Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Log/2008 July 15

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The result was delete. King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 04:27, 20 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You Me At Six

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No external sources. Singles apparently privately released. Fail notability test of WP:MUSIC. Multiple speedies under this article's belt, so let's put it down for good with an AFD. Kww (talk) 22:46, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • Tag deleted. It asserts importance (toured with Paramore, etc.), so it isn't A7 material. Unfortunately, notability issues can't properly be speedied.
    Kww (talk) 23:49, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
General Comment Many of you need to reread A7. It reads
  • An article about a real person, organization (band, club, company, etc.), or web content that does not indicate why its subject is important or significant. This is distinct from questions of verifiability and reliability of sources, and is a lower standard than notability; to avoid speedy deletion an article does not have to prove that its subject is notable, just give a reasonable indication of why it might be notable.
A reasonable indication of why it might be notable is a pretty weak standard, and asserting that the band has toured with notable bands crosses it. Being a lower standard than notability is quite intentional, and Fails WP:MUSIC is never a reason for an A7.
Kww (talk) 11:36, 16 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I suppose my problem is with what "touring with" means. Does it mean supported or opened for the other band or just that they played at some of the same places? In my opinion the first would be an assertion of notability but, the second isn't. If it's an ambiguous claim an attempt should be made by the includer of said information to provide a credible reference. The attempt itself should be what makes it a proper assertion, otherwise we can create any old rubbish we want as long as we put the right phrase in (which again in my opinion sort of defeats the purpose of the criteria... letter of the "law" vs. spirit of the "law" I suppose. Jasynnash2 (talk) 11:49, 16 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I would like it if A7 was looser. I used to do new pages patrol, and got a lot of nasty comments from admins for applying A7 the way you would like to, so now I'm pretty cautious. So far as I'm concerned, "has the word untitled in the title" should be a speedy criterion.
Kww (talk) 11:54, 16 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]


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The result was delete. King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 04:28, 20 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hindu Mayan Connection

Hindu Mayan Connection (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Original research, no discernible theme at this time. TrulyBlue (talk) 22:25, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
]

Yes, it's an interesting topic that has been written about, and articles on the relevant books with summaries of their theories would possibly make the grade. However, as it stands this article seems to me to be a way ofor someone to publish their own research. TrulyBlue (talk) 09:40, 16 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]


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The result was speedy deletion as copyvio. This article was cobbled together from plagiarised bits and pieces from start to finish. You could take almost any random phrase from the article and google it and they were all ripped out of the same three or four documents on the web. Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:33, 16 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Korean war crimes

Korean war crimes (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Seriously NPOV violating article based on the creator's political agenda and biased informations. Many of the contents in the article have nothing to do with the main topic: war crimes by Koreans. (ex: recent crimes) So in the last section, Koreans still fight in Korean war????? Besides, the creator blindly referred to his preferred version of the article and refused to discuss the main subject with people at talk. Lack of inline sources make other editors unable to confirm the contents. The title is also misleading that the war crimes occurred in Korean war. Caspian blue (talk) 22:08, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I also found that bogus inline sources on the President Park as below. I think there will be more such things. [1][2]

This is example of how the creator illustrates the topic. Colonial intellectuals who witnessed the stunning successes of the Japanese military in the Asian mainland sought a role for themselves within the rapidly emerging New Order in East Asia (Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere), Japan hoped to integrate Korea into Japan, in terms of infrastructure and bureaucracy.

No apology section is also false. Kim Dae-jung officially apologized, but the creator distorts the info. I don't see what the recent "war crime" is. The section is also false and unrelated info. Political propaganda does not meet to our policy. "Wikpedia is Encyclopedia".

Did you even read the article in question? The current article hold only several in-line sources which turns out bogus sources (dead link/ no mention of the illustrated info) and a lot of unrelated information. --Caspian blue (talk) 22:21, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - POV violations is not a criteria for deletion. This article just needs rewording and more sourcing, the user should have tried to
    X 22:23, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
    ]
  • Keep - "The article is POV" is not a reason to delete. Please be specific in your accusations of bogus sources (all links to lead to a website and do support the article). Nature of POV is still being discussed (not everybody is on wikipedia 24/7 and can respond to your comments immediately). Article is also being referenced as we speak.

It is also a fairly common fact that Park Chung-hee did serve in the Japanese army. Maybe you are confused with the controversy over whether he specifically served in the Gando Special Force unit? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.120.161.137 (talk) 22:26, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That's why verifiablity is a burden of editors. You inserted at least two bogus inline-citations. That is shameful conduct of your own part. --Caspian blue (talk)
I added your 'bogus inline sources. One is non-exist link, the other does not say about President Park and other military people. So I highly doubt that the article is even written by sticking to sources. Besides, Logitech95, just log in. Anonymous IP user is not generally counted as a !voters.--Caspian blue (talk) 22:36, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete because there is nothing to write about. half of these are attempts by south korean government to purge communists (as they were supposed to), and the other half were done during korean war & vietnam war because that's how they are supposed to be fought. i don't see any "war crimes" section in korean war article or vietnam war article. simply, many of these "atrocities" are not recognized by the international community as war crimes. the article even shows image of "american gi shot in the back" by a communist during korean war as a war crime - so you can see how ridiculous the article is. so, my main reason to delete this article is that the topic is insignificant. there is virtually no "war crime" committed by korean nationals in the last 3,000 years & if there was just one, it's not enough to make an article. also, many of these "atrocities" are already written in korea-related articles anyways. (i.e. gwangju massacre) (Ferromagneticmonopole (talk) 01:10, 16 July 2008 (UTC))[reply]
  • Keep, but... ....damn, what a mess! Yes, it's a good topic for an encyclopedia, but I can see a lot of problems with this article. There's this childish edit war going on, with one person adding something in, and then someone else taking it out -- we've all seen that before, where someone jealously guards an article like it was their teddy bear. Then there are the facts that are added in with no sourcing at all-- a stat on how many Koreans were in the Japanese army, the U.S. controlling the Kwangju massacre, Korean prison guards notoriously brutal, 148 war criminals, a brainwashing czar, a massacre at Suwon, the No Gun Ri massacre... and that's just this week. What I like least, however, is the "yellow peril" tone of the article, which, I think, implies that Korean people are more eager to kill one another than "normal". I think that any of the folks who argue that this article's problems can be cleaned up will find it to be the Augean stables. What's the solution? First, stop the editing war. Nobody's winning. Whatever one side has deleted still exists in the history. Then, put a freeze on changes to this article, and let the two rival groups make user space versions of what they think is the ideal article about Korean war crimes. Eventually, perhaps, then I think something can be created from create something from the two articles that truly is non-POV and well-sourced. Good luck. Mandsford (talk) 01:44, 16 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, you tell us we should stop "childish" edit warring. So we stop. Then what? See history - this is sock/meat puppets vs. 5 to 6 Wikipedians. The consensus already is that most of the article is fabrication or misrepresentation. The consensus is that those be removed. And I guarantee that when all of the fabrication & misrepresentation are removed, there will be not much left for the article. Why? because there is no such issue or topic called "Korean war crimes". This is something completely new and ridiculous. Then, the topic is insignificant; therefore, the article would eventually have to be deleted. I recommend that you follow the discussion page. (Ferromagneticmonopole (talk) 04:09, 16 July 2008 (UTC))[reply]
For example, the article lists massacres committed during Korean War - but American & UN troops committed them as well. How are they specifically "Korean"? Also, the deal with the Korean prison guards is completely ludicrous. Fine, they committed them, but how can anyone link actions made by individuals working for a foreign government to nationality or government of their origin? How are human rights violations committed by dictator governments war crimes when they were not during a war? (Ferromagneticmonopole (talk) 04:17, 16 July 2008 (UTC))[reply]
  • Rename and refocus. The current article is a hodge-podge of disparate and unrelated events, taken out of context. The subject matter of war crimes during the Korean War, Korean participation in the Kwantung Army, prison camps in North Korea, etc., are all encyclopedic and should be fairly described. However, the reason they have been assembled into a single article here is clearly to advance the thesis that Koreans are especially predisposed to brutality or war crimes. This is a commonly repeated theme of Korean-bashing in some Japanese nationalist circles, and it's really the only reason to have an article devoted to war crimes committed by members of a particular ethnic group. On the other hand, War crimes in the Korean War is a perfectly good topic for an article. Other parts of the current article, where well-sourced and balanced, could be put to good use by merging elsewhere and perhaps creating a few new articles. --Amble (talk) 03:20, 16 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you. Also, attempts to purge communists are human rights violations, not war crimes. (Ferromagneticmonopole (talk) 04:09, 16 July 2008 (UTC))[reply]
  • Keep. I am the original author of the topic. I consider my vote superfluous but I would like to clarify one issue that various editors have attempted to remove content.
The intent behind the topic is not to propose a topic of 'Korean War' crimes.
It is to document, in their full scope, the nature and context for, and popular and academic reactions to, 'Korean war crimes'.
I fully expect, in time, for various new sections to develop sufficiently for their own topics, e.g. the Korean crimes in Vietnam and as a new topic. I accept that it will take sometime to settle down within the Wikipedia. However, the topic is clearly documented by the academic sources including those given precisely as per the topic title.
To exclude Korea and the various Korean leaderships from the roster of atrocities committed against humanity and regional patterns would be naive. Please note that I have stated on the discussion page my POV on the talk page which if I am to be accused of one is a feminist critique of all violent masculinist cultures and not as a critic of a mythical "Korea". Where ever possible I have depended on Korean and American authors with the omission of any Japanese ones.


All though I fear this these points are too subtle for some contributors, I hope this makes matters clearer for others and encourages cooperation and have gone into greater depth about this POV on the talk page. --Ex-oneatf (talk) 04:52, 16 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
AFD is not decided by !vote count. Closing admins reviews each argument and finally makes a decision. I don't understand what you try to say by this:"I have stated on the discussion page my POV on the talk page which if I am to be accused of one is a feminist critique of all violent masculinist cultures and not as a critic of a mythical "Korea". Where ever possible I have depended on Korean and American authors with the omission of any Japanese ones."--Caspian blue (talk)


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The result was keep. King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 04:29, 20 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Swimming with dolphins

Swimming with dolphins (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Not really an encyclopedic topic, and written as a personal essay. It's been copied over to the relevant wiki-sister project, and isn't really appropriate content to stay here Ironholds 22:09, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]


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The result was delete. --PeaceNT (talk) 05:17, 17 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Tomislav Pavlov

Tomislav Pavlov (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Contested PROD, non-notable youth footballer born in 1991, with no first team appearances ever as of today, easily fails

WP:ATHLETE. Angelo (talk) 22:07, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
]


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The result was speedy keep; the nomination is disruptive and the book undisputedly notable-even free newspapers in the UK are reviewing it. Sceptre (talk) 10:42, 16 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Nixonland: The Rise of a President and the Fracturing of America

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I decided this book fails Homotlfqa83 (talk) 22:04, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Query why do you think that this AFD is possibly disruptive? Bigdaddy1981 (talk) 00:26, 16 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Posts like this make me question the nominator's motivations. JuJube (talk) 01:17, 16 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was Closed as moot. Title is now a redirect, and nobody seems to be arguing here for the deletion of the page to which it has been redirected.

Redirects for discussion are discussed somewhere else. - Smerdis of Tlön (talk) 14:21, 16 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
]

Theory of Delayed Proclivity

Theory of Delayed Proclivity (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD
)

Unverifiable, unreferenced potential neologism. Possibly WP:MADEUP. CultureDrone (talk) 22:03, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]


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The result was keep. Shereth 21:45, 23 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Tami Erin

Tami Erin (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Actress, but doesn't appear to meet the requirements for

T) 21:59, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
]

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The result was delete all. King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 04:48, 20 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Andrew Roberts (businessman)

Andrew Roberts (businessman) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)
Roberts Investments Group (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Stefan Roberts (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

This is a more elaborate hoax than most - credit to HagenUK for spotting it and doing most of the research to demolish it. A quite pretty but markedly uninformative website has been set up for "Roberts Investments Group", which doesn't give an address or even a telephone number. There are also even less informative web-sites for "Chateau Le Mont", the "Howard Art Gallery" of New York, and something called "Call for Change". None of these gives a telephone number - all invite contact by email only.

When we try to make any independent checks, we get nowhere. Andrew Roberts is claimed to be #184 on the Sunday Times rich list, but a search for "Roberts" doesn't find him. The links provided to Time and Forbes don't take you to any mention of him. A search of the London telephone directory does not find the Group. A Google search for "Roberts Investments Group" finds a couple of others - a real estate broker in Norcross, GA and another in Cedar Hill, TX whose CEO is Tim Roberts - plus some blog-type mentions, but no

reliable
source.

The sole author

hoax. For what it's worth, an article called "Stefan Roberts" was deleted in 2005 as "self-admitted hoax". Delete all. JohnCD (talk) 21:54, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
]

  • And especially since it appears that two of the articles have been deleted four times before, see:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Andrew Martin Roberts, 1st Earl Roberts
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Stefan Roberts
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Stefan Roberts (second nomination)
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Stefan David Andrew Roberts, Viscount St Pierre
UnitedStatesian (talk) 02:23, 16 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete all 3 and salt. Complying with the policy of identifying oneself as involved, I am the contributor who spotted the hoax and did the research. Many thanks to JohnCD (talk) to bring this to AFD. The Wikipedia AFD is a bit daunting ;-) HagenUK (talk) 05:34, 16 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete I agree that some information in these articles is unverifiable. I see how it is therefore wrong to keep these articles in place. I would, therefore, move for deletion as a point of making sure everything on Wikipedia is as correct as possible, to comply with
    WP:V. It is all correct (except for the Sunday Times stuff, which I am in the process of investigating as I type) but I can't prove it, so I move for deletion. Fuzzybuddy (talk) 14:54, 16 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
    ]
  • Two comments: If you want a laugh, take a look at this page from the Roberts Investments Group web-site, about a day in the life of a typical employee. The main features seem to be that RIG pays for his Starbucks, and that by shaving 15 minutes off his lunch hour he gets to go home at 5:15. If only I had known life in a hedge fund was so relaxed...
Looking at the previous AfDs listed above, it occurs to me that it's a sign of the times that the Roberts family fantasies have moved on from being old-style Debrett aristocracy to being new-style hedge-fund-billionaire aristocracy. JohnCD (talk) 15:03, 16 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Another comment - if anyone doubts that the Roberts family would go to the trouble of setting up fake web-sites to back their claims, it's apparent from this conversation that last year they prepared a fake version of the London Gazette site to back up the claim that Andrew had been created Earl Roberts and Stefan was Viscount St Pierre. Unfortunately the link no longer works - they evidently didn't keep up the payments to the web host. user:mduparte said she was "private secretary to the Earl Roberts", but hasn't been heard from since. I wonder what they will think of next - I can hardly wait. JohnCD (talk) 10:11, 17 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • The phrase “I don’t know what their problem is, but is must be hard to pronounce” comes to mind. I think I will patrol Roberts-related entries a lot in future. Maybe he/they do not get the difference between creating a one-off-joke (which can be funny) and being a ongoing nuisance =8-[[ HagenUK (talk) 11:32, 17 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]


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The result was delete. --PeaceNT (talk) 05:22, 17 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

International Association of Whistleblowers

International Association of Whistleblowers (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Article does not establish the notability of the organization, instead giving lengthy descriptions of individual whistleblowers and the concept of whistleblowing. The association is not mentioned in the reliable news accounts of

Whistleblower week, only in a publication called "Op-Ed News" and the rightist "WorldNetDaily". The author of the Op-Ed News articles is James Murtagh, who is also the creator of this article. Keepcalmandcarryon (talk) 21:47, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
]


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The result was delete. --PeaceNT (talk) 05:25, 17 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Acropolis (band)

Acropolis (band) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

This is a group which has never been signed to a record label, nor actually has done anything of note. LuciferMorgan (talk) 21:19, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]


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The result was Nomination withdrawn (non-admin closure).

talk) 23:18, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
]

Alchemy Systems

Alchemy Systems (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

A speedy delete nomination on this COI-troubled article was knocked aside. Nonetheless, it fails the

talk) 21:13, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
]

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The result was delete. --PeaceNT (talk) 05:25, 17 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Nau Gaja Road

Nau Gaja Road (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Non-notable local road. Has been unsourced for over two years. Hut 8.5 20:51, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
]


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The result was delete. King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 04:53, 20 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Frenchcore

AfDs for this article:
Frenchcore (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Minor musical sub genre with no assertion of notability or sourcing, all OR. neon white talk 20:49, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If you have no Knowledge about hardcore dance why bother editing pages on it?????? --Macbarry (talk) 13:01, 16 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Is this a "keep" vote? If so, add keep in bold to you comment. Jiiimbooh (talk) 21:33, 16 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]


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The result was keep, meaning not delete. Merging is at editors' discretion. --PeaceNT (talk) 05:26, 17 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Calvin_College_and_Theological_Seminary

AfDs for this article:
Calvin_College_and_Theological_Seminary (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD
)

Obsolete. No Content. Already separate pages for Calvin College and Calvin Theological Seminary. Bad geocode location too.


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The result was Delete per

talk) 03:48, 17 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
]

Who sunk the Lusitania?

Who sunk the Lusitania? (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Wikipedia is not a place to put your essays. I would suggest merging this in with the Lusitania article, but that information has already been covered in that article. ----Адам12901 T/C 20:33, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was Nom withdrawn, merged and re-directed per growing consensus. Merge has been done, leave formatting issues to those more familiar with election articles. TCari My travels 14:06, 16 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sharron Storer

AfDs for this article:
Sharron Storer (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD
)

There are news stories covering Storer's confrontation of

WP:NOTNEWS. TCari My travels 20:15, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
]

Delete (with a caveat) I agree with this deletion proposal. At the time the article was created, BLP1E didn't exist (in fact, I'm not even sure BLP did!). Now that consensus has been established that individual "people in the news" for one-off events don't deserve articles of their own, let's not keep this article. The only question is whether the content of this article belongs as a small item in another article -

United Kingdom general election, 2001 would seem like an obvious place. SP-KP (talk) 20:26, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
]

  • The 2001 election article is structured a bit unconventionally at the moment - it has a very long lead, followed by sections which just contain data tables or links. A restructuring of the article would help us to find a more natural place for the material here to sit. Potential section headings are: Lead-up to the campaign, The campaign itself, Results, Impact of the election. SP-KP (talk) 21:19, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • That makes sense and I would agree with it. I'd leave that to someone more knowledgeable on the election to do but would agree with a merge and redirect. If not for the 'keep' below, I'd close this and do it myself but am now willing to leave it open. TCari My travels 13:03, 16 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]


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The result was keep. John254 00:46, 20 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Budaghers, New Mexico

Budaghers, New Mexico (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Fails notability guidelines on places; it's an abandoned trading post off an american highway exit. Ironholds 20:15, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • But even as a previous trading post it is the in-depth subject of reliable secondary sources, which is the core criteria of
    WP:NOTABILITY. There's no requirement that any geographical location must be or have been a "town.". A topic can be notable for other reasons. --Oakshade (talk) 18:23, 16 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
    ]
      • Response Yes, they are. And they are quite nice. They are from the
        Albuquerque Tribune--the Tribune had a circulation of a mere 10,000 when it ceased publication earlier this year. The Journal is quite larger, with a circulation of 105,000 weekly, 145,000 Sunday and is the largest paper in New Mexico. Still, that's significantly less than the Omaha World-Herald at 184,000/222,000 or even the Tulsa World at 120,000/171,000--papers that I would not say necessarily constitute "widely read". Sure, circulation isn't the only measure of a paper's influence, but I'd argue that these articles--while good and useful--do not constitute notability at the level we normally pursue on Wikipedia--they are more of a state or even local issue, as written. Sure, there are exceptions and online newspapers certainly will not be the only source worth considering. What's the reason that this place is notable? Why would someone in China care? Is it historically significant? Why would someone care in 100 years? These are the kinds of questions we like to ask ourselves (or at least I like to ask myself) about notability concerns.--Paul McDonald (talk) 19:51, 16 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
        ]
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The result was No consensus, defaulting to keep. The references given are just sufficient in my opinion to show notability for an indie band. Kevin (talk) 03:28, 24 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Earwig the band

talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD
)

This band doesn't have any independent references to them. They do have several albums out which would pass

WP:MUSIC. Also, the only references noted are their myspace page and the label that produced their album, and I'm not even going to get started on that one. ----Адам12901 T/C 20:11, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
]

Delete: They fail
WP:NM. Leonard(Bloom) 20:51, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
]

Please hold off on deleting the page. I will research what exactly is needed in your calls for Multiple Published Works and other references above and see if I can provide this pages author with what is needed. Thank you. Lizardmcgee (talk) 14:35, 17 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

With regards to WP:MUSIC#C1 Earwig is notable, appears, is mentioned in several reliable newspaper articles, books, magazine articles, and has multiple works published from sources other than it's self. -Lizard McGee/LFM Records/Earwig appear in a photo and are mentioned in Entertainment Weekly,– March 17th, 1995 Issue 266 -Earwig is featured with Interview and Photo in The Big Takeover Issue No. 61, 2007 -Earwig CD (works) distributed by Major Retail store Meijer -Multiple Earwig song placements including ABC, Disney/Touchstone Films, FOX TV, MTV & Warner Brothers productions -Earwig songs appear on multiple compilations from, Anyway Records (Guided By Voices, Gaunt, New Bomb Turks and others), 'The Latest' produced and published by Leo Burnett http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leo_Burnett_Worldwide , Columbus Alive http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbus_Alive (Bands To Watch)

2. Has had a charted hit on any national music chart. Earwig’s song ‘Used Kids’ is listed at #15 on the top 101 most requested songs of 2007 - http://www.cd101.com/sections/onair/2001tops/requests.asp On radio station WWCD101 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WWCD Lizardmcgee (talk) 14:35, 17 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The requirement for
WP:MUSIC#C2 is that it has to be a national music chart. We're talking about a chart like Billboard here, not CD101, which is a small independent radio station in Columbus, Ohio...they're not a national radio station. In regards to being distributed by Meijer, they're found on their "outside the mainstream" page which according to their website just lists local bands in their market area that have yet to be signed. ----Адам12901 T/C 14:42, 17 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
]
The Meijer program does much more than simply list local bands that have yet to be signed. With the Meijer “Outside The Mainstream” program, the chain selects exceptional CDs from regional artists (that must be unsigned) to be distributed and sold in Meijer stores chainwide. The selected artists are also featured in the grocer’s ad circulars which are sent to 7 million households in Ohio, Michigan, Illinois, Indiana and Kentucky. Also, the popular music blog ‘The Daily Chorus’ www.thedailychorus.com lists Earwig as one of the Top Unsigned Bands in America (#23). The Daily Chorus is based in AZ. and has been referenced as a respected industry tip-sheet online and in Billboard Magazine. Lizardmcgee (talk) 17:43, 17 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]


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The result was speedily deleted by Orangemike. Fabrictramp | talk to me 00:00, 17 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sita the awesome pawsome

Sita the awesome pawsome (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Promotional wording ("our only female bengal tiger...":

receiver, archives) 19:52, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
]


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The result was CSDed under criteria G12 - copyvio by User:Orangemike (Non-Admin closure). -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 21:07, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Omnios

Omnios (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

The creator's name is User:Omnios (

receiver, archives) 19:35, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
]


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The result was Speedy delete a1, no meaningful content,

WP:CRYSTAL. NawlinWiki (talk) 00:18, 16 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
]

Bald Eagles Fly High

Bald Eagles Fly High (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

receiver, archives) 19:32, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
]

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The result was delete. Fabrictramp | talk to me 13:39, 23 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Another Day Another Dolla

Another Day Another Dolla (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Strongly feel that this mixtape is not notable for inclusion, outside of a single track from it that became a moderate radio hit. Winger84 (talk) 19:25, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]


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The result was Delete --JForget 23:24, 17 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Tweetup

Tweetup (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

More neologism shenanigans. This one had already been speedy deleted, too.

talk) 19:16, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
]

  • Save it! This is a neologism but it certainly is not a shenanigan. This is a valid topic that interests many people, and it is becoming more and more popular by people starting up groups around the world called "Tweetups" and coming together to do just what people are doing here on Wikipedia... COLLABORATE. I'm a attending a Tweetup tomorrow and the purpose of this Tweetup is to help people build local businesses through Twitter and Social technology.

So I beg to differ... this is certainly a valid topic and should not be deleted. Donaldleegraham (talk) 20:25, 15 July 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Donaldleegraham (talk • contribs) 19:55, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • Save it! Absolutely a valid term and growing in usage all the time. Google reports 69,600 instances as of today. The main distinguishing factor of a Tweetup is that it's promoted on and made up of folks using Twitter. —Preceding
    few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply
    ]


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The result was delete. --PeaceNT (talk) 05:29, 17 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Closed (film)

Closed (film) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

No matches on IMDB for either the film title (and year) or anything listed under Tippi Hedren's page. Nothing found via Google. Possible hoax? Lugnuts (talk) 18:39, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]


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The result was delete both. King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 04:54, 20 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

NǽnøĉÿbbŒrğ VbëřřĦōlökäävsŦ

NǽnøĉÿbbŒrğ VbëřřĦōlökäävsŦ (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)
The Ultimate Fate Of The Universe‎ (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views
) - album by the above band.

I do not believe that this band passes the

WP:MUSIC threshold. The Evil Spartan (talk) 18:34, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
]


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The result was delete as the subject sufficiently covered by other articles. There is no need to fork the content. Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 17:37, 23 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Creation (theology)

Creation (theology) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

This article is a summary of various creation myths (that already exist at

Creation according to Genesis, however the author retired not long after. The article has since been tagged for multiple issues for nearly a year now, and many of the editors on Talk:Creation (theology)
have disputed the pages existence.

This article is a bit of a hopeless cause since there just isn't some overarching "theology of creation". Attached to each particular creation myth is the theology, the creation myth isn't attached to theology, and so organisation should be the other way around. This article should be deleted, and the theology related to each particular creation myth should be maintained at the respective creation myth's own page, for example, what is already happening at

WP:SUMMARY. Creationism, theology and creation myths as a general concept, should still be maintained at those respective articles of course. Since this article contains nothing not already covered in the respective creation myth articles, there isn't anything to merge either. I've also checked What Links Here and in every case I checked, linking to either creation myth in general, or the particular creation myth (if there was already some context given) can easily be done, or in a few cases, to creationism
.

In summary, I guess my point is we have

talk) 18:33, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
]

I guess you mean the article could link creation and theology? Well theology includes the study of creation from a particular religions perspective, sure, but that study should be included in the particular creation myths article (since the study is dependant on a particular religion), applying WP:SUMMARY and forking off to subpages as necessary. It doesn't make sense to have this article any more than it makes sense to have
talk) 02:24, 20 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
]
If you compare the sections regarding Hinduism in the 2 articles, they aren't written in a fundamentally different way. What is different however is the creation theology article gives undue weight to the Abrahamic tradition, compared to other traditions. PhilKnight (talk) 17:14, 23 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was delete. Nousernamesleft (talk) 21:03, 20 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

David Zhang

David Zhang (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Person won the Starcraft micro-tournament, but I still don't think that it really makes him all that notable. Only one website lists him briefly, so there isn't much verifiable content, either. ----Адам12901 T/C 18:12, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

He won a micro-tournament...hockey is a national sport in Canada, but a person who wins a micro-tournament in Regina isn't a national sports champion there. ----Адам12901 T/C 19:15, 16 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
A micro tournament isn't like a lower league, it's just another type of play. This is where you only start out with a few units (e.g. less than 5), and defeat the other player. It's definitely not as notable, but I'm Canadian and don't know much about the US starcraft scene. --Patar knight - chat/contributions 22:15, 16 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep, providing that the stipulated media coverage can be found - "The two major game channels in South Korea, Ongamenet and MBCGame, each run a Starleague, viewed by millions of fans." With that many viewers I would hazard to guess that there is plenty of Korean media coverage, kind of like American Idol in the US (unless I'm overestimating its popularity within Korea). However, this coverage may not extend into English-speaking regions. It's not an in-universe matter; rather, it's a matter of there being or not being coverage outside of Korea, and therefore a matter of relevance with regard to English-language Wikipedia's readers.
    talk) 00:20, 16 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
    ]
This isn't a bias issue—let's not confuse the matter. Notability is our concern here. Showing notability with a foreign-language source is completely acceptable, if that is what is needed. I'm not familiar with this micro-tournament. Can someone explain it? Pagrashtak 20:43, 16 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
A micro-tournament is when each player gets a small amount of units (e.g. less than 5), and eliminates the other team. So its less macro-management, and more micro-management (hence the name) and tatical skill. --Patar knight - chat/contributions 22:15, 16 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete, possible speedy delete as hoax A quick translation of the header of the box provided in the source gives us "The interspace strives for hegemony (Starcraft) V1.08 | The legal copy copy, contains all background music, the film title tail leader." While poorly translated, it looks like a site for downloading Starcraft, and probably doesn't mention this David Zhang person at all. --Patar knight - chat/contributions 22:18, 16 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. Fails
    WP:V. --Jack-A-Roe (talk) 05:12, 20 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
    ]


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The result was keep. --PeaceNT (talk) 05:30, 17 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Pangram

Trivia galore. This is not an article fit for an encyclopedia by any reasonable stretch of the imagination. coccyx bloccyx(toccyx) 18:08, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]


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The result was keep. King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 04:57, 20 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Windows 4.x

Windows 4.x (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD
)

"Windows 4.x" is a neologism, and we already have articles that cover lists of Windows versions. No need to make more of them. Warren -talk- 18:04, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • redirect. It is not neologism, but not very encyclopedic by itself. SYSS Mouse (talk) 18:11, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • The first release of Microsoft Windows with a version number of 4 was released thirteen years ago, but "windows 4.x" produces very few hits that are about Windows itself. Perhaps neologism isn't the perfect word for it, but we shouldn't be promoting the idea that it is an actual term in common use. Warren -talk- 18:18, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep: Some software vendors use the term Windows 4.x instead of listing out Windows 95/95/ME/NT for instance. With 15,000 hits on google, it's a name/search term common enough to warrant keeping this as a disambiguation page.
    talk) 19:20, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
    ]
  • Keep it's a dab page, and the dab page is accurate. With so many entries, redirecting it to a particular article would make a very very large hatnote for no good reason. 70.51.8.56 (talk) 05:42, 16 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Redirect to Windows 9x. While I think "Windows 4.x" is a more elegant way of referring to the "Windows 9x/Me", series, this article is a bit lacking in content, and is inaccurate - Me does have a later version number than 98 in the MS version number convention, and NT 4.0 is fundamentaly a quite different beast from Windows 4.x and should not be grouped with it. Letdorf (talk) 09:33, 16 July 2008 (UTC).[reply]
  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of Software-related deletion discussions. -- Fabrictramp | talk to me 00:03, 17 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. Redirecting to windows 9x doesn't seem right, because not all 4.x versions were marketed as "9x". BTW, it's not a neologism, but the proper version number that can be seen, for example, by typing the "ver" command. --Itub (talk) 11:16, 18 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]


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The result was deleted by someone. I'm house-keeping. :) --PeaceNT (talk) 05:30, 17 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Diy tatto

Diy tatto (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Wikipedia is not a "how-to." Rob Banzai (talk) 18:00, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]


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The result was redirect to Ethan Haas Was Right. Shereth 21:47, 23 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Mind Storm Labs

Mind Storm Labs (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Unnotable company that fails

WP:COMPANY. -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 17:57, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
]

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The result was delete. --Leivick (talk) 01:48, 23 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Happy Tree Friends Arcade Games

Happy Tree Friends Arcade Games (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

This is a list of non-notable Flash games that will probably never have the potential to become more significant than they are now. If Happy Tree Friends episodes and characters do not warrant Wikipedia articles, there surely should not be an entire article about minigames. --UberScienceNerd Talk Contributions 17:27, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

*Delete — Yes, I have seen that the main Happy Tree Friends has been deleted, so it does make sense that this be, as well.

MuZemike (talk) 19:01, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
]

  • Close AfD and wait. The AfD nomination is flawed, in that just because
    something else has been deleted doesn't mean we should either delete or keep anything else. The sole reason that this AfD should be considered is because of lack of notable sources that are verifable. The article is one day old. Nobody has had a chance to check sources. I think this AfD is yet another example of wasting time, if the article requires a speedy delete nominate it for that. If it does not pass the Speedy delete, then wait a few months before nominating for deletion. If you don't like the article, challenge yourself to do a google search for some references. Having said all that, I'm personally not sure this article will meet the standards for notability, and there is no claim in the article of notability, and would probably vote delete in spit of the obvious flaws with how this AfD came to be. Icemotoboy (talk) 17:18, 16 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
    ]
Changed to Delete. But I'm still grumpy! (lol) Icemotoboy (talk) 01:07, 17 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, yes. It reminds me of the infamous Pokémon test. --UberScienceNerd Talk Contributions 19:35, 17 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was speedy delete under

G4. --lifebaka (Talk - Contribs) 18:24, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
]

Beyoncé Knowles third album

Beyoncé Knowles third album (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

No release date, no title, a lot of speculation.

WP:CRYSTAL. Kww (talk) 16:56, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
]

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The result was no consensus to delete. All the single purpose accounts canvassed to keep the article haven't done much good, but the cleaning up, and further referencing has. Unforunately nobody so far has yet commented on the reliability and the extent of coverage of the French sources. Still a fair number of people believe that the sources that are currently here show enough notability to keep the article. There is no clear consensus to keep, but nor is there to delete the article. Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 18:26, 23 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Robotshop

Robotshop (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

No evidence of

conflict of interest issue as well given single-purpose nature of account. OhNoitsJamie Talk 16:37, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
]

Firstly, the Wikipedia definition of Notability:"

Notable means "worthy of being noted" or "attracting notice." It is not synonymous with "fame" or "importance." Please consider notable and demonstrable effects on culture, society, entertainment, athletics, economies, history, literature, science, or education. Large organizations are likely to have more readily available verifiable information from reliable sources that provide evidence of notability; however, smaller organizations can be notable, just as individuals can be notable, and arbitrary standards should not be used to create a bias favoring larger organizations.

· RobotShop Distribution inc. is registered since 2003 under the Canada Business Federation Act : Corporation #6142567 BN #875730509RC0001
· RobotShop has between 10-100 employees.
· RobotShop is a partner of iRobot for distributing the Roomba in Canada since 2003 and is a leader in the industry. See the link on the Official iRobot Web Site to RobotShop under Americas, Canada. RobotShop is also the first company worldwide to repair the popular Roomba from iRobot.
· RobotShop also partners with more than 150 manufacturers (all major leaders in the robotics industry, some of which have a page on WikiPedia).
· RobotShop is member of the Better Business Bureau
· RobotShop has appeared multiple times on TV, in magazines, newspapers, blogs and forums. Here some examples:
- Banc d'essai du Peuple (French interview about the Lawnbott Robot Mower)
- Servo Magazine (RobotShop advertises in Servo Magazine since many years and are often reffered to because of their notable products)
- Toronto Star Article.
- Interview with the president on the blog of Abry.biz
· Google Notoriety:
- 18700 indexed pages, page rank of 5
- More than 60 000 results for the term "RobotShop" and the first spot is for RobotShop Web site.
- More than 492 000 results for the term "Robot Shop" and the first spot is for RobotShop Web Site.
· Recent Press Releases:
- RobotShop is Upgrading (from RobotShop)
- RobotShop is Duplicating (from RobotShop)
- CoroWare Announces Distributorship Agreement with RobotShop (from Coroware on the Robotic Trends Web site) --

few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply
]

Comment You haven't really addressed any of the notability criteria in
WP:CORP. Press releases, advertising, etc. do not cut it. OhNoitsJamie Talk 19:19, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
]
Comment What about the examples provided such as the Television coverage and the Newspaper Article which seem to be part of "Primary Criterion"? This with a quick search about RobotShop. I am quite certain that many more sources can be found. What about the collective robotics community that gravitates around RobotShop? I do however agree that the press releases and advertising are not addressable as notariety criteria. --Jbrunet (talk) 20:07, 15 July 2008 (UTC)— Jbrunet (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]
Comment Blogs are rarely considered to be a reliable source (unless written by a notable pundit, etc.) The Toronto Star source contains only a trivial mention. OhNoitsJamie Talk 20:18, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete No evidence of WP:CORP notability whatsoever.
    few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply
    ]
  • Comment I am new to Wikipedia and am very interested in the WikiProject: Robotics. I am also thankful that there are volunteers who check articles and verify information. Having read through the section “Adding information to WikiProject_Robotics”, I decided to add the article “RobotShop” with the objective “To improve Wikipedia articles related to robotics development, technology, research, and other related areas” which “covers […] robots used by consumers, industries and governments”.
The RobotShop page was created following the Wikiproject Robotics Article Guidelines as a company providing both robotic parts and services (domestic robotic repair, troubleshooting and general robotics education). However, I noted that “If you do write an article on an area in which you are personally involved, be sure to write in a neutral tone and cite reliable, third-party published sources, and beware of unintentional bias. Neutral point of view is one of Wikipedia's five pillars.
Perhaps instead of deleting the page, allow others to add notability and add the heading below. It is far easier to encourage users to add content to a page rather than create a new page entirely.
Cbenson1 (talk) 20:27, 15 July 2008 (UTC)— Cbenson1 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]
Comment Are you (and JBrunet, the other
single purpose account) affiliated with the company in question? Honesty is the best policy here. OhNoitsJamie Talk 20:44, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
]
  • Comment
As indicated previously,
If you do write an article on an area in which you are personally involved, be sure to write in a neutral tone and cite reliable, third-party published sources, and beware of unintentional bias.
In this case, both JBrunet and myself are affiliated with RobotShop. Although this is discouraged, it is not grounds for deletion. From what I can see however, JBrunet did not edit the article. The ideal users to contribute / edit information in the Wikipedia knowledge base are those with direct information. This being said, a special point was made to prevent the article from being written as an advetisement or spam. Only the bare minimum of information was included in order to encourage others to participate.
My account was created in order to edit robotic information and the fact that the first contributions were related to RobotShop should not be the issue: Unfortunately the assumption of "single purpose account" is false: being knowledgeable in robotics (as well as being in charge of the RobotShop Learning Center) I had planned to contribute / edit articles related to robotics. Please take note of the Wikipeia Handling and Advicewhich states
If you are in a discussion with someone who edits as a single purpose account: Communal standards such as don't bite the newcomers apply to all users. Be courteous. Focus on the subject matter, not the person. If they are given fair treatment, they may also become more involved over time.
The phrasing "Are you (and JBrunet, the other single purpose account) affiliated with the company in question? Honesty is the best policy here." seems to indicate a trap and is not appreciated. One of RobotShop's core values is "Honesty is our best quality" and no attempt was made to cover or change identities.

Question: the following heading was useful in describing an alternative to deleting the page, why remove it? Is it general policy to remove suggested headings? {{
Refimprove}} — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cbenson1 (talk • contribs) 21:35, July 15, 2008 (UTC)— Cbenson1 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits
outside this topic.


  • KEEP IT - I have been encouraged by the RobotShop community to come here and share my thought about RobotShop notability. What I can say, I own the popular Roomba from iRobot since the beginning. When I got problems with my robot after only one year and a half, iRobot told me to buy a new one! Warranty was over and iRobot does not offer any repair services. I found RobotShop over the Web, it was the only place to repair the Roomba. My robot has been fixed very fast and it is still working today. What is a "notable" company? Is it those big companies quoted everywhere that take your money and offer bad services? Or is it this company who offer real services to people, in a new emerging market, where even the manufacturers let you alone with your problems?
  • Keep It RobotShop is a great company. Their website is easy to navigate and when i order things from them they are always timely with the delivery. You should allow them to keep their wiki page because people interested in buying or building robots might wiki first. Then they can find RobotShop's site that way, and I believe RobotShop would be of use to them because they have robot kits for all levels of builders.--129.174.88.5 (talk) 01:02, 16 July 2008 (UTC)Ross Varndell[reply]
Keep - I'm satisfied that there are enough reliable sources to establish notability. Not a lot but sufficient to clear the notability bar. Other issues are for editting and don't factor into the deletion decision. -- Whpq (talk) 16:49, 18 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Most of the "sources" are either standard government forms, press releases, or blogs. In the two newspaper articles, RobotShop receives a very trivial mention somewhere in the story. I cannot verify the reliability of the producer of the YouTube video, but it looks like an infomercial. Sorry, but not enough to establish sufficient notability. Regarding the canvassing, I assumed that since you and Jbrunet “are affiliated with” RobotShop, you might know who was soliciting RobotShop customers asking them to comment here. Since you don’t know, maybe the person who is doing so will read this.— Satori Son 13:51, 17 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • The fact that you do not understand French does not affect the fact that the video on Youtube is reliable. This is not an infomercial, this is a complete reportage about RobottShop. [14]. Here the official source and very easy to find on Google. The references in the newsletters are more than trivial, they talk about RobotShop, their products and they contain quotes from the founders. Your comments are not objectives. I am sorry.--Cameleon123 (talk) 17:31, 17 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

*Comment. AfD listed at

Banjeboi 13:34, 17 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
]

Only one !vote per editor please. -- Whpq (talk) 17:49, 17 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment None of the sources demonstrate non-trivial coverage. The Toronto Star article is the closest, but that article is primarily about robotic appliances; it only mentions Robotshop in passing. OhNoitsJamie Talk 17:45, 17 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment As the individual who started the article, I am unsure if I am in a position to cast a vote. My intention was to create a seed and have others add to it (something which takes time of course). Jameson L.Tai seems to have an unbiased approach which would necessitate additional time. Secondly, I agree that any content that appears to be an advertisement or spam should be reworked or removed. I agree with Whpq that it is best to omit premature "keep" or "delete" votes until the article has been reworked. Although I do not have a horse, I will grab the nearest four legged creature I can catch. --Cbenson1 (talk) 18:21, 17 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Added 3 magazine and news article scans, taken from the archives. These should establish notability (Note: these articles are in French so hopefully this will not be used against them): Magazine Le Village, Isabelle Lapierre - Quebec Micro, April 2007 - Metro Montreal, September 22nd 2004 Jbrunet (talk) 18:59, 17 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]


Here is my analysis of each of the items shown as references.

1. ^ Industry Canada - Corporation

Primary source which confirms only that the company exists.

2. ^ "Robotshop: La robotique à votre portée" (in French), Québec Micro (April 2007). Retrieved on 2008-07-17.

Secondary coverage in reliable source, Québec Micro magazine. Not an ad. Scan of article hosted at Robotshop rather than at the magazine, but no reason to question its legitimacy.

3. ^ Lapierre, Isabelle. "L'aide du futur" (in French), Magazine Le Village. Retrieved on 2008-07-17.

Secondary coverage in reliable source, Magazine Le Village. Not an ad. Scan of article hosted at Robotshop rather than at the magazine, but no reason to question its legitimacy.

4. ^ Massicotte, Jean-Sébastien (June 18, 2005). "Tondeuses-robots. Des appareils sans fil... et sans pilote ! Newspaper article about RobotShop and its products" (in French), Le Soleil. Retrieved on 2008-07-17.

More about robotic lawnmowers distributed by the company rather than the company itself. Secondary coverage in reliable source, a daily newspaper. Not an ad. Printout of article hosted at Robotshop rather than at the newspaper, but no reason to question its legitimacy.

5. ^ Quebec Government Company Registry

Primary source which confirms only that the company exists.

6. ETS Centech: September 2002 Bulletin

Primary source which confirms that RoboShop was active as a partnership in 2002.

7. ^ ETS Robotics Engineering Program

University web page. Not a claim to notability.

8. ^ Quebec Government Company Registry

Primary source which confirms only that the company exists.

9. ^ Synnett, Cindy (September 22, 2004). "Robotshop" (in French), Metro Montreal. Retrieved on 2008-07-17.

Secondary coverage in reliable source, a daily newspaper. Not an ad. Printout of article hosted at Robotshop rather than at the newspaper, but no reason to question its legitimacy.

10. ^ 2005 SAJE/CLD 2005 Annual Report

Primary source.

11. ^ RobotShop is Upgrading - Press Release

Press release – not a claim to notability.

12. ^ RobotShop is Duplicating - Press Release

Press release – not a claim to notability.

13. ^ Abry.biz by Vincent Abry Interview with RobotShop's Mario Tremblay

Better-than-average blog, but probably not a reliable source by Wikipedia standrds.

14. ^ CRC Robotics Competition Sponsored by RobotShop

Primary source. Not a claim to notability.

15. ^ Google Scholar: RobotShopRoboGames Sponsorship

Google search.

16. ^ Turrentine, Jeff (May 5, 2005). "Relax, grass-cutting gizmo at work", Toronto Star. Retrieved on 2008-07-17.

Part of text of article. Main topic is the mower rather than RoboShop as a dealer.

17. ^ Turrentine, Jeff (May 5, 2005). "Relax, grass-cutting gizmo at work" (pdf), Toronto Star. Retrieved on 2008-07-17.

Scan of article hosted at Robotshop rather than at the newspaper, but no reason to question its legitimacy. Main topic is the mower rather than RoboShop as a dealer.

18. ^ "Robotshop: La robotique à votre portée." (in French), Québec Micro (April 2007). Retrieved on 2008-07-17.

Same as #2

19. ^ Television report on RobotShop Distribution Inc., NerdZ TV show, Thursday, November 30, 2006, by Jean Fournier

Not broadcast television, but a licensed specialty channel in Canada. The program is listed in a press release from the Canadian Association of Broadcasters "CAB Announces Finalists for 2006 Gold Ribbon Awards". See the listing for the show at http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0456243/ Hosted at YouTube rather than on the channel's website, so possible copyright concerns – but still a reliable source.

20. ^ Crowley, Dan (2005). The 505 Weirdest Online Stores: 505 Things You Never Thought You Could Buy .... Sourcebooks, Inc., 64.
ISBN 1402203772
.

Book from a commercial publisher. Acceptable as a secondary source.

21. ^ RobotShop Learning Center

Primary source, from the company's web site. ---Eastmain (talk) 20:02, 17 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that membership in a Better Business Bureau does not confer notability. Similarly, advertisements do not confer notability by themselves. --Eastmain (talk) 20:12, 17 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

*Comment. AfD listed at WikiProject Canada / Quebec and WikiProject Companies.

Banjeboi 21:40, 17 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
]

  • Also note that (1) quite a few of the keep votes are SPA accounts (2) the Toronto Star reference is trivial; the only non-trivial references are in French; I don't speak French, so I don't know if the references are non-trivial, or if they are notable and/or WP:Reliable sources and (3) we're talking about a retailer/distributor that sells and repairs robots made by other companies. OhNoitsJamie Talk 02:15, 21 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Not to be rude...but shouldn't we be asking someone who actually understands French to verify these references instead of second-guessing and possibly casting doubt on possible good references? I mean I don't understand French either, so I wouldn't know. I've given an honest effort trying to get references for this article, but they're mostly in French. Perhaps a relist with a notice in the translation team? - Jameson L. Tai talk ♦ contribs 04:23, 21 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • And regarding the SPA accounts, I believe there are almost equal amounts of SPAs as real editors with established edit histories. I think the previous discussions and votes should be noted, but not counted, as votes towards the old version do not necessarily reflect the article in its current condition. Also, this will prevent certain SPAs from proper vote counting. Same can be said about the delete votes. A simple delete vote above without much explanation hardly gives meaningful points for further discussion. - Jameson L. Tai talk ♦ contribs 04:32, 21 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • as votes towards the old version do not necessarily reflect the article in its current condition So does that mean that if I didn't reiterate my original !vote, that it would be discounted? No. If an interested party wants to change their !vote, they have that option. It's not assumed null unless re-validated. OhNoitsJamie Talk 04:39, 21 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment The article itself has changed significantly since it was originally written. Many of the original users who wrote "delete" and "keep" have not made any comments regarding its current state. Note that the most corporate websites have only a small fraction of the notability listed here. Next, please note the yellow "up for deletion" argument was changed to "delete" within 7 MINUTES after having slightly modified the article. According to Wikipedia, it's not the number of votes that bears the most weight, but rather the merit of the arguments. An increasing number of users have since returned to change their votes from "delete" to "keep" and their comments are appreciated - it would seem most users add their vote and never return, and most users (completely unaffiliated with the company) put in so much effort to keep the page active. I also hope everyone notes that if a concensus is not reached, the default is to "keep" the article. For those who do not understand French, one option is to use an online translator program, or eat a lot of poutine. --Cbenson1 (talk) 17:18, 21 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • If someone does not retract or change their opinion, that opinion stands. Just for the record, my opinion to "delete as insufficiently notable" has not changed. — Satori Son 21:12, 21 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - Please tell me why Jameson L. Tai is asking for someone who actually understands French to verify these references??? Hey, take the time to read the full story up here. I mean, Eastmain took his precious time to do exactly what you ask for! Your comments are not really useful at this time of the discussion. You are not useful because you do not understand French so you cannot be a good judge. Give your place or give credit to Eastmain, who is fully bilingual and a regular editor of WikiProject Robotics.--Cameleon123 (talk) 02:38, 22 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keeping things civil is the first thing editors need to learn and practice, especially on topics such as AfD discussions. I have made significant changes to the article and I believe I voted to keep the article, but yes, I do agree there is still no clear assertion of notability based on English sources. Making a simple request to having someone who understand French review and comment on the references is a by-the-book and necessary call in order to verify and clear the references. This is a open-collaboration encyclopedia, which will entail much work, time, and effort from contributors from all around the world. I'm not discounting Eastmain's contributions nor intentions, but please do not try to personally attack my comment, considering comparing Eastmain's work under WikiProject Robotics with my organization of the WikiProject itself. It is best that if you are seriously letting this discussion cloud your fair judgement in forming civil and constructive comments, to take a break and take a step back. - Jameson L. Tai talk ♦ contribs 07:52, 22 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment I do not know who you are and I really don't care. I base my comments on what I read here. I do not agree with you: your request to having someone who understands French review and comment on the references was NOT a necessary call at this point because this is already done by Eastmain. So saying this again in your last comment, you just continue to ignore the work of other Wikipedians and this in my opinion is not a constructive and civil comment. Tell us why you are not satisfied with what Eastmain did as study?--Cameleon123 (talk) 13:06, 22 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • I have said before, and I'll say it again, Wikipedia is a large collaboration from many contributors. While I have not discounted or discredited Eastmain's work, your continued aggressive attitude towards this discussion is not constructive. Asking for other people to cross-check each other's work is commonplace and is vital on Wikis, and it has dawned on me that you're taking this article too seriously to form a productive outcome. I suggest you take a chillpill. - Jameson L. Tai talk ♦ contribs 00:45, 23 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - I expressed a Delete opinion (way up top) and I have reviewed again, and come to the same conclusion. There are references, but they don't establish notability. Having a corporate record with Canada or Quebec does not make a company notable; it merely makes it a legal entity. The company's annual report is self-published, and therefore not independent. This company is a distributor - that doesn't make them notable. Sponsorship of "robotgames" is advertising. A Youtube video is not generally considered a reliable source. The Abry.biz reference is essentially a blog; any entry that has to claim in its intro that it is not sponsored is suspect, in my opinion. (If you have to put a disclaimer up front, it's probably because you have a conflict of interest or otherwise appear to be biased.) I don't read French, so I have no opinion as to the validity of those sources, but it seems to me that if the only way to establish notability is in a foreign language, it probably belongs in that language's version of Wikipedia, not English. All of these things added up, plus a lack of ability to find reliable sources in English, lead me to conclude (still) that this article does not establish notability of its subject. (Note: COI does not strike me as a reason to delete an article; if it's notable, that can be cleaned up; this article's subject just doesn't appear notable to me.)  Frank  |  talk  13:55, 22 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete Although I have made several attempts to rescue this article to be as non-"spammy" as possible, there are not enough references to justify the notability of this company. Conversation with User:Cameleon123 aside, this article does not fulfill current Wikipedia standards on notability of a corporation. (Previous vote has been struck out) - Jameson L. Tai talk ♦ contribs 00:45, 23 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

 :KEEP IT Don't demolish the house while it's still being built

man tries to build a house. He has a few of his neighbors come to help. They are working very nicely and organized-like, like you would expect from people who are trying to build a house. Soon, a building inspector comes by. "Those stairs don't look right," the inspector says, pulling out a tape measure, "and by these measurements, they are not wide enough." The builder replies, "They aren't finished yet." The inspector moves on. "This wall isn't supported enough," the inspector says nonchalantly. "Of course not," the builder replies, "We haven't finished it yet."

"And look!" the inspector cries, "There is no ceiling! The owners of this house will be angry indeed when they get rained on." "They won't!" the builder retorts, "Because when it's done there will be a ceiling!" The inspector ignores him. "This house is no good, builder. It must be torn down." The next day he sends someone to demolish the house.

--24.37.209.6 (talk) 01:49, 23 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
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The result was moot. Content has already been merged and page turned into redirect. Fabrictramp | talk to me 00:06, 17 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Konjac Candy

AfDs for this article:
    Konjac Candy (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD
    )

    The article's information has been effectively merged into the

    Konjac candy page does not need to exist. Coolotter88 (talk) 16:27, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
    ]


    The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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    The result was keep. --PeaceNT (talk) 05:39, 17 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    2008 Oregon Ducks football team

    2008 Oregon Ducks football team (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

    This article is far too detailed for any team, let alone a college team. What's really going on is that someone is trying to use Wikipedia as their team's home page. Let's stop this now before it becomes a habit. DJ Clayworth (talk) 15:51, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Keep Well referenced and many teams have season article so why not this one.

    talk) 17:23, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
    ]

    Keep Per above. --Elassint (talk) 17:30, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Keep This article is no more detailed than previous team years from other teams. See 2005 Texas Longhorns football team, which is actually a featured article. These pages provide information on seasons in a much more concise way than official websites. It is far easier to find statistics and game recaps here than at websites such as goducks.com. Aplaceicallhome (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 18:29, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Keep Can't see any reason not to: looks well-researched albeit prolix.

    few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply
    ]

    Keep - Single Seasons, single games, etc are all considered notable. hands down keep. PGPirate 22:00, 16 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]


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    The result was Redirected to (Hey Hey Hey under my) Umbrella --JForget 00:12, 23 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Rihanna Curse

    Rihanna Curse (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD
    )

    Poorly-referenced and little more than a news article. All content already covered at

    talk) 15:23, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
    ]


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    The result was delete all, implemented as protected redirects. I'm trying something slightly new here. We have consensus that these are not appropriate stand-alone articles, essentially for the reasons given in the nomination. But several editors assert that the material could be usefully merged to other articles. I'm a bit skeptical about this (the only sources cited are primary sources) but there are some limited cases where primary sources may be used. To allow for limited re-use of this material (to the extent it is well-sourced and as long as there is consensus for any mergers), I am implementing the "delete" consensus not through deletion but through protected redirection to the respective "list of" articles. The redirects should be nominated for speedy deletion on their talk pages, citing this AfD, if no merger has occurred after several months or so.  Sandstein  06:39, 24 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Soul Reaper (Bleach)

    Soul Reaper (Bleach) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD
    )

    Fails

    WP:FICT. The topic of the various "species" within the Bleach series has not "received significant real-world coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject." Extremely excessive in-universe article sprinkled with personal essay style "discussion" and OR. Redundant to the List of Soul Reapers in Bleach
    , which already adequately covers the topic in an appropriate fashion.

    I am also nominating the following related pages because they all fail the same guidelines and are redundant to their respective lists:

    List of Bounts in Bleach
    )
    List of hollows in Bleach
    )

    -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 15:08, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]


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    The result was speedy delete (

    t/c) 20:13, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
    ]

    Shawnglish

    Shawnglish (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

    More neologism shenanigans. This was already Speedy Deleted, but now it is back (if not by popular demand).

    talk) 15:06, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
    ]

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     — 

    t/c) 20:13, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
    ]

    The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

    The result was delete. Consensus, at least to the extent the contributions are based on applicable policies and guidelines, agrees with the nominator and Sephiroth BCR. A merger has also been proposed, but it remains completely unclear what could be merged where and why, so this is not really an actionable option. If consensus is established later on an appropriate talk page as to which material should be merged where (to the extent it is sourced!), a history restoration is not out of the question.  Sandstein  06:51, 24 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Zanpakutō

    Zanpakutō (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD
    )

    Fails

    WP:FICT. The topic of the "fictional type of magic sword" known as Zanpakutō from the Bleach series has not "received significant real-world coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject." -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 15:06, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
    ]

    No need. Just merge each individual weapon with their corresponding character, bring back Jirobo and the others that got the boot, and do the same for notable Bakkoto.
    StardustDragon 17:28, 16 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
    ]


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    The result was Snow delete. TCari My travels 20:32, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Lacuna Coil's forthcoming studio album

    AfDs for this article:
    Lacuna Coil's forthcoming studio album (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

    poorly sourced and unnamed per

    not a crystal ball neon white talk 14:41, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
    ]


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    The result was Keep. As below, quality sources provided, no need for this to run any longer. Seraphim♥Whipp 16:15, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Sister Nancy

    Sister Nancy (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

    This seems to be an article about a non-notable musician. Doesn't provide any sources. Admiral Norton (talk) 14:36, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]


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    The result was keep. --PeaceNT (talk) 05:40, 17 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    James Follett

    James Follett (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

    The article's claim of Follett's being one of the 400s most-lent author is unverified (and I cannot find a source). Furthermore, considering the notability criteria for "creative professionals":

    • Regarded as an important figure or widely cited - doesn't apply
    • Originating a significant new concept, theory or technique - doesn't apply
    • created...a significant or well-known work...which has been the subject of an independent book or feature-length film, or multiple independent periodical articles - I can see no sign of this being the case
    • their work has become a) a significant monument b) been a substantial part of a significant exhibition c) has won significant critical attention d) is represented within the permanent collections of several notable galleris of museums, or had works in many significant libraries - ditto

    So it seems to me that Follet meets none of the relevant criteria. MatthewVernon (talk) 14:24, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    • Note: This debate has been included in the list of Authors-related deletion discussions.
    • Keep The list of works by this author is extensive, and includes some notable works like Earthsearch. Easily satisifies "significant critical attention". [20] DJ Clayworth (talk) 14:53, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Strong Keep A search on
      EBSCO
      found multiple independent periodical articles:
      • Title: Crown Court (Book Review);Authors:Veit, Henri C.;Source:Library Journal; 2/1/78, Vol. 103 Issue 3, p388
      • Title: Churchill's Gold (Book);Authors:Sweeney, J.K.;Source:Library Journal; 06/15/81, Vol. 106 Issue 12, p1321
      • Title:Forecasts: Fiction;Source:Publishers Weekly; 07/17/2000, Vol. 247 Issue 29, p180; bstract:Reviews two science fiction books. `Temple of the Winds,' by James Follett;...
      • Title:SF/Fantasy/Horror NOTES;Source:Publishers Weekly; 01/29/2001, Vol. 248 Issue 5, p70; Reviews several books and science fiction titles. ...`Wicca,' by James Follett...--Captain-tucker (talk) 15:30, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Strong keep Well-known and ref'd SF author, per Google. BFG1701 (talk) 20:11, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Strong keep Is this a joke? He's a very well known British sci-fi writer with 'Earthsearch' having been dramatised on the BBC, among many other works. Nick mallory (talk) 05:01, 16 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]


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    The result was redirect to Stacy Horn.

    EchoNYC

    EchoNYC (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD
    )

    Apparently non-notable chat forum. Yes, it's been mentioned in the New York Times and the New York News so technically does pass the "multiple independent" bit of

    iridescent 14:25, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
    ]

    Delete Doesn't seem notable despite references. DJ Clayworth (talk) 15:03, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Dee-lete. Non-notable. Madman (talk) 21:25, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Well, redirect. it is definitely a notable bbs/web site in terms of early Internet history, but i'm not interested in early internet history and simply wanted to add some information about it somewhere. so a redirect is perfect.-Manhattan Samurai (talk) 23:43, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
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    The result was keep, per new references found, and apparent notabiltiy beyond her familial notability. I fully expect the article to reflect the references found and linked here at AfD to be worked into the article. If they are not, I fully expect a re-nomination for deletion. Keeper ǀ 76 22:28, 23 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Nancy Walker Bush Ellis

    Nancy Walker Bush Ellis (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

    Non-notable presidential relative who fails to meet

     RGTraynor  14:17, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
    ]

    • Comment: The Time article has the same problem that is the same in each and every citation: it is not about Nancy Ellis. It is, in fact, about expat voters, and Ellis' sole mention in it is trivial: "Bush adviser Karl Rove, the President's aunt, Nancy Bush Ellis, and former Vice President Dan Quayle have all hit the European trail as part of the re-election campaign." That's it, and I think better of Time magazine than to believe that'd be their definition of notability.
       RGTraynor  10:24, 16 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
      ]


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    The result was delete.  Sandstein  23:21, 20 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Strategic Public Relations

    Strategic Public Relations (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

    Unsourced, perhaps unsourceable OR; spam for named firms. AndrewHowse (talk) 14:07, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]


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    The result was delete.  Sandstein  23:22, 20 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Scot Brown

    Scot Brown (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

    Subject does not meet the notability requirements of Wikipedia:Notability (people). No evidence this associate professor has been the subject of non-trivial coverage by multiple, reliable, published sources. Contested PROD, so comes here. — Satori Son 13:55, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    could you perhaps explain this cryptic remark? DGG (talk) 23:19, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]


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    The result was no consensus to delete, default to keep.

    I discounted some opinions from either side who did not address the problem at issue here (

    notability
    ) or who gave no substantial reasons at all for their opinion (yes, Grsz11, you do need to bother explaining why). This leaves the community still about evenly divided about the notability of this family, with a slight tilt towards "keep."

    As far as I can tell, neither side has obviously stronger policy-based arguments. The "delete" side argues that the family as such has not received the level of coverage required per

    WP:NFCC.)  Sandstein  22:05, 20 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
    ]

    Obama family

    AfDs for this article:
    talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD
    )

    This is a collection of non-notable individuals, many of whom have previously had articles about them deleted or merged into Barack Obama for notability reasons after extensive discussion. All of the same arguments apply here. The only notable people in this article (such as Barack Obama and Michelle Obama) already have extensive articles written about them. For the others, notability is not inherited. Their only notability is their connection to someone notable. Further, notability is not cumulative. If they are not individually notable, how can they be considered notable as a group?

    Note that this article was previously deleted after an AfD discussion. This version is not substantially identical to that version so it is not eligible for speedy deletion. However, the title and subject matter are identical, so all of the arguments from that AfD discussion are applicable here. Loonymonkey (talk) 13:47, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    I'm having difficulty here assuming Looney's good faith in desiring open discussion of this matter. Eg (more precisely than his statements) commenters in the
    Barack Sr.'s, in fact that's what ended up being done, by that article's principal writer, Wikidemo
    ; furthermore, some commenters in the previous AfD said their recommendation would be different if this former version had had more than two family members covered----their arguments, as one major example, cannot be part of any offhand suggestion that all arguments there are applicable here. And lastly!--------Looney simply deleted not only my interspersed interjection but also one comment I made after his, both in violation of WP etiquette and protocols, harrumpf!   Justmeherenow (  ) 17:32, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Please try to remain civil in this discussion. It's a little early to revert to personal attacks. I did not delete anything. What I did was move your comments to the discussion section after you altered my AfD rationale, splitting it into two separate comments with your comments inserted. This is completely non-standard, against protocols and frankly very rude. Please discuss the deletion rationally in the discussion section without altering others' comments. Also, both etiquette and protocol dictate that new comments should be placed at the bottom of the discussion. I'm not sure why you feel that your comments belong at the top (or even within the rationale itself) regardless of when they were made. --Loonymonkey (talk) 17:46, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Please don't label me as attacking you personally, Looney. I'd described my impression I'd received only of your actions after seeing my comments had been removed. Only after I'd typed and submitted it did I notice that you'd moved my clarification of your statements to the bottom of the page, so I withdraw that particular part of my allegation regarding your problematic behavior.   Justmeherenow (  ) 17:58, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    If that's the case, you may want to strike your comments above. Anyway, this isn't the place to discuss it. Feel free to comment on my talk page if you still have issues. --Loonymonkey (talk) 18:08, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Strong keep Much (if not most) of this material is new, and many of the members of the family don't have and may never have Wiki-articles (though I think some should--as discussed elsewhere). I never saw the previously deleted version, but understand this version is entirely new and it looks well done and deserves inclusion. I strongly oppose full merges of other existing articles into this article (we can just add wiki links to them), but see this article as a good overview of the very notable family of Barack Obama.--Utahredrock (talk) 13:55, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Keep. I'm ignoring the previous version because it was deleted, so my opinion is based on the current version. Although individual relatives of presidents are not necessarily notable enough for viable articles, there is established notability for interest in the family trees of presidents. In lieu of individual articles being created on these people, an examination of the family tree of a presidential candidate is viable. I would also support a similar article on John McCain's family and if one doesn't exist I strongly advise one be created in order to maintain non-partisanship here. No prejudice against revisiting this article in AFD should Obama not be elected, however. 23skidoo (talk) 14:04, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    That argument seems to be a variation of the
    Notability is inherited argument. You're essentially saying that this article should be kept because of its association with someone so notable, but that if Obama were not the presidential candidate (or were to lose the election) then the article wouldn't be as notable. Notability, however, isn't inherited, no matter how great the notability of the related article. --Loonymonkey (talk) 21:39, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
    ]
    Well in spite of
    WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS I'd say the "Obama" family in this context doesn't meet our notability criteria for inclusion in the same way as the "Ford" and "Carter" families don't meet our criteria for inclusion. They have notable members but, are not notable as an entity in an of itself. Jasynnash2 (talk) 15:46, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
    ]
    • Strong keep - first of all, clearly notable per
      WP:BIO. There is significant coverage about this subject in hundreds, probably thousands, of reliable sources. In substance this is a subject serious people want to read about in order to improve their understanding of the world - they take note, here, via publications, and off Wiki. That meets the substantive criterion of notability. Second this nomination and other nomination discussions of Barack Obama's family member articles have an inescapable POV problem. Some people clearly do intend to either suppress information about Obama because they don't like the candidate, or because they do like the candidate and see the African ancestry and Muslim faith of some of his family as potentially embarrassing. They have said so directly, evidenced this via a pattern of edit histories, or said this in the negative, accusing the material of being a POV problem / coatrack they want to correct. But even discounting the motivations, systematic and persistent deletion of information about the candidate's family background has a POV effect whether intended or not. It suppresses information about Africa, race, and multiculturalism, and perpetuates the fact of Americans denying and hiding the less urbane side of their diverse identities. Third, the information here is the result of a "merge" result from other AfDs. There is no other logical place to put the material that would not result in a similar article so the outcome of a delete would best be to re-create the child articles, which would lead to a procedural Snafu. We really should get over this nonsense and stop attempting to delete important encyclopedic content from the project. Wikidemo (talk) 17:58, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
      ]
    • Speedy Keep - Doing a Google on "Obama Family Tree" produces 9,540 entries for that exact phrase. The overriding rule
      WP:NOTE is If a topic has received significant coverage in reliable secondary sources that are independent of the subject, it is presumed to be notable. The article as written provides a great and very useful family tree diagram. It will be a very useful dumping ground when lesser Obamas. Rarely do we see a topic up for deletion with that many Google pages. The debate is not whether we think the Obamas are notable but whether third parties consider them notable and it's clear thousands of people consider them notable. Americasroof (talk) 18:48, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
      ]
    Notability isn't conferred through google hits. I get thousands of hits on my own name, but that doesn't mean I can start an article about myself. As for the article being a useful dumping ground, well, yes. That's one of the problems. --Loonymonkey (talk) 19:14, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    What other dumping ground would you propose, or are you trying to eliminate information about Obama's family from the encyclopedia entirely? Notability is demonstrated by sources, which are often accessible via google. That search result (39,000 hits for me[26] and 8 news hits[27] shows some interesting results, although it is far underinclusive due to its precise wording. All appear related to the subject though as usual the reult contains lots (though less than usual) of stray results. Wikidemo (talk) 19:53, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    I would propose that Wikipedia isn't the place for dumping grounds of non-notable information. And again,
    google hits are not a measure of notability. There are millions of hits for Barack Obama, many of which are going to discuss his family background in the context of providing biographical detail about him.--Loonymonkey (talk) 21:55, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
    ]
    Apparently editors interested in the well-known families of namesakes that aren't blue-blooded don't contribute to articles on the topic, only tack things on to them. We don't move a file elsewhere, only deposit it. We don't merge various members' of such families' biographies, only commingle them. What's to be learned from this? That such information as

    Jean Ann Kennedy and Stephen Edward Smith had four children:
    Stephen Edward Smith, Jr.
    William Kennedy Smith - 1991 rape acquittal, physician, activist against land mines
    Amanda Mary Smith, married Carter Hood, one child
    Kym Maria Smith, married Alfie Tucker

    ----when drawn from wide media coverage given the     Romneys (and Rockerfellers and Vanderbuilts, per another comment below) is encyclopedic but when folks receiving wide media coverage are of less noble lineage, it's cruft.   Justmeherenow (  ) 01:36, 16 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Or the McDucks (motto " FORTVNA · FAVET · FORTIBVS ," see Clan McDuck#Family tree), whose patriarch's worth was listed in 2007's "The Forbes 15" at $28.8 Billion.[28]
    • NEUTRAL (however, if Loony's Anti- "Dumping" (ie merging) of Obama Family Members' Bios campaign should change individual members' article's AfD results from No consensus for deletion but consensus for merger to Deletion through stealth I change my "vote" to Keep).   Justmeherenow
      Madelyn Payne
      have indie articles or else biographical coverage in a composite article is shrugable, the present composite article is as good as any, for the time being.   Justmeherenow (  ) 03:45, 16 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Delete. The family itself is not notable in the way that the Rockefellers or Kennedys or Roosevelts are. Individual notable family members should have their own articles, but the family is not notable. Madman (talk) 21:30, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Keep In cases of borderline individual notability like this the obvious course is to have a combination article, not try for articles on the individual people. Applies here just as with fictional characters.DGG (talk) 21:56, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Keep. The current article has 19 references, and there are several independent articles that are proposed to merge in with dozens of additional references. Almost all of these references are from articles major news outlets covering Obama's family (CNN, ABC, Newsweek, and many others). So, based on
      WP:N we have 1) "significant coverage" in the form of several dozen articles 2) from "reliable sources," specifically a wide variety of respected news outlets 3) which are clearly "independent of the subject." It meets all the criteria. Now, there would be some justification for removing some of the individual entries which do not contain any detail (or perhaps condensing them into a few sentences by category). And the family tree image is too wide to fit in the browser, it doesn't seem that breaking the page layout is appropriate. Maracle (talk) 05:19, 16 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
      ]
    ----I narrowed the family relationship chart. (Much less wide now than that at Bush family#Family tree.) ( checkY )   Justmeherenow (  ) 06:10, 16 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Actually, if it were simply a list of relatives of Barack Obama (and not biographies), it would have a much stronger rationale for being kept as an article. Then it would be in the context of biographical details about Barack Obama (which is the only reason any of these people are being mentioned) and not pretending that they are uniquely notable. But as it is, this article is simply a coatrack on which to hang a bunch of biographical articles that have previously failed notability after extensive deletion discussions. --Loonymonkey (talk) 01:36, 18 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    ...As is the case with lots of list on Wikipedia. If you think the article is getting too far away from its status as a subtopic of Barack Obama, fix it: we all know that's the main topic here. And the article does acknowledge that, in the lead. It is irrelevant if individual entries have been regarded as not notable enough, and if any of those entries are too expansive, they can be reduced. As a topic, this is just fine. Mangojuicetalk 03:36, 18 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    I see your point. If the result of this discussion ends up being "Keep" with the rationale that the inherent problems can be fixed through editing, it would be great to get some guidance from the closing admin as to what the apparent problems are and what the limits of the article's scope should be. --Loonymonkey (talk) 22:38, 18 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Delete For the record, I think that currently the family itself is not notable. Obama has an article - that is more than enough. If his relatives become governors, CEOs, etc then great. But at the moment it's daft to have an entire family tree and all of this based purely on Obama's profile. Are we to delete all of this if he loses the election, or is it all justified just because he is a mere nominee? I don't see an article on the Dole or Kerry families. John Smith's (talk) 22:38, 17 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Actually we do. Wikipedia was much smaller in 2004, and Bob Kerry's family is not a group of Africans and expatriates. Nevertheless, we do have
    Robert Charles Winthrop, and Francis Blackwell Forbes. Many of those articles have lists of family members in turn. Wikidemo (talk) 23:05, 17 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
    ]
    I'm not sure of the applicability of celebrity children are to Presidential candidates' families but there is in fact extensive discussion of the children in the Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie articles. Notability, obviously, is inherited in that way. There is no "on their own" standard on Wikipedia. The standard is worth noting, as evidenced by coverage in multiple reliable sources. There is no consensus for refusing to discuss Obama's family members in the encyclopedia. The result of the other two deletion discussions was to merge, not delete. So the information was merged into the most logical place. If that article is now attacked to get rid of the information, where else would it be merged? The main Obama article is not appropriate - it would be of undue weight there. The article about Obama's father isn't a terrible place but what's the point of moving the information from here to there? All this does is to create a procedural mess. Wikidemo (talk) 17:11, 19 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    That's my point exactly. The children are discussed in Pitt and Jolie's articles because it a biographical detail of those notable people. But the newborn twins do not have their own article. The reason they don't is because they are not independently notable (and trust me, if such an article were allowed on Wikipedia it would not only exist but would have been edited furiously the past few weeks). I haven't bothered to check the deletion logs, but I'm willing to bet such an article was deleted in the last couple of weeks for notability reasons. This is the "on their own" standard (that really does exist on Wikipedia.)--Loonymonkey (talk) 19:38, 20 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Speaking of actor families----as well as charts scrolling off way right in the browser, check out
    Coppola family tree
    .   Justmeherenow (  ) 20:01, 20 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]


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    The result was Keep. Notability now established by cited sources. (non-admin closure by nominator). -

    talk) 15:29, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
    ]

    Dawn of the Black Hearts

    talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD
    )

    Fails

    talk) 13:39, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
    ]

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    The result was delete. Fabrictramp | talk to me 13:46, 23 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Claire Sutton

    Claire Sutton (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

    Being a QVC presenter does not provide inherent notability and that appears to be the only thing she's known for. Without the qualifier there are only false positives for the wrong Claire Sutton. TCari My travels 13:27, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Delete Not notable, per the Google hits. Matthewedwards (talk • contribs • email) 01:15, 17 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]


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    The result was delete. Fabrictramp | talk to me 13:50, 23 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Wayne DZ

    Wayne DZ (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

    Non-notable radio program on a community radio station. It claims to be the longest running show in sydney, but I can't find anything to that effect in locations other than the article itself. Ironho lds 13:07, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    dear, Ironholds i'm new to creating additions to Wikipedia, and would appreciate some help, as im trying to understand why this post may be open for debate and deletion.. I was under the impression that Wikipedia was created to share information, similarly to the radio program that is being discussed. Not all community shows are "my spaced" and referenced all over the internet, especially underground music radio shows... as you dismissed contacting the station, myself or linked sources of interviews, i cannot comprehend what your code for inclusion is...? let me know what the issue is more clearly please.. so we can ammend this... regards, niepce — Preceding unsigned comment added by Niepce (talk • contribs) 14:43, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    I didn't "dismiss" anything, was I contacted about it? :S. Wikipedia is created to share information yes, but not indiscriminantly; we can't include everything about everything. We have a set of notability guidelines found at
    WP:NOTABILITY which govern what is and is not a notable page for field X. The general guideline is that if something has two or more independent, notable coverage, it's worthy of inclusion. Taking google hits for "Wayne DZ" as an example (although ghits are not on their own considered a reason for delete/keep) you find the page on the radio stations website about it (from which most of the article is copied) and a load of unrelated myspace, youtube and facebook pages. Ironho lds 15:15, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
    ]

    dear, Ironholds, thanks for your detailed reply, as i said i am new to placing additions and appreciate the time and comments, i know your doing a good job keeping illegitmate posts out, and i respect that thouroughly, now that i see the rules that dictate your comments, notability clause and Taking google hits etc, but i cant understand how you could dismiss a university run station and what is sydneys longest running underground radio show, with international filmakers, artists and musicians contibuting to it for the last 24 years..?

    btw... 2 contributors, Richard Kuipers, Brendan Walls, work for Australian tv stations, and are both documentary film makers, and supporting this program and underground experimental music..

    if you want to search them out feel free, and i would also appreciate any help with tidying up the page, as it is new to me. regards, niepce — Preceding unsigned comment added by Niepce (talk • contribs) 16:01, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Flattery will get you everywhere :P. Again, university-run is not a notability clause. There aren't any specific notability requirements for radio programs, so we have to follow the standard ones. If you look at the article on BBC Radio 1, a station that's been running since 1967, you'll note that even there they don't have articles on every single program regardless of how long they've been running. You might want to include it in the radio stations page instead. Ironho lds 20:02, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]


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    The result was delete. It consists of original research and synthesis, per

    WP:SYNTH. Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 18:45, 23 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
    ]

    Yugoslav Patriotic Songs

    Yugoslav Patriotic Songs (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

    List article about a topic of non-documented notability and unaccounted-for inclusion criteria. Unsourced, OR introduction, uncategorised, misspelled title (it's not a proper name, the article author just means "Yugoslav patriotic songs" as a descriptive phrase). I was going to merge into

    Popular music in the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, but then I saw I couldn't do even that without sourced confirmation that these are in fact a representative sample of notable songs, and not just the article creator's personal favorites or the ones that simply first came to his mind. Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:53, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
    ]

    A bad article in dire need of a rewrite; but a rewrite is what it needs, not deletion. The subject obviously has scope for notability. Keep. DJ Clayworth (talk) 15:13, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
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    The result was delete for failure to meet

    WP:ORG. Danlev, the time to establish notability would have been now.  Sandstein  06:56, 24 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
    ]

    K2GXT

    K2GXT (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

    Disputed PROD for a student-run amateur radio club at

    WP:COI problem. • Gene93k (talk) 11:48, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
    ]

    • Comment Article already has multiple sources outside RIT or the radio club; that's WP's definition of notability. The original nomination was for lack of third-party sources, which have since been added. If the above comment about it being an important communications link during the Grenada crisis checks out, that also makes it notable. Finally, because the club operates a station with internet-linked repeaters and packet digipeaters, it is part of the communications infrastructure of the Rochester area. Squidfryerchef (talk) 21:37, 16 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment There are 14 references, 7 are primary sources (from university publications, websites, or a press releases), 1 is from the FCC (which doesn't do much to establish notability), 3 don't mention the subject of the article at all, and 1 is from a self published hobbiest website (which doesn't establish notability). The link to the American Diabetes page does establish that the group provided support but I don't know how much that does to establish notability here. The Rochester Democrat & Chronicle article is the one reasonably good verifiable 3rd party reference though it doesn't mention the subject the article either. The the only reference for the Grenada claim is above and that's to a self published source which doesn't help either. If this organization is notable, certainly there are better references than these.--Rtphokie (talk) 22:39, 16 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment The 3rd party references are 3rd party references, that is fulfilling what the complaint was, a lack thereof. Ok we are working to correct that and have made progress, do we need more, certainly, but it shows that something is forming. The Grenada Incident that I have mentioned could be checked out. As I clearly stated, I asked if anyone can help look for references to the claim. As for the self-published hobbiest website, amateur radio is a hobby and there certainly will be websites by other groups or organizations. Why would it not be a legit source? Technically, a professors personal website would have lack of validity in that case... even if considerable research was done, I would suggest making statements about references such as this more clear in the future. If references do not have a title, why not help and fill in the missing information? As I clearly stated on the talk page, I am new to this and any help is welcome. KB1LQC (talk) 00:04, 17 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment There are three more references under the "references" header instead of "footnotes", which don't have inline cites. They are two issues of QST magazine and a newspaper article. All three are secondary sources. ( To the above poster: ) yes, primary sources and self-published sources by experts are valid, but this debate is about notability, and secondary sources establish notability. Squidfryerchef (talk) 13:07, 17 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]


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    References

    1. ^ Famous Hams KA2ORK Details
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    The result was keep. To facilitate matters, I've discounted all comments (in roughly equal parts from either side) whose mangled English, excessive use of exclamation points and/or generally rambling style indicates that they are motivated more by their writers' ethnic background than by Wikipedia policies.

    I've also discounted several blanket assertions that the subject is unsourced. These are perplexing assertions because even the nominated version features a direct quote from what appears to be an academic work by American scholars (The Library of Congress World War II Companion by Kennedy et al.) describing the knife and its use; in view of this, the sourcing issue would have needed to be addressed in more detail by such "delete" opinions.

    The opinions that remain indicate a rough consensus that, based on the sources cited in the article, a type of knife called "Srbosjek" is adequately documented as having existed in reliable sources (as the nominator has to his credit acknowledged). Insofar as doubt remains as to the extent it was used by whom on whom, where, when and why, these are issues that can be addressed through editing.  Sandstein  23:06, 20 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Srbosjek (knife)

    AfDs for this article:
    Srbosjek (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD
    )

    Right to the point: ever since this article was created by not-so-unbiased

    TALK) 11:08, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
    ]

    I'm not what you'd call a sore loser ;). In light of all the sources brought forth here to support the existence of the knife, I withdraw my vote (and the nomination). --
    TALK) 22:03, 18 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
    ]
      • Comment As to the deletion proposal I advise the administrator handling this case to
      • Reject - pointless disqualification of the person (User:Joka) who initially wrote this article - which (disqualification) is an act of incivility and attack on this person
      • Reject The first is the Serbian historian Bulajić, most notable for his genocide denial rhetoric concerning the Srebrenica massacre of the recent Yugoslav Wars. - this has nothing to do with this article, Bulajic is not referenced here
      • Reject - attacks on other editors frivolously accused of being someone's puppets
      • Accept the most powerful testimony of the knife existence coming from Nikola Nikolić, a Jasenovac concentration camp survivor and a Croat and a physician who described the knife in his book.
      • Taborišče smrti--Jasenovac by Nikola Nikolić (author), Jože Zupančić (translator) Published 1969 Založba "Borec":
      • The knife is described on Page 72: 'Na koncu noža, tik bakrene ploščice, je bilo z vdolbnimi črkami napisano "Grafrath gebr. Solingen", na usnju pa reliefno vtisnjena nemška tvrtka "Graeviso"'
      • Picture of the knife with description is on Page 73: 'Posebej izdelan nož, ki so ga ustaši uporabljali pri množičnih klanjih. Pravili so mu "kotač" - kolo - in ga je izdelovala nemška tvrtka "Graviso"'--J. A. Comment (talk) 21:45, 17 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Delete per nom. Article fails
      reliable sources. Article has already been deleted once [38] after its first AfD, only to be reincarnated for, as far as I can tell, purely political reasons. AlasdairGreen27 (talk) 11:52, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
      ]
    I do not think what you said reflects reality of the situation. Books by respected members of academic comunity (like Colic, Dedijer) that mention the knife hardly amount to "total lack" of reliable sources. Moreover, the fact that article was deleted once bears no weight on current discussion, since the issue has been fixed since, and previous deletion proposal has failed. It seems to me, rather, that the article was proposed for deletion for purely political reasons, i.e. to serve the POV of those who deny the atrocious use of this knife in the Jasenovac death camp despite the references provided (that were at some point even removed from the article before deletion proposal). Joka (talk) 18:21, 20 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Delete per above reasons. Ironholds 13:08, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment. I am not ready to vote one way or another yet, but I find the above discussion about sources fairly confusing. The current version of the article lists three sources and none of them, as far as I can tell, appear to correspond the two sources mentioned in the nom. The first source in the current version is a mention in the "The Library of Congress World War II Companion" by David M. Kennedy, Margaret E. Wagner, Linda Barrett Osborne, Susan Reyburn. I looked it up on googlebooks and a preview of the page in question is available there:[39]. The second source listed is some book called "The Yugoslav Auschwitz and the Vatican". There is no preview available on googlebooks, so someone would have to actually find the book and try to verify if the reference is correct, but at least the book itself appears to be legit; here is a googlebooks listing:[40] and here is one from Amazon:[41]. The third source listed is: "Takozvana NDH, dr Mladen Colic, Deltapres, Beograd 1973". Seems to be some book from pre-civil war Yugoslavia. I did find another mention via googlebooks:[42] in a book by Christopher S. Stewart called "Hunting the Tiger: The Fast Life and Violent Death of the Balkans' Most Dangerous Man". The relevant quote from there is:"One of the more sadistic guards, according to local legend, invented a knife called the Srbosjek, or Serb-cutter, which was basically a small, curved blade attached to a leather, open-fingered glove, meant for rapid slaughter". I'm a bit concerned by the "local legend" part, but the source itself is legit. Nsk92 (talk) 13:57, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • It is theoretically possible such a thing existed, and there is no question as to the existence of the legend (or myth, as I stated above), but to write up an article about an alleged knife is not encyclopedia material. One should keep in mind that this is a touchy subject, and that the motivation behind the rather clever ploy is most likely political and/or ethnic provocation. --
        TALK) 14:22, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
        ]
    • Delete because article is writen against wikipedia
      reliable sources rules and because of recreation of deleted article. One of Wikipedia:Criteria for speedy deletion is Recreation of deleted material and because article has been deleted in January 2007 [43] situation is clear.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Rjecina (talk • contribs
      )
    The article does not fall under "recreation of a deleted article" policy, because, per wikipedia rules, the article that has a problem fixed does not fall under this, moreover, second deletion proposal failed. As for reliability of the sources, much has been said about this and some of the removed refereces have been put back in. To say the least, the very wikipedia rules are against deletion of material that has scholarly sources such as those that are now provided, so what you said has been refuted and even the person who proposed deletion has honourably admitted that and retracted his vote. Joka (talk) 18:21, 20 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    --J. A. Comment (talk) 21:45, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Please take note of the previous deletion discussion. The sources (that misteriously are missing in the present version) were given prety convincingly there, together with text from google books. I dont have much time now, but I will certainly return later today - my suspicion is that there is something fishy with nomination here - where are books by Nikola Nikolic, Vladimir Dedijer, ICTY proceedings etc. Terse (talk) 11:37, 16 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Also note that the person who nominated the article first time (it was deleted despite the majority KEEP votes) agreed to the references given second time, and didnt dispute the article subject existence. So according to wikipedia policies, that it was deleted once bears no weight here, as the concern was fixed; the article exists on wikipedia for something like 5 years now. Terse (talk) 11:41, 16 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment Here is a part from the second nomination discussion that contains links to google book quotations, proving that books mention the knife, so I suspect that (since references were since removed) either nominator was unaware of them, or that part claiming that sources are false is simply not true.

    "The new article has scholarly references provided, and external links are added to ICTY trial in which this specific knife, used by Pavelic government in NDH, was called Srbosjek, as well as the dr Bulajic, president of the genocide research foundation in Belgrade and one of the most quoted authorities on Jasenovac genocide referring to this curved blade, used at Jasenovac, as "srbosjek".

    As seen in the previous vote (majority votes was keep), local people are quite aware of the existence of the srbosjek knife, which was one of the most memorable exibits in Jasenovac museum most school people visited on excursions in the 80s. The scholarly references include book by dr Nikola Nikolic, holocaust survivor from Jasenovac, a Croat and medical doctor - his book is from 1948, in book by respected historian dr Mladen Colic (his full name is Mladenko Colic, he is one of the foremost authorities about ustasha military, a titoist, works at Belgrade Vojnoistorijski institut, and his book is often used in academic teaching at Zagreb university) from 1973, and in book by Vladimir Dedijer from 1986 or so. There are also some mentions in the english books by foreign (out of ex-yu) authors in the 80s. In the books I mentioned, the curved knife is described, as well as its origin, Vladimir Dedijer mentiones one being captured by the partisans. He also includes the account of 50 killing methods by Nikola Nikolic in his book. The knife was an exponate at Zagreb city museum, and the photo of the knife was one of the most memorable museum exibits in the Jasenovac museum in 80s and Titoist era. The knife is widely known as srbosjek (the name is used at ICTY, in press in 90s, it was translated to english as cutthroat or something like that).


    For your convenience, I here list the books:

    • Jasenovački logor smrti - dr Nikola Nikolić, 1948
    • TAKOZVANA NEZAVISNA DRŽAVA HRVATSKA, dr Mladen Colic, Deltapres, Beograd 1973,
    • Vatikan i Jasenovac, Vladimir Dedijer, Dokumenti (Beograd: “Rad”, 1987)

    the last book is also translated to English

    Here is the part of the last book, which mentions the knife, and is in the part of the book scanned by google, so you can easily look it up: [[52]] In English, there is a book by Howard Blum, Published in 1977 by Quadrangle/New York Times Book Co. ISBN 0812906071, which also mentiones the knife, and the part that mentiones it is also available from google books [[53]]

    Part of book by Nikola Nikolic are available online at jasenovac-info site. For instance http://www.jasenovac-info.com/cd/biblioteka/vecni_pomen/atanasije_en.html Notice the word "cutthroats" there. More parts of the book might be available online in Serbo-Croatian if you google it.

    Finally, the photo and the sketch are available online from archive of Republika Srpska official site (most exibits from the old jasenovac museum were removed to Republika Srpska during the 90s wars)

    http://www.arhivrs.org/jasenovac6.asp

    the last two pictures of the srbosjek (exibit at Jasenovac museum, which I remember personally seing some 20 years ago, and also the sketch of the srbosjek knife).

    You can notice that on the sketch, there is a writting "Grawiso" on the knife. The knife was produced by Solingen factory, which exist even today [[54]], and produces various knives.

    Here is a more extensive part of the book by Howard Blum:

    http://www.jasenovac-info.com/cd/biblioteka/pavelicpapers/artukovic/aa0006.html

    Also check out this discussion from the Serbian wikipedia: [[55]]" —Preceding unsigned comment added by Terse (talk • contribs) 11:47, 16 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    1) The website presented by User:Terse is using data from the profoundly biased "Jasenovac research institute" [56], a Serbian organization who's goal is, quote: "To mobilize the Serbian people, and all progressive political forces worldwide, in a political struggle to end the war currently being waged against the Serbs" [57], hardly NPOV.
    2) The second source is a state archive of a Serbian political entity held guilty of genocide by the UN, namely the
    guerrilla war taking place, we can understand the audacity of that claim. On the other hand the USHMM and the Jewish Virtual Library came up with a figure of circa 100,000 [59], while the highest international number of Jasenovac victims is claimed by the Yad Vashem center (600,000) [60]
    . This lengthy explanation was necessary for the clarification of the reliability and verifiability of this state's official stance.
    3) As for Bulajić, outrageous claims like this are hardly new for him. As was mentioned earlier, he is the author of a genocide denial "theory" concerning the Serbian massacre of Srebrenica [61].--Rjecina (talk) 16:24, 17 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Strong Keep There is a major difference between not wanting an article to exist because of the allegations of how the item was used, and because the item didn't exist. This item existed. The allegations of when and where it was used are portions of a very sad and disturbing part of the history of a region. Some of the allegations are more "proven" than others. I believe the article needs to stay, but in a more NPOV format. The entire article reads like an accusation. There are ways of phrasing this that meet NPOV. I am truly sorry that atrocities happened between ethnic groups, but hiding them does not help anyone heal.
      (drive) 12:39, 16 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
      ]
    Just to make a few things clear: My post QUOTED part of discussion from previous (unsucessful) deletion nomination, where the name srbosjek as well as references were discussed at length, and it was hence not mine original post.
    Secondly, references there are NOT serbian wikipedia discussion, but a couple of books, one of which (by Dedijer) is still in the article (the serbian original clearly avaiable from google books quote speaks of this item), the english book. Other BOOKS (by Nikola Nikolic most notably, a Croatian doctor who spent time in Jasenovac I think), were removed from source list. This nomination is hence dubious, and to say the least there is a misrepresentation of references, which conclusively are proved (by google book quotation that can be clicked) to talk about this knife. Terse (talk) 13:14, 16 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Please provide a link to a scholarly source proving the existence of this thing, if it is not that much of a problem. --
    TALK) 18:44, 16 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
    ]
    You keep repeating that there are no reliable sources. That is conclusively proved to be wrong, as books by Dedijer etc contain info about the knife, evident from given google book quotations. That you dislike Dedijer and other does not mean they are unreliable, as there are objective wikipedia rules of what constitutes a respectable source; Mladenko Colic is a university level expert in Ustasha military, another source that meets wikipedia criteria, and so are other outhors. You may claim that they are biased, though sources are varied, but you have no right to claim that they do not give a verifiable and reliable source info on the knife per wikipedia rules. You might as well deny holocaust based on claim that Jewish sources are unreliable, and you would probably be laughed off. University professors certainly meet the scholarly level requirement not met by many other articles that still merit a place here, and this important topic has scholarly, eyewitness, various nationalities etc. sources that prove the knife existence and use in Jasenovac. Joka (talk) 10:26, 18 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
          • CommentThere is few question about this.1) Date when knife is designed 2)Start and end of production of this knife ? 3) Today name of Gebrüder Gräfrath . Today situation of article is that we do not know when of by who knife is produced ?
          • In May 2008 I have asked for NPOV internet link about this but nothing has happened but during first discussion which has ended with deleting 2 users has claimed that picture of this knife is in
            USHMM. This has been false claim or USHMM has been victim of fraud (because latter USHMM has destroyed picture)?? If somebody can find this picture on USHMM site I will change my vote --Rjecina (talk) 16:08, 17 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
            ]
    Your qualifications are, to say the least, wrong. Sources are from respected historians, university professors, books used in academia even in Zagreb [62], and are "verifiable" as any book can be. It is not task of wikipedia editors to determine weather they are right or not, as you seem to think, this is OR, but only to check what sources contain (and they clearly speak of such a knife, proved here by google book quotations among other things), and that they meet certain objective standard - being widely accepted in academia (like Colic book), by respected members of academia, should suffice, even if you think authors are somehow biased, the topic merits an article, and POV issues are to be adressed there. You cannot just delete article since you personally dislike or distrust a source, that is otherwise a professor who held chairs say in UK and USA, as Dedijer, or a foremost expert in Ustasha military whose books are used at Zagreb University [63], as Colic. Joka (talk) 10:59, 18 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    What do you base your claim that sources given are "unreliable sources and blatantly false and abusing"? Are history university professors in USA and UK unreliable? Check
    Zagreb University as suggested literature for postgraduate research - i.e. Croatian academia clearly thinks him a scholarly source - see Deletion 2 discussion for much more details proving you wrong. Joka (talk) 10:34, 18 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
    ]
    It seems to me that you are deliberately repeating your false claims, despite all the evidence given, for rethorical effect. How are the sources "unverifiable" when they are from books available in many libraries, with even parts of them on google books proving conclusively they speak on the topic and mention the knife and its use in Jasenovac? How are they "false", or unreliable, when their authors are well respected members of the academic community? If you keep repeating these accusations I will begin to think that what you are doing is in bad faith, as you are ignoring the overhelming evidenca that 1. books contain information about the knife and its use in jasenovac 2. books are sources accepted in scholarly discourse (Colic's book used in Zagreb as suggested literature [64], see deletion proposal 2 for more details and links). Joka (talk) 11:23, 18 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Strong keep The users that push for article deletion are in fact misrepresenting the case of "unverifiable" sources, while it has been pointed out, by various users, that books in question do contain information about the knife and its use in Jasenovac. This has been proved by google books links that anyone can check. Moreover, references of scholarly work (by Colic, Dedijer and various english speaking authors), books by eyewitnesses (Nikola Nikolic book from 1948, a Croatian doctor held in Jasenovac - one of the many sources removed by Croatians who try to push POV of denying atrocities in Jasenovac) are said to be "unverifiable" - a gross misrepresentation. The authors are not even Serbian in some cases, and to deny credibility of old (Yugoslav era) witnesses acount is tantamount to denying holocaust by denying credibility of Jewish victims, saying "they are Jews, so they must be lying" - thats exactly what goes on here. Note that references predate the 90s war era by far. The existence of object in question (unfortunately, it is far from a legend, but even a significant legend merits an article), on which many BOOKS by authors scholarly or eyewitness speak, as well as second hand accounts by English speaking authors, certainly prove that this is not an invented topic. Even if one takes POV of denying the existence of the knife, by wikipedia rules, the article ought to exist as reliable sources (university professor books, like that of Mladenko Colic or highly respected (in western circles) Vladimir Dedijer - are per wikipedia rules reliable sources) speak of it. Wikipedia is not aimed at determining the truth - it is OR, and has some objective standards what is reliable source, and books by Dedijer (held university professor chairs in Yugoslavia, UK and USA!!!) etc certainly meet those. Joka (talk) 10:26, 18 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment To all those who claim that sources from such authors as Mladenko Colic or Vladimir Dedijer, both university professors, are unreliable, i suggest they read
      WP:RS. Moreover, Mladenko Colic's book (JSTOR review [65], the book is used even in Zagreb [66], today, at Croatia's biggest university so the book is clearly widely accepted (clearly, even by Croatian scholars) in academic discourse, which indeed is not surprising, as Colic was a leading expert in Ustasha military). Vladimir Dedijer was a figure of highest format, history professor in UK and USA (and Yugoslavia), member of Russell Tribunal, certainly a relevant source. The Jasenovac museum from SFRY era, that had srbosjek photo as one of the exibits, clearly is also a relevant source, and so per wikipedia rules, the sources given are neither fringe nor unreliable, as some users are trying to agressively assert in their POV. One cannot deny the ugly truth of henious Ustasha atrocities just by erasing articles that are supported by accounts that meet the standards wikipedia set forth. Joka (talk) 10:51, 18 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
      ]
    • Strong keep - at least two Western authors mention the srbosjek - Wagner et al. and Christopher S. Stewart, not to mention a variety of sources from the former Yugoslavia. Even the US Holocaust museum acknowledges its existence. So it's clearly verifiable, and notable in that it was an important tool of the Serbian genocide in WWII. And even if it didn't exist, the legend would still be notable: just as the Nazis didn't actually make lampshades out of human skin but we still mention it in anthropodermic bibliopegy, so too should we give place to this story (which happens to be true, increasing its encyclopedic value). Biruitorul Talk 16:07, 18 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment I have writen earlier give me link to USHMM on page which is speaking about knife (or to picture) and I will change my vote. Please do not write false statements--Rjecina (talk) 14:42, 19 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment and request. This discussion is a strong example of Wikipedia's main weaknesses. Lots of SPA comments/"votes" from people who have not edited the encyclopedia since the last time this article was up for deletion. Yet here they come, voices raised, that it should be kept. Check them out for yourselves. And all of the references they claim in support of their case are entirely unverifiable. I challenge them all to photocopy a single page of the books they claim as references, and upload the photocopy to Commons. Then post the link here within 48 hours. Go on then. Do it. AlasdairGreen27 (talk) 00:28, 19 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    I am the one who recreated the article and added the references last year, and I was appaled to find out it was up for deletion again. I think arguments are what matter here, and I find dismissal of editors like that a bit offensive. As for your request, fortunately, google books has sometimes parts of books scanned and so you can for example instantly check that book by Vladimir Dedijer contains info on the knife [67]. Also, it is evident that Jasenovac museum had as an exibit photo and sketch of the knife (see link from the main page to photos; the site is part of UNESCO archive) - as many of the people from ex-Yugoslavia who visited Jasenovac on school excursions in the 80s vividly remember. I urge you to rethink your vote in light of the evidence, as DIREKTOR already did. Joka (talk) 03:07, 19 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Similar my earlier comment please do not write false statements. Jasenovac museum is in Croatia and not in Republika Srpska which is not known for NPOV policy about Serbs and other nations. If knife is real why has USHMM deleted picture and all comments about knife (if this has ever been on USHMM site)
    If Dedijer is good source why his book is published outside Jugoslavija by publishers which are publishing intolerant and aggressive nonsense and person which buy this book are buying books:
    To Kill a Nation: The Attack on Yugoslavia by Michael Parenti, Fools' Crusade: Yugoslavia, Nato, and Western Delusions by Diana Johnstone and Jasenovac and the Holocaust in Yugoslavia by Barry M. Lituchy. Because of all this reason book can't be accepted on wiki.
    It is funny that user come back to wikipedia only to enter deleting discussion. Your only edits are things about Serbs and war so it is not surprise that your last edit has been defeated by RFC--Rjecina (talk) 14:42, 19 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Ad hominem attacks by Rjecina (who seems to be chasing quite a few editors who he is engaged in edit wars with) aside, just a few points about this. Jasenovac museum has been devastated by Croatian forces in 1991-95, and most exibition items have been moved to Republika Srpska before the 1995 Bljesak operation in Western Slavonia. Some of the material from Jasenovac museum, exibits available in SFRY there (srbosjek photo has been one of the more memorable items, a couple of editors pointed out this fact that they remember it from the exibition in the 80s, see previous AfD discussions) is posted on the RS archive page for that reason. From RS, some materials have been given to Holocaust museum in Washington, and has controversialy been returned to Croatia recently [68], causing controversy in RS [69]- the museum in Jasenovac itself has been closed in the 90s and was reopened recently. The new exibition is understating extent of the atrocities and has been much criticised for the fact that, among other things, killing items (srbosjek, malj - mullet etc) are not part of it

    [70]. The photo in question is indeed part of the original Jasenovac exibition (from the time of SFRY). Croatian policies in regard to Jasenovac included such scandalous proposals as that of Franjo Tudjman to burry ustashe next to their victims [71] (quote "hteo je da miri antifašiste sa fašistima tako što bi im kosti pomešao u mikseru i sahranio u Jasenovcu"), and hence this is hardly a surprise, but the photo is part of the original Jasenovac exibition. As for Dedijer's book, original (in Serbian) is published by Deltapress from Belgrade, and what Rjecina is talking about is the publisher of one of the TRANSLATIONS (the book has been translated to several languages), and bears no weight on the original book merits, or indeed to credibility of Vladimir Dedijer. Joka (talk) 17:58, 20 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    • Comment. I've read a little discussion among the weapon collectors about this knife. The knifes attached to the gloves were also found after WWI, sporadically, elsewhere in Europe, used in the trench combats by the individuals, always handmade. If I've understood well there was a "srbosjek" photo as one of the exhibits in Jasenovac museum!? There was no knife, there was a photo!!! Of a knife attached to a glove. If it was produced in Germany for killings in Jasenovac, wouldn't it be logically to expect some number of it found there. In Auschwitz, the Jews were killed by a gas, Cyclone G, blue crystal lumps which produced a poison gas in contact with oxygen. In 1945 a lot of these crystals were found there and now you can see it among other exhibits in the Auschwitz museum.
    Many people who are voting here doesn't know or doesn't want to know what was post WWII atmosphere in communist Yugoslavia, which is very important for this discussion.
    Although the antifascist partisan movement was started in Croatia and then rapidly spread to all region, there was also NDH - Nazi puppet Croatian state. The largest part of the Croats in the NDH territory didn't perceive it as Nazi in the beginning, since NDH gave them opportunity to live out of Yugoslavia, people were afraid of possible communist totalitarism, so called "the dictatorship of proletariat", which meant losing of their properties and ruling of the class of the workers and peasants. For the same reason the Serbs were massively mobilized to Chetnik forces, a royal Serb army, which collaborated with Nazis until 1943/44. They were largely indoctrinated by "Greater Serbia" ideas and there was a lot of the war crime committed by them in Bosnia and Herzegovina, by killing and torturing the non-Serbs, the Croats and the Bosniaks. In the same time the Croats mobilized in the NDH Ustashe committed a lot of war crime in Croatia by killing and torturing people from the "lower races", the Romes and the Jews (Nazi indoctrination) and the Serbs (revenge for Bosnia - people usually forget that there was a huge portion of the Bosniaks-Muslims mobilized in Ustashe, not only the Croats!). In 1943, after German loss in Russia, the Chetniks were massively changing their uniforms for the partisan ones, so in 1945 it appeared that almost all Serbs were the antifascists and not pro-Nazi Chetniks. In the same time Croatia was heavily bipolarized between the anti-fascist supporters and the anti-communist supporters. However probably the most part of the civil population in Croatia, not directly involved in the war, was more neutral and rather against the both ideologies. The Croats were massively escaping to the west in time period 1945-48 because of the massive communist persecutions of the Croats. In this period the partisan forces transformed into Yugoslav army massively persecuted the Croats and committed a lot of the "war" crime (war already ended). For example, in Zagreb, the capital of Croatia, there are a lot of the mass graves with the Croatian civils (the mostly civils, per some evaluations a few tens of the thousands) killed by the Serbian partisan battalions (ex-Chetniks) - they victoriously entered in Zagreb in 1945 and obviously revenged for the Ustashe crimes. So, although the anti-fascist movement was started in Croatia in 1941, in 1945 the half of the Croats were treated as the losers in the war. All Ustashe crimes were proccesed in the post-war Yugoslavia, while none of the partisan and the Chetnik ones. What's more, there was widely spread anti-Croat atmosphere pumped up in Serbia and by the Serbs, also the communist authorities created a huge political machinery and secret police agencies (OZNA) to secure their ruling position, the communist success was glorified to the stars, while Ustashe were the main monsters in the whole story, it all reached mythical heights. On every corner there was "Tito, partija, demokracija" (partija referring to the Yugoslav communist party), but no real democracy at all. The Croats were once again massively persecuted in 1971, since Croatian politicians and students supported democratic political system instead of one-party communist totalitarian system.
    Serbian nationalists were taking advantage of their position in Yu society and exaggerated many numbers like the victims in Jasenovac. They claimed (and still claim!) that there was 1.000.000 of murdered Serbs, while in the official lists there were max 40-50.000 of the Serbs, Jews, Romes and Croats. "Srbosjek" is just a part of this propaganda story. It's possible that such knife was really found in Jasenovac, but there are no real evidences that it was called "srbosjek", that it was serially produced etc... It's all in the air, nothing really materially. If it really existed it was more likely a handmade tool used by some monster, maybe even nicknamed "srbosjek", who knows, lately utilized by OZNA agents for creating propagandistic platform. An atmosphere of fear is always easier to maintain if there is some materialization of it and a knife that killed thousands of people is perfect materialization for such purpose.
    All discussions like this one should be placed into the proper period of time and relating occasions and this one case smells too much like propaganda. I mean there is not even one piece of it, just a photo and a story, the same in the sources as in this article? And 1.000.000 Serbs was killed in Jasenovac by that knife? Or by a photo? How many people can one monster kill using a knife in one day? How many such monsters must do it every day? How many knives is needed for doing it? How many knives was found? Just a photo? So 1.000.000 Serbs were killed by a photo? Are we all crazy here? Zenanarh (talk) 15:03, 20 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Coming from Croatia, your POV is somewhat understandable, but bear in mind that while you might personaly have an opinion about this knife and its use or even existence, wikipedia editors are not supposed to be the judges what is the truth (that would be OR and obviously could create many problems and many edit wars on controversial issues), but to REPORT in NPOV way on what has been said by relevant sources. Therefore, as scholarly sources that mention the knife and its use in Jasenovac have been established beyond reasonable doubt, so much that even the person who proposed deletion here admited that and retracted his vote, there is little choice but to follow wikipedia rules, that do not allow deletion of sourced material about items that clearly are documented just because some editors do not like it. Joka (talk) 17:58, 20 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    I'm coming from the planet Earth. I believe my comment was pretty NPOV. There are no the good and the bad guys in my comment. Just political and social environment of that moment. Problem is that you're talking about the "reliable" and the "scholar" sources, but possibly written by highly indoctrinated authors for particular purpose. Zenanarh (talk) 19:34, 20 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Of course, scholarly authors in history are not free from bias, and wikipedia editors have their own POV, influenced by many things, origin not being the least in these matters. Indoctrination goes many ways indeed. However, what matters here are wikipedia criteria, and the POV issues are dealt with according to standard policies, and deletion is not the way to go. As for what you say, please look at the sources and note that they are varied ideologically, and nationally. Nikola Nikolic was a Croatian doctor and eyewitness who was persecuted by comunists. Vladimir Dedijer was a disident (he fell with Djilas), Mladenko Colic a Titoist. So certainly there is no SINGLE pov from which these testemonies are coming from. No one would be taken seriously here in trying to deny facts about Auschwitz based on claim that Jewish sources were biased and Jewish professors indoctrinated, though thats what many holocaust deniers were doing in disputing their claims. Wikipedia is not supposed to side with anyone on do its own research but to report based on sources, which indeed confirm existence of such a knife. Joka (talk) 20:46, 20 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Funny :) Nationalistic SPA account is speaking about bias ond POV--Rjecina (talk) 21:22, 20 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Serbian mythomania? Nikola Nikolic was a Croat, medical doctor who was in Jasenovac, and his book (a source cited) gives one of the strongest testemonies about the knife. Other non-Serbian sources are also provided, and Jasenovac museum in the times of SFRY was governed from Zagreb, Croatia, and had srbosjek photo as one of the exibits in weapons used in Jasenovac section. Mladenko Colic's book is used as a recomended book in Zagreb University in Croatia even today. Your claims are unfounded. Joka (talk) 19:16, 20 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Wagner et al. promote "Serbian Ustashi mythomania"? Christopher S. Stewart promotes "Serbian Ustashi mythomania"? The US Holocaust Museum promotes "Serbian Ustashi mythomania"? Let's keep the rhetoric under control. Let's not deny the horror of Jasenovac. Imagine the (rightful) outcry if someone declared the gas chambers to be "Jewish Nazi mythomania"! I see no difference in this sort of Serbian genocide denialism. Biruitorul Talk 19:23, 20 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    I never stated that any of them "promote it", as you deviously impute it to my behalf, nor was denying the horror of Jasenovac itself, but was referring to the article itself, namely the legend of srbosjek which has absolutely zero (0) firm supportive evidence, and a plenty of highly disputed and dubious ones. Your holy Stewart quote has in itself "..according to local legend.." which you can translate plainly as: "according to the myths promoted by Ustashi-obsessed Serbian historiographers". It wouldn't be the first nor the last Westerner that has fallen for 200-years perfected Serbian mythomania. Moreover, being a "Western source" makes him even less credible (with respect to this particular matter, not generally) since he's just translating some second-hand source. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 20:12, 20 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    0 evidence? Other than documented eyewitness reports (by Nikola Nikolic, Croatian doctor etc), scholarly work (Dedijer, Colic), exibits from Jasenovac museum; maybe you would like to propose to erase article Jesus Christ claiming that there is 0 firm evidence that he ever existed, and disregard the works of historians and scholars who had published works claiming that Christ was a historic figure, disqualifying their research as Christian mythomania, disregarding the fact that they are not even all Christians. Joka (talk) 20:46, 20 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    My earlier comments have been show me USHMM Srbosjek internet link and I will change my vote. Now I will say show me link towards any respected Holocaust international institution which is speaking about Srbosjek and I will change my vote. If not 1 Holocaust international institution is not having Srbosjek and if Britannica is not having Srbosjek there are only 2 solutions: Srbosjek is myth or everybody is POV about Serbian victims.--Rjecina (talk) 21:22, 20 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]


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    The result was no consensus to delete. Sole delete preference was

    WP:PERNOM and is discounted. Editors interested in reaching consensus on merging the article are invited to do so on the relevant talkpage. Non-admin closure by Skomorokh 01:17, 24 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
    ]

    Silesian alphabet

    Silesian alphabet (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD
    )

    There's nothing like 'one Silesian alphabet" - the language is codificated in 10 different ways, besides the article does not cite any resources since September 2007. It's not neutral showing three codifications (I know only the first one, I haven't even seen the rest of them although my Silesian is pretty good and I often read the Silesian web pages. I think each major codification should be described alone. Timpul my talk 10:37, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Ok, I've added tags for WikiProject Linguistics, and put a language writing system stub template on the article. Hopefully that will help it grow. Xymmax So let it be written So let it be done 13:10, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]


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    The result was delete - Nabla (talk) 00:01, 22 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Mixtape Metro

    Mixtape Metro (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

    Seemingly

    non-notable group. Prod removed by anon with message that group is notable "because of the regular rodio play it recieves and it's affiliation with other notable bands (namely Superchick). However i respectfully suggest that neither are enough per WP:MUSIC, the radio play being a single station and the "affiliation" with Superchick being limited to "a sweeping endorsement". tomasz. 10:27, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
    ]

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    The result was keep per

    WP:PROBLEMS. There is unanimity amongst the remainder of respondents that coverage of the topic in reliable sources is sufficient for the Heymann Standard. Non-admin closure by Skomorokh 01:28, 24 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
    ]

    Sophie conran

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    )

    I removed a speedy from this page as the article does assert notability. However I'm not sure if she is notable enough to warrent an article Theresa Knott | The otter sank 10:28, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    I'm over the moon she collaberated with her brother. The only potentially notable bit is having written ( well, possibly written ) a cookbook, with a nice advert for that. The rest of it is a MySpace CV... with notability assumed to have passed from parental DNA. Given it was created by someone purported to be the subject, it's nothing more than an advert/blog/resume... Minkythecat (talk) 10:40, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]


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    The result was delete. Fabrictramp | talk to me 13:53, 23 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Winning Edge

    Winning Edge (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

    This is an article regarding a website which is relatively not significant. The edits seem to be made by the owner/officer of the corporation.

    talk) 10:29, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
    ]


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    The result was Delete --JForget 23:26, 17 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Cryme Tyme Cenation

    talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD
    )

    The is most definately a non-notable wrestling stable. --

    T.C.
    10:23, 15 July 2008 (UTC) I know this is odd, since I nominated the article for deletion, but I have a better idea. Why not just merge this article with
    T.C. 21:26, 16 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
    ]


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    The result was delete per

    WP:CSD#G4. –LAX 11:03, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
    ]

    Jack Korpela

    AfDs for this article:
    Jack Korpela (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

    It's Just a copy of the other article that got deleted Adster95 (talk) 10:02, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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    The result was delete. Fabrictramp | talk to me 13:54, 23 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    REEB

    REEB (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

    A research project. Not much clue to who is running it or where. And absolutely no evidence of notability. — RHaworth (Talk | contribs) 09:48, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]


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    The result was keep. John254 00:41, 20 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    List of fictional vehicles

    List of fictional vehicles (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

    Unreferenced list with no clearly defined criteria for inclusion. What makes a vehicle fictional? Ecto-1 from Ghostbusters is listed, but that is basically a Caddilac hearse, so what makes it fictional? -- JediLofty UserTalk 09:45, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    • STRONG OPPOSE - First, it's not a Cadillac hearse. It's a Cadillac ambulance. Second, the customization of that 1959 Cadillac Ambulance is strictly for the movie. The deletion tag should be removed! ----DanTD (talk) 10:32, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      Comment - The Ghostbusters article says the vehicle is a hearse , but in any case that is irrelevant, as I only used Ecto-1 as an example of a vehicle which is not fictional, but is merely a customised, real world vehicle. Lists need to have clearly defined criteria for inclusion, which this list doesn't have. The deletion tag must remain until consensus is achieved here. -- JediLofty UserTalk 11:04, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      Reply - It's a combination car, which means it could be either one. Nevertheless, the car was strictly customized for the movie, and there are plenty of others like it on the list. Those that aren't customized are strongly associated with the movies, television shows, and other works of fiction they appear in. Therefore the list should be kept. This sounds too much like yet another sabotage mission against articles associated with works of fiction. ----DanTD (talk) 11:38, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    talk) 13:17, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
    ]
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    The result was Speedy delete, Pure vandalism. This includes blatant and obvious misinformation covers it nicely. TCari My travels 13:57, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Shane Jalkson and the Molexes

    Shane Jalkson and the Molexes (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

    This has been here more than a year, but it's a

    HOAX. Congratulations to BNutzer
    for spotting and tagging it. Evidence:

    • The article claims that Jimmy Page was a member of this band before leaving to join Led Zeppelin, but his article says he was with the Yardbirds.
    • Ditto for Angus Young and AC/DC; his article says he was with Kantuckee.
    • A Google search turns up references on sites like Lyricsmania.com and lyricsandsongs.com, but I suspect anyone can post on those sites. When you follow the references through, all they lead to is the lyrics of a single song called "Fuck the trees".
    • In particular, there is no mention anywhere of an album, although the article claims that "the album" (unnamed) "went quadruple platinum (that's four million copies sold)".

    The author

    Sdjalk87 (talk · contribs) has no constructive edits, and no edits since this article. In the article history one can see that anonymous IPs have twice replaced the article with "This article is fake, it shouldn't even be on Wikipedia" or words to that effect, but have been reverted. I think they were right. Delete. JohnCD (talk) 09:27, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
    ]


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    The result was Speedy delete as vandalism (deliberate hoax).

    talk) 14:37, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
    ]

    Philippine supermodel search

    Philippine supermodel search (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

    Revived

    hoax article of Philippines' Next Top Model, Cycle 2, only this time written under a different title. Starczamora (talk) 07:59, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
    ]

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    The result was delete. Fabrictramp | talk to me 13:57, 23 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Dark Wax Radio

    Dark Wax Radio (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

    orphaned article which does not establish the notability of the topic. No 3rd party references. Rtphokie (talk) 02:32, 8 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    • Comment: Before closing this AfD, please note that the link to this discussion from the article itself was broken until I fixed just a few minutes ago so editors that might have wanted to join the discussion were prevented from doing so. Personally I think this article has little chance of surviving, given the lack or references, but it would be bad form to exclude so many from the discussion for such a trivial reason, just in case. - Dravecky (talk) 15:33, 14 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so that consensus may be reached.
    Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Bduke (talk) 07:52, 15 July 2008 (UTC) --Bduke (talk) 07:52, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]


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    The result was No consensus. Ty 23:15, 20 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    New Epoch Notation Painting

    New Epoch Notation Painting (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD
    )

    Notability issues for over a year. So listed DimaG (talk) 19:35, 1 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so that consensus may be reached.
    Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Fabrictramp | talk to me 01:27, 8 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so that consensus may be reached.
    Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Bduke (talk) 07:47, 15 July 2008 (UTC) --Bduke (talk) 07:45, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    The Age archive is theoretically searchable to 1990 (http://newsstore.theage.com.au/ ), although you do need to pay, but the results of a search on references from the article do not reassure me... (nor do the comments below)
    1. The art of painting in numbers, The Age 25 May 1991
    • No reference found.
    2. Heathcote, Christopher Dr. Harking back to Romantic spirit, The Age, 6 August 1993
    • Abstract: David Strachan, 1919-1970 (Ballarat Fine Art Gallery, until 5 September); Peter Graham: Central Australia, 1954-56 (Lyttleton Gallery, until 21 August). THE ROMANTIC SPIRIT has been passing through a bad spell in recent years. Contemporary artists have begun to realise how flexible the term i The Age 05/08/1993 Cost - $2.20 984 words
    I would suggest to
    木 13:42, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
    ]
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    The result was delete. Fabrictramp | talk to me 14:04, 23 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Nanda Kishore Samal

    Nanda Kishore Samal (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

    Non-notable. <humour> Is the height of the template messages an indication of it's lack of suitability for inclusion in WP?</humour> -- Alan Liefting (talk) - 07:21, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]


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    The result was Delete. If he is elected in 2010, a new article can be written then but at this point he doesn't appear to be over the bar of

    WP:BIO#Politicians. Sarah 02:04, 22 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
    ]

    George Colbran

    George Colbran (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

    Failed election candidate with no other notability. It had a prod template which was removed, with the editor citing "his business and how powerful he is". Owning a business in

    Townsville doesn't establish notability as far as I'm concerned Frickeg (talk) 06:46, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
    ]

    If that were true then we'd have kept Corey Delaney/Worthington, but we didn't. Also, other failed candidates also have news articles, as they were just that, election candidates, but they're now failed candidates. They still have news articles don't they? The presence of news articles does not establish noteability. Timeshift (talk) 20:44, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    I am not sure we should the fate of this article based on previous similar articles - that is against
    talk) 13:43, 16 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
    ]
    Please don't twist what is said. My point is that news articles in themselves do not establish noteability and gave an example. Timeshift (talk) 20:36, 16 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    *Strong Keep 23rd most powerful Townsville person (excluding parliamentarians and media personalities). Andrew Lau II (talk) 07:08, 20 July 2008 (UTC) blocked vandal WWGB (talk) 14:24, 20 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    • Give your POV a rest Timeshift....he is a very well known businessman here in a City of nearly 200,000...plus he is involved in many other things (that need to be added on his page) he owns 9 restaurants, raised the money to build Ronald McDonald House, is one of the Management Committee for the NQ Cowboys....need I go on....and you say he is not notable, look at this guy David Carmichael he is just a chef with a few restaurants and yet he is notable, anyone can see that this page should be kept but re-writen to add ALL of his info.Thuringowacityrep (talk) 09:41, 20 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Not POV, simple fact. And just because one page exists but shouldnt, doesn't give precedent for just as other non noteworthy pages. Don't worry, we're right, it's a textbook case, and it's only a matter of time before this article is gone. Timeshift (talk) 15:33, 20 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Delete - failed political candidate with only local notability. Biruitorul Talk 20:11, 20 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Have the people that said that George in NOT notable read the Additional criteria part of the Wikipedia:Notability (people) page ......it clearly states A person is generally notable if they meet any of the following standards. Failure to meet these criteria is not conclusive proof that a subject should not be included part of these standards are Any biography, The person has received a notable award or honor, or has been often nominated for them. Also The person has made a widely recognized contribution that is part of the enduring historical record in his or her specific field, And being an elected local official, or an unelected candidate for political office can still be notable if they meet the primary notability criterion of "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject...need i say more, he is notable...have a read of this page Wikipedia:Notability (people) and you will all see that this page can stay.Thuringowacityrep (talk) 03:48, 21 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Which he doesn't meet. I also take note that the article's creator has just noted here that they have no problems with the article's deletion. Timeshift (talk) 10:27, 21 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    The sooner you stop thinking people have something against him, the better. I've come across many AfDs like this before, it's a textbook delete, you just have invested emotions in the article. I don't. That's why i'm a Labor voter and want this page gone - HE IS NOT NOTEWORTHY! But as i've already said, don't worry, this will all be over soon enough, with the page deleted. Timeshift (talk) 01:15, 22 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • I'm sorry that you vote that way, and that is your choice...but because you "WANT THE PAGE GONE" is not a valid reason to delete it, and who are you to say I have envested emotions in the article....bullshit.... I'm just sick of editors like you that have to delete notable page like this one because of your political preference....I don't care that he ran in some stupid election, I want the page kept as do others because of what he has done for the area, the awards and honor's he has received plus the success of his business.Thuringowacityrep (talk) 01:38, 22 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    I don't WANT THE PAGE GONE... I want NON-NOTEABLE TEXTBOOK CASE ARTICLES GONE which has happened for ages on wikipedia, and will continue to happen for ages on wikipedia. This page is just one of many soon to be sucked in to oblivion for clearly being non-noteable. And what political preference? I'd never vote Lib/Nat, Labor always comes first, and regardless I don't let it come in the way of my edits, your attacks on me make no sense. He is non-noteable and will soon be gone. Enjoy. Timeshift (talk) 01:40, 22 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    — 202.168.11.22 (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. WWGB (talk) 12:03, 21 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
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    The result was delete. Fabrictramp | talk to me 14:07, 23 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    The True Patriot

    The True Patriot (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

    Unnotable book; fails

    WP:BK -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 05:59, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
    ]


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    The result was delete. Fabrictramp | talk to me 14:19, 23 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    English Learner's Online Collaborative Dictionary

    AfDs for this article:
    English Learner's Online Collaborative Dictionary (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

    This article should be deleted because:

    1. It lacks notability, see Wikipedia:Notability.

    2. The article was started by someone close to the business, which violates Wikipedia:Conflict of interest.

    talk) 04:43, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
    ]


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    The result was Speedy delete, copyvio. TCari My travels 13:38, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Palisades Federal Credit Union

    Palisades Federal Credit Union (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)
    • Delete nn organisation. None of the article references show notability, and GHits are all self published, press releases, blog entries, and directory entries. Mayalld (talk) 04:45, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Delete Google turns up only company affiliated or non-reliable sources and google news and the google news archives. I think it fails
      talk  05:09, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
      ]


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    The result was Delete --JForget 23:28, 17 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Shit on your neighbor

    Shit on your neighbor (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

    Card game that is close to made up one day. None of the external links work, [158 google hits] none of which appear a reliable source. May be a variant of Sheepshead but I cannot find any reliable sources to make a redirect make sense Peripitus (Talk) 04:21, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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    The result was Delete --JForget 23:29, 17 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Eden (machinima)

    Eden (machinima) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

    Non-notable entry. Cited references are either self-published source or unreliable forums. Delete --PeaceNT (talk) 04:18, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    I've read them both many a time, and they're both wrong. Kurt Weber (Go Colts!) 15:51, 16 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Good to know your opinion on this, but I think we should continue to follow the community-guided policies at
    talk) 16:26, 16 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
    ]
    Why? Do you not realize that these so-called "policies" are in fact merely reflective of what's already going on in the trenches? This means that the proper way of changing them is to do what I'm doing--make my effort in the trenches, and work to get others to do the same. If that happens, then these so-called "policies" will be changed to reflect that, because that's all they are. Kurt Weber (Go Colts!) 17:14, 16 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Yeah. Good luck with that. o_o JuJube (talk) 19:24, 16 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]


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    The result was delete per

    WP:V.  Sandstein  07:24, 24 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
    ]

    Detroit hip hop

    Detroit hip hop (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views
    ) I am challenging this genre as not being valid. If there are no reputable sources to substantiate an article about "Detroit hip hop" then we shouldn't have one. End of story. JBsupreme (talk) 03:44, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]


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    The result was no consensus. RFerreira (talk) 21:10, 21 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Red Sector Incorporated

    Red Sector Incorporated (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

    The creator is

    receiver, archives) 03:37, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
    ]


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    The result was delete. It appears that not enough is known about this period to make such an article

    original research.  Sandstein  06:19, 24 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
    ]

    Unknown ruler of Persia

    Unknown ruler of Persia (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

    The claim of an "unknown ruler" may not hold up. Most of the Net research I've uncovered places the reign of

    talk) 03:34, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
    ]

    Comment on comment Well, this is getting to be the Persian equivalent of
    talk) 12:41, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
    ]
    Comment3. The reign is stated as "c. 80 - 70"; c. stands for circa, or about; it flags that these are approximations and further flags that exact dates are unknown, not that he ruled during that entire period. So, I'll see you one Rashomon and raise you a Kagemusha:-)--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 13:23, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Comment Either that, or substantially rewrite the existing article to cite the rival historic claims to Persian leadership in this period. That would require a sense of
    talk) 19:12, 16 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
    ]
    Comment Is it an issue of rival claims or just not enough evidence? My search suggests the latter. There seems to be nothing stating his date or that of Sanatruces (sp?). A couple of other sources [91] [92] - both look reliable as sources, just not definitive.
    talk) 10:06, 17 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
    ]
    • Delete until facts are confirmed. Editors should follow guidelines on creating articles. You said it Dad (talk) 04:08, 21 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • DElete The evidence for the Unknown ruler seems to be three coins that cannot be attributed to a ruler. They are dated to c.80 BC, but that might be a guess. I would guess is probably better to regard them as of an unidentified ruler (possibly one of whom we know). Alternatively, it might be better to merge the content (basically the reference and a minimum of text) with the article for Orodes or Sanatruces (or both). We are dealing with a remote period, for which historical is thin, so that complete certainty is impossible. Peterkingiron (talk) 21:52, 21 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Delete At first, it simp[y looked to be confusion about the dates involved, but briefly examining just the sources mentioned here, it apparently represents a less than fully understood situation; making my guess based on what I know better (the Roman empire in the West), the underlying reality presumably was that there was no unambiguous chain of succession on an overall basis, and that different people claimed to rule partially overlapping parts of the empire at partially overlapping times. The firmest evidence is the coins, but that can show only who had sufficient power in the place of minting at the time, even when an unambiguous personal name appears. The actual article here is a unsound extrapolation of complicated material, and to call it a particular ruler, even un-named, at particular dates is unwarranted. In cases where there is scholarly consensus on a person referred to by an assumed designation, we can use it, but there's not enough evidence here for that. As the previous comments just above also seem to say, we await the progress of historical scholarship before we can make an article. DGG (talk) 03:57, 23 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]


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    The result was Delete --JForget 23:31, 17 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Specialized_Pitch_Pro

    AfDs for this article:
    Specialized_Pitch_Pro (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

    This page is contains information about a bike that is not historically notable, and does not warrant merit a separate entry. Josephus78 (talk) 03:15, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]


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    The result was Delete - Unanimous vote MINUS the socks --JForget 00:16, 23 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Most Great Name

    Most Great Name (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

    Authors

    WP:OR. MARussellPESE (talk) 03:02, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
    ]

    Additional Criterion Looking at what links to this article, it's certainly
    WP:NN. If there's a place for the material that's actually verifiable to be merged, I'd be happy to see that. MARussellPESE (talk) 22:15, 18 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
    ]
    Delete Does not appear to be referenced or notable. DJ Clayworth (talk) 17:17, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Delete Insufficiently referenced. OhNoitsJamie Talk 20:32, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    This article provides all necessary references. No valid reasons for deletion have been provided. Nur110 (talk) 08:00, 16 July 2008 (UTC) — Nur110 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. * This user is a actually a sock puppet. - MARussellPESE (talk) 21:30, 19 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    'Do Not Delete' I am here to lend my support in keeping this article. The article needs expansion not deletion. Please keep it and provide additional information about the symbol. This is what wikipedia is supposedly here to do is it not? JohnDanielHammond (talk) 09:02, 18 July 2008 (UTC) — JohnDanielHammond (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. * This user is a actually a sock puppet. - MARussellPESE (talk) 21:29, 19 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Do Not Delete: I am a Researcher of Middle Eastern Spirituality. I have read all the cited sources, both the English and non-English sources. They are authentic. Those who wish to delete this article have not done the appropriate research to back up their stance. There is also blatant dishonesty on the part of some editors here, who are deleting the sources, and then claiming that there are no appropriate sources to back up the article. NO ONE should have a monopoly on Wikipedia! The article is a valid and appropriate contribution to the subject matter and the author has done the necessary background research on it. Fatimazuhra786 (talk) 13:01, 18 July 2008 (UTC) — Fatimazuhra786 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. * This user is a legit user. - MARussellPESE (talk) 21:29, 19 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Do Not Delete: I too am a researcher. The article is fine and requires additional information to boost it. There are far worse articles on wikipedia requiring a nomination to delete. Definitely not this one. I vote to keep it. Priestofshangrila (talk) 01:31, 19 July 2008 (UTC) — Priestofshangrila (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. * This user is a actually a sock puppet. - MARussellPESE (talk) 21:29, 19 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]


    Comment It's interesting how many self-proclaimed researchers with no previous edits are showing up for this Afd. Edward321 (talk) 02:24, 19 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Comment What is even more interesting is that the parties who nominated and then supported the article for deletion possess a certain sectarian rivalry, shall we say, with this symbol and seemingly are acting as if they are on a religious crusade on wikipedia against it. New or not, no one other than the Wikipedia corporation holds any entitlement to wikipedia or its articles here. This is supposedly a community effort - however much certain religious sectarians are continually gaming the system here to stamp wikipedia with their own peculiar slant - and is open to anyone with an internet connection. So kindly
    assume good faith and stop acting as if you own this place. You do not nor is it any entitlement exclusively belonging to any single editor or administrator! Nur110 (talk) 05:31, 19 July 2008 (UTC) * This user is a actually a sock puppet. - MARussellPESE (talk) 21:29, 19 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
    ]
    CommentPlease note that none of the procedures or protocols for nominating an article for deletion were observed here. The article was arbitrarily gutted of all content and then nominated for deletion. This violates NPOV and also does NOT follow assumption of good faith protol. Given this the very reasons for its nomination are invalid. As such the tag should be removed. The parties should then come back there and discuss the reasons, whys and wherefores for wishing to delete this article and then renominate if the issues are outstanding. Nur110 (talk) 04:33, 18 July 2008 (UTC) * This user is a actually a sock puppet. - MARussellPESE (talk) 21:29, 19 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Three notable Western language academic publications reference the device, one as recently as 2004:

    • H. A. Winkler. Siegel und Charaktere in der Muhammedanischen Zauberei. Berlin and Leipzig, 1930.
    • Father Georges Anawati. Le Nom Supreme de Dieu, Atti del Terzo Congresso Di Studi Arabi e Islamici, 1966.
    • (ed.) Emile Savage-Smith. Magic and Divination in Early Islam. Ashgate, 2004.

    One editor removed all references and citations to the article and then nominated the article for deletion reverting it to its first version. This is not

    assuming good faith and is not a valid reason for nominating an article for deletion. As such I have removed the tag. Nur110 (talk) 08:13, 16 July 2008 (UTC) * This user is a actually a sock puppet. - MARussellPESE (talk) 21:29, 19 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
    ]

    Comment Wow! Am I sick and tired of people who apparently aren't familiar with
    WP:NONENG). I deleted these perforce — note that I left the English language further reading alone — and what's left is MacEoin's reference that doesn't support the subject. At that point an AFD is obvious. MARussellPESE (talk) 23:21, 16 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
    ]


    CommentBut here is the thing, your perforce deletion of the non-English *references* had nothing to do with the main body of the article. The non-English sources were in the references at the bottom of the article. Here is what the policy you invoke actually states,

    Because this is the English Wikipedia, for the convenience of our readers, editors should use English-language sources in preference to sources in other languages, assuming the availability of an English-language source of equal quality, so that readers can easily verify that the source material has been used correctly. Where editors use a non-English source to support material that others are likely to challenge, or translate any direct quote, they need to quote the relevant portion of the original text in a footnote or in the article, so readers can check that it agrees with the article content. Translations published by reliable sources are preferred over translations made by Wikipedia editors.

    This states nothing about non-English sources not being allowed at all, especially as it pertains to further reading references. What you did was vandalized the article and then nominated it for deletion without any discussion whatsoever then calling out your friends to come and support you in your actions. I have quoted the wiki criteria for deletion below. The article does not meet those criteria, and you have not even expressed your reasons for your deletion nomination. And here is where further the issue of good faith comes into play: instead of polishing or expanding or augmenting the article (or putting up a tag for expert input) you perforce took out all content, vandalized it then nominated it for deletion. Nur110 (talk) 08:46, 18 July 2008 (UTC) * This user is a actually a sock puppet. - MARussellPESE (talk) 21:29, 19 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    As I stated in the discussion page of the main article, as an academic, my own approach to the issue is that the sources cited (English or otherwise) are both findable and available (I have checked both internet purchase and library sources). It would not be difficult to acquire the relevant sections for thorough translation, especially, as I previously stated, considering its importance in the body of work to which this symbol is central. Assuming good faith means that if I go and get these sources translated, I am not going to find that the general references made in the article are misleading, but rather helpful to the greater understanding of the topic area. This can be confirmed as far as needs by by citing the other scholars who have used these sources. For example, Adadm Gacek from the Islamic studies department at Mcgill University cites the Anawati article in his paper entitled "Ownership Seals in Arabic Manuscripts" (www.islamicmanuscripts.info/reference/articles/Gacek-1987-Ownership.PDF), alongside the Al-Buni articles:

    (footnote 7)

    "The word Huwa is often seen in Shiite manuscripts. Some Muslim theologians believe that this word is “the greatest name of God” (al-Ism as Azam) and is to be found in the Seal of Solomon (al-Khtami al-Sulaymani). See e.g. G.C Anawati. “Le nom de supreme de Dieu’. Atti del terzo Congresso di Studi Arabi e Islamaci, Ravello 1-6 settembre 1966 9Napoli, 1967), pp.10-11; J. McG Dawkins “The Seal of Solomon’.. Journal of the Royal Asiatic Society (1944), pp. 145-150; Ahmad ibn Ali al-Buni (d.622/1225), ‘Sharh al-Juljulutiyah al Kubra’. in Manba Usul al-hilmah lil-Buni (Beirut, . n. d. ) pp 171-182."

    I would also cite the following article in English which clearly identifies the symbol in question:


    http://www.hurqalya.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/PAPERS/GREATEST%20NAME/CHAPTER%20FIVE%20-%20SHAYKHISM.htm

    Dr Stephen L Lamden, also clearly displays the symbol here:

    http://www.hurqalya.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/

    and quite clearly refers to the same non-english language sources as the ones in dispute in this page.Truegardenvariety (talk) 00:37, 17 July 2008 (UTC) — Truegardenvariety (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]


    I’ve just been going through the edit history for this page, noting the disagreements, and noticed a few serious discrepancies that suggest that the AFD should be very seriously considered for removal. I agree with the other editor that the protocol for removal has not been properly followed. I’ve cited the relevant Wikipedia policy on this as far as possible.

    1. What appears to be the major issue here is that the AFD tag was attached, then the disputed parts of the article deleted BY THE SAME USER immediately after, and before recourse to ANY other measures which may have been helpful in making this a better article. I have examined the edit log for this page, and saw that editor MARusselPESE cited the article for deletion, then 7 minutes afterwards, deleted the sources they had issues with:

    1. (cur) (last) 03:02, 15 July 2008 MARussellPESE (Talk | contribs) (2,040 bytes) (Delete foreign language sources. Delete stale "citation needed" statements.) (undo)
    2. (cur) (last) 02:55, 15 July 2008 MARussellPESE (Talk | contribs) (3,280 bytes) (AfD: Nominated for deletion; see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Most Great Name) (undo)

    Se also:

    Comment Wow! Am I sick and tired of people who apparently aren't familiar with WP:Policies flinging accusations agains WP:AGF. WP:V includes an entire section on non-English sources (WP:NONENG). I deleted these perforce — note that I left the English language further reading alone — and what's left is MacEoin's reference that doesn't support the subject. At that point an AFD is obvious. MARussellPESE (talk) 23:21, 16 July 2008 (UTC)


    How can the reasons for placing the AFD tag on the article then simply be validated by the subsequent actions of the same editor BEFORE any POST AFD notice discussion begins? The editord has simply made the case for nomination based on the changes they themselves made Doesn't this invalidate the AFD policy?

    As far as further factors in deciding when an AFD should be applied are concerned, I’ve read through the policy, and placed notes in bold underneath.

    Editing

    If the page can be improved, this should be solved through regular editing, rather than deletion. A variety of tags can be added to articles to note the problem. These are listed here. Some of the more common ones include 

      cleanup for poor writing
  expert-subject for pages needing expert attention
  notenglish for articles written in a foreign language
  npovfor bias
  stubfor a short article
  verify for lack of verifiability
  merge-for a small article which could be merged into a larger one.

    Pages with an incorrect name can simply be renamed via page movement procedure. Disputes over the name are discussed on the talk page, or listed at requested moves.

    Vandalism to a page's content can be reverted by any user.


    Why did the editor who cited his page not put up a VERIFY tag instead if they considered the sources questionable, especially considering that the high standards of the original references (perfectly verifiable, library listed, and referenced in other English texts with just a small amount of searching) made them prime candidates for verification, not deletion?


    2. Consider also, wikipedia policy on deletion which states:

    Articles for which all attempts to find reliable sources to verify them have failed.

    How many attempts have actually been made by the editor to locate reliable sources if they believe the other ones to be inadequate? They have simply blocked out the ones in question.NB. It was actually these removed sources that, through some basic searching, initially lead me to more material on this subject with available English language references.

    Also, deleting disputed sources/references 7 minutes after the nomination for deletion flies in the face of implementing fair discussion, as well as for implementing WIkipedia’s own policies!

    As per the Wiki deletion policy:

    Discussion

    Disputes over page content are not dealt with by deleting the page. Likewise, disagreement over a policy or guideline is not dealt with by deleting it. Similarly, issues with an inappropriate user page can often be resolved through discussion with the user.

    The content issues should be discussed at the relevant talk page, and other methods of dispute resolution should be used first, such as listing on Wikipedia:Requests for comments for further input. Deletion discussions that are really unresolved content disputes may be closed by an administrator, and referred to the talk page or other appropriate forum.


    Articles for which all attempts to find reliable sources to verify them have failed.


    Do you know the subject matter? Rather than trashing it, go out and find sources. If not, look for someone who does know the subject matter. Or, if you're feeling particularly daring, go and research it, and become an expert on the subject matter yourself, so that you can find those sources much more easily.

    What exactly do the editors know about this subject and how hard have they attempted to verify it? There is more than enough very valuable information on this page, that can no doubt be usefully expanded, and some of which has prompted me to investigate more extensive translation options for the cited foreign language sources. MOST IMPORTANTLY, the case for deletion, especially after some of the ways certain editor/s appear to have neglected the very policies on applying an AFD tag would seem highly questionable. Truegardenvariety (talk) 06:37, 18 July 2008 (UTC) * This user is a actually a sock puppet. - MARussellPESE (talk) 21:29, 19 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    The question remains as to why Deletion was the first recourse, and the protocols for nomination were not followed, when there were/are so many other valid recourses for the inclusion of this article? If the article is sloppy or needs verification, surely there are other ways of addressing this, especially since the very cited resources were deleted so soon (7 minutes!) after the AFD tag was placed there.And again, why is this article a candidate for deletion when the possible links to other sections, invaliadating the WP:NN claim, including Wikipedia's own entry on Al-Buni, the Names of God in the Quran, which refer to the 100th name/Most Great Name of God and support the verifiability of the sources (I mean, Al-Buni is HUGE in the area of study in question), have been overlooked when editors taking issue with the contents have investigated this article?Truegardenvariety (talk) 00:30, 19 July 2008 (UTC) * This user is a actually a sock puppet. - MARussellPESE (talk) 21:29, 19 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    'Keep' I have stated my views above. Keep the article. Priestofshangrila (talk) 01:35, 19 July 2008 (UTC) * This user is a actually a sock puppet. - MARussellPESE (talk) 21:29, 19 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Comment' Please only !vote once. Edward321 (talk) 02:24, 19 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]


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    The result was Delete--JForget 23:33, 17 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Sex and The City 2

    Sex and The City 2 (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

    failed deleted w/o discussion prod: violation of

    WP:NOT#NEWS. - CobaltBlueTony™ talk 02:40, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
    ]


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    The result was Delete, as a non notable band per

    WP:MUSIC. Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 18:59, 23 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
    ]

    My Parents Favorite Music

    My Parents Favorite Music (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

    I believe this fails

    WP:MUSIC. Prod was contested, and I held off on the nomination for a while, but author has failed to produce reliable sources, and an anonymous editor removed the notability tag w/o explanation. RayAYang (talk) 02:47, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
    ]

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    The result was Delete per

    WP:SNOW --JForget 00:19, 23 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
    ]

    Jealousy Curve

    Jealousy Curve (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

    WP:MUSIC Anger22 (Talk 2 22) 02:34, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
    ]

    • Denver, several states away from my computer. At any rate, I fail to see how somebody else's incivility in a completely different conversation justifies incivility here. Just be polite, no matter what you think of another editor's behavior. — Gwalla | Talk 23:39, 21 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]


    Keep It.....Jealousy Curve has had airplay on 93.3 WMMR in Philadelphia, has a song listed on the Dane Cook Tourgasm Soundtrack     http://www.soundtrack.net/albums/database/?id=4350 They won the Zippo Hot Tour contest to tour with All American Rejects in late fall/winter 2005. http://www.prweb.com/releases/2005/11/prweb309003.htm They were also interviewed by Matt Pinfield at the Dewy Beach Music Conference in early 2008. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GrG06e0qonE And the local Fox affiliate did a Bio type piece on them back in March 2006. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4ZT5px4gSg The thing with the Cruel Intentions 3 "soundtrack" is a bit wrong, their song "The World is You" was played in the movie, but I do not believe an actual "soundtrack album" was released for that movie. Why is this even being questioned? They are one of the best known local bands in Philadelphia right now, and their fanbase is growing every day. Their two albums are self produced because thats how you have to get started in the biz today. But I would think the Tourgasm release and winning the Zippo Hot Tour should suffice for notoriety.--Gordo (talk) 17:57, 18 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]


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    The result was Keep and merge (non-admin closure) with Garib Rath Express . Ruslik (talk) 06:20, 21 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Garib Rath

    talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD
    )

    does not assert notabilty; unsourced; style not consistent with WP tradition Mr. E. Sánchez

    Share yours with me! 02:29, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
    ]

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    The result was delete. PhilKnight (talk) 00:16, 24 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Constance Billard School for Girls

    Constance Billard School for Girls (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD
    )

    Unnotable fictional school with no extensive coverage in reliable third party sources. Fails

    talk · contribs) 01:55, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
    ]


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    The result was keep. John254 00:36, 20 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Kevin Whitrick

    talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD
    )

    Considerably less notable than other people we don't have articles on, such as

    WP:BIO1E, quite simply. Setting a record for being the first person in a certain country to commit suicide on webcam (there's no need for Anglocentricism - he wouldn't be less notable if he was the first person in Kazakhstan or Bolivia to have killed himself live on webcam) is not a real claim to notability. Meets verifiability, but ultimately it's more of a news story than an encyclopedic topic. Lulzislife (talk) 01:27, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
    ]

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    The result was Delete per unanimous vote --JForget 00:23, 23 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Back Off the Wall (Family Force 5 song)

    Back Off the Wall (Family Force 5 song) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

    Article has been prodded, but prod was contested (actually, it was mercilessly removed by anoter editor who didn't express anything at the edit summary), so I'm creating an AfD for it. The song fails

    WP:CRYSTAL, because it is an upcoming non-notable song. Victor Lopes (talk) 01:25, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
    ]


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    The result was delete. Wizardman 03:11, 24 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Evan Brunell

    Evan Brunell (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

    Article about

    conflict of interest. In addition, sole possible reliable source is Telegram and Gazette, while other sources are directly related to him (his blog, his website, and his LinkedIn profile). Also has tried to create Most Valuable Network, but it was deleted as advertising. Basically, the figure does not seem to establish notability. Goosfraba (talk) 01:17, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
    ]


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    The result was delete.

    93 04:05, 21 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
    ]

    David J Parks

    David J Parks (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

    declined prod. being named "top forty under forty" once by a local chamber of commerce is not a sufficient claim of notability, nor is being on a board of regents at a university. likely vanity article (first campaign for public office is just starting), no notable achievements, never elected to public office. Anon2060 (talk) 00:41, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]


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    The result was delete. PhilKnight (talk) 23:46, 22 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Luka Magnotta

    talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD
    )

    Non-notable model/porn actor. Has appeared in a low-circulation local gay magazine and a few porno films. No reliable sources could be located except for the magazine he appeared in; however, he is the subject of rumours that link him romantically to a notorious serial killer, which means hundreds on hundreds of gossip sites and blogs. Risker (talk) 00:42, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]


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    The result was delete. Fabrictramp | talk to me 14:30, 23 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Armagh ladies hockey club

    Armagh ladies hockey club (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

    Non-notable local sports club. No evidence is presented to justify its importance within Eire's sports world.

    talk) 00:29, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
    ]


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    The result was delete. Carioca (talk) 00:41, 21 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Ar.Co

    Ar.Co (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

    Being Portuguese, I can't say that I am aware of this school's local notability back at home. Online research doesn't seem to support its cause.

    talk) 00:24, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
    ]


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    The result was Speedily deleted as blatant copyvio by User:PeaceNT. Non-admin closure. AnturiaethwrTalk 03:09, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Arabian Reseller News

    Arabian Reseller News (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

    Non-notable niche trade journal. Its influence, both as tech media and Middle Eastern business media, is not obvious.

    talk) 00:19, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
    ]

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    The result was delete.  Sandstein  23:16, 20 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Portuguese epic poetry

    Portuguese epic poetry (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

    Being Portuguese, I am sorry to nominate this for deletion. The article fails

    talk) 00:13, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
    ]


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    The result was delete. Given that so few of the entries have articles, the consensus is that more is needed to avoid having the list be a mere linkfarm. As Sosh was making progress, I make an offer to move this to his userspace if he wants to continue working on it.--

    talk) 03:08, 24 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
    ]

    List of mobile banking vendors

    List of mobile banking vendors (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

    A

    linkfarm with 10 vendors and their respective websites. PhilKnight (talk) 23:53, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
    ]

    • Comment List now includes country of origin/HQ for solution vendor, and also the type of platform that is supported (SMS/Browser/Installed client etc.) - hopefully more soon. Sosh (talk) 09:15, 21 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment Sorry Boffob, but you still have not convinced me regarding how you define which mobile banking vendors are notable. Why do you think two of them are? Because they have wikipedia articles for themselves? Actually two of the market leaders in this field (Monitise and Firethorn) do not have articles! I can assure you they are very notable, but sorry, I don't have time to create the pages for them. Sosh (talk) 09:15, 21 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Keep Sorry, had put my comments on the article's discussion page. I'm surprised you didn't mention this Boffob in our discussion there! Anyway, I think this is a very useful page. My arguments:
    Sosh (talk) 08:56, 21 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]


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