Talk:Penang

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Further improvements for GA status

This article can still be further improved for it to be of GA standard. Will get to it soon. In the meantime, any form of assistance or suggestions from editors are greatly appreciated.

Based on other articles on sub-division level territories, such as Hong Kong, Sabah and Sarawak, the content on NGOs, military installations, galleries and even the state's firsts are not an absolute requirement for a GA. Vnonymous (talk) 10:58, 2 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 17:07, 7 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

"international honour" section is mostly all bad

The "International honor and utilities" section is mostly, but not entirely, terrible. Most entries are low-effort tourist pablum list-of entries from random newspapers, websites, and magazines. These "list of places with the best street food" or "best places to retire that you've never heard of" listicles are throwaway filler that newspapers pad their pages with to sell travel ads. There's no honor to be had from being listed there, and none of these entries should be listed here. They are factually and encyclopedically worthless. But there's a few entries in this list that are notable - really the two UNESCO entries. That's all, really. And neither has a reference. I'm inclined to just remove all the rest, source the UNESCO ones, and I think the article would be entirely the better for it. -- Finlay McWalter··–·Talk 20:02, 15 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

GA review invalidated

The GA review in 2018 was conducted by

WT:GAN.) BlueMoonset (talk) 01:47, 17 April 2022 (UTC)[reply
]

IPA needed?

It looks like the oral spelling of Penang could be in different targets, some call it Pen-ang and some Pe(e)-nang. Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 04:04, 20 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

GA Review

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Nominator: HundenvonPenang (talk · contribs)

Reviewer: ZKang123 (talk · contribs) 09:32, 26 March 2024 (UTC) Reviewing per request. I hope I'll have enough time to look thoroughly.[reply]

Preliminary spot checks

  • I'm unsure about the copyright status of the flag and insignia. They seem to be copyrighted under Malaysian law.
    • The Commons file appears to be in public domain. There is the Malaysian Copyright Act 1987, but flags of subnational divisions (states and federal territories) are exempt (having gone through the Commons files for other such flags). hundenvonPG (talk) 12:49, 26 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • I checked with a few others. Malaysian government works are only copyrighted for 50 years, so by now any copyright of these two should have long expired. Though the new insignia is from 1988... unless it's considered a derivative of the original...--ZKang123 (talk) 13:34, 26 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      • Quite possibly, seeing the heraldry being largely similar to the flag (though I'm no legal expert). The other thing was, by comparison, the insignias for Sabah and Sarawak, and the Federal Territories flag were adopted after 1987 (much more recent theoretically-speaking, but most likely they are in public use in a similar sense, hence them being in Commons). hundenvonPG (talk) 14:45, 26 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Earwig showed no immediate issues.

Lead

  • "on the northwest coast of Peninsular Malaysia, by the Malacca Strait." -> "along the Malacca Strait" and remove comma.
  • "RM451 billion" -> Include
    Template:ToUSD
    value.
  • "primarily through the Penang International Airport, the nation's third busiest." I find this statement a little unclear. Do you mean like goods imported/exported through the airport? Also busiest in terms of what?
    •  Fixed Thanks for pointing out the oversight. In actual fact, PIA is third busiest in passenger traffic. Rewritten as such: "primarily through the Penang International Airport which is also the nation's third busiest in passenger traffic" hundenvonPG (talk) 12:49, 26 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

More to come.--ZKang123 (talk) 09:32, 26 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hey ZKang123. Glad to see your feedback. Will be making amendments as we go along. hundenvonPG (talk) 12:49, 26 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

History

  • I say the "Prehistory" and "Early history" sections are short enough to be merged under "Early history".
    •  Fixed Concurred. Each was just a para long. Merged both under "Early history". hundenvonPG (talk) 14:45, 26 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The Cherok Tok Kun megalith, uncovered at Bukit Mertajam in 1845, features Pali inscriptions that suggest the Hindu-Buddhist Bujang Valley civilisation, which was based in present-day Kedah, had established its authority over certain parts of Seberang Perai by the 6th century."
    • I felt this chunk should be rewritten to focus more on the fact that the civilisation had authority on the island. Like: "Pali inscriptions on the Cherok Tok Kun megalith suggest the Hindu-Buddhist Bujang Valley civilisation, which was based in present-day Kedah, had authority over certain parts of Seberang Perai by the 6th century."
      •  Fixed Rewritten as per suggestion to put focus on the mainland being part of Bujang Valley. Though there isn't archaeological evidence of the island coming under that civilisation. hundenvonPG (talk) 14:45, 26 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is it known why even after independence, Malaysia still maintains the annual payments? Seems like a future rabbit hole of research... Especially I heard about disputes between Kedah and Penang.
    • To my knowledge, this is rather opaque. I haven't come across publications touching on the "why". Only that the payments continue to this day (they are made by the federal government, not the Penang state government). On another note, it has inflamed relations between the two states (Kedah persistently demanding larger annual payments and laying claim on Penang, which in the current political climate is easily turned into "ammunition" by the opposing parties governing both states). hundenvonPG (talk) 14:45, 26 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "taking maritime trade from Dutch posts in the region" – "diverting maritime commerce away from Dutch outposts in the area."
  • "By 1808, a local government for George Town was in place, whilst the establishment of the Supreme Court of Penang marked the birth of Malaysia's modern judiciary." – "By 1808, George Town had established its local government, while the founding of the Supreme Court of Penang marked the birth of Malaysia's modern judiciary."
  • "In 1826, Penang, Singapore and Malacca were incorporated into the Straits Settlements, with George Town as the capital. However, Singapore soon supplanted George Town as Southeast Asia's premier entrepôt. In 1832, Singapore replaced George Town as the capital of the Straits Settlements."
    • Suggest shortening and merging this part to the previous paragraph (or the latter paragraph).
    • "In 1826, Penang was the capital of the Straits Settlements which included Singapore and Malacca. As Singapore soon supplanted George Town as the region's premier entrepôt, Singapore became the capital instead in 1832."
    •  Fixed Rephrased and merged with previous para as per suggestion. hundenvonPG (talk) 14:45, 26 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The population growth also created social problems, such as inadequate sanitation and health facilities, as well as rampant crime, with the latter culminating in street violence and rioting in 1867."
    • "However, the population growth created social problems such as inadequate sanitation, health facilities, and rampant crime, culminating in street violence and rioting in 1867."
  • "Sun, in particular, chose George Town as the headquarters for the Tongmenghui in Southeast Asia". I don't think the rest of the sentence is as relevant in the scope of this article. But I would elaborate a bit of how the Tongmenghui was an anti-Qing republican organisation, and add when Sun chose George Town as headquarters.
    •  Fixed Point taken. Rewritten sentence, making it succinct and more towards Tongmenghui's role in overthrowing the Qing dynasty. hundenvonPG (talk) 14:45, 26 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

More to come.--ZKang123 (talk) 13:19, 26 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • For ref 51, is there a better source to attribute to the sentence about Penang's involvement in WW1?
    •  Fixed Concurred. Replaced with Andrew Barber's cite. hundenvonPG (talk) 15:50, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "on 19 December 1941, after suffering days of aerial attacks." "on 19 December 1941 after daily aerial attacks."
  • "was put to use as a major submarine base" – "was converted/reused/used as a..."
  • "After Japan's surrender, British marines launched Operation Jurist on 3 September 1945 to retake Penang Island, making George Town the first settlement in Malaya to be liberated from the Japanese."
    • This sentence is a bit odd; I understand it's more of the British reassuming control from the Japanese government.
    • "Following Japan's surrender, George Town was the first Malayan settlement liberated by British marines through Operation Jurist on 3 September 1945."
      •  Fixed Rephrased similarly. Though according to Barber's book, British forces that participated were still uncertain at that point (days after the surrender) if the Japanese would put up resistance. The marines were to call in naval gun support if resistance was encountered, only to find a disciplined Japanese handover upon landing. hundenvonPG (talk) 15:50, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Also ref 52 "Barber, Andrew (2010). Penang At War : A History of Penang During and Between the First and Second World Wars 1914–1945. AB&B. ISBN 9789834337230." – it would further benefit if you are able to provide the page numbers through inline citations.
  • "This made George Town the first city within the Federation of Malaya, and by extension, Malaysia. " – This sentence requires attribution
    •  Fixed Shifted citation from Wong to the end of the sentence. hundenvonPG (talk) 15:50, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "George Town was a free port since colonial times, but its status was rescinded by the Malaysian federal government in 1969." – "George Town's status as a free port was rescinded by the..."
  • "the then Chief Minister Lim Chong Eu " – Remove "the then"
  • Similarly for ref 49 "Daniel Goh, P. S. (2014). "Between History and Heritage: Post-Colonialism, Globalisation, and the Remaking of Malacca, Penang and Singapore" (PDF). Trans-Regional and -National Studies of Southeast Asia.", please also provide page numbers to the various attributions.
  • In fact I say most of the book sources used throughout the article needs page numbers.
  • "masterminded the creation of" – would just say "established"
  • "However, persistent brain drain, exacerbated by federal policies that favoured the development of Kuala Lumpur, meant that Penang was no longer at the forefront of the country's economy by the 21st century.[49][67] This, coupled with the deteriorating state of affairs in general, such as incoherent urban planning, poor traffic management and the dilapidation of George Town's heritage enclave due to the repeal of the Rent Control Act in 2001, led to simmering discontent within Penang's society"
    • "Persistent brain drain, aggravated by federal policies prioritizing the growth of Kuala Lumpur, resulted in Penang losing its leading position in the national economy by the 21st century. This decline, compounded by various issues including incoherent urban planning, poor traffic management and the dilapidation of George Town's historic district following the repeal of the Rent Control Act in 2001, contributed to growing dissatisfaction within Penang society."
    •  Fixed Sounds good. Rewritten para. hundenvonPG (talk) 15:50, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • For the paragraph: "In response, George Town's civil societies..." reword to: "In response, civil societies in George Town mobilized public support to rejuvenate the city. Resentment against the Barisan Nasional (BN) administration led to the Pakatan Rakyat bloc (now Pakatan Harapan) rising to power through the 2008 state elections. Efforts to preserve George Town's heritage architecture led to the city's historical core being designated as a UNESCO World Heritage Site in 2008/that year."
  • Any further history since 2008?
    • In terms of pivotal events, not much. From this resident's perspective, it's more of a period of economic growth and stability; 2008 was the last watershed moment. Penang didn't experience the kind of political turbulence that affected many other states following the 2020–2022 Malaysian political crisis. hundenvonPG (talk) 15:50, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

More to come for the subsequent sections. Please bear in mind to provide page numbers for book sources.--ZKang123 (talk) 05:24, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  •  Fixed Thanks for pointing out too. I've revamped book citations accordingly, with pages added. Do let me know if there is any that needs more tweaking. hundenvonPG (talk) 15:50, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Geography

Continued.

  • Penang is the second smallest state in Malaysia by size after Perlis, with a total land area of just 1,049 km2 (405 sq mi).
    • Reword to: With a total land area of only 1,049 km2 (405 sq mi), Penang is the second smallest state in Malaysia after Perlis.
  • I think it will be better to cite the various land area data from the Malaysia government website or state government.
  • "The state is roughly divided by the Penang Strait, which measures is only a mere 3 km (1.9 mi) wide at the narrowest point."
    • Given Penang Island is 295 km2 and Seberang Perai is 748 km2, I won't say "roughly divided", as it quite implies they are almost nicely divided (400 and 600).
      •  Fixed Point taken. Rewritten as per suggestion. hundenvonPG (talk) 02:20, 29 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • Might also add a fact on the strait "widest point". I think whats important is to highlight like the average width of the Strait.
      •  Fixed Data on the strait is scarce, but there is a source on its largest width. "Widest point" info added into the sentence with the citation. hundenvonPG (talk) 02:20, 29 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "On the other hand, the city of Seberang Perai covers the whole mainland half of Penang."
    • Eh, from the map below, Seberang Perai seems to cover only a bit of the mainland half... Also I need the exact page number of ref 84.
      •  Fixed Page number added for ref 84. It's more of a graphical representation though, not an actual map. hundenvonPG (talk) 02:20, 29 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      • Seberang Perai indeed covers the whole mainland portion, though I haven't had an idea to really depict it on the map (aside from maybe enlarging the font?). There isn't like a method to make curved labels on WP pushpin maps, for example. hundenvonPG (talk) 02:20, 29 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The capital city of George Town encompasses the entirety of Penang Island"
    • Similarly I would at most say along the west coast of Penang Island... Also "capital city" -> "state capital"
      •  Fixed Rephrased to "state capital". Although de facto, George Town as an administrative unit/city does cover the whole island and the surrounding islets. hundenvonPG (talk) 02:20, 29 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "within the state" – "of the state"
  • ", land reclamation projects have been undertaken at high-demand areas." such as? Also it would help to indicate such areas on a map.
  • "Penang features" – "Penang has"
  • " a tropical rainforest climate, under the" – remove comma
  • I don't think that table indicating Temperature (day), (night) etc is necessary. Also the climate chart basically repeats the same information.
    •  Fixed Concurred. Removeed both the table and the chart. hundenvonPG (talk) 02:20, 29 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The central hills of Penang Island, including Penang Hill, are an important green lung for George Town." – not sure if its from the source. The word "green lung" sounds rather promotional.

More to come.--ZKang123 (talk) 12:31, 28 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Governance and politics

  • I don't see much problems with this section. Rather well-written.
  • "based primarily on commerce and trade, rather than agriculture" – remove comma
  • "Since the 2008 state election, the DAP, part of the ruling Pakatan Harapan (PH) coalition, has been the single largest party in the state's legislature, thereby holding the position of the head of government." – this last part should have a citation. Tbh, this sentence doesn't make as much sense; a party cannot hold the position of the head of government.
    •  Fixed Noted on this. Removed prose entirely, as there isn't any restriction on whichever party (from within any coalition) appointed to lead the government. hundenvonPG (talk) 10:26, 2 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm unsure of the use of "far right" to describe PN.
    •  Fixed In fact, PN (and its major component PAS) has been described either as "far right", "right wing" or "moving to the far right" by The Diplomat, The Edge and James Chai at ISEAS. The degree of how far right that coalition is may be ambigious, but certainly their consistent right-wing ethnocentric agenda isn't. Replaced "far right" with "right wing". hundenvonPG (talk) 10:26, 2 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think the small table of the percentage of party seats is unnecessary.
  • "After Pakatan Rakyat (predecessor to the present-day Pakatan Harapan) was voted into power in 2008" – no need the bracketed portion since it was explained earlier.
  • "Moreover, George Town is twinned with five sister cities and six friendship cities, while Seberang Perai has formed partnerships with one sister city and one friendship city. " – needs citation
    •  Fixed This was actually based on the list of sister cities within the respective city articles, but point taken. Removed sentence. hundenvonPG (talk) 10:26, 2 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Demographics

  • Suggest splitting the first sentence.
    • "Penang, with a population of 1,740,405 as of 2020" – "As of 2020, the population of Penang was 1,740,405."
    • "has the highest population density of all Malaysian states (excluding the Federal Territories of Kuala Lumpur and Putrajaya), at 1,659/km2 (4,300/sq mi)." – "With a population density of 1,659/km2 (4,300/sq mi), Penang has the highest population density of all Malaysian states."
    • I might exclude the mention of the Federal Territories since from my understanding they aren't exactly states right?
      •  Fixed Concurred. Sentence split as per suggestion and Federal Territories omitted; technically the FT aren't states to begin with. hundenvonPG (talk) 10:26, 2 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Due to its more compact land area, the city's population density of 2,595.8/km2 (6,723/sq mi) was double that of Seberang Perai." – need citation
    • Also "Due to its more compact land area, George Town has twice the population density of Seberang Perai at [value]"
      •  Fixed Rephrased as per suggestion and shifted census citation to the end of the sentence. hundenvonPG (talk) 10:26, 2 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

. More to come.--ZKang123 (talk) 03:11, 2 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • "while ethnic Indians made up nearly 9% of the state's populace." – "of the state's populace" is unnecessary.
  • "remains a Chinese-majority city with over half of its population being Chinese as of 2020." – "with over half of its population being Chinese" I felt like already saying George Town is Chinese-majority quite implies that fact. Unless you give a firm percentage.
    •  Fixed Noted on this. Trimmed down sentence as such: "Chinese comprised over 51% of George Town's population". hundenvonPG (talk) 03:24, 4 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Btw for the language subsection, does the Penang state constitution state the official language(s)? Might mention it first.
  • "where the major languages commonly in use..." – "where Malay, English, Hokkien, Mandarin and Tamil are widely spoken."
  • "encouraged its use among some within the Chinese and Indian" – "encouraged its adoption by the Chinese and Indian..."
  • Oh I see that Malay as the official language shown later. I would suggest talking about the status of the Malay language as the official state language first in this language subsection, then mention the other major languages spoken.
    •  Fixed Moved prose on the status of Malay to the second para in the section, ahead of the other languages. hundenvonPG (talk) 03:24, 4 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "to have set up a dedicated department" – "to have a dedicated department."
  • " is a prime example of the peaceful coexistence of various religions in Penang." – This part is rather unecyclopedic. I think it's fine to mention Phil Street as where many various places of worship are located, however, and I will keep the street's nickname. Suggest rephrasing
    •  Fixed Point taken; sentence sounded quite odd at first. Trimmed down sentence: "... houses multiple places of worship belonging to Muslim, Taoist, Hindu and Christian communities, all located in close proximity to each other". hundenvonPG (talk) 03:24, 4 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

More to come.--ZKang123 (talk) 02:14, 4 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • "formed the Penang Harmony Corporation as a means to further enhance" – remove "as a means"

Economy

  • "tiny size" -> small size
  • Add ToUSD values for all RM currency mentions
  • "second highest among Malaysian states" – I'm guessing number one goes to Sarawak?
    • Yes, in terms of states (FTs excluded), Sarawak is the highest. Trimmed sentences to just "the second highest among Malaysian states after Sarawak". hundenvonPG (talk) 06:34, 4 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "was a time when George Town" - no need "a time"
  • "Under Lim's leadership" – also suggest deleting. I think its clear the developments were under his tenure.
  • "The state's gold and jewellery industry originates from the founding of the Penang Goldsmith Association in 1832. Jewellery from Penang is exported to over 20 foreign markets, including Singapore, Hong Kong, Japan, Canada and the United States. " – sentence needs citation.
    •  Fixed Moved attributed 'The Star' citation to the end of sentence. hundenvonPG (talk) 06:34, 4 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • " influential personalities" – "important people"
  • I think the mining and agriculture subsections can just be merged into the manufacturing subsection.
    •  Fixed Removed mining and agriculture subsections, as they're at most just two to three sentences long; GDP-wise, their share is dwarfed by services and manufacturing. hundenvonPG (talk) 06:34, 4 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

More to come.--ZKang123 (talk) 05:45, 4 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry if I haven't been getting back to this; I have other things on my plate at the moment.--ZKang123 (talk) 02:33, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No worries. Feel free to circle back whenever it's convenient. hundenvonPG (talk) 04:37, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
here
for what they are not)
  1. It is reasonably well written.
    a (prose, spelling, and grammar):
    b (
    lists
    )    :
  2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.
    a (references):
    b (citations to
    reliable sources):
    c (OR):
    d (copyvio and plagiarism
    ):
  3. It is broad in its coverage.
    a (major aspects):
    b (focused):
  4. It follows the
    neutral point of view
    policy    .
    Fair representation without bias:
  5. It is stable.
    No edit wars, etc.:
  6. It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.
    a (images are tagged and non-free images have
    suitable captions
    )    :

Overall:
Pass/Fail:

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