Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive52

Request concerning Brews ohare

User requesting enforcement

Tznkai (talk) 22:26, 7 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

User against whom enforcement is requested

Brews ohare (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction or remedy that this user violated

Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Speed_of_light#Brews_ohare_topic_banned

Diffs

of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

See edits to "Multigrid method", explanation below.

Diffs of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required by the remedy)

N/A

Enforcement action requested (

other sanction

)

Ban, one year

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

As can be seen in the archive I placed a restriction on Brews ohare under one of the Speed of light case remedies about two weeks ago, quoted below verbatim:

Brews ohare is indefinitely restricted from editing Wikipedia and Wikipedia talk namespaces. (Exceptions listed below) Brews ohare is restricted from editing any namespaces to begin, or comment on physics related content, disputes stemming from physics-related content, meta-discussion or meta-content (policy, guidelines, essays, polls, RfCs and the like) concerning the editing of scientific topics in general, or physics in particular, or the recognition of minority views. As always, there a recognized exception for Arbitration proceedings concerning the Brews ohare (up to the discretion of the Arbitration Committee and appropriate clerks), as well as as the natural exception for responding to administrative threads seeking to sanction Brews ohare, as well as participating in Arbitration related elections and election discussions. This sanction will be reviewed in two weeks.

In the intervening period Brews O'hare has edited exactly one article, multigrid method. That article is unambiguously within of his general physics topic ban, as it is in the category computational physics. Under that circumstance it is my intention to ban him for a year. Comments are encouraged/--Tznkai (talk) 22:26, 7 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion concerning Brews ohare

Statement by Brews ohare

It was considered by Finell and by Count Iblis among others that a purely mathematical article such as Multigrid method did not lie within my ban. It is perfectly obvious that any mathematics has applications: hence the inclusion of this article under category computational physics. However, absolutely no physics is discussed. The article also is in categories numerical analysis and partial differential equations, and any articles in these categories naturally also have ramifications in any science that uses math, which implies in no way that the math is the science. The science uses the math as a tool (just like it uses the English language in English speaking areas) by interpreting its constructions in the manner that the science finds useful, and that attachment of meaning to math symbols and concepts is the actual science part of that application. No such science applications occur in Multigrid method.

Moreover, it is evident that my contributions to this article are very far from controversial, consisting primarily of adding sources with google book links, a few general links to discussions of the material, and some minor reorganizations to accommodate these changes.

My view is that (i) no violation has occurred, and (ii) my actions have been entirely supportive of WP and further its objectives and (iii) no controversy has arisen or is likely to arise over these additions. Any action such as that proposed here by Tznkai is strictly punitive in nature and advances no objective of WP. Brews ohare (talk) 22:40, 7 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by others about the request concerning Brews ohare

Are you suggesting that the article is improperly categorized? --Tznkai (talk) 23:06, 7 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Tznkai: The category computational physics indicates that applications to physics are in use or are of interest; it does not mean that the article discusses these physics applications per se. Brews ohare (talk) 23:44, 7 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Tznkai, as a physicist, computational physics are usually much more concerned part with the computational part of things than the physics part of things. This is a computational method used in computational physics, but this is not about the physics part of things, it's very clearly about the computational method, and the theory of the method. I'll agree that Brews is walking on a very thin line here, but it seems like a genuine effort to get back to editing productively.

The current ban seems sufficient for now.

WP Physics} 23:20, 7 December 2009 (UTC)[reply

]

I tend to agree with Headbomb. The categorization of the article Multigrid method indeed seems somewhat odd. Physics is, of course, a field of science that uses math extensively, but the mathematical concepts that this article describes are fairly general an can be used in many other fields of science. (It would be unhelpful to categorize 90% of all mathematics articles as "physics" or "X physics", just because there is some use of the concepts in physics.) A different question is whether and how the article is related to physics.  Cs32en  23:50, 7 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Per Headbomb, I'm tempted to suggest letting this one go. "Computational physics" is to "physics" what "social science" is to "science". (I exaggerate somewhat, but the point is made.) While multigrid method does have applications in certain parts of physics, the article is essentially about the mathematics. Brews appears to be making thorough, detailed, productive contributions: adding numerous high-quality sources, and roughly doubling the length of the article. This article appears to be well away from any sort of argument or potential argument about fringe or alternative interpretations of physics principles (which was the trouble in the RfArb). I'm also willing to give a little bit of credit for honesty, as it was Brews who added the 'computational physics' category to the article in the first place: [18].

On the other hand, I'd also be inclined to strongly encourage both Brews' detractors and his supporters to just bite your tongues, stay off his talk page, and find something else to talk about for a bit. It's not helpful in any way for editors to make comments like this, as it encourages Brews to endorse and defend them as here, which further encourages him to get back into the cycle of escalating bickering which will end, ultimately, in a permanent ban. I think it would be enormously helpful for Brews to ignore the back-and-forth on his talk page, and for all of Finell, Bob K31416, Count Iblis, Hell in a Bucket, Dicklyon, David Tombe to help him out by just staying well clear. I'd like everyone on that list to try a little experiment — until 1 January 2010, try not talking about either Brews' topic ban or the ArbCom — especially not on Brews' talk page, or anywhere he's likely to be watching. You're not helping. At all. Just let it go for a bit. Give him an honest chance to get away from controversy and do some article editing. In exchange for this, I'd also expect Brews to refrain from any of his own whinging in his userspace since I'm certain that he's not interested in courting further conflict, right? Is that too much to ask? TenOfAllTrades(talk) 00:16, 8 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Re "little experiment — until 1 January 2010" - OK, will do. --Bob K31416 (talk) 03:05, 8 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Strongly oppose a site-wide 1 year ban, any broadening of Brews' topic ban, or any sanction based on Brews' editing of Multigrid method. It is an article about pure mathematics, specifically a methodology in numerical analysis used to solve a broad classes of mathematical problems, especially (as the article states) "the numerical solution of elliptic partial differential equations in two or more dimensions" (i.e., calculus). Like other mathematics, including basic arithmetic, it has very broad practical applications in many fields, including physics, engineering, economics, genetics, and lots else.

Brews' editing of this math article is exactly what all the arbitrators who commented at the last enforcement request, and several administrators, and several other experienced editors have been urging Brews to do. I was delighted when I discovered today that Brews was working on this non-controversial math article, instead of engaging in policy disputes. And the result? Brews took a long neglected article (no edits since April) on advanced mathematics and, in 5 days of methodical editing, he substantially improved and expanded the article. This diff shows just Brews' work on the article through today. Brews appropriately raised a couple issues at Talk:Multigrid method for discussion with other editors, fixed a copyright violation, and otherwise behaved as a model Wikipedian.

Brews should not be sanctioned for this constructive, encyclopedia-building behavior.—Finell 00:24, 8 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with Headbomb, Finell, TenOfAllTrades, and Cs32en about this issue. Note that physics is a huge field and ultimately everything is to some extent physics related (everything that happens in the universe is a consequence of the laws of physics, even me typing this message).

Brews is an engineering professor whose interests seem to primarily lie within his professional expertise. The fact that he is editing an article that lies within his interest and yet is sticking to the topic ban (interpreted in a reasonable way) should be considered to be a good thing. Particularly considering all the negative comments Brews got when he was contributing to policy related pages. Arbcom intervention and sanctions such as topic bans should be a solution to a problem, not an obstacle causing additional problems.Count Iblis (talk) 00:33, 8 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree with TenOfAllTrades that we should not interact with Brews at all. I agree that we should not start discussions relating to old conflicts related to the Arbcom case like e.g. Dicklyon did recently. But I see nothing wrong discussing with Brews some topics that he could contribute to. Count Iblis (talk) 00:33, 8 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Consider my comment suitably amended. As a gesture of good faith, do you think it might be wise not to take shots at those other editors while you're in the process of committing to leave old conflicts behind? Please? TenOfAllTrades(talk) 01:12, 8 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed! I won't do that anymore. Note that Finell and I have made suggestions to Brews about what he could contribute to. It was also a good thing that others keep following these discussions as it is very easy to by accident suggest some topic to Brews that is actually too much physics related (happened to Finell some time ago). Count Iblis (talk) 01:48, 8 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Strongly oppose I can't see any breach of the topic ban here. The subject in question is Numerical analysis which is an applied mathematics subject. Just because physics often uses maths as a language of expression, doesn't mean that maths always has to be physics. Physics uses the English language too. Would you consider it to be a breach of his physics topic ban if he edited at Charles Dickens? Brews was not editing on anything related to physics. Why did anybody even bother to think about punishing Brews for making the edits in question? He was clearly acting in good faith, without causing controversy, and in doing so, helping the project within his area of expertise. It came as a total surprise to me to discover that Tzntai had decided that he wanted to punish Brews for making those good faith edits. I thought I'd seen it all here, but obviously not. David Tombe (talk) 02:41, 8 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This discussion is exactly why I wanted this review done on AE, and why I invited comments (though I'm moderately annoyed by the occasional and unnecessarily personalized digressions), so thanks to all for commenting. I am not well versed in higher mathematics or physics, and the categorization seemed to be physics related per se. In any case, there seems to be strong consensus that Brews ohare has been playing ball, in which case I'm likley to maintain the current sanction, and review it again in say, four weeks. Any comments, questions, concerns, or requests?--Tznkai (talk) 06:32, 8 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Since this can easily repeat itself (e.g. Brews could improve the

Borel resummation

article, which are not directly physics related either, but to lay persons that's not clear), you could think of implementing a mentoring agreement in which Brews notifies a mentor who knows a lot about physics and who is familiar with the Arbcom case whenever he wants to edit anything of a scientific nature.

E.g. Headbomb would be a suitable mentor (he wants to become an Admin, so it may be good for his cv). The mentor then doesn't have to restrict Brews from editing any physics related page, just those pages that in the judgement of the mentor are likely to produce the same kind of trouble that the Arbcom case was about. Arbitration enforcement will then only come into play if Brews violates the mentoring argeement.

In practice this can mean that the mentor could allow Brews to edit an article on electronics which would now fall within his topic ban, while he could be barred from editing an article on some philosophical topic, if the mentor thinks that this could lead to similar problems as on the speed of light article, even if such a topic is not physics related at all. Count Iblis (talk) 15:50, 8 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

No harm, no foul. If Brews is off quietly improving an article, there is no need for anybody to take judicial notice. As long as there is no complaint that Brews caused a content dispute, or initiated disruption on a talk page or project page, I recommend ignoring him. Jehochman ^Talk 15:56, 8 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

A key point (which I failed to emphasize in my original post) is that Tznkai shouldn't be lambasted for bringing his own concerns here for review. It's not a particularly great stretch to assume that an article in the 'computational physics' category is an article on a "physics-related" topic, "broadly construed" (per the extant ArbCom remedy). Indeed, if Brews' editing there had not been exemplary – and if he had not been adhering closely to the other provisions noted above – I might well have been inclined to consider multigrid method to fall within the broadly construed provisions of his topic ban.

A mentor who has an advanced level of knowledge in the areas of mathematics and physics and who is willing to review Brews' article selections in light of his topic ban could be a very valuable resource. Such a mentor should not be afraid to come here first, if there is any doubt about whether or not an article falls within the bounds of Brews' topic ban.

I don't think it would be wise at this time for a mentor to attempt to explore ways to further narrow the scope of Brews' current ban. (And I do wish that Count Iblis would take at least a short break from his ongoing attempts to rewrite Brews' restrictions, especially given his commitment to do so just a little ways up the page.) So far he's been editing one article productively, for all of four days. It's a good first step, and I hope to see more work in that direction — but it's not a sufficient basis for rewriting the remedies under which he has just begun to edit. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 17:19, 8 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

My take on this is that the problem area is not physics in general, but issues related to

relativistic physics.  Cs32en  19:02, 8 December 2009 (UTC)[reply

]

No. The topic ban in the arbitration decision is "physics, broadly construed". It is not limited to relativistic physics. On the other hand, it does not extend to pure mathematics, which is what the Multigrid method article is—despite the fact that one of the several categories to which it is assigned is computational physics. Like many math articles, this one could be assigned to many more categories, because math and its sub-disciplines have very broad applications. But assigning math articles to applications is not necessarily a good idea; if you did this literally, you would have to assign the Arithmetic article to categories like carpentry, cooking, and a few hundred or thousand others.—Finell 06:56, 9 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry for creating this misunderstanding. I did not want to reinterpret the existing arbitration decision, but just state my opinion on where the actual problem area is.  Cs32en  14:36, 9 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The imposition of mentorship on Brews is not called for by anything he has done. In the arbitration, I proposed that the arbitrators require mentorship for Brews as a remedy, but the arbitrators decided not to. I also suggested to Brews that he propose mentorship himself; if he had, the decision against him might have been less severe. But he did not offer to be mentored, and he has not done so since. Since he did not do anything wrong by editing Multigrid method—although it was reasonable of Tznkai to raise the question, and he to be commended for not blocking or banning Brews on his own)—there is no reason to impose mentorship as an additional remedy when the arbitrators didn't—Finell 07:07, 9 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Whether the article itself is within the physics topic? Not necessarily. But does computational physics relate to the physics topic? Unambiguously. Adding or removing categories relating to the physics topics would constitute editing within the topic, and therefore a violation of the topic ban. This is where Brews added the category "Computational physics" to the article and thereby violated his topic ban. Ncmvocalist (talk) 07:44, 9 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I understand, and that was a really dopey thing for Brews to do. Adding the category was unnecessary, and nothing else in the article or in Brews' editing of it would have raised any question about violating Brews' topic ban. But Brews' bad judgment in assigning that unnecessary category should not be a basis for sanctioning him, especially in this context. Brews is doing what everyone else urged him to do: drop the stick and peacefully improve Wikipedia by making articles better.—Finell 18:04, 9 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I don't understand: adding a category is not discussion of a topic, and not a conflict with sanctions; it is just a convenient toehold for readers who might find the topic useful. It is beyond any imagining that adding a category should be a disciplinary issue or conflict in any way with the goals of WP. A narrow minded, nitpicking interpretation of the sanctions does nothing for WP, and WP welfare should be the first thing on admin's minds; not the legalistic, straitjacket, punitive attempt to enforce wild extrapolation of sanctions simply for who-knows-what possible objective. Brews ohare (talk) 18:17, 9 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'll try to explain. When you added the Computational physics category, you put the article itself within the literal meaning of "physics, broadly construed". That is, you peacefully improved a math article (no problem), but you made it appear to be a physics article, from which you are banned, with your unnecessary addition of a category with the word physics in it (problem!). That is, you edited an article that was not even arguably within your topic ban, but by adding the category made the article appear to be a physics article, and hence an apparent violation of your topic ban after all. That is, this is a problem, and drama, of your own making. I am not saying you should be sanctioned for it. To the contrary, I have been arguing (like everyone else, for a change) that you should not be sanctioned for it. Adding the category was self-defeating.—Finell 20:47, 9 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Finell: I appreciate your support. However, I do not think you are on track with your "explanation". Placing a category label does not make the article a physics article, it makes it an article of interest to physics, with a bearing upon areas in which it can be applied. Clearly, computational physics has an interest in various methods of computation. That does not mean methods of computation are physics. Maybe that distinction is not one you'd make; it certainly is not one appreciated by some others. Brews ohare (talk) 03:10, 10 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Brews, I agree with what you say. Nevertheless, it was not clever of you to add that category, because that made it easy for someone to think that your editing of the article was a violation of your topic ban. And that is what happened. Again, you should not be sanctioned in my opinion. Still, there never would have been any question raised if you had not added the category. Further, you cannot entirely blame others who misunderstood, since that Computational physics category does include the work physics. I understand the distinction, most everyone who commented appreciates the distinction, and I disagree with Ncmvocalist, who is the only commenting editor who argues for literalism. Still, you could have avoided this incident entirely by not adding the a category that no prior editor thought to add. Live and learn.—Finell 06:02, 10 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Brews ohare, it doesn't matter whether it is an article, a talk page, a WikiProject banner, a category, a discussion, etc. The moment you begin editing in the topic you are banned from, you are violating your restrictions. This edit of yours violated that topic ban, regardless of whether the article itself is in the physics topic. In other words, while editing most of the article may be fine, what is definitely not acceptable is when you edit (that is, add, remove, otherwise modify content) relating to the physics topic - computational physics, if the name doesn't already suggest, is part of the physics topic as far as your topic ban is concerned. That some topics overlap with physics does not make it OK for you to edit the physics part of that topic, rightly or wrongly. If you continue to be problematic in understanding, accepting and fully complying with your restriction instead of making every possible attempt to avoid further incidents, then it is likely that ArbCom will take a harsher stance. Ncmvocalist (talk) 04:17, 10 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Ncmvocalist: Perhaps needless to say, I do not see how the action of adding a Category to a page constitutes a violation. I don't think it amounts to a modification of content, serving only to add the article title to a list elsewhere. No editing of "physics part of the topic" occurred. I am very, very far from exhibiting "problematic understanding" or failing "to make every possible attempt to avoid further incidents". I find this description of yours tactless, and worse, contrary to fact.

I believe your responsibility is to the welfare of WP, not to enforcement of rules regardless of the consequences. The remedies imposed upon me are intended to protect WP. Where the harmless action of adding a Category is interpreted by you as a violation (although it is not in some eyes), it behooves you to consider the matter as it affects WP, not simply as a matter of blind enforcement.

Your understanding of the purpose of these remedies, and also what constitutes their violation, is at variance with virtually everyone commenting in this space.

Finell has suggested my failing is in not being too clever: I should anticipate possible ambiguities in my actions. It is quite possible that I will do something in the future that you will disagree with, not out of malice or desire to annoy you, but simply because your view will take me completely by surprise, being unimaginable to me. I do not regard that as entirely my failing. I hope that you will adopt a more generous stance if this happens, and think carefully whether your actions benefit WP, or are in fact counterproductive. I assure you that my objective is to assist WP, not to cause difficulties. Brews ohare (talk) 07:20, 10 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Based on your response, I'm beginning to wonder whether Finell's assessment of your judgement (or clear lack therof) was correct. I haven't believed a sanction was necessary for this - I would have said so quite bluntly if I thought so. What I did believe was necessary was (a) alerting users to the fact that you alone are responsible for this incident escalating to either a remarkably poor sense of judgement or because you are continuing to toe the line of your sanctions, and (b) making you aware of it so that you take more care in what actions and edits you make on Wikipedia so that you do not continue to escalate such incidents. Had you not so foolishly added that category, much of this discussion would not exist. And contrary to what you think, I'm well-aware of what the remedy intended to do, and how far the scope extended, as I was one of the users who was improving the drafting on some of the proposals. A violation is a violation, and the need to avoid doing anything that could reasonably be construed as such will remain as far as you are concerned. If you do not believe that adding or removing physics-related categories is included in your ban, then I suggest you directly request clarification from ArbCom to that effect, as few admins in the community will agree with your current view, should you decide to take such foolish actions again in the future. Of course, that you may choose not to do so in order to continue to advance your tendentious arguments across the project would not be anything unusual. Ncmvocalist (talk) 08:02, 10 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Strongly oppose - I do not understand why expert help is so unwelcome here. /Pieter Kuiper (talk) 09:30, 9 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think expert help is unwelcome; I've never felt unwelcome, and I'm an expert in many of the areas I edit. But sometimes experts act like their expertise trumps policies like

WP:V, or they act like only their own POV is important, or things of that sort, and sometimes it's hard to talk them out of those situations. Dicklyon (talk) 05:01, 10 December 2009 (UTC)[reply

]

Dicklyon: Are you making a comment here pertinent to the present issues (I cannot see any relevance)? Brews ohare (talk) 07:25, 10 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose Virtually all applied mathematics, from addition straight through to vector analysis, is "broadly related to Physics." Exceedingly broad bans are, in my honest opinion, contrary to the reasonable goals of Wikipedia. Collect (talk) 11:46, 9 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment – The topic ban never made much sense, since Prof. Brews's behavior issues were not topic specific. Dicklyon (talk) 00:56, 10 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with this remark 100%. Brews ohare (talk) 07:28, 10 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Result concerning Brews ohare

No consensus to change the status quo. Jehochman ^Talk 14:34, 10 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

Request concerning Lapsed Pacifist

User requesting enforcement

2 lines of K₃₀₃ 14:59, 9 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

User against whom enforcement is requested

Lapsed Pacifist (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction or remedy that this user violated

Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Lapsed Pacifist 2#Lapsed Pacifist restricted and Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Lapsed Pacifist#Lapsed Pacifist banned from affected articles

Diffs

of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

1. [19] Undiscussed revert of this edit. There is an old discussion on the talk page here, so this may count as discussed but may not just as equally.
2. [20] Undiscussed revert, see detailed explanation below on why this edit is incredibly problematic even with the "sources".
3. [21] Violation of topic ban. LP had previously been instructed to consider his ban to include the wider Britain/Ireland conflict over independence here, and the Fenian Rising is unquestionably part of that conflict.
4. [22]Violation of topic ban at Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Lapsed Pacifist. William III is a hugely divisive figure in Irish history particularly that of Northern Ireland. Also the change of Northern Ireland to Ulster was identified as problematic before.

Diffs of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required by the remedy) : Not applicable

Enforcement action requested (

other sanction

)

Admin discretion, preferably lengthy if not indefinite block

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

More information on why the Al-Shifa pharmaceutical factory edit is very problematic.

I'll deal with the part of the sentence after the comma first, the claim that "and it has been estimated that tens or even hundreds of thousands died afterwards etc", allegedly sourced by Chomsky and Werner Daum. Chomsky cites two sources, Daum himself and Jonathan Belke (the book is on Google Books, but the preview has an unfortunate habit of saying the pages in question are not part of the preview on occasion, yet showing them on others. Same info is also available here. Belke says "tens of thousands of people", Daum says "several tens of thousands seems a reasonable guess". The "or even hundreds" part is a complete invention by LP, and it really isn't acceptable to increase the estimates by a factor of ten based on your own inventions is it? Also in the main body of the article there's a challenge to those figures, claiming they are "fabricated out of whole cloth" yet this is omitted from LP's addition to the lead as it contradicts his anti-American POV pushing.

More reprehensible is the first part of that sentence, which is not sourced by Chomsky at all. More importantly, it isn't even true. LP's addition claims that "Several hundred employees were killed in the attack", when the death toll (at least according to one source that's frequently cited) was one killed and eleven injured. I'm prepared to accept that adding a source to the sentence would technically negate the need for discussion per Falcon9x5's edit summary, ignoring that LP has wilfully chosen to exaggerate what the source says. However that only applies to the second part of the sentence, as he hasn't added a source for the first part of the sentence.

I would also draw the attention of anyone dealing with this report to this edit, which although not a breach of any sanctions in itself shows LP's editing to be wholly incompatible with the goals of Wikipedia. For anyone unfamiliar with the term "vassal" see vassal or vassal state, and see how inappropriate it is to describe the allies of the United States occupying Iraq post-2003. 2 lines of K₃₀₃ 14:59, 9 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

[23]

Discussion concerning Lapsed Pacifist

Statement by Lapsed Pacifist

Comments by others about the request concerning Lapsed Pacifist

Following two blocks last month for violation of remedies, admin SirFozzie suggested I bring this user up at ANI. This was done and shows some clear violations of remedies and poor behaviour, however it was autoarchived before anyone did anything with it. Particular problems shown were this diff which shows a clear violation of the first RfAR as the article contains details of two IRA bombings. This diff & this diff which shows intent to continue violating this ban as both these articles contain details of the conflict in NI. Part of LPs second RfAR encouraged them to comment on the content and not on the contributor. this edit summary shows breach of that. LP has also been engaged in a very long running edit war on the talk page of Joe Higgins. One of the edit summaries contains a nasty enough personal attack and they have continued to harangue the editor here and here. Also worrying is this redirect which classifys Israeli settlements as "colonies" (LP has a histroy of anti-israel editing). POV pushing has continued too. (LP is also anti-US). GainLine ♠ _♥ 17:37, 9 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

LP has been harassing me of late. He has taken to leaving comments on talk pages demanding that I answer to him and explain my edits to him. I added a category (non-controversial one) to

talk) 19:05, 10 December 2009 (UTC)[reply

]

Unfortunately Snappy isn't the only one, it seems Steve Zhang has too as has Falcon 9x5 here as well as other editors here and here GainLine ♠ _♥ 20:14, 10 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Just a quick point about my edit summary - I didn't mean for it to be antagonistic (in case it's viewed as such), I simply saw the addition of heavy

I said it before, and will say it again. Lapsed Pacifist is not going to work within the terms of his ArbCom ban, and more importantly, within the rules and guidelines that Wikipedia expects of its editors. I think a long term sanction is the correct action here. SirFozzie (talk) 19:54, 9 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I think a longer block, perhaps even a year, is justifiable. PhilKnight (talk) 07:24, 11 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

As the enforcement terms are a bit narrow, I suggest a 1 week block for the time-being. Alternatively, getting the community to impose the longer block separately or a restriction where the next block he receives will be increased to one year can also work. As Lapsed Pacifist was the only user in this case who was restricted, I am going to request ArbCom for an amendment so that the next block may be for a duration of up to one year, like in the recently closed Speed of light case...I hope nobody objects. Ncmvocalist (talk) 09:05, 11 December 2009 (UTC) 4 blocks in the first case, along with 2 blocks in the second case, and now violations in both cases means that a 1 year block is authorised by ArbCom's enforcement terms. Ncmvocalist (talk) 09:29, 11 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I saw the flicker on RFAR, and I was thinking of writing such a thread up, actually. I might do so.

^{The clock is ticking....} 11:09, 11 December 2009 (UTC)[reply

]

I have just placed another diff in evidence which is a clear violation of topic ban. Also it should be noted that they are continuing to harrass Snappy here:-

User_talk:Snappy#Please. This edit summary confirms they have read the RfE yet have failed to make a statement as was the case at the previous RfEs and minimal input into RfAR. All this coupled with past wholesale dismissal of WP policies shows a complete contempt for the project. Snappy appears to suspect a sock or meat puppet, perhaps this should be investigated further? Several other editors have suggested a one year block. After the latest transgressions, I would think this should be the very minimum if not indef. GainLine ♠ _♥ 13:52, 11 December 2009 (UTC)[reply

]

Comment - I don't know Lapsed Pacifist or anything about the background to his topic ban etc so I can't really comment of those issues. I do however come across his edits fairly frequently in watchlisted articles and I have to say that a complete block would be a pity. This guy makes an astounding number of edits to articles all over the place adding links, fixing small errrors and various other thankless tasks that improve Wikipedia. I wouldn't be at all surprised if on examination the number of good edits outnumbered the number of problematic edits by many orders of magnitude. Maybe it isn't relevant to this discussion but looking at his contributions he appears to be quite significantly improving Wikipedia in an almost bot-like way rather than making it worse. Sean.hoyland - talk 15:25, 11 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Result concerning Lapsed Pacifist

I have blocked Lapsed Pacifist (talk · contribs) for only 48 hours as the issues presented here are varied and minor.[24] After having looked at many hundreds of diffs, I am far from convinced that long blocks are required this time. In regards to the issue with Snappy, a quick look at the problem indicates that the edit-war should never have happened, and Snappy has been keeping it going.[25] Lapsed Pacifist is under a topic ban and restrictions, but that doesn't mean that he/her is wrong in every instance. Diffs like these[26][27][28][29] are evidence of attempting to discuss the content, and that is what the restrictions are intended to produce. The sourcing issue and the use of "vassals" are more concerning, however they fall into the remedy "Lapsed Pacifist admonished and reminded to be especially careful". John Vandenberg ^(chat) 15:37, 11 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.

Request concerning Termer

User requesting enforcement

Fifelfoo (talk) 04:03, 12 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

User against whom enforcement is requested

Termer (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction or remedy that this user violated

Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Digwuren#Discretionary sanctions

 : disruptive conduct on an Eastern European topic

Diffs

of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

1. [30] Termer cherry picks quotes, mischaracterising what the sources say
2. [31] Termer's mischaracterisation of sources caught by Fifelfoo
3. [32] Anderssl intervenes in discussion
4. [33] Termer mischaracterises article consensus
5. [34] Anderssl requests Termer slows down
6. [35] Termer misquotes Anderssl, mischaracterises Anderssl, causing disruption
7. Prior conduct in relation to mischaracterisation of sources is also recent, and mentionted at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Disruptive Conduct at Mass killings under Communist regimes
8. Misrepresentative conduct has continued at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Disruptive Conduct at Mass killings under Communist regimes
9. [36] And continues to disrupt by misrepresentation and mischaracterisation. I had reverted the removals Termer requests me to restore over 24 hours ago, in order to proceed with an RFC.

Diffs of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required by the remedy)

Requests for discretionary action by administrators at WP:ANI failed for lack of administrator interest. The requested sanctions there were initial warning and counselling regarding conduct under this remedy.

Enforcement action requested (

other sanction

)

I would most prefer formal warning and counselling at this stage. However, Termer's inability to recognise their own conduct at WP:ANI is worrying.

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

Mass killings under Communist regimes is a difficult article. As explained at WP:ANI, it is highly reliant on the honest discussion of sources. Termer's claims that sources say one thing, when they do not, is disrupting the development of the encyclopedia. Termer's claims that other editors have said one thing, when they have not, is disrupting the development of the encyclopedia. I will be notifying the WP:ANI, Termer, Anderssl, and the article, of course. Fifelfoo (talk) 04:03, 12 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

In relation to Martintg, AmateurEditor admitted they had a limited access to the text, and I quoted at length in response, directly from the source.

In relation to Digwuren's scope, do you understand the words Broadly interpreted?

I was not aware that stating an opinion in relation to an AFD was "trying to get an article deleted." If its worth noting opinions, Vercrumba voted to keep it, and Martintg lobbied very strongly in favour of it by densely discussing his opinion with editors voting to decline. However, I don't think this really indicates anything about Termer's conduct at all.

In relation to Vecrumba, if you have been watching my edits closely since we had last talked with each other, I suppose you have an intense dislike for citation style, or feel that it is otherwise non-constructive behaviour. Fifelfoo (talk) 12:00, 12 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Diff of Termer being notified

[37]

Discussion concerning Termer

Statement by Termer

I probably have made many mistakes on Wikipedia but at the moment I'm compleatly lost what exactly am I accuesed of. So I'm not even sure should I respond to this. In case yes, unfortunately I don't have much more to add to this than what I've already said at ANI.[38], [39], [40], [41]. And perhaps I should spell this out once more: In case anything in those diffs that Fifelfoo has provided is considered disruptive indeed by any uninvolved administrator, he/she is most welcome to take action against my editing privileges as deemed necessary. Thanks!--Termer (talk) 06:47, 12 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

RE:Anderssl, I'm most puzzled with your accusations. you now think that the article is a "POV bait" despite you have never mentioned it before, despite the fact that article has been supported [42], [43] at AfD-s with well spelled out arguments by some of the most respected members of wikpedia community like for example DGG!

And now Anderssl you end up accusing me of "POV pushing", while I've clearly spelled out several times at the talk page that all possible viewpoints that have been published on the subject should be part of the article. In case you think it's disruptive me arguing against the removals of sourced material from the article by the editors who have wanted to delete everything all together in the first place than... Sorry if I disappoint you but I intend argue against such not discussed massive blankings [44], [45], [46], [47], [48] also in the future. And again, in case my behavior is considered disruptive indeed, I'm open to have my editing privileges cut back since I intend to disrupt anybody who thinks the best way to go about it is simply ediwarring over the articles at the same time ignoring what has been said in the discussion. Thanks!--Termer (talk) 03:12, 15 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

RE:

Martin I'm not sure on what exactly you base your assumption that I've been under discussion here by Fifelfoo. There is nothing in it suggesting that I've been under the discussion as far as I can tell.--Termer (talk) 03:30, 15 December 2009 (UTC)[reply

]

RE: Collect thanks for a fair and clear statement!--Termer (talk) 03:34, 15 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by others about the request concerning Termer

Comment by Vecrumba

I am not sure what campaign Fifelfoo is on. I first became aware of him when he posted his magnum opus pushing his agenda at FA article Hungarian Revolution of 1956, for example, see his mind-numbing POV-laden litany on "problems" with sources. There is little I have seen that is constructive in Fifelfoo's edits since, and I regret he has decided to pursue this attempt to control content by attacking editors.
P.S. When editors contend that what reputable sources state is "deceptive" per Fifelfoo's own diffs, that raises red flags that those sources are about to be completely misrepresented.  PЄTЄRS VЄСRUМВА ►talk  05:17, 12 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I would appreciate Four Deuces (below) refraining from EEML ad hominem attacks.  PЄTЄRS VЄСRUМВА ►talk  07:31, 12 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Let me add that I was involved at the article before Fifelfoo's arrival; upon said arrival my advice was solicited by someone completely not involved with any of the EEML proceedings; most recently I was asked about Fifelfoo's activities by someone not on the EEML list, and so I took a recent look and found out Fifelfoo has been busy. I am weary of conspiracy being touted as the likeliest reason I show up somewhere. Let's stick to the conduct of the parties, no? PЄTЄRS VЄСRUМВА ►talk  15:25, 12 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Again, Fifelfoo contends per one of their own diffs that what a source means is not what a reader would take it to obviously mean. We are not here to interpret sources, we are here to relate what they say in a fair and accurate manner. If a source is so unclear as to require interpretation or to be readily open to interpretation, then perhaps it is not suitable for our use on WP. I would ask Four Deuces to cease and desist playing the EEML card and address the diffs Fifelfoo has presented. What I think of or say regarding WP to people off-Wiki has nothing to do with anything here.  PЄTЄRS VЄСRUМВА ►talk  03:27, 14 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

P.S. To Four Deuces, as I recall, everyone was arguing over the original article and all I stated (repeatedly) was that an article titled "Communist genocide" should have as its content whatever it is that reputable sources write regarding "communist genocide", no more no less. As I recall you were one of the ones arguing article content or attempting to quash the whole topic based on WP:OR endless debating. You wish to make accusations against me, let's have at it, just not here.  PЄTЄRS VЄСRUМВА ►talk  03:34, 14 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

To Anderssl, regarding his full question (not misquoted) "should offer some explanation as to why Fifelfoo is taking these steps only against Termer, and not against all the other editors who disagree with Fifelfoo", Termer is merely the latest to disagree and apparently has stuck in Fifelfoo's raw as Fifelfoo failed to get satisfaction at the AN/I and responded by escalating the conflict—speaking to the issue of "conduct." I regret that, again, what I mostly see is an attempt to control content through a request for administrative intervention.  PЄTЄRS VЄСRUМВА ►talk  03:56, 14 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Again, to Four Deuces, this is not about EEML here. My editorial POV is well-supported by contemporary post-Cold War sources (Hiden et al.), I only relate reputable sources fairly and accurately. Because reputable sources are less than complimentary regarding the Soviet legacy in Eastern Europe does not make it "POV" or me a POV pusher. Deal with sources, not with meaningless accusations (re: Fifelfoo's request here) about my opinions or attempt to stick me in some box of your crafting. Of course you are playing the EEML card, you brought it up in the first place.  PЄTЄRS VЄСRUМВА ►talk  05:38, 14 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

To Four Deuces, "critical point", so what? There were > 100 books that contain the term "communist genocide" yet people were contending to delete the article for the lack of sources, lack of definition, blah blah blah. Second, you have an accusation, make it at the EEML proceedings. Third, you categorically have NO PERMISSION TO POST ANY OF MY ALLEGED PERSONAL CORRESPONDENCE. I request the Email posted be permanently deleted. I am tired of having my privacy violated and individuals who wish to attack me attempting to crawl inside my head and the heads of others to make accusations.  PЄTЄRS VЄСRUМВА ►talk  15:04, 14 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Re: the observation "Well, this article is POV bait. Someone use AfD or RfC to get some more eyes on it so we can decide if the article is sustainable." That will not work, as the arguments over the article are all based on those who wish to quash it or morph it into something it is not versus their opposition. As I indicated, the original article was "Communist genocide." It should have simply represented what reputable sources say about "communist genocide", and then the introduction regarding what "communist genocide" is simply summarizes the article. But no, those up in arms over communists commiting genocide had to take the discussion elsewhere, demanding definitions, synthesizing definitions, etc. What a gawdawful mess that was.  PЄTЄRS VЄСRUМВА ►talk  00:37, 15 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by The Four Deuces

I concur with Fifelfoo. I note that Vercrumba is mentioned in the Eastern European Mailing List (EEML) arbitration and note that this specific article was mentioned in the arbitration. Numerous EEML emails concerning the editing of this article have been posted on

Vecrumba, I believe that it is relevant that a group of people (10+) with a similar POV appear to have been canvassed off-wiki to edit this article. My point is that when you and other members of the list comment here or at the article that it does not represent the normal way that consensus should be achieved. I note that Termer also appears to have been discussed in the EEML as someone who had a similar point of view and therefore should be supported in Wikipedia discussions/editing. While I believe this is relevant, if an administrator disagrees with me then I will stand corrected. The Four Deuces (talk) 08:31, 12 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Martintg was also a member of the EEML and I am willing to produce the EEML correspondence concerning Termer if required. As a recipient of the e-mails, Martintg should be familiar with their contents. The Four Deuces (talk) 11:52, 12 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Vecrumba, it is more than coincidental that beside you and Martintg, Biruitoral, Radeksz, Poeticbent, Biophys, Sander Saeda, and Jacurek also edited the article, while Hillock65 voted in an AfD and Piotrus commented on the talk page. (That is 10 members of the EEML.) There are numerous purported EEML e-mails about this article which discussed how to defend it against charges of

synthesis, changing the name and speculation about the existence of a cabal dedicated to deleting the article and even discussion about infiltrating them. If you do not remember the e-mails I can provide copies for you. The Four Deuces (talk) 18:37, 12 December 2009 (UTC)[reply

]

Vecrumba, no one is "playing the EEML card". I am merely stating that you and others attempted to create articles and control content in order to present a Cold War point of view that is contrary to the Wikipedia policy of

neutral point of view. Anyone can see this by looking at the edits made by you and your colleagues. My opinion is that by relying on distortion and falsehoods in articles about Communism that you are actually promoting Communism by implying that the only argument against them is dishonesty. The Four Deuces (talk) 03:51, 14 December 2009 (UTC)[reply

]

Dr. Dan, could you please elaborate on your comments. I notice that you have made numerous comments on the EEML case and edit many of the same articles, so your comments may be helpful. The Four Deuces (talk) 05:16, 14 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Vecrumba (and Martintg), do you not remember all the EEML e-mails about the article including this one:

Martin, I am not insinuating anything about Termer, merely replying to the various statements that you and Vecrumba have made. The Four Deuces (talk) 10:53, 14 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Vecrumba, no one is "up in arms over communists commiting genocide". The dispute is whether the concept of communist mass killings exists in reliable sources and that the article accurately reflect those sources. The point of this request is that Termer's editing stops other editors from shaping the article to reflect the sources accurately. The Four Deuces (talk) 19:46, 15 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Anderssl

Not much to add here, except I support Fifelfoo's request fully. The details are given clearly above. Termer's behaviour seems to be the Wikipedia equivalent of a filibuster: constantly creating confusion and expanding debate to the effect of making progress impossible (it is irrelevant whether this is intentional or not). If there is any case where counselling would be called for, this is it! --Anderssl (talk) 07:58, 12 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Anyone claiming that this is merely a content dispute should offer some explanation as to why Fifelfoo is taking these steps only against Termer, and not against all the other editors who disagree with Fifelfoo. This is not a question of Termer's opinions, but his conduct.--Anderssl (talk) 18:14, 12 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'd be willing, though, to admit that Termer is not the only one engaging in this kind of conduct - see Martintg's comment below, where he misquotes both me and Fifelfoo in the same sentence. Well done! --Anderssl (talk) 08:15, 13 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Tznkai, we know this article is POV bait. It's been through three AfDs and countless RfCs in just a few months, with little improvements. Termer has been among the strongest supporters of the "POV bait" article, and his conduct fits nearly every symptom of disruptive editing. Please have a second look at this case, before all constructive-minded editors give up and leave this article to the POV pushers! --Anderssl (talk) 01:02, 15 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by Martintg

I wasn't going to comment here, until The Four Deuces attempted to spin some kind of association between Termer and the EEML (which is total BS of course) but illustrates a new Godwin's law style adage: "As an wikipedia discussion grows longer, the probability of claiming an association with the EEML approaches". A couple of points:

1. This is a content dispute which really should go to mediation. Fifelfoo is proceeding on the basis that his interpretation is the only correct one, therefore Termer must be "misrepresenting" the sources. Note however that other editors, for example here dispute Fifelfoo's own representation of the sources.
2. Fifelfoo lodged an unsuccessful ANI report against Termer here, with a neutral admin Ricky81682 taking no action against Termer, but instead said of Fifelfoo's arguments: "Most of these arguments are essentially repeats of the AFD discussion. As such, they are irrelevant to the article itself. People can dispute the AFD debate at DRV or somewhere else in my opinion", which is essentially true since Fifefoo had attempted to have the article deleted in three AfDs in as many months. Note that Fifelfoo was also reported for edit warring the article, removing huge sections of sourced text.
3. I'm not sure that
   Mass killings under Communist regimes
   also covers Cambodia and China, and the content dispute seems to have evolved to whether the author Valentino treats Communist mass killings as a minor sub-category of his main types or not, rather than anything being specifically related to the topic of Eastern Europe per se.

If Fifelfoo is really sincere in resolving this, then I suggest formal mediation, rather than engaging in

Anderssl asks "Why is Fifelfoo taking these steps?" Evidently Fifelfoo, who regards himself as an expert "humanities specialist", has an issue with "non-humanities twonk....cookie-cutter anti-communists with no more than a high school grade humanities education" (which in my view crosses the boundary into gross incivility and massive assumption of bad faith), all because some people disagree with Fifelfoo's opinion. Mediation is the route to solving disagreements, not seeking sanctions.

The Four Deuces has made many outlandish claims, including "this article was largely written and defended by members of the EEML", one only needs to look at who has contributed to the article to see that this claim is also BS. Evidently he wants to litigate on the basis of the EEML, in which case he can post his "evidence" to the Arbitration case evidence page, this is not the venue for such litigation.

• This AE report is about Termer, I'm not sure what The Four Deuces is attempting to achieve by posting a four month old email that has no relevance to Termer, (or in fact any relevance to this article, since it has had a rename and two AfD's since), other than continue his attempt to insinuate that Termer is some how associated with the EEML? --
  talk) 09:05, 14 December 2009 (UTC)[reply
  ]

• To Termer and Fifelfoo, was there some other editor that Fifelfoo was referring to when he said" "unless WP:ANI actually grows cahones, or a particular editor continues baldly in the past conduct and makes me to to Arbitration's sanction request page"? In any case I have refactored my statement. --
  talk) 04:42, 15 December 2009 (UTC)[reply
  ]

The EEML case has nothing, zero, zilch, to do with this case, or any parties concerning it. Dr. Dan (talk) 04:46, 14 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Result concerning Termer

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

Well, this article is POV bait. Someone use AfD or RfC to get some more eyes on it so we can decide if the article is sustainable. Also, not sufficiently within the intended range of discretionary sanctions for me to go any further than the strong recommendation that everyone take a deep breath and think very carefully about whether this article is a good idea.

Also, I may start censuring people for throwing around EEML like Colonial Americans used to use the word "witch"--Tznkai (talk) 06:51, 14 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I am still unconvinced that discretionary sanctions are the best way to take care of this, but I am considering various options.--Tznkai (talk) 03:39, 15 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Arbitration enforcement is ill suited to the underlying dispute, and I am not comfortable waving my magic wand and summarily creating a solution here. I've opened up a request at

WP:AN to get you all help. Please make any further commentary here--Tznkai (talk) 19:36, 15 December 2009 (UTC)[reply

]

User requesting enforcement

Plot Spoiler (talk) 01:58, 15 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

User against whom enforcement is requested

Nableezy (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction or remedy that this user violated

Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Palestine-Israel_articles#Discretionary_sanctions

Diffs

of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

#

1. Quds Day [54] Nableezy is banned from editing such articles, regardless of the reason.
2. PLO [55] Nableezy is banned from editing such articles, regardless of the reason.

Diffs of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required by the remedy)

#

1. [56] Nableezy recently had his ban clarified.

Enforcement action requested (

other sanction

)

Extended block

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

Regardless of how egregious the edit was, Nableezy is still banned from the topic and could have informed another editor. Furthermore, his argument on the PLO article does not apply to his revert on the Quds Day article. Nableezy is not the only editor present that is able to revert others.Plot Spoiler (talk) 03:15, 15 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

The requesting user is asked to notify the user against whom this request is directed of it, and then to replace this text with a

diff

of that notification. The request will normally not be processed otherwise.

Discussion concerning Nableezy

Statement by Nableezy

Im so sorry, I suppose I should have left an "encyclopedia" article saying that the PLO was founded on Mars to liberate Palestine by wearing festive hats. An "extended block" for reverting vandalism would be so very fitting. nableezy - 02:53, 15 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The edit combined with the edit summary on the Quds Day edit I reverted constituted vandalism in my opinion. Every editor has an obligation to remove vandalism. But like I said, it would be fitting to be blocked for removing vandalism. It would almost be as funny as initiating this request. Almost. nableezy - 03:33, 15 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

@Tznaki, I wont, but perhaps User:Plot Spoiler, previously named ShamWow, could use formal notification of the ARBPIA case. nableezy - 03:47, 15 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Cptnono, the only ridiculous thing here is that somebody actually requested a block for removing vandalism. Piss off. nableezy - 14:25, 15 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Stellarkid, no you cannot say the same things about Muslims or Arabs. That user should not have said that, and combining the edit summary with the edit I felt, and still feel, that it was vandalism. The very diff you cite has already been addressed by Tznaki, there is no "flouting the sanctions with impunity" and to say that I have been doing so is plainly bogus. Can somebody archive this already? nableezy - 19:08, 15 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by others about the request concerning Nableezy

This comes after Tznkai's call. nableezy has without a doubt circumvented sanctions a minimum of 5 times. A couple were files. One was an AfD a day before being unblocked. One of them was blatant vandalism. Another had a pretty crappy edit summary but was not necessarily a bad edit. Others (4 maybe?) were only "broadly" interpreted as being related. A couple were simply edit wars on talk pages that were only related to the topic. This does not excuse it. Harmless enough at first glance but they are still violations and a couple of them caused serious discussion. They even caused edit warring, requests for clarification, and requests for enforcement. A sanction is a sanction. He was not sanctioned to "not edit Arab-Israel when it might hurt feelings" He was sanctioned not to edit them at all. To punctuate this ridiculousness, Tznkai disregarded edit warring a few days ago (literally a few days!). How can you work on this project that has a disclaimer on potential long term blocks and not be concerned about edit warring? Edit warring is edit warring. As I called out Nableezy to get my sanction I will call out Tznkai: How can you clerk here and not see a concern? Wikiphilosiphy aside, there is an obvious problem and you bring your position into question. I feel that you have proven that you do not deserve/can handle/want the responsibility. If you aren't going to block (which is honestly OK by me) at least clearly say KNOCK IT OFF. You haven't done that twice now.Cptnono (talk) 11:05, 15 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Further Comment by others after Tznkai's decision

I did not earlier see the comment "No one believes in your Jewish B.S" but I will just say that that type of bigotry has no place on WP, and points to serious problems collaborating with fellow Wikipedians in this area. Can I also expect to get a pass for saying the same except inserting "Muslim" or "Palestinian" or "Arab"???

Not all Nor were the edits were all reversions of vandalism --[57] It seems clear that Nableezy is flouting the sanctions with impunity.

Oops. I see I misunderstood Tznkai's comment. I thought he was saying that Nableezy had made such a comment. I apologize to Nableezy for the misunderstanding and inferring here that he had made it. I will edit my comment. My point about him flouting his sanctions still stands.

talk) 04:03, 16 December 2009 (UTC)[reply

]

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

Declined. Blocking here would simply be too silly for words, but Nableezy would be well suited to take the article off his watchlist.--Tznkai (talk) 03:34, 15 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Let me expand a little more. Silly vandalism and editors who say things like "No one believes in your Jewish B.S" are more unwelcome than any editor still around. I hope however, Nableezy does not take this as an invitation to look for other cases where he will get a pass. --Tznkai (talk) 03:38, 15 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Hokay then, I'll make it more explicit: Nableezy, knock it off and leave the topic area.

Now then, I can only work with the data I've been given, and if the only non-moot diffs are the two quoted above, I am going to continue to decline enforcement.--Tznkai (talk) 19:08, 15 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.

Request concerning Tenmei

User requesting enforcement

- Penwhale | ^{dance in the air and follow his steps} 04:56, 15 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

User against whom enforcement is requested

talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log

)

Sanction or remedy that this user violated

Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Tang Dynasty#Tenmei mentored

Diffs

of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

1. [58]
2. [59]
3. [60] and others at Wikipedia:Mentorship. He does not currently have a mentor and as such is not allowed to contribute except to seek out mentors. This means that he's banned from non-user talk pages until he has an approved mentor.

Diffs of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required by the remedy)

Not applicable.

Enforcement action requested (

other sanction

)

Block according to the enforcement

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

Would enforce myself, except I recused during both the original case and the amendment request.

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

[61]

Discussion concerning Tenmei

Statement by Tenmei

Who's kidding who?

What wholesome or constructive rationale informs this new development? The continuing monogatari of needless folly just gets worse and worse -- and to what end?

It becomes reasonable to ask a meaningful and timely question: How does any part of this complaint enhance prospects for Wikipedia's future or for the community of volunteer contributors?

The answer needs to be stated bluntly: This helps no one. It confuses and discourages me.

In this investigative process, four crucial elements establish a context:

FACT #1: A prirori, ArbCom refused to answer explicit questions about what was and what was not encompassed with the ambit of ArbCom's decision-making in June and thereafter.

Fact #2: A posteriori, ArbCom then ratcheted up penalties because something not clearly identified was deemed to have failed to comply with what I couldn't have known was problematic before November, during November or thereafter.

Fact #3: Although ArbCom may have intended who-knows-what, the only words available to me in December were these:

"Tenmei is banned from all editing except for the express purpose of locating a mentor"

And, if I'm understanding the complaint adequately, the one and only article I'm accused of wrongly editing was Wikipedia:Mentorship?

Fact #4: The narrowly-focused text which I researched and then added to Wikipedia:Mentorship does advance the "express purpose of locating a mentor"; but I don't understand why that isn't so obvious that it does not require further explanation. This reasonable assertion and belief is confirmed by Tenmei's contribution history which lists postings on pages of those who participated in the development of the article and its accompanying talk page:

• Contributors at Wikipedia:Mentorship
  

• 1 21:10, 14 December 2009 Andrevan ‎ (→Mentorship: new section)
• 2 21:12, 14 December 2009 Szyslak ‎ (→Mentorship: new section)
• 3 21:14, 14 December 2009 Redwolf24 ‎ (→Mentorship: new section)
• 4 21:18, 14 December 2009 BlankVerse ‎ (→mentorship: new section)
• 5 21:22, 14 December 2009 Gareth Aus ‎ (→Mentorship: new section)
• 6 21:24, 14 December 2009 Leon2323 (→Mentorship: new section)
• 7 21:29, 14 December 2009 MartinHarper ‎ (Mentorship -- new section)
• 8 21:31, 14 December 2009 Роман Беккер ‎ (→Mentorship: new section)
• 9 21:34, 14 December 2009 Kingboyk ‎ (→Mentorship: new section)
• 10 21:38, 14 December 2009 Giggy (→Mentorship: new section)
• 11 21:49, 14 December 2009 ColdFusion650 (→Mentorship: new section)
• 12 21:50, 14 December 2009 NonvocalScream (Mentorship -- new section)
• 13 21:54, 14 December 2009 (MaxSem ‎ (→Mentorship: new section)
• 14 21:57, 14 December 2009 Ashanda ‎ (→Mentorship: new section)
• 15 22:00, 14 December 2009 MBisanz ‎ (→Mentorship: new section)
• 16 22:02, 14 December 2009 Stmrlbs ‎ (→Mentorship: new section)
• 17 22:03, 14 December 2009 Coppertwig ‎ (→Mentorship: new section)
• 18 22:05, 14 December 2009 Kotra ‎ (→Mentorship: new section)
• 19 22:07, 14 December 2009 WhatamIdoing ‎ (→Mentorship: new section)
• 20 22:13, 14 December 2009
  AGK
  ‎ (→Mentorship: new section)

• Contributors at Wikipedia talk:Mentorship
  

• 21 02:39, 15 December 2009 Pleasantville ‎ (→Mentorship: new section)
• 22 02:49, 15 December 2009 Friday ‎ (→Mentorship: new section)
• 23 02:55, 15 December 2009 PalestineRemembered ‎ (→Mentorship: new section)
• 24 03:03, 15 December 2009 FT2 ‎ (→Mentorship: new section)
• 25 03:09, 15 December 2009 Jehochman ‎ (→Mentorship: new section)
• 26 03:25, 15 December 2009 Fasten ‎ (→Mentorship: new section)

In addition, further edits of this practical text are likely to contrive both (a) a shared-opportunity to work constructively with prospective mentors, thus creating a plausibly meaningful and persuasive working relationship which grows in an unforced way; and (b) a rhetorical foundation from which an unofficial mentorship committee may evolve naturally in a step-by-step fashion. This prospect encompasses those who are tentatively willing to try to help me, but who remain unwilling to enter into a formal ArbCom-endorsed relationship with its unknowable range of unanticipated pitfalls.

My limited, but unhappy experience with ArbCom's imprecise language is underscored by Penwhale's untimely and unmerited complaint.

In the context Penwhale contrives, any reluctance to help me officially seems both justified and prudent. What else is anyone to make of this newly contrived tempest in a teapot?

Anyone would be justifiably reluctant to thrust himself or herself into this problem-prone rhetorical maw or quagmire. The fact that I did so only serves to illustrate my ignorance, my innocence, my naivité and my sincere search for answers to questions which could be addressed in no other way -- none of which cause me to feel embarrassed.

Based solely on this newest "event", who can doubt that ArbCom was unable to recruit anyone to serve as a mentor at this stage of Wikipedia's development? But in passing the buck to me, did ArbCom truly want to contrive impossiblilty of performance as well?

In my view, this six-month history of ArbCom failure should be construed to argue in favor of giving me a realistic chance to try to comply with ArbCom's flawed decision. Instead, Penwhale's heedless complaint serves only to make my recruiting task more difficult.

Again, it is incumbent on me to ask, "Who's kidding who?"

While I presume no impropriety in Penwhale's complaint, it becomes impossible not to contemplate a range searching questions which need to be addressed in an effort to bring a better sense of balance to ArbCom's flawed presumptions, flawed procedures and flawed process.

In other words, I create a timely opportunity by asking this question: Given the inescapable fact that this newest sham is afflicting my patience and my efforts and also the view-point of any prospective ArbCom-endorsed "mentor", I have no choice but to assume that ArbCom's flaws devolve into an even more bizarre spectacle for those who are less confident, less innocent, less careful or less attentive to detail.

On my behalf and theirs, I must ask now: Why is this happening?

I would hope that the following will help enhance ArbCom to comprehend broad extent to which the phrase "Who's kidding who?" conveys a meaning that is idiomatic and clear at the same time.

Broadly, what purpose does this "enforcement" inquiry serve?

Narrowly, what purpose does an "enforcement" investigation serve?

Explicitly: (a) How is this congruent with the adduced principles and findings of the ArbCom case? (b) What am I to make of this? (c) What is any prospective mentor to make of this?

What other questions does this implicate?

What do I still fail to understand about what is going on here? And why isn't ArbCom doing more to help me understand? --

For information, I have just blocked Tenmei for one week for breaching his editing restrictions, disabled his talk page, and asked him to contact the committee by email (he has our address). My apologies for sidestepping this noticebaord's processes on this particular occasion.  Roger Davies ^talk 12:00, 15 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Result concerning Tenmei

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

• Moot, in light of the above. henrik•talk 12:09, 15 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

User requesting enforcement

JohnBlackburne (talk) 17:30, 26 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

User against whom enforcement is requested

Brews ohare (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction or remedy that this user violated

1. Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Speed of light#Brews ohare topic banned

2. Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Speed of light#Log of blocks, bans, and restrictions

Diffs

of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

1. [72] Edit of a physics related page

2. [73] Edit of a physics related page

I could provide any number of these: all of his edits in the last week are on physics related pages or relate to those pages.

Diffs of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required by the remedy)

Not applicable

Enforcement action requested (

other sanction

)

A further restriction to his own user pages

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

The problem with his edits (apart from them going against his ban) is his level of expertise is not enough for the article he's editing. He seem to be trying to compensate for this by relying heavily on sources, assembling the article paragraph by paragraph rather than writing it as a whole. The result is a mess that any editor will have to largely re-write from scratch. He doesn't seem able to take my hints on the talk page that he should not be writing the article this way. --JohnBlackburne (talk) 17:30, 26 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

[74]

Discussion concerning Brews ohare

Statement by Brews ohare

The article Bivector is a mathematics article that I created in response to discussion among other parties on Talk: p-vector. No physics discussion takes place in Bivector, although many possible applications of this topic to physics do exist, and I invited JohnBlackburne to discuss them in the article. (He has not.) No sanction against me has been violated, and this article constitutes a worthy addition to WP, indicating my good faith efforts to improve WP.

The present situation resembles in some ways the earlier restriction review, which also revolved about a distinction between math and science. That review is about to be updated, and presumably can include JohnBlackburne's complaint. Brews ohare (talk) 19:18, 26 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

In my opinion, the article Bivector as it now stands is fairly complete, apart from example applications that I cannot add due to sanctions, and I have no more mathematics to add to it. So I'd guess there is little need for administrative intervention in this matter. Brews ohare (talk) 18:56, 26 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

JohnBlackburne wishes to raise the issue of my competence to write this article. My competence is a matter separate from violation of sanctions, which should be separately conducted. Although this charge is not relevant here, I wish to point out that no evidence is provided that the present article Bivector in any way presents incorrect arguments. The many sources I have provided to support various points seem necessary in view of the challenges brought by JohnBlackburne, which challenges of his he has universally abandoned on Talk: Bivector upon his further reflection. Brews ohare (talk) 17:51, 26 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Dicklyon says: "He edits fast and furious, adding his own interpretations of things, and won't slow down enough to allow space to incorporate the views of others. He makes collaboration impossible, ignoring the input of people". I find these remarks at variance with the evidence on Talk: Bivector, which shows I have fully addressed JohnBlackburne's observations and provided civil, sourced, and extensive response to him, including some direct questions to him about his views. My editing has not in any way impeded collaboration: rather, attempts at collaboration have been impeded by JohnBlackburne's failure to address my responses to and direct questions about his views and, instead of engaging in shaping the article, filing this complaint. Brews ohare (talk) 03:52, 27 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

JohnBlackburne and MathSci have raised once more the issue of my competence and suggested that I "make up" material and irrelevantly scatter sources about in my ramblings - a little essay concocted off the top of his head. Really! The basis for these extravagant charges is that to write an article on bivectors in R³ is unencyclopedic and unhelpful; in other words, whatever its accuracy and documentation, the article is insufficiently general for these gentlemen, who prefer the usual completely unsourced gobbledygook of many math articles, such as Rotor (mathematics) & Blade (geometry). Naturally, my inclusion of sources irks them. I do not believe such charges have any bearing on this particular hearing. I would be very happy to defend my competence on the math project page or in an RfC directed at my contributions to the content of Bivector. However, in the context of the present hearing, these allegations are (i) slander (ii) unsupported (iii) invalid & (iv) totally irrelevant to this hearing which is about allegations of violation of my sanctions. Brews ohare (talk) 23:36, 29 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by others about the request concerning Brews ohare

• Strong OPPOSE Ok folks, seriously again? When is this nitpicking ever going to stop. Literally will you try to ban Brews for writing in english? Physics is described by english, to the administrator editor responsible for this renewed farce Shame on you.
  talk) 19:18, 26 December 2009 (UTC)[reply
  ]
  • Question Administrator? Who?
    talk) 21:10, 26 December 2009 (UTC)[reply
    ]
• No basis for action I'm more familiar than I would like with Brews Ohare's history and sanctions, but I don't believe them to apply here. These are mathematical topics, not physics ones. The fact that Wikiproject Physics has tagged them as theirs does not alter that, nor does the fact that the areas of maths he is working on may have physics applications.

  I have not made more than a cursory glance through Brews' recent activity but what I saw did not seem overly disruptive to me: a dispute is not necessarily someone causing a nuisance. However, even if it was there are other avenues that would be better pursued than this. His contribution record does not reveal him to have recently breached his topic ban. If further action needs taking against him then people should go through the proper channels rather than attempting to short-circuit the process by applying his sanction in an inappropriate manner.

  talk) 21:24, 26 December 2009 (UTC)[reply
  ]

• It would be very helpful – for Brews and for the entire community – if you wouldn't go off half-cocked, Hell in a Bucket. Anyone can post a request for enforcement, but that doesn't mean that they'll get it. That's why we're having a discussion. I think that Brews' editing on this topic is fine, however I would strongly encourage Bucket to find something else to do. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 22:01, 26 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Funny thing about the methodology if you can't counter the arguement you find a way to silence the opposition. Sometimes the easiest way to do that is discredit them. How's that going?

talk) 02:07, 27 December 2009 (UTC)[reply

]

• Formally, Dr. Brews's edit where he added a mention of general relativity can seen as a violation of his topic ban. As always, however, I think the topic ban doesn't make much sense, and completely missed the point of how he is disruptive. The interaction with JohnBlackburne on bivector is just more of the same. He edits fast and furious, adding his own interpretations of things, and won't slow down enough to allow space to incorporate the views of others. He makes collaboration impossible, ignoring the input of people who understand the topic at least as well as he does (probably better in this case). Instead of trying to "enforce" the silly topic ban, we should be looking for some other way to coach him toward more reasonable behavior. Dicklyon (talk) 22:37, 26 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Whether these are physics-related is debatable. These are mathematics articles first and foremost, and they happen to have uses in physics. So no (sane) reading of the topic ban would make this within the scope of the topic ban IMO. However, Brews was also on general probation, which DO include having the same behaviour that lead to the Arbcom/SoL case, and this behaviour is (again) present. (This edit however IS a violation of the topic ban, albeit a very minor one).
  WP Physics} 23:58, 26 December 2009 (UTC)[reply
  ]

That being said, going to ARBCOM enformcement rather than

WP Physics} 00:07, 27 December 2009 (UTC)[reply

]

• Oppose: This is a pure math article. The charge is "Edit of a physics related page"; this isn't one, and a Project Physics template doesn't make one. Brews created the article from scratch (the page was a redirect when he found it), and he created another of his beautiful graphics to illustrate it. More importantly, Brews' behavior, both in editing the article and in discussion on
  dropped the stick about a month ago, and since then has been peacefully and productively creating and editing articles. Because of that, the rest of us should stop picking up the stick and beating him with it.—Finell 00:05, 27 December 2009 (UTC)[reply
  ]
• Oppose. I agree with what Finell wrote above. I also note that during the Arbcom case, both my and Dicklyon's proposals to deal with Brews' editing style were rejected. Arbcom decided to tackle the problem via a topic ban. There have been no substantial (or otherwise problematic) violations of that topic ban, so this arbitration enforcement request is not warranted. Count Iblis (talk) 00:46, 27 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• This is not a vote. Make your comments, preferably helpful ones, but leave the bold text at home.--Tznkai (talk) 06:12, 28 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment The edits by Brews to
  p-vector. If Brews' other edits to mathematics articles are like these, he should be topic banned from mathematics articles. His editing here is just disruptive. Mathsci (talk) 20:52, 28 December 2009 (UTC)[reply
  ]

  Comment You can't be disruptive at Wikipedia simply for not being an expert and making mistakes while editing a page. Everyone can edit Wikipedia. Given that Mathsci is an experienced Wiki-editor who should know this, I don't understand why he is complaining about Brews here instead of fixing the bivector page. Count Iblis (talk) 22:01, 28 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with Iblis. Indeed, why is anyone even mentioning whether the math is right or wrong here? This is the

Arbitration Enforcement page.—Finell 02:16, 29 December 2009 (UTC)[reply

]

Other editors were asking for the opinion of someone familiar with the subject. Users can indeed be disruptive by

making things up. The article should be deleted: it is misleading, unencyclopedic and there's very little content that can be salvaged, simply because of the unduly restricted context and essay-like writing. I'm sure that Brews was quite aware of this when he wrote it: he simply seems to do whatever comes into his mind. Count Iblis is known for supporting contributors who write articles on science off the tops of their heads like this (eg User:Likebox). It is worrying that he is unwilling to admit where the fundamental flaw is [the assumption that the ambient space is 3-dimensional] and instead chooses to attack me. As I've said, the article should be deleted. The problems with it are exactly the same as those involving physics articles, like speed of light. Perhaps Brews should be banned from all science articles on wikipedia. Mathsci (talk) 06:18, 29 December 2009 (UTC)[reply

]

I'm sorry, but this is unreasonable. Brews' content was sourced and his attitude was cooperative throughout—unlike his conduct that led to the Speed of light arbitration decision of which enforcement is sought. Your comments on the content of the article are most welcome on the article's talk page, but they do not belong here at Arbitration Enforcement. If you believe that nothing in the article is salvagable, AfD is thataway. This is not something that warrants sanctions.—Finell 06:34, 29 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Wow....talk about selling the bear skin on a live bear. Topic banning from all science topics because you don't like the content? Sounds vaguely familiar but damn it's hardcore actually seeing someone post it. (Note I know he isn't Arbcom) In all my rants I am stressing the one major point, we are all volunteers. Frankly sometimes I think people get their rocks off on power tripping but for the most part we are all here for the project, if we all remember that we can tolerate a whole lot more.

talk) 06:41, 29 December 2009 (UTC)[reply

]

I commented here because

p-vector[75]: that article is a stub devoted almost excelusively to bivectors; it explains that the main applications of bivectors are in physics, eg classification of electromagnetic fields.) It's not a question of toleration. Spurious topics in mathematics are not that hard to identify. Brews has invented the topic himself, with a bizarre scope [statements about 3-dimensions that do not generalize]: there seems to be little relation between the sources and what he has written. WikiProject Mathematics would obviously be a better place to have these discussions and an AfD would also be appropriate. On the other hand, per the suggestion, it seems quite reasonable to comment here on whether Brews is just moving his personal editing style, which has already caused problems in mathematical physics articles, to a quite nearby area. My comments might encourage others to pay attention to Brews' future edits to mathematics articles. He might also get the message himself if he reads this. Mathsci (talk) 14:00, 29 December 2009 (UTC)[reply

]

I didn't want to comment here after my original proposal but after finishing what I was doing on another couple of articles I've started work on Bivector, after which it will hopefully be a more useful article, remove I hope the need to debate the qualities of it in this discussion. --JohnBlackburne (talk) 14:14, 29 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The article could be salvaged if it devoted space to applications in physics (brief summary with wikilinks). Should it not be merged into

trivector (a redirect) ... Mathsci (talk) 14:38, 29 December 2009 (UTC)[reply

]

I looked at the argument in question. I have to confess that I couldn't get into the subtlety of the argument, and so I don't know who is right. But I do know enough about Brews to know never to underestimate him. So I went to the related topic of

Sir William Rowan Hamilton's inspiration in 1843 as he walked along the tow path of the Royal Canal in Dublin. That inspiration is the cornerstone of the cross product. I even put in a photograph of the commemorative plaque on Brougham Bridge

that relates to the fact that Hamilton was so excited about his inspiration that he inscribed it on the wall of that bridge.

And as fully expected, JohnBlackburne did indeed come along and revert all my edits in one clean swoop, lock, stock, and barrel. Now I have absolutely no intention of going back there for an edit war. I have no interest at this moment in time of getting involved in maths articles, especially if it means having to have an edit war. I have no intention of helping wikipedia in articles that involve edit wars. The point however is, that I now know for absolute certainty that in relation to cross product, JohnBlackburne is totally wrong, and so I think that we all need to seriously consider the fact that in relation to his argument with Brews ohare, that he may well be wrong there too. David Tombe (talk) 14:26, 29 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

David Tombe (talk · contribs) is topic-banned in a similar way to Brews ohare. Is it a complete coincidence that these ediors are moving their problematic editing style onto mathematics articles, for which the main raison d'être is applications in physics? Mathsci (talk) 14:46, 29 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I did, after reviewing them all. See the edit summary for why. Raise it on the talk page if you think I'm wrong, it's irrelevant to the discussion here. --JohnBlackburne (talk) 15:12, 29 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

No it's not a coincidence. It was my way of ascertaining whether or not JohnBlackbourne knows what he is talking about. I have studied vector cross product in depth. Blackbourne's removal of my good faith edits at cross product was a sufficient indicator to me of who may be the problem as between Brews and JohnBlackbourne. And while I'm on here, you referred to my edits at cross product as being problematic. I think somehow, I've been here before. Would you mind explaining to all and sundries exactly what was problematic about those edits.

And just to make it easier for everybody, let's start with my very first edit at

seven dimensional cross product. Nobody there ever seems to have had a problem with it. David Tombe (talk) 14:53, 29 December 2009 (UTC)[reply

]

In your first edit you added your signature to the page and references to cross products in zero and one dimensions which simply don't exist. Subsequent edits largely were to do with adding a new history section, despite their already being one title "History" which is much more appropriate to the page, which suggests you didn't read the article or even look at its contents before editing it. --JohnBlackburne (talk) 18:37, 29 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Purely an individual opinion. The complaint and discussion seems side-tracked on the topic ban issue. However, some editors have commented that while the topic ban does not apply, there are continuing behavioral patterns that need to be addressed. I would ask that editors and any reviewing administrators consider this core aspect of the situation, rather than focus purely on the regulatory details of a topic restriction. Either there is a continuing problematic pattern of behavior, or there is not. If it is establish that there is an ongoing problem, Brews ohare is under a general conduct probation. Any uninvolved administrator may implement (as examples):

• a binding user conduct RfC
• a requirement for some minimum time for responses and/or number of editors responding before continuing after an edit dispute and/or acting on proposals
• an editing speed limit
• a requirement to defer to the consensus at a relevant WikiProject talk page or content noticeboard
• a size and/or speed limit on discussion contributions
• a requirement to stop editing when encountering disagreement and develop consensus with the assistance of dispute resolution as needed (essentially requiring
  WP:BRD
  )

Any number of editing conditions and sanctions can be imposed in order to provide any necessary boundaries and/or imposed guidance. The discussion should focus on whether or not there is a ongoing pattern of problematic conduct. If there is a continuing issue, focus on what conditions will help provide Brews ohare with the guidance and boundaries necessary and best insulate the project from disruption. Vassyana (talk) 02:43, 29 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

My wording was perhaps somewhat clumsy below. I reviewed Brew's conduct (His competence to write the article is another matter) related to this article and did not find it sufficiently problematic to impose restrictions, but I'd be happy to hear if others have differing opinions. I would of course urge him to listen closely to the concerns of others. If it turns out to be a re-occuring problem that Brews ohare writes factually subpar articles and doesn't listen to input when this is pointed out, there are definitely grounds for additional restrictions [under the existing ruling, whether related to physics or not]. henrik•talk 15:23, 29 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Henrik, In my opinion, it's JohnBlackburne that you need to worry about. David Tombe (talk) 15:41, 29 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the clarification Henrik. That about cinches it for me. I'd recommend archiving/closing this thread before it degenerates further, since no further action or review is needed here. Vassyana (talk) 09:59, 30 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I have yet to see the evidence that Brews is not listening now to others causing disruption. Mathsci and JohnBlackburne could reasonably complain after some detailed talk page discussions and then if Brews were to completely ignore those discussions. But all I see are short statements by JohnBlackburne. My own experience with technical articles is that you really need to take the time to explain things, like I did here. Wikipedia does not recognize any "expert status", but you can be a de-facto expert by behaving like a professor who takes the time to discuss things with his students. Count Iblis (talk) 16:14, 29 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

JohnBlackburne, Your argument above simply doesn't wash. You said that I accidentally signed in my first edit. True. And if you look at my second edit, you will see that I corrected that trivial error within minutes. Your argument about the history doesn't wash either. I added more material about

Sir William Rowan Hamilton and the famous incident at Brougham Bridge, Royal Canal

, Dublin in 1843, and while doing so, I corrected some inaccurate material in that section. It could ultimately have been merged with the other history section given a bit of collaborative editing. Your actions in deleting all my edits in one go showed yourself up totally, because I was fully expecting you to come along and do that. I checked the history of the article back as far as 2007 and I didn't find a single edit by yourself on that article, although I did find quite a few by Brews ohare. On the other seven dimensional article, you definitely had never edited it.

So what was this all about? It's strange that you just happened to go to two maths pages that I had edited on, and which you had never edited on, and simply delete good material, lock, stock, and barrel, rather than discussing the matter on the talk page first. What had alerted you to the fact that I had gone there? Do you constantly watch maths pages that you never edit? I would suggest that it is you who is being disruptive, and that it is you who lacks the relevant expertise, and I would suggest that you withdraw this shameful action against Brews. There is nothing more utterly reprehensible than to try and gain advantage in a maths argument by exploiting Brews ohare's vulnerability as regards his physics topic ban. I've seen Brews from both sides of the fence. Never underestimate him. If he is arguing about something, you can be sure that he is unto something good that others have overlooked. And alot of his trouble has been stirred up by by people who dig in after their lack of knowledge has been exposed. Drop it! David Tombe (talk) 03:48, 30 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sure other editors can evaluate my contributions for themselves. On cross product I have a number of mathematics pages I am interested in watchlisted including Seven-dimensional cross product. After fixing that article I checked for any related edits by the editor that caused the problems, and after reviewing the changes on cross product, reverted them. The changes I removed were the erroneous statement about 0 and 1 dimensions, a badly written sentence that duplicated the one before it, and a new (i.e. identically titled) history section when there already was a much better one which includes the appropriate quaternion history. If you still feel I was wrong please raise it on the talk page, the appropriate place to do so, where it can be discussed it at more length.--JohnBlackburne (talk) 09:36, 30 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Result concerning Brews ohare

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

• WP:WPMATH to discuss? Assuming there are no contrary comments in a day or so, I'll archive this request then. henrik•talk 22:48, 27 December 2009 (UTC)[reply
  ]
• I was involved for much of this case. If we had meant to ban math articles as well, we would have done so. I think no action is required here. Cool Hand Luke 09:07, 30 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Given that the discussion above has started to stray into other directions, only tangentially related to the user in question and not very likely to yield productive outcomes, I think it's time to end this discussion. May I remind the editors above that AE is not the place to argue various grievances nor a part of the dispute resolution process, its only purpose is to enforce existing arbitration remedies. henrik•talk 09:59, 30 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]