Wikipedia:Featured article review/archive/August 2008

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article review. Please do not modify it. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page or at Wikipedia talk:Featured article review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was kept by User:Joelr31 22:44, 10 August 2008 [8].

Ahmedabad

Review commentary

User:Aksi great, WP:WikiProject Cities, WP:WikiProject India, and WP:WikiProject Gujarat have been notified.------Kensplanet (talk) 12:49, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Lead

*Since 2000, the city has been transformed through the construction of skyscrapers, shopping malls and multiplexes.[3][dead link]
Dead link in the Main Lead.

Thus, the lead criterion 2(a) is violated.

This has been removed now. --gppande «talk» 16:50, 6 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Paragraphs after Paragraphs are uncited. An Entire paragraph without even a single citation surely violates 1(c).

The Gujarat High Court in Ahmedabad appears in the Geography and Climate section. Irrelevant. It violates criterion 3.

There are sentences like Arvind Mills, located in Ahmedabad, is one of the largest textile mills in the country. without a reference. Ofcourse, the list is not exhaustive.

The Image Retail is a big portion of the commercial economy in no way represents economy of the city.

Too. many images of Rivers..River Sabarmati should be enough but editors have included Vastrapur Lake too..

Please have a glance at the quality of these sentences........

Clearly violates criterion 1(a) -- well written.

An unofficial review suggestion was given by Amartyabag on the article's talk page Talk:Ahmedabad#This article need an unofficial FAR. But there has been no improvement still. So that calls for an official review.

I think the Article can easily retain its FA status once these issues are addresses.--->>Kensplanet (talk) 12:25, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Most of the points mentioned by you are mostly quite objective and can be done. It is much easier to remove unnecessary lists of media or sentences contributed by newbie/ip address. Few days back I had noted one sentence in demographics for citation needed. Apart from that I do not feel the citations are missing for many paragraphs. Please point which sections are missing citations as per you. Also I do not see many river images in the article. --gppande «talk» 13:56, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• How can we trust data from Ref7 http://www.ahmedabad.com/incity/2k/june/24ld.htm as reliable. That way you have www.ahmedabadcity.com/, www.ahmedabad.org.uk/. Can we trust them?

Replaced all the refs from these cites with credible news sources like timesofindia, indian express, etc. --gppande «talk» 10:49, 4 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Ref3 http://temple-news.com/media/storage/paper143/news/2000/10/19/News/Professor.Sees.Philadelphia.In.An.Indian.City-5883.shtml?norewrite200607311201&sourcedomain=www.temple-news.com gives a 404 error, which is the main source of information for the article.

The reference page is working good. I opened it now. --gppande «talk» 10:52, 4 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Are you sure? I am still getting a 404 error----Kensplanet (talk) 17:19, 4 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I am not sure whats the difference between the two. But the link in reference section of article works. I noticed the link copied here (on this page) does not work. click this - http://temple-news.com/2000/10/19/professor-sees-philadelphia-in-an-indian-city/ --gppande «talk» 20:44, 5 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Ahmedabad Urban Agglomeration data is taken from The Hindu, a newspaper http://www.hinduonnet.com/2001/04/07/stories/0207000q.htm
  Newspapers no doubt are reliable, but such important data need to be taken from Government Websites rather than Newspapers.

Replaced ref and data with http://www.udd.gujarat.gov.in/Default_files/UrbanScenario.htm to make it more reliable. --gppande «talk» 16:50, 6 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• How can you rely on literacy data from Mediaware Infotech http://www.mediaware-infotech.com/newsletter/Gujarati/literacy.htm
  The About Section of that states that Mediaware has been providing software solutions for the advertising and media industry for the past decade.------Kensplanet (talk) 18:45, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Replaced ref with http://gujarat-education.gov.in/Literacy/aboutus.htm --gppande «talk» 21:54, 5 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• In Transport, I think these sentences require a reference----(Ahmedabad is one of the six operating divisions of the Western Railway.), (It would be very good if some more refs are provided in the first para).

done --gppande «talk» 12:00, 4 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• The Media section requires a thorough Copyedit. (The city is home to the historic Navajivan Publishing House — founded in 1919 by Mahatma Gandhi — which is one of India's premier publications company.)....This sentence requires a ref

Done by User:Dwaipayanc. Thanks! --gppande «talk» 16:30, 6 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Check the External links.....What does the Link4 mean?What is Ahmedabad Ahmedabad Urban Development Authority. It should be Ahmedabad Urban Development Authority

Done

Please see the instructions at

Suggested FA criteria concerns are referencing (1c) and images (3), Kensplanet (talk) 07:04, 19 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Remove. More than 2 weeks are over. Still no significant improvement. Only minor improvements.

• 1 (c)
• Arvind Mills, located in Ahmedabad, is one of the largest textile mills in the country.

Removed. --gppande «talk» 15:19, 19 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• The prestigious Gujarat Vidyapith was established in 1920 by Mahatma Gandhi; it was among the first institutions of higher learning managed entirely by Indians, despite British control.

Formatted + referenced. --gppande «talk» 15:55, 19 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Some titles and publishers of the references are entirely in Capitals. This shouldn't be there in a FA.

I corrected the 2 refs to lower cases which I myself had added. I didn't knew this rule. Thanks for pointing. --gppande «talk» 19:49, 19 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Ahmedabad is the largest inland industrial centre in western India, and has historically enjoyed a reputation as an important base of commerce, trade and industry. (I don't beleive this since http://temple-news.com/2000/10/19/professor-sees-philadelphia-in-an-indian-city/ doesn't cover this).

Removed --gppande «talk» 15:19, 19 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• 3

*The Gujarat High Court in Ahmedabad appears in the Geography and Climate section. Irrelevant. It violates criterion 3.

• The Image Retail is a big portion of the commercial economy in no way represents economy of the city. It is just a picture of a Mall.

All points addressed. --gppande «talk» 15:55, 19 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Peacock terms

*The prestigious Gujarat Vidyapith was established in 1920 by Mahatma Gandhi; it was among the first institutions of higher learning managed entirely by Indians, despite British control.

• Prestigious institutions such as the Indian Institute of Management, the National Institute of Design, the Mudra Institute of Communications, the National Institute of Fashion Technology, the Entrepreneurship Development Institute of India, and the Center for Environmental Planning and Technology are located in Ahmedabad.
• Who decides whether they are prestigious.

All points addressed. --gppande «talk» 15:55, 19 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

—Preceding unsigned comment added by Kensplanet (talk • contribs)

Please review the instructions at

Suggested FA criteria concerns are referencing (1c) and prose (1a). Marskell (talk) 17:24, 22 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Remove. All the issues haven't been resolved. The Site also uses data from unreliable sites. A lot of data which need to be cited is uncited. Kensplanet^Talk_E-mail^{Contributions} 13:23, 23 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

RESOLVED ISSUES
What makes the following Sources reliable:

• REF1 (http://www.world-gazetteer.com/wg.php?x=&men=gcis&lng=en&dat=32&geo=-104&srt=pnan&col=aohdq&va=&pt=a)
  • World Gazetter for population statistics. So much so that you have used in the Lead.

World Gazetter has been used for showing the UA data in most of the FAs like Mumbai & India. I agree, WikiProject India says Census data is only valid but for UA data World Gazetter has been traditionally used across WP. As you can see census data is already present in Demographics section which tells the population of Ahmedabad city itself and not UA. --gppande «talk» 17:22, 23 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Remember, the current revisions of Mumbai and India may not be featured revisions. World Gazetter references have been added recently. If they have a FAR currently, those sites may vanish. So please do not compare your article with other FA articles. What makes you think that World Gazetter is a reliable source. Perhaps you can find a nespaper article mentioning World Gazetter is noteworthy or an University/reputed organization such as Census of India recommending World Gazetter for population statistics. Only then can World Gazetter be considered as a reliable source. Kensplanet^Talk_E-mail^{Contributions} 14:13, 24 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well, you seemed to support WG on Manglore FAC which showed me this link but hold an opposite view for this FAR. Anyways, I have replaced World Gazetter now with census of India. Hope this is sufficient. --gppande «talk» 15:22, 24 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I do support World Gazetter. But, I also do beleive that the Census of India is much more reliable than the World Gazetter can ever be. The problem with this article was population figures in the main Infobox were mentioned from the World Gazetter, which I have objected right from the beginning. How can World Gazetter be more reliable than Census data. You can mention World Gazetter details maybe in the Demographics section. But anyway, I am trying hard to prove that World Gazetter is a reliable source. Maybe, you can help me in proving that it is reliable in the Mangalore FAC. Once proved, we can freely use it for all city articles. In any case, preference of World Gazetter over Census of India may be difficult to prove. Although not impossible. Kensplanet^Talk_E-mail^{Contributions} 15:39, 24 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I am sad to know that Mangalore FAC is really related to this FAR. This should not be the motive in my opinion. If one FAC doesn't go through we should not pull down another FA. Anyways, I am not concerned and will continue to do improvement here in good faith. -- preceding text reposted as it was deleted by reviewer Coming to the point, since WG is no more referenced in Ahmedabad please strike out this point. --gppande «talk» 16:07, 24 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• REF2 (http://www.hindu.com/yw/2006/06/23/stories/2006062300300200.htm)
  • Newspapers cannot be treated reliable for such nicknames. It has to be from the Ahmedabad municipal Corporation.

Done Although there is no such rule/guideline that reputable newspapers cannot be source for nicknames, I have replaced the citation with a citation from a book. Please have a look.--Dwaipayan (talk) 22:21, 23 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I am still not convinced. I don't say Newspapers and books are unreliable for such data, but they are marginally reliable. If Ahmedabad is the Manchester of the East indeed, then why are you finding it difficult to give me a reference from the Ahmedabad Municipal Corporation. Nicknames have official recognition and are usually mentioned in the respective corporation websites. Bangalore is called the Silicon Valley of India. Is it true? Yes it is, since it is mentioned in http://www.bmponline.org/ . (The Corporation website of Bangalore). There's no way I can question this nickname. Websites can be used as secondary references but primary sources have to be such references. (http://www.hindu.com/2005/04/04/stories/2005040410830300.htm) [a reputed newspaper] says Mangalore is Rome of the east. But we cannot rely such data because it has no official backing. Kensplanet^Talk_E-mail^{Contributions} 14:02, 24 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You say, "I don't say Newspapers and books are unreliable for such data, but they are marginally reliable." I tell this sentence of you is Original Research. A reputable newspaper like The Hindu is reliable, and so is a book on recent history of Gujarat published by a well-known publisher. Two good sources, I feel are enough.

Regarding Rome of East, yes Hindu says it, so does the book "An Indian to the Indians?: On the Initial Failure and the Posthumous Success of ..." by Reinhard Wendt (ISBN 3447051612), page 131. So, I dont have any problem in believing that.--Dwaipayan (talk) 20:12, 24 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have added the best possible ref (online) to back Manchester of the East. What could me more reliable than CDP of Jawaharlal Nehru National Urban Renewal Mission. Now strike this out. --gppande «talk» 21:18, 24 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Even 1000 books and websites cannot match the municipal corporations website. Although I have striked this issue currently. I'll consult experienced editors for this. I think you are right. But if you are not, then this issue will reappear again. Kensplanet^Talk_E-mail^{Contributions} 11:11, 25 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Don't worry, the CDP is present on the homepage of AMC website. --gppande «talk» 13:16, 25 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This was the reference I was waiting for. An official PDF from the Ahmedabad Municipal Corporation. There's no way I can question this. Ahmedabad is/was indeed the Manchester of the East. Well Done!!!! Kensplanet^Talk_E-mail^{Contributions} 13:58, 28 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

*REF4 (http://www.egovamc.com/A_City/ahmedabad/history.asp)

• • It doesn't mention any of its sources from which book or references it has taken data from.

Website egovamc is maintained by Ahmedabad municipal corporation. --gppande «talk» 15:27, 23 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• • Well, the Site is 100% reliable. But surely the Site has not conducted any research on the history and taken data from reputed books and other sources. Without mention of these sources in the History, the Source is marginally reliable. You have to ground the history from books and other such sources and not copy huge sections of data from (http://www.egovamc.com/A_City/ahmedabad/history.asp), which may also give rise to copyright infringement issues. Only original research from Govt. websites can be blindly mentioned. This includes Population, Demographics, etc... for which the Corporation has conducted research. But for History, it has not conducted any research. Kensplanet^Talk_E-mail^{Contributions} 16:05, 23 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This seems to be as an opinion rather than an argument. Websites maintained by government of India or various state/civic governments have to be relied on. In case any concerns about the government website data we can always check back asking clarification under the RTI act of Indian government. Also the information is not copied but simply referred under one reference and organized as WP standards. --gppande «talk» 19:32, 23 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Done Although the argument seems quite lame, I have replaced the citation with a book citation. Indeed this citation can be used to support more historical sentences.--Dwaipayan (talk) 22:33, 23 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I would like to have a glance at the book Online. Kensplanet^Talk_E-mail^{Contributions} 14:46, 24 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think a walk to your nearby library which has this IBSN number book would convince you. We are reviewing the WP article here not the source of source. Anyways, Dwaipayanc if you have it online let the reviewer know. --gppande «talk» 16:12, 24 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have provided the page number, ISBN, book name, you are at your liberty to find an online version/offline version of the book. --Dwaipayan (talk) 20:12, 24 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'll check the source. This will take time. Better if you help me provide URLs to your reference. Kensplanet^Talk_E-mail^{Contributions} 11:20, 25 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• REF10 (http://temple-news.com/2000/10/19/professor-sees-philadelphia-in-an-indian-city/)
  • Temple News is a twice-weekly student-run newspaper of Temple University in Philadelphia. It's not written by an expert, but just an undergraduate student. Such sources cannot be considered reliable.

I have removed this citation on few place. 2 are left and I will do it tomorrow. Now time to go to bed. --gppande «talk» 21:18, 24 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The Temple News ref has been removed from the article now and has been replaced with other legitimate refs. --gppande «talk» 18:29, 25 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• REF11 (http://web.archive.org/web/20060909054812/http://www.tourismofindia.com/himg/mgahmedabadwhattosee.htm)
  • Tourism Sites cannot be relied upon for crucial geographic data. Data has to be from the Geological Survey of India etc.. Kensplanet^Talk_E-mail^{Contributions} 13:51, 22 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Actually the tourism website is not any other tourism website but again of Ministry of Tourism (India) as can be seen from here. Also GSI does not put the data or research on websites and is rarely used on WP. --gppande «talk» 19:50, 23 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Done Yet again, a tourism site by the Government of India, why cannot this be reliable!!! Anyway, have replaced this by citation from 1984 Gujarat State Gazetteer.--Dwaipayan (talk) 22:55, 23 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Can I have a glance at the 1984 Gujarat State Gazetteer please. Is it available online on the Net. Or do you have a copy of Gujarat State Gazetteer. Or is it available on Google Books. Full, Limited preview will do. Or anywhere else. Or if you have taken data from Snippets of Google Books, then you can post the URL of images here. Kensplanet^Talk_E-mail^{Contributions} 14:38, 24 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Of course you can have a glance. I have provided adequate info so that you can find it out. There is one search engine called Google that you can use, better still Google Book.--Dwaipayan (talk) 20:12, 24 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Actually I meant that you provide me the reference. Since you are not interested, I'll have to do it myself. This is going to take some time. If you want this issue to be striked immediately, its better you provide me the online reference here. Only after I check it, will this issue get striked bt me. Kensplanet^Talk_E-mail^{Contributions} 11:18, 25 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• REF32 (http://content-ind.cricinfo.com/india/content/ground/57851.html)
• REF33 (http://content-ind.cricinfo.com/india/content/ground/57852.html)
• REF34 (http://content-aus.cricinfo.com/ci/content/player/32242.html)
• REF35 (http://content-aus.cricinfo.com/india/content/player/32236.html)
  • What makes you feel CRcinfo is reliable?

• Cricinfo has been used extensively on other FAs like Harbhajan Singh. Info taken from this site is trivial in case of Ahemdabad. Website is one of the most visited for cricket related news/info. --gppande «talk» 15:27, 23 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• REF49 (http://www.asiawaves.net/india/gujarat-radio.htm)
  • How can you rely data from Asiawaves? Kensplanet^Talk_E-mail^{Contributions} 14:05, 22 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have rephrased and made the ref to point to AIR. --gppande «talk» 15:47, 23 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Crucial population details in the Lead and Infobox are taken from World Gazeteer rather than Census of India. Census of India is 100 times more reliable than World Gazeteer.
• The stadium has frequently served as venue for matches during major tournaments such as the 1987 Cricket World Cup, the 1996 Cricket World Cup and the 2006 ICC Champions Trophy

Formatted. --gppande «talk» 15:19, 19 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Since, I have booked these sentences under 1(c). Rather than formatting, it needs reference. I don't beleive it has hosted 1987 Cricket World Cup, the 1996 Cricket World Cup and the 2006 ICC Champions Trophy. Kensplanet^Talk_E-mail^{Contributions} 13:55, 22 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Infact, 1996 World cup match did happen in the ground. Sentence referenced and others removed. --gppande «talk» 19:34, 23 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Strike out please --gppande «talk» 21:18, 24 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Crucial geographical data is taken from http://www.tourismofindia.com/himg/mgahmedabadwhattosee.htm . How can we trust that site. If you just browse the Net, you may get thousands of similar sites.

This point has already been addressed. The website is fully trust worthy as it is Government of India website + Book source clarifies it all. Strike out. --gppande «talk» 13:30, 25 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Ref20 doesn't have Archived from original, while Ref24 and Ref11 have it.

Can you elaborate on this point. I am not getting it. --gppande «talk» 16:50, 6 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Even the Refs are not up to the FA mark. For example, the publisher of REF36 is www.wr.indianrail.gov.in. Instead it should be Western railways. Ofcourse, this is not exhaustive. This appears in many references.

I am not sure whats the difference? The site is about western railways only. Can you explain more?

Yes, Check REF38.
"Organisation", www.wr.indianrail.gov.in. Retrieved on 2008-07-04.
It should be ("Organisation", Western Railways. Retrieved on 2008-07-04.)
The domain is already mentioned in the URL. So rementioning domain is redundancy. It doesn't look neat atleast for a FA. The publisher (www.wr.indianrail.gov.in. ) should be replaced by (Western Railways). This should be done for all the references. Kensplanet^Talk_E-mail^{Contributions} 13:30, 22 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, this was a big task and took some time for me get it right for all. I checked all refs and corrected them. If still anyone strikes then let me know and I will fix it. --gppande «talk» 20:04, 23 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I am convinced with the corrections. However keep checking and improving. Kensplanet^Talk_E-mail^{Contributions} 14:30, 24 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Ref19 is not in proper format. Title in Capitals. Publisher surely can be better than mospi.gov.in.

I don't think there can be any better source for census data(past & present) than mospi.gov.in. The site is Indian central government website with data for all major metros of India and shows past and present population in a very good tabular format. Infact, this information added by me, has been similarly added on other major metro articles of India like

Kochi#Demographics, etc... --gppande «talk» 12:00, 4 July 2008 (UTC)[reply

]

The source is 100% Reliable. I meant instead of just putting mospi.gov.in., why don't you put Government Of India: Ministry Of Statistics And Programme Implementation---Kensplanet (talk) 17:19, 4 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Done.

• 1 more deadlink REF34 (http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/cms.dll/articleshow?art_id=19195158)
• REF18 (Publisher Economic Times repeated again)

For the two points immediately above used 1 ref only. Problem with ET and ToI is they keep moving articles to the new sister projects they make. I have changed the link to http://infotech.indiatimes.com/articleshow/19249001.cms --gppande «talk» 14:50, 28 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• There's a problem with REF24 (http://www.taindia.com/history.htm)
  It doesn't back this sentence In the 19th century, the textile and garments industry developed and thrived in the city — on 30 May 1861 Ranchhodlal Chhotalal founded the first Indian textile mill, the Ahmedabad Spinning and Weaving Company Limited. completely.
  I just found one sentence relevant (Sjt. Ranchhodlal Chhotalal broke the ice by starting the first spinning mill in Shahpur (1861).)
  Problems are it doesn't clarify whether the Ahmedabad Spinning and Weaving Company Limited was the first Indian textile mill. Kensplanet^Talk_E-mail^{Contributions} 11:56, 25 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

As per your wish, one more ref added. --gppande «talk» 13:12, 25 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Will work. Kensplanet^Talk_E-mail^{Contributions} 13:16, 28 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Three corporators are elected from each ward, who in turn elect a mayor in Civic administration. REF17 (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/323278.cms) doesn't state this. Kensplanet^Talk_E-mail^{Contributions} 15:11, 24 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ref 16 shows that there are 43 wards. Ref 17 has Of the 129 seats. Do the maths. --gppande «talk» 16:19, 24 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

When did I mention anything about Ref 16 shows that there are 43 wards. Ref 17 has Of the 129 seats. I just said that REF17 doesn't back this sentence Three corporators are elected from each ward, who in turn elect a mayor in Civic administration. Kensplanet^Talk_E-mail^{Contributions} 17:19, 24 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Obviously the mayor is not self proclaimed nor appointed but elected amongst the civic body members. Anyways, one more ref added...please keep striking out things. --gppande «talk» 18:44, 24 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Please clarify how do REF20 and REF21 back the sentence (Three corporators are elected from each ward, who in turn elect a mayor) in Civic administration. Kensplanet^Talk_E-mail^{Contributions} 11:42, 25 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Completely, rewrote. Check now. --gppande «talk» 16:49, 25 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well, impressed with CITY DEVELOPMENT PLAN AHMEDABAD 2006-2012 PDF provided. To help the reader, you must also mention the Page No. You can't expect the reader to search the entire PDF. Thats at page 130. But REF24 and REF25 do not support any claims there. I suggest you to remove them. The PDF is more than enough. Kensplanet^Talk_E-mail^{Contributions} 13:45, 28 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• REF27 gives a Page not found error. Kensplanet^Talk_E-mail^{Contributions} 12:03, 25 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The link http://www.rediff.com/money/2007/dec/11spec.htm works perfectly. --gppande «talk» 13:12, 25 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

1. The city is home to a major population of Parsis and a community of 300 Bene Israel Jews living in Ahmedabad. - REF41 (http://www.jcpa.org/jl/jl101.htm) doesn't seem to support the unstriked claim. I haven't heard Ahmedabad is home to a major population of Parsis. I thought only Bombay s home to a major population of Parsis. Thus, again citation is required.

Well, you must have heard that Parsis first came to Gujarat in India and later moved to Mumbai. Their language is somewhat related to Gujarati for the same reason. Anyways, Done. --gppande «talk» 16:16, 1 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

1. Ahmedabad enjoys great religious diversity. seems quite peacock.

Removed.--gppande «talk» 10:16, 2 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

1. The military base near the city, and government institutions such as ONGC, bring an influx of people from across India. - Citation required here.

Done.

• Ahmedabad also has a second cricket stadium at the Ahmedabad Municipal Corporation's Sports Club of Gujarat, which, as the home ground of the Gujarat cricket team is the venue for domestic tournaments such as the Ranji Trophy, the Duleep Trophy and many inter-school and collegiate tournaments.

(http://content-ind.cricinfo.com/india/content/ground/57852.html) no way backs these facts. Please add better sources. Kensplanet^Talk_E-mail^{Contributions} 14:53, 24 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Check now. For the ref of Gujarat cricket team you would have to check that article. No of cite saying teams plays in Ranji trophy as per WP standards. --gppande «talk» 16:47, 28 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It shouldn't be so difficult to include those articles as REFS in the Ahmedabad article. You can't expect the reader to do that. Either include all those articles or remove the claims.Kensplanet^Talk_E-mail^{Contributions} 11:26, 1 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, now read this Wikipedia:Citing_sources#When_to_cite_sources. There is no need to cite the lines about stuff which have their own articles. These citations can go in the child article if the link is provided on parent article. Otherwise the parent article like Ahmedabad will be overloaded with citations. I learnt this from Nichalp :-) --gppande «talk» 15:48, 1 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps overloading would occur only when there are excess of citations. Currently, the article is lacking citations. So, I recommend citations. It shouldn't be so difficult. Just provide 2 citations, one providing coverage of the Ranjith Trophy tournament at that stadium. Other providing coverage of the Duleep Trophy tournament at that stadium. Kensplanet^Talk_E-mail^{Contributions} 17:35, 1 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe my mention of word "overload" took you to this message. But it is not a question of overload or lack of citations. It is a policy. But I still think the cricket section is clean. Duleep trophy mention has been removed. Gujarat team exists as per citation's on it's page and 2nd ground is home ground of team is cited using ref. So there should be no problem. Strike this out. --gppande «talk» 09:56, 2 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Ahmedabad has a second cricket stadium at the Ahmedabad Municipal Corporation's Sports Club of Gujarat, which, as the home ground of the Gujarat cricket team is the venue for domestic tournaments such as the Ranji Trophy, the Duleep Trophy and many inter-school and collegiate tournaments

Formatted. Sports section now is clean. --gppande «talk» 15:19, 19 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It needs References rather than formatting since I don't beleive any of the mentioned data. Kensplanet^Talk_E-mail^{Contributions} 13:55, 22 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Please check. All sentences have been referenced and data without references has been removed. --gppande «talk» 19:32, 23 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Strike out please --gppande «talk» 21:18, 24 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, cannot strike as per below. Kensplanet^Talk_E-mail^{Contributions} 11:31, 25 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Gujarat cricket team is home to the ground as can been seen from Cricinfo. Other things removed. --gppande «talk» 18:00, 25 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well it does say that but the REF doesn't say that it has hosted Ranjith troph, duleep trophy. inter-school and collegiate tournaments is fine. Perhaps providing REFS of the evnts or matches of the ranjith, duleeep will help or remove the Ranjith troph, duleep trophy thing. Kensplanet^Talk_E-mail^{Contributions} 13:10, 28 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• In the Sports section, these sentences should be cited....(The stadium has frequently served as venue for matches during major tournaments such as the 1987 Cricket World Cup, the 1996 Cricket World Cup and the 2006 ICC Champions Trophy.).........(Ahmedabad has a second cricket stadium at the Ahmedabad Municipal Corporation's Sports Club of Gujarat, which, as the home ground of the Gujarat cricket team is the venue for domestic tournaments such as the Ranji Trophy, the Duleep Trophy and many inter-school and collegiate tournaments.)----Kensplanet^Talk_E-mail^{Contributions}

This has now been addressed in the second phase points below. --gppande «talk» 19:53, 19 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This has been already addressed. --gppande «talk» 19:32, 23 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• The Sports section is not at all comprehensive after the corrections. It doesn't satisfy criterion 1(b). Please include the following details.
  Football details
  Chess details
  Golf courses in Ahmedabad
  Car race courses etc...
  Since Ahmedabad is a major city of India having a population of around 4 million, finding these details shouldn't be so difficult. Most of the sentences like Other sports gaining popularity are field hockey, badminton, tennis, and squash. There has been a significant increase in recent years in the number of private sports clubs, gymkhanas, gymnasia and sports teams sponsored by corporations, private associations, schools and colleges. Young people congregate in the evenings to play cricket and football at numerous public and neighbourhood grounds. are all personal opinions. I don't say they are not true. But they are not unique to the city and hence are not much of value. Please add more valuable details which I have mentioned above to satisfy current FA criteria. Kensplanet^Talk_E-mail^{Contributions} 18:09, 2 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Information about ICL team, skating, Table tennis, karting, golf course, shooting, sports facilities and clubs added. Info about chess is already present in the article. --gppande «talk» 12:15, 3 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

UNRESOLVED ISSUES

• Keep All points from phase I & II objections have been addressed. Phase III objections have been dealt with swiftly. Also Dwaipayanc has added citations from books and addressed concerns. If anything is left please highlight as there are too many repeatition of points in various phases and there are chances I may have missed any. It was nice review on part of Kensplanet which helped an existing FA to get clean. --gppande «talk» 13:18, 24 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

All points haven't been addressed. I'll strike them if they have been addressed. Please have a glance. For example, Temple News Issue. Kensplanet^Talk_E-mail^{Contributions} 13:43, 24 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

PLEASE NOTE: Please keep on adding references to text which can be challenged. Do not wait for me to pick up sentences. Kensplanet^Talk_E-mail^{Contributions} 14:24, 24 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

COMMENTS

• Comment. What is the rationale in using Lakh as a unit in the article? It is very peculiar and confusing to most readers and I don't know what does it add to the article. Eklipse (talk) 19:05, 27 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Lakh, which is an unit in Indian numbering system, is used in Indian subcontinent related articles, alongside million and billions. This usage is recommended in Wikipedia:WikiProject Indian cities. That's why this unit is used, besides million.--Dwaipayan (talk) 20:22, 27 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• REF20 (http://www.undp.org.in/dmweb/hazardprofile.pdf) is also a deadlink. Kensplanet^Talk_E-mail^{Contributions} 13:01, 28 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have added another ref for seismic zone and removed cyclone info. --gppande «talk» 13:39, 3 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Some sentences not cited by their corresponding References (in Demographics)

1. There are 886 females to every 1000 males.

Done.

Not Done until you prove that it is for the city and not for the district. Kensplanet^Talk_E-mail^{Contributions} 08:21, 8 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Removed. --gppande «talk» 14:36, 10 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

1. Ahmedabad has a literacy rate of 79.89%, which is the highest in Gujarat; 87.81% males and 71.12% females are literate. (unstriked claim is not cited)
2. Since its founding, the city has attracted migrant workers from other areas of Gujarat, including Kutch and Saurashtra, and from the neighbouring states of Rajasthan and Maharashtra as well as the Pakistani province of Sindh. (Well, we think migration is easily possible between two states. Hence, citation is not necessary. But when it comes to foreign countries, the data needs to be cited.
3. According to the 2001 census, 84.62% of the people in Ahmedabad are Hindu, 11.4% Muslim, 2.92% Jain,and 0.72% Christian. How is this sentence possible when http://www.censusindiamaps.net/page/Religion_WhizMap1/housemap.htm only has details of districts, states and not of cities. Can you clarify from where have you taken the data from.

Sure, Select Ahmadabad and religion on left on the page and click the district in blue on map. A pop up will come up which will then show data for rural, urban and total. Select Urban data.

--gppande «talk» 16:25, 1 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Just some clarifications required. This article is about Ahmedabad city and not Ahmedabad district. The stats give details about the district and not the city alone. The urban data may provide details of Ahmedabad city along with some other urban centres in the district. The stats say that the urban Population is 4663533 which may be the stats of the district. Perhaps we must concentrate only on the city and not the district. Kensplanet^Talk_E-mail^{Contributions} 17:00, 1 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Removed. --gppande «talk» 14:36, 10 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

1. Slightly less than half of all real estate in Ahmedabad is owned by "community organizations" (i.e. cooperatives), and "the spatial growth of the city is to the extent contribution of these organizations. - I think this sentence should be under economy.

• Since Ahmedabad is a major city of India, the demographics must have these details for comprehensibility purposes and to satisfy current FA standards:
  

Crime statistics
Migrant statistics (in numbers and not in words)
Population density
ethnic breakup (again in numbers and not in words)

Crime info added. Population density is already present in infobox. I feel demographic section is quiet elaborate now and meets FA standards. So this whole point is done. --gppande «talk» 14:36, 10 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Please note in the Ahmedabad population template in Demographics, The source is not the cCensus of India. The source is T.C.P.O., Ministry of Urban Affairs & Employment according to the site.

Kensplanet^Talk_E-mail^{Contributions} 11:58, 1 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Can you call REF9 (http://books.google.com/books?id=EL4IAAAAQAAJ&dq=1630+famine+ahmedabad&client=firefox-a&source=gbs_summary_s&cad=0) as a reference. It just mentions details about a book. Anyway one of the sentences it is used to cite is The Deccan Famine of 1630-32 wrecked havoc in the city. I searched Deccan Famine within the book. This is what I found (http://books.google.com/books?client=firefox-a&id=EL4IAAAAQAAJ&dq=1630+famine+ahmedabad&q=Deccan+Famine&pgis=1#search) Check it yourself?

I find all fine. --gppande «talk» 14:36, 10 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There's no context to the ref. In what way do you then find it fine?Kensplanet^Talk_E-mail^{Contributions} 10:51, 8 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I do not know about all the other references. However, since I added this particular reference, I know well about this ref. I have provided the page number, and the book is available online in its entirety(in PDF as well). Please go to page 58 and 59, and read what it says. It says explicitely what happened during the famine in Ahmedabad. Thanks.--Dwaipayan (talk) 23:36, 8 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I downloaded the pdf and it checks out. I added a bit more detail and page numbers to the ref. [9] --maclean 17:21, 10 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• The same deal with REF10 (http://books.google.com/books?id=SZ3lI4LANVcC&pg=PA283&dq=ahmedabad+mughal+rule+ended+maratha&lr=&client=firefox-a&sig=ACfU3U2XnjW9XUYnc1JNCrb-xLn7vnYYWg#PPA283,M1)

Kensplanet^Talk_E-mail^{Contributions} 08:34, 8 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I find all fine. --gppande «talk» 14:36, 10 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I feel Kensplanet is making one wrong idea here. The book references that are given are not necessarily available online. The hyperlink of most book references is a hyperlink for the title, not the page. If you wish, we can remove that title hyperlink. You have to go the particular page mentioned to see the reference. That you can do either by physically going into the book, or, if the book/that particular page is available online, see that. In case of "(1879) Gazetteer of the Bombay Presidency IV: Ahmedabad. Government Central Press", it is availabe online, so you can go the page mentioned to check. But in case of "Prakash, Om (2003). Encyclopaedic History of Indian Freedom Movement. Anmol Publications Pvt Ltd, 282–284. ISBN 8126109386.", the book is not available online. That does not mean you can question the reference!!!

Regarding your search on the famine in the Gazzetteer book, you did not even need to search! Go the page mentioned, and you will see it :) Regards.--Dwaipayan (talk) 17:17, 10 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Voting

• Keep. Similar quality as other city FAs. As Kensplanet points out additional info can be added here and there, but that is true with all such broad article topics. As stated in the criteria, I believe "it neglects no major facts or details". --maclean 19:08, 7 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Well there are many issues which need to be resolved before you support it. Forget, the additional info, the article has many referencing problems. Here are some more. Kensplanet^Talk_E-mail^{Contributions} 07:30, 8 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Please continue to list concerns. As Gppande is active in responding I trust we will be able to save this. --maclean 17:21, 10 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
• Strong keep I support Maclean25. Almost all objections are addressed in this one of the most lengthiest FAR. --gppande «talk» 14:36, 10 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article review. Please do not modify it. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page or at Wikipedia talk:Featured article review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was kept by User:Marskell 13:21, 7 August 2008 [10].

1896 Summer Olympics

Review commentary

Notified:

Overall, although I hope it stays featured, it will need quite a bit of work to do so. Giants2008 (talk) 20:44, 11 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Notifications request Please complete the nomination by following the instructions at the top of

See above. Giants2008 (talk) 21:12, 11 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• I haven't gone through the article yet, but I do just want to note that "master" is somewhat of a term of art in fencing, and refers in this context to those who teach fencing for payment. This makes them professionals rather than amateurs, which in all of the other sports would have disqualified them from Olympic competition. In 1896 and 1900, separate events were held for masters and amateurs. It is a technical term; does this need to be clarified? As for citations, much of the information does come from the Lampros report, which is available online for any helpful people who have some time to go through it to find the specific references. -- Jonel (Speak to me) 21:51, 11 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • • Fencing was the only event professionals were allowed to participate in.--Yannismarou (talk) 13:30, 6 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • I should also mention that the existing references are poorly formatted, and a couple are of questionable reliability. Giants2008 (talk) 22:09, 15 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • I'll work a bit on the article, but I cannot promise that I'll be done within the time limits.--Yannismarou (talk) 11:38, 18 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

FARC commentary

Suggested FA criteria concerns are prose (1a), referencing (1c), POV (1d), and images (3). Marskell (talk) 09:20, 4 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: As you can see, I've initiated some improvements, but I still have to go through some sub-sections of the "Sport by sport overview" section.--Yannismarou (talk) 12:19, 4 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• I have to say Remove at this stage. It needs a thorough prose-massage and MOS check. TONY (talk) 11:26, 17 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• I agree the prose needs some "masaging", but I think that with a nice copy-editing the article is ok. After all it is not such a long article! So, I address an open invitation for a copy-editing to help this article keep its star. I can improve everything else but prose is my weakness! As far as MoS is concerned, I do not see any major issues.--Yannismarou (talk) 15:57, 17 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Copy-edited by Casliber.--Yannismarou (talk) 08:26, 23 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
• I am reviewing the entire article section by section. I am making edits where I feel they are necessary only for prose not content. H1nkles (talk) 18:52, 30 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks.--Yannismarou (talk) 19:36, 30 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• If anyone is working on this, there are still issues.
  WP:MOSNUM issues, and some citation work needed still. Missing accessdates, missing NBSPs. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:10, 23 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
  ]

• Worked a bit with nbsps and ndashes. Missing accessdates? I do not think so. I am not good in charts; I thus do not intend to intervene there.--Yannismarou (talk) 16:55, 23 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• There were a few references without accessdates, which I fixed myself. Do Google Books links need accessdates? If so, I can add them where needed. I believe I caught the number issues as well. The article has improved since I nominated it, but I'm not sure if this matches the quality of new featured articles. Giants2008 (17-14) 17:43, 26 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• I do not think Books need accessdates. But Sandy knows better these issues. What exactly do you think that it is not up to FA standards?--Yannismarou (talk) 18:14, 27 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Here is a review similar to the kind I do at FAC

• Images should not be left-aligned directly below second-level headings. I'm not sure how the links to event articles factor into this.
• "Panathinaiko Stadium, the first big stadium in the modern world, overflowed with the largest crowd ever to watch a sporting event." The largest crowd part is not mentioned later. Also, consider placing "at the time" after this to avoid confusion.

• I do not know; mentioning it again in the main text looked to me a bit repetitive. After all it is cited, and the main text treats again the crowd of spectators in the opening ceremony. About at the time, do you mean editing:"overflowed with the largest crowd ever to watch a sporting event at the time."?

• That's exactly what I mean. There have obviously been larger crowds at sporting events since then. Giants2008 (17-14) 15:45, 4 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Corrected as I can see. Probably by H1nkles.--Yannismarou (talk) 17:48, 4 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Reviving the Games: "French pedagouge and historian Pierre de Coubertin's idea was to revive the ancient Greek Olympics, but in the form of an international multi-sport event." Picky, but since the idea hasn't been mentioned, this should probably be "French pedagouge had historian Pierre de Coubertin had an idea to revive the ancient Greek Olympics, but in the form of an international multi-sport event."

• See my new edits. I hope they are towards the right direction.--Yannismarou (talk) 11:25, 31 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• So the "but" in the previous item makes sense, how about a brief mention that the Ancient Games were an all-Greek thing?

• Per above.--Yannismarou (talk) 11:25, 31 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Delink Paris and London. I also noticed country links in the event reports, including France and the United States. These can go too.

• Done. And I went through all the wikilinks to choose the most appropriate, and avoid repetitions (althoug wikilinking can never be perfect).--Yannismarou (talk) 10:46, 31 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• "Concerned that a six-year waiting period might lessen the public interest." I think "the" can be removed.

• Done.--Yannismarou (talk) 10:46, 31 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• De Coubertin doesn't need his first name used again.

• Done.--Yannismarou (talk) 10:46, 31 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Organization: "by the Greek public, media, and the royal family." Second word of this should be the only the required.

• Done.--Yannismarou (talk) 10:46, 31 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Events: Football and cricket were linked earlier.

• Done.--Yannismarou (talk) 10:46, 31 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Rowing and yachting was scheduled" Grammar. Change it to "were scheduled".

• Done.--Yannismarou (talk) 10:46, 31 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I did some work myself a while back and am happy with how this is coming along. Obviously I didn't catch everything, and I don't like to make edits to FACs or FARs if the changes could be disputed. You've gotten a lot of help for this and it's starting to show. Please keep at it. Giants2008 (17-14) 21:31, 30 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Moving here from my talk page H1nkles' relevant remarks:

• "I am working on editing the copy of the article and I had some questions, under the section entitled "Orangization" you talk about a statue being unveiled to honor the contributions of George Averoff. You say this statue was unveiled on April 5 but you don't indicate what year. Do you know the year? 1895 or 1896?:

• 1896. Cited.--Yannismarou (talk) 15:10, 31 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• "Also you describe the stadium as having a straight running track of 232 meters.... Is this the pre or post-renovation description? This part is a little ambiguous and you may want to consider removing unless we can find a full description of the renovations that Averoff commissioned for the stadium. There are brief descriptions under the Wikipedia articles for Averoff and Panathinaiko Stadium but it isn't enough to fully explore the topic." H1nkles (talk) 20:49, 30 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Agreed. I will reinstate the phrase only if I am capable of citing it (which seems to me difficult).--Yannismarou (talk) 15:10, 31 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
• Yes I looked for more information on the renovations of the stadium, but it is very difficult to find anything of substance. The stadium was the center piece of the Games and I think a section on the unique qualities of the stadium would only enhance and support this article. I'll continue to research. H1nkles (talk) 18:23, 1 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Under "Athletics" subheading Spyridon Louis is listed as a 'water-carrier'. Was this is profession? I thought he was a shepherd. The Spyridon Louis article also says he was a water carrier, but several sites list him as a shepherd: [11], [12]. Does someone know more than me on this subject? Am I missing something? H1nkles (talk) 16:36, 1 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Very interesting and accurate remark. Well, all the official sites present him as shepherd. But a series of Greek sites (most of them newspapers articles) present him as a water carrier (νερουλάς)! My feeling says that my compatriots know something more, but the official sites are official sites, and per WP:Reliable sources we should follow them!--Yannismarou (talk) 17:55, 4 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• I have gone through the article word by word looking for improvements. I've made several edits and would appreciate it if a more experienced editor would review the article as it currently stands, and give input on further areas where polish is needed. Thanks H1nkles (talk) 15:45, 3 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks to you too. After much copy-editing, the article is close, but let's see what other problems I can find. Picking up from where I left off...

• Athletics: "winning with times of 12.0 and 54.2 seconds and with relative ease." The prose can be improved, and I'm not sure if the last part is POV (with relative ease). It would probably be better to state how much he won by.

• Already rephrased as I can see.--Yannismarou (talk) 18:05, 4 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Cycling: "In the track events, the best cyclist was Frenchman Paul Masson, winning the..." Don't think "winning" works well here. "Who won" would be correct, I believe.

• Corrected as I can see.--Yannismarou (talk) 18:03, 4 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Fencing: "These professionals were considered gentlemen athletes, just as the amateurs." "Just as the amateurs" can be improved. Maybe "like the amateurs", but I'm not sure if that's encyclopedic.
• Gymnastics: Typo in the stadium name.

• Corrected.--Yannismarou (talk) 18:01, 4 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Shooting: "the shooting competition was comprised of" Try "the shooting competition consisted of".

• Done.--Yannismarou (talk) 18:00, 4 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• "The second event, for military pistols, was dominated by" People here are sensitive to terms like "dominated", although it's not the most blatant POV I've ever seen. I'd like to see it stated that John Paine won the event, if only to help the end of the paragraph (relatives both winning Olympic events).

• Rephrased.--Yannismarou (talk) 18:38, 4 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• "The Paine brothers did not compete in the 25 meter pistol event, as their weapons were judged to be not of the required caliber." Last part of this can be improved. Also, has anybody ever claimed that this was sour grapes on the part of the Greeks?

• Rephrased the sentence. Interesting question though I would speculate that a rule such as the required caliber for a specific event would be clearly spelled out prior to the event. H1nkles (talk) 19:02, 4 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• He! He! Well, H1nkles, nothing was very clear in 1896!--Yannismarou (talk) 16:26, 5 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• "when Georgios Orphanidis was celebrated as the champion." Perhaps say why he was celebrated (home-country winner).

• I changed "celebrated" to "crowned". I interpreted this sentence to be just a different way of saying that Georgios Orphanidis won the event, rather than to say that there were special celebrations because he had won. The context of this section seems to lend weight to this interpretation though I will certainly defer to the author's opinions. H1nkles (talk) 19:02, 4 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Swimming: "The 1896 swimming competition was held in the open ocean, this due to the fact that the organizers had refused..." This is tighter: "The swimming competition was held in the open ocean because the organizers had refused..."

• Done.--Yannismarou (talk) 17:46, 4 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• "The water off the bay in early April is notoriously cold" Flip notoriously cold and early April, and check the tense (is).

• Absolutely correct. How did I miss that?! Corrected.--Yannismarou (talk) 17:46, 4 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
• That was my fault sorry.--H1nkles (talk) 18:05, 4 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

As the nominator, I can say that this is just about there in my mind. After these are done, ask Sandy if her complaints are resolved. Keep up the great work. Giants2008 (17-14) 16:33, 4 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Ah, come on, Giants; you and Yannis know the standards as well as I do. If you both say it's fine, it probably is (I'm short on time and I hadn't entered a remove, I trust you two :-) I don't think Elcobbola would be pleased about those decorative flags, though. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 08:55, 5 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• "Γηράσκουμε αεί διδασκόμενοι (we always learn while getting older)" Sandy! And FAC criteria are evolving all the time!--Yannismarou (talk) 16:26, 5 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Keep, as there has been a lot of work on this article. For my review, I looked at the opening FARC diff (here) and compared it to the current version, 259 edits later as of a minute ago. Sourcing is much improved, formatting is much improved, and the article is now in good shape. I concur with Sandy about the flags, but that's a minor issue; I'm not seeing any other items that would preclude a Keep here. UltraExactZZ ^Claims ~ Evidence 13:56, 5 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Guys, I have no problem to remove the flags, but two years now (and I've worked on some FACs and FARCs!) I was never good with all these flags, templates, images formatting etc. stuff! As I see it now, it pleasures my eye ... If you want me to tell you the specific WP rule on the issue ... Hmmm ... You got me! On these issues I work all the time with my instict!--Yannismarou (talk) 16:26, 5 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm on the fence, myself; I try to avoid elements such as the flags, but I'm not seeing a method to convey the information here that is as concise and clear as the flags - So, in the absence of an alternative, I'd leave them. I agree that it looks good, hence the Keep. Good work, btw. UltraExactZZ ^Claims ~ Evidence 12:28, 7 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• After making a couple more edits earlier, put me down as a keep. Great effort by everyone here, although I still don't have Sandy's level of knowledge of the FA standards. I'm getting there, though. :-) Giants2008 (17-14) 20:31, 6 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article review. Please do not modify it. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page or at Wikipedia talk:Featured article review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was kept by User:Marskell 08:39, 5 August 2008 [13].

Helium

Review commentary

Notified Wikipedia:WikiProject Elements and User:Mav.

FA Criterion

1c -- verifiability.

In my opinion, this is an excellent article with respect to content, style, and comprehensiveness. However, I find the sourcing deficient. Perhaps the de facto FA standards were looser in 2005, or perhaps the article itself changed, but the current situation is that a large fraction of the factual statements in the article do not have a reference. I can add {{

• The second half of Compounds
• The end of Extraction and use
• Most of Applications
• The last paragraph of Gas and plasma phases
• Parts of Helium I state and Helium II state
• The second half of Scientific discoveries
• Last paragraph in Natural abundance
• Half of Modern extraction

I don't doubt that much of the evidence may be in some of the references already cited, or perhaps in the general references listed at the end. But where? I'm especially concerned about numerical data and certain factual statements. Just to give an example, there is the statement "an estimated 3.4 litres of helium per year are generated per cubic kilometer of the Earth's crust". I wonder, where did this number come form? There are many cases like this. All the numbers in the article have to come from somewhere, and it should be clear to the reader where. --Itub (talk) 09:09, 20 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

*sigh* And it seems like it was just yesterday that we finished reviewing Hydrogen. I'm fairly busy in terms of Wikipedia, and I'm about to get very busy in real life. However, because mav is planning a trip to Egypt, I'll try to get on this so he can enjoy himself. Please allow me a little time to get started - I want to finish copyediting Candide first. My plan of action will then be to review the sources already used to see if they cover other material. Then I'll go about trying to find new sources. Huzzah! --Cryptic C62 · Talk 14:01, 20 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The article has not degraded since the last review. The issue is that standards have increased. I'll see what I can do later tonight and tommorrow; be patient, I'll probably want to expand the article as well. --mav (talk) 16:22, 21 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Tried to add some refs. The last paragraph in Natural abundance needs thestatment that only He4 is radiogenic and all the He3 here on erth comes from somewhere else.--Stone (talk) 21:53, 21 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

For the science I found good refs, but for

• Most of Applications
• The last paragraph of Gas and plasma phases

somebody with more knowledge should help me with this.--Stone (talk) 11:47, 23 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm reasonably confident that the online databases to which I have access will be adequate for the Applications section. I'm almost done copyediting Candide, after which I will begin working on this. --Cryptic C62 · Talk 22:55, 25 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It does need work. I wonder whether the Directors might agree to a better timing for you guys? This process works best when the main editors are given reasonable conditions to improve an article. TONY (talk) 03:32, 25 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If you have the time, it might be more efficient to place the {{

Nergaal (talk) 10:44, 1 July 2008 (UTC)[reply

]

Most of the article is referenced now. I added a few references that I could find, and a few {{

cn}}'s in other places. I'm sure that with a few more days of working on this it will be ready. --Itub (talk) 12:12, 1 July 2008 (UTC)[reply

]

I have reordered the sections to something that seems more logica. I have also added refs for several ^[

Nergaal (talk) 00:24, 8 July 2008 (UTC)[reply

]