User talk:Jerome Kohl/Archive17

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You should be ringed by the reply template on the talk page, and I left a short explanation there. I feel a bit foolish. It seems that the referencing is not only existent, but rather stellar. And prolific for an article that size. Like I said, I'm a bit at a loss for what happened, except that it had something to do with the many extensions, or a conflict between them. I hope there was no insult per my faux pas. And thank you for bringing that to my attention, or I likely would have be disruptively commenting and Twinkle templating myself to my first block. Heh. Quinto Simmaco (talk) 06:41, 11 June 2016 (UTC)

May I only suggest that deleting the statement to which an objection has been raised, while leaving the objection in place, is not a good idea. My own practice in such cases (which have, unfortunately, been numerous) has been simply to apologise or, in some circumstances, to strike out my own erroneous claim, though leaving the text otherwise in place. As it stands, you have left me looking rather foolish, objecting to a now absent statement.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 06:57, 11 June 2016 (UTC)

Indeed, and agreed. Hence why I broke my own cardinal rule of never removing the text of another user, no matter the circumstances (even for incivility or disruption, which is something that many people apparently have no problem with). I've never had occasion to strike one of a my comments, so in all honesty, I don't know the markup to do so. But even if I had, it would still leave the appearance of a confused clusterfuck of a conversation, as it were.

Hence why I simply refactored my comment without that erroneous exposition I started with, and left the actual question that was still relevant. Had I left your replies, or even struck them out, I felt it would still be confusing (especially to any others who might happen by). It would have the same effect of you "looking foolish". I sincerely hope you don't mind.

Like I said, this was an extraordinary circumstance on my part. I would have simply retained the majority and struck it out, had I known how, and then started a new section. I don't mind looking the fool, but I thought I would save us both the embarrassment and the definitely possibility of confusing someone else.

I hope that was alright. Thanks for beign civil, by the way. Most would not be so kind, even if it was just a technical error. Quinto Simmaco (talk) 07:13, 11 June 2016 (UTC)

Yes, this "refactoring" is fine with me. I think you are aware that at one stage, you had removed your initial question without also removing my reply to it, but this was why I invited you to simply delete the whole business and start over again. I think I have made enough mistakes myself by now to understand that not every edit goes the way it was intended. There is of course also Wikipedia:Civility, a pillar of the code of conduct all too often overlooked, in my experience. I try to abide by it, and hope that editors will increasingly do so in the future. It makes working on Wikipedia much more satisfying.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 23:41, 11 June 2016 (UTC)

Hi Jerome!

A couple of things about the Process music article:

1. I see you have reverted my edit to a citation (Sabbe 1977), giving these reasons in the edit summary: "The title is self-evidently in Dutch, and that translation does not do any favours to the reader unable to read the language". Let me respond:

• Firstly, for English-speakers unfamiliar with Dutch, it's not at all evident what the language is. I believe it's helpful to at least identify the language the source is in; they might then know whom to approach (e.g. a Dutch person of their acquaintance) for clarification of anything – or everything – they find there.

• Secondly, by giving an (admittedly rough) English translation of the title, it does the reader the favour (I like your spelling!) of identifying the subject-matter likely to be discussed in – and perhaps even the position likely to be taken by – the source, and thereby facilitates deciding whether they care to seek a translation of the entire source work.

So, as you can see, I disagree with your reasons for reverting. I felt that it was a useful addition, and thus an improvement, to the article. Nothing you wrote there has yet changed my mind, but please do feel free to try!

2. By the way, it seems to me that the incomprehensibility of the title of a reference is the very least of the problems with this article, even tho' it was one I could address quite quickly. Much more importantly, the history section seems to stop with Reich or possibly late Cage, probably giving the casual reader the impression that Process Music has come and gone, perhaps like Art Nouveau. It needs so much more to bring it up to date, including, for example, some examples of recent works by newer and current practitioners to illustrate trends in creating process music. Ironically, the only nod in this direction is in the sole external link to Jim Bumgardner's implementation of the Whitney Music Box, even tho' the article doesn't mention Whitney's work, nor the connection of Process Music to Visual Music. I note from the talk page that you and User:Hyacinth have worked on the article in the past. What do you think the most important areas are to address next?

yoyo (talk) 12:53, 13 June 2016 (UTC)

You may have a point, though I believe it is usual to give translations of book titles only for languages more distant from English than Dutch (e.g., Russian, Hungarian, or Japanese). The German titles in that same list, for example, do not have translations, and German is not as close to English as Dutch is (in my experience). Still, I might have just improved your (presumably machine-generated) translation, and probably should do so. The material from Sabbe was added by myself, so I am responsible for making it as comprehensible as possible to English readers. As for the lang-icon template, I believe it is intended for external links, where any reader may instantly link to a text that may turn out to be in an unfamiliar language.

The most persistent problem with the article, which I have been unable satisfactorily to rectify for some years now, is to define properly what "process music" is. I know myself that it has at least two distinct though related senses, one more general (as applied to the music of Elliott Carter, for example) and the other more specific (the Steve Reich "minimalist" sense), but finding

reliable sources to verify these definitions is problematic. Like so many terms in music, this phrase gets thrown around frequently by people who seem to assume "everyone knows" what it is, while no-one ever bothers to set down a decent definition. Updating is another factor, and it sounds like you are in a better position to deal with this than I am (I cannot say I have ever heard of Jim Bumgardner or the Whitney Music Box, for example). Please feel free to bring the article into the last decade of the twentieth century, or further. If in the process you manage to find even a single source that plainly explains what process music in the widest sense actually means, I would be grateful to have it added to the article.—Jerome Kohl (talk

) 16:44, 13 June 2016 (UTC)

Thanks! I'll certainly try to do that – get a reliable source defining Process Music in the widest sense. Tho' certainly none spring to mind … Do you know whether Stockhausen ever explained what he meant by calling those early-60s works "process compositions"? i.e. in what sense "process" was more salient or important – during composition or during performance – than was normal in prior art? From the references, you've clearly studied and written lots about his work. Which leads to another question – do the ideas of intuitive music help to explicate Process Music? e.g. this quote from the intuitive music article:

for Stockhausen intuition must become a controllable ability, and therefore is an instrument of the project of modernity: "the investigation and instrumentalization of the world by controlled procedures" (Kutschke 1999)

You're aware, I guess, of the phenomenon known as Systems music, which I've only recently tripped over. I'm wondering whether there's a unanalysed gestalt here connecting these various names for styles which all have roots largely in the modern period between World Wars and flourished in the experimental zeitgeist post-WWII …  ? I find that last phrase of Kutschke's – "the instrumentalization of the world by controlled procedures" – very relevant to the increasing pervasiveness of industrial and computational process. So I wonder who, if anybody, has written taking a similar tack. I do know that some people found Stockhausen's approach to music hard to stomach, but did anybody (e.g. philosophers of music, aestheticians etc.) articulate clear objections to justify their gut response? So much speculation may be useless, but not if it turns up the definitions we're looking for in places we'd rather not look, such as negative criticism; so now I have a plan!

Apparently Frisian is the closest Germanic language to English, which fits with a very broad usage of the term "dialect continuum" that would include earlier versions of English, Frisian, Flemish (perhaps), Dutch, German (even in its most Continental versions, e.g. SchwitzerDeutsch in Switzerland) as variants of one language. It's typical for "languages" to include dialects of gradually diminishing mutual intelligibility, so that extreme dialects are extremely foreign. You doubtless know that the distinction between language and dialect is usually political rather than purely linguistic. Reason I didn't think to translate German titles first is probably because I speak it a little, so the words are more familiar (I had three German-speaking great-grandparents), and also because I thought Dutch was less widely known than German. (Fellow-Australians of my generation would have learnt French as their first foreign language, German as their second, with classical Latin and Greek in distant third and fourth places; other modern languages simply weren't available at school. Now kids are more likely to learn Mandarin Chinese, Japanese or Indonesian; and even - at long last! - some Australian Aboriginal languages are being taught in schools here.) Forgive my rambling … but language issues are very important to me!

You wrote that "The material from Sabbe was added by myself, so I am responsible for making it as comprehensible as possible to English readers" - please allow me to politely differ on this: as Wikipedians, we've both assumed the responsibility to make the articles as good as they can be. Thank you for improving my machine-assisted attempt at translating his 1977 title! (Tho' I did enjoy the resonances of "series-honoring principle", or perhaps "series-respecting principle", of course the phrase "serial principle" does have currency in English.) I haven't used the {{lang-icon}} template for a long time, if ever, and am unsure why you mention it; do you think we could use profitably use it with foreign-language sources such as Sabbe? yoyo (talk) 12:13, 14 June 2016 (UTC)

Phew! That's a lot to respond to! First of all, I think that several of the issues you raise have to do with the relatively recent emergence of this concept. "Systems music", "process music", "minimal music" are all ideas in flux, which means that all too often they become Humpty-Dumptyisms: meaning whatever the speaker wants them to mean, and without prior clarification. There are certainly worse cases ("postmodern music" comes to mind). What we are waiting for, really, is for the dust to settle sufficiently so that some lexicographer can write an article for the New Grove or an entry for the OED that will tell us (with the usual supreme degree of inaccuracy) just what these words are meant to describe.

The sense you cite from Kutschke is one of the better examples. At least she clearly sets out just what it is she means, and the "machine-driven" idea is certainly at least one aspect of the subject (I think the term "systems music" is more or less coincident with this conception), though it could not be further from what Stockhausen and Carter mean by "process" (and they undoubtedly mean two different things, as well). I could attempt that more inclusive definition (and I did so once, in a paper that unfortunately remains unpublished), but unfortunately that would be Original Research. In any case, I believe that there are writers besides Kutschke who have followed up the idea of "automated systems", and certainly a lot of composers who have at least tinkered with the idea. Ligeti did both these things, in his early article on Boulez's Structures 1a, and in his pattern-meccanico compositions, respectively. I'm not so sure about people who have found Stockhausen's approach to music hard to stomach. In fact, I think most of the attempts to reject his music from a rigorous critical perspective (and there have not been many) founder on the fact that they fail to take into account what that "approach" actually was. As a target, Stockhausen is not alone in this respect, of course. Aesthetics is a slippery business.

I am aware of the claims for Frisian and English, having taught music lessons for a time to a retired clergyman who was Frisian. Your point, however, is that German is more likely to fall within the experience of English-speaking readers than Dutch (or Frisian!), and this is perfectly true. I thought you had used the {{lang-icon}} template to mark the language of Sabbe's book. My mistake: you did that manually. I don't thing there is much point in calling attention to the language of foreign-language sources in a bibliography, especially if a helpful translation is offered in cases where there may be some difficulty. The place of publication is often enough to tell the reader what that unfamiliar language must be, and the reader interested in consulting such sources will be required to go to a library or book store (or, in some cases, to GoogleBooks or similar resources), in the full knowledge that what they are seeking is not in English. My understanding of the "lang" tags (per the documentation at Template:En icon and Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Linking#Non-English-language_sites) is that they are meant for external links where such clues are often totally absent, and an explanatory tag in English may mislead a reader to suppose clicking on the link will go to a site in that language.

It is very kind of you to differ with me on the point of responsibility for clarity. Of course it is true that all editors on Wikipedia share a responsibility to make the articles as good as possible, but it is also true that editors with a particular skill or knowledge base may be in a better position to clarify technical points than others. Dutch is decidedly a foreign language for me, but I can at least read it with a little comprehension, and the subject matter of that book is in my area of special expertise. Since I had the temerity to inflict such a source on this article, I think I am obliged to take on a greater share of the responsibility for its presentation than other editors are, while remaining grateful for any (hopefully more expert) assistance.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 15:54, 14 June 2016 (UTC)

Jerome Kohl (and yoyo), although I don't know much about process music, I happen to be reasonably fluent in Dutch. Don't hesitate to ask me in case of need − I am all the more at ease to say so that cases of need will not be that frequent ;−)).

Sabbe writes in a somewhat intricate Dutch. The best way to get a translation of his title certainly would be to ask him. I don't think I have his email, but one should be able to contact him through Mark Leman (see [1]). In the meanwhile, here are my five cents:

• Het muzikale serialisme als techniek en als denkmethode: Een onderzoek naar de logische en historische samenhang van de onderscheiden toepassingen van het seriërend beginsel in de muziek van de periode 1950–1975.

The main problem is translating samenhang, which strictly means "connection", "link". I'd therefore propose:

• Musical serialism as Technique and as Method of Thinking: A Study of the Logical and Historical Interconnections Between the Different Applications of the Serial Principle in Music from the Period 1950-1975.

I think that what Sabbe wanted to study in this (which was his PhD thesis) were the links, logical and historical, between different applications of serialism. This is more precise than merely the context of serialism in the third quarter of the century: it does concern the fact that although the applications were many and different, they did maintain logical and historical links between themselves − it is in this sense also that serialism could be considered a way of thinking.

Hucbald.SaintAmand (talk) 18:28, 14 June 2016 (UTC)

Thanks, Hucbald. I like "interconnections", which makes good sense in this context. I shall try to remember that alternative the next time I need to translate German Zusammenhang into English! Sabbe's focus is a bit narrower even than what you suggest, I think, but his purpose was to gain some sort of overview of what "serialism" meant for three Belgian composers: Pousseur, Goeyvaerts, and Goethals. I find his approach admirable, because he started from analyses of many individual works, and then attempted to find the commonalities, in contrast to the method adopted all too frequently, which is to make assumptions about what serialism is (seldom based on more than a single model—usually Boulez's Structures 1a), and then try to analyze multiple compositions to demonstrate that the hypothesis is true.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 18:49, 14 June 2016 (UTC)

Nice! :) Besides samenhang, one other term I hesitated over was denkmethode, wondering whether, perhaps, the Dutch compound already carries connotations of a discipline of thought? What say you, Hucbald? yoyo (talk) 03:10, 15 June 2016 (UTC)

Well, yoyo, only Hermann Sabbe himself could tell us what he preciserly had in mind. It is true that the Dutch methode has these two connotations, meaning both a "way of" (doing something) and possibly the discipline of this way of doing (as it could be taught in a textbook, a "method"). It seems to me that, since the English "method" has the same connotations, it remains the best translation, preserving the original ambiguïty. — Hucbald.SaintAmand (talk) 07:01, 15 June 2016 (UTC)

Hi. Thank you for your recent edits. Wikipedia appreciates your help. We noticed though that when you edited Piano Concerto (Chávez), you added a link pointing to the disambiguation page New Philharmonia Orchestra. Such links are almost always unintended, since a disambiguation page is merely a list of "Did you mean..." article titles. Read the FAQ • Join us at the DPL WikiProject.

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Greetings JK! With reference to this edit on Pelle Gudmundsen-Holmgreen, the title of the work in question is "Concerto Grosso", so maybe capitals are appropriate, though it is I suppose also a common noun. "Vivaldi on safari" is I think a comment PGH made about the work, but not the title of either the original 1990 version or the 2006 revision. --Deskford (talk) 16:28, 29 June 2016 (UTC)

I was unsure about this, Danish not being one of my strong suits. Thanks for your opinion, which I am happy to accept. Let us change it, if you have not already done so.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 17:22, 29 June 2016 (UTC)

for creating Piano Concerto (Chávez) – my all-time favourite in the genre :) Cobblet (talk) 08:04, 2 July 2016 (UTC)

My pleasure. It has long been a favorite of mine, also, but surpisingly challenging to find suitable reliable sources upon which to build an article.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 20:46, 2 July 2016 (UTC)

Yes, a true pity it's so poorly known and infrequently recorded. Cobblet (talk) 19:46, 3 July 2016 (UTC)

Well, four recordings isn't so bad, even spread over fifty years. Chávez's Violin Concerto has only had two, neither of which is complete, though I have to admit I do not find it anywhere near as compelling as the Piano Concerto. The Sixth Symphony, which I regard almost as highly as the Piano Concerto, also has had only two recordings.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 20:52, 3 July 2016 (UTC)

In the Seattle area? You are invited to the Seattle Wiknic 2016 on Saturday, July 16, 2016, noon to 3pm at the Washington Park Arboretum, in the meadow area to the south of the Graham Visitors Center, approximately at 47°38′15″N 122°17′38″W / 47.637435°N 122.293986°W / 47.637435; -122.293986. Click here for more details!

I have added information about the Hotteterre recorders made by this family and Jacques-Martin in particular. I hope this addresses your concern about the article not supporting his being a recorder maker.

Thanks!

Theodulf — Preceding unsigned comment added by Theodulf (talk • contribs) 00:20, 10 July 2016 (UTC)

Sounds good. I'll take a look and let you know if I have any concerns.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 00:22, 10 July 2016 (UTC)

Sorry, but neither of the sources actually suggest that Jacques-Martin was the maker of any recorder from those workshops. Perhaps another source can be found? J-M was of course a famous makers of musettes, and almost certainly made transverse flutes (though whether any of his instruments actually survive has been called into question, most notably by Ardal Powell). But recorders? That is by no means so universally accepted, I think.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 00:35, 10 July 2016 (UTC)

Based on the limited research material I have available, I'm unable to come up with a more thorough defense. I see that you have better access to such resources than I do, so I will defer to you at this time. However, I wonder if a better solution is to have an article on the Hotteterre family, so the impact of the surviving instruments can be documented. (For the recorder community, the surviving instruments have had a notable impact.) And if you ever attend any of the EMG concerts in Seattle, I look forward to meeting you. Theodulf — Preceding unsigned comment added by Theodulf (talk • contribs) 02:02, 11 July 2016 (UTC)

Alas, my research on this topic is somewhat out of date. It is entirely possible that new information has surfaced in the last ten years or so, but the last time I checked there was no serious reason to suppose that J-M Hotteterre (unlike several of his family members) ever made a recorder. I think the most recent information I have dates back to David Lasocki's impressive update of J-M's biography, and of course Ardal Powell's article on the alleged Hotteterre flutes (which doe not discuss recorders at all). I genuinely hope that you will find some evidence that changes this situation—it would be sensational news to me. I do not attend as many EMG concerts as I used to, but I was the founding president of the organization, back in 1978.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 03:10, 11 July 2016 (UTC)

So you know Peter Seibert and remember Randy McCarty? Theodulf

Of course. Both of them were members of the founding committee of the EMG, though I had known both of them for some years by then. Peter is still with us, at 80, but of course Randy passed away some years ago now.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 04:46, 11 July 2016 (UTC)

I have placed evidence about why 1972 was their founding date and that their intention was to focus on avant garde material in the Talk page for that article. Theodulf — Preceding unsigned comment added by Theodulf (talk • contribs) 03:39, 11 July 2016 (UTC)

Yes, I saw that. The citations actually should be placed in the article, and the one erroneously claiming 1969 removed. I don't see anything supporting the claim of intent to focus on avant-garde material, though.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 04:41, 11 July 2016 (UTC)

You may or may not enjoy looking at eagle-bone whistle, keeping in mind that other users define the whistle and its use as outside of music, as not being music(al), as well as that the talk page discusses a few issues, all of which involve my editing. Hyacinth (talk) 04:54, 19 July 2016 (UTC)

I noticed that you had added that article to the flute template. I did wonder if it might excite some controversy. Of course the fundamental question is whether a flute must be a musical instrument, or if there are flutes (disregarding champagne glasses and hollow grooves cut in classical columns) that fall outside that category. I'll take a look, thanks for notifying me.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 05:01, 19 July 2016 (UTC)

It depends on one's definition of music (and flutes: most American's don't think of a recorder as a flute). A whistle doesn't always serve as entertainment, and so has, so far, been accepted in the article.

When I was first contacted about this article, I literally assumed the user was going to ask me to transfer some money to Africa. The conversations have gone better than that, but not great.

It seems to me that if users are going to claim that they are obviously experts or Indians, or both, and thus know what is true, and, more importantly, what may not be said, but are not able to say it (because it may not be said) and why it may not be said, that an effort should be made to deal with the sacred, the holy, and the confidential.

It also seems that if one values traditional cultures around the world, Wikipedia policy should cover "oral culture" or a similar term ("pre-literate" should be avoided; "

oral culture" would hopefully be revised), and cultural appropriation

.

Unrelated, you might take a look the new Bigwala.

Hyacinth (talk) 23:33, 20 July 2016 (UTC)

Yes, of course, that too. It is always possible to define out of existence whatever one wishes, but carrying this to extremes will eventually isolate the definer in a little cocoon all by himself. The Hornbostel-Sachs definition of "flute" says nothing at all about its function, only its construction, and the same is true of gourd trumpets. On the other hand, the Wikipedia article Definition of music has been paralyzed for a long time now, both by opposing factions and poor reasoning.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 00:00, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

You may be able to give a better answer at User talk:Hyacinth#Brass instrument with quarter tone lowering than I did. Hyacinth (talk) 05:35, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

Ooh! Maybe not. In theory, you are correct, but brass instruments have got some cranky tuning problems in different parts of their range, and this is really the kind of question that sould be addressed by a brass player. What ultimately matters is what the player can coax the instrument into producing. No trumpet or flügelhorn automatically produces in-tune notes at the touch of a button. Tuning requires skill.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 05:53, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

In this change to Buccina, you changed a range of pages from "711-712" to "711–12" (using an n-dash), citing MOS:NUM. As far as I can tell, the MOS rule only applies to date ranges. @PBS: and I have long been using full page numbers (with ASCII hyphens) in this context. Did you think these numbers were dates, or is there a new convention? David Brooks (talk) 23:53, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

I must say you have brought me up short: I was so certain that numeric ranges generally were covered in

MOS:CITE, or in the documentation for various citation templates—that specifies one way or another about non-date numeric ranges. The Chicago Manual of Style used to be quite specific about this (all numeric ranges involving three or more digits should be abbreviated to the last two digits unless the third digit also changes, eg., 397–401), but starting with the 14th edition, this became only the preferred method, with other variants permitted, so long as they are followed consistently (e.g., 4131–34 is preferred, but 4131–4, 4131–134, or 4131–4134 may be chosen alternatively). There is a Q&A discussion of this here. My copy of the New Oxford Style Manual is not handy, but I am certain that it, too, recommends truncation to two digits. What flummoxes me is that there seems to be no guidance at all on this point in the WP Manual of Style. Surely it should at least be mentioned (perhaps it used to be, and was removed at some point). By all means feel free to revert my edit, if it pleases you, and there are no conflicting formats in that same article. I have been working on a different assumption for over ten years now on Wikipedia, and you are the first editor to question this. I think some sort of congratulations are in order!—Jerome Kohl (talk

) 01:08, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing to the CMOS: I'm really surprised at its recommendation because the truncation of page numbers just looks wrong to my eyes. I'm sure I've recorded hundreds of full-digit ranges in {{EB1911}} and {{Cite EB1911}} template parameters, so if the MOS gets aligned with the CMOS there would be a lot of remedial work. Also, we use ASCII hyphens rather than n-dash because it's easier to type (this is a template parameter after all); ISTR there was another reason for choosing hyphen but not sure. PBS, any insights? I'll revert that change for consistency with all the other instances. David Brooks (talk) 02:38, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

I suppose it depends on what you are used to seeing. I have been editing (professionally) to the CMOS standard since 1984 (and to Hart's Rules since about 1996), and the full-range page numbers look completely wrong to me. I think the use of hyphens within templates is simply a mechanical issue: the template will display en-dashes anyway, and it is probably best to use the hyphen as a default since so many editors will use it anyway.

MOS:NUM make it very clear which is correct, but not everyone knows their keyboard shortcuts for en- and em-dashes, so the old typewriter substitutions live on in the post-typewriter age. I am personally very skeptical about those templates. On the one hand, I can see the virtue of overcoming by main force the bad typing habits of generations of writers; on the other hand, there is not a single mandated citation format on Wikipedia, which means that those templates are either unable to cope with all the variations, or become hopelessly complicated in trying to do so. I was personally unaware until this moment about the hyphen–to–en-dash feature in the "pages" parameter, but am happy to learn it is there.—Jerome Kohl (talk

) 04:04, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

• Mathews, Jane (23 July 2016). "Government bans Latin abbreviations on its websites to avoid confusion".
  Daily Telegraph. -- PBS (talk
  ) 09:46, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

There is a difference between how dash and mdashndash are used on Wikipedia and Wikisource. On Wikipedia mdashndash is used in titles which involve dates. So for example is a page on Wikiepdia needs to be disambiguated by (DOB-DOD) then mdashndash is used, but on Wikisource dash is used. So for the title parameter because it is a link to an article on Wikisource dash should be used. For the pages parameter the template it does not matter what is used. I use mdashndash between page numbers with the full page number eg 201–211 not 201–11. The real world is interrupting my typing so I will come back to this topic later today or tomorrow (depending on your time zone) with a title example. -- PBS (talk) 09:46, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

I also have real life today (45th wedding anniversary :-) ) but... I was asking solely about page ranges, not date ranges. Since the citation template converts hyphen to ndash, I'm comfortable using hyphen for input and I take the template's behavior as implicit validation of ndash (not mdash) as the correct separator. In any case, I wonder how many wikipedians can even see the difference or know how to render an ndash; I have no data of course, but I guess the kind of people who populate citation templates are more likely to be the kind of people who worry about these things. Personally I can never remember all the keyboard long-cuts, and as I do much of my editing on a keyboard without numpad anyway, I get non-ASCII characters by tapping the onscreen keyboards and using tap-hold-slide.

But back to date ranges: I always thought that was ndash, not mdash. I always use ndash in a range of full dates (birth/death in a bio), but is there a different rule for something like 1939-45? David Brooks (talk) 14:21, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

Congratulation David. I typed the last paragraph quickly I meant ndash not mdash -- I have now corrected it --Sorry for any confusion! If the page number ranges are now being checked for ndash to replace dash it is because the LULA module (under {{cite encyclopedia}} of which {{cite EB1911}} is a wrapper) checks the pages parameter.

I had a look through the Wikisource EB1911 article names under A and most of B and not one disambiguation uses dates, so maybe EB1911 articles on Wikisouce has no need of them, but there are thousands of them on Wikisource DNB see for example the first volume of s:Dictionary of National Biography, 1885-1900/Vol 1 Abbadie - Anne for example and thanks to a policy of removing unwanted redirects on Wikisource any redirects that are created using ndash are likely to be removed. For that reason it is best to stick to titles as they are on Wikisource whatever the MOS suggests is correct. -- PBS (talk) 15:34, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

References to encyclopedia and dictionary entries do not conventionally use page numbers, since their alphabetical arrangement within the source makes them easier to find by article title, and such articles are rarely long enough to make it difficult to locate a specific statement within the article. I am occasionally surprised on Wikipedia by demands for page numbers in such cases, so this this obviously not a universally known thing.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 20:26, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

Wikisource has the text of the 1911 Encyclopædia Britannica article "Austria-Hungary".

In the EB1911 many articles are pages long. See for example almost any country/state entry. If one is looking up a citation in an EB1911 volume it is generally easier to

binary chop to the right page than it is to look up the an article alphabetically (as the length of articles varies). We can not assume that everyone will be looking these things up through online links to the specific articles. If the page number is available why not include them for either or both of those reasons? -- PBS (talk

) 21:29, 30 July 2016 (UTC)

I see no reason not to include both, just as issue numbers are often (redundantly) included for journals that are paginated by volume. I also find that exceptionally long encyclopedia articles (such as Harold Powers's New Grove article "Mode", which runs to something like 40 pages) are usefully referenced by section, especially when pointing to online editions like Grove Online which do not have page numbers at all! I am merely saying that alphabetical articles do not usually require page numbers. I could say conversely that supplying only a page number in a reference to an encyclopedia is not usually sufficient, since "p. 1024" (for example) gives no idea whatever about the context of the reference.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 21:39, 30 July 2016 (UTC)

I think we're all in violent agreement. Including the page number(s) seems more ... scholarly... somehow, and the article name is useful context, especially as it's often not the same as the WP article title. I know that almost exactly nobody will be thumbing through a paper copy of EB1911 to check a reference, but that isn't a reason not to do the right thing. Also, as PBS pointed out to me a while back, when you are researching the reference you usually have the page number right in front of you (either in an archive.org version or a transcluded WS version), so the cost is small. Currently I'm taking a break from verification, and using AWB to find references I created in the past without page numbers, and adding them. David Brooks (talk) 01:31, 31 July 2016 (UTC)

Yes, I don't think there is any need to resort to fisticuffs. The situation I had in mind concerning page-numbers-only references to a dictionary/encyclopedia is one that I have encountered occasionally, where a single dictionary is cited on three or more widely separated pages. It is frustrating under these circiumstances not to know which if any of the cited articles are about the topic of the Wikipedia article, and tracking them down in online editions may be difficult or even impossible, if that edition does not bear page numbers.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 03:02, 31 July 2016 (UTC)

I don't think that David, and I certainly would not, include a link to an EB1911 article without including the EB1911 article title. One practical reason for this is that EB1911 on Wikisource is accessed by article name. However as I said before, we would tend to include page numbers as well. There is a section in the EB1911 Manual of Stile that gives advise on how to create links within EB1911 articles on Wikisource (see: s:Wikisource:WikiProject 1911 Encyclopædia Britannica/Style Manual#Linking within an article) but it does not suggest adding anchors for sections, and while I include {{anchor}} points to section in EB1911 articles where they exist, many do not have them. For example the Wikisource article to which I linked above "Austria-Hungary" does not yet have section links.

There is also a practical reason for including page numbers in inline citations if one is using the {{

• {{EB1911|last=Phillips |first=W.A. |wstitle=Austria-Hungary |volume=3 |pages=2–39}}

While one can include sections into the templates using the parameter loc= — and this is how I did it in the Wikipedia article "First English Civil War" — this is unusual.

At the moment in Wikipedia articles there is a legacy of

1. Walk away and leave it for someone else to fix in the future.
2. Proof read and incorporate the article in Wikisource EB1911. This is the best long term option, and is relatively easy to do if the article is a short one. However with articles like "Austria-Hungary" that include many pages and/or unusual formatting like tables, this is a far from trivial exercise, so an alternative may be the only option for an editor with limited time to make such changes.
3. Link to another site which has the article. The problem with that is that one does not know if the version is accurate. Project Gutenberg yields low hanging fruit (so those articles have often been ported to Wikisource). If they have not then including the page numbers helps Wikisource editors find the article via the page[s] in the scan index of a volume to help with the creation of a transluded page easily checked against the original source.
4. Link to the volumes at
   EB1911#External links
   . If this option is used while one can link to the page including the page number is helpful for any editor who wants to check the archive.org source, and like the previous option helps editors find the source in the scan index for porting to Wikisource.

In summary while I agree that the article name should be included, I think that including the page numbers as well is helpful and is incorporated as guideline advise in

Also... "5,338... without an article parameter". Well, that was 9,109 on Apr 7 2014, and crossed the 6,000 mark early last April, so we're getting there. David Brooks (talk) 14:08, 31 July 2016 (UTC)

I am pleased to learn that the EB1911 template requires the article title. The examples I had in mind were citations to the Harvard Dictionary of Music and the New Grove Dictionary of Music and Musicians which, as far as I know, do not have specialized templates of their own (unless you count the badly formed template for Grove Online, which still outputs "Ed. L. Macy" even though she was replaced by Deane Root in 2009). Since I edit mainly on topics from the second half of the twentieth century, I do not often gave the opportunity to cite EB1911, but it is good to know the template is well looked after. BTW, the "page" and "loc" parameters of the HARV templates are not obligatory, and should be omitted when the cited source has but a single page or is cited by article title instead of page number (as with dictionary entries).—Jerome Kohl (talk) 18:40, 31 July 2016 (UTC)

In the Holst discussion, you spoke of the many times you saw an editor whining about an added infobox reverted: kindly give me one example of such a thing, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 23:37, 31 July 2016 (UTC)

Perhaps "whining" is a tainted term to attach to any particular instance, but certainly the editor at Talk:Maurice_Ravel#Infobox_was_reverted seemed indignant at not having been warned. There are similar, less extreme cases at Talk:Gustav_Mahler#Infobox and Talk:Aaron_Copland#Infobox.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 04:56, 1 August 2016 (UTC)

Hi Jerome, I am sorry for not including the citations earlier. Will you let me know kindly if this works better. Dyadyavasya (talk) 00:02, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

It works better, yes, but you should know that the letter S does not fall between P and Q in the Latin alphabet. I have moved the entry to its correct alphabetic position. I still find that the biographical article does not support very well the position that this obviously very successful commercial musician qualifies as "experimental", save for that one quotation (which, in the biography, is not properly cited).—Jerome Kohl (talk) 05:52, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

Hello Jerome Kohl. We recently participated in

Very interesting request (and perfectly reasonable, in my opinion). Thank you for calling my attention to it.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 18:54, 5 August 2016 (UTC)

You replaced {{Citation}} with {{Cite magazine}} here. I have assumed this is unnecessary since {{Citation}} documentation says, "The Citation template generates a citation for a book, periodical, contribution in a collective work, patent, or a web page. It determines the citation type by examining which parameters are used." Please let me know if I need to stop being lazy about this. ~Kvng (talk) 14:42, 9 August 2016 (UTC)

Guilty as charged. I have never been able to figure out how to make the {{Citation}} template render an entry properly formatted for a journal, magazine, or newspaper article. No matter what I do, it always seems to italicize the article title. I'm sure it is just laziness on my part, but my patience with the obscure inner workings of templates is not great. If you know how to do this correctly using {{Citation}}, I certainly have got no objection to your making the substitution. If I recall correctly, I was following a slightly earlier edit my someone else when I used {{Cite magazine}}, since it is not actually a template I have come across before ({{Cite journal}} is what I am used to).—Jerome Kohl (talk) 00:32, 10 August 2016 (UTC)

It sounds like {{Citation}} makes false promises. ~Kvng (talk) 14:10, 13 August 2016 (UTC)

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Symphony_No._5_%28Beethoven%29&type=revision&diff=733900533&oldid=733877701: no, the time isn't evident in such a case. An article etc. can make use of research by other persons.83.248.231.116 (talk) 21:59, 10 August 2016 (UTC)

Ah, I see your point. Nevertheless, do you agree with my solution?—Jerome Kohl (talk) 01:18, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

Yes, it was a good

Alexandrian solution. I would have preferred both year and researcher, but I can't see it's overwhelmingly important here. 83.248.231.116 (talk

) 01:43, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

Without actually consulting the cited source, I can only assume that a publication in the Beethoven Journal would be the primary source of the research, and Stefan Romano therefore the researcher. On the other hand, the remark may have been inserted five years ago, at which point 2009 would be much more "recent" than it now is. As you say, it is not actually important whether either 2009 or the research is recent or not. Describing it as such has a distinct quality of breathless journalistic hype.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 01:55, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

Yes, I agree. That's another reason why I don't like the word "recent". And I can assume the same; I just prefer to be sure (but I won't go to the library tomorrow to check it). And I can't help but feel some interest in the fact that such a similarity to a work by such a relatively well-known composer has gone unnoticed for so long. Not that I say it's remarkable, but nevertheless. Oh well… 83.248.231.116 (talk) 02:25, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

Yes, in scientific research, "recent" means "not yet published", whereas in geology, in can mean "no more than ten thousand years ago". In music, the scale is not quite that broad, but still the word "recent" is not meaningful without some sort of reference point.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 03:08, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

Sorry about Sebastián Durón and Antonio Soler. Maybe they don't gather enought merits to qualify among the best musicians. Although, in my humble opinion, José de Nebra and Antonio de Literes are two of the best Baroque composers, Gaspar Sanz was the best guitar composer and Juan Cabanilles was the very best of Spanish organist tradition. Regards. I leave here an small summary about these musicians. (Google translator).

-José de Nebra (1702-1768). He had a great career in the world of music. When the fire Royal Alcazar of Madrid happened in 1734, which disappeared completely the Royal Chapel's collection of sacred music in, Antonio de Literes was commisioned to make his recontruccion with new works. He became vice master of the Royal Chapel in 1751. Currently of the more than 170 works are preserved, though research continues to discover files in different scores. Among his most outstanding works include "Iphigenia en Tracia" (1747), "Donde hay violencia no hay culpa"(1744) y "Viento es la dicha de amor"(1744). I invite you to listen to any of them.

-Antonio de Literes (1673-1747). He composed for the royal chapel from 1690. In 1734 after a disastrous fire in the royal palace that destroyed the music file, is charged with José Nebra and choirmaster José de Torres to reconstruct the collection and compose new music to replace it he had lost. Had great success during the first half of the eighteenth century, among his works: "Todo lo vence el amor" 1707, "Acis y Galatea" 1708 y “Los elementos”. They were discovered in 2003 in the Cathedral of Guatemala several of his hitherto unpublished works.

-Juan Cabanilles (1644-1712). Study in Valencia and succeeded in becoming the principal organist of the Cathedral of Valencia with 21 years. This charge is held until his death in 1712. Cabanilles's work is, almost entirely, organ and within this embodiment shown special interest in the tientos and verses. They have been preserved abundant organ works: more than 200 tientos, 160 verses, 2 battles 5 Galliards 5 Pasacalles, 6 tocatas, etc. Maulstick is a very musical way of Hispanic music is essentially composed for solo instruments as the key, harp or organ (late seventeenth century only make up for keyboard instruments such as organ). Organ music of Juan Cabanilles represents the culmination of the Spanish-Portuguese organist music of the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries. His works include: "Mortales que amais" y ”Gloria Patri et Filio”

-Gaspar Sanz (1640-1710) He was a composer, guitarist and organist of the Spanish Baroque. He studied music, theology and philosophy at the University of Salamanca, where he later became professor of music. He wrote three books of pedagogy and works for baroque guitar that form an important part of current repertoire of classical guitar. It is considered the greatest Baroque composer guietarra.

-Sebastián Durón (1660-1716). He was a famous Spanish composer and organist. In 1691 he was appointed organist of the Royal Chapel of King Charles II in Madrid. After his death and the ascent to the Spanish throne of the new monarch Bourbon, Felipe V, in 1701 he was appointed master of the Royal Chapel. Maintain this position until 1706, when he was suspended because of the express support of the musician Archduke Charles of Austria during the War of Spanish Succession, which ended with the victory of the Bourbon candidate, King Philip V. Duron was exiled to France that same year . From 1715 he worked in Bayonne of chaplain exiled Queen Mariana of Neuburg, the widow of Charles II. He died in Cambo-les-Bains in 1716, sick with tuberculosis. His works include: "Salir el amor del mundo" (1696) y "La Guerra de los gigantes" (1702).

-Antonio soler (1729-1783). It was a Spanish composer and harpsichordist, representative of the Spanish school of keyboard music of the eighteenth century. He was choirmaster at the Cathedral of the Seo d'Urgell (Lleida). He served as organist and choirmaster of the Monastery of San Lorenzo de El Escorial (Madrid), where he would spend the rest of his life. He studied with Domenico Scarlatti. He composed numerous instrumental and religious works among which ten masses, 50 psalms nine magnificats, 16 motets and cantatas and carols about 130. He also authored a treatise on the theory: “Llave de la modulación y antigüedades de la música” (1762).

Historia Española (talk) 17:34, 13 August 2016 (UTC)

Thank you for taking the trouble of supplying all of this information. I am familiar with Cabanilles. Sanz, and Soler (for just that one composition, of course), but have never before heard of the others, which does not speak well for designating them as "key" composers of the Baroque. Keep in mind that your personal admiration for a composer is not the same thing as a general agreement by historians about their importance. However, the real problem is that the list is already too long, and includes some names (e.g., Zelenka and Pachelbel) that probably should be removed. If you believe that, for example, Cabanilles should be added (even though the organ composer Buxtehude is not included), then please remove one of the lesser names in order that the list should not increase in size.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 22:54, 13 August 2016 (UTC)

Thank you very much for your reply. You're absolutely right when you say that the list is already long enough, so I'm going to replace Zelenka and Pachelbel, since I agree your statement, for Cabanilles and Nebra unless you have any objections. By the way, I am surprised that you know Cabanilles, Sanz and Soler but have not heard about Nebra, if you are interested, you can hear many of his works here. Thank you very much for the time you've spent on this matter. Historia Española (talk) 22:30, 14 August 2016 (UTC)

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Historia Española (talk • contribs) 22:29, 14 August 2016 (UTC) 

I will leave your edits alone, but it will be interesting to see what other editors think about the "key" status of your nominations. I cannot say why I have never encountered Nebra before, except that he must not have been in the texts when I took the usual undergraduate music-history survey courses, nor did he come up in the graduate seminars I subsequently took in Baroque music history. I did not take any specialised courses in Spanish baroque music, but Cabanilles is certainly important enough to have come to my attention alongside Buxtehude and Pachelbel. Sanz is bound to be familiar to anyone with an interest in guitar music, though his compositions did not have much impact outside of that rather closely circumscribed repertory. I am a little surprised you did not nominate Denis Gaultier for elimination, since it might be said that his position relative to the lute is similar to Sanz and the guitar. However, the 17th-century French luthists had an enormous influence on the clavecinists of the later 17th and early 18th centuries, who in turn shaped the keyboard style of J. S. Bach, amongst many others. Soler is known to me solely for the infamous Fandango, which puts him very much in the same category as Pachelbel—a composer extremely well-known for just a single composition (though both were of course important in their day for other works now largely ignored by performers and therefore unknown to the general public). From what you have written about Nebra, I would suppose he is mainly known for his zarzuelas, and this is not an area with which I have much familiarity. I suspect this may be the case generally for non-Spanish-speaking listeners. Who knows? I think it will be interesting to see how your nominations stand up to scrutiny.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 01:37, 15 August 2016 (UTC)

You deleted them because the intervals had no exact value. I was approximating the 12-EDO intervals, and finding good approximations. Here is the result:
1/1
135/128
9/8
32/27
81/64
4/3
45/32
3/2
128/81
27/16
16/9
256/135
2/1
I just inserted them into lower interval pages. 2A01:119F:2E9:2F00:5D8:E31B:9181:988B (talk) 04:29, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

The trouble is that you seem to be assuming 12-equal tuning, whereas the articles make no such assumption. In fact, most of them are biased toward just intonation, so the "5-limit approximations" are in all cases not approximations at all, but exact fits, as already described in other places in the articles. Therefore, to claim they are only "approximations" contradicts the content of the article.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 15:53, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

Not sure why you reverted my bolding in the lead of

The most common use of boldface is to highlight the first occurrence of the title word/phrase of the article (and often its synonyms) in the lead section, as well as terms that are redirected to the article or its sub-sections. This is done for the majority of articles, but is not a requirement.

As I said in my edit summary, these terms were redirected here. Loraof (talk) 19:03, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

Perhaps I owe you an apology, then. I did not realize that redirects should also be bolded, and it still seems awkward given that the terms in question are not actually synonyms for the article title. Still, the Law is the Law. May I suggest that, for consistency, redirects should also be created for the remaining two (rare) alternative names in that list?—Jerome Kohl (talk) 00:53, 20 August 2016 (UTC)

No problem! I'll create the additional redirects. Loraof (talk) 15:44, 20 August 2016 (UTC)

I see you already did it. Thanks! Loraof (talk) 15:47, 20 August 2016 (UTC)

I only created one of those two redirects. The one for

fluter already existed, but for some reason did not connect directly, but instead first took the reader to the redirect page itself, requiring a second click to reach the "Flute" page. I see that has now been fixed.—Jerome Kohl (talk

) 23:09, 20 August 2016 (UTC)

Also addressing PBS: I was thinking again about the lack of guidance on page ranges in citation templates (123-124 versus 123-4), when I found the question is indeed addressed, if only by example. See Help:Citation Style 1#Pages, where the examples use full-style, not minimal-style. I only wish there were a more specific guidance, either to use full-style or editor-choice. The idea of searching the talk archive for any discussion just exhausts me.

And there I was, thinking that maybe CMOS is right, and about automating a reversion. After all, .NET RE's are powerful enough: ({{[^}]*EB1911[^}]*\| *)pages? *= *(?<lead>\d+)(\d+)[-–]\k<lead>(\d+) replaced by $1pages=${lead}$2-$3. But I now feel more comfortable leaving well alone (and changing to CMOS would anyway be classified as something to be done only after every other inconsistency in WP is fixed, some time in the 23rd century). David Brooks (talk) 22:46, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

Do you really think things are going to move on that quickly, then? ;-)—Jerome Kohl (talk) 00:55, 20 August 2016 (UTC)

I don't appreciate your passive-aggressive nonsense here, but if you looked at what you reverted, you claimed I was removing content because I didn't think a conductor was notable. As a matter of fact, I was removing links to store pages per

I believe I owe you an apology (except for the rude and unwarranted accusation of passive-aggressive behaviour—please see

WP:AGF). I read the edit code rather than checking the actual article display, and from that it appeared you had deleted the two recordings in question. For this error, I apologize unreservedly. I detest as much as you do advertising masquerading as sources. If you have not yourself already reverted my edit, then I shall do so myself forthwith. I leave it to you to decide what to do about calling me names.—Jerome Kohl (talk

) 22:18, 27 August 2016 (UTC)

Hello, Jerome. I know the surname is spelled Granados. I reverted the IP because the spelling correction for some bizarre reason breaks the template and produces this mess, i.e., the version you restored. Best. Voceditenore (talk) 07:18, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

I left a note on Talk:Classical music and fortunately Imaginatorium figured out how to fix the overall problem and fixed the spelling. But as he points out, the Timeline is still less than optimal. Voceditenore (talk) 12:35, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

Good grief! Another triumph of technology over common sense. Well, thanks are owed to Imaginatorium, and I apologise for not realising what was really going on. This should teach me always to check the article after I make an edit!—Jerome Kohl (talk) 21:37, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

Hi, I would like to apologise for my drunken comments about musical theory some days ago. Thank you for clearing away my incoherent rants. Sorry. MinorProphet (talk) 19:14, 19 September 2016 (UTC)

Hi, Jerome Kohl. Please forgive my sudden message. I need your help on article Synthesizer.

As already you know, on article Synthesizer, several anonymous users tend to create the false history of synthesizer without any source for unknown reason, and at least one login user have continuously supported them.

Recently I had corrected one sentence on that article, and also added one citation supporting both before and after modification. However, above login user immediately revert it including citation with a reason "poorly written addition", and even he warn me on my talk page.

It seems unsound spin of issue (

Hi Clusternote. I see from the edit history and from comments posted on your Talk page that the issue seems to involve problems with idiomatic writing of English, more than matters of fact. Perhaps the best way I can help is to act as intermediary, by editing your prose before you try adding anything further. It may also help if you explain to me just what you think is incorrect about the article, and why. Let us try to work things out here on my talk page, and see if that solves the problem.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 23:02, 20 September 2016 (UTC)

A Czech-American who's kept the caron in his surname? A "hat Czech" . Sorry. Here's one, btw. At least I think he is, cause a "hat Pole" just wouldn't work. Basemetal 15:07, 26 September 2016 (UTC)

Ironic, I suppose, that a circumflex is sometimes called a "hat", and yet it is an upside-down caron. Remeš is a fairly common Czech name, yes.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 19:05, 26 September 2016 (UTC)

Given all the grief they must have endured with keyboards I wonder if they didn't encourage junior to take up the organ just so there'll always be five keyboards he'll never have trouble with. Anyway, it was very brave of them to keep the diacritic, as someone told me many in the English speaking world think "diacritics" is a disease. PS: Maybe I shoulda written an "inverted hat Czech" but that would also have meant the reverse of... I can sense some mathematical beauty here though I can't quite... Basemetal 20:44, 26 September 2016 (UTC)

Two of my uncles (on my mother's side) got fed up enough with the haček in the family name (and the confusion about pronunciation caused either by the diacritic or by its absence) that they changed it to a similar, familiar English name. What with extended-Latin keyboard mapping on computers, it is becoming less of a problem to retain diacritics from almost any language, and of course there are many annoying examples of names (especially product names) that insert annoying "special characters" in an effort to çřèäté diśŧiñċţıvĕ ềƒƒəćťş.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 21:20, 26 September 2016 (UTC)

Notifying all named accounts who have edited this article this year. There is a discussion of whether this article should contain foreign language palindromes. If you would like to comment the thread is Talk:Palindrome#Non-English_palindromes_2 Meters (talk) 21:06, 3 October 2016 (UTC)

Hello. You asked whether "Karn Evil 9" is in "irregular 15/8, or compound-quintuple time?". I'm not a music theory expert, but I think it's irregular, since it's the beats are not divided into three equal parts. see Jellynote sheet music. Yoav Nachtailer (talk) 07:29, 4 October 2016 (UTC)

Thanks. That is certainly not compound quintuple time, but it looks like a MIDI transcription of a rhythmically flexible human performance with the grid turned off. I notice that the second bar of "15/8" has only got eight eighth-notes in it. If the apparent errors in the first bar add up to as much as one eighth note, then it is actually two bars of 4/4 rather than one bar of 15/8. Still, if the cited source in the list states it is in 15/8, and this source can be cited to show it is not compound-quintuple time, then that is all that is necessary. "The threshold for inclusion on Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth".—Jerome Kohl (talk) 15:37, 4 October 2016 (UTC)

Hi, gosh, that's a bit drastic. There were (at least) two different ref styles in use in the article before I began, so there wasn't any evident "established reference style". If I broke something tidying things up, then we can readily fix it, it can't be anything very major. Or are you planning to turn all the blue numbers into parentheticals with Harvard citations? Chiswick Chap (talk) 21:12, 7 October 2016 (UTC)

By the way, not sure if you intended this, but you've also destroyed several recently added refs. Chiswick Chap (talk) 21:15, 7 October 2016 (UTC)

I think you will find that there has been an established referencing style for that article since this edit on 25 July 2004. A few very recent edits (starting with this one on 11 June 2016) have introduced a conflicting format, which I am in the process of correcting. If I have "destroyed" any recent references, it certainly was not my intention, and I would appreciate your pointing them out so that I can restore them.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 21:20, 7 October 2016 (UTC)

No one is likely to search a song titled "Tape Loop" under the title of "

My mistake. I misread the hatnote, since it did not mention a song called "Tape Loop". I shall restore your edit, if you have not already done so.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 23:27, 12 October 2016 (UTC)

I'd like your opinion about Diatonic function, harmonic function, tonal function. Thanks — Hucbald.SaintAmand (talk) 12:05, 13 October 2016 (UTC)

Have you ever seen (any of) the music of

I can't say that I have ever heard of this composer, though I am vaguely familiar with Claude Le Jeune's setting of (presumably) the same text. If I recall correctly, it is of epic proportions. A quick Google search suggests that I really should investigate l'Estocart, who seems well represented in the world outside of my own little bubble. Thanks for bringing him to my attention.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 18:00, 18 October 2016 (UTC)

First of all, I wish to thank you for all the contributions you have made on Wikipedia. You are one of the people who make the classical music articles on Wikipedia a more reliable source of information.

I would like to follow up with a few things about the Chávez Toccata. First of all, Thank you for correcting the embarrassing mistake of misspelling the composer's name. I hope I fixed the dead link [2] to the Kennedy Center website. For some reason, any Google search or search within the Center's website brings me only the mobile link. I wonder if there is anything said in the MoS about mobile links like this one.

As for the passage you marked as needing a reference, I made the meaning a little clearer. I meant that Chávez tried to illuminate the timbres and tones of normally atonal, (i.e.: percussion instruments that generally support the rhythm rather than the pitches in most traditional classical compositions). The LA Phil reference [3] states that the piece "makes for an enduring example of melodic, thematic writing for a seemingly non-pitched instrumental family." I understand why that passage might be unclear though. Do you have any suggestions as to how to make it still clearer?

I hope you had a great weekend. Let me know if there is anything I could do to make anything on this section of Wikipedia better. Damibaru (talk) 01:10, 24 October 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for your message, and for your kind words about my work on Wikipedia. Thank you also for initiating the article on the Toccata. I have not yet checked to see whether the dead-link problem has been corrected, but I am mystified by the term "mobile link". I have never come across this term before. Perhaps all will become clear in time. I think I see that you may have confused "non-pitched" with "atonal", which are two quite different things. Now that I understand what you were trying to say, I believe we should be able to resolve the differences in our points of view.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 06:24, 24 October 2016 (UTC)

If you're unhappy with my contribution, then re-format the goddam thing yourself instead of complaining.16:44, 25 October 2016 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by NicholasNotabene (talk • contribs)

Thank you for your kind input. I have already reformatted the entry.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 16:46, 25 October 2016 (UTC)

Hi Jerome. I thought this would be commented on (at least) even before I added it. I was at the Huddersfield Contemporary Music Festival in 1996 when Stockhausen was in attendance. After the concert of the 22 November at the Lawrence Batley Theatre for which Stockhausen had been doing the electronic and sound projection work he stayed behind to sign autographs and chat to people. As I was waiting to get an autograph somebody asked him about Licht and whether it was his intention to have it performed over an entire week, each opera being performed on its named day. In reply he said that he didn't intend that but rather that all of the operas should be performed at the same time and in one place and that the audience should to be free to move around the different operas as they wished. I think this is hugely important. I've tried finding something somewhere on the internet where this has been put in writing but haven't had any success. I'm stumped about where to go next. I think it's worth investigating! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Marosc9 (talk • contribs) 22:42, 31 October 2016 (UTC)

The place to start would be Stockhausen's Texte, starting from volume 5. The story as you tell it has the ring of truth, and the idea of continuous, simultaneous performance is described even in volume 1 of the Texte, though of course not with specific reference to Licht, which at that time was still some twenty years in the future. It is the way he wanted the Klang cycle to be performed, and it has been done more or less this way twice now. I myself spoke with him about the performance of the whole Licht cycle on several occasions, but I cannot recall him describing such a simultaneous situation, except for the last two scenes of Sonntag, of course, and of the unrealised Luziferium. He did emphatically state that the cycle could not possibly be performed consecutively in a single week, and on one occasion (I think it was in May 2000) mentioned his discouragment about an earlier idea of having works (not necessarily Licht, though we were discussing Mittwoch at the time) or parts of one work performed simultaneously in widely separated parts of the planet, with some sort of communications linkup, perhaps via satellite. By that time, he had had enough experience of the time-delays involved in live news broadcasts to realise the impracticality of such a plan. Good luck finding any of this in print or online in reliable sources.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 22:57, 31 October 2016 (UTC)

Hello, Jerome -- I have pretty much finished a copy-edit of China National Center for the Performing Arts Orchestra in response to a request at Wikipedia:WikiProject Guild of Copy Editors/Requests. The editor who made the request, XinqiaoCheng, indicated that this was his/her first article on Wikipedia. I'd like to ask you what you think about the layout of the list of players, at China National Center for the Performing Arts Orchestra#Musicians, and whether you have any suggestions for improving it. I noticed that a space was missing after the player's name and before the position, such as "Principal" and "Associate Principal". I thought before I go ahead and add the missing spaces, I would ask you about the layout in general.  – Corinne (talk) 03:28, 3 November 2016 (UTC)

I see what you mean about the missing spaces, which at least are consistent! I notice that the word "clarinet" is typoed "carinet", and it is more usual to list personnel in orchestral-score order, rather than beginning with the strings. That is: Flutes, Oboes, Clarinets, Bassoons, Horns, Trumpets, Trombones, Tuba, Timpani, Percussion, Harp, Piano, First Violins, Second Violins, Violas, Cellos, Double-basses.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 18:11, 3 November 2016 (UTC)

Oh. That's interesting. XinqiaoCheng Do you want to add the missing spaces and re-arrange the list as suggested by Jerome Kohl?  – Corinne (talk) 02:24, 4 November 2016 (UTC) Thank you, Jerome.  – Corinne (talk) 02:26, 4 November 2016 (UTC)

Thank you both Corinne and Jerome Kohl! I have added the missing spaces and re-arranged the Musicians list. Thanks to your copy editing and recommendations that the article looks much wiki-friendly than before. There were just a few things that I am confused about. I noticed that Corinne deleted some works in the Orchestra's repertoire I mentioned in the article, and I think they can help readers have a better knowledge of what kind of works they played. Maybe it is not appropriate to list them in the lead section, but I am wondering if it could be demonstrated in any non-lead section. Also, there were several sentences regarding their dedication to education and other non-profit act, which makes the Orchestra different from others. I am wondering why it can not be included since it helps readers to have a comprehensive understanding of the organization. Last, the Season section was deleted as well. As a unique plan they carried out every year, it also didn't make sense to me that the seasons have to be deleted. As a newcomer to Wiki community, I have a lot to learn. So please help me if any of my content come across any policies. Thank you both again for your help! --XinqiaoCheng (talk) 03:44, 4 November 2016 (UTC)

XinqiaoCheng Jerome Kohl is in a better position than I am to comment regarding the content of the article. I would just like to point out that I did not remove the content you spoke of. You will see in this edit that it was DRafe who removed some content.  – Corinne (talk) 18:48, 4 November 2016 (UTC)

I have no further comments on the article content. I see that DJRafe has started a discussion on the article's Talk page, in which he explains his reasoning for the removed content.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 20:07, 4 November 2016 (UTC)

I am so sorry for the confusion, Corinne and Jerome Kohl! I will have further discussion with DJRafe about the content. Thank you both a million! —XinqiaoCheng (talk) 03:08, 5 November 2016 (UTC)

21st-century classical music Do my edits help? Or do we need these statements? Iadmc (Jubileeclipman) (talk) 19:03, 11 November 2016 (UTC)

In a word, no, it still made absolutely no sense at all. I have therefore altered it. If you have got a source somewhere that says 20th-century classical music is a style period equivalent to "Baroque music" or "Romantic music" (and, in that sense, different from, say, "15th-century music"), then by all means bring it forward. Assuming that you can do so, it will require a wholesale rewriting of the article 20th-century classical music, starting with its opening sentence.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 19:19, 11 November 2016 (UTC)

Fair enough! That other article needs work, too, anyway. But that's for another time... I've always thought of "20th-century" as a style period as many older text books simply lumped it all together after "Romantic" for want of a better term. We now tend to use Modernism and Post-Modernism so 20th century is covered by them. BTW, the conflict with Contemporary classical music is still as issue. Or is it? Thanks for your cleanup, too. Iadmc (Jubileeclipman) (talk) 20:13, 11 November 2016 (UTC)

No problem! I don't think the style-periodization problem for the 20th century has entirely shaken out yet. For that matter, since about 1980 there has been quite a lot of revisionism regarding the boundaries of the Romantic period (some wanting to push its end back to about 1850, others holding that it should be thought of as continuing at least as far as the 1930s). "20th century" is at least a neutral term, and objective at least until we start bringing up an idea like the "long century", which of course is an effort to create a style era instead of the arbitrary time period. Despite the fact that older textbooks (presumably you mean the very ones I was taught from) can give the impression that "20th century" is entirely equivalent and subsequent to "Romantic era", my teachers were always careful to emphasize that this notion is wrong-headed: the 20th century has/had no unifying style (even as far as it had progressed in those days), and the post-modernismisationalists since about 1970 have of course been emphatic that modernism in music (whatever that might have included) had become a thing of the dim and distant past. I have long felt uncomfortable with certain musical-style labels, especially "medieval" (which covers a very long span of time, with many quite distinct styles), and so prefer to refer to years, decades, or centuries, even if this has got its problems, too. That way, I do not have to decide whether Dufay (for example) was a medieval or a renaissance composer. (Perhaps the recent decision to split his name into two pieces for Wikipedian purposes is an unconscious recognition of this problem.)

The only real problem with "contemporary classical music" is that it is a movable feast. When I was in college, it certainly did not refer to any music after 1975, because that year was still in the future. Now, it seems rather silly to include composers like Bartók, Schoenberg, Webern, and Stravinsky, who were the central figures of "contemporary music" back then. I have no doubt that, in twenty-five-years' time "contemporary music" will exclude anything written before 15 March 2001 (the first day of the 21st century).—Jerome Kohl (talk) 20:39, 11 November 2016 (UTC)

That's always been my problem with "contemporary". Perhaps we can review it once the present article has reached a stage we're all happy with (more or less...) Checking Dufay now... Iadmc (Jubileeclipman) (talk) 21:18, 11 November 2016 (UTC) Or Du Fay then... Iadmc (Jubileeclipman) (talk) 21:21, 11 November 2016 (UTC)

Heh-heh. It might be interesting to add some references to the "contemporary music" article, dating from, say, the 1890s. It is of course a comment on the notion of "modernity" that we would be unlikely to find any such sources from before the Napoleanic era.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 21:32, 11 November 2016 (UTC)

What is "Modern"? Talk to a geologist and everything after the dinosaurs, perhaps. A cosmologist...? Anyway, enough silliness. That's me for the day. Just modded my keyboard to include en and em dashes so I should get it right from now on... Iadmc (Jubileeclipman) (talk) 21:56, 11 November 2016 (UTC)

Do you think enough work has been done on 21st-century classical music to remove the Multiple Issues banner? I think my OR has gone and I have begun to address the UK-centric issue. We need more References for sure so that can stay. Iadmc (Jubileeclipman) (talk) 20:51, 12 November 2016 (UTC)

I have removed the OR tag, since that appears to have been addressed, but the UK bias is still there (even if somewhat ameliorated). It appears that your efforts to deal with this have mainly been the addition of Americans. I still see no real discussion of composers from Germany (e.g.,

Andre Laporte, Boudewijn Buckinx, etc.), not to mention non-European areas (there are exactly two names in the "also-ran" list from Latin America, for example, one from Ecuador and one from Mexico, both of whom have made their reputations largely in Europe—are there really no composers active in the "ABC" countries of Argentina, Brazil, and Chile?). Nothing at all yet on Australia, mostly just also-ran names from Japan, Korea, and China. That also-ran list is a danger, too, since it easily will attract hundreds of additions, some of doubtful importance, and with still-living, active composers it will be more difficult to assess levels of notability than is the case with past ages. No, I think there are still at least two major issues with that article.—Jerome Kohl (talk

) 21:31, 12 November 2016 (UTC)

OK thanks. I'll continue to edit as and when I can to address the bias. I hadn't noticed most of my non-UK textual additions were from the US. The also-ran list will be used to expand the article. The original lists are on the talk page so any adds should be easy enough to check and use/dismiss as necessary. Of course, your input is always welcome. Iadmc (Jubileeclipman) (talk) 23:10, 12 November 2016 (UTC)

Oops! I had forgotten the Talk page had a lot of names on it. I have already begun adding names from some of the neglected areas of the world, and have now alphabetised the list and broken it into three columns.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 23:15, 12 November 2016 (UTC)

Looking good. I'll battle on with the research and get back to it tommorrow, probably. Iadmc (Jubileeclipman) (talk) 23:18, 12 November 2016 (UTC)

Hi there,

I've added a section to the Talk Page:

Talk:Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart#Place of citizenship.

InternetMeme (talk) 20:06, 18 November 2016 (UTC)

Good. I have no interest one way or another in this matter, but it has generated an incredible amount of smoke (and very little light) on several occasions in the recent past. That is why the editorial note reads as it does. Best of luck!—Jerome Kohl (talk) 21:58, 18 November 2016 (UTC)

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I am sorry, but I will be reverting Tango music to an earlier version before your edits. An IP editor removed [[{{{1}}}]] [] links & a reference without explanation. Please be patient & I will restore your edits. Meanwhile, please check with the [https://web.archive.org ] to see if they have any of the dead URLs archived. Peaceray (talk) 00:14, 22 November 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for letting me know. It appears there are a lot of invalid links there, not to mention a lot of sources of dubious reliability. I shall await the outcome of your efforts.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 00:16, 22 November 2016 (UTC)

Thank you for your patience. Yes, please check to ensure that I restored your edits (done manually). Please check [https://web.archive.org ] for archived links. Archived links can be used with the {{cite web}} templates with the archiveurl, archivedate, & |deadurl=yes parameters. Peaceray (talk) 00:23, 22 November 2016 (UTC)

No problem. I am a little impatient with template parameters, but I am aware of the internet archive. When I find a nest of dead links like this, I tend to mark them all first before looking for archives. Sometimes the ArchiveBot gets there ahead of me.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 00:25, 22 November 2016 (UTC)

I wonder if you would consider Global Science Opera Group notable enough for inclusion on Wikipedia? I'm involved as from yesterday and a friend from university has been involved from the start, more or less, so I should stay away from edits involving it per

It's impossible to determine from the project's home page alone whether or not it is notable. Anyone at all with the confidence to create such a page is going to claim (and doubtless sincerely believe in) notability. It does look like the sort of thing that might attract interest in certain circles, but the proof, as they say, is in the pudding. I shall be keeping my eye out for reviews and such. Thanks for bringing this to my attention.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 19:35, 22 November 2016 (UTC)

Wait and see... Fair enough. Thanks. Iadmc (Jubileeclipman) (talk) 21:50, 22 November 2016 (UTC)

Hey there I'm reaching out to you because of your interest in music. I've been attempting to create an article for the artist Blank Banshee

I am flattered that you would think to ask for my help. I have reviewed your draft article, the comments in the rejections of it, and the two other articles you offer as comparables. On the face of things, I'm afraid I must agree with the reviewers' opinions, though I have no knowledge of or interest in the kind of music any of these bands/artists perform. In this sense, I am completely neutral on the issue you raise.

The basic problem with your proposed article is not the quantity of references, but their quality. In one way you are shooting yourself in the foot by frantically documenting every trivial detail in the opening sentence (the lead paragraph should not require any footnotes at all, since it merely summarizes the article content). Seven consecutive footnotes documenting things like the artist's name and the fact that Vancouver BC is a city in Canada has the appearance of desperation, trying to blind the reader with a blaze of footnotes.

The main issue raised by the reviewers is that of

Criteria for musicians and ensembles" and ask yourself whether the sources you are citing really meet the criteria, and whether there are better sources out there to support your case. Best of luck, and if you have any more questions, please feel free to ask.—Jerome Kohl (talk

) 23:22, 27 November 2016 (UTC)

Thank you for your insight. The article does certainly contain an excess of references, I will continue to edit it but I see your point, it may have to be overtaken by another editor in the future as I believe I have done all I can. I am a fan of the genre Blank banshee represents but it may be wise for me to let this draft lie dormant and unpublished until better references are added.Michael lone2004 (talk) 02:06, 28 November 2016 (UTC)

Hello, Jerome -- I was just looking at the latest edit to Fado. If this is correct, then what do you think about posting a welcome template on the editor's talk page? I would only do this, though, if it is unlikely s/he is the same IP editor who has made some less valuable edits to the article recently.  – Corinne (talk) 14:59, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

Do IP editors have talk pages? I believe that welcome messages are automatically placed on talk pages at the time of registration and, as you say, there is no way to tell whether this editor is the same as one or more responsible for earlier IP edits. I think I would give it a miss.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 17:12, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

There are several Wikipedia:Welcoming committee/Welcome templates that one can place on the talk page of an IP editor. It becomes the first section of the new talk page. The messages encourage the IP editor the create an account, and either thanks the editor for constructive editing or discourages them from making poor edits and points them to helpful pages. I post a welcome template occasionally when it is clear that a new editor knew what s/he was doing in making a constructive edit. But if in doubt, I don't use the template.  – Corinne (talk) 02:31, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

(Talk Page Stalker) Just to cut in here... I use Twinkle which has a range of tools and templates to do this. If an editor is a clear vandal, I can place a warning of an appropriate level on the talk page. If they appear constructive, I can place a range different welcome templates there. And no: an IP is not welcomed automatically. Their talk page remains blank until an editor (or a bot) adds something, anything...! Socks are another issue entirely: I tend to seek advice on these. Do what you think right but as both you and Jerome say it is better to error on the side of caution Iadmc (Jubileeclipman) (talk) 03:02, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

My mind boggles. I had no idea all these things were possible, but they sound like good ideas, if used with appropriate caution. Blessings on the gods of Wikipedia, may their names not be used in vain!—Jerome Kohl (talk) 07:05, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

Twinkle (TW in edit summaries) can be enabled from your preferences, if you want to try it. It adds an enormous number tabs to your interface (and renames some) so it may take some getting used to. The documentation is floating around somewhere (accessible from preferences, too, if I recall). It also adds various rollback features to history to revert all latest edits of the editor (in that article) you have taken issue with and opens their talk page to add a standard message re vandalism/welcome/copyvio/coi/whatever-the-issue-is. You can change the suggested message at will and add your own edit summary(s) before saving, IIRC. Very powerful and you don't actually need to be a Rollbacker to use it. Enjoy... Iadmc (Jubileeclipman) (talk) 17:05, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

Woo-hoo! I guess I really am still a beginner, after ten years and 71,000 edits! I have seen notices of Twinkle being used, but haven't been sufficiently motivated to find out what all the fuss is about. Thanks for the pointer.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 18:15, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

Glad to be of help! Iadmc (Jubileeclipman) (talk) 18:17, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

It's far too broad to say that figured bass notation is above the bass line whereas analytical notation is below. It's easy to find examples of figured bass below the bass line.

Although most manuscripts from the time put the figures above, most printed editions, whether old or modern, seem to put them below, and they're still not analytical. —Wahoofive (talk) 07:35, 10 December 2016 (UTC)

I was trying to clarify what the previous editor seemed to intend, which is that figures are not always (or even usually) placed below the bass line. In my experience, most printed editions from the 17th and 18th centuries put the numerals above the bass line, but this experience is limited, mainly to chamber music. In the example you offer, from William Boyce, the reason for placing the figures below the line is clear: It is a vocal score, with text between the staves, which would get in the way of bass figures. Modern printed editions are a different matter. They usually offer an editorial realization of the figures, and placing the numerals between the two staves of the keyboard part is regarded as at least distracting. Still, you are correct and the statement in the figured-bass article needs to be emended—but not put back to the original, incorrect and misleading statement.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 20:41, 10 December 2016 (UTC)

Hi,

I would like to contribute to the Stravinsky's page and clarify his origin according to the sources I have access in Ukrainian.

Here are the official sources I came across: http://volyn-museum.com.ua/index/ustiluzkij_narodnij_muzej_igorja_stravinskogo/0-35 (Stravinsky's house in Ustyluh, Ukraine). http://incognita.day.kiev.ua/museums/stravinskoho/(Museum's virtual tour).

This also is supported by the Ukrainian version of Wikipedia on Stravinsky: https://uk.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A1%D1%82%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B2%D1%96%D0%BD%D1%81%D1%8C%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B9_%D0%86%D0%B3%D0%BE%D1%80_%D0%A4%D0%B5%D0%B4%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B8%D1%87

The English version needs to be updated with this early Ukrainian period of Stravinsky's work. It is important for people to know where Igor was working on his compositions before 1914 in the summer time. Remarkably, he called Ustyluh "my heavenly place", that is where he met his first wife, and where he personally designed and built his own house. The other important facts that points out Stravinsky's Ukrainian roots, missing in English version is that his mother was from Kiev, Ukraine, and his father was singing at the Kiev Opera house for three years before he was offered to move to St. Petersburg to sing for the Mariinsky.

Please help me to restore/edit this portion of the page.

Thank you,

About myself: I am a US University professor, tri-lingual speaker (Ukrainian, Russian, and English). If you need help with any other Russian/Ukrainian articles, please let me know. I will be happy to help.Slavuta33 (talk) 04:01, 15 December 2016 (UTC)

You need to bring this up on the article Talk page, where the subject was raised, discussed, and dismissed five years ago. In that discussion, it was pointed out that no sources had been offered for the claim of Ukranian ancestry. If you now have some to bring forward, please present them there.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 07:17, 15 December 2016 (UTC)

Hi,

Also, the statement "After Russia annexed this part of Poland, the Soulima was dropped, and during the reign of Catherine the Great the family moved to Russia.[6] " This is very inaccurate as Stravinsky's father moved to sing in the Russian opera theater after singing in the Kiev Opera house for three years 1873-1876. Catherine the great died in 1796. Please respond so we can correct this paragraph. There more corrections is needed on Soulima as well. Slavuta33 (talk) 19:35, 15 December 2016 (UTC)

Once again, I must direct you to the article Talk page. I have not yet checked the cited source, but do please keep in mind that on Wikipedia what matters is verifiability, not truth. If you have reason to doubt the reliability of the cited source, or if the source does not actually support the claim, then there are ways of dealing with this. If on the other hand you have a reliable source that contradicts another reliable source cited in the article, then this can be dealt with, as well, though it will mean eplaining that authorities are in disagreement.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 01:35, 16 December 2016 (UTC)

Mind you the editor makes a good point... Catherine the great died 85 years before Stravinsky was born! There's something odd going on here. Alexander III of Russia would likely be the the monarch meant. Has the article been silently vandalised? — Iadmc♫^talk  02:14, 16 December 2016 (UTC) And the source appears to be Craft-Stravinsky which is unlikely to mke such a blunder. I have it somewhere. I'll check in the morning — Iadmc♫^talk  02:16, 16 December 2016 (UTC)

I'm far from well-versed in the political history of Eastern Europe. Are you saying that "this part" of Poland was annexed after the reign of Catherine the Great? By all means let us know what you find in the Craft-Stravinsky book. My copy is in a box in deep storage somewhere.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 04:03, 16 December 2016 (UTC)

The challenge of the editing of Slavic composer's biographies in English version is that it is limited to the English-written sources, which are not very accurate or reliable. In this case, cross-linguistic checking is vital to make sure the information is verifiable in the language of the composer's origin, or those countries he/she lived. In case of Stravinsky it is undeniable fact that he lived in Ukraine and Russia before 1914. So the reference check of the facts needs to be consistent with the historical sources in Ukrainian and Russian. When it comes to the history of Poland, Ukraine, and Russia, we need to keep in mind the fact that Russia occupied these countries for centuries. the maps of Ukraine (and Poland as well) from the beginning of the 17 ct. till the end of the 18 ct. were rewritten many times due to a constant political/military conflicts with Russia, Prussia, and Austria. The quotation on Catherine will be impossible to verify, so I would suggest to drop it. I navigate in the Ukrainian history pretty well, and am a Ukrainian/Russian native speaker too. On the name: A lot of Ukrainians were changing their names to sound more "polish" to receive certain privileges from the polish monarch (around 17 ct.). Also a lot of Ukrainian Cossacks were in status of "registered", which were funded/used by Polish king. That's how "Strava" (eng. meal, food) could become "Stravinsky" very easily. I tried to verify strava or strawa as river's name and I can't find it. Since the reference was made to Soulima, there is a possibility that Stravinsky was related to a well-known hetman Ivan Soulima, who actually was fighting polish army quite successfully back in 1630's. Anyway, I am surprised not seeing any information on Ukrainian connection of Igor Stravinsky. There is nothing on his house he built (which is today the only museum of the composer), Ustyluh town in Ukraine he visited since he was 14, and where he stayed for about 20 years in the summertime. There is nothing on his Ukrainian cousin (who was his mother's sister's daughter) he married. etc.Slavuta33 (talk) 19:31, 16 December 2016 (UTC)

Not had a chance to look at this yet. After new year, probably. I'll review what Slavuta33 has written above too while I'm at it — Iadmc♫^talk  20:31, 16 December 2016 (UTC)

Regarding Stravinsky's Polish ancestry, I have read and understand Jerome Kohl's point about the "challenge of the editing of Slavic composers' biographies in English...which are not very accurate or reliable." However, Stephen Walsh in his entry on Stravinsky in New Grove writes the following:

Stravinsky was in Russian terms a nobleman; his parents were ‘dvoryanine’ or, as we might say, gentry. His mother, Anna Kholodovskaya, was one of four daughters of a high-ranking official in the Ministry of Estates in Kiev, a respectable if dull man who educated his daughters in the correct, somewhat prim manner of the provincial 19th century. Anna grew up a good domestic singer and fluent pianist, a well-organized if strait-laced wife and mother. Her husband, fyodor ignat′yevich Stravinsky, whom she married in Kiev (against her widowed mother's wishes) in 1874 when she was still only 19 and he 30, descended from a long line of Polish grandees, senators and landowners. But since the partition of Poland in the 1790s the Stravinskys had come down in the world, lost their lands and gradually migrated southwards into a remote region of what is now south-eastern Belarus′.

Dr. Kohl, are you aware of this quote? Submitted respectfully, -WMH1978 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wmh1978 (talk • contribs) 21:50, 21 February 2017 (UTC)

Perfectly aware, and also aware of the material in the Craft/Stravinsky conversation books on which Walsh largely relies for this information. I think you have already read the discussion on the Stravinsky Talk Page, which is where any further discussion belongs.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 03:37, 22 February 2017 (UTC)

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Hello, the entry was not of any promotional intention. As Todd Williamsons art tries to hit the bridge from painting to music I think that the entry makes really sense here. Maybe not within the mentioned chapter. Any other idea? Regards, NORPpA (talk) 10:18, 16 December 2016 (UTC)

Well, "Expressionism" in music (as the article on that subject makes fairly clear) refers to music by a certain group of composers active prior to about 1930. I don't think Mr. Williamson qualifies for this historical designation.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 19:49, 16 December 2016 (UTC)

(

Except that his article says he is an abstract-expressionist painter.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 23:50, 16 December 2016 (UTC)

I noticed that you recently edited an article on the topic of Indian classical music, Raga. I have found impenetrable the recent wave of additions (over 30 KB) to the related article on Shruti (music), but was unsure whose attention to bring them to. Would you be interested in reviewing this article, or do you know someone else who would? Thanks again for your efforts. Hftf (talk) 12:33, 28 December 2016 (UTC)

I will take a look, though I have to confess I am far from being an expert on the subject. The word "impenetrable" makes it sound like it is not so much a matter of the substance, but the way in which it is presented. That much, at least, I may be able to deal with.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 19:07, 28 December 2016 (UTC)

This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.