User talk:NinaGreen

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The apricot tree

not only flowered, but bore abundant fruit, and I'm happy to see the metaphor applies. Welcome back Nishidani (talk) 12:31, 26 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks! I wondered about that. :-) NinaGreen (talk) 15:41, 26 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Anne de Mortimer

Thanks for trying to help. I notice that the spammy query about the artist is 8 years old, from an IP, included two spamlinks, and was unsigned. Of course, if the other Anne is in fact notable, then she's notable.

I also wanted to thank you for your work on Anne de Mortimer herself. --Orange Mike | Talk 16:43, 5 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks! And thanks for the heads up on the spammy query. NinaGreen (talk) 16:46, 5 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Help request

I noticed your help page request. If you find an image to append to the end of the lead section of an article, or find a really tall object or image to put at the top of the lead, it will extend downward into the space to the right of the table of contents. See

talk) 00:35, 11 October 2012 (UTC)[reply
]

Thanks for the very useful hint! NinaGreen (talk) 00:37, 11 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Richard [Plantagenet], Earl of Cambridge Paternity Question

I was wondering if you could direct me to where you found the info that Richard of Conisburgh, 3rd Earl of Cambridge may be the product of an affair his mother had. The affair between Isabella and the Duke of Exeter is reported in the year 1379, 6 years before the birth of her son, Richard. How long did the affair last and does this have anything to do with the story The Complaint of Mars by Chaucer?

Your statement which I'm assuming you added seeing how you've edited more than a few things on that page within a few 24 hrs. --
Richard was twelve years younger than his brother, Edward of Norwich, 2nd Duke of York, and may have been the child of an illicit liaison between his mother and John Holland, 1st Duke of Exeter, since he received no lands from his putative father, Edmund of Langley, 1st Duke of York, and is not mentioned in his will.
-- Lady Meg (talk) 04:30, 15 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, you're right, I added the statement. I found it in the source I cited, the ODNB article by Harriss. This is how it appears in Harriss's ODNB article:
Richard was twelve years younger than his brother Edward, duke of York (c.1373–1415), and may have been the product of his mother's illicit liaison with John Holland, earl of Huntingdon (d. 1400), for neither his father nor his brother provided him with land or income and neither mentioned him in his will.
Harriss cites a number of sources at the end of his article, but it's not apparent on the face of these sources where Harriss himself got the idea. You mention that the affair was reported in 1379. Perhaps it might be worth adding that source to the article? NinaGreen (talk) 15:13, 15 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The "affair" was brought up in 1379 via a poem/story by Chaucer where people thought that the characters in the poem represented Isabella and Exeter. So it confuses me as to how something became "known" via a poem in 1379 and the child was thus born years later. I would think by that time, if the affair had been outed, she would have either been divorced or banished to a nunnery instead of "going back to her husband." I seriously wonder if Harriss was commenting on the poem or not which explains:
The 'Compleynt of Mars' an occasional poem of very peculiar character which Chaucer wrote at his request. It refers to incidents which seem to have taken place in the spring of 1379 viz an episode in the chronicle of scandals at the English court of that time. As may be imagined the subject of the poem is presented in an allegorical disguise. The veil indeed is not exactly transparent but the initiated must undoubtedly have known who was meant by Mars and who by Venus. According to the tradition established in the reign of Henry VI by a disciple and copier of Chaucer, Mars represented John Holland third son of Thomas Earl of Kent afterwards Earl of Huntingdon and Duke of Exeter and the Venus of the poem was Isabella, Countess of Edmund Earl of Cambridge who was made Duke of York in 1386. John of Gaunt was doubly related to this Venus Isabella who is reported by a chronicler as being 'mulier mollis et delicata' and towards the close of her life 'satis pxnitens et conversa.' Holland also came after a time into family relationship with Chaucer's patron by marrying Elizabeth the divorced Countess of Pembroke who was a daughter of Blanche and John of Gaunt. The whole atmosphere in this affair is not at all refreshing; John of Gaunt may have followed with a malicious pleasure the progress of the adulterous connection between John Holland and the Countess of Cambridge and when at length a kind of catastrophe supervened he shook with laughter and Chaucer had to write out the story for him in flowing rhymes. In order to escape the growing suspicion and to enjoy each other with less disturbance it appears the enamored couple had agreed upon a short separation with a subsequent assignation at a remote castle belonging to the absent Earl of Cambridge John Holland went there first Isabella soon followed by a circuitous route... It continues on page 75, It is not absolutely certain that the above outline is correct in every point. Possibly we should consider the situation as abstract rather than local and concrete, there may have been obstacles to close intercourse rather than intervening distance instead of surprise in a castle there may have been merely a threatened discovery of their love affairs and a consequent constraint to suspend for a time their intimacy. But the affair as it actually happened was certainly not wanting in many realistic and pungent touches. History of English Literature -- Lady Meg (talk) 21:44, 15 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for this information. Harriss doesn't mention this literary evidence in his cited sources, although he might well have been aware of it, and put it together with the fact that Richard wasn't given any lands by his father, and wasn't mentioned in either his father's or his brother's wills to reach the conclusion that Richard may have been the child of an affair between his mother and Holland. I've changed the statement to attribute the conjecture specifically to Harriss in the text of the article. Perhaps we can both look around for further mention of the alleged affair in other reliable sources, and depending on what we find, alter the article accordingly? NinaGreen (talk) 15:11, 16 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I can't help wondering, Lady Meg, what weight should we give to a tradition established in the reign of Henry VI, two or three generations after the events? Moonraker (talk) 22:00, 20 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks

Good job on 15th earl. Tom Reedy (talk) 13:02, 24 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks! NinaGreen (talk) 16:33, 24 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Articles edited

I have created a very impressive list of 119 articles that you have edited since September 2012 (I have tools to manipulate text, and this is simply a tricky search-and-replace on all your contributions since then). I hope you don't mind, but as I believe this will be useful, I have created your

sandbox with the list, see User:NinaGreen/Sandbox. It's easy to move that or have it deleted if you like (ask if wanted). Johnuniq (talk) 01:05, 31 October 2012 (UTC)[reply
]

And see here. Moonraker (talk) 01:27, 31 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you both very much! This is really helpful. NinaGreen (talk) 20:05, 31 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Don't give up

It appears you're not gonna make it this time, but don't give up: time has an irritating tendency to pass too quickly, and you'll surely be successful in the future.

Pro tip: instead of linking to open edits to illustrate an edit, link to the diffs instead. That way the chances of an unintended edit are much less. Tom Reedy (talk) 05:17, 6 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Seconded, Nina. Still, I have my cingers frossed. Ya never know.
Tom: only proves we've very little heft round here! Or perhaps it's just that anything I, a former denisov of the perma-frosted gulag, might say as a character witness backfires and makes for a dubious reference. Nishidani (talk) 17:49, 6 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the tip, Tom, and for the amusing allusion, Nishidani. :-) NinaGreen (talk) 23:44, 6 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I thought you'd appreciate the content as well as the technical info. Tom Reedy (talk) 05:33, 7 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Mary Hungerford: Earls of Northumberland

I have reversed your edit on Mary Hungerford. The reasons are in the talk page. Trahelliven (talk) 20:24, 10 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for letting me know. I've put some comments there for your consideration. NinaGreen (talk) 20:56, 10 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I put a reference from tudorplace [1]. Trahelliven (talk) 02:09, 11 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Amendment request declined

Hi Nina. I have removed your amendment request, as there was no support from any Arbitrators to take action on it. I would advise waiting at least six months before reapplying to the Committee. Best, NW (Talk) 01:55, 11 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Can you advise where the record of the request has been moved to so I can bookmark it. I can no longer find it at. Thanks. NinaGreen (talk) 02:08, 11 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Shame about the outcome—I'm not sure the arbitrators realized the significance of the supports from Tom Reedy and Nishidani. Some of the early supports were overly enthusiastic and misguided in their approach, and that might have had a negative effect (Arbcom hates agreeing to anything that looks as if it may rekindle disputes). It would be best to not respond to my thoughts—I'm just letting you know my opinion, and further analysis would probably be unhelpful.
I believe declined requests are not saved anywhere apart from in the page history. The permanent link to the page showing the request as it was just prior to removal is here. Johnuniq (talk) 02:22, 11 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I've just noticed that the report has been moved to the talk page (here). I don't know if it will stay there permanently. Johnuniq (talk) 02:27, 11 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
It should, unless it gets archived in the future to a subpage of that page (e.g. Wikipedia talk:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Shakespeare authorship question/Archive 1). NW (Talk) 03:57, 11 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
A very low-quality process, I'm afraid, typified by the blatant gilding of the lily by Newyorkbrad. Does anyone here have an opinion on whether he should be taken to task for it? I hear what Johnuniq says above, and perhaps my intervention was unhelpful, but I was properly invited to take part, and it would be crazy if I or others were expected to change our view. The contribution to the discussion by Iantresman suggests to me that if such injudicious stuff were to continue it ought not to be impossible to reopen the question of the original findings, whether the "arbitrators" hate it or not. Moonraker (talk) 05:47, 11 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The contribution to the discussion by Iantresman suggests to me that he didn't know what he was talking about. I suggest you review every page of the arbitration case and reassess why you think the original ban was unjustified (or you could just review these examples). Since that ArbCom decision, the SAQ page has reached FA status, an accomplishment that would have been impossible had the editing situation been left unchanged, and it has had a positive impact on the related articles,
There's no reason to go on about this, Moonraker. The original decision was fair, a process has been laid out for Nina to return to unrestricted editing, that process is entirely consistent with other cases of this nature, and I have no doubt she'll achieve it. Going on about it is unproductive and a waste of your time and energy. Tom Reedy (talk) 17:55, 11 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
It's one thing to take it on the chin, which I'm sure Nina can. But it's unhelpful to lead with the chin when stepping in as a paladin to fight someone else's battle, as a few folks in there did in suggesting that the process was at fault. The next time round, say 4 months, could 'friends' just stay out of this. I'm sure with the work Nina will do in the interim, and strong support from Tom, Johnuniq and myself, and I hope you too, Moonraker, as well as a few others, this request will get closer attention. I've never found NewyorkBrad anything but fair and equitable (I don't brownnose, but I don't allow caution to get in the way of saying what I think), nor NW for that matter. These people have a far wider range of concerns and perspectives than most of us, because they have an experienced insight into how fragile the positive work, esp. the stuff that gets past FA, of wikipedia can prove to be unless caution rules the roost. Seeing support from quarters that are both partisan and critical of the due process that took place did not augur well. A lesson's been learnt. If Nina continues her work, I'm sure it's only a matter of four or five months before this can be positively reconsidered. (Cheers Nina) Nishidani (talk) 18:23, 11 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

First of all, let me express my sincere thanks to everyone from the Wikipedia community who supported my request! The support from the community was unanimous.

In light of the unanimous support for my request from those in the Wikipedia community who responded, I feel I should express once again my opinion that the Wikipedia arbitration process needs substantive reform. In the original arbitration I expressed my complete bewilderment at what was going on. It's clear that as a new and inexperienced editor I had wandered into a firestorm of controversy over the Shakespeare authorship issue which had been going on on Wikipedia for years, and which I had been no part of. The arbitration was brought on the ground that there was a conspiracy among Oxfordian editors, but not a scintilla of evidence of a conspiracy was introduced during the entire arbitration. The reason for that is clear. There was no conspiracy. Instead of dropping the arbitration for lack of proof of any conspiracy, as I had requested, the arbitrators focussed all their attention on me. The time period for adducing evidence elapsed, and I protested that no specific evidence had been adduced against me, and that I could not respond without knowing the case (if any) I had to meet. At that point, the time period for providing evidence was re-opened on the spurious grounds that another editor needed further time to respond because of family circumstances. No further evidence was adduced by or on the part of that editor (whose identity was never disclosed during the arbitration). Instead, further 'evidence' was adduced against me, and the case was immediately closed again, and I was slapped with what must be among the most Draconian sanctions Wikipedia has ever imposed on anyone.

It is clear that there is no due process or transparency in a Wikipedia arbitration, and no clarity whatsoever as to what is actually being arbitrated and what case an editor who finds him/herself in an arbitration has to meet. I'm quite willing to admit that I could have handled Talk page discussions better, but so could any number of editors involved in those same Talk page discussions, and none of them received even the most minimal of sanctions by the arbitrators.

One learns from experience, which is sometimes a harsh mistress, and I hope that my experience can help to improve the Wikipedia arbitration process. To that end, when Steven Zhang of the Wikipedia Foundation asked me to participate in a survey concerning Wikipedia dispute resolution procedures, I responded to the survey. In addition to requesting completion of the survey, Steven Zhang requested volunteers to be part of a group which would offer suggestions for the improvement of Wikipedia dispute resolution procedures. I volunteered to do so at least three times, suggesting that my experience with arbitration had given me some insights which would be helpful in improving the arbitration process. Steven Zhang completely ignored my offer to participate.

My Wikipedia account remained blocked for months after the one-year ban had expired, and there appears to be no process on Wikipedia for ensuring that accounts are automatically unblocked when fixed-time period sanctions expire. So that is one area obviously in need of substantive reform. There needs to be a process for unblocking accounts when fixed time period sanctions have expired because when a user's account is totally blocked, there's no way of contacting Wikipedia to get it unblocked. And why should a user have to do that in any event? The account should be automatically unblocked.

Once my account was unblocked, I began editing biographies of English historical personages from the Middle Ages and Tudor periods. I have considerable background knowledge in this area, and access to reliable sources of very high quality. Before I requested that the topic ban be lifted a short time ago, I had edited over 120 of these Wikipedia articles, sourcing unsourced statements, providing in-line citations, and expanding articles which were stubs. I suspect it would be difficult to find many other editors in the entire Wikipedia universe who contributed anything approaching that amount to Wikipedia in that short space of time. However if the arbitrators took any notice whatsoever of the volume and quality of my contributions during the past two and half months, or of the fact that my contributions were in an area which is now relatively neglected by other Wikipedia editors, and in which there are notices on many many articles indicating that they are in need of improvement, it was not evident in the slightest from the arbitrators' comments. Not a single arbitrator appears to have taken any of this into consideration, and my request was abruptly closed off yesterday on the ground that the arbitrators simply weren't interested in lifting the topic ban. It is obvious to any disinterested observer that when those in a position to decide can merely say, 'We're not interested in doing anything', there is no due process and no transparency, and no Wikipedia editor can feel confident that he/she will be given fair treatment.

Moreover the arbitrator who authored the original arbitration decision added unsubstantiated new allegations in his comments regarding my request that the topic ban be lifted, and it was rightly pointed out by another editor that those new allegations by that arbitrator could not, in fact, be substantiated. The record clearly shows that I did not at any time specifically advocate for Oxford's authorship of the Shakespeare plays.

In addition, the path forward was not made clear in the slightest. There was no agreement whatsoever among the arbitrators as to what would be expected of me if I were to apply at a future date to have the topic ban lifted, or when such an application might be favourably received. And in fact the comments from several of the arbitrators that they had not the slightest interest in lifting the indefinite topic ban strongly suggests that there is no path forward, and that they will never agree to it being lifted, despite the fact that it has now been in place for almost two full years.

Moreover the comments from members of the Wikipedia community who offered support in my request to have the indefinite topic ban lifted were viewed with deep suspicion by some of the arbitrators, as though anyone who had anything positive to say about my work was somehow also suspect, and that was the case in the original arbitration as well, as the record shows. And some comments made earlier on this page suggest that in any future application I might make anyone who has anything positive to say about my work should just stay out of it. One can well imagine what the result would be for my application if that advice were taken, and anyone who had anything to say in support of my work just shut up, leaving the field to those who keep harping on the erroneous findings of the original arbitration.

In brief, neither the arbitration process nor the process governing requests for the lifting of indefinite topic bans provides for fairness, due process or transparency, and I would hope the entire Wikipedia community, including Jimmy Wales, would get behind an effort to put in place the substantive improvements which are needed to guarantee fairness, due process, and transparency, specifically:

(1) Editors need to know the specific case they have to meet, which implies that the arbitrators should never take on a case alleging a vast conspiracy without first requiring evidence establishing the alleged conspiracy, and if none is forthcoming, the arbitration should not be taken on.

(2) When an editor says, 'I don't know what the case is which I have to meet, and which specific Wikipedia policies I'm alleged to have violated', the arbitrators should spell out the details with specific diffs. In my case, the specific policies which I was alleged to have violated were never spelled out.

(3) If a large number of editors are swept into an arbitration, the case against each one should be spelled out very specifically, and those against whom there is no case should be immediately excused. One of the reasons for the vast amount of confusion in the original arbitration is that a very large number of people were dragged into it who had nothing to do with it, and it was never clear what the arbitration was about.

(4) Before a decision is voted on by the arbitrators, specific findings of fact, supported by diffs, should be spelled out, so that it is transparently clear to everyone exactly what the arbitrators are voting on.

(5) Before an arbitration is taken on, there should be a clear statement, supported by diffs, of the earlier steps in dispute resolution which were taken, and if no earlier steps have been taken, the case should not be taken on. In my case, no earlier steps were taken.

(6) Any decision by the arbitrators should include clear parameters as to what further steps need to be taken (if any) to lift the sanctions, particularly in the case of indefinite topic bans.

(7) Accounts should be automatically unblocked when fixed time period sanctions have expired.

(8) There should be a clear process set out as to what happens when a request is made to lift an indefinite topic ban. I was completely bewildered by what happened during my recent application. Arbitrators made laconic comments stating they didn't feel like doing anything, comments voicing suspicion, comments adding additional unsubstantiated allegations, etc. etc. The process seemed completely haphazard. And in the end the process was cut off abruptly without any agreement among the arbitrators as to what they would consider sufficient if I eventually reapplied, or when they would consider it suitable that I reapply.

I appreciate that the arbitrators have a thankless job, but there are a lot of editors out here on Wikipedia also doing what is, in essence, a thankless job. And we're all doing it for the common good because we feel Wikipedia is a worthwhile project which contributes to the store of human knowledge. I hope my comments will be taken in that light. They constitute a bona fide attempt to improve Wikipedia.

I would also like to add that it is one of Wikipedia's policies to encourage women editors, and I can't help but wonder how women editors would be encouraged by my experience on Wikipedia, which seems to smack in at least some measure of overt male chauvinism. NinaGreen (talk) 21:38, 11 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Nina, when you're trying to walk up stairs it doesn't help to wear roller skates. Tom Reedy (talk) 14:31, 12 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Tom, the arbitrators made it clear I'm never going to walk up those stairs. :-) The minimum anyone should be able to expect from an application is an clear-cut decision from the arbitrators as to the path forward, i.e. how long to wait before the next application, and what steps need to be taken to ensure the application will not be turned down a second time, and all the arbitrators agreed on was that they 'didn't feel like doing anything'. Who in their right mind would ever want to go through such a humiliating and bewildering process a second time? There's nothing in the world which can't benefit from improvement, and the Wikipedia arbitration process is no exception. I've set out 8 specific suggestions above, and I hope they will be circulated in the Wikipedia community, and that everyone in the Wikipedia community will get behind them, including Jimmy Wales, so that there is fairness, due process, and transparency in Wikipedia arbitrations and follow-up applications, something which is sorely lacking at the present time. NinaGreen (talk) 03:33, 13 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with everything Nina says, and I also stand by my comment above about "the blatant gilding of the lily by Newyorkbrad", who plainly invented a new original offence without anyone except me minding or pointing it out. The contributions from the concerned editors were generally thoughtful, informed, and intelligent, but what ought to have been the judicial process was almost wholly subjective, unreasoning, and injudicious, quite like the original arbitration, but worse. If all the submissions to the arbitrators are to be treated as irrelevant, even when unanimous, what on earth is the point of anyone's making any? If a judge in an English court, or a member of an English tribunal, behaved in such a way he or she would be in very hot water. Moonraker (talk) 11:18, 17 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
NB I have just read through the Amendment request and I see that Newyorkbrad says "I authored the original decision in this case", a point which I had forgotten. As the leading arbitrator has been observed wildly exaggerating the original offences, there is a strong case for the original decision to be reviewed by someone independent of it; indeed, someone completely independent of Wikipedia is needed for the decision to be suitably tested. Moonraker (talk) 11:38, 17 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Can I state the painfully obvious here. Nina, I supported your re-emergence into editing, and I would have supported lifting the restriction on editing other than in the SAQ area (so you would have been able to edit articles on the historical persons). What guaranteed that your request received zero support from the Committee was the parade of "supporters" insisting that the sanction should be overturned on the basis that the original decision was the wrong one. Since everyone who was sanctioned in that case was horribly disruptive, this was a complete non-starter as an effective argument. Worse, it gave the impression that you did not understand that your editing had (maybe unintentionally, but the effect was the same) been disruptive. And even worse, it gave the impression that you were likely to start up again with the disruptive edits.
  • I don't think that you have lost all chance of being allowed to edit without restrictions, but your statement above has made it a lot less likely. You really do need to go back and understand why your behaviour caused such a problem that you still have a sanction. As with anyone who has strong views on a topic, you need to be able to edit neutrally, and this is what you have to convince the Committee that you understand if you are to get the sanction lifted. You need to show that you have moved on from the problems that gave rise to the original decision. You need more people saying 'Nina's editing has been neutral, well-researched, and valuable' and less people saying 'should never have been sanctioned in the first place.'--Elen of the Roads (talk) 12:51, 17 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • What Elen of the Roads says is every bit as lacking in balance and objectivity as the arbitration process and the consideration of the Amendment request themselves were. She says -
  1. "Can I state the painfully obvious here." Absolutely nothing of what follows is obvious, and what follows is painful only in its absurdity.
  2. "Nina, I supported your re-emergence into editing..." Once the block on Nina had expired, there was no question of supporting or opposing that. This comment is very like saying "I supported your release from prison once you had served your sentence."
  3. "...and I would have supported lifting the restriction on editing other than in the SAQ area (so you would have been able to edit articles on the historical persons)." Here there is a division of the Amendment request into two parts, and the different responses of Elen of the Roads to those parts are not reasoned and are certainly not "painfully obvious". What is said purports to show the start point of Elen's thinking. In the event, she did not support lifting the topic ban in respect of "the historical persons", and she goes on to explain that outcome in terms of the behaviour of people other than Nina. This is also not "painfully obvious"; rather, it is painfully injudicious.
  4. "What guaranteed that your request received zero support from the Committee was the parade of "supporters" insisting that the sanction should be overturned on the basis that the original decision was the wrong one." This statement raises several issues. Firstly, Nina has no ability to control what is said by others, so why on earth should she be punished for any of it? Secondly, if Elen of the Roads takes the trouble to read through all of the arbitrators' responses she will find that the request did not receive "zero support from the Committee": this is an overstatement which is sadly typical of the whole of this arbitration process (which did not even begin as a complaint specifically targetted against Nina). Thirdly, the melodramatic expression the parade of "supporters" is plainly injudicious. Why use the word "parade"? A parade is always highly organized and regimented, but what it is seeking to describe was simply a series of concerned editors who individually support Nina, some of them on the basis described, some not. So Elen's choice of word is improper and must demonstrate prejudice. Why on earth should Elen of the Roads object to Nina's having a series of supporters? And goodness only knows why she decided to put "supporters" in quotation marks. What is that implying? Is she suggesting that those concerned were not in fact supporters, and if so on what basis? Lastly, only a minority of the contributors to the request suggested that the original decision was the wrong one, but anyone doing so is perfectly entitled to voice that opinion and nothing adverse to Nina can properly be drawn from it.
  5. "Since everyone who was sanctioned in that case was horribly disruptive..." I suppose "everyone who was sanctioned in that case" is intended to include Nina, so "horribly disruptive" refers to her.
  6. "this was a complete non-starter as an effective argument..." I agree that the purpose of the request was not to overturn the original decision, but no one argued that that should happen. As an argument in mitigation, it must be admissible that some contributors felt that the original "offences" had been punished too severely.
  7. "Worse, it gave the impression that you did not understand that your editing had (maybe unintentionally, but the effect was the same) been disruptive." This is irrational. How could the comments of other users give any impression about what Nina did or did not understand?
  8. "...that your editing had (maybe unintentionally, but the effect was the same) been disruptive." This concedes that Nina's editing may have been unintentionally "disruptive". That is an important point, and I should have thought that arriving at that view ought to have led Elen of the Roads into supporting the request, as the whole concept of culpable "disruption" must surely include some intention to disrupt. In any event, it is hard to see how the editing of anyone as rational as Nina could be both "unintentionally disruptive" and "horribly disruptive" (see point (5) above).
  • If necessary I can offer an analysis of the second paragraph from Elen of the Roads, part of which echoes elements of the first, but for now it is enough to say that all of her comments seem to me to be coloured by emotion and poor reasoning. Moonraker (talk) 22:17, 17 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Elen of the Roads, you stated above that 'everyone who was sanctioned in that case was horribly disruptive'. In fact, the only person who was sanctioned in the original arbitration was me. Although the arbitration was launched on the spurious grounds that there was a vast conspiracy among Oxfordian editors, not a scintilla of evidence of any such conspiracy was adduced, and the entire weight of the arbitrators came down full force on me. (Smtprt, with whom I'd never edited because he was under a ban the whole time I was editing, wasn't sanctioned in the arbitration; he merely used the arbitration as a vehicle to apply to have the earlier sanctions against him lifted, which didn't happen. And if the arbitrators are of the view that Smtprt was 'horribly disruptive', that has absolutely nothing to do with me because any editing Smtprt did on Wikipedia was before my time, and I should not be tarred with guilt by association.)

You also wrote, 'You really do need to go back and understand why your behaviour caused such a problem'. I told the arbitrators during the arbitration what caused the problem, namely that I was not allowed to make a single substantive edit on the SAQ page. Every single substantive edit I made was instantly reverted by other editors, and every single substantive edit I suggested was argued about endlessly on the Talk page by other editors. Any one of the arbitrators can go back to the SAQ page and see that for him/herself. Yet none of those other editors was sanctioned by the arbitrators, or even came in for the slightest criticism from the arbitrators.

You also wrote, 'You need more people saying 'Nina's editing has been neutral, well-researched, and valuable' and less people saying 'should never have been sanctioned in the first place.' Why do I need that? In the first place, all the editors who commented during my application supported the lifting of the sanctions. Secondly, and more importantly, I provided the arbitrators with a list of 120 articles I've edited in the past two and half months (since then I've edited several dozen more articles, usually revising them from top to bottom, adding references and in-line citations). Why couldn't the arbitrators go take a look for themselves at some of those articles and make up their own minds as to whether my editing is 'neutral, well-researched and valuable'? It undoubtedly is 'neutral, well-researched and valuable', and if the arbitrators would bother to take a few minutes to look at it, they'd see that.

You also wrote, 'You need to show that you have moved on'. All the editors in the Wikipedia community who responded to the application indicated that they are ready to move on. I'm ready to move on. The only ones who aren't ready to move on, and who seem to want to keep harping indefinitely on the past, are the arbitrators. Surely that's not what Wikipedia is about. Why don't the arbitrators just lift the indefinite ban? If things turn out badly, the arbitrators can just re-impose the ban. What have they got to lose? Nothing. But things won't turn out badly. Things will be just fine if the indefinite ban is lifted.NinaGreen (talk) 01:32, 18 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I agree, although that is not going to surprise anyone. There were clearly fundamental problems with the Request for Amendment process in this case, which I suspect must reflect equally fundamental problems with the process in general. This one happened without anyone except the applicant defining what was going on and what issues needed to be considered. Some arbitrators began to jump in to give their decisions before the views of the editing community concerned with the matter had been heard. Indeed, only one of them showed any real interest in listening to the views of the community. Even when those views proved to be unanimous, most arbitrators felt that the real issue was whether the original decision had been correct, and that led to the community's views on developments since the Arbitration being completely ignored. The lead arbitrator at the Arbitration (that is, the author of the original decision), exaggerated the original findings and was able to get away with that because even when it was pointed out on the page that he had done so nobody cared. Most arbitrators proved to be opinionated, did not analyse the issues or take a reasoned approach to resolving them, and in voting did no more than to offer a few curmudgeonly remarks. The whole process seems incapable of being anything but crazy.
The Wikipedia community is self-regulating, but what other worldwide organization with millions of members would allow the decisions of its disciplinary process to be taken by opinionated people with no relevant training and (rather critically, I think) no legal advice? As Wikipedia grows in importance, there surely needs to be a much more professional approach to such matters. Moonraker (talk) 18:08, 18 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I have left a note about this matter at User talk:Michael Snow. Moonraker (talk) 19:34, 18 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I just now read this wall of text and I'm astounded at the stubborn refusal to face reality that is on display here and the idiotic idea that any of this is helping anything. Wikipedia is not a U.S. (or any other) governmental agency, and Constitutional and legal arguments don't apply here. For a brief moment I thought about rebutting all of Nina's points with examples from her diffs, but a sufficient number was presented at the original arbitration, and I don't even care anymore. I suspect nobody else does either, since it appears that any change exhibited by Nina was merely cosmetic. Suffice to say that the next such request for clarification will not have my support or participation. Tom Reedy (talk) 20:46, 18 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
That strikes me as unexpected, Tom. It is not the first "wall of text" the affair has generated, and you know better than most editors here that complicated problems call for a careful analysis. I am surprised if you are not concerned about the matters raised above by Nina and others raised by me. You say
"Wikipedia is not a U.S. (or any other) governmental agency, and Constitutional and legal arguments don't apply here." Indeed, Wikipedia is not in any sense a public body, it is rather like a co-operative or even a private members' club, but it is a significant one, with millions of members. On your word "constitutional", so far as U.S. citizens (I am not one) can rely on constitutional rights in their everyday lives, they should be able to rely on them in their relationship with Wikipedia. On your statement "legal arguments don't apply here", I broadly agree with you if you mean that there is little legislation which has a bearing on on what is acceptable behaviour on this web site, but nevertheless we have policies which should carry out that role for each Wikipedia project. Even in running their own affairs, private members' clubs and societies are subject to the law of the land they are based in, and most of them would accept that the concepts of natural justice and human rights should be respected. The notion of an arbitration process which is injudicious and arbitrary is alien to all the high principles rightly promoted by Wikipedian leaders like Jimmy Wales and Michael Snow.
"... a stubborn refusal to face reality" To me this looks more like a stubborn refusal to accept the evident flaws of a process which needs to be improved. If you cannot see that there are any flaws, then you are one for the status quo, whatever it is.
"...I don't even care anymore. I suspect nobody else does either, since it appears that any change exhibited by Nina was merely cosmetic." Forgive me, I thought the central issue here was whether Nina's editing was constructive, valuable, orderly, etc? Nothing has changed on that front. If for you the central issue was that everyone (including Nina) should accept that the outcome of the original Arbitration was correct, that was really not the subject of the Request.
"Suffice to say that the next such request for clarification will not have my support or participation." If you take no part in the next request you will of course not be heard. All the same, the anger you have displayed here surprises me. Moonraker (talk) 23:27, 18 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Your irrelevant blabber does not surprise me, but it is surprising that you discern anger where there is none. That appears to be a classic case of projection or misreading, probably both.
Enough. No more of this for me. Continue with your pole vaulting over this rat turd as you so choose and if you honestly think you're doing any good for anybody besides your spleen. I'll not stand in your way. Tom Reedy (talk) 01:24, 19 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
And the end of all our exploring will be to arrive where we started. Moonraker (talk) 04:24, 19 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • You do go on, Tom. Listen to me instead. I think all our exploring has reached the kernel of the nut: the arbitrators are opinionated, unreasoning and injudicious. Moonraker, by contrast, is fair-minded, analytical and sane. Rare qualities, sorely needed on the imbecile committee. Moonraker, did you know there's an ArbCom election starting right now? Why don't you throw your hat in the ring, and stand for arbcom on a platform of, as you say, "a much more professional approach"? You don't have to be an admin or anything to run for arbcom — just a user in good standing with a reasonable edit count — 500 mainspace edits or something like that, I think. Obviously you'd ace that. This page is where you post your candidacy and election statement. You've got till 20 November 23:59 UTC. Bishonen | talk 19:08, 19 November 2012 (UTC).[reply]
Bishonen, it seems clear that your comment is intended to be sardonic, which suggests that you object to the analysis of the issues on this talk page and prefer instead such trash as the inventing by Newyorkbrad of a new and supposedly serious offence which he has claimed was committed by Nina, one for which there is no history, and the irrational thought processes of Elen of the Roads. If so, then you are yourself part of the problem. In any event (pretending for a moment to take your suggestion seriously) ArbCom is far too arbitrary a body for me to want to be part of it as it is set up for now. Its ethos is cracked and its processes plainly need major reform. Moonraker (talk) 02:37, 21 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Charles Arundell

Nina, I was thinking of starting a page on Charles Arundell, the brother of Matthew Arundell, but I want to be sure he is notable. Do you have any thoughts? Moonraker (talk) 02:26, 21 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I think he could be considered sufficiently notable from the perspective of:
(1) Family connections. He was the son of the convicted traitor, Sir Thomas Arundel, beheaded on Tower Hill on 26 February 1552, and Margaret Howard, the daughter of Lord Edmund Howard and sister of Queen Katherine Howard, and was thus a kinsman of Queen Elizabeth. His niece by marriage was Southampton’s sister, Mary Wriothesley.
(2) His role in political intrigue. He and Lord Henry Howard were briefly imprisoned in the Tower at Christmas 1580 after being denounced as traitors to the Queen by Oxford, and Arundel spent the next seven months or so under house arrest. In the wake of the Babington plot in 1583 he fled to Paris in the company of Thomas, Lord Paget, brother of the conspirator, Charles Paget. Although his role isn’t entirely clear, he seems to have been involved in putting the English ambassador in Paris, Sir Edward Stafford, into contact with Philip II of Spain. In the ODNB article on Stafford, James McDermott says Stafford was in close communication with Arundel, and in early 1587 Arundel secretly acted as a mediator between Stafford and Bernadino de Mendoza, Philip II's ambassador in Paris, to offer Stafford's services as a spy. Arundel was given 2000 crowns to pass on to Stafford. He died in Paris in 1587, perhaps poisoned. He is sometimes referred to as 'Sir Charles Arundel', a knighthood having allegedly been bestowed on him by King Philip of Spain.
(3) His reputed authorship of Leicester's Commonwealth. Dwight C. Peck argued, in his edition of Leicester’s Commonwealth, that Arundel was the anonymous author.NinaGreen (talk) 03:58, 21 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, I think the uncertainty on the last matter was my main worry, but the main question here is probably whether he meets
WP:N by being dealt with in enough reliable sources - are you in a position to estimate the number? Moonraker (talk) 04:06, 21 November 2012 (UTC)[reply
]
I don’t know that I could estimate an actual number, but Arundell is mentioned in recent books by the historians Victor Houlihan (Catholic Resistance in Elizabethan England, p. 13) ; Michael Questier (Catholicism and Community in Early Modern England, pp. 88-154); Paul. E.J. Hammer in The Polarization of Elizabethan Politics; John Bossy in his article in Recusant History, ‘English Catholics and the French Marriage 1577-1581'; by the historian James McDermott (as noted earlier) in his article on Sir Edward Stafford in the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography; rather extensively by Alan Nelson in Monstrous Adversary; by Douglas Richardson in Magna Carta Ancestry; and (as noted earlier) by Dwight Peck in his edition of Leicester’s Commonwealth. A quick search of the internet indicates that Arundel is mentioned by Donna Hamilton in Anthony Munday and the Catholics; by J.E. Neale in an article in the English Historical Review entitled ‘The Fame of Sir Edward Stafford’; by Katy Gibbons in English Catholic Exiles in Late Sixteenth Century Paris, p. 24; by Samuel Hopkins in The Puritans, Vol. II, p. 506; by Joanna Rickman in Love, Lust and Licence in Early Modern England, p. 32; by Stephania Tutino in Law and Conscience; Catholicism in Early Modern England 1570-1625, p. 60; by Richard C. McCoy in The Rites of Knighthood, p. 174; by Thomas McCoog in The Society of Jesus in Ireland, Scotland and England, p. 253, and perhaps others I may have missed. Most of the authors are historians, and the books were published by academic publishers.NinaGreen (talk) 16:55, 21 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
That's more than I was aware of, so I shall make a start on a basic page and hope you will be able to get around to building it up. I expect it will be one for
DYK. Moonraker (talk) 01:57, 22 November 2012 (UTC)[reply
]
Fast work! I added a further citation for Arundell's family background, and made one change to the text, substituting the views of historians who have recently commented on Leicester's Commonwealth for 'recent editions' of the tract as I don't know of anyone who has edited it since Peck. Do you have a suggestion as to what could be submitted to
DYK? NinaGreen (talk) 17:18, 22 November 2012 (UTC)[reply
]
Yes indeed, I found some better information than expected and got on with it. Have only just noticed that Arundell is mentioned several times in our article on Oxford. Will look out for another collaboration. Moonraker (talk) 04:28, 24 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure whether this would interest you, but the article on Henry Wriothesley, 2nd Earl of Southampton is just a stub [2], and I'm sure we could find material to improve it. NinaGreen (talk) 00:57, 27 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The father of a notable namesake, he has an article by someone called J. G. Elzinga in the ODNB which cites G. P. V. Akrigg's Shakespeare and the earl of Southampton, not to mention W. D. Hamilton's edition of Charles Wriothesley's Chronicle, &c.. I have never come across J. G. Elzinga before. Would you like to make a start, and I'll see what I can add? Moonraker (talk) 07:24, 27 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
It would be useful to acquire a public domain close-up of his tomb effigy at Titchfield! Moonraker (talk) 07:43, 27 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I've considerably expanded the article. My format for adding references and citations is a bit different from yours, but I don't think that should be a problem. You can just add yours in whatever format you like. I also usually add an Infobox, which I've done with this article. I'm not sure where to look for a closeup of the effigy, but agree it would be a nice addition. NinaGreen (talk) 22:03, 27 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Good work! The 16th century pronunciation of the name Wriothesley is an interesting question. Somewhere I've seen it suggested that it might have been "Rosely"... "a rose by any other name". Moonraker (talk) 08:05, 28 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Should there be an article on the 2nd Earl's wife and 3rd Earl's mother, Mary Browne? For some reason there are links to her in several articles which redirect to her father, Anthony Browne, 1st Viscount Montagu. NinaGreen (talk) 17:28, 28 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I have quickly found several references to her in reliable sources, so I see no reason why not. Wives of peers have been a difficult area - see this recent afd, for instance. Another disputed question has been what surname to use in the article title. To me, Frances Grey, Duchess of Suffolk and Lady Mary Grey make more sense than Susan Bertie, Countess of Kent and Mary Cromwell, Countess Fauconberg. Moonraker (talk) 23:54, 28 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I agree. Another possibility would be to use the maiden name of the wife of a peer with her date of death as a descriptor, i.e. 'Mary Browne (died 1607)', particularly when (as in this case) she had three husbands. But I'm not sure whether that would accord with Wikipedia's general protocols for article titles for members of the nobility. In any event, if that can be sorted out and you decide to create the article, I'd be happy to add what I can to it. NinaGreen (talk) 16:48, 29 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Have made a start on Mary Wriothesley, Countess of Southampton. Moonraker (talk) 04:54, 30 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Great! I've added some further information, and will add a bit more later. NinaGreen (talk) 16:32, 30 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I've added a bit more to the article on the Countess, and have been working on the article on her father, Anthony Browne, [3]. The articles you've recently created provide a means of adding a very substantial number of links to existing articles so that Wikipedia readers can see the multitude of ways in which all these people were related, which in turn sheds light on their actions and motivations. Another article which might be useful would be one on the Countess' brother, Anthony Browne, who predeceased their father by only four months, and thus did not become the 2nd Viscount Montague. He's probably sufficiently noteworthy. He's mentioned several times by Stopes. NinaGreen (talk) 19:49, 1 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

'Did You Know' Nomination for Article on Henry Wriothesley, 2nd Earl of Southampton

All references to the nomination to 'Did You Know' for the article on Henry Wriothesley, 2nd Earl of Southampton [4], seem to have disappeared, both on the 'Did You Know' pages, and on the Talk page for the article, where two of the DYK editors had left brief comments asking for clarification as to which article was being nominated. I've left a message on the Talk page of one of the editors at [5]. I'd leave one for the other editor as well, but I can't recall his user name. It's very puzzling, as I didn't think comments on the Talk pages of Wikipedia articles, or the record of a nomination, could simply vanish. Any help resolving this would be much appreciated. NinaGreen (talk) 00:02, 2 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Apparently it had been moved to a prep page, and was published today (see below). Many thanks to Moonraker for nominating the article! NinaGreen (talk) 18:00, 2 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Talkback

Hello, NinaGreen. You have new messages at Calvin999's talk page.
Message added 00:43, 2 December 2012 (UTC). You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.[reply]

AARON• TALK 00:43, 2 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

DYK for Henry Wriothesley, 2nd Earl of Southampton

Graeme Bartlett (talk) 08:02, 2 December 2012 (UTC)[reply

]

Anthony Browne (1552–1592)

I have made a start on Anthony Browne (1552–1592), but for me he's struggling with notability. Although I have included the claim from the tudorplace site that he was Sheriff of Surrey and Kent in 1580, something about that seems to be wrong. Some more references would be a help. Moonraker (talk) 12:17, 8 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'll see what I can find. I added a source for your DYK for Mary Wriothesley. I've been revising the article on Elizabeth Howard, Duchess of Norfolk. There's a portrait of her here Portrait of Elizabeth, Duchess of Norfolk. Do you happen to know if there's a version in the public domain which I could add to the Infobox for the article? NinaGreen (talk) 15:56, 8 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I've added to the article. Feel free to change as you see fit, including the formatting of the references. NinaGreen (talk) 17:12, 8 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
That image of Elizabeth, Duchess of Norfolk, looks to me like a stipple engraving after a portrait. I have found other copies of it (such as this one) but can't find one with an attribution. Let me look around a bit. Moonraker (talk) 18:04, 8 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Neither the National Portrait Gallery nor the Royal Collection seems to have have any images of her, and I haven't been able to trace anything else referring to a portrait of her. You might like to check with the keeper of prints and drawings at Arundel Castle? In the absence of an attribution, that image could be almost any middle-aged lady of the period! Moonraker (talk) 18:43, 8 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for checking around. She could indeed be anyone. I might send an e-mail to Emerson to see where she found the image on her Tudor Women site which you've noted above. I've added an Infobox to the article on Anthony Browne. I'm rather partial to them because they make it easy for readers to click to related articles, but feel free to remove it if you wish. One problem I have with Infoboxes, though, is that I can't seem to increase the size of an image when it's in an Infobox, and the one you had on the page now unfortunately appears slightly smaller in the Infobox. Perhaps you know how to fix that, if you decide to keep the Infobox? I've also added a statement in the lead paragraph that Browne was Southampton's uncle. although I can't find any mention of direct contact between the two which I could put in the main text of the article. NinaGreen (talk) 19:24, 8 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I've added more material from Stopes, including mention of a journey Browne made in the 2nd Earl of Southampton's company. In connection with the latter, I notice that the article on Sir William More of Loseley, [6] a fairly significant figure during Queen Elizabeth's reign, is a mere stub which perhaps could be expanded as time permits. NinaGreen (talk) 20:57, 8 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I was also thinking of an article on William More, didn't know there was a stub. It will need to wait for another day, I am away now. Moonraker (talk) 23:53, 8 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Emerson confirmed your hunch that the portrait of Elizabeth Howard might be at Arundel Castle. She says it is. Are you thinking of submitting the Anthony Browne article to DYK? There might be a nice hook in that his young son was with him when he, his father and his brothers mustered before the Queen at Tilbury. However I don't know much about choosing hooks, so it's merely a suggestion. And perhaps you won't be able to submit it since you're away? NinaGreen (talk) 00:34, 9 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Not sure whether to invite scrutiny of it! I suspect the Sheriff thing is wrong, and without it he is arguably not notable. Perhaps it may be better to let sleeping dogs lie. Moonraker (talk) 16:37, 9 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Away was just away for some rest. I am wondering whether that image might be an engraving after this portrait of Mary Guildford by Hans Holbein the Younger? See what you think. Moonraker (talk) 16:33, 9 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Neat find! If one portrait isn't based on the other, at the very least one of the ladies seems to have borrowed the other's jewellery. :-) Thanks for the additions to the article on the 14th Earl of Oxford. Your link to the Garden Museum inspired me to use it for the hook for my submission of the Elizabeth Howard article to DYK. I'm hoping the extensive rewrite and sourcing of the latter will meet the DYK criteria. NinaGreen (talk) 22:55, 10 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

DYK nomination of John de Vere, 14th Earl of Oxford

Did You Know nominations page has been reviewed, and some issues with it may need to be clarified. Please review the comment(s) underneath your nomination's entry and respond there as soon as possible. Thank you for contributing to Did You Know! Acroterion (talk) 03:00, 10 December 2012 (UTC)[reply
]

It looks to me like it's about 200 characters short of a 5x expansion, but otherwise looks fine. Perhaps there's something more that could be added? Acroterion (talk) 03:01, 10 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

DYK Elizabeth Howard

I posted an answer on the Template to your question about counting characters in an article. — Maile (talk) 21:57, 11 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

DYK for Robert Willoughby, 6th Baron Willoughby de Eresby