Talk:Star Wars: Episode III – Revenge of the Sith

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February 16, 2020Good article reassessmentDelisted
Current status: Former featured article

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Screenshot of Anakin in "Cast" section

I don't see how using a screenshot of just Anakin helps increase readers' understanding of the film. I think it's more suitable at Darth Vader. George Ho (talk) 11:09, 1 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

It isn't essential but he is the main character and I don't think removing it would make the article better either. -- 109.79.180.72 (talk) 19:55, 26 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

GA Reassessment

This discussion is
transcluded from Talk:Star Wars: Episode III – Revenge of the Sith/GA2
. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the reassessment.

This article is woefully under sourced, and would likely be a quick fail if nominated for

WP:GAN. Some of it is easily fixable because some references are just not being reused (see this edit). However, it needs a lot more work due to years of neglect. New information has come to light at the very least. –MJL ‐Talk‐☖ 19:24, 31 December 2019 (UTC)[reply
]

For the avoidance of doubt, the only issue I see for this article in concerns with the good article criteria are points 2 and 3. Regards, –MJL ‐Talk‐☖ 19:26, 31 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think it's short in sourcing, not sure this assessment is needed. Govvy (talk) 20:10, 31 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Govvy: It's not short on sources, but it doesn't support all its facts with citations. I tried being conservative with my previous tagging, but to explain the scope of the problem, I added more tags. There are now 24 instances of citation needed tags, 3 better source needed tags, and one inline original research tag. This needs to be addressed if the article is to retain its good article status, please. –MJL ‐Talk‐☖ 21:46, 31 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@MJL: You asking for citations in a lot of places and really some of the spots you pointed out don't need a citation. You don't need a citation to point out where an obvious is, like where someone has their cameo in the film. This is over-analysation. Also for the sentence "This album was chosen as one of Amazon.com's Top 100 Editors' Picks of 2005 (#83)". (You added needs a better source!) It's a primary statement with a primary source, you can't get much better than that! I think you are showing stupidity there. I suggest you review what you have done, I feel as if you're going to waste a lot of peoples time here. Govvy (talk) 11:55, 1 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@
WP:UNDUE. There is nothing stupid about that. To your first point, per our BLP policy, all potentially contentious information about living person's should be cited with a referenced footnote. The fact the article is claiming Lucas had his own family cameo in the movie is potentially contentious and should contain an inline citation.
You're welcome to disagree with my interpretation of policy, but I am backed by policy nonetheless. –MJL ‐Talk‐☖ 17:49, 1 January 2020 (UTC)[reply
]
I have removed the Amazon source. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 09:24, 4 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Lord Sjones23: Awesome! If you or someone else correct the citation issues, then this would be all set. –MJL ‐Talk‐☖ 17:31, 4 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Well, no one came to save this one after like a month and a half of waiting. Therefore, I felt obligated to delist it at this point. Hopefully, this can get fixed up and renominated though. –MJL ‐Talk‐☖ 01:52, 16 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Plot summary

While I agree with most of the recent changes to the plot, there are some concerns I want to discuss here. For example, the important part in Mace Windu's death is that he gets thrown out of the window, the means (the Force lightning), not so much, so we might need to cut it down. Also, I think the wording regarding the end of the duel should be written as: "Wan engages Vader in a lightsaber duel that ends with Obi-Wan severing Vader's limbs and leaving him to be burned alive on the banks of a lava river."

Also, Samuel L. Jackson and George Lucas confirmed that Windu might be still alive, so I think the “casting him out the window to his death” should be revised. Thoughts? Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 04:35, 9 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, it's unclear that Windu died in the scene. But saying that he got thrown out the window does not communicate what happens in the scene. That only makes sense if it's been established that Palpatine's office is on a skyscraper. This leads me to think that the important element is not the window, but the fact that Windu is 'neutralized'. UpdateNerd (talk) 18:05, 9 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Plot summary should refer to Palpatine as 'Sheev', on the grounds of consistency.

Virtually every character is dealt with on a first-name basis (e.g. Anakin, Padmé, Obi-Wan, etc.). In order to be consistent, therefore, I propose that the majority of the instances of the name 'Palpatine' should be replaced with 'Sheev.'

180.150.39.79 (talk) 11:15, 21 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The character's only ever referred to as Palpatine or Darth Sidious in the film, and the first name Sheev wasn't given until years after the film was released – it's an unnecessary detail that isn't relevant to the film. 4TheWynne (talk • contribs) 11:23, 21 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Sheev's name

I appreciate that my above suggestion to change all or most references to 'Palpatne' to 'Sheev' has, rightly or wrongly, very little prospect of getting up. However, is it too much to ask to just include his canonical first name in the Cast section? Other Wikipedia articles, such as the one on the character himself, use the name. Should Wikipedia not strive to be internally consistent?

I made a modest edit – adding just a single word – to include this canonical information, and it was promptly undone, not with any explanation, but merely an obnoxious "Uh, no."

I can't help but think that this is based on little more than a dislike of the name Sheev. And it's okay not to like the name. But his name it is, and no amount of "Uh, no." can change that.

Some, I am sure, will be tempted to argue relevance, given that he was never addressed by this name in the film, and that the name itself was only revealed a number of years later. But this line of reasoning is problematic on at least two fronts: firstly, adding newly released information that is of interest to the subject at hand, even when it emerges some time after the fact, is not uncommon (do you really think articles about the first season of The Mandalorian will refer to "Baby Yoda" once we learn his/her actual name?); secondly, characters such as Tion, who is not addressed by any name during the film, are mentioned by name in the article. If some local governor that Obi-Wan chats to for a couple of minutes gets to have a name, then surely the guy in the film who becomes the Emperor of the entire galaxy ought to have one, too?


180.150.39.79 (talk) 12:55, 21 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

FWIW, Tion is apparently named in the end credits, even if never directly named in a scene. And, as far as internal consistency, notice the article for the character is at Palpatine, rather than "Sheev Palpatine". There isn't quite a point to include the name other than "well, it's his first name as revealed in another piece of media that isn't this one". It isn't included for the same reason Star Wars (film) doesn't include that Darth Vader's name is really Anakin Skywalker, that Princess Leia's surname is Organa, and that her father is named Bail—the reason stated above: it isn't included until a later piece of media and so is not relevant to this film. ~Cheers, TenTonParasol 04:32, 22 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Additions to Other media section

@

WP:FANCRUFT, overdetailed, off-topic of this film specifically, and catering to fannishness. ~Cheers, TenTonParasol 22:53, 4 January 2021 (UTC)[reply
]

Christensen performance criticized

WP:RSP
talking about it:

  • The Guardian - "Unfortunately, there is also a reason why Christensen’s career has nosedived since 2005. He was the weak link that sank the whole trilogy."
  • Vulture - "There are certain criticisms of Star Wars:Episodes I, II, and III that have been repeated so often, they’re basically accepted as part of Star Wars mythology. Things like: The prequels were CGI’d to death. Midi-Chlorians are an abomination. Jar Jar Binks is the absolute worst. Also: Hayden Christensen is a bad actor, based on his performances in Attack of the Clones and Revenge of the Sith."
  • Vanity Fair - "And though many performances (from great actors!) in those Star Wars prequels were on the wooden side of the spectrum, the bulk of the blame landed on young Christensen."

With all of these reliable sources talking about it, I'm surprised that you reverted me. I even gave this the tiniest weight possible... a sentence buried in the reception section. I think that is quite a reasonable place for it. Thoughts? –Novem Linguae (talk) 03:48, 26 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Novem Linguae, as I said in my edit summary, you don't say something like "Some critics have also criticized..." and only support it with one source – would be better to have at least three. Of the sources you've listed here, the first one is fine, but the other two refer to the criticisms of the fandom rather than film critics. Reviews of the film (or reflective pieces like the Guardian article) criticising Christensen's performance would be better sources, and if they're "not that hard to find", I'm sure you'll have no trouble. 4TheWynne (talk • contribs) 00:27, 28 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Shrug. Anyway, I found a second film critic source. At this point I'd say that both critics and fans didn't like his performance. I'll make the appropriate edits.
  • Rolling Stone - "the film follows Anakin Skywalker (Hayden Christensen — to merely call him wooden is an affront to puppets everywhere)"
–Novem Linguae (talk) 00:52, 28 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Reorganize Critical response section

I suggest splitting the Critical response section, subdividing into more sections. The section contains more than purely responses from professional film critics, and I think reorganisation could be beneficial. For example the section also contains Academic response from Camille Paglia, as an art critic. It also contains a note claiming that the film has a "cult following" that might be considered "Audience response" or "Fan response" or otherwise presented as Legacy or Cultural influence (and I do think claims of cult following need to be better sourced). It also briefly contains a response from the filmmaker, "Directors response" but that could perhaps be presented different as it is was a response to conservative reactions, rather than the reaction of George Lucas to how he felt the film turned out or his reaction to the public response to the film (I'd be very surprised if his opinions on the matter are not on record).

There are various ways it could be done but I think some reorganisation, or even trimming, would help make room for the section to be improved. I think there is potential for the section to be updated and refreshed, to perhaps make room for more reactions and analysis from contemporary film critics, or legacy reactions from critics 10 or 15 years after the release, or possibly even reactions from some of the principal cast, or others involved in making the film besides George Lucas. But again I think splitting and subdivinding in some way would be a good first step towards making room to add more actual "Critical response". -- 109.78.205.220 (talk) 23:18, 14 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Anyone?
While waiting for second opinions I started by making the most minimal change. I moved the comments from academic and artic critic Camille Paglia down, so that all the paragraphs from regular old film critics are grouped together.[1]
I'd still welcome opinions, I'm not set on any one way to do it, but the result I'd like to see is a Critical response section with more analysis of different aspects of the film making process. -- 109.76.141.49 (talk) 01:28, 19 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Agree, the critical response section seems a little sparse for this kind of a film. I've separated out a "Other responses" section for a start. Throast (talk | contribs) 08:05, 29 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

"The film is now considered a cult classic."

Is it, though? This film, like all the other Star Wars films, made something like $100 bajillion at the box office, and is part of a mega-franchise of films and other assorted media. I have a hard time considering anything this massive a "cult" film. --Bongwarrior (talk) 17:44, 25 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I see that some sites, like Comic Book Resources and "insidethemagic.net", use that phrase. I question that too as it doesn't seem to fit the definition. It was a Hollywood blockbuster that was maligned at the time, but has seen its reputation improve over time. – Muboshgu (talk) 18:23, 25 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Bongwarrior, Muboshgu, I agree, CBR uses the term "cult classic" very liberally. I also don't see how the film being quoted on TikTok amounts to there being a "cult following". I think the paragraph in the Star Wars: Episode III – Revenge of the Sith#Other responses section should be removed as well. Throast (talk | contribs) 08:01, 29 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

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