Talk:Sócrates

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: No consensus to move. Different editors don't agree on whether small details apply in this case or whether a disambiguator is needed to differentiate. (non-admin closure) (t · c) buidhe 02:34, 22 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Sócrates → Sócrates (footballer) – Per discussions at Sable FC and Eric Martin (footballer, born 1946), diacritics should not act as disambiguation, and the natural disambiguation for footballers should be added instead. It's hard to type Sócrates in the search bar in the English Wikipedia. Paul Vaurie (talk) 22:07, 28 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Support per nom.--Ortizesp (talk) 23:56, 28 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose per
  WP:SMALLDETAILS policy, which shows diacritics are sufficient disambiguation (giving The Wörld Is Yours vs The World Is Yours as an example). Poor decisions/closes made in RMs elsewhere (i.e. the Sable example) are not a justification for overriding site policy. Number 57 11:38, 29 August 2021 (UTC)[reply
  ]
  • In Portuguese, the philosopher is also spellt "Sócrates" with an accent on the first "o". On first look, do you honestly think the uninformed reader could tell which is which? I think the added disambiguator would add clarity in this case.--Ortizesp (talk) 05:04, 30 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related page moves. GiantSnowman 11:51, 29 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose per N57, and thanks for pointing me/us to
  WP:SMALLDETAILS. GiantSnowman 11:53, 29 August 2021 (UTC)[reply
  ]

@GiantSnowman: @Number 57: who made that edit? You might want to look at the edit history of SMALLDETAILS for signs of attempting to wag the dog. But the point is that even by the current pointy claims of SMALLDETAILS this fails since sources relate mainly to when he captained the team in the 1982 FIFA World Cup, and print sources in 1980s did not have diacritics even for French presidents, let alone Brazilian footballers. He simply is not known by the diacritic in English sources, so cannot be identified to English text readers by the diacritic. In ictu oculi (talk) 18:59, 13 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@

WP:naturaldis as this was never to correct as "Pele" Brazillian fotballer in English? Things which are properly called "Pele"~(such like Pele (deity)) do not have competitive claim against Brazilian footballer but Mount Pelée which is often called just as "Pelée" would have. Is Pele/Pelé/Pelée right analogy to Sócrates/Socretes? Would we be consistent if we not change Sócrates as disambig but change Pele to disambig as correct spelling is more important? Dawid2009 (talk) 05:53, 16 September 2021 (UTC)[reply

]

• Oppose, per N57. 99to99 (talk) 20:05, 29 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Strong support This is the English Wikipedia. English keyboards do not have accented letters, and the closest approximation to Sócrates is Socrates, a Greek philosopher, who is far better-known. Crossover1370 (talk | contribs) 21:09, 31 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Your justification is in reverse. If you type in
    Socrates (footballer) it already takes you to the current page. The only way you'd get to this page mistakenly is if for some ridiculous unknown reason you typed Sócrates in the English Wikipedia trying to get to the ancient Greek dude. Red Slash 19:40, 17 September 2021 (UTC)[reply
    ]
• Support. Improves recognizability. The diacratic is not a sufficient disambiguator for a general reader. In Portuguese, both are spelled the same. In English, both are also usually spelled the same. Walrasiad (talk) 05:36, 1 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Support per nomination, Ortizesp, Crossover1370 and Walrasiad. This article was created in January 2003 and was unilaterally moved to
  WP:SMALLDETAILS does provide for differentiation via commas, periods, ellipses, quotation marks, exclamation marks, question marks or uppercase/lowercase letters, all of those can be handled on keyboards used in the English-speaking world. However, most RM discussions have arrived at a consensus that English Wikipedia main title headers should not differ solely on the basis of accents, diacritics or other characters not available on the majority of English-speaking world keyboards. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 21:54, 3 September 2021 (UTC)[reply
  ]
• Support: I'm not sure if I can support my own nomination but here I am. Paul Vaurie (talk) 17:29, 6 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose Sócrates is primary topic (why not?), and Sócrates (disambiguation) also should be created if we have Socrates (disambiguation). Dawid2009 (talk) 17:02, 7 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Support per nom. The accent is not enough to distinguish him from the philosopher. -- Necrothesp (talk) 15:06, 8 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Strong support per nom. The accent is not found in all English print sources so obviously is not enough to distinguish him from the philosopher. In ictu oculi (talk) 18:54, 13 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • I fail to see the problem here. How could someone be confused by the current situation? No one looking for the philosopher types "Sócrates". Red Slash 19:40, 17 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose The footballer is the clear primary topic of "Sócrates" in English; the philosopher is not in contention for primary topic per
  Socrates (footballer) and have Sócrates be a primary redirect. (I am not supporting or opposing this, just stating it as a possibility.) But no one is going to type "Sócrates" into English Wikipedia expecting to find the philosopher. -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 07:31, 14 September 2021 (UTC)[reply
  ]

There are always inconsistencies. Voters here are invited to visit

Sobibór failed. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 11:12, 14 September 2021 (UTC)[reply

]

That's different - the concentration camp is actually located in Poland, so the Polish language is clearly relevant, and it would be RFOREIGN-compliant for

WP:MUSICSERIES

. Otherwise we should never redirect a title to a parenthetically disambiguated version of itself.

In this situation, Portuguese/Spanish is completely irrelevant to the Greek philospher. -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 16:03, 14 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose. I'm not a major fan of using diacritics for small details, but in this case it seems fair enough. The philosopher is never spelt with a diacritic in English, so it can only really refer to the footballer as a primary topiuc.  — Amakuru (talk) 10:04, 16 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose not per small details at all, but because this leads to a completely nonsensical conclusion: either
  Sócrates (footballer), which is absolutely absurd (see WP:R, among other policies); or Sócrates redirects to a dab page or to the philosopher, which is ridiculous because pretty much anyone who bothers to put the accent is looking for the soccer player. Red Slash 19:40, 17 September 2021 (UTC)[reply
  ]

  +1 A much more succinct version of exactly the point I wanted to make. -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 19:46, 17 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  I think the amount of people who search for the footballer and put in ó is probably minimal.--Ortizesp (talk) 17:26, 20 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  In that case, the correct title would be

  Sócrates (footballer) an acceptable title. -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 18:54, 20 September 2021 (UTC)[reply

  ]

• Oppose per
  WP:SMALLDETAILS and Red Slash. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Havelock Jones (talk • contribs
  ) 09:09, September 20, 2021 (UTC)