Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Formula One/Archive 1

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User:Bobo192 proposed the following for driver articles.

Drivers

Provisional idea only - unapproved (as yet).

There should be a complete article on every driver who has completed in a Formula One race. Information in this article should be set out as follows.

..name.. (born ..month day.. ..year.., died ..month day.. ..year..) is/was a ..nationality.. ..Formula One.. driver.

• information*

And I'm thinking.. as I had set it up on the stubbed guys, there should be some kind of synopsis.

Grands Prix (as of *last race*): a starts (as of *last race*): b Pole positions (as of Race:year): c First Grand Prix: d e (where D=country/circuit and E=year) Last Grand Prix: f g (where F=country/circuit and G=year)

--Grands Prix participated in-- (change these to equals signs, and rephrase away from sloppiness)

(first Grand Prix) [Date Year (Country/Circuit Grand Prix)] [qualifying position] [qualifying time] [final race position] [points achieved in race] [xxxx (Country) Grand Prix Report]
(second Grand Prix) [Year (Country/Circuit Grand Prix)] [qualifying position] [qualifying time] [final race position] [points achieved in race] [xxxx (Country) Grand Prix Report]
... (last Grand Prix) [Year (Country/Circuit Grand Prix)] [qualifying position] [qualifying time] [final race position] [points achieved in race] [xxxx (Country) Grand Prix Report]

(complete table)

It looks nasty there, but it'll look prettier when I set the idea up. I'll show you what I have planned for one of the drivers.

(Note: In table form, this'll be sideways instead of downways)

An idea for the table

Ricardo Patrese:

Race Starts: 256 (or Races 257, if you prefer)

-1-

Race: Monaco Grand Prix 1977 (hyperlinked to race itself)
Date: May 22nd 1977 (not hyperlinked to anything)
Grid: (or Qual) 15 (not hyperlinked - or perhaps, if and when we get it set up, to the qualifying grid embedded in the race itself)
Time: 1 m 32.520 (both hyperlinked to minute (time) and second (time) in the first citation)
Posn: (or something of that sort): 9
Pnts: (in this case) 0

-*Last* (number 257, in actual fact)-

Race: Australian Grand Prix 1993
Date: November 7th 1993
Grid: (or Qual (position on start grid)): 9
Time: 1 m 16.077 s
Posn: (or something of that sort (position at end of race)): 8
Pnts: (in this case) 0

(begin table)

Headings:

Grand Prix Number
Grand Prix
Date
Qualifying Position
Qualifying Time
Grand Prix Final Position
Points in race

1
Grand Prix Of Monaco 1977
May 22nd 1977
15
1:32.560
9
0

...

257
Grand Prix Of Australia 1993
November 7th 1993
9
1:16.077
8
0

I promise I'll get to work on them soon. Read immediately below for my ideas.

Ricardo Patrese

And then at the bottom:

Pole Positions:

(start) ([year] Grand Prix of.. [circuit/location]) ([year] Grand Prix of.. [circuit/location]) (total) (end)

Victories:

(start) ([year] Grand Prix of.. [circuit/location]) ([year] Grand Prix of.. [circuit/location]) (total) (end)

I think this is worthwhile only for the single-Grand-Prix rookie kids and no-longer-running drivers (which, since I've demonstrated with dear Ricardo..!)

It got placed at the bottom, but you get the idea. Please PM me back if you feel you would like me to change this in any way.

Discussion

• I think these ideas are excellent, but having a complete list of results for every race entered by every driver might be too tall an order. An infobox on each driver page is, however, an excellent idea - it could have a few basic statistics, such as number of GP's entered, number of wins, and such. — Dan | Talk 22:17, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)

• I agree with Dan; I think that listing every result for every driver is OTT. However, I do think it is a good idea to have a standardised table of major statistics for every driver. Either way, you are doing good work. Keep it up. SamH 10:02, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)

• I also agree - listing the results of every race of a driver's career would just be too much. However, I'd welcome a table of major statistics (eg. number of races competed, number of race wins, number of pole positions, etc). Possibly an illustration of the driver's helmet design aswell? Could this be too difficult? doctorvee 16:31, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)

• Agreed... i think the stats on the Mark Webber page summarise whats needed pretty well. doctorvee, the current helmet designs are available for free for the press on the FIA Website - i guess if they are for the press, it would be fair use here? AlbinoMonkey 07:46, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)

• I was going to grab these helmet images but now I can't find them on the FIA website - any pointers? (I thought they'd look quite good alongside the country flags on the results tables - see eg 2005 San Marino Grand Prix). NickF 21:30, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Infobox

I think each circuit article should have an infobox on it listing important statistics such as lap records, etc.

An example:

Sepang International Circuit
Location	Sepang, Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia
Major events	Formula One Grand Prix; Motorcycle Grand Prix; (etc)
Circuit length	5.54 km (3.44 mi )
Lap record	1'34.223 ( Williams BMW, 2004 )

It's a bit rough-and-ready, but this is the sort of thing I'm suggesting. Any thoughts? doctorvee 16:52, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Very nice. I can't think of any improvments at the moment. SamH 17:03, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Looks perfect to me. Can't think of anything else to add to it. Speedy afterthought: Except for the fact that we should maybe say [ [ Formula One ] ] [ [Grand Prix | Grands Prix] ], instead of Grand Prix, to use the accurate French plural on the grounds that there has been more than one race there. Bobo192

Thanks for the feedback. I'll try to think of more stuff to add, as I'm sure there are. I'm worried about circuit diagrams for a start. There isn't one for all of the Formula 1 circuits on Wikipedia, and I wouldn't know where to start creating my own. Furthermore, we must remember that these circuits hold events other than Formula 1, and many circuits have more than one variation (for example, the Sepang circuit can be set up at least three different ways and there is also a go-kart track [1], so I think these should also somehow be drawn into the diagrams. doctorvee 18:14, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I think it's excellent. However, I suggest spelling out "Formula One Malaysian Grand Prix" or simply "Malaysian Grand Prix." — Dan | Talk 18:15, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Maps

Well I've been going through the Grand Prix pages putting in the infoboxes. But I've reached a bit of a dead end, as many circuits in the latter half of the calendar are missing a map. As I've said elsewhere, I wouldn't know how to go about creating my own. The person who drew up the maps which do exist appears to be quite busy with other things - he hasn't done anything on any Formula One articles since May. doctorvee 14:35, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)

• I'm willing to have a go at creating some...I think a good idea is to basically go to Photoshop or Paint or whatever imaging program you have and stick a map that already exists next to a blank pic, and try and copy it as best you can. At the moment I am busy with exams, but after that I will be free and will put much more contribution to this project. AlbinoMonkey
  • I've had a go at one for the
    A1-Ring, you can see it here - its not as good as the other ones, but I will fix it up as I get better at doing them AlbinoMonkey
    03:21, 1 Nov 2004 (UTC)
• Someone changed the map for the Chinese Grand Prix... it looks good, but since all of the others are of a different style, they should all be consistent. Go with the new one, or stick with the old, eg Japanese Grand Prix?? AlbinoMonkey
  • I think that the image in question is the only drawing we have of the Chinese Grand Prix circuit, so we should definitely keep it for now. Looking at the broader picture however, I don't think having a consistent style for the circuit drawings is really necessary; there are already different style drawings at German Grand Prix, Italian Grand Prix and Hungarian Grand Prix and they look fine to me. SamH 09:12, 1 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I would like to see a consistent style for the maps. I like the Shanghai style, but since the bold red style is far more common, I would like to see all Formula One circuit maps looking like this. I'd like to see turn names / numbers incoporated. Also, maps of all circuits at a facility would be good (eg. the six at Bahrain International Circuit - see [2]).

Apologies if this has been thrashed out already, but what is the policy with regard to drivers who had a very minor F1 career, but were extremely successful in other forms of motorsport? A good example being Tony Marsh, who competed in only five Grands Prix and never scored a point, yet is a six-times British Hillclimb champion, still competes in hillclimbs and is considerably better known today in that capacity than he is as a Formula One driver. Loganberry 23:39, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)

A decent subset Formula One drivers, it seems, never used to be Formula One drivers, but drivers who sporadically competed in Formula One races. I'll grant you that what I'm referring to are either stand-in drivers or guys who generally ply/plied their trade elsewhere. I think that articles cannot merely be limited to one part of a guy's career. In my opinion, it's as important to include Marsh's hill-climb statistics, as it is to include the fact that in nineteen-mumble, someone won the championship which got them on the first rung of the ladder.

I think the information about other forms of racing is essential. After all, we're focussing on the drivers as pertains to biographical interest here.

Whether it's enough to say, "Schumi Sr. started racing karts in 84... (rest of article, covering career in prose) and eventually came through to win his seventh championship in 2004" (sloppy phrasing, but that's the idea) or not, is up to you guys, I think. Bobo192 18:10, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)

A good point. It is a problem, I know. But I think the answer is to take the approach of Indianapolis Motor Speedway. Obviously, in F1 circles Indianapolis is best known for the F1 circuit - but in America and at Indianapolis itself the oval and the Indy 500 are far more important than the F1 race. The article contains just a section for the Grand Prix. Similarly, if you look at the Toyota article, there is a separate Formula One section in it. A sticking point might be with somebody like Cristiano da Matta. He is probably most famous worldwide as the F1 driver, but he has gone back to Indycars of his own accord. I think a modest 'infobox' should be placed in a separate section for his Formula One career aswell, secondary to his overall career. doctorvee 10:01, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)

OK, I thought I could get the ball rolling on a shorter infobox for drivers. I've taken the stats from Schumacher's article to come up with this. It's just a rough idea and as you can see, my table editing skills aren't brilliant. Certainly, it would be good if we could get free images of driver's helmets to pretty the infoboxes up. Please feel free to improve it as you wish. SamH 10:23, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)

• That's lookin' really cool. Just had to correct a typo (hope you'll forgive me!). Maybe for the no-longer-running drivers, we can also include the statistic (after First Grand Prix) of Last Grand Prix (and after First win) of Last win.

• Thoughts/suggestions?

• just in reply to what SamH mentioned above in regards to helmets - i mentioned above that they are available from the FIA website to media, i guess this is the media and it would be ok to use them. otherwise, they are not too difficult to make if you can find a decent picture of it...i've made one here - its Timo Glocks, my first try, i think its alright...a bit non-lifelike though....AlbinoMonkey 08:52, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)

• • I presume this is the page that you are referring to but I can't see anything about copyright info on those images. If they are freely available to the media then I suppose we might be able to use them, but I have very limited knowledge of copyright law so I'm not sure. SamH 12:46, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)
    • Good point - the same page is also under the heading of "Press Information" - and the file is freely available to download. However, I know nothing about copyright and I wouldn't want to annoy Bernie (he is apparently suing Jackie Stewart for disparaging comments about the Silverstone affair! [3]) AlbinoMonkey 14:47, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)

• I've added championship results to the table. Is this too much or not? SamH 13:44, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)
  • I think it's a bit much, and that each season can be covered by the article. Rdsmith4— Dan | Talk 22:02, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I've created my own take on the infobox. I've tried to keep it as similar as possible to the Constructors infobox for the sake of continuity. doctorvee 22:59, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)

• In line with the constructors and races infoboxes I've made a Template:F1 driver for the drivers. I've simply copied User:Ed g2s's infobox as I don't have the skills to make my own from scratch. SamH 23:11, 31 Oct 2004 (UTC)
• I've done another one for former drivers that has more relevant info:
  Template:Former F1 driver. SamH
  09:17, 1 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Grands Prix

Infobox

	Circuit de Catalunya
Laps	65
Circuit length	4.63 miles )
Race length	305.26 miles )
2004 Winner	1:27'32.841 (Michael Schumacher, Ferrari)
2004 Pole	1'15.022 (Michael Schumacher, Ferrari)
2004 Fastest lap	1'17.450 (Michael Schumacher, Ferrari)

We can't leave the Grands Prix out!

Hey, I like it! All these are great. Incidentally, where did you get the lap record information and whatnot? Rdsmith4— Dan | Talk 16:01, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I've been using Formula1.com, FIA.com and a supplement that came with The Guardian. I don't think the supplement is very accurate though, so when implementing these properly I will always check with another source. Lap records can be found on Formula1.com by clicking on the circuit you want information for (eg. [4]). doctorvee 16:51, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Very good. Again, I can't think of any improvments. SamH 16:38, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I've added the infobox to Australian Grand Prix. I've added a couple of things to it. I also added the Formula One template, but it looks a little bit uneasy stuck in the middle of the page like that. Thoughts? doctorvee 17:30, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Looks fine to me. There are other articles, such as rail transport, where there are templates in the middle of the article. SamH 18:08, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Sorry, I took it out before I saw your message because I figured it was a mistake - I don't think Template:Formula One belongs on any pages but the ones linked on the template itself, simply because the article and the infobox already link to Formula One, and I think the template is rather redundant. Rdsmith4— Dan | Talk 19:19, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I've added the infobox to Austrian Grand Prix... two points though:

• The 2003 race was scheduled for 71 laps, but only raced 69 of them (i can't remember why..) - so I just put the scheduled laps and distance in there.
• I just created the circuit image quickly then, it will do for now i guess, but it is not of the standard of the other ones, such as Image:Australiagprix.png.

AlbinoMonkey 03:21, 1 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Yeah, the infobox poses a problem for obsolete grands prix. Information such as the number of laps and hence race distance often change anyway, so I think these statistics should only be included in the infobox for grands prix which still exist. I think obsolete grands prix need their own infobox, or perhaps none at all. doctorvee 15:32, 1 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Past winners

There are some inconsistencies with the tables of past winners on the grand prix articles. For instance, if you look at

I think it is worth distinguishing non-championship events from Formula One grands prix. But I think non-championship events should be in pink, not the other way about. I think the most recent winner should be at the top. Drivers' nationalities should be put in a separate cell, and they should be linked to. And I think the circuit name should be used (although do we know names for circuits which were used 60 / 70 / 80 years ago?). What does everybody else think? doctorvee 11:21, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I agree that we need standardisation of these tables. My feelings on the issues you raised are:

• non-championship events should be in pink
• most recent winner at the top
• link to the circuit not the place name
• nationalities shouldn't be included; personally I don't see the relevance.

SamH 11:39, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Seeing as nobody has objected, I'll begin to sort these out using your guidelines. doctorvee 14:26, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I think that the circuit should certainly be linked, but the link itself should be the common shortened version (I think most all circuits have a 'nickname'), i.e. [[Melbourne Grand Prix Circuit|Melbourne]] or [[Autodromo Enzo e Dino Ferrari|Imola]]. Rdsmith4— Dan | Talk 14:52, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Fair enough. There is a problem with using the names of circuits. I only had to go as far back as Adelaide and I was stuck. I also can't find out the full names of early winners. I suppose we just have to do the best we can. doctorvee 14:57, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Agreed. Some (by no means, and I truly mean that, all) of the names of the early winners are known and available (he says, meaning he knows them off the top of his head).

And speaking of full names of circuits, are we trying to imply that there is some kind of dispute of definity in some of the names? It strikes me that it sounds very much in the same vein as using terms like "M******o Magyar Nagydíj" instead of "Turkish Grand Prix".

Sincere apologies if I'm not on the right lines. It's been a long morning..!

PS. Apologies for not getting to this topic quicker. This is all beautifully-crafted work. If we could keep this up, that would be the best. Bobo192 06:54, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)

...and of course the constructors aswell. doctorvee 16:01, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Looks good, but Grove needs redirecting. I can't remember for the life of me where to, though, because there are a number of Grove placenames on this Wikipedia. Slightly more expert knowledge, anyone? Bobo192

I've just looked it up - its Grove, Oxfordshire, which unfortunately doesn't have a page at the moment. I left the link alone.AlbinoMonkey

It can be fixed when it is added to the Williams article itself. doctorvee 11:05, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)

This is looking good. With the last race of the season coming up, I'm going to carry out my regular work on getting the article ready and posted, tables and all. I have a week's break coming up, during which time I'm hopefully going to get more work done on (hopefully all) the Grands Prix before I go back and find myself in deep water again. Bobo192 12:06, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Also, for the Debut information, should the link be to the actual race, not the Grand Prix and the year? That is, 1978 Argentine Grand Prix instead of Argentine Grand Prix, 1978...this is assuming that eventually each individual race will have a results/review page, like 2004 Monaco Grand Prix. AlbinoMonkey

I've removed the car numbers row as it's duplicated in the race drivers row. I've also fixed the debut link. SamH 14:13, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Speaking of which, at this present moment, the debut Grand Prix link is printed as 1979, but going to 1978. Can somebody please fix this, as time is currently snapping at my heels. Bobo192 06:56, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)

According to their website it should be 1978, I think I've fixed it... AlbinoMonkey 08:25, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Regarding the team logos, many teams have two logos - one for promotional stuff, and another which is placed on the nose of the car. You can see an example of the Williams logos pretty much side-by-side here: [5]. Which should be used in the infobox? Another worthwhile addition to the infobox might be the car livery, since we are adding drivers' helmet designs to their infoboxes. doctorvee 14:22, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I'd say we should go with the "promotional stuff" logo. Other than that, can we start adding these to constructors' articles? SamH 16:06, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Yup, I'll start adding them now. Rdsmith collected good Ferrari and Williams logos, so perhaps these should be left to him. If any changes need to be made to the infobox from now on, they can just evolve in the articles themselves. doctorvee 17:23, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Most of the teams (i haven't checked all of them) have their 2004 drivers listed in the infobox, but

I think we should change all the infoboxes to 2005 info as soon as we have it. SamH 10:02, 3 Nov 2004 (UTC)

And for teams like

Williams, Jordan and Minardi? Should we put unknown or something for the drivers. Also about the chassis and engines...we know what they will be called (ie McLaren's MP4-19 will obviously be the MP4-20 for 2005), but they haven't actually been created yet...what to do? AlbinoMonkey

10:21, 3 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Also, out of interest, where did you get all those logos? Particularly the McLaren one, I've never seen that before. It looks more like something they would have had in the 1980s! doctorvee 21:48, 30 Oct 2004 (UTC)

'Twasn't me, though I'd been planning on creating that sort of template (see User:Rdsmith4/Experiments). User:Ed g2s did it all, and I think his template is a lot prettier than mine. Rdsmith4— Dan | Talk 22:24, 30 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I've made one for grands prix too - see

Template:F1 race. — Dan | Talk

23:16, 30 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Yeah, I was hoping User:Ed g2s would see that, but I'm not sure he's aware of the WikiProject.. Nice grand prix templates; the Formula One articles are really coming along now! doctorvee 16:55, 31 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I think there should be something about safety regulations somewhere - either in the

I think it would fit best under Formula One regulations. Rdsmith4— Dan | Talk 03:17, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC)

OK - there is heaps of info available at the FIA Website here, if I don't get around to it for a while. The 'regulations' section has sections on driver equipment (helmet, fireproof suits), in-car equipment (fire extinguisher), tyre barrier impact specs, and there is heaps more under the 2005 Technical regulations page. AlbinoMonkey 05:31, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I added the [[Category:Formula One engine manufacturers]] category, as a sub to [[Category:Formula One constructors]]. Hope this makes sense... Wanted to update you folks here since you're the closest to these pages :) --Wolf530 20:55, Nov 30, 2004 (UTC)

I had a go at expanding the Christian Klien stub, mainly using information from his own website and GrandPrix.com, but other sources as well. It's a bit bad, as some of the things just run straight into each other (like he raced in one category, finished here. then he went onto something else, and finished there). Also I didn't know what to do with the section headings, because it looked a bit dodgy without any. I can't find a picture of him where I don't need permission to use it, so if someone could find one it would be great. I'm a bit unhappy with the quote impressive speed, because it sounds a bit biased (although I'm not a fan of his...). If anyone can make suggestions or improvements, please do so - its the first major change I've made to a page... but it needed doing. Thanks. --AlbinoMonkey 12:42, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Does anyone think we need a page dedicated to F1 records? I have created one on my userpage (here) as a preliminary example. BillCook, 21 Dec 2004

I don't think there is a page dedicated to it, someone's got a list of M.Schumacher's on his page - but yours looks good. Thumbs up, --AlbinoMonkey 00:20, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Having just stumbled across these pages, I'd like to make a bit of a change to the category structure and figured I'd run it through here to make sure it didn't catch anyone by surprise. Considering the large number of nation-specific articles in Category:Formula One race reports (and their associated "main" articles in Category:Formula One Grands Prix) I propose to create individual categories for each nation that has a significant number of such articles. So for example Category:Argentine Grand Prix would hold Argentine Grand Prix as well as all of the Argentine race reports, and would be subcategorized under Category:Motor racing in Argentina and Category:Formula One Grands Prix. All the race reports would still remain in Category:Formula One race reports. Doing this would make it easy to stick all these articles under their respective national sports categories. If nobody objects, I'll go ahead and do all the grunt work myself. Bryan 07:49, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Sounds like a good idea to me. — Dan | Talk 15:50, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I'm having a newbie moment... I guess it's like a blonde moment, but in a male. Anyway, how do I join this group? I've been updating many driver bios and I like your templates, but I still think that apart from them there should be some text to accompany them, since there's much more to the driver than the actual template (i.e. what he did before and after F1, dob, dod, etc).

Diego440 15:09, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Right, the template box is in addition to the article. It's just meant to put all the important statistics in one place. To join, just add your name under "members". — Dan | Talk 15:50, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Once again. I was checking the former driver templates, and I think the template would look good for former GOOD drivers, but there are many drivers who didn't accomplish much, and the template would look to cluttered with zeroes. Nevertheless, did a new template for former drivers, perhaps you'll like it more, or not. I innovated a bit and included "highest qualifying position" and "highest finish position", nationality, teams, and points. What do you think?

• I've just posted about this situation too. That template is much better for some drivers. Hedley 15:38, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Diego440 15:46, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)

For future consideration, we need more info on parallel Formulas, such as

• I agree, i've started adding primitive stubs on drivers who never raced Formula One, or who tested and never got an article. I'm hoping to expand into series articles too, as right now coverage is poor (See what doesn't exist:
  British Formula Three, Swedish Touring Car Championship..) Hedley
  02:12, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)

The former driver template is good for drivers like Ayrton Senna who won lots of races, but its not much use to drivers who didn't have much success during their career. I have just added it to an article i'm working on, Esteban Tuero, and having a list of 0's doesn't look very good. The 'First win', 'Last win' also looks stupid there as he never won any races.

Maybe there should be an extra template for drivers who weren't too successful? A 'best finish' line might be better than the first/last win part for drivers like Tuero. Hedley 15:37, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Esteban Tuero. I think that it includes whats necessary - Pictures, early career, his F1 career, and post F1 career. Maybe a bit exhaustive for what a 'typical good article' should look like but nevertheless, i'd like to know if it can be improved.

I've not read the article yet, but some references are needed, and the images need source and copyright info. SamH|Talk 20:54, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Upon consultation with admins i've been given the go-ahead, and have gone ahead in adding a new stub for motorsport. With other sports such as cricket and American football having stubs motorsport clearly needed one, and I thought i'd post here for anyone writing F1-related stubs.

The new tag is

This Auto racing-related article is a stub. You can help Wikipedia by expanding it.

• v
• t
• e

, and it covers all forms of motorsport. To use it just type {{autoracing-stub}} at the end of the article. Hedley 23:27, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC)

And now, upon recommendation, there is an F1 stub tag for articles related to F1. You can use it by typing {{F1-stub}} at the end of a stub article.

And if you want to keep it, you'd better use it. Since there had been <30 articles listed on it, there was a suggestion at Wikipedia:WikiProject Stub sorting to have it wiped (along with several other "unneeded" categories). I found about 75 articles in an hour which should have had {{F1-stub}} messages and didn't, and I'm sure there's a ton more out there. - SoM 17:17, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

What's the correct link for the Amon team from the 1970s? Several pages have linked to Amon, which doesn't even have a disambiguating link to the right place. A few others link direct to Chris Amon, which only briefly mentions the team. --ScottDavis 11:28, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Probably best to create a new article for it.

Amon (Formula One team) perhaps? doctorvee

19:35, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I've just made the article thats on the Open Tasks box which was under 'Needs to be created', Christian Horner. Do I go ahead and remove it from the template, or do I wait for someone else to do it? I'm not too sure. Hedley 23:34, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Yes, feel free to remove it yourself, and feel free to add more requests in its place. — Dan | Talk 04:02, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Hello. I'm just stopping in here because I noticed a lot of these pages have the term 'climax' wikilinked. I have no idea what it means in racing terms, but the links are going to a disambig, which has made it one of the

Ah it's probably links in the race results to Coventry Climax... I haven't got time to do it for a while, but will have a go if its not all changed by the time I get a chance. AlbinoMonkey ^(Talk) 06:46, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Seems to have lost its format somewhere. I've tagged it for cleanup but the usual infoboxes don't seem present right now. Hedley 12:41, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I'm after some advice on this section. (see for example Jenson Button#Complete Formula One results)

• Is this now the accepted way of presenting a driver's racing history? (Personally I prefer it to anything else I've seen)
• When a driver hasn't raced, should the race really not be linked? I tried putting it in italics -- see Nick Heidfeld, year 2000, race 8, Canada -- but it's not as clear as it is when not linked. Compare to Jenson's 2003 Monaco - but it is nice to be able to go straight to the race.
• Should we put blank lines when a driver is out of F1 for a few years (eg Alexander Wurz)?

NickF 21:57, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

• I have some further ideas on this. I think a coloured grid shows results quite clearly, for example this shows Michael Schumacher's results over the last 2 years (with a "fake" 3rd place in Germany 04 to show the bronze colour!):

I'm away for a couple of weeks but if this looks good let me know and I will update / add results grids to drivers when I am back. NickF 22:52, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)

• Looks good, but how does a viewer know the key? Also, the silver is too light (partially colourblind will struggle with it) and 'Retired' would be better as 'Did not finish'.

There should maybe be a 'DNQ' availability too, as for some drivers their whole career was in and out of DNQ's which are otherwise noted as did not compete. Sospiri in Australia '97 is different is a did not compete for Sato in Malaysia '04, or a did not compete for Schumacher during '99. Hedley 16:08, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)

In the case of a driver not competing for a few years, like in Wurz' case, the line should not be there at all. Hedley 16:11, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I think this is an excellent idea; a small link to a "legend" would solve the problem of reader confusion. However, I don't quite know where the legend should be placed - it's not conventional to link to a WikiProject from the main namespace. Should an exception be made in this case, and the legend placed at Wikipedia:WikiProject Formula One/Driver results legend? — Dan | Talk 18:12, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)

• How does this now look? I've added separate colours for DNQ and DNF, made silver and bronze darker, and I think the legend could go on each page, as long as we make it small. Not sure if this could maybe be a template for consistent inclusion? NickF 20:51, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

Looks great, how long until we implement? My .02 regarding the legend, one could always call it {{

Hmm, just thought of one more colour category: Disqualified. I'm sure that Button @ Imola and Montoya at Canada can't of been the only instances of drivers being DSQ'ed. If not, does it merit it's own colour, or should it be lumped in with DNQ? (Red) -slowpokeiv 00:55, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

DSQ could perhaps be black? doctorvee 01:48, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

like this?: -slowpokeiv 17:48, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

OK, seeing lack of dispute, and in the spirit of

I had wondered that myself. I think the television graphics also use the Union flag. I think it is best to use the Union flag. doctorvee 17:31, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Good question, but ask a Scottsman, and they would probably call themself Scottish, not British or English, and as such, the Scottish flag might be more appropriate. However, for Button and any other English drivers, the Union Jack might be better, or at least more recognizable, in my opinion. slowpokeiv 20:37, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Uhm, you're working on the assumption that most scottish people don't want to be part of Britain and most english people do, neither of which are neccessarily true. Regardless of the accuracy of that, I don't think we can just cherrypick the drivers views to decide which flag we should use. Whether they want to be called Scottish/English or whatever isn't really relevent in my opinion, if there was a hawaiian driver would we fly the hawaiian flag for them? -- Joolz 22:14, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I think it should be the Union Jack - that's what's flown if they're on the podium, that's what's used on the TV graphics (and their passports probably say "British"!). And that's what I put on the 2005 San Marino Grand Prix when I first added the flags... NickF 18:15, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I’ll agree that one can't (or shouldn’t) pick and choose on a driver by driver basis. Never the less,

formalized in 1707) Separate countries should qualify for separate flags in the wikipedia, in my opinion. Whether the FIA recognizes this or not should be irrelevant. If however, it is determined that we do not wish to make that distinction, I beg you pardon my intrusion. slowpokeiv

19:09, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

It depends on how you define "country". Scotland is much more of a nation rather than a country. If you read the first sentence of the country article, Scotland does not fulfill all of those criteria. The drivers in question will carry British, not Scottish or English, passports. doctorvee 20:02, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Good question. How do we define Nationality? (a required field in the former drivers template.) Should English (

5, 6), and Northern Irish (7) be considered Nationalities, or should all drivers GBR be classified British?(8, 9, 10) Currently, there are examples of all four "Nationalities", which in my mind is incorrect. However, as I have no connections to the United Kingdom closer than John of Gaunt, I feel unqualified to make the decision as to which is more correct. (For that matter, it may be as I am so far removed from the situation, that I am not seeing what is obvious to one less removed.) Nevertheless, as my record has shown a distinct tendancy to standardize articles, I will stick to cleaning up these articles in the direction chosen, whichever direction that may be. slowpokeiv

14:16, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I am a Scotsman, and I'd rather have the Union Jack thank you very much. doctorvee 18:38, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I'd agree with the Union Jack for all simply because thats whats flown on the podium. AlbinoMonkey ^(Talk) 01:07, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Looks like Union Flag (or Jack) is the majority decision; I will change the 2005 United States Grand Prix to reflect this, and presumably this will be carried forward. NickF 21:02, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Not that many people voted. And changing halfway through a season is not an especially good idea. Personally, I think that the Saltire/St George's Cross should be used as appropriate - SoM 22:21, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

There was no vote, as far as I can see a poll would be unneccessary because most people agree that the Union flag should be used - and the simple solution to changing halfway through a season is to just change all the other races. -- Joolz 23:16, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I prefer to see St. George, but it should be the Union flag for this. violet/riga (t) 23:46, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Agreed, based on the simple reason that if a British driver gets a podium position, the Union flag is raised, rather than the St George's Cross or St Andrew's Saltire. That alone should make it an obvious decision. --

Francs2000 | Talk

For what it's worth, Coulthard's helmet has had St. Andrew's cross on it for some time. I think that Jenson has had St. George's cross on his helmet at some point, but he seems to have worn the Union Jack more recently. Pburka 00:02, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Button has always used a modified version of the Union Jack (modified to create a clever 'JB' symbol within it). Drivers' helmets are not an indication of their nationality, otherwise a flag with a pink squiggle would have been raised on the podium when Jacques Villeneuve won races. doctorvee 15:45, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Button used the same style but applied it to St. George's Cross at the 2004 British GP. violet/riga (t) 16:02, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Run a helmet up the flagpole and see if anyone salutes it. (SEWilco 20:56, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC))

My point was that Coulthard, at least, seems to self-identify as Scottish rather than British. But I think it's probably not the driver's decision to make. Pburka 16:46, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

As I was looking up some drivers, I came across the page for

Mike MacDowel has now survived the VfD. Pburka 2 July 2005 20:14 (UTC)

I started to edit this article to make it obviously worth keeping. Part-way through Google research, I found this page, claiming he is the same person as

Guenther Bechem, which that article also says. Does this project have anyone who can confirm or refute this? Either the Bechem article needs to be corrected, or the two articles merged. --ScottDavis

3 July 2005 08:43 (UTC)

yep, its the same person. see here and here... merge them under the Bechem name, as this appears to be his actual name. AlbinoMonkey ^(Talk) 4 July 2005 07:52 (UTC)

I've just started the

I ran across a table in my favourite Formula One mag, (is there more than one quality F1 mag? if so, if someone would let me know on my chat page...) and was thinking, the table they have in there looks pretty nice. The question I pose, would a complete results table, in addition to the current table already in place, be a good idea? I don't see anything wrong with the table aready in place, and I don't suggest altering it in any way. What I do suggest, is a quick table listing all drivers in a given year, and the results therin. One benefit would be that you could see at a glance exactly who did what for the entire season, for example, that both Heidfeld and Trulli had three podiums, but not a victory. One detriment that I can think of, is that it might be a touch bulky. I've quickly whipped up a (very) rough representation of my idea, and placed it in my sandbox, but for the reason of size, I am hesitant to add it to this talk page, but will if requested or desired. -slowpokeiv 15:49, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

My feeling is that it would be easier to read quickly if the positions they finished in were shown in the table, rather than the points they were awarded, i'm surprised there isn't such a table already though, looks good! -- Joolz 20:07, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

I like the idea of it, but it takes up too much vertical space right now. Perhaps stripping the names down to surname only, and teams to manufacturer only, would prevent word wrap. I think it might also be nice to have the non-points-finishing positions be faded out in some way, thus the points positions stand out. violet/riga (t) 20:17, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

I agree the width issue is a problem (it's a problem for me on some other F1 tables around too, actually) - i think it should be ordered by points rather than No, and infact, the number column could be dropped entirely -- Joolz 20:27, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

Are teams really necessary? That info is already on the season page, in the Drivers and constructors section. The only reason I included teams was because the first table I found online had it, and it was just as easy to leave it in. Anyways, how does take two look? Still too wide? (currently at a wide monitor, width currently not a problem here.) -slowpokeiv 21:15, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

I like it - reminds me of the "pull-out-and-keep" tables you used to get in mags (maybe still do?) - you could possibly integrate the colours from #Driver - "Complete Formula One results" section? NickF 19:16, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

OK, technicolor version, how does take 3 look? Added race listing at bottom, as on this monitor, it was a touch too tall... Also, is blank OK for DSQ/EX, or should they be coloured? (I'm split on this, part of me thinks that it should be another color, part thinks that blank is OK) -slowpokeiv 01:10, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

It's looking good, I would suggest the drivers be ordered by points rather than number though -- Joolz 01:50, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

Seconded... take four looks very good! AlbinoMonkey ^(Talk) 07:13, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

Indeed, I think it's just about ready to be put into action, don't you? The only other anomaly I can see is Klien has "-" where he didn't race, but Liuzzi doesn't, I'm not sure if that's correct. -- Joolz 15:35, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

It looks great, but I would suggest a change for the colors: Make the silver color brighter, and switch the colors for DNF and DNQ. -Fred Bradstadt 16:31, July 27, 2005 (UTC)

Looks very good to me. violet/riga (t) 16:48, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

Looks good! - [[Nick C 17:12, 27 July 2005 (UTC}

Re: Color, As the intention is to conform to colors mentioned earlier (in #Driver - "Complete Formula One results" section), that would an issue to take up there. (silver had been intentionally darkened, and in the long run, DNQ might be more severe?) Re: Klien/Liuzzi, I placed dashes to demote when the primary driver of a car did not race, and placed as if Klien was primary driver of the 15. I understand that the 15 is an unusual car circumstance, so if there should be dashes in both, or neither, or as is, I don't know. -slowpokeiv 17:24, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

I like the way you're going with Take 4. I don't see the need to have dashes at all. The farther back you go on years, the notion of "primary" driver didn't arise. If a driver was injured or excluded, he would just be replaced by another. Drivers were fired mid-season, a team would switch drivers three or four times in one season, drivers would drive for two or three teams in the same year, etc. Before 1982 and the Concorde Agreement, there were even privateer drivers and teams who entered only a handful of races per season. -- Pc13 14:34, July 28, 2005 (UTC)

Added to article as a template, is a major addition to the article - compliments to Slowpokeiv. Any changes should be minor from now on and can be implemented while part of the article. Mark83 12:19, 30 July 2005 (UTC)

I have one problem with adding as template in this form, that is, F1 driver standings is to generic of a term. The stated intention is to have this be a table for each year, and as such, that would not work. Further, it doesn't make sense to have a template for only one page. I would suggest, however, to have a template for the colour legend, and the rest of the results in the article itself. -slowpokeiv 18:09, 30 July 2005 (UTC)

One last note, I think that it makes more sense to place info under Grands Prix, underneath the expanded listings of drivers, instead of under Drivers and Constructors. -slowpokeiv 18:09, 30 July 2005 (UTC)

Perhaps this is an inapproptiate use of a template — my logic was that as the syntax is huge it would make editing

2005 Formula One season

difficult. Also given that the table must be updated at least 19 times a year it is easier to navigate just the template page than the mass of characters which would confront an editor in the edit box on the article page.

If it is agreed that it should stay as a template in the article I have no problem with it being moved, e.g. to 2005 F1 driver standings (or the equivalent). I won't object to it being integrated into the article and deleting the template but would draw your attention again to my comments about ease of editing. Mark83 19:37, 30 July 2005 (UTC)

I agree that it is cumbersome... :( If you take a look at take one, it was a lot easier to edit, but unfortunatly, when the front end became easier to read (colour), the back end became a nightmare. Perhaps a temporary solution (on a year by year basis) would be to have a template F1 current season standings, and once the year is over, to paste the contents of the template into the article. (when the mass majority of editing would be finished...) -slowpokeiv 20:21, 30 July 2005 (UTC)

That sounds more like a permanent solution to me - and a good one! We get the benefit of the advantages a template brings (edit wise) and by using it year by year and pasting it in we don't have to waste another template each year.