implies the same with regard to the Vellalalr community.

The 1981 Census of India classifies the Chettiar Vellalar, Mudaliar, & Kongu Vellalas or Gounders among the Vaishya communities of Karnataka involved in substantial businesses.[10]

The

Nammazhwar

, who lived ca. 798 CE, was classified as Vysya, among the Four great Vysya saints, by the All India Vaishya Samaj in 1988.

Quote:

"VYSYA. SAINTS. NAMMALVAR. According to tradition Nammalvar is the first amongst Alvars of Ramanuja Visista Advaita Siddhantha and he was is known traditionally one who born in a Vysya family ."

Citation: Gupta, Ke.Si. (1988). Vaishyas in India, Volume 1. All India Vaishya Samaj. p. 38.

talk) 17:21, 13 May 2021 (UTC)[reply

]

@TheBrokenTusk Here look at page 607 and 633 of the 1981 census [10], it clearly, differentiates between them as separate castes in the table. I don’t know if you’re joking now. You cannot extrapolate one citation(Pillai 2008) (Gupta 1988) to another completely different one (census 1981) And draw your own conclusions. Does it say Nammalvar was a vysya in the census 1981 article [11]? NO. Cyberanthropologist (talk) 17:35, 13 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@TheBrokenTusk

Wikipedia is an encyclopaedia to present things as they are, but in the Varna sectiion you’ve drawn your own conclusions and made the following statement

The evidences of the Dvija Gotras being held by the Vellalas[89][90], along with the long documented tradition of them wearing the sacred thread[91][92][93][94][95] or Yajñopavita & the Vaidika Upanayana ceremonies having been performed by the Vellalar community,[96][97][98] which are traditionally restricted to the 3 upper varnas, namely Brahmin, Kshatriya and Vaishya respectively.[99] reaffirms their traditional Dvija Vaishya status[100] & contradicts these additional Shudra classifications of the Vellalars from the colonial period onwards[101], as Shudras do not have Dvija Gotras & are not given the Vaidika upanayana ceremonies.

This is your POV and you’re pushing it, I’m removing this and adding that

‘The Varna status of the Vellalars is a contested and complex topic, they have been classified as

Cyberanthropologist (talk) 15:49, 13 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Paraphrasing the citation instead of exact quotation, is not conclusion. I have given the proper citations, which are not altered in any way, with links. Reverting.

talk) 17:23, 13 May 2021 (UTC)[reply

]

see Khatri#Origin_and_ritual_status as an example, the Wikipedia page should just state what the sources and authors have to say. Editors cannot write their own conclusions they arrived at using the sources. Cyberanthropologist (talk) 16:12, 13 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The page cited is Irrelevant to this page in discussion.

talk) 17:23, 13 May 2021 (UTC)[reply

]

In the intro i changed They went “traditionally classified as Vaishyas” to according to their traditions they are classified as Vaishyas. Because the Varna tradition was foreign to south (As stated by Swami Vedachala, and various historians like Edgar Thurston, Gail Omvedt, James Manor etc).[11]^{[12][13][14][15]} So I changed it to ‘according to their traditions’ they are classified as Vaishyas, the Baramahal record and the Karmandala satakam don’t even mention the word vaishya. Busnagi does NOT claim that. Cyberanthropologist (talk) 16:55, 13 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Already gave prrof with citations that 1911 Government Gazette recorded them as Vaishyas, as well as in the 1981 Census. That is 2 Government references post the 1871 and 1901 census which classified them as Vaishyas, not Shudras. It is not just the view of the Vellalas, it is shared by the British and Indian Governments as well.

The 1981 Census of India classifies the Chettiar Vellalar, Mudaliar, & Kongu Vellalas or Gounders among the Vaishya communities of Karnataka involved in substantial businesses.^[16]

I've mentioned in the article that 1911 Travancore Government Gazette classified the Vellalas as Vaishyas. I quote:

"Of the three subdivisions among Vysias, the Vellalas belong to one that is known as Bhoo-Vysias."

citation given: Rao, C. Hayavadana Rao (2014). The Vellalas of Nanjanad, Travancore State, India. Anthropos, University of California. p. 514.

Link:https://archive.org/details/the-vellalas-of-nanjanad-travancore-state-india_202104/page/513/mode/2up?q=Bhoo+Vysias

This is a Government publication in 1911, post the 1871 and 1901 census. Hence, your claim is invalid as the 2 classifications coexisted.

talk) 17:33, 13 May 2021 (UTC)[reply

]

@TheBrokenTusk Here look at page 607 and 633 in the 1981 census you cite[12], it clearly lists Goundar, Mudaliar, Chettiar etct as separate castes from Vysya in the table.

The Karnataka census you cite does not state they are Vaishyas at all, you’re literally making up statements now. You cannot combine another source and reinterpret what the census means. It has to be taken verbatim. Does it classif them as Vaishyas? NO. Only the 1911 gazette states they are Vaishyas Cyberanthropologist (talk) 17:44, 13 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@C.FredHere. Phonex01 (talk) 12:19, 30 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Jpatokal: Thank you for mediating, I have requested User:TheBrokenTusk to follow your suggestion. Cyberanthropologist (talk) 03:03, 16 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Jpatokal: Thank you for the mediation. I have added the changes you suggested, and the changes to the chronological order of the Vaishya section as put forth by @Beatrix_Kiddo2004. I have reproduced the article with these changes below, for future reference, it now clearly reflects the Vaishya status traditionally, historically and as per government records.

Varna Classification

The Varna status of the Vellalars is a contested and complex topic, as the Vellalars are traditionally classified under the Vaishya^{[1][2][3][4][5][6][7][8][9][10][11][3][12][13]}

Shudras,^{[14][15][16][17][18][19][20][21]}

by various sources. The traditional records, views of historians and Government records have been elaborated below in chronological order.

As Vaishyas

Historical Vellala personalities documented as Vaishyas

J. V. Chelliah a popular Tamil scholar who translated the Ten Idylls into English states that Paṭṭiṉappālai (Commonly dated between 1st to 2nd Century CE) has mentions that Vellalars belonged to the Vysya caste, They followed the 4 Vedas, they were commonly involved in agriculture, taking care of cattle, trade and other business pursuits.^[22] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sastri676 (talk • contribs) 09:40, 6 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Sekkizhar's Periya Puranam, dated 12th century CE, is described as a Vellala of the Vaishya caste^[25]

.

The

Nammazhwar's grandfather, Tiruvazhmarban Pillai, also a Vellala, is mentioned as a Vysya.^[28]

Rangappa Thiruvengadam Pillai, who recorded a Diary of events in the Tamil region from 1761-1768, belonged to the Vaishya caste.[29]

@Sastri676:, could you tell why the Varna section is required in this article? It is not clear what is the use of this section? I mean, how does it matter if the Vellalar are Vaishya or not? Are there are any restrictions due to this Varna? Should they behave in a certain way when they come across other castes or other Varna like Brahmins? I assume "Sastri" is Brahmin Varna, so does it mean Sastri people are higher Varna than Vellalar? Is this why you want to add this information to Vellalar page so that everyone can understand that "Sastri" junta are higher/superior to Vellalars? Speak frankly so everyone can understand why this section is required as I find a concerted effort by a group of editors who are striving repeatedly to tag different non-Brahmin castes as belonging to Shudra Varna/Vaishya Varna etc. Nittawinoda (talk) 13:13, 28 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Upanayana ceremonies

The Karmandala Satakam by Ãrai Kiḻãr, dated 1292-1342 C.E, during the reign of

Hoysala King Veera Ballala III, states in verse 52:

"The Vellalas of Karmandalam belonged to the Mānava Gotra & practiced the rite of upanayana or wearing the sacred thread."^[30]

As per the Apastambha Shrauta Sutra, The Mānava

castes.^[31]

The

Vaidika Upanayana ceremony and wear the sacred thread or Yajñopavita.^[38] He also mentions his Upanayana ceremony conducted by a Brahmin from Punjab and his son Rama's Upanayana ceremony in Bengal.^[39][40] Edgar Thurston quotes H.A Stuart's commentary on the Vellalas, where he mentions the Vaishya subdivisions of the Vellalas as shepherds, cultivators and merchants and a few who therefore constantly wear the sacred thread, with most putting it on only during marriages or funerals as a mark of the sacred nature of the ceremony."^[41]

Traditional records

The various Puranas mentioning the Vaishya status accorded to the Vellalars during the reign of the Chola emperors, is elaborated in the Abhidana Chintamani.[42]

According to Anthropologist

Chettis who originally belonged to the Vellala tribe.^[1]

Historian Usha R. Vijailakshmi observes that Verse 34 of the Karmandala Satakam, composed ca.1292 CE, connects the origin of the Gangas to the origin of the

Karakatha Vellalas of Southern Karnataka, as follows: "Gangeya Murthaka pala was born to Lord Shiva and he had two wives; the first wife had 54 sons & the second wife had 52 sons. Out of these Bhupalar, (one who practiced Agriculture) gave birth to 35 Vellala leaders, Dhanapalar, who was into trade, gave birth to 35 Vellala leaders Gopalar, (one who herded cattle) and one Agamurthi gave birth to 1 Vellala leader".^[43]

The terms Bhupālar, Dhanapālar, & Gopālar refer to the 3 subdivisions of

Chetti

sub-divisions, and cites the duties of the Bhu-Vaishya sect of Vellalars as mentioned in a verse of the 9th century CE text, the Purapporul Venba Maalai: "

(1) tilling,

(2) cow-breeding,

(3) trade,

(4) studying the Vedas,

(5) worship of sacrificial' fire, and

(6) giving aims.[46]

Usha R. Vijailakshmi notes that the same legend from the Karmandala Satakam

Vishwakarma

, attained the titles

1) Bhūmi Pālakudu or saviour of the earth,

2) Ganga kulam or descendant of the river Ganga, and

3)Murdaka Pālakudu or protector of the plough, alluding to his being born with a ploughshare in his hand,

and it was ordained that a person of the caste should put the crown on the king's head at the coronation. They next invested him with the yegnōpavitam or string, and, in order that he might propagate his caste, they gave him in marriage the daughters of the gods Indra and Kubēra. ^[49] Murdaka Pālakulu had fifty-four sons by the daughter of the god Indra, and fifty-two by the daughter of the god Kubēra, whom he married to the one hundred and six daughters of Nala Kubarudu, the son of Kubēra, and it was ordained that;

• thirty-five of them should be called Bhūmi Pālakulu, and should till the ground;
• thirty-five of them named Vellal Shetti, and their occupation be traffic; and
• thirty-five of them named Gōvu Shetlu, and their employment breeding and feeding of cattle.^[50]

Edgar Thurston also cites H.A. Stuart's commentary which corroborates the Baramahal records, where he mentions the Vellalas sub-divisions of Vaishyas as

Vaishyas or shepherds, cultivators and merchants.^[41]

Busnagi Rajannan states that the

Vaishyas.^[7]

Government records (1834-1981)

Chetties belong to the Dhana-Vaishya^[53] caste.^[6]

The 1871[54] and 1901 British Government Censuses which put the Vellalas in the Sudra category was met with protests by the Vellala community^[55][56] who petitioned against the move by citing the Manusmriti, as they are traditionally classified as Vaishyas^[57][58][7], with the traditional records dating as far back as 1292^[59][60]. The evidences of the Dvija Gotras being held by the Vellalas^[61][31], along with the long documented tradition of them wearing the sacred thread^{[33][34][35][36][37]} or Yajñopavita & the Vaidika Upanayana ceremonies having been performed by the Vellalar community^{[62][38][39][63]}, which are traditionally restricted to the 3 upper varnas, namely Brahmin, Kshatriya and Vaishya respectively^[32], reaffirms their traditional Dvija Vaishya status^{[1][2][3][4][5][6][7]} & contradicts these additional Shudra classifications of the Vellalars from the colonial period onwards^[16], as Shudras do not have Dvija Gotras & are not given the Vaidika upanayana ceremonies.

Post the 1871 and 1901 Census, The Travancore Government Gazette of 1911 documents the

Kongu Vellalars or Gounders alongside the other Vysya communities of Karnataka for their involvement in substantial businesses.^[65]

Modern historians like K.A.Nilakanta Sastri, R.S.Sharma and S.Thiruvenkatachari have stated that the Vellalars cannot be equated with Shudras.[66]^[67][68][69] A.R. Desai notes in that the Vellalas follow a more ritualistic , " Sanskritic ” style of life and proclaim themselves as Vaishyas.^[70]

References

1. ^ ^{a b c d} Karve, Irawati (1981). Biology of the People of Tamil Nadu. Indian Society of Human Genetics. p. 19.:"There is a tradition among the Vellalans that there were 3 divisions of the Vaisyas : ( 1 ) Bhuvaisyas or farmers , ( 2 ) Govaisyas or husbandmen and ( 3 ) Dhanavaisyas or merchants . The last division is claimed to have given rise to the Chettis who originally belonged to the Vellala tribe."
2. ^ ^{a b} Vijailakshmi, Usha R. (2010). KARMANDALA SATAKAM: POLITICO-SOCIO-CULTURAL ANALYSIS OF MEDIEVAL TAMIL LITERATURE ON THE VELLALA COMMUNITY OF SOUTH KARNATAKA. Indian History Congress. p. 432.:"Verse 34: Gangeya Murthaka pala was born to Lord Shiva and he had two wives; the first wife had 54 sons & the second wife had 52 sons. Out of these Bhupalar, (one who practiced Agriculture) gave birth to 35 Vellala leaders, Dhanapalar, who was into trade, gave birth to 35 Vellala leaders Gopalar, (one who herded cattle) and one Agamurthi gave birth to 1 Vellala leader"
3. ^ ^{a b c d e} Nambiar, P.K. (1961). Village Survey Monographs, 13 Kadukkara, Part VI, Vol-IX, Census Year 1961 (PDF). India: Office of the Registrar General. pp. 7–8. "These people are considered as high caste Hindus and Mr. Thurston classifies them as a sub-sect of Vaisyas. According to Mr. Thurston these people belong to the sub-sect known as Buvaisyas as distinguished from Thanavaisyas. The former are cultivators by tradition and the latter are traders by profession. The word Vellala is believed to be derived from the word Velanmai meaning cultivation and thereby indicating their traditional occupation."
4. ^ ^{a b c d} Census Division, India (1965). Madras: Volume 9, Part 6, Issue 13 of Census of India 1961, India Census Division. India: Office of the Registrar General. pp. 7–8. considered as high caste Hindus and Mr . Thurston classifies them as a sub - sect of Vaisyas . According to Mr . Thurston these people belong to the sub - sect known as Buvaisyas as distinguished from Thanavaisyas . The former are cultivators by tradition and the latter are traders by profession . The word Vellala is believed to be
5. ^ ^{a b c} Thurston, Edgar. Castes and Tribes of Southern India.: "The traditional story of the origin of the Vellālas is given as follows in the Baramahal Records.*" "Murdaka Pālakulu had fifty-four sons by the daughter of the god Indra, and fifty-two by the daughter of the god Kubēra, whom he married to the one hundred and six daughters of Nala Kubarudu, the son of Kubēra, and his sons-in-law made the following agreement with him, viz., that thirty-five of them should be called Bhūmi Pālakulu, and should till the ground; thirty-five of them named Vellal Shetti, and their occupation be traffic; and thirty-five of them named Gōvu Shetlu, and their employment breeding and feeding of cattle."
6. ^
   ISBN 978-1358116018
   .
7. ^
   ISBN 81-206-1362-7
   .:"Velalar... Vellalar...Cultivator caste, i. e., same as Vaisya, p. lxxxiii."
8. ISBN 978-0-35301-211-0
   ."(1) tilling, (2i cow-breeding, (3) trade, (4) studying the Vedas, (5) worship of sacrificial' fire, and (G) giving aims. Here the Vellalas are spoken of as Bhu-Vaisyas." "trade in grains was formerly followed by a class of Vellalas called Kula-Vanikar or Vellan- Chettis"
9. ^ ^{a b} Cite error: The named reference google514 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
10. ISBN 978-8-19002-880-6
    .:"VELLALAR , Kongu . They are variously referred to as Bupaalan , Buvaisya, Dhevar, Gangavamsam, Rayar and most commonly vivasayee and kudiyaanavar."
11. ^ ^{a b} Nambiar, P.K. (1961). Village Survey Monographs, 13 Kadukkara, Part VI, Vol-IX, Census Year 1961. India: Office of the Registrar General. pp. 7–8. "These people are considered as high caste Hindus and Mr. Thurston classifies them as a sub-sect of Vaisyas. According to Mr. Thurston these people belong to the sub-sect known as Buvaisyas as distinguished from Thanavaisyas. The former are cultivators by tradition and the latter are traders by profession. The word Vellala is believed to be derived from the word Velanmai meaning cultivation and thereby indicating their traditional occupation."
12. ^
    ISBN 978-1-98077-710-6
    .:"Bhu vaisya (earth Vaisya).—A name returned by some Nattukottai Chettis and Vellalas."
13. ISBN 978-0-35301-211-0
    ."(1) tilling, (2i cow-breeding, (3) trade, (4) studying the Vedas, (5) worship of sacrificial' fire, and (G) giving aims. Here the Vellalas are spoken of as Bhu-Vaisyas." "trade in grains was formerly followed by a class of Vellalas called Kula-Vanikar or Vellan- Chettis"
14. ^ Cite error: The named reference :4 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
15. ^ Cite error: The named reference :5 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
16. ^
    ISBN 978-0-52155-247-9
    .:”Dominant castes like the land - controlling Vellalar , whose practices were compatible with Brahminic ideas of purity , were considered high - ranking Sudras in the government system”
17. ISBN 9789124276454
    .:”In Tamil Nadu the traditional caste society is in practice reduced into Brahmins and Sudras, kith a large third group classified in administrative terms as Scheduled and Backward classes.) Prominent among the Sudras are Vellalar , Chettiar and Gounder”
18. ISBN 9788173041594
    .:”Manual of Tinnevelly district tabulates the composition of the village population as follows : Brahmans , 10 families ; Vellalar and other ' Sudra ' landholders ...”
19. ISBN 9788180940392
    .:”The Brahmin goes with the Vellala and others of the Sudra caste in this affair”
20. ^ Narayana, M. G. S. (1977). Re-interpretations in South Indian History. India, South: College Book House. p. 15.:”They mention Parpan Andanar or Marayor (Brahmins), Aracar ( Kings or Kshatriyas ) , Vanikar ( Merchants or Vaisya ) , and Vellalar ( Cultivators or Sudra ) , in many places“
21. ^ Thurston, Edgar. Castes and Tribes of Southern India.
22. ^ https://archive.org/details/pattupattutentamilidyllschelliahj.v._108_Q/page/n81/mode/2up
23. ^ Smith, Ronald Morton (2002). Developments in Indian Religion. Canadian Scholars' Press. p. 33.:"Appar was a vaisya"
24. ISBN 978-0-27090-885-5
    .:"He was a Vellala or Vaisya by birth ."
25. ISBN 978-8-12150-044-9
    .:"EYARKON KALIKAMAR Caste : vaishya ( vellala )"
26. ^ Gupta, Ke.Si. (1988). Vaishyas in India, Volume 1. All India Vaishya Samaj. p. 38.:"VYSYA. SAINTS. NAMMALVAR. According to tradition Nammalvar is the first amongst Alvars of Ramanuja Visista Advaita Siddhantha and he was is known traditionally one who born in a Vysya family ."
27. ISBN 978-9-38901-269-9
    . Nammalwar belonging to the Vellala, Vaishya community
28. ^ Ramesh, M.S. (2000). 108 Vaishnavite Divya Desams: Divya desams in Malai Nadu and Vada Nadu. T.T. Devasthanams. p. 95.:"A vysya by name Tiruvazhmarba was married to lady by name Brindha . They had no children . They prayed to the Lord of Tirupatisaram and were blessed with a daughter named ******* Udaya nangai ."
29. ^ Stephen, S. Jeyaseela (2001). The Diary of Rangappa Thiruvengadam Pillai: 1761-1768. India: IIES. p. xix.:"Rangappa Thiruvengadam Pillai was a vaishya "
30. ^ Vijailakshmi, Usha R. (2010). KARMANDALA SATAKAM: POLITICO-SOCIO-CULTURAL ANALYSIS OF MEDIEVAL TAMIL LITERATURE ON THE VELLALA COMMUNITY OF SOUTH KARNATAKA. Indian History Congress. p. 432.
31. ^
    ISBN 978-9-00409-060-6
    ."ĀśśS I 1,3,5f . prescribes gotra - s derived from rājarși - s ( such as Mānava , Aila , Paurūrava ) for kings , or Mānava for all the three upper castes if the exact gotra is unknown ; vaisya - s sometimes used Bhālandana , Vātsapra or Mārkhila"
32. ^
    ISBN 978-0-90562-306-1
    .:"Yajñopavita is the sacred thread which all the ' twice born ' , ie , the three uppercastes , among the Hindus begin wearing when they come of age . The rite that confers this is called upanayana ."
33. ^ ^{a b} Journal of Kerala Studies, Volume 32. University of Kerala. 2005. p. 134.:"a few of the Vellalas constantly wear the sacred thread"
34. ^ ^{a b} Raghavan, M.D (1971). Tamil Culture in Ceylon: A General Introduction. Kalai Nilayam. p. 129.:"A few therefore constantly wear the sacred thread"
35. ^ ^{a b} Record Office, Madras (India : State) (1957). Tanjore District Handbook. Superintendent Government Press. p. 156.:"They generally style themselves as Chettiars or Mudaliars and engage themselves partly in trade and partly in agriculture . The men , except that they wear the sacred thread and paint on their foreheads a sect - mark which is like the ordinary Vaishnava mark"
36. ^ ^{a b} B. S. Baliga (Rao Bahadur.), Madras (India : State) (1957). Madras District Gazetteers, Volume 1. Superintendent, Government Press. p. 156.:"They generally style themselves as Chettiars or Mudaliars and engage themselves partly in trade and partly in agriculture . The men , except that they wear the sacred thread and paint on their foreheads a sect - mark which is like the ordinary Vaishnava mark"
37. ^ ^{a b} Venkataramaiah, K. M. (1996). A Handbook of Tamil Nadu. International School of Dravidian Linguistics. p. 424.:"others being Sara ! ! ı , Kaikkutti and Coliya ( cõliya ) . They do not intermarry . They are vegetarians and wear the sacred thread . They have the title Pillai"
38. ^
    ISBN 978-0-90562-306-1
    .:"Our people are Vellalas , originally from Tanjore , but long settled in N . Ceylon ( Jaffna ) and then also in Colombo . They are Saivas , they are given upanayana and wear the thread ."
39. ^
    ISBN 978-0-90562-306-1
    .:"We do wear the yajñopavita ; I have received upanayana from a Brahman in the Punjab , and shall resume wearing the thread when we come to India . I suggested that you should accept the offer to give you upanayana in Bengal"
40. ISBN 978-0-90562-306-1
    .:"We do wear the yajñopavita ; I have received upanayana from a Brahman in the Punjab , and shall resume wearing the thread when we come to India . I suggested that you should accept the offer to give you upanayana in Bengal"
41. ^ ^{a b} Thurston, Edgar. Castes and Tribes of Southern India.: "a severe drought fell upon the land, and the people prayed to Bhūdēvi, the goddess of the earth, for aid. She pitied them, and produced from her body a man carrying a plough, who showed them how to till the soil and support themselves. His offsprings are the Vellālas, who aspire to belong to the Vaisya caste, since that includes Gōvaisyas, Bhūvaisyas, and Dhanavaisyas (shepherds, cultivators and merchants). A few, therefore, constantly wear the sacred thread, but most put it on only during marriages or funerals as a mark of the sacred nature of the ceremony."
42. ^ Iravīntiran̲, Na (2003). இந்துத்துவம், இந்து சமயம், சமூக மாற்றங்கள். கவுட் விஷன். p. 112.:"வெள்ளாளர் வைசியர்கள்"
43. ^ Cite error: The named reference auto3 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
44. ISBN 978-8-19002-880-6
    .:"VELLALAR , Kongu . They are variously referred to as Bupaalan , Buvaisya, Dhevar, Gangavamsam, Rayar and most commonly vivasayee and kudiyaanavar.”
45. ISBN 978-0-19517-146-4
    .
46. ISBN 978-0-35301-211-0
    ."(1) tilling, (2i cow-breeding, (3) trade, (4) studying the Vedas, (5) worship of sacrificial' fire, and (G) giving aims. Here the Vellalas are spoken of as Bhu-Vaisyas." "trade in grains was formerly followed by a class of Vellalas called Kula-Vanikar or Vellan- Chettis"
47. ^ Vijailakshmi, Usha R. (2010). KARMANDALA SATAKAM: POLITICO-SOCIO-CULTURAL ANALYSIS OF MEDIEVAL TAMIL LITERATURE ON THE VELLALA COMMUNITY OF SOUTH KARNATAKA. Indian History Congress. p. 432.:"Verse 34: Gangeya Murthaka pala was born to Lord Shiva and he had two wives; the first wife had 54 sons & the second wife had 52 sons. Out of these Bhupalar, (one who practiced Agriculture) gave birth to 35 Vellala leaders, Dhanapalar, who was into trade, gave birth to 35 Vellala leaders Gopalar, (one who herded cattle)"
48. ^ Vijailakshmi, Usha R. (2010). KARMANDALA SATAKAM: POLITICO-SOCIO-CULTURAL ANALYSIS OF MEDIEVAL TAMIL LITERATURE ON THE VELLALA COMMUNITY OF SOUTH KARNATAKA. Indian History Congress. p. 432.:"Interestingly, this legend is dealt with in certain detail by Edgar Thurston in his seminal work —- Castes and Tribes of Southern India, in which he discusses about Vellala community of Tamilnadu."
49. ^ Thurston, Edgar. Castes and Tribes of Southern India.: "First Bhūmi Pālakudu or saviour of the earth, because he was produced by her. Second, Ganga kulam or descendant of the river Ganga, by reason of having been brought forth on her banks. Third, Murdaka Pālakudu or protector of the plough, alluding to his being born with a ploughshare in his hand, and they likewise ordained that, as he had lost his diadem, he should not be eligible to sovereignty, but that he and his descendants should till the ground with this privilege. that a person of the caste should put the crown on the king's head at the coronation. They next invested him with the yegnōpavitam or string, and, in order that he might propagate his caste, they gave him in marriage the daughters of the gods Indra and Kubēra."
50. ^ Thurston, Edgar. Castes and Tribes of Southern India.: "Murdaka Pālakulu had fifty-four sons by the daughter of the god Indra, and fifty-two by the daughter of the god Kubēra, whom he married to the one hundred and six daughters of Nala Kubarudu, the son of Kubēra, and his sons-in-law made the following agreement with him, viz., that thirty-five of them should be called Bhūmi Pālakulu, and should till the ground; thirty-five of them named Vellal Shetti, and their occupation be traffic; and thirty-five of them named Gōvu Shetlu, and their employment breeding and feeding of cattle."
51. ISBN 978-8-19002-880-6
    .:"VELLALAR , Kongu . A major caste of farmers in the district . They are variously referred to as Bupaalan , Buvaisya , Dhevar , Gangavamsam , Rayar , and most commonly as Kudiyaanavar and Vivasaayi ."
52. ISBN 978-9-55926-116-2
    .:"he classifies the Vellalas under the Vaisya caste and even goes to the extent of calling the Vellalas the "Poo Vasi Ya""
53. ISBN 978-9-55926-116-2
    .:"Simon Casie Chetty seems to think that the Colombo Chetties belong to the Tana Vasiya Caste”
54. ISBN 978-0-19-908872-0
    .
55. ^ Kingship and political practice in colonial India, by Pamela G. Price, p.61: "...when government census officers placed Vellalar in the Sat-Sudra or Good Sudra category in its 1901 census, Vellalar castemen petitioned this designation, protesting this designation.
56. ^ Cite error: The named reference price1996 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
57. ^ Karve, Irawati (1981). Biology of the People of Tamil Nadu. India: Indian Society of Human Genetics. p. 19. There is a tradition among the Vellalans that there were 3 divisions of the Vaisyas : ( 1 ) Bhuvaisyas or farmers , ( 2 ) Govaisyas or husbandmen and ( 3 ) Dhanavaisyas or merchants . The last division is claimed to have given rise to the Chettis who originally belonged to the Vellala tribe.
58. ISBN 978-1-35811-601-8
    .
59. ^ Vijailakshmi, Usha R. (2010). KARMANDALA SATAKAM: POLITICO-SOCIO-CULTURAL ANALYSIS OF MEDIEVAL TAMIL LITERATURE ON THE VELLALA COMMUNITY OF SOUTH KARNATAKA. India: Indian History Congress. p. 430. The work connects the origin of the Gangas to the origin of the Karkatha Vellalas of Karnataka. Gangeya Murthaka pala was born to Lord Shiva and he had two wives; the first wife had 54 sons & the second wife had 52 sons. Out of these Bhupalar, (one who practiced Agriculture) gave birth to 35 Vellala leaders, Dhanapalar, who was into trade, gave birth to 35 Vellala leaders Gopalar, (one who herded cattle) and one Agamurthi gave birth to 1 Vellala leader.
60. ^ Vijailakshmi, Usha R. (2010). KARMANDALA SATAKAM: POLITICO-SOCIO-CULTURAL ANALYSIS OF MEDIEVAL TAMIL LITERATURE ON THE VELLALA COMMUNITY OF SOUTH KARNATAKA. India: Indian History Congress. p. 430. Verse 52: The Vellalas of Karmandalam belonged to the Mānava Gotra & practiced the rite of upanayana or wearing the sacred thread.
61. ^ Vijailakshmi, Usha R. (2010). KARMANDALA SATAKAM: POLITICO-SOCIO-CULTURAL ANALYSIS OF MEDIEVAL TAMIL LITERATURE ON THE VELLALA COMMUNITY OF SOUTH KARNATAKA. India: Indian History Congress. p. 430. Verse 52: The Vellalas of Karmandalam belonged to the Mānava Gotra & practiced the rite of upanayana or wearing the sacred thread.
62. ^ Vijailakshmi, Usha R. (2010). KARMANDALA SATAKAM: POLITICO-SOCIO-CULTURAL ANALYSIS OF MEDIEVAL TAMIL LITERATURE ON THE VELLALA COMMUNITY OF SOUTH KARNATAKA. India: Indian History Congress. p. 430. Verse 52: The Vellalas of Karmandalam belonged to the Mānava Gotra & practiced the rite of upanayana or wearing the sacred thread.
63. ISBN 978-0-90562-306-1
    .:"We do wear the yajñopavita ; I have received upanayana from a Brahman in the Punjab , and shall resume wearing the thread when we come to India . I suggested that you should accept the offer to give you upanayana in Bengal"
64. ^ Rao, C. Hayavadana Rao (2014). The Vellalas of Nanjanad, Travancore State, India. Anthropos, University of California. p. 514.:"Of the three subdivisions among Vysias, the Vellalas belong to one that is known as Bhoo-Vysias."
65. ^ B. K. Das, India., Director of Census Operations, Karnataka (1983). Census of India, 1981: Karnataka, Volume 10, Part 2. Karnataka, India: Controller of Publications, Government of India. p. 163.{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link):"Other locals belonging to Chettiar , Goundar , Mudaliar and Vysya communities are also doing a substantial business ."
66. ISBN 978-8-17304-561-5
    .:"The vellālars cannot be equated with the shudras of the north since some of them had the right of marriage with members of the royal families and a section of them known as veļirs were local rulers and feudatories"
67. ISBN 978-8-17304-561-5
    .:"The vellālars cannot be equated with the shudras of the north since some of them had the right of marriage with members of the royal families and a section of them known as veļirs were local rulers and feudatories"
68. ^ S. Thiruvenkatachari (1978). Studies in Arts and Sciences. India: Ram Bros : available from SISSWP Society. p. 330.:"The fourth division was not the Sudra, but the peasant or the Vellala - who was not the low menial that he was in the north-Indian caste system. The Vellala was as much respected as the Brahmin or Kshatriya."
69. ^ Indira Gandhi; Indira Gandhi Abhinandan Samiti (1975). The Spirit of India: volumes presented to Shrimati Indira Gandhi by the Indira Gandhi Abhinandan Samiti. India: Asia Pub. House.:"The fourth division was not the Sudra, but the peasant or the Vellala - who was not the low menial that he was in the north-Indian caste system. The Vellala was as much respected as the Brahmin or Kshatriya."
70. ISBN 978-8-17154-013-6
    .:"Vellalas follow a more ritualistic , " Sanskritic ” style of life and proclaim themselves as Vaishyas ."

Presentation of Varna Section

@TheBrokenTusk:

Third Opinion has been provided here for dispute resolution. Let’s do what Japtokal has suggested. You take care of the pro Vaishya arguments, I’ll do the anti. Cyberanthropologist (talk) 02:58, 16 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@TheBrokenTusk: Clean up the references for the Vaishya staus, 90% of your sources are basically reiterations of Edgar Thurston’s classification. Most state ‘Edgar Thurston classified....”. Edgar Thurston isn’t reliable according to WP:RS.[13] You deleted my sources stating because they were of the colonial era here. [14]. So uphold the same level of quality for the pro vaishya section.Cyberanthropologist (talk) 07:53, 22 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

User:Beatrix_Kiddo2004 is a sock puppet of User:TheBrokenTusk, and he’s POV pushing by reverting all my edits, he simply undid 35 of them at once.[15] This simply undoes all the effort and hard work that goes into editing process. 3rd opinion was given by a senior editor after dispute resolution appeal[16], but the user is ignoring all that and is adamantly misrepresenting and POV pushing. Cyberanthropologist (talk) 11:44, 23 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

tagging @Sitush: With these edits [17], User:Beatrix_Kiddo2004 who is a sock puppet of User:TheBrokenTusk, is trying to suppress my complaints to the Admins regarding his sockpuppetry, vandalism and POV pushing. He is undoing my discussion on the Talk Page to prevent me from exposing him Cyberanthropologist (talk) 13:10, 23 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@

talk) 13:26, 23 May 2021 (UTC)[reply

]

The user @cyberanthropologist is making baseless claims against my account, consistent with wikipedia's policy of Bullying. Tag

WP:BULLY He has also vandalised the wikipedia page by removing relevant academic sources cited in a chronological order. Restoring to last best version. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Beatrix Kiddo2004 (talk • contribs) 13:17, 23 May 2021 (UTC)[reply

]

This request for help from administrators has been answered. If you need more help or have additional questions, please reapply the {{admin help}} template, or contact the responding user(s) directly on their own user talk page.

With these edits [18], User:TheBrokenTusk and User:Beatrix_Kiddo2004 are again deleting Talk Page evidence of their sock puppetry. Cyberanthropologist (talk) 13:36, 23 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@

WP:SPI. Otherwise, keep a lid on it.--Bbb23 (talk) 13:44, 23 May 2021 (UTC)[reply

]

@Bbb23:, sorry about the multiple admin calls, my talk page discussion was deleted once on purpose (it was not an accident as Beatrix Kiddo2004 didn’t just undo it, but reverted it precisely to an older version of another user japotalk here[19]). So I thought that the previous admin call would be useless and redid it again, then the same thing happened a second time, when Beatrix Kiddo2004 deleted evidence on the pretense or reverting his earlier ‘mistake’. Sorry for bothering you Cyberanthropologist (talk) 14:03, 23 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Please add Nanjil Vellalar also

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

2409:4072:E88:18AE:8944:E514:EFC1:AF2A (talk) 16:10, 9 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 16:18, 9 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 22 March 2022

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Please include Nanjil Nadu for Pillai Rakeshthanuu (talk) 17:08, 22 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 17:15, 22 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Paste "varna classification" section into the main from the talk page. Anthrodox (talk) 08:08, 20 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Vellalar (Claiming kshatriyas status through surya vansh and yadu vansh):

Vel (Sacrifices or Petty ruling) + lalar (A word that refers to someone who does or belong to a job) = Ruler or Sacrificer.

Ancient kings were had surname as "vel"

1. Ilangi vel 2. Iruku vel 3. Vel pari

See velir.

Disclosure: All Paarpans well played with dravidian history. Most of them are keep portrating as dravidiyan ruling classes and moovendhar kings are sudras. From Tolkapiyam to current scholars. Indian history congress head is a brahmin and most of the historians of south india are brahmins. Reddy, naidu, nayaka, nair and many non-brahmin upper castes were framed as sat-sudras deliberately. If all of them were sat sudras, then who were kshatriyas and vaishyas in south India's ancient times? None of the dravidian castes belong to aryans.

They were insisting their varna system into south india hardly. So, please don't consider any brahmanical records to verify your caste origin.

Add your references and non-brahmin sources here to enhance the vellalar page.

Semi-protected edit request (Important)

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Move or paste the "Varna classification" section into the main page from talk page. Impartiality is important to the section. (talk) 05:32, 21 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 10:45, 22 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

It was already done. You may see @Jpatokal suggestion about varna classification. Anthrodox (talk) 05:58, 26 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Disagree - Varna, a Hindu classification should not be added as the content purports to show or group all Vellalar into a single varna like Vaishya. The Vellalar come from diverse backgrounds (separate endogamous communities) just like doctors or engineers. We cannot say that all doctors have the same qualities. Along the same lines, classifying all Vellalar as Vaishya or Shudra does not make sense as the different Vellalar have performed/still perform different functions. Some have been rulers, some have been priests, some have been merchants etc. The varna classification also applies only to Hindus but there are Vellalar who practise Jainism and Christianity. So for these reasons I am against adding the varna classification section in the article page. Nittawinoda (talk) 07:23, 26 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Sure, Remove the varna classification section on the main page or add your suggestion with the valid refs and sources to the existing page. The section is already been there. Anthrodox (talk) 02:26, 27 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Have removed the section. As I said before, there is no use adding more detail to it as the section does not apply to all Vellalar. So better not to have it at all. Nittawinoda (talk) 04:47, 27 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

You're right. Vellalar has their own hierarchy system like nair and newar caste system. Anthrodox (talk) 00:03, 28 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion on Flagged section

The following section at the beginning of the article has been flagged for neutrality and I intend to remove it if no one objects.

"Despite being a relatively lowly group, they were dominant communities in Tamil agrarian societies for 600 years until the decline of the Chola empire in the 13th century, with their chieftains able to practise state-level political authority after winning the support and legitimisation of Brahmins and other higher-ranked communities with grants of land and honours."

If someone feels this statement should not be removed then discuss here and state your reasons. Nittawinoda (talk) 06:26, 27 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Vel-l-alar is just a term used for large landowners. Vel means mann - land. Alar means owner or lord. Within vellalar (landlords), there were 2 groups known as Vellalar (lords of floods) and kaaralar (lords of clouds). Present day scholars changed the real meaning of vellalar. Since 2017, they were using the Vellalar term for agriculturists and farmer.

According to earlier copper plates and inscriptions, vellalar gifted their lands for most of the temples of Tamilnadu. They were involved in donations and land grants too.

As another etymology, "vel" means a ruler and "alar" means a one who does that or belongs to.

Also, this page should mention "Vellalars were practicing the rite of upanayana" as mentions of karma mandala satakam. A photo of 1837, they were wearing sacred thread and edgar thurston mentioned they do wear sacred threads in marriages and some functions. In present days marriages of vellalars, The priest who commences and conducts the marriage ties a yellow thread that is known as the Kanganam around the wrists of the to-be-w. This is supposed to be a sacred thread and is then tied on the wrist of the bride right before the wedding ceremony commences.

Some groups of vellalars have similar culture of vokkaliga. Vokkaliga mentions "As community of warriors and landlords" in the page.

The current summary of vellalar page should be modified. Anthrodox (talk) 01:26, 28 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The famous archaeologist, henry heras written about vellalars and kaaralars in The velalas in mohanjo daro. Anthrodox (talk) 03:27, 28 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The disputed section suggests that the Vellalar were a relatively lowly group and because of that their chieftains supposedly won the support of Brahmins by making donations. Why are the Vellalar a lowly group? What does this statement even mean? Were they lowly because they were poor or were they lowly because of their profession? Some of them were employed as officers in the Chola government because of their own abilities and not because they donated lands and made grants to Brahmins. The Vellalar donated lands and made grants to the Tamil temples of their own free will and not to appease Tamil Smartha, the so called Brahmins. The word Brahmin used to define Tamil Smartha is such a misnomer but that is an argument for another day. Have the Vellalar donated or done anything to appease Tam-Brahms in the last century? The relation between Tam-Brahms and Vellalar was the same back then as it is today. The disputed paragraph is a nice joke. Nittawinoda (talk) 10:00, 7 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@

WP:POV tag in the lead without a prior discussion. This could be disruptive. Additionally, you deleted the varna section without a good justification, which I have since reinstated. Content on Wikipedia should not be removed just because you disagree with it or because you think it's wrong, unless the claim is not verifiable. Dr.Pinsky (talk) 17:44, 7 August 2022 (UTC)[reply

]

@Dr.Pinsky: The disputed content in the lead is not supported by the cited source. The source talks about Superior and Inferior Vellalar and that some chieftains who belonged to the low Vellalar group made grants to brahmins. But the editor has twisted the content to mean that all the Vellalar were of low status. The last statement is not supported by source. Nittawinoda (talk) 09:11, 8 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Nittawinoda Varna section should be neutralized if you add varna classification into the main page. Many sources were claiming they were vaishyas and some sources were marking them as sat-shudras. According to edgar and Hiltebeitel, aryan varna system inapplicable to dravidians due to their non-vedic practices. There were 3 fold varnas only.

1. Brahmin 2. Non-brahmin 3. Dalit

Present days scholars are being copied by edgar thurston sources. According to wikipedia's policy, It is not a valid reference. In velir varalaru, Ragav iyengar (Tamil aryan brahmin) wrote "Velir or vellalars are kshatriyas in aryan varna system". Hence, aryan varna system is inapplicable to dravidian region.

Many sources were marking vellalars were kshatriyas, vaishyas and sat-sudras. To prevent edit wars and biased vandalism, All sources should be included into the main page if you add varna classification. Anthrodox (talk) 12:47, 11 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Reliable source to support that the Vellalar were high ranked

• Indira Viswanathan Peterson (2014). Poems to Siva The Hymns of the Tamil Saints. Princeton University Press.

• What the source states about Vellalar (Page 54)?

"From the Chola period on membership in the Tamil Saiva cult stabilized, being composed predominantly of prosperous nonbrahmin peasant castes who ranked high in the regional caste hierarchy. The non-brahmin Vellalas had always played an important part in the cult's leadership."

• What it states about donation and land grants (Page 54)?

"As prosperous landowners and farmers, Tamil Saivas have always given economic support to the major Siva temples in the Tamil country-side and have been able to shape and influence the administration and the ritual system of these temples."

• What it states about Smartha? (Page 54-55)

"In the last two centuries especially in the Kaveri Delta, where both Brahmin and Vellalas have traditionally been powerful, Smarta Brahmins have vied with Tamil Saivas for ideological influence in the temple. As early as the age of the Nayanars and certainly by the age of the Siddhanta philosophy, a large number of Tamil Brahmins had adopted the sychretistic philosophy and pratice known as Smarta traditionalism. Moving away from sectarian polarities, they not only adopted the worship of all the major deities of Hinduism but combined their strongly Sanskritic religious orientation with aspects of Tamil Saiva and Vaishnava devotiionalism and the ascetic philosphy of Sankaracharya. Apart from this eclecticism, the Tamil Smartas identify themselves as Saivas and worship in Siva temples".

• What it states about the status of Vellalar vis-a-vis the Smartha Brahmins? (Page 45)

"However, in the Tamil region (Vellala) Mutaliyar, Pillai and certain other non-brahmin caste groups have enjoyed rank and prestige equal to that of Brahmins. In some social and ritual contexts, the Vellalas have greater power, authority and status than the Brahmins".

Nittawinoda (talk) 09:11, 8 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Nittawinoda: Wikipedia is not for caste promotion. Wikipedia is supposed to be a neutral source of information, neither good nor bad, simply reflecting what reliable sources say about the subject without editorial bias. Further, I'm not convinced of Peterson's authority on South Asian social groups. Thanks. Dr.Pinsky (talk) 15:30, 11 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 28 August 2022

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

In South India, There were essentially three classes: Brahmin, non-Brahmin, and Dalit.^{[1][2][3][4][5]} Vellalars were considered non-Brahmin Upper castes.^[6][7][8]

Although, Vellalars were Vaishya both traditionally and historically. ^{[9][10][11][12]} According to historian C. Hayavadana Rao, Vellalars belong to Bhu-Vaishya along with the classification of the Travancore state and Sri Lanka.^[13][14][15]

Reliable additions for the "Varna classification" section. Phonex01 (talk) 18:24, 28 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit extended-protected}} template. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 18:28, 28 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

It's already done in the talk page (above) and these sources accepted by editors of other pages such as Vokkaliga and Kamma. Phonex01 (talk) 18:43, 28 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Nittawinoda Can you look up this with some admins? User:Phonex01 (talk) 11:56, 30 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Phonex01: Which section above shows the asserted consensus? —C.Fred (talk) 12:11, 30 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done: Third opinion did not favour mentioning Vaishya only; it said to indicate Vaishya and Shudra. —C.Fred (talk) 12:23, 30 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Above the "Varna classification" section. @Jpatokal was mediating. Both are accepted. Don't remove sat-sudra classification of the main page. Just requesting to add this along with them. These(present request) sources are reliable and compliances with wikipedia's standards. Phonex01 (talk) 12:27, 30 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This may fit in your terms and wikipedia's terms.

===Varna Classification===

In South India, There were essentially three classes: Brahmin, non-Brahmin, and Dalit.^{[16][17][18][4][19]} Vellalars were considered non-Brahmin Upper castes.^[20][21][22]

Although, Vellalars were Vaishya both traditionally and historically. ^{[23][10][24][25]} According to historian C. Hayavadana Rao, Vellalars belong to Bhu-Vaishya along with the classification of the Travancore state and Sri Lanka.^[26][27][28]

During the British colonial period, the Vellalars who were tillers of the soil and held offices pertaining to land, were ranked as Sat-Sudra in the 1901 census; with the Government of Madras recognising that the 4-fold division (four varnas) did not describe the South Indian, or Dravidian, society adequately.^[29] Following the arrival of Dutch missionaries in the early 18th century, some Vellalar converted to Christianity.^[30] Phonex01 (talk) 13:24, 30 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

So you're suggesting to add two paragraphs to the Varna Classification section? —C.Fred (talk) 15:45, 30 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Kinda yes. These sources should be shown to the users. My claim is there's no varna system in south india. As the first and last paragraphs,

The four fold vedic system of caste hierarchy did not exist during sangam period (from c. 6th century BCE to c. 3rd century CE). Vellalar and karalar were aristocratic classes. ^{[31] [32]}

Above resources are reliable than the Pamela G.price's notes. Pamela was copied from Edgar thurston source which is an unreliable source, according to wikipedia's standards. The same Edgar thurston were classifying vellalars belong to vaishya caste on the source. But still, all of south medias do mention "Non-Brahmin castes such as...", if they wanna point out a caste. They never use vaishya like sanskrit term. ^[33] Phonex01 (talk) 19:24, 30 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

No, above sources are not reliable. Neither Rao nor Chitty meets

WP:RS. You need to cite reliable secondary sources (post 1950) for caste or varna related topics. Furthermore, please avoid using Google Books snippet view, as we lack context and may end up misinterpreting the sources. Dr.Pinsky (talk) 08:36, 31 August 2022 (UTC)[reply

]

Addendum: In southern part of India, there were just three distinct classes: Brahmins, non-Brahmins and lower castes (or dalits). The Kshatriyas and Vaishyas, the two intermediary "twice born" varnas, did not exist. The Brahmins, at the pinnacle of the social hierarchy regarded all non-Brahmin castes as sat-(respectable) Shudras or clean shudras.[34] Dr.Pinsky (talk) 08:49, 31 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

References

1. S2CID 145053341
   : "When recognition of a regional varna scheme has been unavoidable—such as the tripartite division into Brahmins, non-Brahmins, and Untouchables in much of the South— it has been explained in terms of a historical corruption or breakdown of the standard four-class system, rather than regarded as a functional entity in its own right."
2. ISBN 978-0-521-47862-5
   .
3. ISBN 9788124107669
   .
4. ^
   ISBN 978-0-521-22692-9
   .
5. ISBN 0691088950
   .:"Aside from Brahmans and Rajputs, few actual caste groups could be readily correlated with varna distinctions and few of these castes could be found across wide parts of India. Dominant caste groups in most regions were specific to those regions, as for example the Marathas of Bombay, the Vellalars of Madras, and the Vokkaligas of Mysore. Even the assumption that occupational differentiation provided both the most ready key to caste distinction and the most usable measure of caste significance for imperial purposes flew in the face of the recognition that formal caste titles only rarely indicated true occupation"
6. ISBN 9780253005854
   .:"By 1650s non-Brahmin upper caste Vellalar were..."
7. ^ Indian Govt, Reserve Bank of India (1954). All-India Rural Credit Survey: The general report. Reserve bank of India. p. 76.:"higher non-brahmin castes of Vellalar"
8. ISBN 9780195622768
   .:"The landlords came from the high ranking Non-Brahman caste of Vellalar..."
9. ^ Karve, Irawati (1981). Biology of the People of Tamil Nadu. Indian Society of Human Genetics. p. 19.:"There is a tradition among the Vellalans that there were 3 divisions of the Vaisyas : ( 1 ) Bhuvaisyas or farmers , ( 2 ) Govaisyas or husbandmen and ( 3 ) Dhanavaisyas or merchants . The last division is claimed to have given rise to the Chettis who originally belonged to the Vellala tribe."
10. ^ ^{a b} Vijailakshmi, Usha R. (2010). KARMANDALA SATAKAM: POLITICO-SOCIO-CULTURAL ANALYSIS OF MEDIEVAL TAMIL LITERATURE ON THE VELLALA COMMUNITY OF SOUTH KARNATAKA. Indian History Congress. p. 432.:"Verse 34: Gangeya Murthaka pala was born to Lord Shiva and he had two wives; the first wife had 54 sons & the second wife had 52 sons. Out of these Bhupalar, (one who practiced Agriculture) gave birth to 35 Vellala leaders, Dhanapalar, who was into trade, gave birth to 35 Vellala leaders Gopalar, (one who herded cattle) and one Agamurthi gave birth to 1 Vellala leader"
11. ISBN 978-0-35301-211-0
    ."(1) tilling, (2i cow-breeding, (3) trade, (4) studying the Vedas, (5) worship of sacrificial' fire, and (G) giving aims. Here the Vellalas are spoken of as Bhu-Vaisyas." "trade in grains was formerly followed by a class of Vellalas called Kula-Vanikar or Vellan- Chettis"
12. ISBN 978-1-35811-601-8
    . [Note: Publication byline shown as 'Casie Chitty'; usually shown elsewhere as 'Casie Chetty'].
13. ^ Rao, C. Hayavadana (1916). The Vellalas of Nanjanad, Travancore State, India. Anthropos. p. 514.:"Vellalas belong to vaishya..."
14. ^ Travancore (Princely State), , V. Nagam Aiya (1906). The Travancore State Manual. India: Travancore government Press. p. 378. [Vellalas belong to one that is known as Bhoo-Vaishya. Some Vellalars are engaged in Dhana Vaishya sects.]{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)
15. ISBN 978-1-35811-601-8
    . [Note: Pu vaishyas are commonly called vellalars].
16. S2CID 145053341
    : "When recognition of a regional varna scheme has been unavoidable—such as the tripartite division into Brahmins, non-Brahmins, and Untouchables in much of the South— it has been explained in terms of a historical corruption or breakdown of the standard four-class system, rather than regarded as a functional entity in its own right."
17. ISBN 978-0-521-47862-5
    .
18. ISBN 9788124107669
    .
19. ISBN 0691088950
    .:"Aside from Brahmans and Rajputs, few actual caste groups could be readily correlated with varna distinctions and few of these castes could be found across wide parts of India. Dominant caste groups in most regions were specific to those regions, as for example the Marathas of Bombay, the Vellalars of Madras, and the Vokkaligas of Mysore. Even the assumption that occupational differentiation provided both the most ready key to caste distinction and the most usable measure of caste significance for imperial purposes flew in the face of the recognition that formal caste titles only rarely indicated true occupation"
20. ISBN 9780253005854
    . By 1650s non-Brahmin upper caste Vellalar were...
21. ^ Reserve Bank of India (1954). All-India Rural Credit Survey: The general report. Reserve Bank of India. p. 76. higher non-brahmin castes of Vellalar...
22. ISBN 9780195622768
    . The landlords came from the high ranking Non-Brahman caste of Vellalar...
23. ^ Karve, Irawati (1981). Biology of the People of Tamil Nadu. Indian Society of Human Genetics. p. 19.:"There is a tradition among the Vellalans that there were 3 divisions of the Vaisyas : ( 1 ) Bhuvaisyas or farmers , ( 2 ) Govaisyas or husbandmen and ( 3 ) Dhanavaisyas or merchants . The last division is claimed to have given rise to the Chettis who originally belonged to the Vellala tribe."
24. ISBN 978-0-35301-211-0
    ."(1) tilling, (2i cow-breeding, (3) trade, (4) studying the Vedas, (5) worship of sacrificial' fire, and (G) giving aims. Here the Vellalas are spoken of as Bhu-Vaisyas."

    "trade in grains was formerly followed by a class of Vellalas called Kula-Vanikar or Vellan- Chettis"

25. ISBN 978-1-35811-601-8
    . [Note: Publication byline shown as 'Casie Chitty'; usually shown elsewhere as 'Casie Chetty'].
26. ^ C. Hayavadana Rao (1916). The Vellalas of Nanjanad, Travancore State, India. Anthropos. p. 515. Travancore state.. Vellalas belong to vaishya...
27. ^ Travancore (Princely State), , V. Nagam Aiya (1906). The Travancore State Manual. India: Travancore government Press. p. 378. [Vellalas belong to one that is known as Bhoo-Vaishya. Some Vellalars are engaged in Dhana Vaishya sects.]{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)
28. ISBN 978-1-35811-601-8
    . [Note: Pu Vaishyas are commonly called vellalars... vellalan chettiars belong to dhana vaishyas].
29. ISBN 9780521052290
    . ...when government census officers placed Vellalar in the Sat-Sudra or Good Sudra category in its 1901 census, Vellalar castemen petitioned this designation, protesting this designation..
30. ^ Etherington, Norman (ed.). Missions and Empire. p. 112.
31. ^ Nath sen, Sailendra (1999). Ancient Indian History and Civilization. Routledge. p. 205. The four fold vedic system of caste hierarchy did not exist during sangam period. The society was organised by occupational groups living apart from each other... Then there were aristocratic classes like Vellalar and Karalar...
32. ^ "Reservations in Tamil Nadu: Then and now". The Hindu (in Tamil). Retrieved 17 December 2021. the larger part of the Tamil society remained casteless. With state formation and the emergence of ruling houses such as Pallavas, Pandyas, Cheras and Cholas, since the sixth century A.D., there was a wave of migration of Brahmins from northern India... As a quid pro quo for the conferment of the status of Kshatriyas on Vellalas, who were until then treated on a par with Vaishyas, the Vellala rulers gifted prime land in major river valley tracts to Brahmins...
33. ^ "Reservations in Tamil Nadu: Then and now". The Hindu (in Tamil). Retrieved 17 December 2021. Those involved in Justice Party politics were drawn mostly from the upper strata of non-Brahmin castes such as Mudaliars, Chettiars and Vellalars among Tamils, Rajus, Reddys and Naidus (Kammas) among Telugus and Nairs among Malayalis.
34. ^ Raychaudhuri, Tapan; Habib, Irfan; Kumar, Dharma; Habib, Professor Centre of Advanced Study in History Irfan; Desai, Meghnad (1982). "The Cambridge Economic History of India: Volume 1, C.1200-c.1750". CUP Archive.

 Not done: Without judgment on the proposed edit, editor was blocked as a sock. If someone really wants to entertain this suggested change, they're more than welcome to it. Izno (talk) 20:23, 4 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 30 November 2022

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Editors kindly add this updated information to the varna section.

===Varna Classification===

In South India, There were essentially three classes: Brahmin, non-Brahmin, and Dalit.^{[1][2][3][4][5]} Vellalars were considered non-Brahmin Upper castes.^[6][7][8]

Although, Vellalars were Vaishya both traditionally and historically. ^{[9][10][11][12]} According to some scholars, Vellalars belong to Bhu-Vaishya along with the classification of the Travancore state and Sri Lanka.^{[13][14][15][16]}

During the British colonial period, the Vellalars who were tillers of the soil and held offices pertaining to land, were ranked as Sat-Sudra in the 1901 census; with the Government of Madras recognising that the 4-fold division (four varnas) did not describe the South Indian, or Dravidian, society adequately.^[17] Following the arrival of Dutch missionaries in the early 18th century, some Vellalar converted to Christianity.^[18]

However, the major sub-sects of Vellalar such as Gounder, Pillai, and Mudaliyar were analogous to the Kshatriyas of the Brahmanical religion. ^{[19][20][21][22][23]}

As Varna (Hinduism) concept, vaishyas are agriculturists and traders. This is^[24] secondary source that supports the vaishya and shudra classifications. The varna classification started in the 1800s and the British government recognized there was no proper 4-fold Vedic varna system in south India. Also, many Vellalar were Jains. Later British colonial period, Govt of India classified all respectable castes of south India are non-Brahmins. Periyavelar99 (talk) 18:04, 30 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit extended-protected}} template. User has been indeffed, closing edit request. TGHL ↗ 🍁 18:30, 1 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I think this was the same user. I read similar points of these on Vokkaliga and Reddy. Editors should proceed this request. Exhistorian (talk) 19:22, 1 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

References

1. S2CID 145053341
   : "When recognition of a regional varna scheme has been unavoidable—such as the tripartite division into Brahmins, non-Brahmins, and Untouchables in much of the South— it has been explained in terms of a historical corruption or breakdown of the standard four-class system, rather than regarded as a functional entity in its own right."
2. ISBN 978-0-521-47862-5
   .
3. ISBN 9788124107669
   .
4. ISBN 978-0-521-22692-9
   .
5. ISBN 0691088950
   .:"Aside from Brahmans and Rajputs, few actual caste groups could be readily correlated with varna distinctions and few of these castes could be found across wide parts of India. Dominant caste groups in most regions were specific to those regions, as for example the Marathas of Bombay, the Vellalars of Madras, and the Vokkaligas of Mysore. Even the assumption that occupational differentiation provided both the most ready key to caste distinction and the most usable measure of caste significance for imperial purposes flew in the face of the recognition that formal caste titles only rarely indicated true occupation"
6. ISBN 9780253005854
   . By 1650s non-Brahmin upper caste Vellalar were...
7. ^ Reserve Bank of India (1954). All-India Rural Credit Survey: The general report. Reserve Bank of India. p. 76. higher non-brahmin castes of Vellalar...
8. ISBN 9780195622768
   . The landlords came from the high ranking Non-Brahman caste of Vellalar...
9. ^ Karve, Irawati (1981). Biology of the People of Tamil Nadu. Indian Society of Human Genetics. p. 19.:"There is a tradition among the Vellalans that there were 3 divisions of the Vaisyas : ( 1 ) Bhuvaisyas or farmers , ( 2 ) Govaisyas or husbandmen and ( 3 ) Dhanavaisyas or merchants . The last division is claimed to have given rise to the Chettis who originally belonged to the Vellala tribe."
10. ^ Vijailakshmi, Usha R. (2010). KARMANDALA SATAKAM: POLITICO-SOCIO-CULTURAL ANALYSIS OF MEDIEVAL TAMIL LITERATURE ON THE VELLALA COMMUNITY OF SOUTH KARNATAKA. Indian History Congress. p. 432.:"Verse 34: Gangeya Murthaka pala was born to Lord Shiva and he had two wives; the first wife had 54 sons & the second wife had 52 sons. Out of these Bhupalar, (one who practiced Agriculture) gave birth to 35 Vellala leaders, Dhanapalar, who was into trade, gave birth to 35 Vellala leaders Gopalar, (one who herded cattle) and one Agamurthi gave birth to 1 Vellala leader"
11. ISBN 978-0-35301-211-0
    ."(1) tilling, (2i cow-breeding, (3) trade, (4) studying the Vedas, (5) worship of sacrificial' fire, and (G) giving aims. Here the Vellalas are spoken of as Bhu-Vaisyas."

    "trade in grains was formerly followed by a class of Vellalas called Kula-Vanikar or Vellan- Chettis"

12. ISBN 978-1-35811-601-8
    . [Note: Publication byline shown as 'Casie Chitty'; usually shown elsewhere as 'Casie Chetty'].
13. ISBN 9783030970307
    .
14. ^ C. Hayavadana Rao (1916). The Vellalas of Nanjanad, Travancore State, India. Anthropos. p. 515. Travancore state.. Vellalas belong to vaishya...
15. ^ Travancore (Princely State), , V. Nagam Aiya (1906). The Travancore State Manual. India: Travancore government Press. p. 378. [Vellalas belong to one that is known as Bhoo-Vaishya. Some Vellalars are engaged in Dhana Vaishya sects.]{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)
16. ISBN 978-1-35811-601-8
    . [Note: Pu Vaishyas are commonly called vellalars... vellalan chettiars belong to dhana vaishyas].
17. ISBN 9780521052290
    . ...when government census officers placed Vellalar in the Sat-Sudra or Good Sudra category in its 1901 census, Vellalar castemen petitioned this designation, protesting this designation..
18. ^ Etherington, Norman (ed.). Missions and Empire. p. 112.
19. ^ Levinson, David, ed. (1992). Encyclopedia of World Cultures: South Asia. G.K. Hall. p. 305.
20. ^ Pandian, Jacob, ed. (1987). Caste, Nationalism and Ethnicity An Interpretation of Tamil Cultural History and Social Order. Popular Prakashan. p. 110.
21. ^ Gauthama, Raj, ed. (2020). Dark Interiors Essays on Caste and Dalit Culture. SAGE Publications. p. 53.
22. ^ Nath sen, Sailendra (1999). Ancient Indian History and Civilization. Routledge. p. 205. The four fold vedic system of caste hierarchy did not exist during sangam period. The society was organised by occupational groups living apart from each other... Then there were aristocratic classes like Vellalar and Karalar...
23. ^ "Reservations in Tamil Nadu: Then and now". The Hindu (in Tamil). Retrieved 17 December 2021. the larger part of the Tamil society remained casteless. With state formation and the emergence of ruling houses such as Pallavas, Pandyas, Cheras and Cholas, since the sixth century A.D., there was a wave of migration of Brahmins from northern India... As a quid pro quo for the conferment of the status of Kshatriyas on Vellalas, who were until then treated on a par with Vaishyas, the Vellala rulers gifted prime land in major river valley tracts to Brahmins...
24. ISBN 9783030970307
    .

Semi-protection needed

This request for help from administrators has been answered. If you need more help or have additional questions, please reapply the {{admin help}} template, or contact the responding user(s) directly on their own user talk page.

The page has many flaws (one sided view and author's personal views) and insufficient information. It's most of the information (including summary) was contributed by 2 editors only. The two were fighting like kids in the talk page as you can see. You can compare the page with

Rajputs, Khatri, Vokkaliga and many dominant society of Indian regions. These pages are well constructed by genuine editors from various backgrounds. Literally, The Vellalar

page summary is author's pov (their claim starts "seems to be rather"). The page need major improvements, cleanups and more sources.

The Wikipedia's purpose is to benefit readers by acting as a widely accessible and free encyclopedia that contains information on all branches of knowledge. If the page can be edited by admins only, what's the need of wikipedia editors? The information should be contributed by volunteers and genuine editors without any restrictions and opinionated moderators rivalry.

Thank you. Exhistorian (talk) 18:13, 1 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This article(not "page") is not admin-only protected, it is

consensus. 331dot (talk) 18:38, 1 December 2022 (UTC)[reply

]

I'm ready to start consensus here. But editors of the most content adds were blocked by mods due to their actions. For addendum, is consensus really important? It needs broader rewrite and cleanups too. Because, the article is important for many Tamil historical studies and its culture. I only can't do improve the article. Need some help from genuine editors. Exhistorian (talk) 19:09, 1 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 28 December 2022

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Despite being a relatively lowly group, they were dominant communities in Tamil agrarian societies for 600 years until the decline of the Chola empire in the 13th century, with their chieftains able to practice state-level political authority after winning the support and legitimisation of Brahmins and other higher-ranked communities with grants of land and honors.

to

From the Sangam period to the Chola period of Indian history (A.d. 600 to 1200), state-level political authority was in the hands of relatively low, Vellalar chieftains, who endowed local and nonlocal Brahmins with land and honors, and were in turn legitimized by them.

additional context (request) on the first para of the social status:

They were more orthodox than the Brahmins in their religious practices.^[1][2] The Vellalar nobles had marriage alliances with Chola royal families.^[3][4] Bhumihar means (maharaja) (talk) 15:05, 29 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

 Done Aaron Liu (talk) 13:33, 4 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

References

1. ^ Madras (India : State). Record Office (1957). Tanjore District Handbook (in Slovenian). Superintendent Government Press. p. 128. Retrieved 2022-12-28.
2. ^ Rajaraman, P. (1988). The Justice Party: A Historical Perspective, 1916-37. Poompozhil Publishers. p. 17. Retrieved 2022-12-28.
3. ^ Gough, K. (1978). Dravidian Kinship and Modes of Production. Publication (Indian Council of Social Science Research). Indian Council of Social Science Research. p. 10. Retrieved 2022-12-28.
4. ^ University of Travancore; University of Kerala (1948). Journal of Indian History. p. 274. Retrieved 2022-12-28.

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 16 January 2023

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

In the post-Sangam period section, add this requested line after "... dynasty called Kalabhras." to support the context.

Historians believe that the Kalabhras belonged to the Vellalar community of warriors who were possibly once the feudatories of the Cholas and the Pallavas.^[1] 42.105.220.218 (talk) 17:26, 16 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

 Done ~ Eejit43 (talk) 14:45, 17 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

References

1. ISBN 978-0-19-908832-4
   . Retrieved 2023-01-16.

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 23 January 2023

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

This is the basic necessary helpful overview (Compiled from already existing and reliable sources) of the article to add to the history section but above the Sangam literature on the main article.

Historians consider the Vellalars originated from the

Yadu dynasty.^{[1][2][3][4][5]} Historically, they held various occupational positions from petty kings and aristocrats, governors of provinces, and commanders of armies, to ordinary agricultural landlords and traders.^[6][7][8][9] Vino678777 (talk) 14:21, 23 January 2023 (UTC)[reply

]

References

1. ISBN 978-1-4008-7780-5
   . Retrieved 2023-01-23. Historian M. Arokiaswamy "Origin of the Vellalas, 1955, p 25" stresses that Vellalar originated as Velir chieftains of the sangam age.
2. ISBN 978-81-7835-664-8
   . Retrieved 2023-01-23. An Ay chief described as vennir vellala, not as Yadhava. Although Vellalas themselves trace their descent from yadu. Thus Ay velirs are vellalas.
3. JSTOR 614004
   . Retrieved 2023-01-23. The Nankudi vellalars directly trace their ancestors to the Irunkovel line of Velir kings.
4. JSTOR 43482996
   . Retrieved 2023-01-23. To conclude that, then: the Velir families who, as states in the preceding pages, emigrated from velpulam and settled as rulers in several parts of the south, and the great community of Velalas who were their followers and kinsmen have...
5. ^ Sivaratnam, C. (1964). An Outline of the Cultural History and Principles of Hinduism. Stangard Printers. p. 36. Retrieved 2023-01-23. Velirs or Vellalas were landed agricultural aristrocrats.
6. JSTOR 43482996
   . Retrieved 2023-01-23. Vellalar of these, the former, i,e, Uluvithunbor were employed by the reigning monarchs as governors of provinces and districts, and commanders of their armies and they were entitled to high privileges... being born of the families of the petty kings and nobles, bride givers to royals ... {{cite journal}}: line feed character in |quote= at position 286 (help)
7. ^ Sivaratnam, C. (1964). An Outline of the Cultural History and Principles of Hinduism. Stangard Printers. p. 269. Retrieved 2023-01-23. Vellalas were landed agricultural aristocrats and associated with kings and nobles in blood...
8. JSTOR 44147510
   . Retrieved 2023-01-23. Vellalas held eight kind of positions, they were: Being a King, a Prince, Kosar...
9. ISBN 9780521040198
   . The Vellalar were dominant secular aristocratic caste under the Chola kings, providing the courtiers, most of the army officers.... , Thondamandala Vellalar subjects there to have been traditionally "landlords, warriors, and officials of the state class".

 Not done: Duplicated. Lemonaka (talk) 09:31, 30 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 26 January 2023

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Simplified helpful important overview (Compiled from already existing and reliable sources) of the article to add to the "History" section but above the "In Sangam literature" on the main article.

Historians consider the Vellalars originated from the

Yadu dynasty.^{[1][2][3][4][5]} Historically, the Vellalars were the class of landed aristocrats^[6][7] and held various hereditary occupations such as petty kings and nobles, provincial governors, army commanders, court officials, warriors, landlords, and agriculturists.^[8][9][10] Vino678777 (talk) 03:56, 26 January 2023 (UTC)[reply

]

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit extended-protected}} template. Lizthegrey (talk) 03:30, 16 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

References

1. ISBN 978-1-4008-7780-5
   . Retrieved 2023-01-23. Historian M. Arokiaswamy "Origin of the Vellalas, 1955, p 25" stresses that Vellalar originated as Velir chieftains of the sangam age.
2. ISBN 978-81-7835-664-8
   . Retrieved 2023-01-23. An Ay chief described as vennir vellala, not as Yadhava. Although Vellalas themselves trace their descent from yadu. Thus Ay velirs are vellalas.
3. JSTOR 614004
   . Retrieved 2023-01-23. The Nankudi vellalars directly trace their ancestors to the Irunkovel line of Velir kings.
4. JSTOR 43482996
   . Retrieved 2023-01-23. To conclude that, then: the Velir families who, as states in the preceding pages, emigrated from velpulam and settled as rulers in several parts of the south, and the great community of Velalas who were their followers and kinsmen have...
5. ^ Sivaratnam, C. (1964). An Outline of the Cultural History and Principles of Hinduism. Stangard Printers. p. 36. Retrieved 2023-01-23. Velirs or Vellalas were landed agricultural aristrocrats.
6. ^ Cupramaṇyam, K.N. (1987). Tiruvalluvar and His Tirukkural. English series. Bharatiya Jnanpith Publication. p. 66. Retrieved 2023-01-25. The dominant social group as depicted by Tolkapiyam was the class of landed aristocrats. These landed aristocrats or Vellalas constituted the most important section of the society.
7. ^ Sivaratnam, C. (1964). An Outline of the Cultural History and Principles of Hinduism. Stangard Printers. p. 269. Retrieved 2023-01-23. Vellalas were landed agricultural aristocrats and associated with kings and nobles in blood...
8. JSTOR 43482996
   . Retrieved 2023-01-23. Vellalar of these, the former, i.e, Uluvithunbor were employed by the reigning monarchs as governors of provinces and districts, and commanders of their armies and they were entitled to high privileges... being born of the families of the petty kings and nobles, bride givers to royals ... {{cite journal}}: line feed character in |quote= at position 286 (help)
9. JSTOR 44147510
   . Retrieved 2023-01-23. Vellalas held eight kind of positions, they were: Being a King, a Prince, Kosar...
10. ISBN 9780521040198
    . The Vellalar were dominant secular aristocratic caste under the Chola kings, providing the courtiers, most of the army officers.... , Thondamandala Vellalar subjects there to have been traditionally "landlords, warriors, and officials of the state class".

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 5 September 2023 --Astroz anime (talk) 13:12, 5 September 2023 (UTC)--Astroz anime (talk) 13:12, 5 September 2023 (UTC)--Astroz anime (talk) 13:12, 5 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Astroz anime (talk) 13:12, 5 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Add Kodikaal Vellalar To The Subcastes of Vellalar

 Not done Please provide a

reliable source RegentsPark (comment) 14:20, 5 September 2023 (UTC)[reply

]

Add Kodikaal Vellalar To Subcastes

Source:

https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.56743/page/n423/mode/2up

https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.47747/page/n329/mode/2up Astroz anime (talk) 07:54, 27 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Add Kodikaal Vellalar to subcastes.

Source:

https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.56743/page/n423/mode/2up

https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.47747/page/n329/mode/2up Astroz anime (talk) 06:09, 2 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion on Varna section. Why is it required?

Opening this section to discuss why the Varna section is not required in this article. Even though I have deleted this section for now, it is bound to be re-added to the article by some editor citing some reason or the other in the near future. Request editors to answer some of the queries listed below so wiki readership can better understand why some editors think varna section is required in this article.

• It is not clear what is the purpose of this section? I mean, how does it matter if the Vellalar are Vaishya or not? Are there are any restrictions due to this Varna? Should they behave in a certain way when they come across other castes or other Varna like Brahmins? Vaishya is below Brahmin varna, is this why you want to add this information to the Vellalar page so that everyone can understand that "Brahmin" junta are higher/superior to Vellalars?

• Is varna decided by birth? Is it not based upon one's occupation? In this modern age, all Vellalar are no longer farmers. They may be pursuing other occupations. In this case are they still considered to belong to the Vaishya Varna? Suppose, one Vellalar is in the army, is this person Kshatriya or still Vaishya? Varna is based upon the occupation as the Manusmrti lists farming, engaging in business as a Vaishya activity. This is why some Vellalar may have been classified as Vaishya. If not Vellalar cannot be classified as Vaishya as Vellalar is not a synonym for farmer or cattle rearer. On the same note, Iyer businessmen are not Brahmins, they are Vaishya as they are engaged in business.

• As the article describes some Vellalar were never Hindus from the very beginning and other Vellalars have rejected Hinduism and are following other religions? So is it right to add the Varna section in the article? Isn't the Varna system a Hindu classification? The Varna system has its origins in the Smrti texts like Manusmrti and may be some other Vedic texts. The followers of these texts are called Smarthas for instance like Iyer group. They could choose to follow this system if they wanted to. Why should it apply to other people who choose to follow some Hindu folk religion/village deity and have nothing to do with Vedic Hinduism?

For the reasons/queries cited above, I think Varna section is not needed in this article. If some editors think otherwise then please explain the reasons and answer the above queries so everyone can undertand why Varna section is required in this article. Nittawinoda (talk) 15:15, 30 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed.Vellalars Cannot be called as vaishyas because they were no doing business at all. They are agrarian cum military castes. Astroz anime (talk) 14:37, 29 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

caste pov in this article

the vellalars have no connection to velir and also vellalars are not connected to Ay velirs. there is no source which states that ayvelirs are vellalars. discuss

Social Scientist - Google Books Publisher:Indian School of Social Sciences https://www.google.com/books/edition/Social_Scientist/_Hw5AAAAIAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=vellalars+agricultural+shudra&dq=vellalars+agricultural+shudra&printsec=frontcover

Publisher:University of California, Berkeley https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Power_of_Murugan/6utIAQAAMAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=vellalars+agricultural+shudra&dq=vellalars+agricultural+shudra&printsec=frontcover The Power of Murugan A Study of the Tamil Celebration of Thaipusam in Penang, Malaysia 160.69.1.132 (talk) 23:44, 14 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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