Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive221

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Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Thucydides411

User who is submitting this request for enforcement

MrX (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 19:44, 12 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

User against whom enforcement is requested

Thucydides411 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced

WP:ARBAPDS

 :

• Wikipedia editors are expected to behave reasonably, calmly, and courteously in their interactions with other editors; to approach even difficult situations in a dignified fashion and with a constructive and collaborative outlook; and to avoid acting in a manner that brings the project into disrepute. Unseemly conduct, such as personal attacks, incivility, assumptions of bad faith, harassment, disruptive point-making, and gaming the system, is prohibited.
• All Wikipedia articles must be written from a neutral point of view. Merely presenting a plurality of viewpoints, especially from polarized sources, does not fulfill the neutral point of view.
• When there is a good-faith dispute, editors are expected to participate in the consensus-building process and to carefully consider other editors' views, rather than simply edit-warring back-and-forth between competing versions.

Diffs

of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

1. November 12, 2017 Restoring blatant personal attack after it was removed by another editor. (Edit warring)
2. November 12, 2017 Restoring blatant personal attack after it was removed by another editor. (Edit warring)

1. November 12, 2017 Restoring blatant personal attack after it was removed by another editor. (Edit warring)

1. November 12, 2017 Blatant personal attack and personalizing disputes.
2. November 12, 2017 Assumption of bad faith: "This just looks like an attempt to hide the mainstream view of the JAR from readers. Given the discussion above about "purging" the article, the intent of this RfC is quite clear."
3. November 12, 2017 Assumption of bad faith
4. November 12, 2017 Assumption of bad faith
5. October 11, 2017 Personalizing content disputes
6. July 4, 2017 Refusal to accept consensus

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

1. February 18, 2017 Blocked for violation of discretionary sanctions restrictions
2. May 7, 2017 Given a discretionary sanction by Lord Roem (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA).

If

WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts

)

• Previously given a discretionary sanction for conduct in the area of conflict on February 18, 2017 by Coffee (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA).
• Alerted about discretionary sanctions in the area of conflict in the last twelve months, see the system log linked to above.
• Gave an alert about discretionary sanctions in the area of conflict in the last twelve months, on January 23, 2017
• Participated in an arbitration request or enforcement procedure about the area of conflict in the last twelve months, on February 25, 2017.
• Previously given a discretionary sanction for conduct in the area of conflict on May 7, 2017 by Lord Roem (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA).

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

Thucydides411 has persistently made assumptions of bad faith, personal attacks, edit warring, refusal to abide by consensus] and general tendentious editing at Russian interference in the 2016 United States elections for nearly a year as part of his campaign to inject his fringe POV[1], that election interference by Russia didn't happen, into the article. He has been warned several times at several venues to stop but he continues to exhibit a pattern of behavior that is disruptive and a drain on everyone's patience. These last personal attacks on Volunteer Marek are way over the line.

@James J. Lambden: That's news to me. Please list the diffs corresponding to my examples above that show Thucydides411 being attacked. And no, let's not close this. We all know that ANI is useless for resolving these types of issues which is why there were two Arbcom cases for American politics, and why there are discretionary sanction which I am asking to be enforced.- MrX 00:39, 13 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

[2]

Discussion concerning Thucydides411

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Thucydides411

I'm not going to comment here further than to say this: I think this report is part of a campaign of intimidation and harassment. I really don't have the time to respond - getting down in the mud over the insane situation on American Politics articles isn't worth it. -Thucydides411 (talk) 19:57, 12 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by slatersateven)

There is an ongoing ANI [3] launched by me. We should close this (or that) and only have one running.Slatersteven (talk) 19:59, 12 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Can we please close this, statements are being made here I feel I should respond to, but have no wish to be accused of forum shopping.Slatersteven (talk) 10:48, 13 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

As this is obviously not going to be closed I have asked for the ANI to be closed. I note that he has never informed anyone of DS, but was informed in the last 12 months.Slatersteven (talk) 14:45, 14 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

At ANI I asked for a topic ban after the user rejected the simple request by another edd to just step away for 48 hours. I fell that if the user is not given some kind of sanction they will in fact continue to be disruptive and provocative. As to the comments about him being provoked. In the last interaction the first "about a user statement" made by anyone was this [4], whilst not aimed at A user it is an attack on anyone who disagrees with him as being politically motivated. Maybe I am missing where he was provoked into making that statement, As far as I can see he was the one deliberately trying to provoke people.Slatersteven (talk) 14:54, 14 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Also not only was he not hated alone, but he attempted to move his comment out of the hat (whilst keeping others hated) [5].Slatersteven (talk) 15:36, 14 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

There was nothing stopping Thucydides411 from removing PA's, that would have been well within policy, edit warring to include his is against policy in a number of ways. It was this fact that led to my ANI, not the PA's themselves.Slatersteven (talk) 18:20, 17 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by James J. Lambden

Thucydides411 has been the target of a harassment campaign. It follows the pattern of:

1. Attack him
2. Wait for in-kind response
3. Option A: use his response as evidence of hostility
4. Option B: remove or hat his response alone, to annoy

Regardless, Slatersteven is right. One complaint is enough. Close this. James J. Lambden (talk) 00:18, 13 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@

If this is enough for ARBCOM to get involved, there are at least three complaints I want to make - anyone else? Seraphim System ^(talk) 10:57, 13 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Anythingyouwant

I advise any further comments to be put at ANI, pursuant to this comment by an administrator. Anythingyouwant (talk) 18:07, 14 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by SPECIFICO

I'm copying some of the evidence I presented at the ANI thread:

Admins have sanctioned Thucydides411 twice already for violating DS on ARBAP2. first sanction and then the second sanction Whenever this is mentioned, he responds with a personal theory as to why one or both of these did not really happen, citing among other things his unsuccessful appeal. He's done that several times, and it demonstrates that the sanctions have not caused him to reconsider his behavior. Recent example: [6].

He routinely mischaracterizes good faith content disagreements as POV-pushing by the majority of editors on the Politics articles who are collaborating to reflect mainstream description of facts and events. He accuses editors of following their personal opinions and engages with disparagement and denigration rather than discussion of content, sources, and policy. This behavior is not only at the Russian Interference article; it's on other related articles as well. For those who are not familiar with his conduct, here are some threads that demonstrate his personalized battleground style:

[7]

ANI

[8]

And meanwhile he’s been going after Marek on a long list of pages for a long time and has been politely asked over and over to stop.:[9]

What's particularly weird, to me, is why Thuc would think that these years-old irrelevant ad hominems against Marek would hold any sway over the current editors Thuc is presumably trying to win to his POV? It seems to me he is so invested in personalizing routine editing communications that he doesn't even realize that the overwhelming majority of editors thinks these ad hominems are pointless and offensive. SPECIFICO talk 18:28, 14 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The most recent incident v. Marek may have precipitated this complaint, but it is only the most recent incident for Thucydides411. His participation on article and user talk pages and Noticeboards has consistently devolved into accusations of personal POV bias and then the further accusation that Admins and the entire WP project overlook policy violations and POV editing that fits a certain political stance. I linked three threads above that give a glimpse of this behavior. I know, TLDR, but you can read any 6-12 inches of it and it all comes in focus. This is a

Darouet forgot to post Thucydides' next move after that thread he excerpted. The follow-up was that, because I later referred to Russian psy-ops in trying to ingratiate themselves to members of the Trump team, Thucydides started a complaint about me at BLPN, claiming that my mention of the term psy-ops was a BLP violation.[10].

Here he is disparaging the motives of editors who disagree with his POV. [11] Here he goes after patience-of-a-saint MelanieN [12] SPECIFICO talk 01:21, 20 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

It's not right for Darouet to cast aspersions on me and Marek and call each of us hypocrites, citing as his justification the fact that MrX filed this complaint. SPECIFICO talk 01:26, 20 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Volunteer Marek

I was not going to comment here but since User:GoldenRing can't drop this and continues to try and get me for some reason I feel compelled to respond. GR references this comment of mine and says that I am "casting aspersions and personalising this dispute". Nonsense. First, this is AN/I NOT an article talk page. On AN/I we discuss EDITOR'S BEHAVIOR and not content. There's no "personalizing the dispute" here. I mean, if I'm "personalizing the dispute" so is everybody else who's ever commented on ANI including GoldenRing himself. As for "casting aspersions" - again, this is AN/I. We discuss editor's behavior. And yes, if you look at edits by Thucydides411 since mid-December 2016, it's something like 90% on this one article on Russian interference in the US election. Hold up, I can actually give you a more precise number... ... (excel loading) ...

Between Dec 20 and Feb 16, Thucydides made 383 edits. Of those, all but ... FOURTEEN, were related to the article Russian Interference in US election. So that's actually 96.3% of edits related to this one article (that does include edits which are to related articles like Julian Assange but even those are a small % of his over all edits). I mean, if you click on his edit history it freakin' looks like this ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------->

For the next 500 edits, between Feb 16 and June 88, he did a little better in terms of diversifying his interest with "only" 88% of his edits on Russian interference or related. I can calculate the % for the rest of the edits since then but I'm pretty sure you get the picture.

To claim that "it doesn't take much of a look through Thucydides411's edit history to make the SPA characterisation look pretty thin" is absurd. It means that the person "looking" is, well, NOT looking or that they are pretending something is true when it's not.

I'd really appreciate it if GoldenRing started bothering to actually look at the diffs and the evidence before opinin' or administratin' in the future. So far their words and action suggest a very cavalier attitude towards both. Volunteer Marek  17:46, 17 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

My statement quoted below quoted by Darouet (16:33) is most certainly NOT a personal attack. "Clearly" or otherwise. It's simply a statement describing why Thucydides411 actions on the article have been disruptive and why he has never managed to get a consensus for any of their edits. This is a user who rejects the idea of the article itself full stop. And correspondingly they reject what virtually all reliable sources have to say on the subject. Unsurprisingly then, whenever reliable sources are presented, he simply rejects them. That is not my problem. That is Thucydides411 problem.

Note also that Darouet disingenuously omitted the first part of my statement which discusses the content under discourse directly. This is a straight up attempt at misrepresentation and constitutes

I also don't appreciate Darouet making this false accusation. Accusing others of making personal attacks when they're clearly not, is itself a personal attack.

All that Darouet's statement shows is that there have been multiple editors (several more could easily be added) who have gotten extremely frustrated with Thucydides

At the end of August, MrX stated that they had begun a case against Thucydides411. That was on the same day MrX launched an RfC, asking if communications between Felix Sater, a Putin aid, and a Trump lawyer should be in in the article [13]. Thucydides411 voted to oppose inclusion and ultimately, Sandstein closed the RfC noting that there was no consensus to include the communication.

I think the discussion that occurred at that RfC is fairly representative of the vitriol Thucydides411 has faced by a few editors on the page (notably by the complainants here). James J. Lambden writes that Thucydides411 is repeatedly the target of harassment by 1) a personal attack, 2) Thucydides’ response, which is then 3) removed or 4) used against them in an enforcement proceeding. Every one of those events occurs in the RfC. The RfC discussion also demonstrates that what GoldenRing and Masem write is spot on about how this issue is not one-sided.

On the same day MrX launched the RfC, Thucydides411 described the Sater communication in the “Threaded discussion” section of the RfC,

• 16:19, Thucydides411 [14]: “It also doesn't seem to involve any actions taken by the Russian government. Russian actions are, after all, the topic this article purports to cover.”

This is the response by Volunteer Marek, MrX, and SPECIFICO:

• 16:33, Volunteer Marek [15]: “…The problem here for you is that you reject the idea of Russian interference a priori. So to YOU whenever a source tries to explain the WHY and HOW Russian interference happened, of course you're going to think it's not irrelevant because you don't such a thing happened in the first place. But that is YOUR own POV, that is YOU trying to impose your personal opinions on the article, that is YOU refusing to follow the policy of reliable sources. That is YOU breaking Wikipedia policy and now, edit warring in contravention of it. Not clear why we should put up with this.”

VM’s comment is clearly a

personal attack

. It’s not horrible in the context of American Politics, but it personalizes the dispute and is clearly disruptive.

• 17:01, Thucydides411 [16]: "Capitalizing random words doesn't make your point any clearer. This material isn't relevant, but you're trying to coatrack it into the article. And really, you're the last person who should be throwing around accusations of
  POV-pushing or policy violation
  ."

• (SPECIFICO removes Thucydides411’s comment as a personal attack but not Volunteer Marek’s [17]; Thucydides411 restores their comment [18])

Demonstrating exactly what Lambden describes: removing Thucydides' response defending themself, but not the attack on them.

• 21:13, Volunteer Marek [19]: "They're not "random". The capitalization stress the "YOU", as in Thucydides411, for a reason - to emphasize that YOU are trying to cram your own personal opinions down everyone's throat here, rather than relying on reliable sources per WP:RS. It's gone on long enough."

• 17:25, MrX [20]: "Volunteer Marek is exactly right. Thucydides411 is engaged in long-term tendentious editing on this article. His conduct should be reviewed at WP:AE. I began documenting a case three months ago, but unfortunately, I've been too busy to complete and file it."

Note that MrX created this sandbox page dedicated to Thucydides411 in May 2017 (the initial documentation included zero diffs), promising some kind of future enforcement action without evidence. MrX left that creepy page,

WP:TE

, when in the course of the RfC, a majority of editors on the page would agree with Thucydides, and not MrX.

• 23:08, SPECIFICO [21]: "Thuc, please keep your "personal opinions" off this page. WP editing is not about anybody's opinions. It's about conveying the weight of RS discourse on the subject. And by "subject" we mean the subject of this article, which -- as you know -- is not "alleged Russian interference..." RS tell us in some detail that psy-ops to create chatter among folks in Trump's circle is Russian interference. I'm not going to repeat the details here, because the current discussion is more limited in scope. All these Russian-Trumpan connections are understood by RS accounts to be elements of the extensive and wildly successful psy-ops campaign."

This isn’t easy to parse, but it’s a totally unconstructive response to Thucydides411’s comment.

The full exchange (including comments made on other days) can be viewed here.

In brief, all of these editors — those making a case here against Thucydides411 — have been quick to turn content conversations into personal attacks in the past, have failed to assume good faith, and this conduct has helped produce a toxic environment on the page. In that context this complaint comes across as hypocritical, and an effort to force Thucydides411 to stop interacting at the page when plenty of editors there (and the editorial board of the BBC) agree that allegations of Russian interference, whatever their merit or whatever the extent of interference, be described as such. -Darouet (talk) 00:02, 20 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Objective3000

I fear I won’t be a useful contributor to this complaint – but wanted to add my one penny. Thucydides411 has spent just shy of a year attempting to weaken the article Russian interference in the 2016 United States elections by suggesting that there is little evidence of such and that those that will not accept their view are biased. The editor has consistently claimed that RS use the word ‘’alleged’’. Only, one by one, RS have dropped use of that word. I think we’re down to one out of the six sources that the editor has continued to claim use the word. And yet, they still claim it is in general use. The editor has also spent this time attempting to add a criticism from a writer against one of the pieces of evidence. All of these attempts have failed to gain consensus. But, we are drawn into the exact same debate time and time again. The original report is now just a tiny fraction of the evidence, and yet the editor continues to argue this one point. I’d give diffs; but this is difficult considering the 622 edits the editor has made to this articles talk. This represents a time-sink that doesn’t appear to have aided the article in nearly a year. O3000 (talk) 01:48, 20 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Result concerning Thucydides411

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

• This thread was temporarily closed between 18:12, 14 November 2017‎ UTC and 14:31, 17 November 2017 UTC. In the meantime, the related AN/I thread was closed without action. I have not read it because most everything at AN/I is a mess. The conduct reported here is in and of itself not terribly bad, but the user has two previous related sanctions. Their personal attacks and edit-warring about them constitute sanctionable misconduct. I recommend a three-month topic ban from Russia-US relations including election-related matters.  Sandstein  16:08, 17 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
• I agree sanctions are appropriate here, though I'm less convinced it's one-sided. VM's comment Thucydides411 was responding to in the edit warring linked above is perhaps a borderline case, but comments like the last paragraph of this are pretty clear that VM is casting aspersions and personalising this dispute (it doesn't take much of a look through Thucydides411's edit history to make the SPA characterisation look pretty thin).
  VM is already subject to a one-month topic ban from everything Trump-related and I think that is sufficient as topic bans go for now; I'd also be in favour of an IBAN between Volunteer Marek and Thucydides411 for a bit longer than the topic bans, to make them ease back into the topic without immediately rubbing against each other. GoldenRing (talk) 17:14, 17 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
• As I mentioned at the AN/I thread, while Thucydides411 should not be edit warring on talk pages in this manner, there are concerns that the removed comments made by Thucydides (which are clearly PAs) had been made in response to other clear PAs by VM and others, which those admins monitoring the page did not remove along with Thucydides. This creates understandable frustration which leads to the EWing behavior if one is singularly being picked out. The actions of several editors all around created a bad situation that it is hard to singularly take Thucydides' actions alone as the problem, hence trouts all around and warnings to all that PAs need to be avoided, period.

I will also note particularly in comment to VM's point that Thucydides' has overwhelming spent a lot of time at the talk page for the article, that's exactly what a talk page is for. I know exactly the situation that Thucydides is in from my own experience with GG where I was being criticized for using the talk page as a talk page, primarily because I was not arguing along the lines of the majority of users on the page and required some significant review of the circumstances to present the topic. That's the whole purpose of talk pages to try to resolve issues and not just simply a !vote or who can shout the loudest. Now, there is the

WP:TE issue, I agree Thucydides' is clearly engaging in that type of behavior and per my own experience strongly recommend taking a voluntary break from that topic, if a topic ban/block is not otherwise engaged. --MASEM (t) 18:07, 17 November 2017 (UTC)[reply

]

• Considering the admin comments above, there seems to be little interest in sanctioning Thucydides411 alone, even though their editing is considered problematic. I don't think that we have the basis, in the form of a well-presented case, for sanctions against others at this time. Accordingly, unless admins object, I'll close this as no action soon.  Sandstein  10:00, 20 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Sandstein: I do object. I think your proposed topic ban of Thucydides411 is good and necessary for this topic at this time. I don't think it would be helpful for this to just be closed with no action. Others who are part of the same general dispute have recently been T-banned for one month so maybe you might argue proportionality urges a similar duration, but I don't think no action is the right outcome here.
    Speaking of others who are part of the same general dispute, unless I'm very much mistaken, Volunteer Marek is subject to a one-month topic ban from all edits and articles related to Donald Trump and as far as I can see his edits here are a blatant violation of it. He hasn't even made an attempt to claim that they are covered by BANEX, and anyway they are not. As I proposed an IBAN we might eek out a small exemption for discussing that, but any more general discussion of Tnucydides411's actions should result in a short block (48 hours?) to enforce the ban. GoldenRing (talk) 10:54, 20 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'll add as well that I'm not very impressed with VM cherry-picking another editor's history in an attempt to substantiate a personal attack. Curiously enough, I had looked at Thucydides411's edit history before making that remark; what I didn't do was go back to January to find the worst-looking bit of it. What I looked at was this. Yes, he edits AP2 articles quite a bit; so do lots of editors. That doesn't make them SPAs. GoldenRing (talk) 10:59, 20 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    • @GoldenRing: Then as far as I'm concerned you're free to close this with any sanctions concerning Thucydides411 you deem appropriate. As to Volunteer Marek, they are banned "from all edits and articles related to Donald Trump". As far as I can tell, their edits here are not related to Trump, but to Thucydides411.  Sandstein  11:16, 20 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
      • I also object to closing with no action, and support the three-month topic ban from Russia-US relations including election-related matters which Sandstein originally proposed. I don't see Volunteer Marek's comments here as warranting a sanction; it's far-fetched to suggest they violate his topic ban from Donald Trump. Bishonen | talk 11:54, 20 November 2017 (UTC).[reply]

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Groupuscule

User who is submitting this request for enforcement

talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 23:30, 18 November 2017 (UTC)[reply

]

User against whom enforcement is requested

Groupuscule (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced

Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Genetically_modified_organisms#Casting_aspersions

Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Genetically_modified_organisms#Discretionary_Sanctions

Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Genetically_modified_organisms#1RR_imposed

Diffs

of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

1. Oct. 2 The evidence strongly suggests that Monsanto has not abandoned its practice of using sockpuppet identities (and paid shills) online to promote their point of view. Unfortunately, then, this is not only an important topic for an article, but an existential threat to Wikipedia itself . . .
2. Oct. 10 More aspersions of Monsanto shills: Do they suppose that Monsanto's notorious public relations operatives are inactive on Wikipedia?
3. Oct. 13 Industry influence on GMO articles: I suppose you know that Monsanto historically uses a sophisticated system of internet sockpuppets to control public discourse on topics of interest? and two replies regarding glyphosate and apparent industry influence on genetic engineering articles
4. Nov. 18 Edit warring (initial addition by Groupuscule, I reverted with explanation, Groupuscule reverts it back in with no attempt at discussion. This note during Arbcom stated the combo of DS and 1RR were supposed to prevent exactly this type of gaming.
5. Nov. 18 Battleground mentality directed at editors: Your actions here lead me to suspect that you simply don't want this noteworthy and verifiable information included on Wikipedia. . .

If

WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts

)

• Alerted about discretionary sanctions in the area of conflict in the last twelve months, see the system log linked to above.[22]

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

This editor, who has somewhat recently re-entered the topic, has had long-term problems with

Special note should be taken of the

In the diffs and edit summaries above, there is a lot of mention by Groupuscule of Monsanto controlling articles, etc. As a reminder, David Tornheim was topic-banned for doing exactly the above while purposely avoiding mentioning editor names to try to game the aspersions principle. This diff also shows they consider the scientific consensus on GMO safety "mythical" (establishing part of the editor POV problem). Given that we're getting this acute of issues now that Groupuscule is editing in the topic again, I would suggest a standard topic-ban (worded the same as the DS notice topics) to prevent further disruption. We've seen this behavior unfold many times already in the topic, and the DS and aspersions principle were meant to tamp down hard on the disruption and POV editing caused by this.

Sandstein, Bishonen, GoldenRing, and other admins, two things I'd ask to consider about a potential 3-month topic-ban:

One is that Groupuscule has more of a sporadic but acute editing history in the topic. 3 months wouldn't really be outside the range of breaks they normally take from the topic.

The other is whether we can realistically expect the behavior to improve in the topic after 3 months? Your conversation so far has to some degree paralleled the admin discussion at the David Tornheim case[27] where lesser sanctions were at first considered for similar behavior until admins realized the problem was too likely to just resurface later given the editor mentality.

Maybe to address those issues if a 3-month time period is ultimately the consensus is to require an active appeal at 3-months showing the editor is actually recognizant of the behavior issues rather than passively letting it expire? That would seem to balance behavior concerns with this being a first sanction.

talk) 16:33, 20 November 2017 (UTC)[reply

]

[28]

Discussion concerning Groupuscule

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Groupuscule

Readers can judge for themselves who indeed has cast aspersions. All the best, groupuscule (talk) 00:54, 19 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, please allow me to clarify a few things and give my perspective on some of these new allegations.

• 1. The decision on "casting aspersions" says "an editor must not accuse another of misbehavior without evidence". I have done nothing of the sort. I have commented in general—not even in the course of content discussions, but on user talk pages where the discussion came up— that I think the biotech industry's PR apparatus probably extends to Wikipedia. This is not the same as avoiding or poisoning discussion by calling one's interlocutor a shill.
• 2. Jps accuses me of misrepresenting the sources about Monsanto's online sockpuppets. Three articles and a book. I take such an accusation very seriously, and I would encourage people to read the articles and the passage in the book. Monbiot wrote that "the Bivings Group, a PR company contracted to Monsanto, had invented fake citizens to post messages on internet listservers". He also traced one of the accounts to the Monsanto domain itself. "Here's a link to the book on Google Books; see what you think. If I didn't represent this source falsely, I think that casts the situation in a different light, especially considering Kingofaces and jps's insistence on deleting this information. Notice that they deleted it wholesale rather than trying to clarify something they thought was inaccurate.
  • Notice that Kingofaces followed, one might say stalked, me to the page on sockpuppets specifically to revert me. And now jps has done the same.
  • Notice also that during this process both the above users have cast some rather more pointed aspersions at me, for example accusing me of making a "shill gambit" (which I did not do, as part of any argument over content) and linking to an outside page with a crazy-looking Alex Jones riding on a magic carpet. I find this insulting and inappropriate.
• 3. I didn't create the article on Monsanto's public relations activities in response to the discussion at "GMO conspiracy theories". I have been planning to do it for a while, as I wrote in the October 2 quoted by Kingofaces above! So in this case the accusation is not only baseless but demonstrably false.
• 4. The userpage on scientific consensus was created four years ago as part of a discussion over the well-known "scientific consensus" statement on genetic engineering articles. It was deleted from a talk page so I moved it to userspace and expanded it. It represents research and argumentation concerning how Wikipedia should deal with this topic. It's not a manifesto. It's not my personal opinion on the subject. It was nominated for deletion back then and survived.

So, I really think I am not guilty of breaking any policy, and furthermore, that anyone examining my edits as a whole will find that I have been polite, diplomatic, and generally undisruptive throughout. Thanks for taking the time to examine this issue closely. groupuscule (talk) 20:01, 20 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Capeo

Just to clarify why I felt the AFD nomination was pointy at best: a quick perusal of Groupsicle's editing in the GMO area, including the large section currently on their talk page, make's their POV on the subject is clear. Having a POV is not an issue of course. Editing solely from that POV is though. Nominating a long-standing article for deletion, without even an attempt to first suggest improvements on the talk page, is pointy. When it's clear it's going to be a SNOW keep then proceeding to instead make a POV-fork article is even pointier. A topic ban from GMO's is probably warranted here. Capeo (talk) 17:19, 19 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The edits to

The edit that JPS points out has moved into the realm of pure fabrication. There is nothing in those sources, which are not great to begin with, that support the accusatory edit made. Capeo (talk) 04:08, 20 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by jps

If you want to learn about the user's

I just removed this addition by Groupuscule to the Monsanto page which was sourced to articles that never made the full accusations as was put in plain text. I'm not a big fan of people trying to mislead readers like this. Is this an attempt to flame out before the banhammer comes down? jps (talk) 03:51, 20 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Tryptofish

I'm inclined to cut editors a lot of slack as to what they say in user talk, so the question for me is whether personal opinions have spilled over into content in a disruptive way. And what that comes down to is (1) making an AfD nomination that was snow-rejected by the community, (2) creating a sort of tit-for-tat article as an obvious rebuttal to the not-deleted page, and (3) making the edits at

@Capeo: thank you very much for the kind words, much appreciated. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:24, 20 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Admins: I think that Sandstein correctly describes the situation as weighing conduct so far, that really hasn't been that bad, against a high probability that future conduct would likely just end up back here at AE. I feel too involved to be able to tell you how to balance that. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:28, 20 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by dialectric

Kingofaces’ filing seeks to associate Groupuscule with other editors who have been topic banned from the GMO area since the 2015 arbcom case. This attempt at association ignores significant differences between this case and past cases in the area.

1. 4 of 5 diffs in the filing are from Groupuscule’s talk page. User talk pages are generally given more freedom than WP pages, and this editor’s very general comments on their own talk page about possible Monsanto promotional activity are not equivalent to SageRad or David Tornheim’s comments which were (A) on article talk pages and dispute resolution forums, and (B) called out specific editors and edits.

2. Groupuscule has long been inactive from the GMO area, and may have been unaware of the arbcom case; the 1st diff in this filing predates the Discretionary Sanctions notice by 8 days. Groupuscule’s single revert on

Groupuscule is a valuable contributor with 3000+ edits over 10+ years. This user at least deserves a warning prior to a subject block, when the call for that block has been drawn largely from comments posted to that user's own user space.Dialectric (talk) 20:14, 20 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by (username)

Result concerning Groupuscule

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

• In and of themselves, the edits aren't terribly problematic, but as a group and together with the other evidence in the complaint I do get the impression that Groupuscule is here primarily to promote their own view of the issue, often in a confrontational manner and by insinuating that other editors with a different view are paid sockpuppets. This conduct is not compatible with editing in a high-tension topic area subject to discretionary sanctions. I am therefore considering a 3-month topic ban.  Sandstein  10:06, 20 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
• Persistent shill aspersions in this area are unacceptable, and there's obviously tendentious editing generally. I support a topic ban of at least three months. Bishonen | talk 12:03, 20 November 2017 (UTC).[reply]
  • Following
    Kingofaces43's new comment above, I would now like to propose an indefinite topic ban from genetically modified organisms, broadly construed, with an option invitation to appeal here after three months. (I crossed out "option" because appealing is always an option.) Bishonen | talk 16:57, 20 November 2017 (UTC).[reply
    ]
• I agree with Sandstein and Bishonen; a TBAN is appropriate here. If this were not a first sanction I'd argue for longer than three months, but it is their first so I think they should be given a chance to learn from it; two to three months seems appropriate. I also think we should delete User:Groupuscule/GMO; it is at least skirting NOTWEBHOST and it's unlikely to be helpful in the context of a topic ban (though I note it hasn't been edited in more than two years). GoldenRing (talk) 12:53, 20 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
• Taking into consideration the above, Groupuscule is indefinitely topic-banned from from genetically modified organisms. They are invited to appeal the ban after three months and explain how they intend to change their approach to editing in this topic area.  Sandstein  08:24, 21 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Favonian

User who is submitting this request for enforcement

Me choose (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 14:09, 26 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

User against whom enforcement is requested

Favonian (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

I received an insulting email. I wanted to check my account for unblock. I think they got me wrong with someone. But my User-Agent is different from that person. I sent my request from here. otrs kept silent, And they did not give me a ticket.--Me choose (talk) 14:09, 26 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Sanction or remedy to be enforced

Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/CASENAME#SECTION :

Diffs

of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

1. Date Explanation
2. Date Explanation
3. Date Explanation
4. Date Explanation

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

1. Date Explanation
2. Date Explanation

If

WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts

)

• Mentioned by name in the Arbitration Committee's Final Decision linked to above.
• Previously blocked as a discretionary sanction for conduct in the area of conflict, see the block log linked to above.
• Previously given a discretionary sanction for conduct in the area of conflict on Date by
  talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA
  ).
• Alerted about discretionary sanctions in the area of conflict in the last twelve months, see the system log linked to above.
• Gave an alert about discretionary sanctions in the area of conflict in the last twelve months, on Date
• Participated in an arbitration request or enforcement procedure about the area of conflict in the last twelve months, on Date.
• Successfully appealed all their own sanctions relating to the area of conflict in the last twelve months, on Date.

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Discussion concerning USERNAME

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by USERNAME

Statement by (username)

Result concerning USERNAME

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Anythingyouwant

User who is submitting this request for enforcement

Volunteer Marek (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 04:02, 26 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

User against whom enforcement is requested

Anythingyouwant (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced

Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/American politics 2 : [29]. Discretionary sanctions, including a 1RR restriction and the "consensus required" provision added to the article on 0:31 November 11 2017 [30] by User:TonyBallioni. Note that below Tony indicates that the addition of the "consensus required" provision was very much intentional.

Diffs

of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

1. [31] 22:20 November 26 2017
2. [32] 1:03 November 26 November. Restoring text challenged by reversion [33]

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

1. [34] Previously banned from post 1935 American politics

If

WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts

)

• Previously given a discretionary sanction for conduct in the area of conflict on 10:46, 27 October 2016 by Vanamonde93 (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA).

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

I'm not sure if this is a 1RR violation, but it is obviously a violation of the "consensus required" provision which is in effect on the page and which it seems admins have decided needs enforcing. The edit was obviously challenged by reversion. The claim that this was a BLP issue is spurious. See also the edit summaries by

When an editor (me) does what two other editors request - I did not request for you to make that edit and afaict, neither did MrX. I think that was pretty clear from both our comments. Volunteer Marek  09:36, 26 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@GoldenRing:: " VM says this is "spurious" but other editors here agree with Anythingyouwant" - no, they don't. What page are you reading??? Your comment was made at 16:30. At the time you wrote this FOUR editors (in addition to myself), including TWO administrators said that this clearly is NOT a BLP violation. Those would be Specifico, MelanieN and MrX. TWO editors, Atsme and DHeyward said it was a BLP violation. Two or three didn't address the BLP issue. Since you made your comment TWO additional editors have said it wasn't a BLP violation. If you're gonna participate at WP:AE in an administrative capacity can you please at least read the statements before "summarizing" them?  Volunteer Marek  18:50, 26 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

As to the question of whether it's a BLP violation - it's not. The info is well sourced. The text is straight from the source. Anythingyouwant is pretending on the talk page that the text is something other than what it really is as a pretext for removing it. This is not a BLP vio, this is WP:GAMEing, like User:MrX points out. Just like Anythingyouwant falsely claiming that either I or MrX "requested" he make the edit is WP:GAMEing. Volunteer Marek  18:52, 26 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

And this comment " The second is that MrX reverted the removal of material that was clearly challenged on good-faith BLP grounds" - is completely ass backwards. Anythingyouwant is edit warring, repeatedly inserting challenged content in violation of the discretionary sanction which just recently YOU insisted MUST be enforced, yet here for some reason you want to... sanction the editor making the challenge rather than the one violating DS. What gives?  Volunteer Marek  18:55, 26 November 2017 (UTC) either @Anythingyouwant: - regarding this claim (quote: "You might also take a look at the adjectives used to describe me at this page, and personally I prefer to be called lots of nasty adjectives than to be..."), can you point out any of these "nasty adjectives" which are being "used to describe" you, "at this page"? Cuz I just read the whole thing again and I don't see a single adjective being used to describe you, nasty or otherwise (I skipped Atsme and DHayward's statements for obvious reasons). Volunteer Marek  23:21, 26 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Anythingyouwant: - " I'd rather not get bogged down making such a list for you." - in other words, nobody called you any adjectives, nasty or otherwise, and you just made that up. Here, I'll make this list for you: {empty set}. Volunteer Marek  06:42, 27 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Anythingyouwant: - yes, the diff does contain the adjective "nasty" but it is not being used to describe you, but rather to describe something else. You claimed, quote: "You might also take a look at the adjectives used to describe me at this page, and personally I prefer to be called lots of nasty adjectives than to be...". This isn't difficult. Why do you insist on completely misrepresenting something which is easy to check? This is very similar to your insistence on the false claim that either I or MrX "requested" you make the edit. Volunteer Marek  06:59, 27 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Vanamonde93: That first edit is indeed a revert, of this edit. Anythingyouwant just waited a few days to sneak that revert in. Don't let him bamboozle you. Closely verify every claim he makes. Volunteer Marek  06:59, 27 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

While you're at it you might want to look at this statement by Anythingyouwant right here at WP:AE for another example of

@GoldenRing: - Re [38]. I didn't misread anything. Perhaps you miswrote. Your comment about "others disagree" was clearly meant to insinuate, falsely, that the majority of opinion was against me, when actually the opposite was the case. If you wanted to say "some editors disagreed, others agreed" then that's what you should have written. And frankly, you can always count on ideological supporters - on both sides - to show up and back the editor who matches with their POV. That's why more experienced AE admins usually ignore "the peanut gallery". The difference here is that even editors who can't be accused of being on one side or the other (MelanieN, EvergreenFir, Vanamonde - two admins in there) disagreed with you and Anythingyouwant. Anythingyouwant DID NOT get support or agreement from anyone who's political views are not immediately obvious.

And you're trying to twist the situation up on its head again: "the principle that edits done to address good-faith BLP objections shouldn't be reverted without consensus is a good one". Again, it was Anythingyouwant who was violating the DS sanction, not the person who challenged their edits. Why do you keep trying to make this out to be something it's not? Just a few days ago you were adamant that the "consensus required" provision needs to be enforced. Yet here you're flippin' 180 degrees. Volunteer Marek  09:36, 27 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Sandstein: added dates, remedy, edt. Volunteer Marek  14:51, 27 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

[39]

Discussion concerning Anythingyouwant

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Anythingyouwant

I was indeed banned from post-1932 politics; it was for less than two weeks, from 27 October 2016 to 9 November 2016. The present article is controversial, and my effort here was simply to conform it to reliable sources like any article should be. There is no allegation of a 1RR violation here, and I didn't violate 1RR. The issue here is whether I reinstated an edit that was challenged by User:MrX. I did not.

My edit #1, at 22:20 on 25 November 2017 (with my added language in bold) said that the BLP subject:

did not deny approaching or dating teenagers above the age of consent.^[1]

References

1. Washington Post
   (November 16, 2017): “I adamantly deny the allegations of Leigh Corfman and Beverly Nelson, did not date underage girls, and have taken steps to begin a civil action for defamation.”

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning NadirAli

User who is submitting this request for enforcement

Kautilya3 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 10:46, 28 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

User against whom enforcement is requested

NadirAli (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced

Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/India-Pakistan: ARBIPA

Diffs

of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

1. 19 November 2017 and 19 November: Cutting-and-pasting indicating proxy editing
2. 19 November and 19 November: More of the same
3. 19 November: "Misshaps" having occurred in cutting-and-pasting

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

1. 4 March 2007 ARBCOM sanction (blocked for a year)
2. December 2015 ARBCOM cautiously lifting sanction

If

WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts

)

• Mentioned by name in the Arbitration Committee's Final Decision linked to above.
• Gave an alert about discretionary sanctions in the area of conflict in the last twelve months, on 4 April 2017

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

[My apologies for the length of this complaint, but it is an unusual one.]

NadirAli is an old hand of the ARBIPA sanctions. After multiple blocks and topic bans, the ARBCOM has very cautiously lifted his topic ban in December 2015. Unfortunately, NadirAli's conduct was rarely above board since then, with frequent edit-warring and POV-pushing reported. This ANI complaint and my input there represented the situation as of mid-summer 2017.

Things have changed quite dramatically since then. In contrast to mindless POV pushing and incoherent talk page argumentation that used to be his hallmark, NadirAli has taken to editing sophisticated content on difficult topics like

• "Yes there is under WP:COMMONNAME", "it states the Persian word for India", "I'll even quote the Persian term" (On Talk:Hindustan), or
• "but from my understanding is that numerous edits have been revoked" (on Talk:Persecution of Hindus).

Compare that to the language like:

• "even though nationalities do not matter on Wikipedia", "Nor can we use Lerner's hesitancy" and "we have explicit statements to the contrary" (On Talk:Radcliffe Line), or
• "on Nehru's urging", "would not have gained access", "Shiren Ilahi does not counter this" (on Talk:Kashmir conflict)

There is a strong indication that the words of different individuals are being presented to us under the umbrella of one user account.

An analysis reveals a strong correlation with the interests of

• Towns Hill got topic banned and blocked for failure to follow
  WP:NPOV, and using mediocre or corner place sources (such as Sarmila Bose here) and giving them UNDUE prominence. We see NadirAli doing the same now. Here, for example, he is pushing for "tertiary sources like Schofield", referring to Victoria Schofield
  , who is a writer without any academic credentials non-academic writer on Kashmir conflict and is probably unsuitable for settling issues about contentious content.
• Between 4:05AM and 4:51AM on 19 November 2017, he added some fifteen thousand bytes of text to essentially settled sections of Kashmir conflict, most of which is of dubious merit. These edits show evidence of cutting and pasting from somewhere, possibly email messages or files (because section titles got duplicated and "misshaps" have occurred in the process).
• Almost all the edits to the Towns Hill interest pages (listed below) were made between 22:00 and 08:00 UTC, when Towns Hill is known to be active. In his own edits, NadirAli made edits outside this frame, e.g., [54].
• He added citations with embedded quotes, e.g., on Indo-Pakistani War of 1971, like Towns Hill used to do. The embedded quotation is funnily different from the information in the blockquote (15 to 1 vs. five-to-one). He seems to have no idea of the difference. Struggles to get the citation inside the blockquote [55], and gives up. Why did he add a citation with a quote for a blockquote? It says something different too? (Repeated this at Bangladesh Liberation War.)
• In one instance, he added a citation produced by the Visual editor even though he himself never used the Visual editor. In his own editing NadirAli often uses only bare urls and gets reFill to expand them.
• On two pages, he cited numerous book reviews published in journals. No indication of how he obtained these reviews. No DOIs or URLs have been given. In his own editing, NadirAli rarely cited any journals.

To make sure that I wasn't totally wrong about all this, I went through all his edits over the last 12 months that added 400 bytes or more. There were 112 such edits. Other than the Towns Hill interests listed below, only five of those edits cited (possibly) scholarly sources: [56], [57], [58], [59]. This is the sum total of NadirAli's scholarly contribution to Wikipedia in a whole year. Yet we are expected to believe that he is able to add 15,000 bytes of scholarly content in an hour at Kashmir conflict. He is brow-beating us.

I am requesting input from the admins familiar with the Towns Hill case: EdJohnston, Bishonen, Vanamonde93, Bbb23, RegentsPark

Towns Hill pages picked up by NadirAli

• Bangladesh Liberation War (Towns Hill: 30 edits, NadirAli: 5 edits afterwards, starting 24 September)
• Indo-Pakistani War of 1971 (Towns Hill: 16 edits, NadirAli: 3 edits afterwards, starting 14 September)
• 1971 Bangladesh Genocide (Towns Hill: 55 edits , NadirAli: 7 edits afterwards, starting 4 September)
• Kashmiris (Towns Hill: 188 edits, NadirAli: 25 edits, since 14 August)
• Gilgit-Baltistan (Towns Hill: 5 edits, NadirAli: 7 edits, starting 16 September)
• Muhammad Ali Jinnah (Towns Hill: 7 edits, NadirAli: 32 edits afterwards, starting 28 June)
• Kashmir conflict (Towns Hill: 38 edits, NadirAli: 40 edits afterwards, starting 26 May)
• Talk:Kashmir Conflict (Towns Hill: 39 edits, NadirAli: 24 edits afterwards, starting 3 June)
• Sectarian violence in Pakistan (formerly called Sectarianism in Pakistan) (Towns Hill: 4 edits, NadirAli: 6 edits afterwards, starting 30 March 2017, with a long break since 11 July 2016).
• Partition of India (Towns Hill: 46 edits, NadirAli: 33 edits, NadirAli was mildly active on this page till October 2016, but most of his edits were after 3 April 2017)

New pages with similar or related content

• Victoria Schofield (2 edits, since 25 November)
• Howard Bruner Schaffer (page created by NadirAli; 7 edits, since 23 November)
• Insurgency in Jammu and Kashmir (3 edits, since 19 October)
• Radcliffe Line (6 edits, since 29 June); Talk:Radcliffe Line (10 edits, since 26 October)
• 1946 Cabinet Mission to India (3 edits since 10 November)

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

28 November 2017

In response to Black Kite and Mar4d, I certainly did not bring this complaint to discuss content issues or quality of sources. Mechanisms like DRN and RfC serve perfectly fine. The key issue for this complaint is: is NadirAli doing proxy edits for a blocked user? I am afraid the issue is a weighty one. If we let banned or blocked users continue to edit by proxy via registered users, our whole conduct management process becomes meaningless. Moreover, is Mar4d suggesting that all the users that got sanctioned in the past (my "foes") did so merely because I complained?

Sandstein, I would have thought that SPI would be right venue. But my complaint about Owais Khursheed's proxy editing was ignored as well as another one for Samm19. So I have had to escalate. Ignoring these complaints is only serving to embolden the blocked user. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 17:52, 28 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

WP:SPI is where this complaint needs to go, I will be happy to take it there. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 02:06, 29 November 2017 (UTC)[reply

]

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by NadirAli

Statement by Black Kite

As soon as I got to the first bullet point I thought "really?" To wit, "Here, for example, he is pushing for "tertiary sources like Schofield", referring to Victoria Schofield, who is a writer without any academic credentials".

According to her article, Schofield has a Masters in Modern History from Oxford University. You don't get much more credentialed than that. I didn't bother reading past that point. Black Kite (talk) 11:05, 28 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Capitals00

The significant issue is that I had filed an ARE months ago[60] and NadirAli was warned not to edit war, but he has continued. First removing content[61] without summary or explanation, then edit warring.[62][63] NadirAli also attempted to canvass[64][65] during this dispute.

Edit warring on

NadirAli makes his claims without giving diffs. Starting with his claim that last ARE only concerned an incident where he was "edit warring against Faizan" but that's deceptive of NadirAli because he was engaged in multiple edit wars, and also a page move war, the same day when ARE was filed. Misrepresenting me here as "who's been on Wikipedia hardly two years"[68] despite I am editing since December 2012, over 5 years now. Also nonsensical is his claim about an unknown IP [69] because no IP has canvassed me against NadirAli.

@Sandstein and Dennis Brown: In addition to his evident deception, long term edit warring which could be seen on Hindustan,

I was just made aware of this issue. I would have to say first, that Kautilya's allegations regarding Hindustan are ridiculous. He has persistently supported removing of supporting sources with unreliable content and original research and I wasn't alone in this concern while accusing me of edit warring when I restored it. I'll respond to some of the other allegations shortly.--NadirAli نادر علی (talk) 22:17, 28 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

From my understanding, there is an allegation being made against me that I'm somehow connected to the banned user TownsHill. In the last ARE filed against me, I was accused by Capitals00 (who's been active on Wikipedia hardly two years) of edit warring against Faizan, who violated the

Three revert rule, but turned out to be the same as TownsHill. This was revealed before the last report was filed against me. I hope the paradox of these allegations are being noticed by neutral observers.--NadirAli نادر علی (talk) 22:31, 28 November 2017 (UTC)[reply

]

I also find the WP:UNDUE allegation laughable and ridiculous, since the Indian editors insert undue content all the time (commonly poorly sourced) and violate it as they please, but cite it when it involves something not desirable to them.--NadirAli نادر علی (talk) 23:55, 28 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The canvassing argument is rich coming from one who responded to an IPs canvassing calls and filed an ARE. I also think the idea I only use Refill every time is a blatant lie. Looking through my editing history, I have manually fixed and produced both website and book citations. I can now connect with Mar4d statements.--NadirAli نادر علی (talk) 01:53, 29 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The blatant deception above can be disproven easily and constitutes

WP:POT, but I'd rather not waste my time with this and don't think it is necessary to respond.--NadirAli نادر علی (talk) 07:03, 29 November 2017 (UTC)[reply

]

• To editor RegentsPark:, my apologies. I was referring to cultural bias and not seeking to generalize Indian users on Wikipedia as a whole, rather that the Indian users in question and their behavior. I mean to take care to be more specific in the future. I also hope that the paradox of these allegations that I pointed out above have been taken into note. I have nothing further to state.--NadirAli نادر علی (talk) 20:25, 29 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by MPS1992

@Black Kite: the comment "a writer without any academic credentials" is indeed incorrect and a BLP violation if the person concerned has a Master's degree from Oxford. However, "You don't get much more credentialed than that" is also incorrect: this is normally just an undergraduate degree. MPS1992 (talk) 22:59, 28 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Result concerning NadirAli

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

• Waiting for a response by NadirAli. Also, to Kautilya3: this is essentially an allegation of meatpuppetry. Wouldn't it be better to first start a
  WP:SPI investigation, where there are experts in such matters, before requesting action based on whatever result the SPI may yield?  Sandstein  17:22, 28 November 2017 (UTC)[reply
  ]

• Kautilya3, you mention that you applied to SPI. Please link to that investigation.  Sandstein  20:00, 28 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
• I would take no action here and refer the matter to
  WP:SPI, which is the dedicated forum for investigating sock- or meatpuppetry. Kautilya3 now links to two previous SPIs, but these seem to concern different users and were successful insofar as they resulted in blocks. I therefore don't understand why Kautilya3 describes their SPI requests as being "ignored". Sandstein 22:24, 28 November 2017 (UTC)[reply
  ]

• @Kautilya3: Please reduce the length of your complaint as much as possible. Complaints are limited to 500 words and 20 diffs except with approval by a reviewing administrator. ~ Rob₁₃^Talk 22:36, 28 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
• This does look more like an SPI case than an WP:AE case, and would suggest it be taken there, as per Sandstein. Admin at AE lack the tools to deal with the issue presented. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 22:44, 28 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
•  Checkuser note: NadirAli and Faizan are  Unrelated. See Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/NadirAli.--Bbb23 (talk) 02:59, 29 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
• Kautilya3, it is very very difficult to prove meatpuppetry (I assume you don't think there is any sock puppetry here) so my suggestion is that you address the content on the talk page and see where that goes. As a general rule, the best way to deal with content issues is to try to establish clear consensus on each issue, mark it on the talk page, and then refer back to that consensus when new editors arrive. @NadirAli:, do note that statements of this sort the Indian editors insert undue content all the time (commonly poorly sourced) and violate it as they please are unacceptable and would have lead to an immediate block had you made that on any of the Kashmir conflict pages. Focus on content, not on your perceptions of the national origins of editors. --regentspark (comment) 15:29, 29 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning James J. Lambden

User who is submitting this request for enforcement

NorthBySouthBaranof (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 05:25, 1 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

User against whom enforcement is requested

James J. Lambden (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

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Sanction or remedy to be enforced

WP:ARBAP2

• One-month topic ban from "all articles and edits related to Donald Trump, broadly construed," under
  WP:ARBAP2 to run from 15 November, imposed by User:GoldenRing
  after a WP:AE discussion.

1. 30 November - Edit to Talk:Patriot Prayer, an article about a group explicitly known for organizing rallies in support of Donald Trump; it's right there in the lede of the article: The group organizes pro-Trump rallies and other protests in predominantly liberal areas..

If

WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts

)

Not applicable; relates to existing topic ban.

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

I noted the violation and asked the user to self-revert the violation; they responded by reverting my notification and calling it "bullying". Given that they won't self-revert, this is the unfortunately necessary option. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 05:25, 1 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Notified here.

Discussion concerning James J. Lambden

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by James J. Lambden

It is waste of time to file a complaint for a talk page edit which I suggested be discussed with the administrator who imposed the topic ban. My comment had nothing to do with Trump and the subject's association with Trump is disputed. According to our article "mentions of Trump have mostly been scrubbed from [the group's] rhetoric." If I am to interpret this topic ban as applying to every article that mentions Trump it is effectively a ban on most AP2 articles. As that was not the ban imposed it is not reasonable to assume it was the intention.

Had a non-partisan editor or administrator suggested I remove the comment I would have. In fact earlier today I unintentionally violated the topic ban, which I caught and reverted, asking the administrator who imposed the ban for clarification precisely to avoid these issues. James J. Lambden (talk) 05:42, 1 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Aquillion: It is disputed. Again from our article "mentions of Trump have mostly been scrubbed from [the group's] rhetoric." My interest is because they are a pro-speech group. For the same reason I have edited

@Masem: I do not see how in a sanction here would be preventative rather than punitive. I attempted to clarify the scope of the topic ban with GoldenRing hours before that edit to determine whether the scope should be interpreted so broadly. Whatever the decision I would have respected it. A simple clarification from GoldenRing will be 100% "preventative." James J. Lambden (talk) 07:02, 1 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by uninvolved Beyond My Ken

Three (obvious) points:

• Topic bans pertain to all pages on Wikipedia, including talk pages;
• The ban against editing about Trump is to be "broadly construed" and since "mentions of Trump have mostly been scrubbed from [the group's] rhetoric" it most have once been in their rhetoric, which makes them connected to Trunp as far as the "broadly construed" standard is concerned;
• That JJL would have reverted the edit if a "non-partisan" editor had asked, but would not do so for someone he considers to be partisan simply indicates that he does not understand the nature of the topic ban: if the edit was a violation, it was a violation period, no matter who brought it to his attention. Beyond My Ken (talk) 06:39, 1 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Aquillion

Just as a note, the group's association with Trump is not disputed. Just looking at the discussion that Lambden linked above makes that obvious; the dispute was not over whether the group's primary activity was pro-Trump rallies (all versions described their pro-Trump position prominently within the first or second sentence) - the dispute was over whether they stood for anything else at all. But organizing pro-Trump rallies is their primary activity (and this has been prominent in every stable version of the lead, as well as detailed in the article itself); James J. Lambden knows this, having edited the article for a while. I think, given the fact that James J. Lambden's user page consists (as of this writing) solely of a giant picture of Trump, it is reasonable to conclude that the fact that the group primarily organizes pro-Trump rallies is his main reason for editing the page. --Aquillion (talk) 06:37, 1 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by (username)

Result concerning James J. Lambden

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

• Taking the usual meaning for "broadly construed", I cannot see how Patriot Prayer can be consider outside the "broadly construed" topic area around Trump, given the group was formed in response to reactions to pro-Trump activists. "Broadly construed" in nearly every Arbcom case has been taken that one should be using extreme caution and keep a far distance from what could be considered close to the warned off topic area to avoid potential admin/AE action. Yes, this might mean that most pages on post-2015 topics that would fall under AP2 are offlimits at this point to JJL under these terms. Support appropriate action here. --MASEM (t) 06:54, 1 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
• Because this concerns an alleged violation of a sanction made by GoldenRing (talk · contribs), I suggest that they determine what to do here. Sandstein 07:52, 1 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]