Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive201

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning DerAnsager

User who is submitting this request for enforcement

NorthBySouthBaranof (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 18:22, 24 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

User against whom enforcement is requested

DerAnsager (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced

Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Editing of Biographies of Living Persons :

Diffs

of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

1. 17 October 2016 Reverted unreliably-sourced claims.
2. 17 October 2016 Same as above, after discussion initiated by another user.
3. 24 October 2016 After subject came up on BLPN and more discussion resulted, simply reverted again.
4. 24 October 2016 Again reverted after being told the sourcing was unacceptable. At this point, began simply revert-warring these unsourced attacks.
5. 24 October 2016 Yet another stale revert of unreliably-sourced negative claims.
6. 24 October 2016 Again reverted this poorly-sourced material - only stopping because an administrator stepped in to revert and protect the page after this request was filed.

If

WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts

)

Notified of discretionary sanctions here, with several previous non-template discussions of policy and advice to examine sourcing requirements.

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

User is persistently inserting poorly-sources, highly-negative claims about a living person (Markus Gabriel) into their biography - to wit, assertions that the subject has commited plagiarism. The only source cited for this claim is the personal homepage of the accuser and a letter from Markus Gabriel's university stating that an investigation found the claims to be groundless. Clearly, without a reliable secondary source commenting on the issue, it does not belong in the biography. Myself and other users have attempted to discuss sourcing requirements and policies repeatedly with his user, and are met with nothing but flat denials and blind reverts. The user has very few edits outside the topic area and seems to be on a personal mission to push these claims against policy and good sense. A topic ban seems warranted. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 18:22, 24 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I'm trying to do this from a phone, which is rather more difficult than I expected. Thanks for your patience. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 18:44, 24 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Debresser, as you can see from the user's talk page, repeated attempts were made to get the user to stop edit-warring poorly-sourced negative material into the article, to absolutely no avail. They are simply dead-set on believing they're right and nothing anyone says gets them to stop, until I filed this request which led to Drmies stepping in to revert and protect the page. If you have a suggestion for what I or anyone else could have done differently here, please let me know. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 20:56, 24 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Notified here

Discussion concerning DerAnsager

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by DerAnsager

Statement by Debresser

The user is active on the German Wikipedia. So he understands the principles of community editing. I see absolutely no reason or justification for blocking or banning people for behavior related to a what is basically a content issue on a single article. I am confident that a bit of explanation is all that is needed here. Talk about overkill. Debresser (talk) 20:00, 24 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by (username)

Result concerning DerAnsager

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

• It seems to me that NBSB isn't quite finished with this report, but in the meantime I have reverted the editor, warned them, and fully protected the article for the time being. Drmies (talk) 18:30, 24 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Given that the editor's only, or most important, interest here is adding that poorly sourced content to a BLP, I have no objection to an indefinite block. But I'll settle for a topic ban from this BLP, for instance. Drmies (talk) 18:32, 24 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• User:DerAnsager has continued to respond at User talk:DerAnsager#October 2016 after Drmies made his warning. The material is defamatory and the sources are not good. But there is no sign that DerAnsager is going to take the message on board. I've gone ahead with an indefinite block as a conventional admin action, for disruptive editing. EdJohnston (talk) 21:36, 24 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Appealing user

WaunaKeegan11 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) – Ks0stm ^{(T•C•G•E)} 22:53, 23 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Sanction being appealed

72 hour block for violating the 1RR on

United States presidential election, 2016 (Log

)

Administrator imposing the sanction

Ks0stm (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)

Notification of that administrator

I am notified. Ks0stm ^{(T•C•G•E)} 22:57, 23 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by WaunaKeegan11

"The consensus clearly states that anyone with access to 270 electoral votes or above is allowed in the infobox and a block is unjustified to fix this."
Copied from their user talk page per their request. Ks0stm ^{(T•C•G•E)} 22:53, 23 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Ks0stm

Original, Revert 1, Revert 2. Ks0stm ^{(T•C•G•E)} 22:55, 23 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by (involved editor 1)

Statement by (involved editor 2)

Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by WaunaKeegan11

Result of the appeal by WaunaKeegan11

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

• On the face, it seems simple. Earlier in the day, information was removed. [1]. WaunaKeegan11 then reverted to add it back [2], it was removed by someone else [3] and WaunaKeegan11 instantly reverted a second time.[4]. From a technical standpoint, there is a clear violation. Violating the 1RR restriction is only allowed under very specific circumstances, such as an obvious BLP violation. Saying "but I am right and there is a consensus" isn't a valid exception, even if you are right. I would recommend declining the request to overturn or unblock. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 23:18, 23 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• As long as they promise not to make the same edit again, I would support their unblocking. They were clearly in the right making those edits and should not have been in a position where they needed to revert twice in one day to restore a consensus decision. It seems particularly unfair if the editors violating that consensus received no sanctions for their edits. Number 57 12:02, 24 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• As Dennis says, being "right" isn't usually considered a reason not to block or to unblock. The unblock request shows no indication that the editor believes that it was wrong to violate the 1RR restriction and in any case promising not the make the same edit isn't the same as promising to abide by 1RR. Suggesting that it might be seems a bad precedent. Doug Weller talk 16:35, 24 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• Righteous block, and the request shows no understanding of the problem. Guy (Help!) 17:32, 25 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• I see no reason to lift the block at this time. T. Canens (talk) 19:32, 25 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Anythingyouwant

User who is submitting this request for enforcement

Volunteer Marek (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 06:01, 20 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

User against whom enforcement is requested

Anythingyouwant (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced

Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/American_politics_2#Discretionary_sanctions_.281932_cutoff.29

Diffs

of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

1. [5]
2. [6]
3. [7]
4. [8]

That's four reverts on an article under 1RR restriction.

If

WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts

)

Right above

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

I am filing this per User:Seraphimblade's comment in closing the above AE request [9] Any other issues should be brought up as separate issues rather than being rolled into this one..

While I agree with the closure of the above request, and that THOSE two edits were justified on BLP grounds, THESE FOUR reverts are not. This appears to be a case of Anythingyouwant running wild and interpreting favorable comments on the previous issue as a carte blanche to revert at will. In this particular case, the edits being reverted are NOT a BLP violation as they are strongly sourced AND there is consensus for the wording on talk [10] (note that because Anythingyouwant started to move other people's comments around some of the flow of the conversation got compromised)

This comment Anythingyouwant clearly indicates that they are aware that "sexual assault" is a potentially valid and sourced way to describe what happened - forcible groping and kissing is "sexual assault" (and ATW agrees). So EVEN IF Anythingyouwant prefers a different description they cannot invoke BLP to make the change. The fact that they did so indicates they are acting in bad faith and making attempts at

It seems that Anythingyouwant is trying to use the fact that they were correct in ONE PARTICULAR instance as some kind of twisted mandate to exempt themselves from 1RR... or even 3RR.

And seriously, starting another edit war, and making four reverts on a 1RR article WHILE there's an open AE request on you for the very thing is just... uh, bad form. Or it's a brazen flaunting of the rules.

Tiptoe, Masem, you're trying to argue about content as a way to derail the discussion. But the problem is the 4 (or is it now 5?) reverts in 24hrs on a 1RR article done under a false pretext. You can discuss the issue on talk page if you want. The question here is simply did these edits violate 1RR. Which of course they did.Volunteer Marek (talk) 17:12, 20 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Just a quick comment on people who are saying something along the lines of "both sides should be sanctioned or neither". No. Yes, there are two sides, and there is disagreement. But disagreement by itself is not sanctionable. What is sanctionable is making 5 reverts on an article under 1RR. And ONLY ONE person has done that. Anythingyouwant. Come on! Shortly before he went on his edit warring spree Anything was agitating for other editors to be sanctioned for making a SINGLE EDIT! Not five, one. And it, unlike Anything's reverts, had consensus too. If that's not WP:BATTLEGROUND I don't know what is. Same goes for several of his supportive commentators.Volunteer Marek (talk) 04:32, 22 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Discussion concerning Anythingyouwant

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Anythingyouwant

Will deal with this tomorrow, gotta get sleep.Anythingyouwant (talk) 06:06, 20 October 2016 (UTC) Might I suggest tweaking the top-level header to distinguish it from the other identical header? I probably won't get to this until late tonight (it's now 1:46 PM where I am). In the mean time, please note that an almost identical complaint was brought up yesterday toward the end of the other Anythingyouwant section, and I wrote some responsive material there,[11] and that section was closed with this statement:[reply]

The originally reported edits were good faith reverts as potential BLP problems and so were exempt from revert restrictions. Therefore, no violation of 1RR occurred from these edits. Any other issues should be brought up as separate issues rather than being rolled into this one. All editors are reminded that a clear consensus is required to revert an edit which notes it corrects a BLP problem.[12]

So, when I respond to the present issues tonight, I assume that the originally reported edits presented in this current section are what I need to justify or defend (not separate issues that may be subsequently raised here).Anythingyouwant (talk) 17:57, 20 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, I have some free time now. I'll probably have my response posted here within the hour.Anythingyouwant (talk) 23:11, 20 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I won’t repeat what I already said about this accusation when it was first made in the previous section here at AE, but I will add to what I already said (as briefly as possible). It is amusing that

• "Reverting huge edit to lead. Per
  WP:BLP
  , as I have explained and no one has disputed, 'Sexual assault' is a broad term that often (if not usually) suggests rape or attempted rape."
• "Reverting repeated insertion of 'sexual assault' into the lead in place of more specific language that does not include rape. Per
  WP:BLP
  ."
• "Per
  WP:BLP
  , reverting to Dr Fleishman. Mr X, see WP:Game, 'Removing a large addition for a minor error'. You undid edits about which there was no dispute. In so doing, you have implied rape."
  

We recently had a decision at AE confirming that explicit discussion of "rape" and "child rape" is not currently suitable for this lead, per

@User:Drmies, you say "Equating rape with sexual assault and thus claiming the same exemption is not going to work." I emphatically didn't do that. As I said above: "I do not rule out use of the term 'sexual assault' in the lead, but it has to be used carefully (like I did here), in such a way as to not suggest or insinuate allegations of rape." Rape and attempted rape are among the most common forms of sexual assault generally, and the number one form of sexual assault on college campuses,[15] and marital rape is another of the most common forms of sexual assault.[16][17] According to the lead of our Wikipedia article about sexual assault (until it was just edited by a participant in the present case), "In some places...the crime of 'sexual assault' has replaced the traditional crime of rape, and is being defined as non-consensual penetrative sex." Use of the term "sexual assault" in the Trump lead has to be done carefully so as not to suggest possible rape accusations. I would be glad to stop editing the Trump article until after the election if that will save me from a topic ban, but I think you're mistaken to green light deliberate insinuations of things you've already barred.Anythingyouwant (talk) 02:21, 21 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@User:Drmies, well, I stand by what I said too. It's like putting in the lead of your BLP that you're a convicted criminal because you once committed a slight misdemeanor. Technically correct but grossly and unnecessarily misleading. Got it now? People see "sexual assault" and very often think "rape".Anythingyouwant (talk) 03:23, 21 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@User:Tataral et al., "On Political positions of Jeb Bush...it would be alright for you to edit parts of the article that cover his positions on, say, taxes or foreign policy." I've never edited any of the abortion material in the Trump article.Anythingyouwant (talk) 03:43, 21 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@User:Drmies, when people hear the word "sexual assault" the last thing many people think of is kissing. And I have reliable sources to back me up. See, for example, this piece in Huffington Post: "'Sexual assault'—an incredibly loaded term—can mean a lot of different things in different contexts....I said I’d come back to the issue of kissing. Remember that this counts, in the AAU survey, as 'sexual touching' - and therefore (possibly) a form of sexual assault....I expect that many people will be tempted to roll their eyes. Kissing? Sure, it might be unpleasant if you weren’t expecting it, but is it really in the same 'category' as rape?" It is indeed in the same category, but most (or at least many) people don't know that, and you, sir, are supporting a highly misleading lead in one of our highest-profile BLPs. But thanks for supporting a shorter topic-ban.Anythingyouwant (talk) 04:03, 21 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@

WP:LEAD, "The lead is the first part of the article that most people will read. For many, it may be the only section that they read....The lead should stand on its own as a concise overview of the article's topic." You are grossly mistaken in your assertion that a preponderance of reliable sources support using the term "sexual assault" without clarifying that the allegations do not involve rape or attempted rape. I recommend to you the comment below by User:Dervorguilla for further details.Anythingyouwant (talk) 09:58, 21 October 2016 (UTC)[reply

]

@Admins, ‪"While sexual assault is usually seen as rape, state statutes generally include any unwanted sexual contact...." ‪Paludi, Michele. Campus Action Against Sexual Assault, p. 56 (

@Admins, one need not be a genius to understand that Wikipedia has the potential to be the biggest source of free knowledge in human history, or the biggest propaganda machine in human history. Maybe it's one or both of those things already. My goal has always been to steer it from the latter to the former. But I see from several of the admin comments that the usual forces in favor of the latter are hard at work. Instead of direct and biased censorship of article content, one can try to get rid of editors who get in the way. As long as User:Jimbo Wales wants this kind of baloney to continue it will continue, and when he is gone there may well be no way to stop it. The structure of dispute resolution at Wikipedia is deeply flawed, and you need to decentralize. Please think about the immense advantages that would accrue from asking (or even requiring) a group of random editors in good standing to decide each case fairly based upon clear rules. A vertical hierarchy is a recipe for disaster, whether it's elected or not. Thank you, and pardon me if I take leave of this particular coliseum.Anythingyouwant (talk) 14:27, 22 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@User:Dennis Brown, thanks for your reasonable comments. The term "sexual assault" can mean anything from an unwanted peck on the cheek to unwanted sexual intercourse. The reliable sources that use the term with regard to Trump almost always clarify exactly what they mean. For us to use the term in the lead without clarification is to insert a suggestion of rape into the lead which is not present in the reliable sources. There is no doubt about this whatsoever, and so if admins want me to stop removing this poorly sourced suggestion from the lead on BLP grounds then you can either ask me politely or topic-ban me; either way, I'll stop doing it. But under protest against such silliness.Anythingyouwant (talk) 20:54, 26 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

It appears that the admin consensus is to look the other way as an insinuation of rape is put back into the lead of this BLP, by using the term "sexual assault" without elaboration (and contrary to the sources which do elaborate that it refers to forcible kissing and groping). Many people will understand this use of the term "sexual assault" as a reference to rape. "'Sexual assault'—an incredibly loaded term—can mean a lot of different things in different contexts."[18] "While sexual assault is usually seen as rape, state statutes generally include any unwanted sexual contact...."[19] The leading law dictionary in the United States (Black's) gives a primary sense and a secondary sense of "sexual assault"; the primary sense is "Sexual intercourse with another person who does not consent" and the secondary sense is "Offense of sexual contact with another person, exclusive of rape." So you're making an extremely poor decision. Not sure if I care to appeal though, since many of you would be involved in that process too.Anythingyouwant (talk) 03:46, 27 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by MrX

Of the four diffs listed by Marek, at least three are unambiguous reverts within a 24 hour period. Doing so under the shelter of the

In this revert (5th; not in the above list) Anythingyouwant claiming that material must be restored to an article because of

In addition to edit warring and abusing the

• Steeletrap started this RfC On October 15 at 19:27. Anythingyouwant changed it to a non-RfC and then started a competing RfC a little over two hours later. Note the question posed: "At the time this RFC is being started, the lead says, "Allegations of sexual misconduct against Trump were widely reported in the weeks before the election." Is this number of words in the lead not enough [insufficient], for the time being, regarding this subject?". Not only is this awkwardly worded as noted by several commenters, but it begs the question. In my view, this does not represent a good faith effort to determine consensus, but rather an attempt to control consensus by framing the questions with a particular outcome in mind.
• Anythingyouwant used similar tactics in this RfC, attempting to influence the closer of the RfC by Wikilawyering over the term "firm consensus"; using the presence of citations in the lead as a reason for opposing; asking the closer to consider a completely different version of the proposed content; and creating a competing RfC six days after the original one was created.

Anythingyouwant also seems intent on polishing Donald Trump's reputation, in violation of

• Here, he wants to change the simple fact that Trump bragged about sexual assaulting women, to Trump bragged about his capacity to grope and forcibly kiss women: Talk:Donald_Trump#Capacity for groping and forcibly kissing women).
• Sometimes he lobbies to add random material, apparently to dilute anything critical about the subject: Talk:Donald_Trump#Removal of sexual misconduct allegations.
• Filibustering about a fringe point of view by cherry-picking sources: Talk:Donald_Trump/Archive_29#Our obligations when media sources differ
• Misrepresenting sources: Talk:Donald_Trump/Archive_27#Description of donees from the Foundation Center
• Wikilawyering to override the clear consensus from an RfC: Talk:Donald_Trump/Archive_24#Discretionary sanctions issue
• Using
  WP:OR to make something bad sound better. [25] [26]

Apparently, Anythingyouwant has been emboldened by escaping sanctions in the previous two AE cases in which his behavior was scrutinized. At his point, I think a 6 month topic ban should be considered. I don't think a block for edit warring would have a lasting effect, nor would it address the totality of the concerns.- MrX 15:00, 20 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Masem: What you describe is a matter for reasonable editorial discussion, which has been ongoing, productive, and mostly collegial on the talk page. In no way does a dispute about appropriate weight in a lead, or wording anywhere in the article, justify edit warring or gaming the system to gain advantage. I've said it before: these are some of the same counterproductive behaviors that were documented in the AP1 and AP2 Arbcom cases. I'm not aware that there are any more left-leaning editors trying to vilify right-leaning subjects, than the exact opposite, as evidenced for example in the various Clinton articles. Of course, if you have any evidence of such misdeeds being widespread, AE is also at your disposal.- MrX 17:11, 20 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Tiptoethrutheminefield

This case follows on almost immediately after a near identical case [27] that was also raised against Anythingyouwant. The initiators of each are attempting to misuse the American Politics 2 discretionary sanctions in order to usurp our common obligation to obey BLP requirements. As in the earlier case, the content deleted by Anythingyouwant violated BLP policies and required removal. He cannot be sanctioned under subject specific sanctions for doing this. MrX claims, above, that Anythingyouwant "escaped sanctions" in that earlier case, weasely insinuating a lucky escape by a guilty party. The reality was the exact opposite: the idea that Anythingyouwant had violated sanctions was conclusively dismissed and everyone agreed that the material he removed was violating BLP requirements. The nastiness and general slimyness seen in the Donald Trump article content is getting out of hand, and I think Volunteer Markek and his ever-present sidekick My very best wishes want that state of affairs to continue. The misrepresentation and distortion of sources is blatant - I have pointed out one example of it here: [28]. Does Fyddlestix, in his definitions of "sexual assault" given below, consider shaking hands with a fully clothed 15 year old counts as "sexual assault"? The article as it is currently worded does. Here is another example: obviously off-topic detail about Mike Tyson's 1992 rape conviction added and then editorialized into being linked to his 2016 endorsement of Trump, editorialising done for no other reason I am sure than to blatantly imply guilt by association - [29]. And this stuff is actually placed in a section of the article dealing with Trump's business interests! At best, the part dealing with Tyson's 2016 endorsement could be on Donald Trump presidential campaign, 2016 as part of a listing of celebrity endorsements. I also think this here [30] is a bad faith implied threat intended to be seen by all editors working on the article - article talk pages are about content discussions and are not for notices about cases raised against individual editors. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 15:09, 20 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Fyddlestix's claim that the obvious falsehood of the implied "15 year old in a state of undress" claim and related content is a completely separate issue to this case is unconvincing to me. This case is about an editor trying to follow BLP requirements, that content reveals how bad the BLP infractions have gotten in the article; it reveals more of the serious problem that Anythingyouwant was trying to reduce when making the edits that are being used to bring him here. I have "made no comment on" that content, says Fyddlestix, correctly. Yet, while washing his hands of that ongoing misrepresentation of sexual assault in the article's content (it had been there for at least a week, and is still there in a very slightly changed form, in a section formerly titled "Sexual assault allegations" that is now titled "Sexual misconduct allegations"), he still feels able to comment here on exactly what a "sexual assault" is. Does he think shaking hands with a clothed 15 year old counts as "sexual misconduct"? The article does.Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 19:07, 20 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Fyddlestix

Just commenting to note that the suggestion that "sexual assault" is a BLP violation (Anythingyouwant's stated reason for the removals linked above) is wholly inaccurate. The term does not imply an accusation of rape by any stretch of the imagination. It is variously defined by some of the most authoritative sources imaginable as:

• "any crime in which the offender subjects the victim to sexual touching that is unwanted and offensive"
• "any type of sexual contact or behavior that occurs without the explicit consent of the recipient"
• "unwanted sexual contact between victim and offender" which includes "such things as grabbing or fondling".

In short, this is precisely what Trump has been accused of. There are also a very large number of reliable sources that document those accusations, and which specifically apply the term "sexual assault" to Trump's case. I listed some (one example from each major American news outlet) here, but there are dozens (very likely hundreds) or RS that apply the term to Trump. So please don't give the claim of a BLP exemption any credence here, it's demonstrably false. Fyddlestix (talk) 15:56, 20 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Tiptoethrutheminefield: re: this - the answer is no, of course not. My comments above were obviously in reference to the edits by Anythingyouwant that Marek linked in the complaint above, there is nothing in those edits or in mine that implies what you suggest. This is a completely separate issue, which I have made no comment on. I suggest you redact your comment and avoid making such utterly preposterous suggestions going forward, it's obviously not going to help resolve the dispute. Fyddlestix (talk) 17:52, 20 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

This is lovely too. Can an admin at least hand out some warnings here? Left unchecked the behavioral issues at this article are just going to get worse. Fyddlestix (talk) 00:14, 21 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by SPECIFICO

Anythingyouwant is evading her TBAN from abortion-related articles through a campaign of disruptive edits to articles on the US election, where the future of the Supreme Court and abortion-related law is at stake. She bludgeons discussion threads with a broad spectrum of artful, passive-aggressive deflections, equivocations, and denials to hog-tie neutral policy-based editing. I doubt she is as incompetent as her words would suggest, so I interpret this behavior to be willful (or at least uncontrollable) disruption. She's been amply warned on her talk page and on the article talk pages, but she knows most editors will not take the time and effort to file complaints such as this one. In my opinion, most editors react not by pursuing Enforcement but simply by walking away from the articles. I can't believe that Arbcom Enforcement Admin's wish to validate the disruptive editing strategy of this consummate Wikilawyer and allow her to hound ever more editors off of these abortion-related election articles. The current revert-warring has nothing in common with the one in the previous complaint, where the use of the word "rape" was not well-supported by RS and was undue and was arguably a BLP violation. SPECIFICO talk 17:05, 20 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Anythingyouwant recently ignored warnings from several editors. Here is mine, on her talk page: [31] SPECIFICO talk 17:42, 20 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Masem: BLP above all, but it's been amply demonstrated that BLP does not justify Anythingyouwant's reverts. Not even plausibly. Public figure, hundreds of RS, accurately represented. SPECIFICO talk 21:24, 20 October 2016 (UTC) You're going on at length about perceived systemic bias on WP and other general concerns, but my point is that this is a complaint about specific behavior of one editor under clearly defined circumstances and the violation is verifiable and proven. Larger issues belong elsewhere. SPECIFICO talk 21:57, 20 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Admins, you have a tough job. But you're here voluntarily and the community is counting on you. Even if it's facetious, the suggestion of rounding up active editors (I'm not one of them) and TBANning the whole carload is appalling. This is a simple case of a Anything, a deft and experienced wikilawyer, gaming the system to violate her Abortion Topic Ban -- a ban she openly renounces as illegitimate at every opportunity. Because she's so careful not to be overtly hostile or uncivil, she will not come up for any really draconian penalties, no matter how much of other editors' time she wastes. If the glove don't fit, you must acquit, but in this case it's more like "if the shoe fits, wear it." She needs to have her Abortion-related TBAN extended to American Politics, where her disruptive editing and obstruction is an obvious evasion of her existing TBAN. T-t-t-that's all folks! SPECIFICO talk 17:45, 21 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Masem

I'd echo the statement of Tiptoethrutheminefield above - while it may be true that these are accusations put against him, they have no business to be highlighted to that great a detail in the lede. I've been finding more and more that some editors seem to want to vilify any BLP that is right-leaning to the greatest extent they can by reliable sources (which are broadly left-leaning, making it easy to find material to pin on the BLP) in the lede, where instead

@MrX: The issue that I have been seeing becoming more and more of problem, something I identified back in the Gamrilel arbcom case. I agree there's probably just as many right-leaning editors seeking to vilify left-leaning BLPs as vice versa (a practice that should be condonedcondemned, either direction) The issue, however, is that our RS policy has developed in a manner that favors left-leaning sources and excludes right-leaning ones, so trying to back up a claim against a left-leaning BLP is nearly impossible with the lack of usable RSes, but finding claims against right-leaning BLP is easy as pie due to the predominate number of usable RSes. (There's a whole other external issue of shoddy journalism today but that's beyond our control). And left-leaning editors have used this alongside UNDUE (specifically) to insist this information must be included, overriding the principles of NPOV and BLP. Throwing a lot of detail about yet-proven accusations of a running candidate in the brief lede is exactly the type of thing we shouldn't be doing, but we're here because some editors don't see this as a problem. It's difficult to pin as AN issues because it is very slow, and it involves many degrees of subtly. There needs to be community-wide input and discussion of this problem. In the meanwhile, however, BLP still stands above all other policies. --MASEM (t) 21:15, 20 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@SPECIFICO: You're self-demonstrating the issue. I have no love of either candidate here, but there's just as much mud being thrown at Clinton as there is at Trump, but because those accusing Clinton are right-leaning sources, either editors deem the sources unreliable (which is a fair assessment for many right-leaning sources) or when the sources aren't unreliable, they state "well, they're unproven accusations, so we can't give any weight to those". That logic and impartiality is not implied in the current edits here. Just because the accusations are well-sourced to reliable sources they are unproven, and we should be using the utmost care to avoid giving undue weight to them by throwing them in the lede, as otherwise this give them implicit equal weight as his campaign platform and previous history. --MASEM (t) 21:55, 20 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

To several more recent comments, while one could argue this is a content situation since we are talking about material that is reliably sourced and that I do agree belong somewhere on WP (certainly in the article(s) about the specific presidential campaigns since the accusations are influencing the election to a degree), fundamentally these accusations (neither proven nor have led to any charges) are rumors and BLP is very specific about giving undue weight to rumormongering on BLP pages (Other policy like NOT#NEWS and RECENTISM also comes to mind). They shouldn't be mentioned in the lede at all at this point, but there's a certain callousness by several editors here that give the impression "oh, but reliable sources reign over BLP", which should not be happening here, otherwise we as Wikipedia are engaging in the external problem. We need to be better than the sources when it comes to impartiality and tone. To that point, the edits tagged above by Anythingyouwant are just as problematic as the edits undoing those, since they are retaining the core problematic BLP, but they are at least de-sensationalizing the newer additions. The fact that multiple editors appeared to have restored it shows that there's a larger problem than one person involved here. The suggestion of short-term topic ban for all involved until after the election makes sense to this point, because most of this appears centered on this developing issue, but I still believe we're not solving the long-term problems with this solution, but solving that is well beyond the remit of ArbCom. --MASEM (t) 23:02, 21 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by My very best wishes

Here is edit by Anythingyouwant made in violation of 1RR rule on the page. This edit does not fix any BLP violations because (a) the material in question is well-sourced and included on the page itself [32] and other pages [33],[34] and (b) the material remains in the lede even after the edit by Anythingyouwant but became less visible (note that only poorly sourced materials are exempt from 1RR rule [35]). Actually, no one disputed that the information itself was well-sourced, and must be included on the page. The dispute was about including this info in lede. Moreover, Anythingyouwant made revert of material that is currently under discussion in an RfC and was warned not make this edit in advance [36], but still did it. My very best wishes (talk) 17:35, 20 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@JFG. There is no "imbalance between the way Trump and Clinton's bios are treated by the wikipedian community". There could be only some "imbalance" in the way they are treated by

reliable sources, although this is difficult to say - one can compare pages here and here (perhaps there are more negative materials about another candidate). Also, one should not talk about "sides" per Wikipedia:Casting aspersions. My very best wishes (talk) 17:19, 21 October 2016 (UTC)[reply

]

• @Dennis Brown. Yes, many people have biases, which should not prevent their participation. The problem only arises when someone willingly violates editing restrictions and rules, does not admit it, and continue telling "I was right" even after being reported on WP:AE. My very best wishes (talk) 11:14, 25 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by James J. Lambden

I'd like one of the editors accusing AnythingYouWant to point to the discussion showing consensus for the edits she reverted. Steeletrap for example, makes no attempt to gain consensus for this latest edit.

The sequence as I see it here is:

• Editor A violates policy (BLP and article-specific restrictions) to include or alter article text
• Editor B violates policy by undoing Editor A's edit
• Optionally: Editor A reports Editor B to enforcement

Instead of talk page discussion we have edit-warring and enforcement requests. Can we require admin approval for changes, with consensus required for admin approval? I don't think that's unreasonable for the two candidates' BLPs in the weeks leading up to the election. James J. Lambden (talk) 18:25, 20 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

While I understand administrators reluctance to involve themselves, by my quick-and-dirty math about a million people viewed the Donald Trump article with dubious accusations of "child sexual abuse" or "child rape" in the lede. That should warrant serious action in any BLP. James J. Lambden (talk) 19:42, 20 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Drmies: The talk page lists 3 active arbitration remedies. You support (I think) sanctioning Anythingyouwant for violating the 2nd, which limits reverts to one every 24 hours, but say nothing about the filer and others who violated the 1st:

• Consensus required: All editors must obtain consensus on the talk page of this article before reinstating any edits that have been challenged (via reversion)

Is the 1st less important or does the warning at the top of this page, which tells filers:

• your own conduct may be examined as well, and you may be sanctioned for it

not apply? James J. Lambden (talk) 02:32, 21 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Final Comment: I'd like the record to show that in two diffs presented (35 and 36) for which she may be sanctioned, Anythingyouwant removed content reinstated by Volunteer Marek (diff) which had been previously removed by D.Creish (diff), DrFleischman (diff) and myself.

That same phrasing (sexual assault) was reinstated by MrX (diff), SPECIFICO (diff) and My very best wishes (diff) who all presented evidence against Anythingyouwant.

At the time of their edits, as now, the RFC favors exclusion from the lede or a brief mention, with no consensus to include "sexual assault", so each of these reinstatements violated the arbitration remedy that editors must obtain consensus on the talk page of this article before reinstating any edits that have been challenged (via reversion)

In sanctioning Anythingyouwant you'd allow the filer and several supporters to unambiguously violate a remedy, while sanctioning Anythingyouwant for violating another in reverting their violation - in a high profile BLP, regarding "sexual assault." I find it hard to believe not a single admin is concerned by that. James J. Lambden (talk) 03:55, 21 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Tataral

As pointed out by others, Anythingyouwant is "indefinitely topic-banned from abortion-related pages, broadly construed" (Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Abortion). One of the main issues for Donald Trump and his party in this election, as one could expect, is abortion (often in connection with appointments to the supreme court), which was one of the key issues debated, for instance, in the most recent presidential debate, in which Trump said "I am pro life and I will be appointing pro life judges" and even more polemically that under current abortion law in the US "You can take the baby and rip the baby out of the womb in the ninth month, on the final day".[37] The fact that abortion is one of the main issues for the Republican Party in presidential elections is very well known, and Trump has made it clear for a long time, and well before the edits in question, that he is an anti-abortion political candidate who uses strong anti-abortion language and who will appoint "pro life judges". It seems quite clear that the Trump article is within the scope of a topic ban covering "abortion-related pages, broadly construed." --Tataral (talk) 03:27, 21 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Dervorguilla

"sexual assault. 1. Sexual intercourse with another person who does not consent. 2. Offensive sexual contact with another person, exclusive of rape." (Black's Law Dictionary, 10th ed.)

In some states, sexual assault is understood to mean "forcible fondling" and the like. In other states, it's understood to mean "rape". An editor living in a conservative state may legitimately see a BLP violation where one living in a progressive state does not. (Note: The AP says that any statement "capable of conveying a defamatory meaning" is defamatory.)

In a Wikipedia article, you can fairly and ethically say that a suspect is accused of "sexual assault" if you make clear whether the allegator accused him of (1) rape or (2) forcible fondling. Which was not the case here. It accordingly appears to me that Anythingyouwant did no wrong. --Dervorguilla (talk) 09:24, 22 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I've read the statements by The Blade of the Northern Lights and Lankiveil, who are "almost of the view that the top 10 editors of the article ... in the past month should be banned until after the election is out of its misery" and "would not object at all to a topic ban for a number of editors on both 'sides' of this dispute until at least November 10". I'm Editor No. 8, and I support any such bilateral ban.

I'd like to see how the article evolves if we let the less-invested editors take over for a few weeks. I think you could feasibly implement an informal ban by asking all top-ten editors to voluntarily withdraw from editing the article for the duration. --Dervorguilla (talk) 09:45, 22 October 2016 (UTC) 07:40, 23 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by JFG

Throughout the election campaign, it has proven very hard to conduct a level-headed discussion towards building consensus. Discretionary sanctions are effective against simple trolls and relatively inexperienced editors, however experienced editors have both demonstrated uncanny capacity to skirt the rules or stonewall the process. Irrespective of political inclinations, AGF and BLP should prevail over attempts to smear a candidate or exonerate the other.

This case looks like a sanctions war between two experienced editors who seem to be both exasperated by the "other side". Either we give them both a slap on the wrist in the form of a week block or we TBAN them from political topics for a few months to cut the drama. I would not condone any unilateral sanctions against one side who happened to have a slightly different reading of BLP defense than the other side. We are facing a good-faith attempt at maintaining balance, not a sneaky attempt to game the DS. Several other editors have switched the lead one way or the other, this fact alone shows there is no consensus about keeping sexual assault accusations in the lead; my personal opinion is they should be left out until the RfC concludes, but I'd rather stay uninvolved on contents here.

The issue of imbalance between the way Trump and Clinton's bios are treated by the wikipedian community and journalistic sources is out of scope of this particular AE request but certainly needs to be kept in mind as background context in evaluating appropriate sanctions. — JFG ^talk 16:19, 21 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Irony: A couple months ago, when discussing whether to mention Trump's campaign lies in his bio, I warned that the lead would soon read "Trump is a notorious racist bigot child molester who is very likely to start World War III over a tweet." We're getting there, BLP be damned… Sad! — JFG ^talk 23:52, 22 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Drmies: I was just adding some lighthearted banter to the never-ending drama (two weeks left!). But I get your point on poisonous hyperbole. As you noticed too, people are seriously equating Trump's hairstyle to his political positions in terms of encyclopedic relevance: not only is the campaign both entertaining and appalling but so is its meta-coverage here — JFG ^talk 04:46, 24 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Mr Ernie

There are many editors in that topic area intent on using any and all sources and tidbits of information that portray Trump in a negative light. There are also many editors who are keen to oppose this approach. Mr Ernie (talk) 17:47, 21 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

It's disappointing to see the admin response to this. It's quite clear from a few previous enforcement cases that had Anythingyouwant edited with the opposite POV that we would be seeing calls for no action at the least, to boomerang at worst. Editors are trying to put any and every mention of negative items into Trump's lead, with no regard to weight or recentism or npov or notnews because of the house and MSM POV. Mr Ernie (talk) 17:05, 24 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Dr. Fleischman

I have no opinions to share about Anythingyouwant, but I would like to say that I trust that The Blade of the Northern Lights and Lankiveil's comments on the subject here and here were made in partial jest, and that if sanctions were to go beyond Anythingyouwant then evidence would be presented and those accused would get a chance to respond. I certainly agree that there's been a lot of POV pushing at Donald Trump recently, but I certainly wouldn't want to find myself the subject of arbitrary sanctions simply for contributing to a very controversial article. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 22:05, 21 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by The Four Deuces

I note Anythingyouwant changed "sexual assault" to "forcibly kissing and groping." The BLP issue seems to have some validity. A reader could be left with the impression that these were accusations of rape or similar felonies. I note that many news sources to refer to the allegations as "sexual assault," but they also clarify what the specific claims are. The version of the lead with "sexual assault" does not do that.

While Anythingyouwant has explained their reasons for changing the wording, I would ask the administrators examining this complaint to read the edit summaries and arguments against the change. Basically they are that by definition, it constitutes sexual assault, reliable sources use the term and there is consensus to keep it. As I mentioned above, sources that use the term clarify the specific claims. But none of them explain how it improves the article.

TFD (talk) 22:54, 21 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by (Markbassett)

???? What is listed seems clearly not 4 reverts (maybe too late but here's my $0.02)

The first two cited here and here have the same text 'Late in Trump's campaign', so show one revert to put his prior edit back in place. (The note on both mention reverting so maybe two reverts.

The next two there and there do not have the same text, so are not reverts of that prior item. They are also not the same between themselves -- it looks like Any changed "accusing him of varying degrees of assault" to "groping or forcible kissing by him" under note assault would mean rape; then when someone reinstated prior language a few (?) revs later he puts in a note "reverting to Dr. Fleischman' which edits an earlier part of the same line -- not to his third edit, it's undoing whoever reverted multiple intervening edits. Not a revert to his own language apparently, for whatever mitigation that may be. Again here what's shown is a mention of revert. I didn't go thru the history to see if I could confirm that they are actually reverts or not, but if that makes 3 it seems a bit mitigated that he was being self-reporting.

It's a bit of sidenote - but there's a lot of thrash over 'bragging' vs 'reported as bragging' vs 'talked' and whether it's about 'sexual misconduct' vs 'capability for' vs 'sexual assault' -- plus whether 'sexual assault' should be viewed as saying the felony 'rape'.

Markbassett (talk) 20:00, 22 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

p.s. The first two show a revert, but the second two are marked ass BLPviolation reverts ... maybe leans things a bit to ba cautious to not discourage Note marking or discourage BLPviolation claims. (And for those saying its a false claim ... when would invocation ever not have such remarks?). I at least was in TALK before this and still am saying 'sexual assault' is a legal term commonly understood as felony/rape for whatever that's worth. (Some states interpret the term to include non-penetration, and some advocates use the inflamatory term for lesser occurances ... but mostly read rape by drugs or weapon.) Markbassett (talk) 03:13, 23 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by Shock Brigade Harvester Boris

Given the unprecedented goings-on in the current U.S. presidential election it may be wise for any sanctions to continue until the outcome of the election is no longer a matter of significant dispute, or similar wording. The possibility of a drawn-out, acrimonious state-by-state legal challenge to the validity of the election is presently being discussed in high-end reliable sources.[38] These are strange times. Shock Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 02:00, 24 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by The Wordsmith

I am Recused from 2016 election-related articles, as usual. However as an editor, I would tend to largely agree with Dennis Brown here. Sexual assault and rape are not the same thing, however in many areas sexual assault is a euphemism for rape. The issue is not one of definition, but connotation. And having watched the discussions on that article for some time, good faith is failing and I have little doubt that the connotation wasn't absolutely intentional. It may not be a BLP vio by the literal text, but it definitely is by implication. I believe an admonishment is appropriate here, and after the election I predict that this topic area will be much quieter without the need for bans. The Wordsmith^{Talk to me} 14:12, 25 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by SashiRolls

I have no opinion regarding Anythingyouwant, however I do think it is worth noting that Volunteer Marek is a formidable edit warrior who has recently violated 1RR on the page

Now that I've had the courage to look into it, I'll say that I agree with those who say this is not a case of

WP:CRYBLP as there is no consensus for inclusion of this language in the lede on the talk page. I do not think Anythingyouwant should be sanctioned at all for these edits. SashiRolls (talk) 01:00, 27 October 2016 (UTC)[reply

]

This is a tough case for me. I think that Anythingyouwant's reverts were good in that they were on the right side of BLP, and were in line with the relevant discussion on the talk page. But I'm not convinced it was the kind of clear-cut BLP violation that warrants an exemption to 1RR. I think the Trump article needs experienced editors to counter the folks who want, say, an entire paragraph in the Lead devoted to sexual assault allegations. Anythingyouwant has certainly been that, but in the process has been engaging in long term borderline behavior, knowing that it would eventually lead to a topic ban. (I can provide diffs if requested.) In short, I think a topic ban is overdue, but it bugs me that this particular issue is the last straw. ~Awilley (talk) 16:37, 26 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Result concerning Anythingyouwant

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

• I'm sorry, I think all the uninvolved admins are too too tired. I know I am. Bishonen | talk 23:08, 20 October 2016 (UTC).[reply]

I've recovered and added a hopefully more useful comment at the end of this section, which seemed a better place for it even though technically perhaps not correct. Bishonen | talk 17:40, 23 October 2016 (UTC).[reply]

• As am I. I'm almost of the view that the top 10 editors of the article and talkpage in the past month should be banned until after the election is out of its misery, but I don't think that's feasible. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 00:48, 21 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

  My frustrated comment above stands, but in terms of this specific issue I think at least 6 month ban from American politics is warranted. I wholly agree with Drmies' summary below. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 02:57, 21 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

  I trust your judgment Drmies, and I'm willing to go with something shorter. Also, to be completely clear my comment above was not a suggestion for responding to this specific instance; I wouldn't do something like that without all the proper notifications and statements at least. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 03:30, 22 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• I wasn't aware of Anything vol. 1, which just closed; if I had seen that I would have agreed with closing that as a good-faith BLP exemption. However, I do not see how that applies here--I'm sorry, Anything. But the edit cannot be justified by way of the BLP exemption, since the allegations and their phrasing are well sourced and widely known, unlike the previous case's "rape". Equating rape with sexual assault and thus claiming the same exemption is not going to work. My colleague Masem says, above, "while it may be true that these are accusations put against him, they have no business to be highlighted to that great a detail in the lede"--this may well be true, and I am usually a fan of less rather than more, what Masem offers us is in no way a valid exemption. There is no significant difference in the level of detail, and how for instance UNDUE applies here is not clear, esp. since Anything's edits/tweaks do not materially shorten the lead. If the lead is too detailed or whatever, settle it on the talk page; the only question here is whether, for instance, changing "forcible groping or kissing" to "assaulting" is a BLP violation which can legitimately lead to an exemption. I think the answer is no. Drmies (talk) 02:06, 21 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Anything, I'm sorry, but I stand by what I said. If you like I'll modify and change "equate" to something much longer involving "is practically equated to ___ because in many cases the suggestion is that etc." In order to get some sort of exemption you simply have to accept that "sexual assault" was a BLP violation. I don't see that. Drmies (talk) 03:10, 21 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Six months is a long time. I am not sure if Anything has a block/topic ban log, but they're fairly reasonable, and if a topic ban comes to an end and the behavior hasn't improved, a new one is handed out easily enough. So as far as I'm concerned a month, no more than three months, is more than enough. Drmies (talk) 03:26, 21 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • JFG, if you have any good intentions here at all, please don't exaggerate by stating that the lead of his article practically reads "Trump is a notorious racist bigot child molester who is very likely to start World War III over a tweet." Or, if you were trying to be funny, don't. Exaggeration without proof may provide a good soundbite, but it poisons the atmosphere because those claims can't easily be countered. Sound familiar? Drmies (talk) 18:25, 23 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    • JFG, If I took your words more literal than they were intended, which it seems I did, I certainly apologize, and I appreciate your note. Drmies (talk) 15:19, 24 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• I've got to agree with Drmies here. While there is an exemption to revert rules for BLP enforcement, we also have to be mindful that it's easily abused. I think this has crossed over into abuse territory, given the high profile of the sexual assault allegations and their clear backing in reliable sources. Presenting well sourced negative information is not a BLP issue, it's a content decision, and that's subject to revert restrictions like any other content matter. Accordingly, I do believe 1RR was violated here, as these were not reasonable BLP concerns. BLP covers unsourced or poorly sourced content, not well sourced content. That being said, I also do agree with Drmies that any sanction should be a relatively short one, given that the US political season will be over shortly and these areas will likely cool off after that. I'd support a month long topic ban from the subject of Donald Trump, with the expectation that the sanction may be lengthened and/or broadened if issues like this occur again. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 09:41, 21 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• These actions were technically 1RR I suppose, although I think it is defensible (but wrong) to say that they were legitimate per BLP. Either way, it's such a minor thing that under reasonable circumstances a quick discussion on the talkpage should have sorted it out, but partisans on both sides have dug in their
  battleground mentality so hard that that is not going to happen. To be honest, I am in agreement with User:The Blade of the Northern Lights here, and would not object at all to a topic ban for a number of editors on both "sides" of this dispute until at least November 10, at which point it will all hopefully be moot. Lankiveil ^{(speak to me)} 12:00, 21 October 2016 (UTC).[reply
  ]
  • I think six months for a topic ban is excessive, lets try for "until the winner of the election is declared", and see if anyone still wants to carry the flame after that. Lankiveil ^{(speak to me)} 04:00, 23 October 2016 (UTC).[reply]
• This is a case of
  WP:CRYBLP in support of partisan editing by an editor already sanctioned for partisan editing, in an area that is strongly related to one where the editor has a ban already in place. I have great sympathy for the "plague on all their houses" view expressed above, but I think it is also unarguable that this is disruptive and tendentious editing and that a good case could be made for topic-banning Anythingyouwant from American politics until December. Guy (Help!) 12:47, 22 October 2016 (UTC)[reply
  ]
• I don't think these reverts were justified under the BLP exception to 1RR. That exception isn't supposed to be used for people to promote their sides of arguable issues through edit warring. The exact wording that should be used to describe the allegations can of course be discussed, but labelling them as "sexual assault" isn't the kind of clear BLP violation that would justify starting an edit war. Some kind of sanctions on both "sides" until after the presidential election, as suggested above, may be a good idea. Hut 8.5 12:16, 23 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• I was drawn here by this dispute popping up on my watchlist. The points I would make have been made more clearly by folks above: so let me just say that the diffs presented strike me as willful misuse of the BLP exemption. Add to this a clear battleground mentality and an unwillingness to drop the stick, and a topic ban is very much in order. Personally, I do not see the mindset that drives this behavior changing quickly: but perhaps the level of motivation for it will change after the election. A month-long topic ban is the minimum I would suggest. Vanamonde (talk) 13:55, 23 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Clarifying after reading Doug's comment: I, too, mean a topic-ban from post 1932 US politics. Vanamonde (talk) 05:32, 24 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• I'm with Vanamonde here. At one point I was thinking "a plague on both your houses", but I've changed my mind in the light of various comments above. I'd support a topic ban for Anythingyouwant - not just until November 10th however. At least until the losing candidate concedes or December if the loser does not concede. Doug Weller talk 16:01, 23 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Clarifying my comment, I mean a ban from American politics post 1932, not just Trump. Doug Weller talk 17:56, 23 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• I've recovered from the ennui recorded in my original post and read up. Like the other admins commenting in "Anythingyouwant 1" higher up on this page,[39] I thought Anythingyouwant did the right thing in removing a clear BLP vio (accusations of "rape and child rape") from the lead of Donald Trump. The reverts in this present report are something else, and I agree with Vanamonde that they show a battleground attitude on one of the Wikipedia pages that least need it. Agree with a topic ban from American politics for Anythingyouwant. I like Doug Weller's careful formulation: "at least until the losing candidate concedes or December if the loser does not concede", but I'll support any proposed ban length up to three months. I don't support any kind of 'ban the lot and let god sort 'em out' solution here. Too radical, and not fair. Bishonen | talk 17:40, 23 October 2016 (UTC).[reply]
• I don't exactly agree with many of compatriots here, at least in part. I think Anything needs to be sent back with clear instructions that "sexual assault" is not synonymous with rape, but I've lived all over the US, and in many places, it is. In many texts it is. We can't escape that. That doesn't mean we are bound to that standard here, but it does offer some explanation. As for CRYBLP, most people editing these articles do have a strong bias one way or another. These political articles are already a handful, the last thing I want to do is affect the balance by topic banning someone under these circumstances. I prefer a warning and instruction to read the advice herein, and accept the consensus view on that phrase. This madness will be over soon enough, but not soon enough. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 00:25, 25 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• @The Blade of the Northern Lights, Bishonen, Drmies, Doug Weller, Dennis Brown, JzG, Lankiveil, and Seraphimblade: This has been open a while, and there does not appear to be much further discussion happening. I don't think it is fair to either the filing party or the respondent to leave it open further. I am not seeing a clear consensus here, but there does seem to be general support for a topic ban from US politics until the election is over the losing candidate concedes the election. Is this something we can agree upon? If no objections are raised, I'm inclined to close it as such in the next 24 hours. Regards, Vanamonde (talk) 14:06, 26 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • It's certainly ripe for closing, but there have been a number of suggestions for a longer ban than just until the election is over. I recommend you phrase the ban per Doug Weller's suggestion: topic banned from American politics post 1932 until the losing candidate concedes or December if the loser does not concede. I know it's far-fetched... but we really don't want to have to start this over again if there's, well, unrest after the election. Bishonen | talk 14:16, 26 October 2016 (UTC).[reply]
    • That is a good point, and was one of the reasons I suggested a minimum of three months. I will amend my wording: I don't anticipate anybody objecting to the amendment if they were okay with the original. Vanamonde (talk) 15:47, 26 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
      • Obviously it isn't my preference, but if we must, the narrower and shorter the better. Anything past Dec 1 or the loser conceding (which ever happens first) would be excessive and go beyond the actual problem. I trust Anything already gets the point, so it seems unnecessary considering the vitriol on both sides of the isle. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 20:38, 26 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
        • I concur we seem to have broad agreement here; my preference for ban length is still as above, but I wouldn't be tremendously upset by three months. Lankiveil ^{(speak to me)} 23:33, 26 October 2016 (UTC).[reply]
          • @Dennis Brown: I personally do not think we should add an escape clause if one of the candidates does not concede. Unless a concession happens, this is liable to continue to be a highly visible/disputed area, and the reasons for the ban remain unaltered. In the unusual situation that a candidate does not concede but the election is actually considered "over" and the disputes die down, it can be lifted by one of us. Vanamonde (talk) 03:28, 27 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
            • • Once the votes are simply cast, does any of this matter? Is the likelihood of problems not go down? I think Dec 1 is more than enough if someone doesn't concede. Only time in my long lifetime this didn't happen by Dec. 1 was in 2000. I think we are overthinking this, and still think it is unnecessary to begin with. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 06:19, 27 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
                • That was however a very, very different situation, with a mandatory recount in one state and various litigation. Once that was over Gore conceded. It would have been foolish of anyone to concede earlier then. Doug Weller talk 06:50, 27 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Wecarlisle

User who is submitting this request for enforcement

EvergreenFir (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 04:50, 28 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

User against whom enforcement is requested

Wecarlisle (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced

WP:ARBAP2 and active arbitration remedies on Donald Trump sexual misconduct allegations

1. 22:42, 27 October 2016 added content about Jane Doe
2. 02:09, 28 October 2016 undid removal
3. 04:23, 28 October 2016 added info again
4. 04:36, 28 October 2016 added info again

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

If

WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts

)

• Alerted about discretionary sanctions in the area of conflict in the last twelve months, see the system log linked to above. Given before last linked edit.
• Edit notices about active remedies on page visible to all who edit page

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

diff

Discussion concerning Wecarlisle

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Wecarlisle

Statement by (username)

Statement by Mandruss

I posted this on their user talk page 47 minutes before item 2 above. Seems very straightforward.

• Blocked without reference to discretionary sanctions. I agree with Mandruss. Also, to post a discretionary sanctions alert on the user and then take them to this board a mere 15 minutes later is not ideal, EvergreenFir. Therefore, I have given Wecarlisle an ordinary block, which does not invoke discretionary sanctions, for 72 hours for disruptive editing and edit warring. Bishonen | talk 10:37, 28 October 2016 (UTC).[reply]

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning EtienneDolet

User who is submitting this request for enforcement

LouisAragon (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 12:50, 27 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

User against whom enforcement is requested

EtienneDolet (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

1. [40] (Hyrudagon is Steverci's CU blocked sockpuppet here)
2. [41] (idem)
3. [42] (idem)
4. [43] (idem)
5. [44] (Lasort101 is Steverci's CU blocked sockpuppet here)
6. [45] (idem)
7. [46] (idem)
8. [47] (idem)
9. [48] (idem)

Wikihouding

1. [49]
2. [50]
3. [51]
4. [52]
5. [53]
6. [54]

Blatantly removing sources + quotes + sourced content

1. [55] (sources removed; Babaie, Grigor (2015), Allsen, Thomas T. (2011), Sartre, Maurice (2015), Garsoian (2005)
2. [56]
3. [57]
4. [58]
5. [59]
6. [60]

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

1. As far as I can see, no previous sanctions, but numerous warnings were given by numerous editors for his editorial pattern throughout the time.

If

WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts

)

Apparantly hasn't (?) received one in the past 12 months, but he posted one himself on someone else's talk page just some days ago, so I believe that he's still aware of them.

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

The merits are thus mainly based on, but not limited to;

• The EtienneDolet - Steverci alliance. -- EtienneDolet has a well-recorded history of backing up and protecting
  WP:NOTHERE
  editing by EtienneDolet. Regardless of how "good" or "bad" the edits by the sockmaster + socks in question are.

• Wikihouding. After I questioned a WP at VillagePump, which EtienneDolet seemed/seems very particularly fond of to cite every single time in order to get the lede revision he wants, and solely in Armenia-related articles mind you,[62][63][64][65][66] no less than 10 out of the 12 edits he made on articles afterwards were to revert various edits of mine.[67][68][69][70][71][72][73][74][75][76] Notice furthermore that out of all these articles, literally none were never even touched (!) by EtienneDolet before, in the span of all these years that his account is registered on Wikipedia. And as one can see, most of these WP:Wikihound edits were complete reinstatements of edits made by, once again Steverci (!). More Wikihouding "sprees" can be seen here, on 28 January 2016, where he wrongly accused me of making "copyright violations" and here a few minutes later, here a few hours later as well. The so-called "source" EtienneDolet linked in these three edit summaries, from which I "supposedly" copied from, is in fact a Wikipedia mirror.

• Blatantly removing sourced content, or simply removing clear
  WP:RS
  sources in general (often with unjustified edit summaries). See above.

• More
  tendentious editing in his niche, namely Armenia-related articles. That even though the WP literally states that"; "These are advice, intended to guide, not force, consensus; but they are the consensus of actual experience in move discussions."[82]

It is very easy to make good edits on low-profile articles, as they say. It is also very easy to make bad ones, to POV-push deliberately, to knowingly follow an "unjust" agenda (e.g. protecting socks, removing sources by illegitimate means). I think the Steverci-EtienneDolet alliance™, as illustrated above, speaks on itself. Imagine you combine such a pattern with "nice words", a pretty polite overal behaviour as well, and write in proper English; you can actually get quite far and remain unnoticed. - LouisAragon (talk) 15:00, 27 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

[83]

"Steverci was a disruptive user and his/her socks have continued that path. I would never advocate replicating that user's behavior on this project."

-- Yet there's substantial evidence that you've been backing him up on plenty of talk pages, in AE cases against him, and have been fully reinstating many of his edits (even by the means of edit-warring, e.g.[84]).

"A lot of these diffs are really old"

-- The vast majority of them are just several months old, and are of the year 2016. Furthermore, just for a comparison, I didn't see you bothering about "old diffs" in the case above this one, where you posted numerous diffs of matters of the year 2015, and/or matters that were already dealt with.

"So there's times that these articles show up on my watchlist and I do revert to more neutral and improved versions, whether or not they are disruptive socks."

-- Yeah, that'd be a believable story, if only any of the articles where you reinstated this sockmasters' edits actually had been edited by you in the past...nine years that your account is registrated here. Before the sockmaster + his legio socks edited them, that is. - LouisAragon (talk) 01:12, 29 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion concerning EtienneDolet

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by EtienneDolet

Steverci was a disruptive user and his/her socks have continued that path. I would never advocate replicating that user's behavior on this project. However, I believe some of the edits that the socks have made actually improved these articles. A lot of these diffs are really old, so I will comment upon some of the recent stuff. LouisAragon's recent diffs involves him restoring text that uses the word "terrorist group" to describe ASALA. Now, I do believe that LouisAragaon made this edit in good faith when dealing with a sock, but the sock was right in removing that word (per

Any editor can take ownership of a blocked editor's deleted posts by reinstating them. It is not a sanctionable act. I do not support the removal of posts made by socks just because they were made by socks. I think the actual value of the material needs to be examined first. Looking back, I find many of Steverci's edits, and those of his presumed socks Oatitonimly, etc., to be reasonable - so it is not unexpected that another editor would reinstate them if the only reason they were removed was for SP reasons. LouisAragon definitely has been deleting content for SP reasons alone, resulting in good content being deleted and seriously bad content being restored, such as here [85]. There is no inverted commas Armenian Genocide controversy, and such terminology is an inadmissible euphemism for denial of the Armenian Genocide. I fully support EtienneDolet's edit there and I would have done exactly the same. This edit removed an edit by SP Hyrudagon [86] but the removal added a load of nonsense. Pharasmanes I was not a king of Georgia, there is no such thing as "Georgian paganism", Iberia is not Georgia, and the writings of Tacitius are not equivalent to those of modern-era historians when deciding on events. I fully support EtienneDolet's edit there [87] and I would have done exactly the same.

I am also no fan of a flippant claiming of wikihounding; it distorts the actual meaning of Wikihounding. Both these editors edit in the same subject areas so they can be expected to come into contact. Despite the views of Drmies (who has encouraged and even prompted such distortions), there is nothing wrong in looking at editing histories to see where active editing is going on, and then going there. Doing it is not wikihounding. Every now and again I look at the editing histories of both LouisAragon and EtienneDolet - which is why I know about this case. Editing histories are public - anyone who doesn't like that shouldn't edit. I don't think anything EtienneDolet has done comes anywhere even close to the definitions or characteristics of Wikihounding. In other words, two out of the three diff sections set down by LouisAragon in his complaint are listing edits that actually did not break any policies. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 18:59, 27 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Drmies, no wrong name was typed. You are on record as saying that following another editor's edits and from that information then editing an article they have edited equates to wikihounding. You did it on my own talk page, so I should know. No such behavior is actually cited as equating to wikihounding on WP:hounding, so your viewpoint is a distortion of the definition of wikihounding. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 02:16, 28 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Athenean

I agree with Tiptoe's assessment of the situation. I don't see anything objectionable in the diffs. A certain amount of contact is to be expected between editors whose interests overlap, but EtienneDolet is careful not to edit-war. Moreover the diffs are stale and the issues raised have been dealt in the past. On the other hand, I find an admin taunting someone they have blocked in the past about their block extremely unbecoming. Made worse that it is done at a

• Tiptoethrutheminefield, eh? Are you sure you didn't type in the wrong name? If not, you want to reread NPA and stuff like that. Just a thought. Drmies (talk) 22:38, 27 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Well, a. that's a lie or at the very least a distortion and b. that has nothing to do with any of this. You thought you could get a shot in but you're only devaluing your statements here. But I see now where this comes from: your block log, which features such beauties as blocks for harassment and edit warring. No wonder you are trying to devalue these alleged offenses: it makes you look better. I had totally forgotten about that, but I guess you haven't. Drmies (talk) 17:40, 28 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Appealing user

Md iet (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) – Md iet (talk) 04:46, 18 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Sanction being appealed

Topic ban from the subject of Dawoodi Bohra, imposed at this WP:AN3 complaint.

Administrator imposing the sanction

EdJohnston (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)

Notification of that administrator

The appealing editor is asked to notify the administrator who made the enforcement action of this appeal, and then to replace this text with a

diff

of that notification. The appeal may not be processed otherwise. If a block is appealed, the editor moving the appeal to this board should make the notification.

Statement by Md iet

Due to above ban I indirectly helped others on the subject and got blocked indefinitely. I realized my fault later and pardoned(

The articles mentioned by Adamfinmo are general articles covering all Islam/ Taiyabi Ismaili. During discussion of lifting my block it was clearly mentioned that banning me of general Islam topics would be impropriate. Please analyze the specific edit mentioned. These are not affecting any status cu of Dawoodi Bohra topics rather than helping Wikipedia users get properly directed/not get mislead. Information corrected was misleading in one case. The person

Mohammad Burhanuddin already dead was presented as live. This I felt not proper of Wikipedia. In the second case, it was just like spelling correction, only [[..]] bracket was added to felicitate reader further. --Md iet (talk) 03:25, 19 October 2016 (UTC)[reply

]

Thanks User:EdJohnston, for your support helping my intentions contribute Wikipedia. Declaring one of the claimants victorious was one of the case because of which I got banned. This was the case of not understanding difference between actual correct v/s encyclopedic correct. I feel after this long episode I have better understanding and in position to assure nonrepeating similar blunders. --Md iet (talk) 03:23, 27 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by EdJohnston

I would support relaxing the ban to allow

Per the encouragement by others in the Result section, I am now modifying

WP:DSLOG to say that it is only from *articles* regarding the Dawoodi Bohra. From now on he can edit any other pages that mention Dawoodi Bohra, including talk pages. I trust this will allow another admin to close this appeal with no further action. I can't close it myself since it's an appeal of my ban. EdJohnston (talk) 20:45, 28 October 2016 (UTC)[reply

]

It is worth noting that Md iet, has edited in on the topic of Dawoodi Bohra at least twice recently, that I could see. diff, diff.--Adam in MO Talk 02:51, 19 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not an administrator, nor am I involved in any way with this editor or the topic space. I'm concerned that this editor has repeatedly edited in direct violation of their topic ban, multiple times, and very recently. The were explicitly instructed: "You will not edit any articles which relate to Dawoodi Bohra, even distantly." They acknowledged that they understood this and still made repeated edits to the Islam in India article. --Adam in MO Talk 21:53, 21 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by (involved editor 2)

Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by Md iet

Result of the appeal by Md iet

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

• Since the sanctioning admin EdJohnston is in favor of another chance, I think we ought to give one. Theoretically, he could just relax the sanction himself, since he imposed it, and I certainly see no reason to override his judgment. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 02:28, 20 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• Concur with the above and with EdJohnston's terms. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 21:51, 20 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• I have no issue with EdJohnston's suggestion, but the two diffs showing he has actually broken the ban at least twice, albeit with small edits, should be noted. The topic ban on articles still stands, and if he edits another article directly this way, he will be fully banned again. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 22:55, 20 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• This is getting stale. I recommend EdJohnston modify the sanction himself. This doesn't require consensus or consent at AE but he has it. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 11:04, 28 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• EdJohnston, if you don't mind, just go for it--I agree with the others. There's always something satisfying about modifying/lessening something one imposed; it confirms a kind of optimism. Thanks, Drmies (talk) 15:30, 29 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning LouisAragon

User who is submitting this request for enforcement

EtienneDolet (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 04:14, 27 October 2016 (UTC)[reply

]

User against whom enforcement is requested

LouisAragon (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced

WP:AA2

Diffs

of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

Removal of Armenian content, POV pushing, and edit-warring

1. 30 December 2015 says an Armenian name is of Persian origin with no source and removes Armenian language name (I provided these old diffs to show a long pattern lasting 1 year now)
2. 24 February 2016 removes Armenian language name claiming it wasn't part of ancient Armenia, even though the article says it was historically inhabited by Armenians
3. 22 August 2016 removes Armenian language and background from dynasty that ruled Armenia, along with source for it
4. 22 August 2016 removes relevant Armenian category for no given reason
5. 2 September 2016 removes links to Armenians article with no talk or consensus
6. 5 September 2016 places the Persian name first. Pretty nasty edit-summary too.
7. 8 September 2016 removes Armenian name and replaces it with Persian, even though it's located in Armenia.
8. 10 September 2016 removes all those named Yervand (Armenian version of Orontes) at the Yervand article
9. 11 September 2016 removes Armenian language name and any mention of Armenia from lead
10. 11 September 2016 removes an academic source saying dynasty origins are unknown and could be Armenian and/or Iranian, then nitpicks a source that says only Iranian, then deleting the rest
11. 11 September 2016 removes Armenian language and Armenian name
12. 11 September 2016 Same as above.
13. 11 September 2016 Same as above.
14. 11 September 2016 Same as above.
15. 11 September 2016 Same as above.
16. 11 September 2016 Same as above.
17. 8 October 2016 edit-warring over moving the Armenian name to the end. Edit-wars to maintain his edit and doesn't go to the TP [88][89]
18. 12 October 2016 removes Armenian language at Urartu article. Replaces it with Persian.

If

WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts

)

1. 9 December 2015 by Callanecc (talk · contribs)

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

LouisAragon has been pushing a Persian nationalist POV for quite some time now. When editing Armenian articles, LouisAragon often removes the Armenian foreign language alternate name and replaces it with Persian. When he simply can't do that, he places Armenian as the last language mentioned. When it comes to Iran's neighborhood, it is Iran that comes first, even if there's not much relevance to Iranian culture today. Take for example the edits at Urartu. LouisAragon removes the Armenian name, replaces it with Persian, even though there's absolutely no indication in the article about Urartu's significance to modern day Iranian culture and identity. Yet, on the other hand, there's entire sections devoted to Urartu's notable role in the development of Armenian culture, language, kingdoms, and its identity at large. Yet, it's Armenian that gets removed. This is a repeated pattern in almost every Armenian article he touches. I must also add that it's not limited to Armenia. Azerbaijani and Kurdish (as far as I can see) articles suffer a similar fate. Stuff like this is deeply concerning (i.e. removing the Kurdish alternate name of a province named Kurdistan). I mean, in other words, if we are to leave LouisAragon to his own devices, I'm afraid articles pertaining to countries that neighbor Iran or have a shared history with Iranians would be forced to conform to the will of this user's apparent pro-Iranian POV.

I must add that this pattern is an old one. His edits on AA2 articles prior to his warning show a clear resemblance to his edits above, such as the removal of any mention of Armenians as European ([90][91][92][93][94][95][96][97]) and attempting to turn Armenian kings into Iranian ([98][99][100][101][102][103]), the latter being reminiscent of his recent edits on Armenian king articles. LouisAragon had also made several tongue in cheek personal insults such as Incompetent pov pushers, fanboy, POV pusher, incompetent people, and ignorant. It's an all too familiar pattern that shouldn't be ignored anymore. I think strictures are necessary.

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

[104]

Yes, I believe LouisAragon is POV pushing when it comes to simple issues like foreign language transliterations. Never in my 10 years of editing Wikipedia have I heard a user remove a foreign language alternate name because that "language wasn't spoken back then" or that "that language wasn't the territory's official language" or that "Armenia/Azerbaijan/Kurdistan didn't exist", which is exactly what LouisAragaon has been saying, even in his defense at this very forum. Where does LouisAragaon come up with these rules? This in no way reflects Wikipedia policy guidelines and hence, it is nothing but clear-cut POV editing. These are rules LouisAragon, and only LouisAragon, has contrived for himself, and expects everyone else to board his ship. And this has been going on for years now.

And can an admin look into

Étienne Dolet (talk) 17:35, 28 October 2016 (UTC)[reply

]

Étienne Dolet (talk) 19:21, 28 October 2016 (UTC)[reply

]

Two editors? It's the same editor! Yet, that editor does not condone the removal of any Armenian transliterations, which is why we're here. Now you can add any language you'd like (as long as you can get the consensus for it), but removing Armenian under pretenses that only you appear to represent is disruptive and hasn't warranted any praise thus far.

Étienne Dolet (talk) 01:23, 29 October 2016 (UTC)[reply

]

@

civil

discourse for quite some time now.

P.S. Regardless of all this, I've always had a strong respect for you Kansas Bear, since the wild

Étienne Dolet (talk) 02:18, 30 October 2016 (UTC)[reply

]

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by LouisAragon

1) "removes Armenian language name claiming it wasn't part of ancient Armenia, even though the article says it was historically inhabited by Armenians"
-- the article, nor the sources state that it was a historic part of Armenia. Many peoples inhabited various places in history, and many empires and kingdoms once ruled areas that are now located far away from their modern day successor states, and that doesn't necessarily mean that these transliterations need to be added. Furthermore, the user(s) added it without any edit summary, explanation, or whatsoever.[109][110]

2) "removes Armenian language and background from dynasty that ruled Armenia, along with source for it"
-- the burden is on you to prove that the

3) "removes relevant Armenian category for no given reason"
-- Let's see what the article states; "The city was formerly known as Armenopolis[2] (Armenian: Հայաքաղաք Hayakaghak; German: Armenierstadt; Hungarian: Örményváros) because it was populated by Armenians." That means its not a diaspora community anymore. The 2011 census, linked on the page itself, doesn't even mention a single thing about it, e.g. any number of Armenians. On top of that, the two sources in question (Mallows, Lucy (2008). Transylvania. Chalfont St. Peter: Bradt Travel Guides. p. 256.

4) "removes links to Armenians article with no talk or consensus"
-- Most reliable sources, many of which you blatantly deleted on the eponymous article, without any reason,[111] e.g.;

• Babaie, Sussan; Grigor; Talinn. Persian Kingship and Architecture: Strategies of Power in Iran from the Achaemenids to the Pahlavis. 2015. I.B.Tauris.
  ISBN 978-1848857513
  . p 80. Iranian culture deeply influenced Armenia, and Iranian dynasties ruled Armenia during several important periods, including the Orontids (c. sixth century - c. early second century BCE) and Arsacids (54-428 CE).;
• TIGRAN II; Garsoian, N.; Encyclopaedia Iranica. 2005. ;Tigran (Tigranes) II was the most distinguished member of the so-called Artašēsid/Artaxiad dynasty, which has now been identified as a branch of the earlier Eruandid [Orontid] dynasty of Iranian origin attested as ruling in Armenia from at least the 5th century B.C.E.;
• Allsen, Thomas T. The Royal Hunt in Eurasian History. 2011. University of Pennsylvania Press.
  ISBN 978-0812201079
  . p. 37; "The Orontid dynasty of Armenia (ca. 401-200), whose ruling house was of Achaemenid origin, originally administered the territory as satraps and later as independent kings."
• Sartre, Maurice. The Middle East Under Rome. 2005. Harvard University Press.
  WP:NPOV
  .

6) "Take for example the edits at Urartu. LouisAragon removes the Armenian name, replaces it with Persian."
-- Nice erroneous portrayal of what actually happened. I made a talk page section on September 11 2016, questioning the legitimacy of the modern Armenian name of an entity that existed in antiquity that did not use the

7) "places the Persian name first. Pretty nasty edit-summary too."
-- It was the official language in the province, as in the rest of the realm/empire. Armenian was not the official language, nor was it established by Armenians. Furthermore, it wasn't the first time that said user randomly changed the order of the languages on the page, without an edit summary.[113]-[114]. WP:NCGN literally states; These are advice, intended to guide, not force, consensus So to mis-cite that WP over and over in order to "secure" a certain "niche" of articles, is just disruptive at best. Lastly, there's another user disagreeing with EtienneDolet's "WP:NCGN-mantra" as well, as we can see here on the talk page.

8) "removes Armenian name and replaces it with Persian, even though it's located in Armenia."
-- Wow. It was a battle between the

9) " removes all those named Yervand (Armenian version of Orontes) at the Yervand article."
-- I explicitly stated in my edit summary, that, logically seen, everything regarding "Orontes" should belong on the "Orontes" article. However, I didn't notice the part where it said that "Yervand" is the Armenian transliteration of Orontes. Hence, I also obviously didn't contest the (rightful) revert.

10) "removes Armenian language name and any mention of Armenia from lead"
-- I know you're at pains regarding this, but the Armenian language was first attested (written) in the 5th century AD. The Armenian language written in that script which I removed did not exist at the time (2nd century BC). If it did, the burden is on you to provide references for that, as you're the one who contests it (funny enough not even on the talk page, but just here on Arbcom). Regarding the removal of the link to "Armenians" in the lede; as explicitly demonstrated in the Arbcom topic down below, and above, the majority of the sources do not agree that the Orontids were ethnically Armenian. To the admins here; its interesting EtienneDolet points out whatever edit that he's

11) "removes an academic source saying dynasty origins are unknown and could be Armenian and/or Iranian, then nitpicks a source that says only Iranian, then deleting the rest"
-- I added three additional reliable sources that back this up. The revision before I even edited that section literally shows that there were only three. You added 5 more sources to it, and then claim here as if I deleted all of those. What a joke, and I will demonstrate it here;

16 July 2016 (before I edited that part);

"Little is known about the origins of the Orontid dynasty.[5] Some historians believe that the Orontid kings were of Urartian origin.[6]^{[failed verification]} Other historians, however, believe the dynasty may have been of Iranian origin.[7]"

18 October 2016 (what EtienneDolet changed it to, and removed numerous of its sources, and added numerous new/other sources to it);

"Little is known about the origins of the Orontid dynasty.[4][5][6] Some historians believe that the Orontid kings were of Armenian or Urartian origin.[4][7][6] In addition, historians believe the dynasty may have had Iranian origin through a possible relation to the Achaemenids, either through marriage or blood.[4][8]"

12) "removes Armenian language and Armenian name"
-- There was no Armenian language at that time written in that script. That script was formed some 1,000 years later ,and thus it implies anachronism. If it was used during that time, the burden is on you to prove it. The same argument goes for the other five diffs posted. It is simply totally anachronistic, and thus does not belong there.

13) "edit-warring over moving the Armenian name to the end. Edit-wars to maintain his edit and doesn't go to the TP"
-- You randomly hopped in and changed the order of the languages, using

14) "Indefinitely blocked twice previously, despite getting unblocked per WP:ROPE the first time"
-- LMFAO! Those blocks were due to the verifiable fact that I was blocked due to an admins fault.[119] I was blocked on the erroneous assumption of being the same person who apparantly lives/lived on the other side of the world. Hence, I was promptly unblocked when this was brought to the light, and it was even added as an admin note on numerous places, and I have it in my email as well. Other than this mistake, I was never ever blocked.

15) [120]
-- No such consensus was ever agreed to include Armenia, a country geographically fully in Asia, (even the

15) [121]
-- Same IP as above edit-warring without edit summary, and ignoring the talk page section which I created.

16) [122]
-- Anatolia is geographically fully in Asia. Shocking, eh?

17) [123]
-- Same IP, cross-article edit-warring and ignoring the talk page.

18) [124]
-- Same user, continuously ignored the talk page of the article in question (a section which I had made),[125] as well as on his own talk page (which I had made as well).[126]

19) "and attempting to turn Armenian kings into Iranian"
-- I think this sentence really stipulates EtienneDolet's credo and overal editorial pattern very well, emphasizing on the word "attempt". One is not allowed to edit his precious Armenia-related articles, and definetely not as well if they're backed up by

• Pourshariati, Parvaneh. Decline and fall of the Sasanian empire: the Sasanian-Parthian confederacy and the Arab conquest of Iran (2008). I.B. Tauris in association with the Iran Heritage Foundation.
  ISBN 978-1845116453
  . p. 44. "Armenian Arsacids continued to claim to be the champions of Iranian legitimacy. (...)";
• Sigfried J. de Laet & Joachim Herrmann. History of Humanity: From the seventh century B.C. to the seventh century A.D. (1996). UNESCO.
  ISBN 978-9231028120. page 128. "(...) Tiridates [I], the brother of the ruler of Parthia
  and the founder of the dynasty of the Armenian Arsacids. (...)";
• Toumanoff, Cyrill. Studies in Christian Caucasian history (Armenian Research Center collection) (1963). Georgetown University Press. "(...) the impact of the Parthian empire of the Arsacid Dynasty, of which the Armenian royal house was a branch. (...)";
• Bowman, et al. The Cambridge Ancient History (Vol. 12; The Crisis of Empire, AD 193-337) (2005). Cambridge University Press: Cambridge.
  ISBN 978-0521301992
  . p. 484. chapter=Armenia and the eastern marches. "(...) a new dynasty was established on the Armenian throne, that of the Arsacids, a branch of the Parthian royal house."
• Garsoian, Nina (2004). "ARMENO-IRANIAN RELATIONS in the pre-Islamic period". Encyclopaedia Iranica. "Except for the occasional princes imposed by the Romans, none of whom succeeded in consolidating himself on the throne, all the dynasties to rule pre-Islamic Armenia were of Iranian stock."
• Russel, James R. Armenian and Iranian Studies (2004). Department of Near Eastern Languages and Civilizations, Harvard University. pp 3, 704, 881. "(...) A branch of the Arsacid dynasty survived in Armenia for two centuries after the extinction of Parthian rule in Iran itself.";
• Whittow, Mark. The Making of Byzantium, 600-1025. University of California Press.
  Arsacid dynasty
  , a junior branch of the then Persian royal house.";
• Erdkamp, Paul. A Companion to the Roman Army (2011). John Wiley & Sons.
  Arsacid dynasty
  (...).";
• Viator: Medieval and Renaissance Studies, Volume 1 (1970). University of California Press.
  ISBN 978-0520017023
  . p. 269. "Arshakuni is the name of the Parhian Arsacid dynasty, a branch of which ruled in Armenia from A.D. 54 to 428."

Regarding these diffs (Incompetent pov pushers, fanboy, POV pusher, incompetent people, and ignorant), they were perhaps a tad over the top as a referral, I will admit, and it was definetely not correct of me. However, the first four were directed towards a

"These are rules LouisAragon, and only LouisAragon, has contrived for himself."

-- Wrong. Again. You have two editors here basically agreeing with my stance as well. On top of the two talk pages in question.[129][130] They are not "rules", they are logical stances, which are maintained throughout many articles on Wikipedia that are, quality-wise in a good state, such as the

good faith, to improve heavily POV-loaded but low-profile articles especially pertaining to "Armenia" in an effort to improve them content-wise.
Throughout the time, I have created numerous history-related articles pertaining to Armenia. I have drastically expanded/rewritten numerous Armenia-related articles, and I have numerous Armenia-related articles on my watchlist where I perform anti-vandalism work every now and then. Yet this user tries to portray me as some kind of "anti-Armenian" editor, which is ridiculous at best. - LouisAragon (talk) 01:12, 29 October 2016 (UTC)[reply

]

I don't see justification for a claim that "LouisAragon has been pushing a Persian nationalist POV for quite some time now". In fact I would find it hard to believe accusations of sustained deliberate pov editing aims against either editor, and am disturbed that either editor would seriously want the other sanctioned. BTW, here is an example of LouisAragon doing the exact opposite of what a "Persian nationalist POV" would perhaps want [[131]], deleting material that argues to mention populations outside of Persia. I wish the issue of alternative names was clearer in Wikipedia article policies, it's going to always be a conflict-initiating issue until it is made clearer. I think both editors have become a bit careless with their editing and their reverting and their lack of use of talk on articles that they both know attract pov edit warring - they can get away with doing this when it just concerns pov editors, but not when it involves the two of them because each would naturally expect more consideration and respect. For example, EtienneDolet brings up the issue of LouisAragon's edit here [132], LouisAragon, in his point 9, says he did not contest its revert and essentially says he did the original edit without properly reading the content. It shows carelessness, and the result of that carelessness was edit warring by pov IP editors who continued to repeat [133], [134], [135] the edit made by LouisAragon. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 20:00, 27 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

EtienneDolet writes "1. Indefinitely blocked twice previously, despite getting unblocked per WP:ROPE the first time". Out of curiosity I looked into this. What I found was a disapointing (but not that unusual) display of administrator incompetence and arrogance and attempts to hide that incompetence and arrogance. I offer my condolences to LouisAragon for having to go through all that - I am surprised he stuck with Wikipedia after such sustained injustice. To be blocked as a sock puppet for no reason or investigation, to eventually be unblocked with wording that allowed administrators to admit to doing no wrong, to see that same wording later used as a way to impose yet another unjust block, to see the attempts at showing that unjustness misused as a way to make the block permanent, is all a bit of a horror story. EtienneDolet should also look into the events of those two blocks, and after doing that he will, I hope, immediately strike out the comment related to those blocks. The Arbitration Committee/Ban Appeals Subcommittee that lifted LouisAragon's block acknowledged that he was not related to the editor he had been blocked for being a sockpuppet of. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 21:08, 27 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

And I see one of the administrators involved boasting "Users blocked: 13959"! Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 21:15, 27 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Cplakidas

I second

• "Incompetent pov pushers", November 2015, directed at Steverci, which later is stated by Callanecc, "The evidence on my talk page (along with what I've seen from some of the IPs you've been using) shows POV editing. After coming off a topic ban I would expect that you'd ensure your editing was as good as it can be and I'm just not seeing that."[136]
• "fanboy", October 2015, again concerning Steverci.
• "POV pusher", November 2015, again concerning Steverci, even Callanec calls his editing POV editing.
• "Incompetent peoples, November 2015, again concerning Steverci. According to Alex2006, "Hallo Louis, this guy (who is banned from editing articles about Armenia) did not even read the paper. At page 4 (2.1), it states that Armenia is European in each aspect, except geographically, and later ask the people to live with this aspect."[137]
• "Ignorant", according to the edit summary, "removed per feigned ignorance of the adder (Eupator) and numerous attempts to have it discussed which he ignored and never backed up his claims with sources".[138] This shows that LA states Eupator "feigned ignorance", I see nothing showing LA saying Eupator was "ignorant".

I am curious. What is this really about? Restoring Steverci's(including socks) edits? Getting revenge for LA's comments about Steverci? It would appear to be more about Steverci's edits, LouisAragon's opinion of Steverci, and the continuing the edit warring POV Steverci and his sockpuppets started.

Just an FYI, on the usage of non-historians(Todd B. Krause, John A.C. Greppin, and Jonathan Slocum are linguists not historians) to push a POV, isn't this exactly what EtienneDolet is accusing LouisAragon of doing?[139] Sorry, but why should 3 linguists be given more weight than N. Garosian(Phd. Medieval history) and Richard G. Hovannisian(Phd History, professor emeritus at the University of California), and then call it "Restoring neutral version. Many historians emphasize that the origins of the Orontid dynasty is unclear."? Such editing is quite disingenuous. --Kansas Bear (talk) 23:08, 29 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by (username)

Result concerning LouisAragon

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

• This looks to me like a content dispute, which we do not decide at AE. If the two of you disagree about whether something belongs in an article, that's why we have talk pages and, failing ability to come to agreement between you there,
  request for comments to have some previously uninvolved editors look at the situation. If there are behavioral issues here, please highlight just those without continuing the content dispute here, otherwise they get lost in the noise. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 17:38, 28 October 2016 (UTC)[reply
  ]
• This is similar to the one I closed below, more heat than light and a content dispute at the core, one that needs an RFC. If someone does something you don't like, the place to start is the talk page, calmly. I recommend closing as primarily a content dispute and editors to start RFCs on these key points of contention. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 13:30, 30 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]