Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/All old discussions
This is a list of all open CfD discussions more than seven days old. It is maintained by a bot.
April 22
Category:Fictional characters by political orientation
- Nominator's rationale: split, this category is confusing in its current implementation, it contains fictional anarchists, monarchists, nationalists and socialists on the one hand (by political orientation, not activists) and environmentalists, advocates of women's rights and pacifists on the other hand (activists, not political orientation). These are very different things. Marcocapelle (talk) 19:45, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose, I don't think this is necessary. And are you really sure that environmentalism and feminism not specific political ideologies/movements? AHI-3000 (talk) 21:26, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
- They are primarily social movements and certainly not a political orientation like socialism. In relationship to politics they have only one issue on their agenda and their target audience is the entire political spectrum, not one ideology. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:16, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
- Well if you take a look at Category:People by political orientation, Category:Feminists and Category:Pacifists are listed as subcategories. Anyways it's still not necessary to split up these categories in any way, they're not even too large. AHI-3000 (talk) 17:22, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
- It isn't a matter of size, it is a matter of plain wrong. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:24, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
- Well if you take a look at Category:People by political orientation, Category:Feminists and Category:Pacifists are listed as subcategories. Anyways it's still not necessary to split up these categories in any way, they're not even too large. AHI-3000 (talk) 17:22, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
- They are primarily social movements and certainly not a political orientation like socialism. In relationship to politics they have only one issue on their agenda and their target audience is the entire political spectrum, not one ideology. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:16, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose, I don't think this is necessary. And are you really sure that environmentalism and feminism not specific political ideologies/movements? AHI-3000 (talk) 21:26, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, HouseBlaster (talk · he/him) 16:01, 15 April 2024 (UTC)Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Toadette (Let's talk together!) 22:37, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
Category:Scholars of Greek language
- Propose renaming Category:Scholars of Greek language to Category:Linguists of Greek
- Propose renaming Category:Scholars of Mycenaean Greek to Category:Linguists of Mycenaean Greek
- Propose renaming Category:Scholars of Medieval Greek to Category:Linguists of Medieval Greek
- Propose renaming Category:Scholars of Koine Greek to Category:Linguists of Koine Greek
- Propose renaming Category:Scholars of Ancient Greek to Category:Linguists of Ancient Greek
- Nominator's rationale: WP:C2C. Uncles/aunts in Category:Linguists by language of studyare all named
Linguists of Fooian
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Copy of speedy discussion
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- Purge and rename, there are some non-linguists e.g. Byzantinists and New Testament scholars in these categories, but that does not match with the clearly linguistic purpose of these categories. Marcocapelle (talk) 11:40, 5 April 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose. These categories have a different scope than those for linguists, and that scope is indicated by the title. If you change both the title and scope of the categories, you are essentially creating different categories, and doing so would eliminate valid categories that exist for a logical purpose. It would be better to create new categories under the proposed names, limiting inclusion to those entries that are actually linguists, than to convert existing categories into something that they were never intended to be, changing both the names and criteria for inclusion. The proposed change strikes me as saying, "this fire engine is red. It should be green. Also, it should be a pickup truck." I'm not great with analogies. P Aculeius (talk) 13:18, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
- What is, in your view, the difference between a scholar of language A and a linguist of language A? NLeeuw (talk) 09:00, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
- "Linguist" is typically used to mean one of two things in English: 1. An interpreter or translator; 2. Someone studying the technical aspects of language using the 'science' of linguistics—a fairly specific and limited field compared with all scholarship involving a language. At one time, the term was used more broadly, perhaps the source of confusion here. But presumably many scholars of Greek are neither linguists in the technical sense nor interpreters in the common sense. The proposal would narrow the scope of the category by excluding all scholars of a language who are not linguists. There seems to be value in being able to categorize scholars of a language irrespective of whether they are linguists, and likewise a category limited to linguists would be useful. The two categories would overlap, but the scholars category would be much broader. They should probably both exist, rather than one replacing the other. P Aculeius (talk) 22:06, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
- Comment: just to clarify one thing my previous comment may not have done very well. A linguist, in the technical sense (as opposed to a translator) is a scholar of the technical aspects of language; i.e. (as our article on linguistics suggests) syntax, morphology, semantics, phonetics. Broader scholarship of a language might not focus on any of these aspects, but instead upon the literature and historic uses of a language, its distribution within a community, the social or cultural relationships between speakers of different dialects, or other languages—whether or not related, and other questions that are peripheral to modern linguistics as a science, or even "historical linguistics". Naturally there should be some overlap, especially as the fields and topics are not always sharply defined. But there are many scholars of language who, though notable in their fields, would not generally be considered linguists. Perhaps "linguists of Fooian" might be seen as a subcategory within the broader category, "scholars of Fooian". P Aculeius (talk) 13:27, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
- What is, in your view, the difference between a scholar of language A and a linguist of language A? NLeeuw (talk) 09:00, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
- Update Sibling Category:Grammarians of Arabic has just been Renamed Category:Linguists of Arabic, and sibling Category:Grammarians of Persian has just been Merged into Category:Linguists of Persian. Worth taking into account. NLeeuw (talk) 02:30, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
- Not sure that has much bearing on scholars → linguists, since grammar is one of the technical aspects of language that might be included under the heading of "linguistics". However, I note that "grammarians" is a historic term, at least in classical languages, while "linguists" is a modern one, and would seem anachronistic applied to ancient Greek or Roman grammarians (who studied, taught, and wrote on a broader selection of topics than what we usually describe as "grammar" today). I'm not sure whether this would also apply to Arabic or Persian, although certainly ancient or medieval grammarians of these languages would probably not be described as "linguists" in literature on the subject. Modern grammarians of these languages could probably be called "linguists", since their scholarly focus would be narrower, and within the realm of modern linguistics. P Aculeius (talk) 20:42, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkltalk 19:46, 13 April 2024 (UTC)- The convention that was established a few years ago was that the "grammarians" categories could be kept for ancient languages. In this case, too, Category:Grammarians of Ancient Greek (which contains ancient people who spoke and wrote in ancient Greek and were important in shaping its grammar, if I understand correctly) will stay a subcategory of Category:Scholars of Ancient Greek, even if it is renamed Category:Linguists of Ancient Greek as proposed. When we say "linguists of Ancient Greek", we are indeed referring to (usually) modern scholars who study the Ancient Greek language in hindsight, rather than people living at the time who shaped it when it flourished in its ancient form. Perhaps @Fayenatic london or @Marcocapelle could explain further? NLeeuw (talk) 03:12, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
- @P Aculeius and Nederlandse Leeuw: Category:Humanities academics has subcategories Category:Linguists and Category:Literary scholars. I suppose we can make the same distinction here. Marcocapelle (talk) 13:04, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
- Are all (or nearly all) of the members of these categories necessarily going to fit distinctly into one or the other of these groups, or in some cases belong to both of them? If so, then perhaps this suggests a solution. But if there are members who don't distinctly fit into either group, then the answer is probably to create the linguists category and populate it with a subgroup of scholars, without altering the existing categories. P Aculeius (talk) 13:17, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkltalk 17:38, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
April 21
Category:Languages with Linglist code
- Nominator's rationale: WP:NONDEF. PepperBeast (talk) 14:07, 6 April 2024 (UTC)]
- Delete per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 16:21, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
- Keep This is a maintenance category. It's needed to help ensure that our language articles are reliably sourced. — kwami (talk) 19:16, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
- You just turned it into a maintenance category, but it is not clear that any sort of maintenance is required for articles in this category. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:16, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Keep as a maintenance category, or delete?
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, HouseBlaster (talk · he/him) 04:22, 14 April 2024 (UTC)- Comment It seems that "Linglist" is a standard parameter in Template:Infobox language that refers to an external site. E.g. Abipón language has linglist=axb.html, which apparently automatically links it to https://web.archive.org/web/20160808200116/http://multitree.org/codes/axb.html. So what seems to be going on is that there is some system which automatically links the Linglist parameter input to an archived url at multitree.org. If there is a bot actively archiving all those URLs to prevent linkrot, that seems to be maintenance, and a category could be helpful for that. But I have no expertise in this field. NLeeuw (talk) 14:42, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Toadette (Let's talk together!) 21:13, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
- Rename to Category:Language articles with Linglist code matching various others in Category:Language infobox tracking categories which start with "Language articles". – Fayenatic London 15:05, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
Category:Crafts deities
- Propose renaming Category:Crafts deities to Category:Craft deities
- Propose renaming Category:Crafts gods to Category:Craft gods
- Propose renaming Category:Crafts goddesses to Category:Craft goddesses
- Nominator's rationale: Just plain better English. PepperBeast (talk) 16:17, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
Weak opposeI think what is meant here is wikt:craft#noun meaning #7 plural:A branch of skilled work or trade, especially one requiring manual dexterity or artistic skill, but sometimes applied equally to any business, calling or profession; the skilled practice of a practical occupation
. So it's a bit like a patron saint of a branch of handicraft professions. I worry that by making it singular, "craft" can be misunderstood for any of its many other meanings, such as "vehicle" (aircraft, spacecraft etc.; I wouldn't be surprised if some religion came up with that if Pope John Paul II in 1997 could retroactively declare Isidore of Seville the "patron saint of the internet"), or as a colloquial conjugation of the verb "to craft", "craft(ed) gods", compare "graven images", human-made "idols" of gods. But I'm not a native English speaker so I'm not sure if this is a significant risk. NLeeuw (talk) 13:29, 4 April 2024 (UTC)- I kind of see your point, actually, but 'crafts' is not the solution. I'd be ok with, say, handicraft deities. PepperBeast (talk) 07:40, 5 April 2024 (UTC)
- Why is it not? I suppose it reads a lot better with 'the': "the crafts", just like "the arts", "the humanities". Some things are better in plural. Then again, "deities of the crafts" sounds a bit cumbersome. At any rate, would "handicraft deities" be correct for the contents of these categories? NLeeuw (talk) 10:18, 5 April 2024 (UTC)
- I think handicraft fits pretty well, going by the articles I had a look at. Sorry, I ama native speaker, and I can't tell you why some noun modifiers can be plural and some not, but "crafts Gods" is just not normal English. Probably the same reason we don't have cars mechanics or brains surgeons :-) PepperBeast (talk) 12:30, 5 April 2024 (UTC)
- I'm a little worried that handicraft has connotations of a hobby or at best "artisanal" activity, distinct from mainstream manufacturing. In a pre-industrial society, activities like weaving and smithing are mainstream, the only ways clothes and metal objects are produced. Does it help that the ancient Greek word is τέχνη, techne, (the root of technical, technology and technique and by no means merely a philosophical concept as our article claims), translated as skill, craftsmanship, art, craft, technique, design and other such, rather than as handicraft? NebY (talk) 14:15, 5 April 2024 (UTC)
- I see your point, too, but none of those suggestions strikes me as a really superior choice. A few years ago, I would have said artisan was perfect, but it seems to have gone all lumpy socks and unsliceable bread. Artificer seems too stilted. PepperBeast (talk) 14:28, 5 April 2024 (UTC)
- @arms dealers... ;) But alright, I'll drop my Weak oppose. It's probably okay. NLeeuw (talk) 17:28, 5 April 2024 (UTC)]
- Now I'm fretting about this very small point. "War gods" is clearly better than "wars gods"; the singular stands for the general. But Hephaestus, for example, was a smith god, not a god of all craft/handicraft, so is a member of the set of deities of various crafts.... Aargh. NebY (talk) 14:17, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
- I find "gods of handicrafts" in the authoritative standard text Greek Religion by Walter Burkert, translated from the German by John Raffan. I often got the impression that Burkert's phrasing was better in German than could be translated but still, it seems "handicrafts" may be the best English term a good translator could find. Reckon I should stop worrying and accept it! It's better than either "craft" or "crafts". NebY (talk) 14:11, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
- Okay, but what are you proposing as an alt rename then? Handicraft deities or Handicrafts deities?
- And does choosing stoneworking/stonecraft such as bridge-building and, well, "building-building", as well as woodworking / carpentry such as shipbuilding? Because that would mean a significant narrowing of the scope, and I don't think any of us is advocating that. NLeeuw (talk) 16:50, 6 April 2024 (UTC)]
- We currently include deities of shipbuilding and bridgebuilding? I'm beginning to think it's too complicated for me to suggest anything. NebY (talk) 18:33, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
- Well I was just being hypothetical, but if we look at some random examples:
- Arazu a god of construction who built and restored temples.
- Coyotlinahual a god of featherwork
- Athena a goddess of handicraft
- Brigid a goddess of smithing
- Maliya a goddess associated with gardens and with artisanship, specifically with leatherworking and carpentry.
- Mama Ocllo a goddess of weaving, sewing, and household duties.
- Hedjhotep a god of fabrics and clothes and, to a lesser extent, of weaving and the deceased
- Nunura a god of pottery
- Ptah patron deity of craftsmen and architects
- Vishvakarma deity of craftsmen, architects, crafters of chariots and weapons, city-builder.
- Quetzalcoatl related to wind, Venus, Sun, merchants, arts, crafts, knowledge, and learning.
- Uttu a goddess of weaving
- Minerva a goddess of wisdom, justice, law, victory, and the sponsor of arts, trade, and strategy.
- Ninmug a goddess of artisanship, especially with metalworking, as evidenced by her epithet tibira kalamma, "metalworker of the land."
- I don't see a really clear pattern here. Some articles do not seem to mention anything to do with "the crafts" at all (like Minerva being responsible for lots of things, but not really "the crafts"), and might have to be Purged from this tree. Part of them could reasonably be called deities of handicrafts like Athena, Nunura, and Hedjhotep. Others seem to be about larger structures, buildings, cities even. Architects design buildings, not decorative small objects normally associated with "handicrafts". I guess it was my mistake thinking that "handicrafts" and "crafts" meant the same, but evidently handicrafts are a subset of the crafts. NLeeuw (talk) 20:20, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks for doing the legwork! I am uncertain that users of English distinguish handicrafts from crafts consistently. I haven't tried a survey; serendipitously, last night I read "the development of farming techniques, building skills, craft traditions such as pottery, trade networks" (Amélie Kuhrt, The Ancient Near East). NebY (talk) 13:29, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
- Well I was just being hypothetical, but if we look at some random examples:
- We currently include deities of shipbuilding and bridgebuilding? I'm beginning to think it's too complicated for me to suggest anything. NebY (talk) 18:33, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
- @
- I see your point, too, but none of those suggestions strikes me as a really superior choice. A few years ago, I would have said artisan was perfect, but it seems to have gone all lumpy socks and unsliceable bread. Artificer seems too stilted. PepperBeast (talk) 14:28, 5 April 2024 (UTC)
- I'm a little worried that handicraft has connotations of a hobby or at best "artisanal" activity, distinct from mainstream manufacturing. In a pre-industrial society, activities like weaving and smithing are mainstream, the only ways clothes and metal objects are produced. Does it help that the ancient Greek word is τέχνη, techne, (the root of technical, technology and technique and by no means merely a philosophical concept as our article claims), translated as skill, craftsmanship, art, craft, technique, design and other such, rather than as handicraft? NebY (talk) 14:15, 5 April 2024 (UTC)
- I think handicraft fits pretty well, going by the articles I had a look at. Sorry, I ama native speaker, and I can't tell you why some noun modifiers can be plural and some not, but "crafts Gods" is just not normal English. Probably the same reason we don't have cars mechanics or brains surgeons :-) PepperBeast (talk) 12:30, 5 April 2024 (UTC)
- Why is it not? I suppose it reads a lot better with 'the': "the crafts", just like "the arts", "the humanities". Some things are better in plural. Then again, "deities of the crafts" sounds a bit cumbersome. At any rate, would "handicraft deities" be correct for the contents of these categories? NLeeuw (talk) 10:18, 5 April 2024 (UTC)
- I kind of see your point, actually, but 'crafts' is not the solution. I'd be ok with, say, handicraft deities. PepperBeast (talk) 07:40, 5 April 2024 (UTC)
- I can understand NebY's reaction. Shouldn't we rather split this to handicraft on the one hand and building/construction on the other hand? Marcocapelle (talk) 20:06, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
- Perhaps, if the literature supports such a division. But lots of articles in this tree do not seem to mention any "crafts" at all, or I just don't properly understand the term. NLeeuw (talk) 20:22, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
- I think such a split would make sense. We can easily conceive of a set that includes all of building, construction, weaving, smithing and pottery, and in at least one language it can easily be given a name. I fear that in English it can't and so en-wiki can't usefully have such a category. NebY (talk) 13:36, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Any further comments on splitting?
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkltalk 20:41, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
April 15
Category:Marching
- Nominator's rationale: Purge or reparent. Are pride parades part of military traditions? There's already Category:Military marching and Category:Military marches. --MikutoH talk! 02:33, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
- Selectively merge to WP:SHAREDNAME. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:36, 15 April 2024 (UTC)]
April 13
Category:19th-century Roman Catholic church buildings in New Caledonia
- Nominator's rationale: Broaden this category to include 19th-century churches of all denominations. There are only two pages in here, and 4 total in the entire Roman Catholic churches in New Caledonia Mason (talk) 23:02, 26 March 2024 (UTC)
- Merge to Category:19th century in New Caledonia. Even this category is so small that Category:19th-century churches in New Caledonia is certainly not viable. Marcocapelle (talk) 23:13, 26 March 2024 (UTC)
- Keep for categorising under the dependent territory and the continent category trees. (Otherwise combine with the counterparts for other territoires d'outre-mer, collectivités d'outre-mer, pays d'outre-mer and collectivités sui generis.) 61.244.93.97 (talk) 09:19, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
- Both the rename and the merge proposal are keeping the content in the tree of the the dependent territory, so this is not a reason to oppose. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:22, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
- In that case either keep as it is, or, less preferably, keep a big tent category for Roman Catholic churches of all collectivités d'outre-mer along with the sole pays d'outre-mer and the collectivité sui generis. 61.244.93.97 (talk) 09:27, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
- I countered your argument in my previous reply. Then it does not make sense to repeat your "keep" without any new argument. Marcocapelle (talk) 22:57, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
- FYI to the closer this IP is probably ]
- I countered your argument in my previous reply. Then it does not make sense to repeat your "keep" without any new argument. Marcocapelle (talk) 22:57, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Justarandomamerican (talk) Have a good day! 01:53, 5 April 2024 (UTC)- Marcocapelle you didn't have a single word on the big-tent proposal on a category for all collectivités d'outre-mer, the pays d'outre-mer and the collectivité sui generis. What's your take? (...are keeping the content in the tree of the the dependent territory... And no I don't mean generally the tree under Category:Dependent territories but Category:19th-century Roman Catholic church buildings by dependent territory specifically.) 61.244.93.97 (talk) 08:11, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
- Category:19th-century Roman Catholic church buildings by dependent territory is a container category i.e. not a merge target for a category populated with articles. Marcocapelle (talk) 11:48, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
- So what's your take in the big-tent proposal for all collectivités d'outre-mer, the pays d'outre-mer and the collectivité sui generis? Such a category can be placed under Category:19th-century Roman Catholic church buildings by dependent territory. 61.244.93.97 (talk) 07:41, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
- No one is removing the category from Roman Catholic church buildings by dependent territory, you're just imposing unnecessary layers that at the present do not help navigation. Mason (talk) 23:10, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
- So what's your take in the big-tent proposal for all collectivités d'outre-mer, the pays d'outre-mer and the collectivité sui generis? Such a category can be placed under Category:19th-century Roman Catholic church buildings by dependent territory. 61.244.93.97 (talk) 07:41, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkltalk 20:07, 13 April 2024 (UTC)- @Marcocapelle, @Mason, any compromise here? — Qwerfjkltalk 17:37, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
Category:Battles involving Bengal
- Nominator's rationale: merge, battles are diffused by (former) countries and Bengal was not a country. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:52, 13 April 2024 (UTC)
- Rename to Category:Battles involving Bangladesh, The battles in the category are involved Bengal region and Bangladesh is created from the a big part of the region. It would be better to rename the category and make specify it for country-wise battle category. Mehedi Abedin 09:07, 13 April 2024 (UTC)
- Rename to Category:Military history of Bengal. IMHO this is a useful division of Category:History of Bengal. – Fayenatic London 09:56, 13 April 2024 (UTC)
- Ok that is a reasonable alternative, but then still the content should be added to Category:Battles involving the Indian kingdoms too. Marcocapelle (talk) 12:29, 13 April 2024 (UTC)
- @Marcocapelle: it should only be a selective merge to that parent, because many of the articles are already in other subcats of that one, and I'm not sure whether the others belong there. I suggest you watch the category and merge any valid missing items yourself if the rename goes through. – Fayenatic London 15:15, 20 April 2024 (UTC)
- Fair enough. Marcocapelle (talk) 15:18, 20 April 2024 (UTC)
- Ok that is a reasonable alternative, but then still the content should be added to Category:Battles involving the Indian kingdoms too. Marcocapelle (talk) 12:29, 13 April 2024 (UTC)
April 10
Category:19th-century Roman Catholic church buildings in Réunion
- Nominator's rationale: Upmerge for now. There's only 4 churches total in Category:Roman Catholic churches in Réunion, so diffusion by century isn't helpful for navigation Mason (talk) 20:22, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
- Merge per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:33, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
- For the last proposed destination, merge to Category:19th-century Roman Catholic church buildings in France instead. Réunion is a département et région d'outre-mer of France. The nominator gotta read more to make responsible nominations. 121.202.28.169 (talk) 11:36, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
- Sigh... to the closer these are probably the same IP (Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Edit_warring#User:185.104.63.112_reported_by_User:Smasongarrison_(Result:_Blocked)) Mason (talk) 14:16, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
- I have mixed feelings about Category:19th-century Roman Catholic church buildings in France as an alternative merge target, would certainly not strongly oppose it. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:41, 26 March 2024 (UTC)
- What about, say, Hawaii or Alaska? (Or Malta should integration be achieved back in the 1950s–60s?) 61.244.93.97 (talk) 09:03, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
- Or Kaliningrad post-1945? 61.244.93.97 (talk) 09:59, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
- What about, say, Hawaii or Alaska? (Or Malta should integration be achieved back in the 1950s–60s?) 61.244.93.97 (talk) 09:03, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
- Keep so that it may be grouped under an African parent category when there are also such by continent parents. 61.244.93.97 (talk) 09:03, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
- If you create it then of course it is a good merge target too. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:03, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
- Keep as stated above; or otherwise the next preferable choice would be merger with Roman catholic church buildings in all other départements et régions d'outre-mer under the same category. 61.244.93.97 (talk) 08:00, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
- Keep this category and put it under both the French and the African hierarchy. 83.229.61.201 (talk) 15:34, 31 March 2024 (UTC)
- As an IP user you can vote as many times as you want but don't expect it to be taken seriously by the closer of the discussion. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:12, 1 April 2024 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Further comments on the final merge target, specifically on whether these churches belong in the "France" category, would be appreciated!
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, HouseBlaster (talk · he/him) 14:53, 2 April 2024 (UTC)- @Marcocapelle: I don't bother to vote more than once for this. 83.229.61.201 (talk) 18:32, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
- Pretty sure you did... Wikipedia:Long-term abuse/Hong Kong geography warrior Mason (talk) 22:30, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
- @Marcocapelle: I don't bother to vote more than once for this. 83.229.61.201 (talk) 18:32, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
- Merge to multiple targets including France, and the new Category:19th-century Roman Catholic church buildings in Africa. The nominator has added 2 articles in the nominated category to 2 articles in the Reunion parent to make 4, but they are the same 2 articles, so no breakdown of Reunion churches is justified. – Fayenatic London 21:36, 2 April 2024 (UTC)
- Re the Africa category, I have added a parent Category:19th-century churches in Africa and retrieved some contents that had been upmerged per Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2024_February_23#Category:Anglican_cathedrals_by_country. @CanonNi: please expand the hierarchy around these still-isolated categories to other continents and centuries. – Fayenatic London 11:16, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
- Sorry but I created the categories from ]
- @Fayenatic london: Cool. Would you think it's easier to navigate and clearer to understand from the audience' point of view to have for these buildings in Réunion a subcategory under both the French and the African categories, than a four-way upmerge? 83.229.61.201 (talk) 18:32, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks for following this – I assume you're the same editor as the requester 59.152.195.28 (talk · contribs). I used to support thin hierarchies with very specific intersections, but in the last few years there have been many precedents at CFD with consensus to merge such cases. So no, I don't recommend creating categories with only one or two members, except where we can reasonably expect that more eligible articles will be created fairly soon. – Fayenatic London 13:20, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
- No I'm not. Given the number of articles in French on Wikipedia about churches in Réunion a lot more articles can reasonably be expected. 83.229.61.201 (talk) 09:25, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks for following this – I assume you're the same editor as the requester 59.152.195.28 (talk · contribs). I used to support thin hierarchies with very specific intersections, but in the last few years there have been many precedents at CFD with consensus to merge such cases. So no, I don't recommend creating categories with only one or two members, except where we can reasonably expect that more eligible articles will be created fairly soon. – Fayenatic London 13:20, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
- Re the Africa category, I have added a parent Category:19th-century churches in Africa and retrieved some contents that had been upmerged per Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2024_February_23#Category:Anglican_cathedrals_by_country. @CanonNi: please expand the hierarchy around these still-isolated categories to other continents and centuries. – Fayenatic London 11:16, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkltalk 16:54, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
April 8
Category:French forts in the United States
- Propose renaming Category:French forts in the United States to Category:French forts in New France
- Nominator's rationale: This seems anachronistic. These forts were not "in the United States" when they were built and only became so later on. User:Namiba 02:33, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
- Rename per nom, or perhaps simply Category:Forts in New France. Category:French forts in Canada may be nominated as well. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:54, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
- Comment if these forts still existed at the time Canada was established, then the category is correct. And there was also the colony of United Canadas, British North America -- 65.92.247.66 (talk) 05:03, 23 March 2024 (UTC)]
- Comment if these forts still existed at the time Canada was established, then the category is correct. And there was also the colony of
- Comment if these forts still existed at the time that the USA took over the territory, then they are correct. Such as many forts acquired in the Louisiana Purchase. Or any ruins/museums that still exist today -- 65.92.247.66 (talk) 05:05, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
- After the United States took them over they were no longer "French forts" and, as American forts, the articles are already in e.g. Category:Colonial forts in Tennessee. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:11, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
- This is not only a proposed renaming but also an extension of scope; forts in New France that were not in provinces which became the United States will be covered as a result. 61.244.93.97 (talk) 09:48, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
- Which is perfectly fine. New France has never been divided in an American and a Canadian part. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:16, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkltalk 12:56, 30 March 2024 (UTC)- Comment: To the closer: the IPs are all are probably the same IP (see: Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Edit_warring#User:185.104.63.112_reported_by_User:Smasongarrison_(Result:_Blocked), and Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/185.104.63.112)
- Mason (talk) 19:28, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose I think some people aren't reading closely what this category is meant to group, namely: List of French forts in North America which still exist today, but further subgrouped into Canada and the United States. Which country or colony or state or polity or empire or republic etc. they were part of at the time of their construction is not the point of the "United States" part of the category name. If we're really pedantic about it, this category is about Category:Forts constructed by the Kingdom of France in its New France colony in North America which still exist today on the territory of the United States of America despite being constructed before that territory became U.S. territory. But that's a little long, so I think the current name Category:French forts in the United States is fine. NLeeuw (talk) 14:52, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
- PS: An Alt Rename might be Category:Former French forts in the United States or Category:French-built forts in the United States, but I think that requires renaming the underlying main article List of French forts in North America first. NLeeuw (talk) 15:03, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkltalk 17:54, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
- Comment I have initiated a Requested move at Talk:Architecture of the United States#Requested move 16 April 2024, which is directly relevant to our discussions here. You might want to participate in it. It could resolve the question, especially the example of Category:Colonial architecture in the United States, as we might regard French forts in the United States as an example of "French colonial architecture in the United States". We've already got Category:British colonial architecture in the United States and Category:Spanish Colonial architecture in the United States. NLeeuw (talk) 06:49, 16 April 2024 (UTC)]
Medical schools in the Caribbean
- Propose merging Category:Schools of medicine in Bonaire to
Category:Medical schools in the Netherlands, Category:Medical schools in the CaribbeanCategory:Medical schools in the Dutch Caribbean, Category:Health in Bonaire and Category:Universities and colleges in Bonaire - Propose merging Category:Schools of medicine in Saba (island) to
Category:Medical schools in the Netherlands, Category:Medical schools in the CaribbeanCategory:Medical schools in the Dutch Caribbean, Category:Health in Saba (island) and Category:Universities and colleges in Saba (island) - Propose merging Category:Schools of medicine in Sint Maarten to
Category:Medical schools in the Netherlands, Category:Medical schools in the CaribbeanCategory:Medical schools in the Dutch Caribbean, Category:Health in Sint Maarten and Category:Universities and colleges in Sint Maarten - Propose renaming Category:Schools of medicine in Curaçao to Category:Medical schools in Curaçao
- Propose merging Category:Schools of medicine in Bonaire to
- Nominator's rationale: Merge categories with only one or two members to all parents. Rename the last ]
- Support per nom Mason (talk) 13:55, 21 March 2024 (UTC)
- Merge/rename per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 16:54, 21 March 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose. Sint Maarten and Curaçao are not part of the Netherlands. For the BES islands merge the categories to one named Caribbean Netherlands instead so that they are subcategorized under both the Netherlands and the Caribbean categories. 46.229.243.187 (talk) 08:45, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks, I see – Sint Maarten and Curaçao are part of the Kingdom of the Netherlands but not part of the Netherlands. I included the Netherlands target in the nomination because that is currently a parent in each case. Looking for categories using "Caribbean Netherlands", I only found Category:History of the Caribbean Netherlands. What we do have is Category:Dutch Caribbean including Universities and colleges in the Dutch Caribbean, so that is indeed a better home for these. I have amended the nomination accordingly, to merge into a new Category:Medical schools in the Dutch Caribbean. – Fayenatic London 10:52, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
- Comment: Medical schools in the Caribbean is much more useful than the Dutch Caribbean. Mason (talk) 13:58, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
- As there is a fairly full hierarchy for Dutch Caribbean, I see no reason not to add one more, which will belong in Medical schools in the Caribbean and Medical schools in the Netherlands as well as Health in the Dutch Caribbean. – Fayenatic London 17:31, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
- Comment: Medical schools in the Caribbean is much more useful than the Dutch Caribbean. Mason (talk) 13:58, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks, I see – Sint Maarten and Curaçao are part of the Kingdom of the Netherlands but not part of the Netherlands. I included the Netherlands target in the nomination because that is currently a parent in each case. Looking for categories using "Caribbean Netherlands", I only found Category:History of the Caribbean Netherlands. What we do have is Category:Dutch Caribbean including Universities and colleges in the Dutch Caribbean, so that is indeed a better home for these. I have amended the nomination accordingly, to merge into a new Category:Medical schools in the Dutch Caribbean. – Fayenatic London 10:52, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
- @Fayenatic london: It doesn't sound nice to lump together the BES islands with those of the CAS islands. 46.229.243.187 (talk) 14:29, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
- When you use terms that may not be common knowledge, please link them, e.g. CAS islands.
- Sorry if IYHO it doesn't sound nice to use Dutch Caribbean, but setting up a separate sub-hierarchy for Caribbean Netherlands would require many perpetually small categories. The best hierarchy we have is Dutch Caribbean. – Fayenatic London 17:31, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
- @Dutch Antilles were dissolved. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:42, 27 March 2024 (UTC)]
- I'm no expert on the history or current politics, I'm just looking at how our categories are structured at the moment. Would you support a split of the whole Dutch Caribbean hierarchy? If so, I suggest you make a nomination to split some representative categories at the top levels. But until that has happened, the tiny sub-topic of medical schools should follow the existing hierarchy. – Fayenatic London 21:32, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
- @
- When you use terms that may not be common knowledge, please link them, e.g.
- @Fayenatic london: It doesn't sound nice to lump together the BES islands with those of the CAS islands. 46.229.243.187 (talk) 14:29, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkltalk 19:11, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
- Well at least I still support merging, even if one of the merge targets (Category:Medical schools in the Caribbean versus Category:Medical schools in the Dutch Caribbean) is disputable. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:44, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
- Keep Category:Medical schools in Sint Maarten and keep it under Category:Medical schools in the Caribbean and Category:Medical schools by country (along with Category:Medical schools in Curaçao and Category:Medical schools in Aruba). Group medical schools of the BES islands under Caribbean Netherlands and keep them under both Category:Medical schools in the Caribbean and Category:Medical schools in the Netherlands. 46.229.243.187 (talk) 16:09, 31 March 2024 (UTC)
- No, Carribean Netherlands is equally non-existant as Dutch Carribean. Marcocapelle (talk) 19:31, 31 March 2024 (UTC)
- I'm not sure what you mean by that. Fix the spelling and Caribbean Netherlands (mnemonic: it's named after the Carib people) comprises the BES islands.
- I have since found that the latter does have a bare category, Category:Caribbean special municipalities of the Netherlands, so I have put its history category within it.
- Just as obiter dicta, what should be done with Category:Dutch Caribbean? Split/rename the whole hierarchy to "Kingdom of the Netherlands" (including Curacao, Aruba, Sint Maarten) and "Caribbean Netherlands" for BES? After that, Dutch Caribbean could be disambiguated between Caribbean Netherlands and the historical Islands of the Netherlands Antilles. – Fayenatic London 11:11, 1 April 2024 (UTC)]
- You are right about my spelling mistake and, more importantly, right about the way to solve this problem more generally. Marcocapelle (talk) 11:19, 1 April 2024 (UTC)
- Just as obiter dictum, should Category:Dutch Caribbean be kept just to hold a small number of subcategories and topics that are common to both BES and CAS (or ABC and SSS)? 46.229.243.187 (talk) 12:02, 2 April 2024 (UTC)
- No, Carribean Netherlands is equally non-existant as Dutch Carribean. Marcocapelle (talk) 19:31, 31 March 2024 (UTC)
- It's "non-existence" yet it's a good collective term to refer to these special municipalities altogether. It's somehow like referring to an additional province although they aren't. 46.229.243.187 (talk) 12:02, 2 April 2024 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkltalk 17:51, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
- A category for medical schools in the Caribbean Netherlands would be too small, as there are only 2 members in the current cats for Bonaire and Saba. If there is no consensus to merging to the intermediate level Dutch Caribbean, then revert to my original merge proposal, but omit the Netherlands category in the case of Sint Maarten. – Fayenatic London 15:04, 13 April 2024 (UTC)