Wikipedia:Stub types for deletion/Log/2007/January

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The result of the debate was rename

Correct (singular) term. I checked the history to see what knucklehead named this category and...um...it was me. Her Pegship (tis herself) 19:08, 1 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• I've speedied this, being at the request of Moe the only contrib (and not to say, likely to be speediable-as-clear-cut anyway). Alai 02:18, 6 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Nyuk nyuk nyuk! Her Pegship (tis herself) 03:53, 8 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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The result of the debate was delete

Never proposed, no category (thus malformed), no stubs, and a highly ambiguous name.

delete

Eli Falk 05:44, 1 January 2007 (UTC)[reply

]

• Delete. NRV. Dfrg.msc ^{1 . 2 . Editor Review} 08:44, 4 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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The result of the debate was delete in favor of India-lit-stub

41 articles, with associated project. Her Pegship (tis herself) 21:39, 3 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Support ~ Amalas rawr ^{=^_^=} 14:24, 4 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete and move contents into {{India-lit-stub}} (see below). I've reconsidered my nomination to rename. Her Pegship (tis herself) 22:05, 4 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Strong rename, and weak keep, given the WPJ. Alai 04:31, 8 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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The result of the debate was rename to US-southern-gospel-stub

From

• Note: Proposal discussion in November indicates it should have been {{US-southern-gospel-stub}}. ~ Amalas rawr ^{=^_^=} 19:20, 3 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Rename to US-southern-gospel-stub. Alai 03:45, 5 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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The result of the debate was delete

From

• Either delete, or rename to Cat:Dance music songs on the pattern of Cat:Dance music albums, create a corresponding permcat, and populate. (Simpler just to delete and worry about the second option later at /P, really.) Alai 03:49, 5 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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The result of the debate was rename to India-lit-stub

From

• Weak keep, mainly because the India project is quite productive and I think it'll get used; and rename {{India-lit-stub}} to conform with other lit-stub templates. However, this is the first lit-stub to be split off on geographic lines; I would like to know what other stubbers think about going this direction. Her Pegship (tis herself) 22:05, 4 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep and move (keeping redirect). I do wonder if by-language might be more useful. While the Indic language at least form a group, presumably this would with its present scope also cover India-related literature in English, Portuguese, etc... Alai 04:35, 8 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

From the WPJ's tendencies and the habits of lit article sorters, I believe it would be for literature by people from Indic cultures (in any language). Her Pegship (tis herself) 04:55, 8 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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The result of the debate was delete in favor of India-lit-stub

From

• Comment: The articles that use this tag will probably get restubbed with the further above {{ClassicalTamil-stub}} once it gets renamed. ~ Amalas rawr ^{=^_^=} 14:25, 4 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete and move contents into {{India-lit-stub}} for now (see above). Her Pegship (tis herself) 22:07, 4 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete as malformed, problematic in scope-overlap, and either very underused, or much too narrow. Alai 04:37, 8 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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The result of the debate was rename and upmerge

From

• Rename and upmerge, per naming guidelines and size criteria. Alai 03:47, 5 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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The result of the debate was rename to SexandtheCity-stub

From

Problem is that the show has a very long title, which is why I used the abbreviation. If there is no precedent/guideline/policy against long named stub templates, I'd go with {{SexandtheCity-stub}}. Koweja 19:03, 3 January 2007 (UTC) (template creator)[reply]

Oh, and sorry about not listing it on the project page, I didn't know it existed until right now. Koweja 19:09, 3 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Rename to {{SexandtheCity-stub}}. Still a fairly short template name compared with many that are in use. Grutness...wha? 00:15, 5 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Rename to include the words "Sex" and "City", fercryinoutloud. Alai 03:43, 5 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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The result of the debate was delete

Wildly misnamed, both in terms of the naming guidelines and ambiguity. Strangely worded, no category, six stubs, several of which are the connection of a sportsperson to a sports team, which is generally frowned upon (yes, it's about the Chicago Bears, not the large mammals - and also not the the California Golden bears, the Knoxville Ice Bears, the Smiths Falls Bears, Phoenix Polar Bears, the Sydney Bears, the Brisbane Bears, etc etc etc). I don't think i need to add that it wasn't proposed. Appears to be a nascent WikiProject either started or about to - in which case a project-specific talk page template would make a load more sense. Delete Grutness...wha? 02:43, 3 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Either rename to {{DaBears-stub}} for Da Bears or delete, with strong preference being given to delete. Caerwine Caer’s whines 06:20, 3 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Strong Go Bears (and delete). Alai 03:41, 5 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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• Delete too specific. -- Selmo ^(talk) 19:38, 4 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• I'd have to say keep, with the CW-style "judiciously-used" caveat. There seems to be well over 60 articles already tagged as WW2-stubs (not currently oversized, but a repeat customer at /T on earlier occasions), so separating out the biographies from the other-types-of-thing seems a straightforward and logical step. Used over-liberally, there would be potential for yet-more-multi-stubbing, it's true, but as far as the already-multi-stubbed articles are concerned, this would be an unqualified improvement. Alai 20:36, 11 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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The result of the debate was keep

From

• Weak keep (and an even weaker list). Alai 01:46, 5 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• VERY weak keep. With any luck the category will eventually evolve into something larger. Grutness...wha? 07:39, 5 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • "evolve into something" nice one :) Koweja 15:18, 5 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete per nom. The portal does an adequate job. PatriotBible 03:44, 8 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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The result of the debate was keep

From

Keep. Judiciously used, per state bio stubs are useful. I generally add a state stub type if a person has a notability that is specific to that state. Also Texas, with its period of independence has extra reasons for a stub of its own, not to mention those who were notable in Texas when it was part of Mexico or Spain. Caerwine Caer’s whines 04:06, 5 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Weak keep. CW's argument seems broadly valid, though the 'judicious use' falls in the "there's the rub" category. Alai 01:21, 7 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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The result of the debate was variously delete and clean up per nomination

From

• {{cocktail-stub}} - Used on 50+ articles, keep and CLEANUP
• Cat:Cocktails (stubs) - the category currently being used, does not conform to NG, delete

I'm not sure how

WP:NG applies here. Or does NG mean something else? Linking to the various terms, while a pain, is very helpful for people trying to learn the policies and guidelines that apply. Thanks. --Willscrlt 23:01, 4 January 2007 (UTC)[reply

]

Sorry, NG = Naming Guidelines, which can be found at

WP:WSS/NG. Sorry about that. I usually try to link everything. ~ Amalas rawr ^{=^_^=} 03:02, 5 January 2007 (UTC)[reply

]

• Cat:Cocktail stubs - what SHOULD be used, keep and CLEANUP

• {{cocktail-micro}} - used on 20-ish articles that are "micro-stubs", this is completely non-standard, delete restub with {{cocktail-stub}}
• Cat:Cocktails (micro) - as above, delete

• {{cocktail-expand}} - (should probably be at MFD, but I'm trying to keep this discussion together), used on 20-ish articles that are "larger than stubs", non-standard, delete
• Cat:Cocktails (expand) - as above, delete

The end result (ideally) should be: {{cocktail-stub}} feeding into Cat:Cocktail stubs. ~ Amalas rawr ^{=^_^=} 16:26, 4 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Approve all per Amalas, except relist {{cocktail-expand}} and Cat:Cocktails (expand) at MFD. —CComMack (t–c) 17:41, 4 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • {{
    here. ~ Amalas rawr ^{=^_^=} 17:58, 4 January 2007 (UTC)[reply
    ]
    • Okay. My bad. They're now at TFD and CFD: Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2007 January 5 and Wikipedia:Templates for deletion/Log/2007 January 5. ~ Amalas rawr ^{=^_^=} 05:11, 5 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• AMEND (see modified proposal under Alai's comments) DENY ALL - Hopefully we can fix specific problems rather than delete all these resources outright.

• Each of the items listed part of a massive cleanup project the WikiProject Cocktails is undertaking. It started in December and the cleanup project ends February 28th. At the very least, please do not delete these prior to that date. It has been soooo much effort to help categorize and tag all the articles, this would set us back terribly and just be devastating to the efforts of a small, but growing number of people who are helping to improve these broad section of articles. We have been making real headway, and these helpful tags and the related categories have been at the heart of organizing our work. If we did something wrong (and I'm sure we did since it's up for discussion here), please give us a chance to fix it.
• The micro-stub is something that is fairly unique to the cocktails pages. Within cocktails, there is a very common problem of articles that are nothing but a recipe for making a mixed drink. We are fully aware of
  WP:NOT#IINFO, but before deleting the information outright, we need to either transwiki the information to WikiBooks or integrate that information into List of cocktails
  or one of the other related lists.
• Prior to the micro-stub categorizing, these recipe-articles were being deleted--several per week--by people who did not understand the goals of the WikiProject Cocktails cleanup project. It severely disrupted the work flow and results of our efforts. Since creating and using that, we have had an increase in awareness, an increase in participation, and we have been able to get a lot accomplished. The "micro-stub" may be non-standard, but it's an extremely beneficial tool for categorization and cleanup for a somewhat unique problem our Project faces. Of all the proposed deletions, the micro-stub is the one I most strenuously object to at least through February, because it is so important to our ongoing work. We are working on transitioning to proper
  assessment
  of articles, so we only need about a week to make that change.
• I am not asking for an indefinite stay of execution on these things... just hold off on implementing any actions until we get a chance to fix things. These are intensive works in progress, not random templates and categories that were created on a whim. Each one was well thought out, and attempting to do so within the "proper" ways of doing things here. Unfortunately, Wikipedia has more guidelines and policies than the average well-meaning Wikipedian can possibly hope to learn in a short amount of time. But that does not give us an excuse, but I do ask that you give us the time to fix things without a horrendous disruption to our efforts. Thank you for your consideration. --Willscrlt 22:25, 4 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• I have provided background information and some possible fixes on Amalas' talk page directly related to this that might be an acceptable alternative to deletion and the disruption that would cause for our WikiProject's efforts. Please consider the possible fixes we have suggested as an alternative to deleting these resources -- at least until March 1st. Thank you. --Willscrlt 23:35, 4 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete/amend as per original nom. Vehemently, strenuously and absolutely delete cocktail-micro as a substub-style abomination. This could bbe handled far more effectively through WikiProject-specific talk page templates - it certainly doesn't need several grades of stub template. Grutness...wha? 00:12, 5 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I swear Grutness, I'd think you were discussing a spider or something, not a variation on a stub category. (Said with a twinkle in my winking eye.) I get your point, though. --Willscrlt 10:11, 6 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

If you knew the trouble we had with substub ((i.e., "this is even smaller than a stub") in the early days of WP:WSS, you'd know why! Grutness...wha? 22:31, 6 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete/amend per nom. If the wikiproject would like help in listifying or talk-templatising these as an alternative, I'd be happy to do so. It's hardly reasonable to wait two months before dealing with these, though. Alai 01:44, 5 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I may take you up on that offer, Alai. I have made pretty good progress on implementing proper

The Beatles WikiProject

's template.

Two months will not be necessary. If people could see their way clear to grant up to a one week stay of action, that would be most appreciated. I did copy down all the article names, but it will be much easier to update if they remain linked. If not, I can live with that, too. All finished with the changes. It was suggested that I list the affected articles in the Project to-do list, which was a great and very workable suggestion. I have removed the cocktail-micro template from all articles. (Now is that cheering I hear Grutness? ;-) The Category:Cocktails (stubs) category is ready to be deleted. I would still like to see the following change made... --Willscrlt 13:15, 6 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Could we amend the name change to "Mixed drink stubs", because that is a much better name. Cocktails are specifically drinks that are made primarily with distilled spirits (brandy, gin, rum, tequila, vodka, whiskey, and a few others), but excludes beer, wine, and non-alcoholic mixed drinks. Having now read the stub creation guidelines, especially the number of items that should be contained within a stub category (minimum of 60), it would not make any sense to create other stub categories for the various other types of mixed drinks. The change is also in line with the name change for the WikiProject itself that is coming under consideration (WikiProject Mixed Drinks instead of WikiProject Cocktails) for the same reasons. I mean, if we are going to go through all this bureaucracy, we might as well have something that benefits the WikiProject at the same time, right? So here is how I would like to see this all turn out:

• Cat:Cocktail stubs be moved to Cat:Mixed drink stubs and all articles updated to use that new designation.
• {{cocktail-stub}} (which is no longer part of this discussion) will be updated to {{mixeddrink-stub}} or something similar to reflect that change.
• Cat:Cocktails (micro) be kept until 08:00 UTC January 13, 2006 (midnight my time) (or sooner if I get done sooner), when it will be deleted and any remaining "micro stubs" (I hear Grutness screaming in pain at that name) will be merged into the new Cat:Mixed drink stubs category. Assuming I do finish this before the deadline, should I request a speedy delete at that point, or just wait for it to be killed off at the designated time by someone who remembers this conversation?
• assessment methods of identifying inferior articles. Again, I request the category be kept until 08:00 UTC January 13, 2006 (midnight my time) (or sooner if I get done sooner), when it will be deleted and any remaining "extends" will be merged into the new Cat:Mixed drink stubs
  category. The related template will be replaced with the stub template, if anything is still using it (which there shouldn't be at that point). Assuming I do finish this before the deadline, should I request a speedy delete at that point, or just wait for it to be killed off at the designated time by someone who remembers this conversation?

This is all essentially what Amalas originally proposed, but implemented in a way that helps the WikiProject rather than harms it AND brings everything into compliance within one week. It sounds pretty fair to me. I hope you all agree. And thank you everyone (except maybe Grutness ;) for being so civil and generally very helpful in this very stressful situation. Fortunately I'm a long time community player (elsewhere), and I am not a quitter. I did freak out, but I'm okay now, and I am working toward a positive and cooperative solution towards this whole mess. All I'm asking for is the chance to make things right. And the offers of help are appreciated. :-) Thanks again. --Willscrlt 10:11, 6 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Hrmph :) Hopefully the advice is useful. I think the flexibility of the talk page templates will - in the long run - be a lot more useful to you than the stub-like templates ever could havee been. Grutness...wha? 22:31, 6 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep all. Willscrlt is leading this project singlehandedly it seems and he's organizing things the way he needs to. The cleanup will end at the end of February, I think you should give the project until then till you delete themm
  Nardman1 20:36, 5 January 2007 (UTC)[reply
  ]

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The result of the debate was listed at

From

• Keep Those are Stubs templetes for the use of articles under WikiProject: Sailor Moon. They are for our use, Also They are still under constrution. We are well aware that they do not feed the articles into the proper Catigorys. I am informing the other Project and asking them to cast their votes. Lego3400: The Sage of Time 16:22, 4 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Honestly, I could go either way. They're very cute, but I know very little about the stub-sorting project and how complicated it is, so I'd rather not make more work for those who do. --Masamage 17:43, 4 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Relist at TFD or MFD. Not our problem, except the interaction with the stub category, which can be taken care of through normal editing and does not need a deletion debate. —CComMack (t–c) 17:38, 4 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • These are now listed at
    WP:TFD here and here. ~ Amalas rawr ^{=^_^=} 18:10, 4 January 2007 (UTC)[reply
    ]

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The result of the debate was delete

Never proposed, badly formatted (no category, to start with), only one stub (a programme stub)... and this is not how we split tv stubs! Delete Grutness...wha? 06:07, 4 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Delete per nom. Even if we did split this way, ambiguous as to whether cable/sat channels or PPV events were meant. Caerwine Caer’s whines 19:44, 9 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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The result of the debate was delete

Never proposed, only one stub, and - judging by what's written under domotics - that stub doesn't actually relate to domotics in any way. Not likely to reach 60 any time soon (i.e., not in the next couple of years). Delete. Grutness...wha? 06:07, 4 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Maintain the stub category. You can see what links to it, using: Special:Whatlinkshere/Template:Domotics-stub. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mac (talk • contribs)

Erm, yes... that's exactly what I did, which is why I noted that Clothes valet isn't anything to do with Domotics (the link between something which is akin to a heated towel rail and home automation is tenuous, to say the least). Neither, for that matter, is Equip´baie (a trade fair for general home fittings), one of the three extra stubs which have been added to the category since I nominated this stub type for deletion. Given that Cat:Domotics has - along with its subcategory - only 32 articles (several of which are not stubs, and several of which probably don't actually belong there, since they have little to do with domotics), the chances of this haveing 60 currently existing stubs is remarkably slim. As such, i stand by my original comment that this should be deleted. Grutness...wha? 12:21, 4 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete per nom. Alai 01:50, 5 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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The result of the debate was keep; create Category:Hindu theology perm cat

Not proposed. No corresponding perm cat. I recommend merging with {{Hindu-philo-stub}} (also not proposed, but it's well populated and there is a Cat:Hindu philosophical concepts). ~ Amalas rawr ^{=^_^=} 19:52, 5 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Object Here is the proposal. The ensuing discussion produced 3 supports and no opposes for a consensus. Also, there is a significant difference between {{Hindu-philo-stub}} and {{Hindu-theo-stub}} as "theology" also includes rituals and ceremonies, godhead, scripture and a degree of mythology that "philosophy" does not usually encompass - there are a lot of stubs based on Vedic myths, ceremonies and theology that cannot be associated with the usual definition of philosophy. But Cat:Hindu philosophical concepts should serve as the main category for both these templates. Rama's arrow 21:33, 5 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I did finally manage to find the full proposal. I do apologize for not finding it earlier. I always seem to search for things and not find them, only to have someone point it out shortly thereafter and I'm like "where did that come from?" Anyway, I can see that the text of {{Hindu-theo-stub}} does include things like scripture and ceremony, but that's not clear just by looking at the template name/category. Are you sure Cat:Hindu philosophical concepts is the right corresponding perm cat? What about Cat:Hindu texts and/or Cat:Hindu traditions? Maybe a clearer wording would benefit. Also, maybe we should have the parent just be Cat:Hinduism stubs instead of Cat:Hindu philosophy stubs so as to make it clearer that they are separate things. ~ Amalas rawr ^{=^_^=} 21:45, 5 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

No problem - for some damned reason, I can't find a proper archive either. I don't think we should drop these stubs under the Hinduism cat, as that defeats the purpose of having a separate stub. I know it appears strange, but I would recommend creating Cat:Hindu theology, of which the Cat:Hindu texts and Cat:Hindu traditions would be sub-cats. I think the problem you are trying to attack here is of categories, not stubs - I wish we could control the creation of categories to an extent. Rama's arrow 23:29, 5 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps you are correct. I try to have the stub cats follow the perm cats as closely as possible. So I suppose when the two don't match up, I assume the stub cat is at fault. I'm not sure that simply creating a Cat:Hindu theology container will really solve anything though. Out of curiosity, is there enough Hindu texts to have its own {{Hindu-text-stub}} (similar to {{Christian-text-stub}}? Maybe splitting that out will help clarify some scope issues. ~ Amalas rawr ^{=^_^=} 23:56, 5 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

No I don't think that will work, especially as a majority of the entries in the Christian text stub are commentaries, studies and modern versions. The present number of Hindu text stubs aren't enough. Rama's arrow 00:04, 6 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The lack of a permcat does seem a little odd; is there any reason for why there's not? If these articles are all legitimately on Hindu theology, adding a new permanent parent would seem sensible. Alai 01:54, 6 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - I am probably one of the few updaters of this stub. Theology refers to taxts and commentary, while philospohy refers to actual concepts.Bakaman 03:43, 6 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment I suggest a name change. We don't even have an article called
  Hindu theology. Gizza^{Chat ©} 12:02, 6 January 2007 (UTC)[reply
  ]

Keep--D-Boy 15:00, 7 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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The result of the debate was delete

We don't normally split people by subnational region except in the rare case of politicians (who are always associated with their constituency). Only two stubs, and no need. And that's without even mentioning that the category name should be British Columbia people stubs". Delete. Grutness...wha? 04:31, 6 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Again, I'm sorry I didn't know about the naming convention, or would have made this {{BritishColumbia-people-stub}}. Our history and even our current society is full of notable people who aren't politicians - as several historians have commented, BC's history is remarkable for its cast of "characters" - outlaws, publishers, mountain men, prospectors, flim-flammers, cultists, and so on; most of whom haven't been heard of - much less conceived of - east of the "Granite Curtain" (aka the Rocky Mountains; if that's a redlink I'll figure out what kind of article it has to be and write it; it's very citable and is as much a slang term as a state of mind...). So that's why I created the "bio-stub" - for biographies of non-politicians. If all these have to be in the Canadian people stubs, so be it, but "subnational" is a relative term for Canada...but perhaps only a Canadian from outside Central Canada would know what I mean by that...I've often had difficulty giving Canada stubs to things/people to do with BC before 1871, as we weren't part of Canada until then...Neutral but still would like to see {{BritishColumbia-people-stub}}. But hopefully I'll be diligent enough that I'll write articles, instead of just stubs, so the stubs won't be needed (?). Besides, why do the politicians get special treatment anyway? Lord knows they get enough special treatment as it is ;-| Skookum1 08:32, 6 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You misunderstand. The template would be at the name it currently has, but the category should be Cat:British Columbia people stubs. Except, as I said, we don'tusually divide people by subnational arrea - we go for nationality first, then occupation. Politicians are the exception partly because there are so damn many off them with articles, and partly because they are just about guaranteed to stay connected to one area forr their entire careers. Grutness...wha? 10:09, 6 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Delete, mobile people issues. Alai 05:12, 13 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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The result of the debate was rename to -poli-, upmerge to Canada politics stubs

A better possible split, but if we were to split on this basis, it would be BritishColumbia-poli-stub, by naming precedent. Only one stub. Delete, or possibly rename as upmerged template. Grutness...wha? 04:31, 6 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

These stubs would not be for people but for issues/arguments and political events and various crises/scandals and so on -of which we've kind of got a monopoly, historically, even worse than Quebec (!). One such example is

BC Legislature Raids, which is still really only a stub despite having some content). The "split" here would be off the main {{BritishColumbia-stub}}, rather than off the people hierarchy. Adjust and keep (i.e. to {{BritishColumbia-poli-stub

}} ).

I never suggested that this was designed to be for politicians. When I said "upmerged template", I meant to Cat:Canada politics stubs. Politics stubs take the form poli-stub, not politics-stub. Grutness...wha? 10:09, 6 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Upmerge on size and naming precedent, move per -poli- precedent, but keep redirect. Alai 05:12, 13 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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The result of the debate was delete

A road stub I can understand, or a rail stub, but I don't think we've ever had a single "transportation stub" per se. Possible renam to -road-stub as an upmerged template, other than that, delete. Used on one article. Grutness...wha? 04:31, 6 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Because I just put it there, as I happened to visit that page to check on something right after I craated the transportation stub. Transportation is a big theme in our history, as well as in current infrastructure, and as far as Material history goes we have a plethora of existing stubs and potential articles on the means and business of getting around our most difficult geography. Ferry routes, steamers and ships (including on at least 100 lakes and about thirty rivers), docks and ports, as well as historic routes, shipping companies etc. We're talking in the hundreds of stubs, perhaps well over a thousand. Marine highways are necessarily the same thing as ordinary highways here, and the ports that go with them are equivalent to bridges - do bridges get the roads stub, or nothing special at all (even though they're technically, after all, roads). As for railways, during the period a few hundred licensed, chartered railways were enacted under provincial legislation; up to 50 of them got built, most fairly short but each with a history and article-worthy material. So I thought a general "transportation" stub would cover the whole lot - rail, road, marine routes as well as their infrastructural components. Some also could get the "scandal" stub (poli-stub), by the way, but that's a longer story...{{tl:BritishColumbia-road-stub}} would do, although there's still no stub name for lists of ships, ports etc., nor the various freighting companies (many of which used roads as well as trails and steamers and even camels and hand-packers on trails where "road" would be a huge exaggeration...i.e. they were "intermodal"). Prefer to keep; again, if you want the Canadian stub cats cluttered with a few hundred new items, that would be the consequence of not creating a separate stub for BC for this stuff.Skookum1 08:41, 6 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Shipping companies, ferries,s hips, etc, would all take a BritishColumbia-shipping-stub, if such existed. Roads ((I note the only stub using this stub template was a road) should take a BritishColumbia-road-stub, and railways would take a BritishColumbia-rail-stub - if there were enough for any of these three stub types. Personally, I think that there are likely to be enough for some of these... but lumping them together into a transportation stub is something that has never been done at a national level,let alone a subnational revel, hence things like {{Canada-road-stub}}and {{Canada-rail-stub}}. Grutness...wha? 10:09, 6 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Actually that would be {{

water-stub}} for water transportation stubs. Still, I'd like to see a viable {{Canada-water-stub}} before even considering a NC specific variant. Caerwine Caer’s whines 23:20, 6 January 2007 (UTC)[reply

]

Unless the border has moved south a few miles, i take it you mean BC not NC ;) And yes, it was water-stub I meant. Grutness...wha? 07:18, 8 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Well, given that we've got, according to our popular/national mythology, 3/4 of the world's fresh water, and more lakes than I care to count....the {{Canada-water-stub}} is a pretty good idea all by itself; but knowing how many water bodies and streams there are in various provinces that are going to have articles (and in the case of streams, BC especially: see Category:Rivers of British Columbia and also Category:Lakes of British Columbia, both of which are far from complete. Other provinces have more lakes, and far less named streams of significance; out here a "creek" is often ten times the size of a "river" in other parts of the continent...(that's not a boast).Skookum1 08:16, 8 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I think you misunderstand - {{

water-stub}} is used for water transport - boats, ferries, etc. Rivers and streams would all take a regional geo-stub, as with everywhere else. Grutness...wha? 11:48, 8 January 2007 (UTC)[reply

]

Oh...well, we're gonna have a lot of BC geo-stubs, then. Lots and lots of them....just started a discussion, I hope, among BC WikiProject members, for my idea about historical regions vs the unworkability of regional districts; have a look at the project's talk page and look for "historical regions of British Columbia" (it's very late or I'd link that directly; tomorrow am), because of this subdivision issue, if we can/want to do it. As for this water-stub, how is that different from the shipping-stub?Skookum1 11:52, 8 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

That was my mistake - it's water-stub, not shippingg-stub (there isn't a "shipping-stub"). Grutness...wha? 02:50, 9 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Delete, not the way these are split; re-sort to -road-, -rail-, etc, if those are viable. Alai 05:12, 13 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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The result of the debate was delete

Cuts smack through the middle of BritishColumbia-geo-stub, which would be further split by subregion, not by towns, which are one of the types specifically listed as beihng no-nos. Strong delete for this one, irrespective of the fact that it has quite a number of stubs. Grutness...wha? 04:31, 6 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It has "quite a number of stubs" because I started working my way through geo-stubs after creating it, although I only finished "A" and "B" in the category listing; any others that have it are incidental because I found them while looking up something else. Similar extreme-content issues apply here as for the other three stubs above. We have hundreds of small rural communities, including Indian Reserves, which will have to have separate articles, and they're located in such a way, and distinct enough from each other, that they can't be lumped together in articles covering a bunch at once. Dividing up the geo-stub by subregion then requires a BIG discussion about which subregions we use for that - because the

West Kootenay, while in other reckonings it's part of the Okanagan. Even a discussion we had about what "Lower Mainland" means (the most populous part of the province, Greater Vancouver and then some) required an arduous discussion about exactly what definition it has; so "subregions" won't work here. Now, the further bit is that, in addition to the extant few hundred rural communities and Indian Reserves, British Columbia also has more ghost towns than the rest of North America put together, and a good couple of hundred of them are going to get articles, a good few dozen already have at least a stub. So this "geo-stub" cat, which also apparently must include rivers, islands and a host of other features, is also going to have over a thousand initial entries that are just towns and settlements (historical or current). And we have something like 15,000 islands....(PS I'm not meaning to be long or flip in all these comments; those familiar with my posts know I write this way naturally, and not to be ponderous or overblown; I just can't help it). So given the volume of communities articles, and the need for other subdivisions of the geo-stub cat, I must necessarily vote and plead Keep. And why are towns "no-no's"? Just asking....Skookum1 08:51, 6 January 2007 (UTC)[reply

]

Because overall about 80% of all geography stubs are for towns and communities. As such, it makes little or no sense to separatee them out from other geography stubs. Yes, there are likely to be big discussions about what subregions woould be best to use - similar discussions have occurred for about thirty countries so far, and also for some other parts of Canada (Ontario is divided by subregions). But that doesn't mean that consensus isn't possible on that. And given that people who are interested in geography tend, for the most part, to know about a particular area, it makes far more sense to divide geography stubs down by region and then subregion. The very few exceptions to this aare things hat specific editors aree likely to know a lot more about - nationalparks and ecoregions, for instance. It would be far more likely that an editor who knows about communities around Kamloops would also know about the mountains and rivers around Kamloops than they would about communities around Fort Nelson. This is why it says at

WP:STUB: For example, geography stubs are sorted by country so you wouldn't want to create mountain-stub or river-stub. Grutness...wha? 10:09, 6 January 2007 (UTC)[reply

]

Delete, split the -geos up by regional districts, or any generally recognised coarser-grained sub-regions if those are currently too small. Alai 05:12, 13 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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Rename to more appropriate, and memorable, name. Mike Peel 11:56, 7 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Seems sensible, especially given the possible ambiguity. Alai 01:54, 8 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• sounds like a good idea to me, too. BTW, you original comment about this on a WSS talk page menttioned {{
  Astronomy stub}}. Those two redirects should be deleted, since they don't adhere to the naming guidelines (I've marked them as such - neither is used, BTW). Grutness...wha? 05:05, 8 January 2007 (UTC)[reply
  ]

• The latter of those I created, and have tagged for speedy deletion. The former was not created by me; I support its' deletion. Mike Peel 10:03, 8 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• I had to think about this for a moment, but I support it. At first, I thought that the only other thing that "astro" could stand for was astrology, which I thought probably does not have its own stub template. Then I realized that "astro" could also stand for astronomer, which does have a stub template. The move therefore makes sense. Dr. Submillimeter 09:41, 8 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • There's quite a few meanings at astro, and there's also an existing Cat:Astrogeology stubs type... fed from {{crater-stub}}, just to confuse matters. Alai 02:04, 9 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Support. WilliamKF 19:03, 8 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Rename. Definitely avoids confusion. ~ Amalas rawr ^{=^_^=} 14:56, 11 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose. Current name is concise and on-target. —Joseph/N328KF (Talk) 03:41, 12 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Rename per Amalas Kamope |
  talk | contributions 12:40, 12 January 2007 (UTC)[reply
  ]
• Rename makes sense to me. "Astro" brings to mind astronautics, rather than astronomy. — RJH (talk) 22:54, 12 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Rename. Why not. Nick Mks 17:47, 13 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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The result of the debate was speedy rename

I propose to rename this category: Cat:South American mythology stubs
When I was a new user with this group you helped me to create 2 stub categories, one for North American mythology and one for South American, however, on South American I accidentally forgot the "N" at the end of "American" Goldenrowley 02:40, 9 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• It's a done deal. Alai 08:21, 9 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for helping! Much appreciated! Goldenrowley 15:36, 9 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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The result of the debate was rename/rescope to Category:Ceramic art and design stubs

I propose to rename this category: Cat:Ceramic art and pottery stubs I became aware this week of a few comments that the "ceramic stub" is unclear, that ceramics have industrial and applied uses uses, not just art, over on the discussion page at

• As the permcat is just Cat:ceramics, I don't think the "and pottery" is appropriate. I'd be OK with a rename to Cat:ceramic art stubs or Cat:ceramics (art) stubs. Maybe a rename of the permcat would be in order too, though, as ceremics vs. Cat:ceramic materials is a tad subtle. Alai 08:21, 9 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Hello. As I am new to Wikipedia I hope you will excuse me if I use the incorrect terminology. However, renaming as "ceramic art and pottery" is a mistake. At best this could be considered tautology, but even worse is that it may confuse some that pottery is wholly distinct from ceramics, whilst it is of course a type of ceramic. Why not just use ‘ceramic (art)’? Disambiguation using parentheses seems sensible, and I suggest the following: ceramic (archaeoloical significance), ceramic (art), ceramic (domestic), ceramic (engineering), ceramic (commercial production), ceramic (materials)

Thanx,Theriac 15:48, 9 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Change scope. I disagree with the proposal, although I do understand the thinking behind it. "..and pottery" is not appropriate as indicated by Alai, and in any case, pottery is a type of ceramics, not distinct from it.

The discussion has arisen because it has become apparent that there are many ceramics-related articles which are not covered, or are only very debatably covered, by the present ceramics-stub as long as it is only art-related. If the stub is amended to ceramics-art-stub, or left as it is, there will need to be a large number of subjective decisions about which individual ceramics producers make "art" and which do not - a POV can of worms. I would strongly object to renaming Category:Ceramics to what was suggested, by the way, and for the same reason.

Rather than renaming the stub to make it narrower, thereby leaving many articles with no available ceramics-related stub at all, I suggest instead leaving the name as it is and linking the stub also to the main article Ceramic and the Category:Ceramic materials, which then makes it wider in application and removes the potential for the existing "is it art? is it not art?" controversy.HeartofaDog 18:21, 9 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

(added) In other words, the ceramics-stub should be re-scoped to be applicable to all ceramics-related articles, not only to articles dealing with ceramics-art (which is proving a tricky thing to define).HeartofaDog 18:56, 9 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• "Art" is obviously a charged word as regards the boundary with "mere decoration", etc, but there's little confusing either of those with tungsten nitride, etc. (Not actually marked as a stub anyway, as it happens.) What about a disambiguator (throughout) along the lines of "(arts and crafts)"? (As opposed to Arts and Crafts.) Alai 19:55, 9 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • That would probably help quite a lot. The difficulties appear primarily when dealing with commercial manufacturers of ceramics / ceramics factories - rather than adding Category:Ceramic materials (I do take your point about that), how about linking additionally to Category:Ceramics manufacturers? That AND the "arts and crafts" suggestion should cover the bases. HeartofaDog 21:26, 9 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • I don't much mind what it links to, and category-page scoping statements can be as exhaustive as one wishes, but ideally stub templates should strive to be the proverbial "soul of wit", and be reasonably brief. Would "(art and design)" perhaps be a more comprehensive disambiguator? If on the other hand we go with an all-embracing everything-about-ceramics category, that could work too, but for consistency the permcats would ideally be changed around, so that Cat:ceramics is the top-level for everything, and not just the "ceramic artifacts", which could maybe go into a more specific-sounding category. Alai 00:11, 10 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      • I like the idea of an everything-about-ceramics solution very much - otherwise, as we've been seeing, however you try and split it isn't quite right because it overlaps into so many different areas. So that sounds good to me, and those categories would benefit from a systematic overhaul.HeartofaDog 00:26, 10 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• SUPPORT: Cat:ceramic art stubs or Cat:ceramic art and craft stubs both suggested by Alai. No offense HeartofDog, but I decidely at this time oppose changing the "ceramic stub" into something that covers all ceramic-made objects. It may have ceramic as its parent, but thats only because there was no "ceramic art" or craft category to link to, if there was, I would have linked it already. But if we wish, we can form the permanent category fairly quickly.... To clarify further, this Ceramic stub is in the Stub Table of Contents as a subcategory or child of art stubs but these children of art sometimes branch into crafts ... most notably the textile arts are also considered a craft, but they havent yet branched into rudimentary object articles. Art stubs are divided by art mediums (hence painting, sculpture, textles, glass, metal, paper,woodworking, etc. It has reason to stay an art category as there are over 60 articles at least on ceramic art and pottery (or, slighly refocusing, as art and craft), and further adding topics dilutes the classificitaion limits. Taking a parallel example: On sculpture art category, should we include rocks and bricks, and call it "things made of rocks"? Or the craft of metalworking, shall we say airplanes are made of metal and it is easier if we put all things made of metal together?? By the same token if we refocus what was hoped to be a ceramic art stub into "things made of clay", then the stub is no longer helpful to Wikipedia art editors. (in other words, if this stub category did not already exist, I would want to create it one day). There are lots of things in the world made of clay, dishs are made of clay, so are sinks and toilets, roof tiles and other construction materials. Putting them all together is useless to me, to someone else maybe not but I dont see a point for it, if so, group them under "material" section and maybe call it ceramic-material-stub. I'd rather see Jasperware with some very badly designed other art pottery, than see it grouped with roof tiles. Goldenrowley 05:19, 10 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment(no offence taken!) I can see Goldenrowley's reasoning, but it's too narrow, and I don't buy it. The parallels with sculpture and metalware are IMO not close enough. There is no difficulty at all distinguishing between sculpture and rock; and metalwork is easily sorted by the metal being worked (ie, precious or base). There is however every difficulty in allocating the products of a series of porcelain and pottery factories between art and not art. My view is therefore still that both Cat:ceramic art stubs and Cat:ceramic arts and crafts stubs are unworkable, for the reason already given, which is that there is a vast range of ceramics articles (ie, all those relating to factory production of ceramics) to which it is impossible to apply them objectively or meaningfully.

After all, this whole discussion was triggered by a well-informed editor (1) who objected on good technical grounds to ALL factory-made ceramics being termed "art" - including Wedgwood, Sevres and Chelsea. Goldenrowley thinks (2) that some are art and others aren't, which seems reasonable until you try to define which are which. I think (3) that any factory-produced ceramics with any kind of aesthetic design input may as well be called "art" in the sense of "commercial art". Any of these views may be right or wrong, but the point I'm making is that there is no general agreement on the subject, which is why the present stub doesn't work when applied to factories and needs a more radical change.

As I am not looking at the world through art-coloured glasses I have no problem at all having all ceramics-stubs in together - it seems to me logical and unambiguous. However, if that's not acceptable for artistic reasons I would have no problem with:

• • Change scope / Support Alai's other suggestion Cat:ceramic art and design stubs - the design element brings in the commercial manufacturers of (eg) decorative ware or tableware who are debatable or excluded under the arts and crafts version, but presumably the definition of design is such that it would exclude sanitary ware, drainpipes etc. I hope also that it is still close enough to "art" to be useful to Goldenrowley and pals. ALTERNATIVELY create a second stub: Cat:ceramics-manufacturing-stub, to cover all commercially produced ceramics, artistic or not. Obviously there would be considerable overlap, but both the arts and commerce factions would at least then have something with which to work from their different perspectives.HeartofaDog 16:37, 10 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • I can also support "Cat:ceramic art and design stubs" if we want to reach a consensus. Goldenrowley 21:01, 10 January 2007 (UTC) / adding this may be actually a great idea, "design" covers manufactured designs, it also infers the designs of "brand names" and most collectible ceramics have either artist names or "brand names" and brand stamps on the bottom. It will thus include pottery which almost always have a designer stamp on bottom. Goldenrowley 20:08, 11 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      • I like it too! HeartofaDog 02:07, 12 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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The result of the debate was delete

As per all other stub types for disputed territoriees, this will prove far more of a headache than it could ever be worth. Cat:Georgia (country) stubs is not over-full, and Cat:Abkhazia stubs is oddly populated by loads of geo stubs, several bio stubs (not divided by subnational region except in very rare circumstances), typography and linguistics stubs, and party stubs. Annoyingly, this new stub has been used to replace, not supplement, the former stub types, which will mean considerable work even if this stub type is kept. It shouldn't be, though. Delete. Grutness...wha? 05:39, 8 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• The grab-bag contents are less than satisfactory, but note that Abkhazia is de jure a first order division of Georgia (in fact, an "autonomous republic"), so this is how the Georgian stubs would/will be split if/when that happens, regardless of the sovereignty dispute. But since even the grab-bag is undersized, I'd prefer to either simply delete this, or to re-sort to upmerged -stub and -geo-stubs templates (which has the merit of enabling semi-salting of unproposed repopulation of the separate category). The -bio-stub is more marginal, for the reasons Grutness alludes to. Alai 06:36, 8 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete like any similar case. Valentinian ^{(talk) / (contribs)} 06:47, 8 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete as per Grutness. Ldingley 15:18, 8 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete per nom. Khoikhoi 22:08, 8 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete per all. --Kober 08:00, 9 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I was the one to create this stub, so let me explain myself. First of all, I am sorry that I did not follow the procedure. Frankly, I did not realise (really) that this could be controversial. I see how that does not really matter and that controversial or not, procedures serve their good use and are to be followed, but here we are, so:

-Firstly, the procedure that I followed was: I went through all the articles in the Abkhazia category, and to all which were already stubbed, I added the new tag. I further added a stub-tag to all articles I encountered which consisted of only a few lines or which seemed to consist of nothing more than one piece of text copied from some source. Furthermore, I added tags to articles on individual characters of the Abkhaz Alphabet which already were stubs, I figured that these articles partained to Abkhazia due to being related to the Abkhaz Alphabet article. I did not also create Abkhaz geography and biography stubs because the total number is indeed not that large and I thought it a concern for a later date. I did not delete Georgian stubs, I don't know whether that is what any of you believe.

-As for the reason for having Abkhazian stubs in the first place. The Abkhazian conflict knows two points of view. One point of view is that Abkhazia is part of Georgia, the other point of view is that Abkhazia is an independent state. NPOV is official policy on Wikipedia, so we need to represent both points of view. To say that there can't be such a thing as an Abkhazian stub because it belongs to Georgia, de jure, is to voice a Point of View. There is no objective basis on which one can say that Abkhazia belongs to Georgia. (UN, international community etc. are irrelevant, their position is still only an opinion, not fact.) Objectively, Abkhazia's status is disputed. And as such, it's stub articles should either carry both Georgian and Abkhazian tags (my original idea, though a tad redundant), or one neutral tag (with a map or both states' flags).

-As for not granting disputed regions tags in order to prevent edit wars: this would truly be sad, wouldn't this equal taking the easy route just to evade controversy? It is not true that unrecognised states do not get stubs as a principle. There exists a tag for Taiwan or ROC related stubs (Template:Taiwan-stub). It is exactly such a stub that I wish for Abkhazia also. While Taiwan is recognised by some 5 hands full of minor states, it is nevertheless internationally unrecognised. It is true that popular atlases may show you 'Taiwan' but not Abkhazia, but that is irrelevant, we are not here to merely follow others, we are here to follow principles. Any principles that apply in the case of Taiwan, apply also in the case of Abkhazia.

Keep. sephia karta 02:26, 11 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Similarly, there is one neutral Template:Cyprus-stub for both states on that island. sephia karta 02:36, 11 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Template:WesternSahara-stub, Template:Transnistria-stub, Template:Palestine-stub + Nagorno Karabakh related stubs carry both Armenian and Azerbaijani tags + Western Sahara's category is within the countries of Africa category ('de jure' it is still Spanish).

Abkhazia and South Ossetia seem to have been the exception to the rule so far. sephia karta 03:12, 11 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Cyprus-stub does indeed cover the whole island - thereby meaning we do not have to have a separate stub for TRNC - the equivalent here is having a Georgia-stub that covers both the recognised nation of Georgia and the unrecognised Abkhazia, thereby meaning we have no need of a potentially problematic Abkhazia-stub. Transnistria-stub has, ISTR been deleted at least once in the past and needs to come back here again by the looks of it. Palestine is accepted by a fairly large number of countries as being a separate territory for most purposes. WesternSahara-stub has long been a problem, it must be admitted. As for being de jure Spanish, that is true, but putting stubs related to it in Cat:Spain stubs would be highly misleading, in much the same way that Bermuda does not use UK-stub and French Polynesia doesn't use France-stub - in those cases the massive geographic dislocation of the territories from the country to which they are connected politically does play a part. BTW - apologies for thinking you had deleted Georgia-stub templates from those articles. Grutness...wha? 05:47, 11 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

But critically, the Cyprus stub tag does not use the flag of Cyprus but rather a map of the island. This in addition to the fact that the name Cyprus in itself could apply to both states makes for a neutral NPOV stub tag. The Georgia stub tag does employ the Georgian state flag, and the term Georgia only applies to Abkhazia according to the Georgian POV.

I don't understand why it is such a problem to have a neutral stub category for Abkhazia, if we can also have e.g. a stub category & tag Template:Quebec-stub. Quebec is not an independent state, and no one claims otherwise, nor is it geographically dislocated from Canada, and still it has its own stub, because it happens to be an interesting political and cultural entity. Seperate stub tags can be justified on the same grounds for Western Sahara, Taiwan and indeed Abkhazia, and this does not imply either recognition or unrecognition of resp. the SADR, the ROC or the Republic of Abkhazia. Similarily, even the seperate stub tag for Transnistria, or hypothetical seperate stub tags for the Republic of Abkhazia or the ROC do/would not imply recognition or unrecognition of those states, they merely assert that these are political entities which things can be related to. These and other unrecognised states may be illegimate in the eyes of many, but that does not change the fact that encyclopedically, they are real existant things. It would be POV to exclusively tag all Abkhazian stubs with a Republic of Abkhazia tag, or all Taiwanese stubs with a ROC tag, but that is not what I or others want. What I want is to prevent the opposite, that all Abkhazian stubs are exlusively tagged with Georgian stub tags.

So, what I propose is a stub category Abkhazia, which is both within the category of Georgian stubs and within the category of Abkhazia (itself again within the category Georgia and also within the category of unrecognised states). Subspecification into geographical/biographical/historical stubs is upto the guidelines of the stub project. The stub tag would replace any Georgian stub tags present in Abkhazian stub articles not directly related to Georgian political institutions, Georgian individuals, Georgian history, etc., to avoid duplicity (as the Abkhazian stub tag would be neutral, bipartial). Seperate stub categories for the political entities of the Republic of Abkhazia and the Autonomous Republic of Abkhazia are not introduced until/unless the number of stubs is large enough to warrant this (as per the stub project's regulations).sephia karta 14:22, 12 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

As i read your remarks, its very easy to detect POV and biased approch to Abkhazia problem, what do you mean by "the Republic of Abkhazia " ? There is no such "republic" officially and according to international law, its de jure status is within the borders of the Georgian state, wheather you like it or not. Your stub is definitely a POV approch, which only further aggravates the very delicate issue on the status of that separatist enclave. Transmistia stub is also a mistake and it should be deleted accordingly. Abkhazia does not posses any means of state or unrecognized state, 70% of its population is driven out by force, the "republic" is run by dengerouse militaristic regime. By the standards of UN, OSCE, and the international law on the territorial integrity of the state, Abkhazia is recognized officially under the Georgian jurisdiction. Chechnya stayed de facto independent for a while; however, the region is back in de jure control of the Russian federation. Therefore, it’s not productive to create stubs which will cause further dispute and undermine the NPOV integrity. Ldingley 20:37, 12 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I have argued why my approach is NPOV. Please explain to me what part of my reasoning is flawed rather than indiscriminately labeling it POV.

It is factually inaccurate to state that "Abkhazia does not posses any means of state or unrecognised state". Apart from recognition, Abkhazia does posses all the properties of a state that can be expected for a population of around 150,000. It has a government, parliament, elections, a civil society, a military, flag, anthem, you name it. You can disagree as much as you want about the right of existence of that political entity that calls itself Republic of Abkhazia, but you cannot deny it's existence. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, and therefore it must show the world as it is, not as it should be. You and I likely agree on the criminality of the North-Korean regime, but we cannot deny its existance and Wikipedia does treat North Korea as the state that it is, despite the numerous crimes it has commited.

Even the UN, the OSCE, while they agree that Abkhazia should be part of Georgia, acknowledge the fact that the reality of the ground right now is different. If it weren't, there wouldn't be a conflict to solve. sephia karta 00:19, 13 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

We shouldn't have templates that will be the subject of edit wars. Any template relating ot a disputed territory has a very high risk of such a scenario. Valentinian ^{(talk) / (contribs)} 17:00, 13 January 2007 (UTC}

But you don't know that there will be edit wars. There were some edits shortly after I initially created the tag, but it has been stable since. And I for one, knowing that the issue is delicate, intend to first propose changes on the talk page from now on, should I hav issues with the tag. Also, while the topic of Abkhazia is controversial, I wouldn't say there have been any edit wars as of late over it.

Regardless, where does it say that we can't have templates that might cause edit wars? Wouldn't adhering to that principle equal avoiding controversy at the cost of other principles?

And as I've pointed out, other disputed territories, despite the very high risk you claim, do actually have their own templates, so I really don't see the argument here.sephia karta 14:40, 15 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep. - Patricknoddy 5:35pm, January 14, 2007
• Delete per all. -- Clevelander 23:00, 15 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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The result of the debate was delete Indonesia and Pakistan, keep Thailand

• Cat:Indonesia university stubs - 13 articles
• Cat:Thailand university stubs - 16 articles
• Cat:Pakistan school stubs - 26 articles

~ Amalas rawr ^{=^_^=} 17:04, 10 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Support, if not substantially populated. Alai 17:56, 10 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep Cat:Thailand university stubs as it now has 52 articles, and is still growing. --Melanochromis 10:05, 16 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • That's substantiative enough for me. Alai 16:38, 16 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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The result of the debate was no consensus

Not proposed, one stub, and the category curiously has various boxing categories as its parents (a copy and paste error?). Though I can see the thinking behind the creation of this, I doubt its usefulness. Way over 90% of the world's baseballers are likely to be Americans - the sport is virtually unknown outside a handful of countries. And baseball bio-stubs are already being split along role-related lines outfielder, pitcher, etc). I don't really see that this would bee a useful split. Ironically, I could see logic behind, say, a Japan-baseball-bio-stub, since the few that aren't from the US do stand out a bit more from the crowd. Delete. Grutness...wha? 03:15, 10 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Keep While the majority of baseball bio's will be no doubt be Usonians, there are quite a few from other countries in the Americas, enough so that unlike {{Amfoot-bio-stub}} and its descendants, it is not useful to assume by default that players are Usonian by default. There are over 200 articles in Category:Dominican Republic baseball players and Category:Venezuelan baseball players and over 100 in Category:Canadian baseball players and Category:Cuban baseball players. (East Asian countries are probably underrepresented due to their players not usually playing in the U.S. leagues.) No objection also adding position based splits of this as well. Caerwine Caer’s whines 03:55, 10 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I stand corrected - I'd forgotten about Caribbean baseballers, and some of them may well be viable (especially since we tend to split Puerto Rico from the US "proper"). A split by nationality and role may be useful after all... Grutness...wha? 05:55, 10 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Strange, my earlier comment seems to have vanished, all but the edit summary. Assuming it doesn't rematerialise... If we're going to keep this (which we might as well), I suggest we also immediately create US- versions of the by-position types, since populating this directly would be painful and counterproductive. Alai 01:48, 11 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• I was gonna say keep, but I noticed that they were already split by decade, which means there's no reason to keep this. Delete. That being said, the category could stay and hold all the subcategories, but there's enough categories that do that.--Wizardman 01:40, 17 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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The result of the debate was rename/rescope to WesternAustralia-road-stub and Western Australia road stubs

11 articles. Can't see this growing to 60. I also found {{

Several points to make here:

• Anyone who thinks this can't grow to 60 (or 100, for that matter) is advised to look at List of major roads in Perth, Western Australia. The Perth metropolitan area (which this covers, rather than just the downtown area) covers a land area not dissimilar to that of metropolitan Los Angeles, but with 1/10th the population (about 1.6 million). As such, roads have been critical in Perth's definition and growth, and are linked extensively in those Perth articles which are considered complete (according to Wikiproject Perth, only 40 out of 338 articles meet this criteria, but this is moving ahead slowly).
• This stub was created barely a month ago (12 Dec 2006). For nearly the entire time since, the December-January holiday period has deprived us somewhat of editors, who will become more available as we go into February. Road stubs get created when people are working on suburb articles to fix redlinks, and much of the information about Perth roads is in book form in the State Library rather than online.
• The SfD guidelines only highlight two categories which might be marginally relevant to the reasons for deletion:
  • "They are not used in any article, and their category is empty" - clearly not the case, as it has 11 articles.
  • "Their scope is too limited" - see above notes. Note that the 50 is only described as a "rule of thumb", and there is certainly no mention of 60.
• Also, no logical destination to upmerge them to. --
  Orderinchaos78 22:45, 12 January 2007 (UTC)[reply
  ]

• Rescope/Rename to WesternAustralia-road-stub and Double upmerge to Cat:Australian road stubs and Cat:Western Australia stubs. Once iot reaches 60, then a separate category would be logical, but it makes sense to split out Australia's roads primarily by state, not city. Grutness...wha? 23:48, 12 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Anyone who thinks that what this could grow to should be the determining factor is advised to look at
  WP:STUB, which indeed makes "mention" of 60. Stub types are to deal with existing articles, not for "plans for future expansion", especially when these involve sidelining very small numbers while those are "on hold". Populate to 60 or double-upmerge, in each case with either the present scope or Grutness's suggested modification (in this second instance, renaming). Alai 00:28, 13 January 2007 (UTC)[reply
  ]

• Comment I still feel that this move is incredibly premature. It encourages the development of low-content stubs which, if someone like myself becomes busy with a dozen other things (or in fact already is), very little will happen with without encouragement. I would expect that the guideline wouldn't normally anticipate 60 stubs being created by one or two people within the first month of a stub and category's existence purely to stave off the threat of an SFD which, I might note, I only accidentally noticed because of a small announcement at the bottom of a page I was working on. I'm not sure any of the other road editors are even aware this debate is going on, especially as quite a few are still on holidays until the end of this month. Also, upmerging to Australia-road-stubs leaves us where we were before, not being able to even find our articles in the mass of Victorian and NSW ones that were created some time ago.
  Orderinchaos78 14:48, 13 January 2007 (UTC)[reply
  ]

I did in fact

notify WikiProject Perth, just so you know. I figured that was the best way to contact people who would be involved in this discussion. ~ Amalas rawr ^{=^_^=} 22:00, 13 January 2007 (UTC)[reply

]

Comment - changed to Strong keep.

SatuSuro 15:20, 13 January 2007 (UTC)[reply

]

• Strong keep These are being maintained by both
  WP:WP) and Wikipedia:WikiProject Perth
  .
  • They are not the fancy of a single editor.
  • They are new.
  • They are peer reviewed by wikipedians of high standing and long experience.
  • If they don't work out we will remove them. We like things tidy. No contest.
    WP:WA. Fred 15:42, 13 January 2007 (UTC)[reply
    ]
• Rescope and double upmerge per Grutness. Stub types/categories are intended to split existing stubs into categories of 100-300 articles, not allow for growth. The guideline doesn't "anticipate 60 stubs being created by one or two people within the first month of a stub and category's existence purely to stave off the threat of an SFD", because it specifically says not to make the stub until there are already at least 60 relevant stubs. I don't see any implications for the whole Australian wikiproject, this is just a normal stub issue. It may indeed be useful to split stub categories up by state regardless of size, but this would have massive implications for the stub system as a whole, unless we are making Australia a special case. JPD (talk) 17:14, 13 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Strong Keep there are way more than 11 roads in perth!!! I see its gone up to 15 38 while we've all been sitting here talking about it. the WP Western Australia people are a good if small lot and work hard at this stuff and it's stupid wasting their time having to change this to that then that back to this when they hit some arbitrary magic number that two guidelines cannot even agree on (that one says 60 this one says 50...) I mean it's fine to say "change it" but I bet the people voting "rescope" and stuff in this SFD won't be the ones actually going into 60 individual articles and changing them themselves once it hits 60 (which it will) I think this is one of those cases where legalistic ideas have overtaken common sense. I mean is wikipedia seriously going to run out of hard disk space if one little stub sticks around? and yeah this "finding" and "deciding to let stay" i thought the whole point was the community decides not one user who spends a lot of time looking for other people's stuff to delete... also people saying "it has to be state" don't know an awful lot about western australia. you won't find a lot of named roads outside of perth, put it that way... those there are would get pretty upset about getting bundled in with perth (like the bunbury people) as it would disrupt THEIR work. DanielT5 17:25, 13 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • But it's not about how many roads there are in Perth or even how many roads there are that deserve an article, it's about how many Perth road stubs there are. It's very strange to object to some "deciding" to start a community discussion to delete it, when someone has obviously "decided" to create the stub, even thought
    WP:STUB suggest several times that new stub types should be agreed to by the community. Noone has said "it has to be state", but someone who knows a lot about how the stubs sorting system works, and a reasonable amount about Australia, has suggesting that it would make the most sense. I don't see how Bunbury roads being in a WA stub category rather than left in the Australian category would disrupt the work of anyone interested in Bunbury. JPD (talk) 19:16, 13 January 2007 (UTC)[reply
    ]
• Strong keep. It is a logical stub category, there's quite a bit of material now, and that's only going to grow with the Perth editors becoming very organised. Rebecca 23:37, 13 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Strong keep and rescope. —Moondyne 04:05, 14 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Rescope/upmerge per Grutness. The only reasons for having a Perth-road-stub are (1) because there are a lot of people out there who are likely to be interested in tracking and improving stubs about Perth roads, but have no interest in tracking and improving stubs on more general topics such as Western Australian roads or Perth in general; or (2) there are so many stubs on the more general topics that it is difficult for editors to locate stubs of interest. I don't see either of those conditions being met here, now or in the next year or so. Hesperian 04:42, 14 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep and rescope to include all Western Australian roads. Gnangarra 05:32, 14 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Agree with this proposition. Wikiproject Western Australia is capable of distinguishing its own area of interest (separate from Perth's) if necessary through project pages, so the distinction is not necessary.
    Orderinchaos78 02:56, 15 January 2007 (UTC)[reply
    ]
• Keep; I agree with gnangarra that we should rescope to include all WA roads. If you give this a chance, the category will grow eventually--M W Johnson 00:49, 15 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment This seems to be a head-on crash between the very enthusiastic Perth and WA editors, and the stub sorters who need order to do their job. I'm not sure if this stub was created "in process" or not, but I'm confident the Perth people know what they're doing. I'd suggest/support widening to WA scope, but choose not to vote such on this proposal. I'd also remind M Johnson that the objective is to shrink stub categories, not grow them. --Scott Davis ^Talk 01:24, 16 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weird, the comment I made here earlier seems to have simply disappeared. Anyhoo, I was trying to say something to the effect of: hopefully no more than a minor fender-bender. It's also in WSS's interests to see the Australian roads sub-divided as and when that's feasible, it's just a matter of on how broad a basis, and how soon. The current scope is for one thing less than thunderingly obvious: I did a double-take at Fremantle roads being tagged as "Perth", not being entirely up to speed on my Western Australian local government entities. (Is there even a separate article for that entity?) "Western Australian road stubs" would be much more obvious, as well as at least slightly broader in terms of numbers of stubs. Alai 01:09, 18 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Ironically this SFD has probably provided the largest momentum we've seen in road articles in some time - I was quite shocked to see how few of the really important arterials had nothing whatsoever. Being careful to create only stubs which actually can grow (i.e. are verifiable, notable, reliable sources can be found, contribute to the history and development of Perth, etc) we're already up to 50 with several to-do lists of more to create - it will most likely be over 60 by the time admin action on this SFD is considered. I'm firmly in agreement with ScottDavis that we shouldn't be trying to grow stub categories - however in the short-medium term present there is a need for one here. One would hope that at some point in the next 12 months this category will be empty once again as we'd have got all of the articles to minimum Start class and possibly in some cases Featured or GA status.
  Orderinchaos78 16:22, 17 January 2007 (UTC)[reply
  ]
• Further comment, If the outcome of this SFD is to keep this with its current scope, the template will still need renaming, since Perth is a dab page, and for many people the Australian city will not be the first place though of (PerthAU-road-stub would be consistent with other similar cases in the past) Grutness...wha? 12:50, 19 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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The result of the debate was speedy delete

From

• Would seem so. Speedy delete. Grutness...wha? 23:48, 12 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Sped. Alai 00:37, 13 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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• Rename/upmerge per nom. Grutness...wha? 23:48, 12 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Rename, and upmerge if not populated to ~30 articles. Alai 00:44, 13 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Rename, but no upmerge. I have been holding off on adding the stub to pages until the naming issue was cleared up. There are certainly more than 30 articles that this stub can be placed. VerruckteDan 07:22, 13 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• No upmerge There are well over 30 articles that would befit this stub category. I suggest simply turning this into a redirect. --Kunzite 01:17, 14 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • By "upmerge" people mean, keep the template, but have that feed into a different category, which is broadly similar to a "redirect" (but maintaining the distinct text of existing template. Alai 05:20, 15 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • There's no need to do that. There are more than enough New Orleans related stubs to populate the category. The nearly three-hundred year-old city has a history and notable people that are not well covered on Wikipedia. The stubs just need to be identified. We're over 30 now and since your bot got the template changed the template name, VerruckteDan can have a blast adding them to other stub-worthy articles. --Kunzite 06:07, 18 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      • I'm just trying to clarify what "upmerge" means in this context, since your "redirect" comment seemed to indicate confusion on this point (or at any rate, certainly confused me). Alai 17:30, 18 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Rename template as per VerruckteDan Caerwine Caer’s whines 06:28, 14 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Rename template but no upmerge. Staroftheshow86 20:36, 14 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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The result of the debate was keep

From

There are actually 125+ articles Pretty soon there will be about 300 stubs. Please give it time .Ernst Stavro Blofeld 15:15, 12 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Well, it's been a month since creation and if only 45 articles have been tagged since then, I don't see how there will be 300 soon. ~ Amalas rawr ^{=^_^=} 15:31, 12 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I have tagged some films that were not stubbed categorize dcorrectly and addeed a few more as I am doing. I now count 62 films.

• Looks like a weak keep now then :) Grutness...wha? 23:48, 12 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep. Alai 00:51, 13 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep. It is 60+ now. Valentinian ^{(talk) / (contribs)} 16:54, 13 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Strong Keep There are 100+ articles. I have gone through earlier films which were not tagged as Argentine and habe started several which I will expand into full detailed articles later. Trust me that it will be marked as argentina stub if this is deleted and soon there will be millions of argetine stubs from all aspects of argentine life!! Argentina has a major film industry and it makes sense to organize it. Ernst Stavro Blofeld 21:17, 13 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep. It's 124 as of now and User:Ernst Stavro Blofeld keeps working hard on it. Hoverfish Talk 21:48, 15 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Glad to see it is not only the

WP:SNOW? Valentinian ^{(talk) / (contribs)} 18:02, 16 January 2007 (UTC)[reply

]

This is probably closeable without recourse to SNOW, since the current population negates the cited reason for nomination. Unless Amalas wants especially wants to let it run, or to add a rider... Alai 18:25, 16 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This can be closed. Thanks Ernst Stavro Blofeld, for all the hard work. ~ Amalas rawr ^{=^_^=} 18:33, 16 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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The result of the debate was upmerge

From

• Upmerge, yes, but where to? Grutness...wha? 23:48, 12 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Upmerge to, well, up (i.e. its only stub parent). Alai 00:47, 13 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Upmerge to Asian mythology, however Asian myth stubs may need to be broken down in the future its growing large.I don't see "Siberia" section growing very quickly. Maybe a China myth stub might make more sense.... Goldenrowley 22:06, 15 January 2007 (UTC) -- Under 200 Asian Myth stubs if include Siberia. Ok to just upmerge. Goldenrowley 03:00, 16 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • China-myth-stub makes a lot of conceptual sense. The need to split is by no means urgent, mind you. Alai 13:15, 16 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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The result of the debate was upmerge to fungus stubs and botanist stubs

From

Keep. This category is genuinely needed by WikiProject Fungi to point out the articles on mycologists that are in need of expansion. Upmerging this stub back into "botanist stub" is at cross-purposes with this. Peter G Werner 17:21, 12 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

What about upmerging it into Cat:Fungus stubs to keep it within WP:Fungi's scope? (I'm thinking along the lines of it being similar to a fungus-bio-stub or something like that) ~ Amalas rawr ^{=^_^=} 17:34, 12 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

That would be preferable to losing it in "botanist stubs". If you have to upmerge it, put it there. Peter G Werner 19:40, 12 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Upmerge Until it has enough stubs to warrant a stub category of its own, using What links here on {{mycologist-stub}} should be adequate for the Fungi fun guys. Caerwine Caer’s whines 17:40, 12 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Make that a double upmerge with {{Mycologist-stub}} feeding into both [[cl|Botanist stubs}} and Cat:Fungus stubs until it has enough styubs to warrant a category of its own. Caerwine Caer’s whines 09:50, 14 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - What is fungus-bio-stub but renamed mycologist? How many mycologist stubs do we need to make it worthwhile? (I will gt to work on a few more...) Cas Liber 20:36, 12 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I wasn't suggesting that we rename this fungus-bio-stub or anything like that. I was trying to imply that it would be similar to other things like {{

econ-bio-stub

}} (which is a redirect to economist), but economist is a much better word. I hope that made sense.

Usually 60 stubs is the general guideline (listed in the proposal procedure). ~ Amalas rawr ^{=^_^=} 21:33, 12 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Strong feeling of deju vu about this discussion. If not populated to ~60 articles, upmerge to both of the above-mentioned types. Alai 00:03, 13 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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The result of the debate was upmerge

From

• Populate or upmerge. (I should get a macro for that.) Alai 00:49, 13 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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The result of the debate was upmerge

From

• If not populated, upmerge. If populated and kept... it seems as if we have Cat:Multi-sport competitions (as distinct from Cat:Multi-sport events, of course...), as well as multisport and Cat:multisport stubs: either the former or the latter two need to be renamed. Or all three, which might be the only way to make this the least bit clear. Alai 00:19, 13 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• As a keen sportsman I'll give you my input on this (is 5am over here, and I've just arrived back from a bike ride that I left at 3pm for the PREVIOUS DAY!). It would be very very silly to merge Cat:Multi-sport competitions and Cat:Multi-sport events. They are two totally different categories, as for renaming them. No, that also isn't needed. They both have been given suitable names (with the except of a point regarding Cat:Multi-sport competitions which I'll get to in a second), and there should be no possibility of confusion because they have both got a careful explanation of what they are on their respective pages. Even including links across to the other category should anybody be accidentally looking at the wrong one.Cat:Multi-sport competitions should be renamed to Cat:Multi-sport, because as it is now it's scope is narrowly confined to competitions and couldn't be including a much broader range of articles (such as athletes, equipment, magazines, organizations, etc...). Finally I fail to see what is unclear about the scope of Cat:Multisport stubs, it covers and has pages that are exactly what a person would expect based on the name and the description in the template. Mathmo ^Talk 16:14, 14 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merger of "competitions" and "events" isn't at issue here, since those are permcats, not stub categories. (Mind you, "no possibility of confusion" and "careful explanation" are both contrary to my experience.) Likewise, if you want to rename in the way that you suggets, please take that to
    WP:CFD. However, if you do, please don't be quite so blithe in interchanging the hypenated and non-hyphenated versions, especially if it's otherwise being used to help distinguish from the Cat:multi-sport events. Alai 17:48, 16 January 2007 (UTC)[reply
    ]

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the stub template and/or category above. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the template's or category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was delete

Category page does not have the propert setup -holds only 4 stubs. Goldenrowley 18:20, 13 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• I think this is probably populable from Cat:astronomy stubs and Cat:physical cosmology, but if that's the intent, then it should be scoped more explicitly as such (since re-sorting astro-stubs into a type also scoped to include Cat:metaphysical cosmology would be a bad plan). So rescope, and then either upmerge to astronomy, or populate, and rename category to Cat:physical cosmology stubs. Alai 22:15, 13 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete and recategorize each of the 4 articles. In my opinion too much overlap with other stubs that already exist? Goldenrowley 22:08, 15 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the template's or category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this section.

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the stub template and/or category above. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the template's or category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was delete

Never proposed, four stubs. Dreadfully named - feeds the nonexistent Cat:List of Malay stubs! Unclear whether it's for the race, the language, the peninsula... all of which are covered adequately by other stub types. Delete Grutness...wha? 00:46, 13 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• A nice, uncomplicated delete. Alai 01:52, 13 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete per nom. Other stub types cover it, and the category doesn't exist. Michaelas10 (Talk) 11:50, 13 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete per nom. Valentinian ^{(talk) / (contribs)} 16:53, 13 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the template's or category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this section.

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the stub template and/or category above. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the template's or category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was keep

Never proposed - only 19 stubs, but has a wikiproject. Doesn't look a likely stub type at present. >\Grutness...wha? 00:46, 13 January 2007 (UTC) Withdrawing nom due to growth in category. But please propose creation next time! Grutness...wha? 04:16, 15 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Seems a sane scope, is appropriately used (i.e. not on the actual fish), and it's about 60% of the way to viability. Nor does there seem to be a good upmerger target (shoving them in Cat:fish stubs doesn't seem like a good plan. I'd be inclined to cut them some slack and hope they populate. Alai 01:04, 13 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• This stub is created by Wikipedia:WikiProject Aquarium Fishes after several members agreed it was needed. I apologize that it was not officially proposed here, but we did proposed it to the Aquarium Fishes wikiproject members and had our discussion here. Like Alai said, this stub is useful for the wikiproject members and is not mergeable with the fish stub (or any of its sub-stubs). We are just beginning to organize the fishkeeping articles, so in the near future you will see many more articles marked with the fishkeeping stubs. So, I'd like to ask for some time before you decide whether to delete or keep the stubs. --Melanochromis 03:40, 13 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• As one of the members of the aforementioned WikiProject, I too move that the fishkeeping stub be kept. The WikiProject is currently in its infancy, but hopefully it will grow. I'd have devoted more time to it myself over the past couple of weeks if offline life hadn't intervened with bureaucratic woes (sigh). Calilasseia 11:59, 13 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• 33 stubs now, so seems fair enough. Alai 22:16, 13 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the template's or category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this section.

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the stub template and/or category above. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the template's or category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was rename

Per [1] and to be consistent with the cat. This is the best of several flawed alternatives. -