Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 5

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Resolved

Is Robert Spencer a reliable source in the field of Islam? He is the author of

He is also the director of "Jihad watch" which is considered a hate and Islamophobic website. (Sources:[1], [2]).

I think he violates

I agree - he would certainly seem to qualify as an extremist source (in the sense of being on the fringes). I would be very, very wary of using him as a source for anything much. -- ChrisO 09:31, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

In general, I would agree... At best, he could be cited for a statement of opinion as opposed to a statement of fact. Something along the lines of: According to Robert Spencer, "blah blah Islam is bad blah blah" <citation>. This really depends on whether Mr. Spencer is considered an expert on Islam, and whether his opinions on Islam are notable or not. If he is simply a crank who wrote a book and runs a website, then his opinion does not rate mentioning per

WP:UNDUE. Blueboar

14:06, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Agree, per ChrisO. I remember reading how he has very little in terms of scholarly publications. In addition, I doubt he is considered an expert on Christianity either, if he were trying to do a study on comparative religion.Ngchen 14:52, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Hmmm, on looking into the subject a bit further... I'm not so sure about that... according to our article on him (see: Robert Spencer) he does have some credentials in the field (He has an MA in Early Christianity). He has authored six best selling books on Islam, and has been an op-ed contributer to several mainstreem newpapars. While his views are controversial, he does have notable supporters. So he is not a complete crank.

Extreme? Possibly... but even extreme views might still be considered notable and worthy of discussion in an article. Controversial? Definitely. I don't think we can simply write him off as unreliable, but I do agree that we should be very careful not to give his statements more weight than they deserve. I would definitely say that anything that is included about his views be carefully attributed as being his views, and not stated as absolute fact. It really depends on the article and how he is being used in that article. This one has to be taken on a case by case basis and argued out in the article talk page. I don't think we can make a blanket determination here. Blueboar 15:14, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Note that I have severe doubts on the context in which he is quotable. As an expert on Islam, for example, he has limited qualifications, and might be considered extreme. As a notable critic of Islam, I thought at first he could be considered quotable in relevant situations, except that he then serves as a primary source of criticism, and we should quote instead those who have analysed his work and those of others and can represent his views in reliable secondary sources. Relata refero 20:53, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

I think you slightly misstate

WP:PSTS here... while secondary sources are preferred in general terms, and certainly for any statement of fact, there is no rule in Wikipedia that says we can never cite a primary source. We simply need to do so with extreme care. In fact, when discussing a particular person's views it is better to cite the primary source directly rather than getting it second hand from a secondary source (who might take something the source says out of context). Once again, we have to ask whether we are talking about statements of fact (where we should cite reliable secondary sources) or statements of opinion (where we should attribute the opinion directly and cite the primary source). I really think this gets us far beyond WP:RS... we have to consider what our three core policies (WP:NOR, WP:V and WP:NPOV) say. Please note that I am not arguing that the views of Mr. Spencer should be discussed in an article on Islam... I am simply pointing out that, under some cicumstances, it may be appropriate to do so... and in those circumstances, then we can and should cite him. I don't think we can simply exclude his views as "extremist", or declare his books unreliable by fiat under WP:RS. It depends on the context of what is said in the article. Blueboar

21:28, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't think he qualifies as a reliable source in any way on comparative religion in general. However, I strongly disagree with But I am more concerned with your belief that I have misinterpreted

Max Mueller). I do not claim that this is necessary everywhere - obviously no one would intend it to apply to plot synopses, for example - but for anything even reasonably contentious or challenged, we need secondary sources. Relata refero

15:31, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

If we include a statement such as: According to Robert Spencer, "blah blah Islam is bad blah blah"<citation>, you have to cite exactly where he says this. In this case, it is best to cite the original work and not someone else quoting that work. Note that such wording does not contain any interpretation of the primary source. It simply quotes the source and attributes it to its author. Doing this is definitely not Original Research. Now, if the article contained any further comment on the quote... that would be OR. It would also be OR if we took the statement out of context. Thus the strong caution about using Primary Sources that is contained in WP:NOR... but it is a caution, not a ban. WP:NOR definitely does NOT say we can never use primary sources. There are times when doing so is appropriate, and citing a direct quote is one of them. Blueboar 14:43, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

You are quite wrong. In choosing a quote, we are choosing to represent the author's views. When the author himself is a primary source - "an individual very close to the subject of the article" - then we are, in effect, structuring an argument based on primary sources. In such occasions, we are required to use reliable secondary sources that discuss such arguments as far as possible; wikipedia users ourselves should not be given license to assume we can place all possible statements in the correct context. When Spencer is himself the subject of the article, or primary source, we can quote him directly only if that particular quote is considered relevant by secondary sources, which should also be cited. We should ideally say that "blah blah Islam is murderous blah blah according to notable critic Spencer", but source this to somebody who is an expert on Spencer. Can you seriously look at the second paragraph of this revision of the MM article, my earlier example, and tell me that this is not precisely the kind of OR that a lax approach you suggest to implementation of policy will allow?Relata refero 15:31, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

In the example you raise, the statements being made are not given with direct attribution or quotes. The language used constitutes an editor's interpretation of what MM said. I would say that was OR. But that isn't what I am talking about here. I am talking about directly quoting the source (keeping the statement being quoted in context) and attributing that quote to the source. Doing so is not OR in any way shape or form. But to settle this... I will ask for the opinion of those editing at WP:NOR. Blueboar 16:07, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

No, I think we should exclude his views as "extremist".--Aminz 21:54, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

That source is an Ad hominem attack against him. Yahel Guhan 22:14, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

• I think his views should be allowed to be presented only in "criticism of Islam" and related articles, and then, attributed to him with According to Robert Spencer... I do not believe he is an extremist in his views, but rather partisan. Yahel Guhan 22:14, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Should the The Protocols of the Elders of Zion be used as a resource on Jews? And the source provided by Aminz is a reliable and scholarly one.Bless sins 22:18, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Blueboar and others, here is a reasonable compromise. Spencer's views should be quoted whenever another reliable source quotes it. Thus, if CNN considers some of his views noteworthy, then we quote those views. This ensures that only the most notable of Spencer's views are quoted. Otherwie we shouldn't be quoting extremist views. This is how we treat other extremist sources (such as The Protocols of the Elders of Zion).Bless sins 22:14, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

My view was that he should be given space only in "criticism of Islam" and related articles not because of him being reliable in anyway but because he is a notable critic of Islam: The "criticism of Islam" article is supposed to record notable criticisms of Islam and these criticisms may come from every corner. But in practice we encountered a problem: Spencer is only a contemporary critic of Islam. Islam has been around for hundreds of years. It is thus recentism and undue weight to use him too much. Furthermore most of what is attributed to Spencer does not really belong to him. We should not credit Spencer with the criticisms that he has not himself proposed but is repeating those before him.

In my view we should have a section on "contemporary criticisms" and there we include the new criticisms coming from Spencer and people like him. Right now, the criticism article rely too heavily on Spencer. --Aminz 05:34, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

That sounds about right.... although I would allow for quoting him directly. In any case, I certainly agree that his views should be limited to "criticism" sections and articles and should not be given undue weight. This is really more of a WP:NPOV issue than one of RS. Blueboar 14:48, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

As I say in my reply above, his views are notable in relevant articles, but WP editors should not be given license to decide which of his views are. Experts on Spencer or on the criticism of Islam more generally should. Relata refero 15:33, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Absolulte rubbish... While we can debate whether it is appropriate to discuss Mr. Spencer and his views in any given article, if you are going to discuss his views you should quote him directly, and with proper citation so that editors can check to see that the quote is in context. I seriously doubt that there are "Experts on Spencer" to quote. Blueboar 16:36, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Hold your horses. Why should we trust editors to check the context? Show me the policy that says that. And as for 'experts on Spencer', I meant, of course, experts on the criticism or political controversies surrounding Islam who discuss Spencer, of which there are many. Relata refero 17:39, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

...and the names are? Beit Or 09:07, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

But again, that is not what I am talking about. I am saying that, as a noted critic of Islam, it might be appropriate to discuss what Spencer has to say. Once that discision has been made we have to deside how to use him. Now, given his biased (and possibly even extremist) views, I would not use him to support a bald statement of fact (ie "Islam is blah blah blah"), but instead we should use him only for a statement of opinion (ie "According to noted Anti-islamist Robert Spencer, 'Islam is blah blah blah'"). And if you do that, you should cite the quote to where Spencer says this. No more, no less. And while there is no rule that says editors have to check that sources are in context... I know plenty of editors who do check them. I know I do... Since I edit on some fairly controvercial topics, I frequently check the sources in criticims sections, and make sure that POV editors are not taking things out of context. I agree that, all to frequenlty, such quotes are used in ways that constitute OR. But (and this is a big "but") quoting someone directly is not automatically a form of OR. It can be done properly... As long as you keep the quote in context, and do not go beyond what the source is saying, it isn't OR. Blueboar 18:03, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

this passage may be of relevance from

ITAQALLAH

18:45, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Itaquallah, in this case, there already is a well established Criticism of Islam article. And, in that article, it would be appropriate to discuss what Spencer has to say (he is, after all, a noted modern Critic of Islam). The key is not to give his views undue weight, and not to present his views as being fact, but only as his opinion. Also, according to the folks over at WP:NOR, he counts as a secondary source on Islam. Thus, the cautions about primary sources do not really apply. I would still use him sparingly and with caution, but the point is that he can be used. Blueboar 19:00, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Comment on definitions used in above discussions: Spencer is not a primary source on Islam. He's a secondary source. He may not be a good source, he may be a "one trick pony" who writes of nothing else, he may not be a source worthy of note, but he is a secondary source. Examples of primary source texts on Islam would be the Koran or Hadith texts. Neither primary sources nor secondary sources are totally unacceptable sources in every situation, so I think it would be more constructive to the dispute to focus on whether or not Spencer's views are worthy of note in a general encyclopedia. For example, where else in academia is he being cited? If the claims on the wp article about him are accurate, then his views appear notable but controversial. Where and when controversial sources can be used is the core issue here, and the "primary source" objection is just a misapplied technicality to excuse ruling out this particular source.Professor marginalia 19:06, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

this is how i see the issue (corrections welcomed): Spencer is a secondary source on Islam (albeit unreliable). he is, however, a primary source for his own views on Islam (meaning, he's a primary source for criticism). when the actual article subject is critical views, such as

ITAQALLAH

19:29, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

just to clarify, this works both ways as well. in an article on `Muhammad in Islamic piety` (as a theoretical example), those texts in the form of pious or devotional passages, or other texts reflecting Islamic views, would constitute primary sources in relation to the topic, while studies on such texts and ideas would be secondary sources.

ITAQALLAH

19:35, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

<unindent> Confirming my agreement with Itaqallah, Spencer appears not to be a reliable secondary source to base the article on, but in terms of WP:NPOV his views may be notable enough to be represented as a minority view, subject to undue weight requirements. He's a primary source for that view, and if notable enough then there should be reliable sources about his view from a mainstream perspective, which should be used as the basis for the section. However, like all primary sources, he can be cited and, if appropriate, quoted for his views providing care is taken not to introduce original research in interpreting or citing quotes out of context. .. dave souza, talk 19:57, 22 October 2007 (UTC) There is a logical disconnect here... Can someone explain difference between Spencer discussing Islam (where you say he is a secondary source) and Spencer criticising Islam (where you say he would be a primary source)? Are you saying that if he is saying something positive about Islam he is secondary, but that he suddenly becomes primary when saying something negative? Blueboar 21:09, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Not at all. It depends not on what he is saying, but what the subject of the article is. If we are considering quoting him about Islam, whether or not he is reliable, whether or not he is critical, he is a secondary source. If we need material for an article on Criticism of Islam, whether or not he is reliable, he is a primary source, as he is one of the most popular living critics of Islam, and as such is a major constituent of the subject of the article. Relata refero 05:06, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

that's not the implication here. speaking in very general terms (this includes Spencer and others) - a partisan (pro- or anti-) source discussing a subject is a secondary source when the article topic is about that subject ("X"). when the article topic itself is the very partisanship of the partisans ("positive/negative view of X") - the original partisan source is no longer secondary, it is primary. that's just how i believe the sources are classified, and why i think a secondary source on

ITAQALLAH

22:20, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

I see that there are RS and NPOV issues, and some PSTS disputes. I suggest focusing on RS, NPOV, and NOR as a whole, without obsessing over PSTS. Jacob Haller 23:39, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

The PSTS issue emerges from OR. The question is who can correctly interpret Spencer's comments and ensure they are taken in context. One solution is that we only quote reliable sources quoting Spencer, making the assumption that reliable sources have done their homework.

Another issue is what to quote. Certainly some of Spencer's opinions are notable and certainly some aren't, and we should quote only notable opinions. One very reasonable way determining which opinion are notable, is that the notable opinion will have appeared in reliable sources, while non-notable opinion will be ignored by reliable sources.

Finally, saying that Spencer is unreliable, but still may be quoted is setting a dangerous precedent. If unreliable, yet popular sources, such as Spencer can be used, then what else? Can I use the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, quite popular, to talk about the Jews? (Obviously not, nor should I be able to use Spencer).Bless sins 01:10, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

I find it quite appalling that you compare Spencer to Protocols of the Elders of Zion; there really is no comparision. Spencer criticizes Islam (and maybe Muhammad), but doesn't specificly call muslims some of the names Protocols does. Yahel Guhan 01:30, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Both are unreliable sources, as far as WP:RS is concerned. Spencer specifically calls Islam as "the World's most Intolerant Religion". His writings are considered "bigotry similar to anti-Semitism and racial prejudice".[3] Anyways, I got a sufficient response out of this. Whether the Protocols are a reliable source (I beleive they aren't) is the topic of another notice.Bless sins 01:41, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

You think your "resolved" tag is a funny joke, because I don't think it is funny; it really is disruptive, considering the discussion isn't resolved. Reguarding your arguement, Spencer calls "islam" intolerant. That is not bogotry. He doesn't say "all muslims are intolerant" which would be bigotry. That quote is one view, which you seem to be repeating throughout this argue. For criticism sections and articles, though, he is a reliable source, as he is a notable critic. Yahel Guhan 02:33, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Yahel Guhan, when he calls Islam "the World's Most intolerant religion" he is calling all Muslim intolerant. This is because, by definition a Muslim is someone who follows the teachings of Islam. If someone doesn't believe in Islam, then they are not a Muslim.Bless sins 04:34, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

While I agree that you have a point that Spencer needs to be covered in Criticism of Islam article, please note that as demonstrated above, he is not a reliable source in such articles, he is a primary source.Relata refero 08:10, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Relata, I disagree... Spencer is a secondary source (allbeit a biased one), even for criticism's of Islam, and from the comments at the WP:NOR Talk page, others agree with my view of the matter. But... even if he were a primary source, you are incorrect in saying that a primary source is automatically unreliable. You seem to equate reliability with "true" or "unbiased"... that is not the case. Your comparison with the Protocols is off base... what makes the Protocols unreliable is not the fact that it contains all sorts of unsubstantiated, hateful and biased allegations against jews... It is unreliable for a host of other reasons, the main ones being: The original was not reliably published. There is no accountability or editorial oversight... We do not know the author, so it is unattributable, even as a statement of opinion.... In Spencer's case, we do know who wrote it... We know who published it... And when we question the accuracy of what he says, we can phrase things as being Spencer's opinion. Blueboar 13:56, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

I miswrote that: he is a reliable source, but a primary source, and thus to be used with accompanying care. Blueboar, the points you've made on NOR, while interesting, have all been satisfactorily answered, I believe.

I didn't mention the Protocols ( I wouldnt) and the comparison was made precisely because it was claimed that Spencer is a sufficiently extremist source: and, thus, we should avoid using it (though not by me, and I disagree with that.). Relata refero 15:04, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Though I agree that Spencer may be covered on Islam related articles, he should be covered by a reliable secondary source. Why? I'm outlining the problems below.Bless sins 04:34, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

It just doesn't make sense to quote him from second hands when we can quote him directly. Beit Or 08:46, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Section break

Why directly quoting Spencer is inappropriate:

1. Spencer holds some views which are notable, and some views which are non-notable. How do we decide which views are notable? We see if those views have been covered by a reliable secondary source.
2. Quoting Spencer from a reliable source ensures that a reasonable limit is put on how much space he is given.
3. I argue that Spencer is an extremist source per
   WP:RS#Extremist_sources
   , because he is "anti-religious". Am I right? If yes, he "should be used only as source about [him]self and [his] activities in articles about [him]self, and even then with caution." Using a reliable secondary source, however, solves this problem.
4. Finally, if we quote Spencer directly, we are setting a dangerous precedent: namely that popular extremists who are not at all experts in the field may be used as sources. Do we really want wikipedia filled with hate-speech that characterizes the faith of 1.2 billion as "most intolerant", that says that the Quran teaches "cutting people's heads off"[4], that "Islam has always rejected it [reason]",[5] and last but not least "Islam is a violent, expansionary ideology that seeks the destruction or subjugation of other faiths, cultures, and systems of government." [6]?Bless sins 04:34, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

I gave the Protocols as an example. If I dig down deep enough I could find extremist publications that demonize not just Muslims, but Jews, Christians, Hindus, women, non-whites, and all of the publications would be notable. Is this the type of encyclopedia you want?Bless sins 04:34, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Responding to the points above:

1. "Spencer holds some views which are notable, and some views which are non-notable." You postulate this distinction, but provide no evidence that it is in any way meaningful.
2. No, these are good writing, a sense of measure, and adherence to
   WP:NPOV
   that put a limit on how much space is given to any individual author.
3. "Anti-religious" is vague.
   Betrand Russell
   is fiercely anti-religious, but is he not quotable as a critic of religion in general and Christianity in particular? I don't think so.
4. This is based on the assumption that Spencer is an extremist. You have asserted his extremism, but provided no proofs.

Regarding your last paragraph on Jews, Christians etc., please mind

The question of whether he is an 'extremist' is irrelevant to the point that in articles that focus on the subjects to which Spencer is 'close', as in articles about himself, his institute, and critics/criticism of Islam we should, wherever possible, use secondary sources rather than relying on the dubious abilities of wikipedians to extract the most notable and representative strands of his thought.

Extremism is relevant to how much he can be quoted elsewhere, of course. (So is

WP:UNDUE).Relata refero

21:23, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

The Russell example above is interesting in that it might help clarify the approach; in a Criticism of Christianity article, quoting large parts of Why I am not a Christian would clearly be OR; we would need to find a secondary source that would summarise Russell's arguments, delineate their context and importance. In a Criticism of Christianity article clearly Why I am Not a Christian is a source text. Relata refero 21:25, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Relata... I have to respond to one of your points above... you say "I argue that Spencer is an extremist source per

WP:RS#Extremist_sources is to say that religious or anti-religious extremists have limited reliability... not to say that anyone who has a religious or anti-religious view is by definition extremist. Blueboar

21:58, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

As I said before, I have no opinion on whether Spencer himself is extremist, so your points are irrelevant if addressed to me; I suggest those who do think Spencer is extremist should respond. Incidentally, if that is the interpretation of

WP:RS#Extremist, that section needs to be rewritten. And you appear to confuse extremism with militancy. Extremism can be non-militant in nature. Relata refero

09:08, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't understand your argument, Relata. "...quoting large parts of Why I am not a Christian would clearly be OR." Why? Is he an extremist? Is quoting small parts not OR then? I am lost. Beit Or 22:41, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

As I said, extremism has nothing to do with OR. Quoting large parts of a primary source is the very definition of OR. Small parts of a primary source that have been indicated by secondary sources as being central, might perhaps be quoted. Relata refero 09:08, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

How then do you propose writing articles on current events, for instance, where we have primary sources (news reports) only? Beit Or 10:05, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Newspaper reports are not primary sources for events they cover, but are primary sources for articles about the media. Relata refero 08:38, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Blueboar: Yes bieng anti-religious doesn't make you extremist. But holding extreme anti-religious views does. One doesn't need to explicitly call upon the eradication of one religion to be considered an "extremist". Spreading hatred for a particular religion, without calling upon its destruction, is also extreme. Beit Or asked me to find some evidence for Spencer's extremism.

"The publications of Spencer belong to the class of Islamophobic extremism ... bigotry similar to anti-Semitism and racial prejudice." Source:[7] Carl W. Ernst William Kenan Distinguished Professor of Religious Studies and Director of the Carolina Center for the Study of the Middle East and Muslim Civilizations University of North Carolina)Bless sins 10:14, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

One man's remark on his personal website is not sufficient to establish Spencer's extremism. And where and how does Spencer spread hatred for a particular religion? Beit Or 22:44, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

I will also point out that

WP:RS#Extremist_sources starts off by saying that it is talking about: "Organizations and individuals that are widely acknowledged as extremist..." So, I think real question here should be: is Spencer widely acknowledged as an extremist. In other words, before you can write him off as an extremist, you have to show that a whole bunch of reliable sources have called him an extremist. Biased, partisan, POV... all those I will give you. Blueboar

23:02, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Oh my goodness, your opinion of the Guardian is drastically at variance with established consensus and

WP:RS. It has an established reputation for accuracy and fact-checking. Some, mostly American, commentators see it as a haven for ultra-leftism and fabrication, but if that were the case, the UK's notoriously strict libel laws would have knocked it out of business years ago. Excluding the Guardian for facts because of its liberal/social democratic editorial line would be like excluding Canada's National Post because of its conservative/neo-conservative editorial line. <eleland/talkedits

> 14:53, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

I am not a Muslim, but a Christian, and I have read material by Spencer and find it biased and unreliable. In my view Spencer is an anti-Muslim bigot and a conspiracy theorist, and I am not alone

• "Regnery, a conservative publisher, has seen fit to publish another Robert Spencer book, The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam (and the Crusades)1. Perhaps some readers will consider this spiteful and rather vile book a camp classic, a hoot. But we Muslims will not. These assaults hurt, not because they hit home, but because they are so wildly off the mark. Spencer's reckless, scattershot approach harries the Muslim American community and leaves very little ground for moderates and humanists..." Modern-Day Crusader by Adem Carroll, The Public Eye Magazine - Summer 2006.

You don't have to be Muslim to abhor Islamophobia.--Cberlet 13:13, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

From Public Eye's "about us" page: "Political Research Associates is a progressive think tank devoted to supporting movements that are building a more just and inclusive democratic society. We expose movements, institutions, and ideologies that undermine human rights." Nice unbiased source there, c.... Kyaa the Catlord 13:26, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

So they are biased against "movements, institutions, and ideologies that undermine human rights?" Yeah that's a horrible bias. We should add here that the constitution of the United States of America is likewise biased. In fact I think this may be one of the worst systemic biases around in that wretched place we call "the free world." Personally I blame the Enlightenment.PelleSmith 15:03, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Political Research Associates -- SEWilco 15:54, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Excuse me, but you find “Islamophobia” ABHORRING?!?! Anyone in his right mind should be anti-Islam as much as possible. There is nothing good about Islam and if you abhor criticism of Islam, that makes you in alliance with extremists. To criticise Islam, is common sense and a rational thing to do. There is nothing extreme about it. To answer your fallacious arguments: I have read material by Spencer and find it biased and unreliable. — On what grounds? What is unreliable about his books as far as his truthful criticism of Islam goes? How has he misrepresented his sources? Never mind his 'conservative Regnery publisher' because I don't care about which publisher he's released under, what I care about is how Robert Spencer's expertise on Islam meets a

ad populum. Calling Spencer an anti-Muslim is extremely disingenuous. He is simply anti-Jihad, which means, in reality, that he is anti-Islam (as a political and religious ideology). He is not anti every Arab, Indonesian, or whatever. He is simply anti-Islam (and that's good thing). Calling him anti-Muslim is just a false tactic used in order to portray him as some sort of racist (as if Islam had anything to do with race or any kind of racial aspect for that matter). What matters here is Spencer's reliability as a notable critic of Islam, not your left-wing agenda; for the record, User:Cberlet has a long history of political controversy with Robert Spencer's boss, David Horowitz, as can be read more about in this article. This isn't a personal attack on Chip Berlet, but I'm just warning about the political POV here from his part, and that admins must have this in mind that there is a serious NPOV issue going on here. — EliasAlucard (talk · contribs

) 20:56, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

You are totally right. There is a serious NPOV problem here. Lets also warn the admins about the person who posted this: "Anyone in his right mind should be anti-Islam as much as possible. There is nothing good about Islam and if you abhor criticism of Islam, that makes you in alliance with extremists. To criticise Islam, is common sense and a rational thing to do." He/she should probably be topic banned ... don't you think?PelleSmith (talk) 04:39, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

whatever the solution... this verbose, incendiary use of Wikipedia as a soapbox must stop.

ITAQALLAH

14:14, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Topic banned? Why? I personally don't edit Islam related articles that much to begin with, and when I do, I keep my personal POV out of the articles. It's not like I go berserk and add text that says Islam is a tool for terrorism (which is what Islam essentially is; after all, Muhammed himself stated that he had been made victorious with terror[8]). All I demand is that Islam-related articles be more NPOV and allow writers critical of Islam to be reflected in the articles (which is sort of an impossibility right now due to the influence of Muslim Wikipedians tightly controlling the articles; violating

WP:RS. If you're going to topic ban me for being critical of a terrorist religion, then you better make sure you follow through with your logic and topic ban all the atheists working on the Christianity article. — EliasAlucard (talk · contribs

) 05:11, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

From Public Eye's "about us" page: "Political Research Associates is a progressive think tank devoted to supporting movements that are building a more just and inclusive democratic society. We expose movements, institutions, and ideologies that undermine human rights." — How about, we protect movements, institutions, and ideologies that undermine human rights? Seriously, that's Islam in a nutshell, and it seems that the PRA is protecting Islam. — EliasAlucard (talk · contribs) 20:58, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Oh god, I didn't realize that Chip had referred back to the group he's part of in his initial BLP violation on Spencer. Kyaa the Catlord (talk) 01:27, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Yes, it seems more like a political catfight between two different political organisations, rather than anything remotely concerning Spencer's reliability as a critique of Islam. — EliasAlucard (talk · contribs) 04:54, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Al insan al kamil

Al-Insān al-Kāmil#External links is a very good example of how Robert Spencer is being censored on Wikipedia by Muslim Wikipedians trying to push their POV. See the article's history regarding the link to Robert Spencer's entry on al insan al kamil Examples: [9][10] — EliasAlucard (talk · contribs) 04:54, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Spencer is not a scholar on Islam. he isn't in a position to discuss concepts in Islamic or Sufi theology. if you have any academic, non-partisan links or references you'd like to use, please do so.

ITAQALLAH

14:20, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

I respectfully disagree. See his bio in his article. His course of study in university included Islam as a focus. He's not a Muslim theologian, but his degree is related to theology. Kyaa the Catlord (talk) 14:33, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

as far as i know, his MA is in Early Christianity. you don't need to be a Muslim to be a reliable source on Islam. the general required standard on Wikipedia is a qualification in

ITAQALLAH

15:02, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

His degree is Religious Studies, same as the department Esposito chairs. His thesis was on monophysitism and the Church of England, but a religious studies degree doesn't necessarily focus on any one religion, especially in the case of the religions of the Book. They're all very linked and, based on my own experiences, you study them together. (Especially if he focused on early christianity, that's the heart of judaism and islam, the ME). Kyaa the Catlord (talk) 15:08, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

as yourself, i respectfully disagree. i don't believe a general qualification in Religious Studies (and the specific extent of his education in Islam is unknown) necessarily reflects competence in Islamic history, theology, treatises, and associated topics. a contraindication is in the comments of Carl Ernst (part of the same dept. from which Spencer qualified) who dismisses Spencer's credentials and publications.[11]

ITAQALLAH

15:40, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Does it matter if his major was Monophysitism and not Islam? The opposition to Robert Spencer is purely because of his critical books on Islam, not his qualifications to speak on Islamic issues (although, that is being used as a case in point against him). His arguments about Islam are well founded and in perfect agreement with Muslims like Bin Laden and Anjem Choudary. He is not misinterpreting Islam. — EliasAlucard (talk · contribs) 16:33, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

i suppose it's telling that those two aren't scholars either.

ITAQALLAH

16:42, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

I would say they know Islam better than most scholars. — EliasAlucard (talk · contribs) 16:59, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Two professionals in a field, who have strongly held viewpoints will disagree. This doesn't discredit either of them. They are both carrying degrees in the study of religion, of theology and are published authors in the field. Your, my, hell Allah's opinion doesn't matter. They are published authors writing on their field of expertise. Spencer is a notable author writing for a publishing house. This meets our credentials. Because others, and perhaps you, disagree with his statements does not make them any less reliable and it violates

WP:NOR to discredit them in the manner you are attempting to. If you can find rebuttals to his exact statements, those could be used via talk on the articles his words are being used in to discuss the content of his work. He meets RS as it is written. His individual statements... may be up for discussion and review but calmly and in a calculated, reasoned manner. With all due respect, Kyaa the Catlord (talk

) 17:02, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

it's one thing when there is scholarly difference amongst peers (scholars know how to disagree without making it personal), it's another thing when one questions the other's very education on the topic ("... he has no academic training in Islamic studies whatever; his M.A. degree was in the field of early Christianity", says Ernst - i am inclined to believe him, he is an Islamic studies professor at the university from which Spencer graduated). i don't oppose scholars just because i disagree with their views - as one who frequents academic journals, i customarily come across views i am at odds with, whether that is Caetani's, Friedmann's, Crone's, or anyone else's . however, if a writer has a noticable lack in pedigree, does not have his work peer-reviewed by scholars nor published by academic press, then the unreliability is self-evident - irrespective of whether he is Ahmed Deedat or Robert Spencer.

ITAQALLAH

17:26, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

How many times should we discuss Spencer? He is only notable as a critic of Islam but he does not have any reputation as an scholar. --Aminz (talk) 03:28, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Spencer's reputation

According to this reliable sources are "third-party published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy".

What reputation "for fact-checking and accuracy" does Spencer have?

Please don't answer this by arguing Spencer has a degree, because this would imply that anyone with a degree is a reliable source.Bless sins (talk) 03:17, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

See Robert Spencer#Spencer's responses to critics. He seems to be claiming that his critics have failed to show him to be inaccurate. If he were obscure and his work not examined that would be a weak argument. He seems to have provided plenty of material for critics. Google Scholar isn't much help (notice the other Spencers with work before 1980 aren't him). -- SEWilco (talk) 05:08, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

SEWilco, his work doesn't appear to have received peer-review, nor any sort of review in academic publications. as with most polemic, scholars just don't give it the time of day.

ITAQALLAH

16:57, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

What reputation "for fact-checking and accuracy" does Spencer have? — He has never been proven wrong by Muslims. Only personal attacks on his reliability has been made. But never ever have they proven him wrong on Islam. In fact, most Islamist pretty much agree with him on what he's saying about Islam. That said, there's nothing wrong with his reliability as far as Islam is concerned. — EliasAlucard (talk · contribs) 12:21, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

reliability (and reputation) is

ITAQALLAH

16:57, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Spencer meets the criteria at WP:V where it states, and I quote: "In general, the most reliable sources are peer-reviewed journals and books published in university presses; university-level textbooks; magazines, journals, and books published by respected publishing houses; and mainstream newspapers." He is published by Regnery Publishing and Prometheus Publishing. Do you dispute that these publishing houses exist and are, albeit sometimes controversial, respected? Kyaa the Catlord (talk) 17:03, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

a publishing house is not necessarily reliable by default. respected? are they known for peer-reviewed, high quality publications on Islamic studies (or is this where they are, as you say, controversial[14])? (not a rhetorical question) it goes without saying that a publishing house should have a record of competence or pedigree in the topics it publishes on (Regnery's focus appears to be conservative politics and 'Politically Incorrect Guides™') and that is the spirit of the

ITAQALLAH

18:05, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Dear Itaqallah, do you know what a semicolon is? Kyaa the Catlord (talk) 18:37, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

i did indeed pick up on it, but it does not exempt publishing houses from needing to possess some sort of authority in a particular field to be considered a reliable source there. peer-review is a standard facet of most reliable sources.

ITAQALLAH

18:47, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Let me let you in on a very well kept secret. Journals are peer-reviewed. Non-fiction books for the most part are not. They have editors, not a peer-review process. This does not make them not reliable, actually it fulfills the same sort of fact checking required by RS... Kyaa the Catlord (talk) 18:54, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

let's assume that peer review is not a feature of standard published texts in Islamic studies - do you concede that a publisher should be known for good quality academic material/books in the field it publishes (non-academic material is also usable where it is mainstream, see

You do realize that Regnancy has published at least 1 New York Times best selling book? It is a mainstream publishing house. Kyaa the Catlord (talk) 19:47, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

<reset>Kyaa, your first sentence i agree with. lots of books, including some written by Spencer, are known to be best sellers. that simply means that the book has been widely sold - something true for many controversial books which inevitably entice peoples' interest. not that it makes the books - or its publishers -

scholars don't waste their time on every

ITAQALLAH

19:38, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

You keep repasting that Carl Ernst link as if it had any validity at all. You also make it seem like there's some universal scholarly consensus that Spencer is a fraud, by posting that link when you write 'by real scholars'. There has never been any academic debate involving "real" scholars and Robert Spencer where they have proven him wrong. All you have is one shitty scholar who was probably paid to trash Spencer's publisher (as if his publisher had any relevance beside publishing the books). Again, that link is not worthy of paying attention to, simply because it does not focus on his content. Do you understand what I am saying? Either prove Spencer wrong (not his publisher, but Spencer's statements in his book), or just accept that he is right about Islam. do the staunchly anti-darwinist, anti-feminist, anti-liberal stances give it away? — What kind of a question is that? What does anti-darwinism have to do with Spencer's truthful and accurate criticism of Islam? And what's wrong with anti-feminism and anti-liberalism? — EliasAlucard (talk · contribs) 21:02, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Elias, your conditions about whether or not Spencer has been proved wrong have nothing to do with Wikipedia policy - please stop these verbose

ITAQALLAH

21:31, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Does the criticism of the New York Times, Fox News or any other media outlet make them unreliable sources? No. Kyaa the Catlord (talk) 19:47, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

New York Times isn't a

WP:RS in itself to begin with. And Faux News is obviously biased (although they can make a good point every now and then). — EliasAlucard (talk · contribs

) 21:02, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

comparing journalism with academic disciplines doesn't work, IMO. all news media outlets offer a perspective, but at least they are established in their journalism. Regnery's forte is clearly conservative politics - and its publications on that topic might very well be reliable sources (i've not maintained that Regnery is an unreliable publisher as a whole, only that it's evidently not a reliable one in the field of Islamic studies).

however, when it publishes in areas of academic discipline - biology, anthropology, orientalism, and so on - then partisan goals (pro-Islam or anti-Islam, for example) cannot precede scholarly endeavour. to be honest, you've a problem if you find a source or publisher declaring it will challenge mainstream understanding of an academic discipline (that's the impression i get from many of the books in the P.I.G series). when these kinds of publications are rightly criticised as polemic tracts by qualified experts, then that raises a

ITAQALLAH

21:43, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

That is a unique interpretation of WP:V. Whoah. Kyaa the Catlord (talk) 14:55, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Don't use this

This is a no-brainer - we use the author of the book

We link to Chip Berlet's work and Theocracy Watch's work in the

Dominionism-related articles. These sources are as religiously extremist as you alleged Robert Spencer is. We use sources from ALL points of view. Kyaa the Catlord (talk

) 17:36, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

there's a lot to be said about current day muslim intolerance and about past christian violence also. the issue is not that of a flamboyant book title, but whether or not the material inside is considered reliable. Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 19:44, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Chip Berlet's Theocracy Watch (or at least, it's web-site) does not appear to be a home of extremism, nor to pander to the violent and hate-inspired. It specifically targets those with significant political and religious influence/power, and it objects to their apparent interest in introducing religion-based government. It specifically disavows attacking individuals: "This web site is not about traditional Republicans or conservative Christians. It is about the manipulation of people of a certain faith for political power. It is about the rise of dominionists in the U.S. federal government.".

Whereas Robert Spencer's Jihad Watch most probably does pander to the violent and hate-inspired. Today's lead story targets individual clerics and people of a minority faith, linking them directly to the killing of a 16-year old by her family. Imam Alnadvi said that judging from the information he received, hijab was only one of the issues. "This girl she refused to stay at home," he said. "There were feelings that she is going in some wrong direction ... going with some other boy or some other thing." This campaign is directed against a group that understandably feels oppressed, excluded from air-lines, discriminated against in employment and harassed in their charitable works. (Note - I've no problem with him campaigning in this fashion, I might easily agree with him - but that doesn't mean we should treat him as an acceptable source).

Unless you have different evidence to hand, it seems reasonable to describe the former as regular participation in the democratic process and the latter as "extreme", as fails

reliable sources

.

I don't believe there are any circumstances in which you should take it on yourself to interfere with my contributions. PR^talk 17:29, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

PR, it's not just about whether these opinions are extreme or not. it is about whether they are competent to comment in a particular field of study. the question that has been posed here is if Spencer is a reliable source for information on Islam. the answer, taking into consideration his lack of study and competence in this discipline, his publishers' general lack of pedigree in publishing academic works on Islamic studies, and denounciations from qualified scholars in the field, can only be a resounding no.

ITAQALLAH

18:04, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree with you (or perhaps I should say, I'm sure I'd come to an identical conclusion if I examined the output of this writer in more detail). But judging someone's literacy and reliability seems to cause a lot of editors rather a lot of difficulty - in fact, if we could do this reliably, we might discover a lot of dross in the editing pool and save ourselves a whole lot of grief. It's often easier to finger particular sources as "hate-sources" (or, in the more restrained language of the encyclopedia, those expressing "extreme" views).

The advantage of this approach is that we have quite well-understood red-lines eg quoting from Holocaust Deniers is a no-no, liable to lead to an indef-blocking (nobody's even bothered to write that into policy, we just accept it). David Irving is a useful touch-stone, since it's often quite difficult to prove that he was guilty of "gross historical fabrication" (it cost Deborah Lipstad some $10 million to prove, as far as I recall, just a handful of cases). It's much, much easier to prove he's an extremist.

Thats why I contributed as I did - not only is unnecessary (and potentially quite difficult) to prove Spencer cheats - making such allegations raises BLP issues. Hate-sources are barred anyway, on a much lower level of proof. PR^talk 19:55, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Any source on religion is extremeist

No source on religion is un-biased, they are either strongly pro the religion or anti that religion. The idea that Spencer can't be used but hundreds of Imams can be used because they are un-biased about Islam is a joke. ^{(Hypnosadist)} 09:05, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

As I've posted on PR's talk page, its less a matter of Spencer being a reliable source (which cannot be denied seriously) it is more a matter of making certain his views are attributed to him properly and being shown as his viewpoint on a controversial subject not as fact. Kyaa the Catlord (talk) 11:08, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

(which cannot be denied seriously) ... seriously, it can. the evidence for reliability, which, let's face it, is pretty paltry, cannot stand up to the contraindications. use of partisan sources might be accepted on political-oriented articles like Israel/Palestine or Democrat/Republican - but on topics of academic discipline - they aren't. and Hypnosadist, you are grossly mistaken. see the

ITAQALLAH

17:42, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Not all sources on religion are strongly pro or anti. There are many reputable academics who have spent most of their lives studying religion and are capable of writing in a neutral impassionate way, and who have their work peer reviewed to ensure they don't stray from this.

As for the argument over this particular source, I have never heard of him, but it should be pretty simple to establish whether he is a reliable source or not. If his work has previously been published in peer-reviewed academic journals, and he is widely credited by reputable academics as being an authority on Islam, then you should be able to cite these accolades, and that will establish that he is a reliable source. If not, then he isn't a reliable source. The onus is on the editor claiming that a particular person is a reliable source, to establish that he is considered a reliable source by other professionals in the field. Whether or not you personally think that his work is valid, true, or reliable, is irrelevant; the only relevant thing here is the opinion of other experts working in the same field. The fact that he is notable and has a personal opinion is not in dispute, but that doesn't make him a reliable source for anything other than his own article, and perhaps an Opinions of notable people on religion or something similar. Chris Bainbridge (talk) 18:18, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Musings: Why do some editors insist on this type of source?

For the life of me, I can't understand it. Robert Spencer writes on issues that are extensively discussed, debated, and disputed by reputable sources. It's not as if there's a shortage of academic interest in, for example, the status of minorities under medieval Islamic regimes. And yet, the views of popular ideologues and polemicists like Robert Spencer and Bat Ye'or metastasize through our encyclopedia, sucking away the blood supply from respected scholars writing in university presses. It's as if our articles on particle physics were sourced predominantly to back issues of Popular Science and a smattering of crackpot "unified theory" websites. Not to mention that every — single — book — these clowns publish seems to have a ~50kb article stuffed with praise from the "in-crowd" of Muslim-bashers.

One of the strangest things about this affair is that patrons of Spencer, Pipes, Ibn Warraq et al. genuinely don't seem to realize that their favorite writers are in any way less than mainstream. In fact, they seem to believe that Middle Eastern Studies departments in the West are just stuffed full of Hamasniks and cowed "dhimmis", and that the ideologues are thus better sources than the mainstream academics! It's not uncommon on Wikipedia to see a titled professor of Islamic Studies, heading up a department at a prestigious university, paired with some B.A. Econ with a job at a shady neo-con think tank in "He said, She said" fashion — a violation of

The ideological biases of many editors undoubtedly play a role here, but so, I think, does simple laziness. People like Spencer write mass-produced missives for a general audience, they have frequently updated websites and blogs, and their ramblings tend to be quoted and mindless-link-propagated across the conservative "blogosphere". Finding legitimate academic views of a subject may actually requre — gasp! — going to the library, in order to find out something you don't already know.

In the final analysis, the views of the Spencers and Ye'ors should be confined to articles which are about them specifically, and in a limited fashion, to articles like Criticism of Islam, as long as their view is clearly set-off from the views of proper scholars. They should not be quoted in most other contexts. Notoriety and popularity do not "a reputation for accuracy and fact-checking" make. <eleland/talkedits> 18:23, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Yes we need more John Esposito and what his 20 million dollar cheque paid for him to say. ^{(Hypnosadist)} 18:51, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Yes, exactly. We need what more mainstream, respected scholars like John Esposito say, and less of what idiot conspiracy-mongers like the people who perpetuate that dumb smear say. <eleland/talkedits> 20:20, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

20 million from a man who supplies british school kids with the Protocols of the elders of Zion clearly speaks to his bias. I don't listen to what a scientist paid for by a oil company says on global warming. Just read what the donation is for, its not for academic critique of islam. ^{(Hypnosadist)} 04:33, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

Have you any sources for that libelous claim? <eleland/talkedits> 06:48, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

Search for Protocols and British schools on say the BBC news site, you won't believe me or the Jewish Chronicle [15]. ^{(Hypnosadist)} 07:29, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

Editors of the encyclopedia will be keen not to re-cycle propaganda or give any credibility to hate-sources by eg treating the likes of JihadWatch and Robert Spencer as reliable. It's possible this story is true or partly true, but some/many regular secular sources seem to think it's been tampered with - see the Guardian "BBC2's Newsnight said examination of receipts provided by the researchers to verify their purchases showed some had been written by the same person - even though they purported to come from different mosques." That was on Thursday, so we don't know how this will pan out.

Let me remind everyone that the hate band-wagon is not just targetted on Muslims - more of this bile is aimed directly at the British, see this denial by the Holocaust Education Trust of a nonsense story that has nothing to do with Islam.

I've had a massive slew of allegations levelled at me, most of them obviously false. I face an indef-block with no further warning or possibility of appeal. The ax could very easily fall on me because of what I've said here - apparently, providing evidence in TalkPages is proof of

soap-boxing and in my case that's a capital crime. Sorry about that - but I came to editing to find and document "truth", not give a veneer of respectability to propaganda. PR^talk

09:01, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

And i could have read Policy Exchange for more on this. ^{(Hypnosadist)} 11:39, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

Even if we ignored the forgery, none of your sources mention the name al-Waleed bin Talal. Stop wasting our time with this nonsense. <eleland/talkedits> 23:11, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

The school admitted to having and teaching the Protocols to kids until 2004. ^{(Hypnosadist)} 13:14, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

It would appear that you have no RS for this smear on John Esposito or him handing over $20 million to anyone. Furthermore, he's an American academic, unlikely to have funded anyone - and certainly unlikely to have funded a British school. Increasingly, this looks like an attempt to waste the time of good-faith editors. PR^talk 14:09, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

So you woudn't quote from Christopher Hitchens or Richard Dawkins either?

They are just as scathing about Islam. This is daft. You can quote him as long as it does not violate POV or UNDUE WEIGHT. Lobojo (talk) 01:31, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Er, no you wouldn't quote from either of these on the topic of Islam, as neither of them are experts on the topic. Dawkins on evolution - please go ahead. Itsmejudith (talk) 14:04, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. Dawkins is an expert on evolution and certainly citable in that article. He isn't an expert on Islam or Christianity, so his views probably aren't relevant or desirable to cite in those articles.

I am surprised that anyone would argue against this - I mean, hypothetically, if George Bush said that he thinks atoms don't exist, then you think that because he's notable his point of view should be added to the article on

atoms? Do you honestly believe that Dawkins' views on religion should be added to the Christianity article? If not, then why would citing him be appropriate in Islamic articles? You can't have it both ways. Chris Bainbridge (talk

) 16:39, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Are the former journalists Leonard Davis, then second-in-command of AIPAC, now Israel's no.2 diplomat to the USA (as Lenny Ben-David), and Midge Decter, grande dame of the US neo-conservative movement, reliable sources for statements made by the leader of the Palestinians during the 1940s, in the absence of any further confirmation or citation?

And do the word of an ultra-right talk-radio host and Internet columnist, and the esteemed author of "The complete idiot's guide to Jewish history and culture" vouchsafe the claim? <eleland/talkedits> 01:51, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Since the esteemed editor is a historian who specializes in U.S.-Middle East policy, and the author/editor of 17 books whose work has been published in academic journals and major newspapers, the answer would seem to be 'Yes'. Please do not use this forum to soapbox about "grande dames of the US neo-conservative movements or about "ultra-right" radio hosts. Isarig 02:19, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

What on earth are you talking about? Mitchell Bard has not been cited on the page. The citations 46, 47, and 48 are Leonard J. Davis and M. Decter, Chuck Morse, and Benjamin Blech. Please talk sense, and avoid trying to paint evaluations of source reliability as "using this forum to soapbox." <eleland/talkedits> 02:58, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Do calm down, and adopt a more civil tone. What I'm talking about is that your were asking about "Myths and Facts: A Concise Record of the Arab-Israeli Conflict" - a book whose most recent editor is Mitchell Bard, a noted historian and academic author, which meets

WP:RS. Now stop using this forum to rant about your political opponents, and edit according to policy. Isarig

03:59, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

But the 2006 edition isn't cited. The 1982 edition is. The 2006 version is available online, and makes no mention of the Mufti's supposed statement. Accusations of my "ranting" juxtapose oddly with accusations of incivility. <eleland/talkedits> 05:12, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Yes, these are RSs. You are suggesting that we reject a source since they are zionist or neoconservative. Think what you like about these movements but we DO NOT reject academic sources based on their political viewpoint. This is a disgusting and nauesating suggestion. Would you have us reject all sources who happened to be anti-zionist, or Marzist?! Obscene. Lobojo (talk) 01:41, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Update: is a Haganah press officer and later IDF Lieutenant Colonel, a confidant of David Ben Gurion and his personal media strategy adviser, writing in 1947 during the run-up to civil war in Palestine, a reliable source for what Husayni may or may not have said during the 1940s, in the absence of further confirmation or citation? <eleland/talkedits> 15:02, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

I would say that if someone is "a second-in-command of AIPAC" there is reason to suspect them of not being a reliable source on controversial Israeli-Palestinian matters. But suspicion doesn't make one an unreliable source, and the two men may very well be reliable sources. The burden of evidence is (for showing something is a reliable source) is upon those who insist on its usage. As of now I don't see any evidence provided for the reliability of Leonard Davis and Midge Decter.Bless sins (talk) 05:15, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Agree. At the very least there should be some sort of disclaimer about the biases of neoconservative commentators. --

talk

) 22:14, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Oh dear. If there is bias then it cant go in at all. This suggestion is simply obscene. Someone is a Zionist so we need a discliamer before we can quote them, and to label them a neocon. We canont put on such a disclaimer since that vioates NPOV since it is expressing an opition to the effect "this source might be a lying neocon pig, so watch out". This is an obscene suggestion that would seem antisemitic if it were ever put into effect. Lobojo (talk) 01:37, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Look, this isn't the question of someone who is a scholar, but may be biased in some way. All scholars have their biases. The two sources at issue here are:

• A journalist, Haganah spokesman, and personal confidant of Ben-Gurion, writing in the heat of the 1947 civil war in Palestine, about the leader of the enemey
• A pair of lifelong "pro-Israel" lobbyists and activists, one of whom was later picked as chargé d'affairs at the Israeli embassy in Washington

Neither are scholars, neither are reliable, and neither should be used as an excuse to sling mud at Husayni. <eleland/talkedits> 01:45, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Oh, and the second source was actually published by AIPAC and distributed literally by the caseload, and was condemned by scholars for... oh, why do I bother, you haven't even been reading the discuission you're commenting on, have you. <eleland/talkedits> 01:48, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

They are scholars, he is cited by others, so we cite him. You are free to describe his roles alongside any quotes in a limited and neutral way. I have never understood the motives of editors who seek to defend a confirmed Nazi who spent the war as a guest of Hitler in Berlin from "mudslinging", I think that a little more mud isn't going to make to much difference to a man who drowned in a vat of it. When people come here to defent Eichmann, we tend to view them as sick. Much like I view the suggestion that zoinist scholars and writers be labeled zionists before they can be quoted. You are free to add sources that rebut the claims they make it you want. Lobojo (talk) 02:18, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Leonard Davis is a scholar? Really? What was his academic posting? Seriously, you need to stop just making up the facts to suit your POV. Leonard J. Davis aka Lenny Ben-David was many things, but "scholar" was not one of them. <eleland/talkedits> 04:37, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

This this article from The Nation a reliable source? —Christopher Mann McKay^talk 17:50, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Same answer as above. Reliable for what material? "Reliability" is not an absolute distinction: it requires context. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 02:56, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

the following reference was deleted off the Daniel Pipes article b/c the user said it was a unreliable source: According to writer Kristine McNeil in The Nation, Pipes has anti-Arab views. He said that the customs of Muslims immigrants are "more troublesome than most," and has referred to fundamentalist Muslims as "barbarians" and "potential killers." Pipes is a regular contributor to the Gamla web site, an organization founded that endorses the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians[16] —Christopher Mann McKay^talk 03:10, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Reliable. Although this source is biased, it is well-regarded as the premiere source of liberal opinion in the United States. Before people jump over me for having a liberal bias, let me say that National Review is also reliable.Ngchen (talk) 04:14, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

It is not a reliable source for facts, but certainly a reliable source for the views of liberals on the subject. As it is properly attributed, I would see no problem in using it. In any case, you will need to reach

WP:CONSENSUS with involved editors there.≈ jossi ≈ (talk)

04:24, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

I respectfully disagree about it being unreliable in terms of facts. Sure, it may present facts in a biased way, but I doubt it publishes outright falsehoods as truth.Ngchen (talk) 04:35, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

My opinion is that if you want to show what liberals are saying, quote a liberal source. If you want to cite a conservative opinion, use a conservative source. For other things, it is better to use a centrist source. For example, I am comfortable quoting from MSNBC and CBS for liberal opinions and Fox News for conservative opinions. This is because sources will twist around the words of opposing opinions to make them look bad. However, I find those sources to be too biased to be used for controversial content that is easily skewed like the war in Iraq. I would rather use sources that I think are more centrist like ABC News and CNN for those topics. Even though I am somewhat liberal, I am disgusted by the blatant liberal bias in CBS and MSNBC, and of course I am disgusted with the blatant conservative bias in Fox News. Some people will consider my opinion on who is the centrist sources as bad, and I know that different people will have different opinions. Jesse Viviano (talk) 07:19, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

I would suggest that everyone who is offering an opinion on this cite read the actual reference. I'm not certain that the article being used could be used due to the unapologetically biased nature of the article. Wow. I've not read a hit piece like that ever before... it isn't journalism. I'm not exactly certain what it is. Kyaa the Catlord (talk) 17:17, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Having read the first page of the cite, I must say that sure, it is biased, and written in an non-encyclopedic tone. But that doesn't mean that facts gleaned from the article are unreliable. It is, perhaps muckraking journalism, IMHO.Ngchen (talk) 18:29, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

I'd suggest that it definitely falls under the

WP:REDFLAG clause. I feel dirty having read it all. There's focused, driven editorializing and then there is demonizing through propaganda tactics. That article clearly is the latter. Kyaa the Catlord (talk

) 18:39, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't see how there is any redflag violation. —Christopher Mann McKay^talk 05:16, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure exactly how a fringe opinion such as that is useful as a source in an NPOV manner. I was kind of hoping the last line would be something like "oh yes, and he eats babies too." Kyaa the Catlord (talk) 05:29, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

It's hardly a fringe opinion. By all measures, the Nation is a mainstream rag. That doesn't mean that it's unbiased or doesn't have an editorial slant, but tell me what source doesn't? "Reliable source" doesn't mean no bias; that's a mistake too often made by Wikipedia editors. If there's an issue of balance in the sources used in the article, that needs to be hammered out on the talk page. But to paint the Nation as an unreliable (let alone "fringe") source, including that particular editorial, is absurd. bobanny (talk) 18:53, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

That particular editorial is beyond the pale. I'd love to show you, line by line, how it uses propaganda techniques, but we're all able to read and discern for ourselves. I'd expect that sort of rant from a blog, not a reputable publication like the Nation. Kyaa the Catlord (talk) 20:39, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

The use of propaganda techniques doesn't separate the Nation from other reliable sources. Contrary to popular belief, propaganda is not the science of lying. It simply means propagating an idea or perspective through whatever means, whether rhetorical devices, logical argumentation, or whatever, all of which are used by the most respectable newspapers and magazines. Even if you don't agree with how that editorial depicts Pipes, the way it was originally used in the Wikipedia article was simply to say that this opinion of Pipes is out there. bobanny (talk) 20:53, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Bobanny. According to Kyaa the Catlord's logic, most all main-stream media would be considered an unreliable source, especially Fox News--which is widely used on WIkipedia.—Christopher Mann McKay^talk 01:39, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Fox News is at least presenting itself as news as is, for example, CNN. The Nation exists mainly as a journal of opinion. Their conclusions cannot and should not be used as facts.

IronDuke

03:03, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

(outdent) Of course, no opinion printed anywhere should be used as a fact. What I am saying is that facts extracted from The Nation can be used. Likewise, the same applies to Fox News and National Review.Ngchen (talk) 16:51, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

IronDuke, in the context the text was used on the Pipes article, it is not presenting any opinion, only facts. What are you suggesting is an opinion?—Christopher Mann McKay^talk 19:50, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

• Sure, it's reliable. Does something think the facts listed are somehow in error? The opinions can be used for certain things also (say liberal response). Hobit (talk) 02:50, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

A dispute has arisen as to the sourcing of favorable quotes reviewing Bat Ye'or's work. The sources are the "blurb" quotes on the back cover of her book. One side argues that since publishers of academic books are reliable sources, evidence must be presented that this particular quote is either taken from a longer review or taken out of context, or it is a priori reliable. The other side argues that blurb quotes are often taken out-of-context, even by reliable publishers, and points to a book reviewer griping about a "misleading" blurb "quoted out of context" from one of his prior reviews.

Neither side has located the originals, assuming the reviews were first published elsewhere. <eleland/talkedits> 02:40, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

I see no problems in quoting from backmatter or dust-jacket flaps, if properly

attributed. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk)

02:52, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Would that mean we say "According to a review reproduced on the back cover of X, person Y said..."? <eleland/talkedits> 06:22, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Not all blurbs are created equally -- I suggest considering them on a case-by-case basis and using common sense. Blurbs exist to sell something, not to convey information. Some quote very selectively from reviews. I'd especially watch out for ellipses (…) indicating something has been removed from the text or brackets [] indicating other editing; those don't mean a blurb is automatically unreliable, just that it needs closer examination. --A. B. ^(talk) 12:47, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

In this particular case, we already have a source accusing that. Somebody reviewing the English translation of one of Ye'or's books took time out to note that the English edition carried a quotation from him, "quoted out of context" in a "misleading" way, from a past review. <eleland/talkedits> 21:47, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Another problem with using blurbs is that your source then typically consist of a single, or a few, sentence(s). I believe blurbs should genereally not be used as sources since they are either: (i) taken from a larger piece of work that can be sourced, even if finding that work is difficult, (ii) only consist of a few sentences and can hence be considered as random statements. Labongo (talk) 13:36, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

"According to a review reproduced on the back cover of X, person Y said..."? meets the requirements of

WP:V. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk)

16:56, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

That seems obvious, that if it was put like that then there could never be any problem, even if the quote was manipulated. The publisher is a RS. Lobojo (talk) 01:45, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Resolved

Is Altermedia a reliable source? --Gutza ^{T T+} 08:33, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

No - it isn't notable, it doesn't even have an article on Wikipedia. If you think it is, then you would need to establish that before it could be a reliable source. Secondly, it seems to present articles in a very biased way with an anti-Jew anti-black POV. It is also taking a political position in support of various parties, such as the British National Party. It is definitely not neutral. I checked the front page of the UK site, headline : "Islamic beheading in UK"[17]. Contrast this with the same story from a reliable source, BBC News, which has nothing about an "Islamic beheading".[18] They are clearly distorting facts with their POV. Chris Bainbridge (talk) 11:49, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

It is a reliable source for existence of opinions (points of view) about some issues. Reliability as a source for facts should be weighted for every local version of Altermedia separately. --Dezidor (talk) 18:15, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia states clarly that unreliable sources may only be used in articles about themselves. Below, I explain just what is unreliable about it (and "unreliable" is an understatement). Dahn (talk) 22:41, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

How does one determine which local version can be used, and which specific issues it can be used for? --Gutza ^{T T+} 19:10, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

To clarify a bit: this section is a consequence of a long thread on Romanian wikipedia, where altermedia is used as a reliable source. In the process of the discussion, I investigated a bit and it turns out that only two reliable sources (of the academic kind, mind you) even take altermedia into consideration. They are Thomas Greven, Thomas Grumke, Globalisierter Rechtsextremismus?: Die extremistische Rechte in der Ära der Globalisierung, VS Verlag, 2006, pages 171-171 and Wilhelm Hofmann, Franz Lesske, Politische Identität- visuell, LIT Verlag, 2005, page 160. Both cite altermedia as a portal, and both define it as a venue for far right extremism (with, in at least one case, emphasis on its promotion of antisemitism, xenophobia, the Klan etc.). Outside of these sources, altermedia as a whole has little covering: it is simply ignored, in both academia and mainstream journalism.

A larger debate was carried in relation to the Romanian altermedia, which, it was claimed, is an independent section - its independence is, however, easily dismissible by citing altermedia itself, as it defines itself as part of the portal in question. Three main issues have been noted. One is that ro.altermedia.info is run by a high-ranking member of the far right group Noua Dreaptă: Dan Ghiţă, whom altermedia itself indicates as its president and editor, is Noua Dreaptă's vice president (as mentioned here, here, and here) and has for its "reporter" Bogdan Stanciu, who is Noua Dreaptă's spokesman. The other issue clearly observable is its involvement with far right politics and its support for Noua Dreaptă's actions (accompanied by praises of fascist politicians such as Iron Guard leader Corneliu Zelea Codreanu); these activities are, to say the least, bordering on illegality in Romania. See for example here, here and here. I left aside the other myriad of claims it makes on all sections, all of which are visible to the naked eye (from "curing" homosexuality to denying the Holocaust to ranting about Jewish conspiracies to the links leading to "news of interest to white people").

The third and most important issue in respect to altermedia Romania is its reflection in reliable sources. For all its presence in blogs and forums, there are few reliable sources (mainstream or academic) mentioning it at all. Here they are: an article in the Romanian daily Curentul, where altermedia is referred to as an "Iron Guard nest" ("nest" is the terminology used by the Irion Guard to define its smallest active cells), and attributed the qualities of "the Guard's propaganda tentacle", "tool for propagating Noua Dreaptă's fascist ideology" etc.; an article in the magazine Observator Cultural, where altermedia's Holocaust denial is discussed in passing, where altermedia's connection with Noua Dreaptă is again mentioned, and where the author accuses it of promoting an Iron Guard-inspired view of Romanian history; an article in the daily Cotidianul, headlined "Hatred Boils Over on the Internet", where altermedia is mentioned alongside other extremist and neofascist sites; the Wiesel Institute, in a document dealing with Holocaust denial and antisemitism in contemporary Romania, cites altermedia several times (pages 10, 17, 33, 34, 40, and 44) - the document argues (page 17) that "under the cover of 'right to expression and access to information', the publication hosts messages with an antisemitic and denialist character" (a dismissal of both altermedia's character and its claim to reliability). There are a few more informal sources mentioning altermedia's neofascist character, antisemitism etc., but I just concentrated on the most relevant ones (reliable themselves).

The issue of editorial control was also brought up, and altermedia simply states that it encourages anyone to contribute as long as they feel that their material is censored elsewhere (by "

WP:RS

for the implications of that). Altermedia, under any form and with any section, is not cited as a source of information in any reliable source. As shown, it is simply a study case for neofascism, antisemitism, Holocaust denial, racism and xenophobia.

In short: there is absolutely no way that this could be considered a reliable source, under any standards on Earth. Dahn (talk) 22:32, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

For the record, Dahn is correct in stating that this is basically a spill out from the Romanian Wikipedia -- I simply tried to be as neutral as possible in how I asked the questions because I didn't want to risk being accused of tainting the topic with my POV. I hope I have been successful in not revealing my personal opinion on this source's reliability or my motives for asking these questions. However (or maybe even more so), please do try to give this inquiry a bit of your attention, this is setting a precedent on our Wikipedia. Thank you. --Gutza ^{T T+} 23:35, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Technically, the labeling of a source as unreliable and its entire removal from wikipedia (+policing for possible new entries) is not unprecedented. I do believe this was accomplished in the case of Stormfront, Al Qaeda and others, and I have seen editors who simply remove such links from the articles. This may be without precedent for the Romanian wikipedia, but even there, I am led to believe, there has been agreement on at least some links to sites promoting Holocaust denial. As for your query, I find it entirely reasonable. Dahn (talk) 23:46, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

In short: I see that you and Gutza expand disputes from Romanian Wikipedia (see long dispute at this page) into English Wikipedia and I don´t know where else. I think that it is kind of harassment. Local Altermedias are very different as well as language versions of Wikipedia and sources in Romanian language are not problem of overwhelming majority of editors of English Wikipedia. Solve your personal problems with Romanian Altermedia at Romanian Wikipedia and write encyclopedia (this account is not about writing encyclopedia). Thank you, --Dezidor (talk) 23:52, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Actually, me and Gutza agree that it is not a reliable source, as do several other users who formulated their opinion there. Above, I clearly indicate that the only two reliable sources even mentioning altermedia (as a portal, i.e.: in its entirety) do so only to highlight its extremist character. Additionally, the reason why this was posted here is so that the source itself, and in its totality, be exposed for scrutiny by the community. Please make sure you address these concerns, and not ulterior assumptions. Dahn (talk) 23:57, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

And if you drop my account in the pot, please make sure you check out my record of contributions over here (including my two featured articles). I only joined the Romanian project very recently, after a period of contributing as an IP, and after being asked to sign in by several administrators - precisely because they appreciated my input. Dahn (talk) 00:00, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

One additional comment: writing a proper and reliable encyclopedia is precisely why one needs to look into what sources are used and for what purpose. Dahn (talk) 00:07, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

I understand that you both are against this source. But sorry, it is very difficult to believe that there is no connection between your dispute at Romanian Wikipedia and your actions here. It simply look likes that you want to write at Romanian Wikipedia: At English Wikipedia they said... --Dezidor (talk) 00:35, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Dezidor, I don't see what relevancy it has that it is discussed over there, given that I am bringing up the entire source for review here. I could just as well bring it for review because I please - meaning that I have a right, and, ultimately, a duty, to ask that these sources be exposed for scrutiny by any section of wikipedia. I do believe that this is the purpose of this page. Your answer, which was the second one to Gutza's first post, was that different altermedias "should be weighted for every local version of Altermedia separately" - based on what logic, and according to what rule? For the third time: the only two mentionable sources that cite the entire portal (no "Czech altermedia is okay, Portuguese altermedia is bad") discuss it as a source for nothing other than extremism; all other reliable sources that I was able to find discuss the Romanian section (which is not subject to some peculiar and particular rules) say very much the same. Am I missing something? Dahn (talk) 02:32, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

And even if I would want to cite a verdict passed on the English wikipedia as additional information there (as if what I posted there isn't as clear as what I wrote above), what's to say I'm not allowed to, given that the portal we're discussing is international, and that wikipedia enforces the same rules wherever? Dahn (talk) 02:40, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

My argument that different AlterMedias should be discussed separately is based on facts that this websites has own redactions and external contributors, different quality and popularity (for example Altermedia România looks like popular website, Altermedia Österreich doesn´t), different ideological opinions (almost every mainstream and non-mainstream media has own political or economic interests and it would be violation of NPOV to support only media with some opinions), different sort of supporters and opponents (and sources that writes positively, negatively or neutrally about them), different updating (for example AlterMedia România produces new articles every day in comparison with AlterMedia Schweiz which looks like dead project), different kind of articles (for example AlterMedia UK usually includes only comments to articles by another media and external links in comparison with AlterMedia Czech Republic that usually provides articles by its own authors or by authors of friendly media) etc. Altermedia.info is rather than one project only domain that hosts different projects with different content. --Dezidor (talk) 19:23, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but: 1) number of clicks does not make reliability; 2) several sources discuss the site in its entirety, and they are the only reliable sources that even mention the site; 3) speculations about the "political interest" of academic works fade in comparison to the burden of evidence regarding the bias of altermedia (and altermedia, for sure, is not academic); 4) the sources that do actually take the site into consideration belong to media so diverse that it would have to be "all the world against altermedia" (which is basically saying the same thing about what that site is all about). I fail to see any proof that the altermedias would be separate projects, and, in fact, I see plenty of evidence that they are not (both in third-party commentary and in what altermedia states about itself). Below, you have what I consider is a full answer as to the reliability of altermedia, with a direct quote from wikipedia's policies.

To the above, I will add this document provided by the Internal Ministry in North Rhineland-Westphalia, which keeps neonazi sites under a close watch. On pages 4-5, the entire portal is exposed as a venue for right-wing extremism, the links between its supposedly separate wings are discussed as facts, and the person holding the strings is identified as the notorious David Duke. Nuff said. Dahn (talk) 00:58, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

This last source that Dahn brought (from the Internal Ministry of

Minister-President of North Rhine-Westphalia, does not sound like a pinko type to me, so the fact that his interior ministry says what it says regarding AlterMedia adds an extra layer of credibility, if I'm allowed to make the inference in this discussion. Turgidson (talk

) 15:03, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Oh, never mind all the assumptions. (And by the way, Dahn is among the project's most committed editors, so please.) Yes, the debate originated at ro.wiki, but why not have it here as well? As long as everyone stays civil, I don't see the problem. It's a good idea to establish a solid case here as well that altermedia should be avoided as a source. Biruitorul (talk) 00:47, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

From

WP:RS#Extremist_sources

:

"Organizations and individuals that are widely acknowledged as extremist, whether of a political, religious or anti-religious, racist, or other nature, should be used only as sources about themselves and their activities in articles about themselves, and even then with caution."

Any publisher of material that advocates far right (or even far left) politics is not a reliable source (with the minor exception of an article about the publisher). The rules are very clear. Chris Bainbridge (talk) 01:24, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

This entire discussion came from Romanian Wikipedia, where several users added altermedia as a source at various articles. As Dezidor pointed there are differences between different branches of Altermedia. Each branch has its own redaction team, the conclusions about American or German altermedia can not be extended on other branches. Romanian Altermedia is a popular site often quoted in various publications. For example: it received an award from the spreading of free information, it was quoted by University of Galati, Romania-Israel portal, Science Academy of the Republic of Moldova, Catholica.ro - website conecting catholic parishes in Romania, "Vestitorul", The newspaper of the Greek-catholic bishopric of Oradea, The revue of bioethics, the website of the students of the Free university of Moldova, Dervent monastery website, the website of the Romanians from Australia association, Curierul Conservator website, Christian writers association, the website of a bishop of Orthodox Church in Moldova, "My bussiness" website, a newspaper of the Romanian policemen training center, Orthodox Bishopric of Suceava official site, "Our Moldova" site (a site from the Republic of Moldova), Deca Press agency, Bacaul.ro - site of the people from Romanian city of Bacau, Lugojul.ro - site of the people from Romanian city of Lugoj, Site of the Yoga movement, Site of the orthodox young people from the Republic of Moldova and several others. I fully agree with Chris that sites that are widely aknowledged as extremist should not be considered reliable sources. However, in the case of Altermedia Romania, less than 5% of those who are quoting this site are considering it as extremist, it can not be considered as "widely aknowledged as extremist". I have to point also some fallacies in Dahn's message - the article in "Curentul" the he is quoting is mentioning altermedia as a "nest" (it is a derogatory term, like in the movie "Borat, a story for people in Kazahstan"), but not as an "Iron Guard nest", the "Iron Guard" was added by Dahn from his imagination. Both "Curentul" and "Observatorul Cultural" are minor publications in Romania. The refferences at other sections of altermedia are simply irrelevant for a judgement about Romanian altermedia, in my opinion.--MariusM (talk) 18:54, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

It is obviously difficult for non-Romanian speakers to verify those references. Your argument is basically that, yes, the English speaking divisions of Altermedia are extremist and not reliable sources, but the Romanian division is totally different, and is actually a good, reliable source. It is not an impossible proposition, but is extremely unlikely. So I will ask:

• Is it really necessary to use this site as a reliable source? Are there no reliable sources similar to the BBC or CNN in Romania? No professional newspapers?
• The English Altermedia had content that was clearly anti-{Muslim, Jew, black}. Is the Romanian site different, or does it have a similar slant? The Romanian site uses the same tagline, "World wide news for people of European descent". The implication is obvious.
• The regional sites all link to each other without any warning that the viewer is being redirected to a completely different organisation. If you cite it as a reliable source, then how is the reader meant to know that you only believe the Romanian site is reliable?

Chris Bainbridge (talk) 19:21, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

I am not saying that Romanian Altermedia is the best source, but sometimes they have good articles which are appropiate for Wikipedia, and other sources about those subjects are missing. When an article is added as a source, the reader is directed at a specific article from Altermedia, not at the entire network. The Romanian Altermedia has a "Frequently Asked Questions" page [19] where they claim being independent from other sections of the altermedia. I am against a fatwa forbidding any link to altermedia articles without an analysis of the specific article which is proposed to be linked (this was Dahn's proposal at Romanian wikipedia). Romanian Altermedia has a wide variety of articles, from far-right to far-left political orientation.--MariusM (talk) 19:40, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

"I am against a fatwa forbidding any link to altermedia articles without an analysis of the specific article which is proposed to be linked" Well, that is the way that

WP:RS works. A source is either considered reliable, or it isn't. We don't evaluate individual articles for their reliability. Chris Bainbridge (talk

) 04:24, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

MariusM's message is spurious on several grounds: 1) the entirety of the links he cites are themselves unreliable, and most of them are blogs; 2) the publications he dismisses as "minor" are not at all minor, and all of them are mainstream, indisputably reliable, and rating above each and all of the links he so generously provides above; 3) there is no indication that altermedia Romania is an independent project, and I have made available the sources discussing both the project in general and the mainstream rejection of its Romanian branch; 4) anybody with a little knowledge of Romanian will note that altermedia publishes fringe theories of the far right persuasion as a rule (open worship for fascist politicians and war criminals, clams to cure homosexuality, Holocaust denial, etc). I do believe it is perfectly legitimate and necessary for wikipedia not to soil itself by using such stuff as its source. Dahn (talk) 00:54, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Dahn is relying on the fact that few people here speak Romanian and can verify his afirmations. I've noticed that he didn't comment my observation about his wrong translation of the article from "Curentul" (where altermedia is described as a "nest", but Dahn pretended that it is described as an "Iron Guard nest").--MariusM (talk) 05:03, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Nice selective answers. Hoping that this is not the first in a pattern, let me note that: 1) several respected users who speak Romanian have checked the info I provided, and agreed with the terminology (by confirming that the translation was correct, and by empirically noting that it applies); 2) in the case of that particular article, the terminology is quite clear: the text lists a number of neofascist ventures in cahoots with the Iron Guard and its present-day growth Noua Dreaptă, describing all of them with the term "cuiburi" (Romanian for "nests" - n.b.: the term has a select few meanings in Romanian, one of which is part of the Iron Guard vocabulary). This relevant passage is found at the top of the screen, in an introductory section - "Şi-au format cuiburi legionare in toate judetele." ("[The Iron Guard affiliates] have formed themselves Iron Guard nests in all counties.") The article then proceeds to list various such ventures, including musical bands, xenophobic campaigns, their tentative tentacles (heh!) in a government structure etc. An entire section in this succession deals with altermedia. it is headlined "Cuibul Altermedia" ("The Altermedia Nest"). The organization is described as follows: "De fapt, Altermedia nu este decat unealta de propagare a ideologiei fasciste a Noii Drepte" ("Actually, Altermedia is nothing other than a tool for propagating Noua Dreaptă's fascist ideology"). Other such assessments follow, I just gave you the immediate context. I think we have by now moved past this straw man argument. Dahn (talk) 00:00, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

From alexa.com a comparison of different branches of altermediaalexa.com traffic details:

• Where people go on Altermedia.info:
• cz.altermedia.info - 33%
• de.altermedia.info - 21%
• ro.altermedia.info - 18%
• fr.altermedia.info - 7%
• be.altermedia.info - 3%
• altermedia.info - 3%
• es.altermedia.info - 2%
• bg.altermedia.info - 2%
• us.altermedia.info - 2%
• gr.altermedia.info - 2%
• ca.altermedia.info - 1%
• vl.altermedia.info - 1%
• ch.altermedia.info - 1%
• uk.altermedia.info - 1%
• Other websites - 3%

Romanian Altermedia has 4 times more visitors than American, UK and Canadian Altermedias together. Considering the fact that for one Romanian language speaker with acces at internet there are around 25 English language speakers with acces at internet, I will say that the weight of Romanian altermedia in Romanian culture is 100 times bigger than the weight of English language altermedias for English culture. This is why I consider irrelevant a conclusion about Romanian altermedia based on the tiny and unimportant English-language altermedias. In this case we have a completely different picture than regarding Wikipedia alexa.com traffic details, where 54% of people are using English Wikipedia, while Romanian Wikipedia is not even listed, it is in the "other websites" category.--MariusM (talk) 23:30, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

How is this concoction supposed to be an argument, and how does anything about internet traffic spell out "reliability"? A rhetorical question, MariusM, as it looks like you have yourself very well understood that it does not. Never mind that the deduction about what it means to Romanian culture is bogus (comparatively, there are nowhere near as many internet users in Romania as there are in the Anglo-Saxon world). I also object to the notion that antisemitism, fascism, xenophobia, and other such ills are "acceptable" in Romania or in areas dealing with Romania, especially when based on the non sequitur according to which a larger percentage of internet users who bother to visit that site will visit that part of the site. Let me remind you all of

WP:NOT, and let's not flog this dead horse any longer. Dahn (talk

) 23:46, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

I used the traffic data from alexa.com to show the irrelevance of the tiny and unimportant English-language altermedias in a judgement about Romanian altermedia. I never told that Romanian altermedia is a fascist site, your assumption that "fascism and other ills are acceptable in Romania" is a straw man argument. The reliability of Romanian altermedia is based on several reliable sources that are quoting this site, some of them I listed above (and those are not blogs, like you fakely pretended). The 2 articles that you found in minor Romanian publications which are criticising Romanian altermedia are not enough for a conclusion that Romanian altermedia is "widely aknowledged as extremist".--MariusM (talk) 00:26, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Nope, this is what I said, in case you have not read it before: 1) there is no argument in which it would matter what the alleged popularity of altermedia is in Romania or anywhere else - since what wikipedia is interested in is how a topic is viewed by reliable sources, not by people clicking links (

WP:RS, as you have already been made aware elsewhere - despite their fancy titles, all but a handful are informal, fringe and self-published portals, blogs and fanzines, and the remainder (who do not actually cite or discuss altermedia) are sites of some monasteries and publications of absolutely no reputation. On Romanian wikipedia, these "sources" were reviewed by other editors, who noted that they have absolutely no reputation. 3) the newspapers I cited are mainstream and widely cited in third-party sources, which, unlike speculations about popularity, is what matters here; if we are discussing your speculations about popularity, then I have to point out that they are all printed and in general circulation, and they are all more widely circulated than anything you cite above - Observator Cultural is a leading cultural magazine (virtually all of its regular contributors are academics, and the journal is widely cited by other respectable sources, both Romanian and foreign - like all but one cultural magazines, it is not audited, but, according to this article, claims to sell approx. 4,500 copies on average per issue, when the best-selling magazines in that area sell 15,000 and 8,000 respectively, and it is probably the third-selling or so; according to the same source, most cultural magazines sell, on average, 1,000 copies per issue), Cotidianul is one of the most respected, as well as popular, newspapers (2.5 million copies sold in the first half of 2007), Curentul is also quite popular (260,000 copies sold for the same period). Note that the data I am providing is verifiable and relevant, not based on number of clicks or filling this page with linkspams to all sorts of forums that we are supposed to assume are somehow relevant. Interestingly, all of the "magazines" you list above are published as posts in a thread on the internet, and not on paper. 4) In addition to the magazines in question, there is the Wiesel Institute, which was created through a decision of the Romanian government as a panel of scientists to monitor and report on, among other things, Holocaust denialist messages in Romanian society - I will not repeat the terms in which it describes altermedia as a whole, as their available for viewing above. 5) At any point in this discussion, the issue of editorial control and reliability will inevitably target altermedia more than any other source mentioned, since whatever necessary criteria are met by the sources dismissing altermedia are simply not met by altermedia itself (no audit, peer review, mainstream quality or editorial policy to speak of). And finally: 6) if the reputable sources discuss altermedia (in whole and in part) as a neofascist site, if the Romanian branch of altermedia is supposed to be "spared" the scrutiny made available for the site as a whole (because?), and if you invoke alleged popularity of one branch as some sort of panacea protecting us from these ills (n.b.: ills attributed by sources, regardless of whether I agree with what those sources say), then you're either not getting the point or are actively trying to fool us. Dahn (talk

) 01:15, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

When you compare the circulation of a daily newspaper (like "Curentul" or "Cotidianul") you should consider the number of copies printed daily, not to add all the copies they print in half a year. "Curentul" is selling zero copies, as it is a freely distributed magazine [20]. I wonder if free-distributed magazines are reliable sources. "Cotidianul" didn't labeled Altermedia as a fascist site. As you know, at Romanian Wikipedia there was no consensus regarding altermedia. I didn't make "speculations" about the popularity of different branches of altermedia, I gave verifiable data from alexa.com, which I consider to be a reliable source.--MariusM (talk) 01:53, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm not going to jam myself in this useless debate. If you note the original point I was making, popularity, if at all relevant, is secondary to the issue (if at all relevant in establishing verifiability). To this, I have added the same criterion for all newspapers I took into consideration - precisely because newspapers in general have moderate sales in Romania by world standards. As you will note, Curentul still sold copies for the given period - see the statistic in question, where the two criteria (sale and free distribution) are listed side by side, and it apparently still sells at least part of its copies. I'm leaving aside the obvious fact that, freely-distributed or not, Curentul is still mainstream and has editorial control... which altermedia does not. Your "Altermedia has 1.5 million visitors" argument is completely spurious, since number of clicks does not make individual copies or individual visitors (obviously, altermedia does not sell any copies on the market...), since site ranking does not work the same ratios as sales, and since I did not take into consideration stuff like the ranking of Cotidianul 's page. No, Cotidianul did not label altermedia fascist, for whatever reasons - it did not have to for the purpose of what is being discussed here, since it simply included it among other such sites in a study of how (literally) hatred spreads on the internet, and described as among the sites "specialized in promoting nationalism", in the same breath as the Greater Romania Party papers Tricolorul and România Mare. And, finally, I don't care where you got your data from: the speculation I was referring to is in reference to what conclusions you drew from it, and to the absurd implication that this stuff matters in assessing verifiability and reliability (such a reasoning would make Blogger, Myspace, Computer Games Online and other such sites among the most quotable ones out there!).

Now, from my part, this conversation is pretty much over, as I don't feel capable of maintaining a standard of WP:AGF. This after being confronted with all these poor attempts at twisting and turning arguments just to have altermedia quotations disgracefully seep (back) into wikipedia. Dahn (talk) 02:27, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

You are right about "Curentul", I didn't scrolled down to see that in half year they sold 16000 copies and distributed freely 248000 copies, and currently they seem to be only a free-distributed magazine. You are right also about the fact that "Cotidianul" didn't labeled Altermedia as fascist, why are you still using the argument "Cotidianul" in this case? As I told, is a straw man argument that I used alexa.com data to prove reliability, I used it only to show irrelevance of tiny English language altermedias. For reliability, I provided other sources (even more sources in our discussion in Romanian Wikipedia, including one printed source which is appreciated even by "Observatorul Cultural" [21]).--MariusM (talk) 02:45, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

About Curentul: I'm afraid you need to scroll down again. Not that this endless speculation of yours has anything to do with the letter and spirit of the relevant policies, but just for fun. Well, if you don't consider the reference to altermedia as a tool for propagating hate and a source with a nationalist agenda a problem as per WP:V and WP:RS, I'm afraid you need to look into those policies again (and, btw, I quote my original statement about the Cotidianul article, in case you may want to attempt another piece of proof by verbosity - "The third and most important issue in respect to altermedia Romania is its reflection in reliable sources. For all its presence in blogs and forums, there are few reliable sources (mainstream or academic) mentioning it at all. [...] [The article in Cotidianul is] headlined "Hatred Boils Over on the Internet", where altermedia is mentioned alongside other extremist and neofascist sites"). All that concoction about the relevancy of the "tiny English language altermedias" is itself irrelevant: there is a single project discussed in all relevant links that discuss altermedia.info as a whole (as I have pointed out, they do discuss the project in its entirety and several branches at once, and they do indicate that it has a single source); the Romanian altermedia is itself noted for its "special" and "supplementary" far right connections (both attested in sources and visible to the naked eye); no branch, corner, lair, pit etc on altermedia.info and its various sprouts fits any of the syllables that line up to form words that become guidelines here on wikipedia.

As for the "printed sources" you brought up, they are actually one, where one author is allowed to express his point of view and cites himself with what he wrote on altermedia. It is, basically and yet again, altermedia saying that altermedia is reliable. The rest of your sources are basically what you posted above, and, since they themselves do not make the cut under any provision of WP:RS, methinks you should reread the part where I tell you why spamlinks don't prove anything. Dahn (talk) 03:42, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

I quote what "Cotidianul" (the only serious newspaper you came with) is saying about Altermedia in the article you brought in our attention: "Spatiul virtual romanesc are parte si de publicatii specializate in promovarea nationalismului, cum ar fi (...) „publicatia online de gindire si atitudine ortodoxa Altermedia“". Translation: "The Romanian web has also sites specialized in promoting nationalism, like the magazine of orthodox thinking and attitude Altermedia". What the article is saying about other sites is not relevant for Romanian Altermedia. The article didn't label Altermedia as "fascist", "extremist" or "propagating hate" - those are only your inventions or your original research. Regarding printing sources which are quoting altermedia, there are many, I focused on sources available at internet because I already know that is too difficult for you to go to a library to check what is written in a printed book. However, in the list of links which I provided above there are also some printed publications like the newspaper of the Romanian policemen ("jandarmi") training center or the newspaper of the Greek-catholic bishopric of Oradea (despite being labeled as "orthodox" in "Cotidianul", Romanian Altermedia gained sympathies also from catholics). In a previous discussion I told you about the book coordonated by Bogdan Murgescu - "Revoluţia română din decembrie 1989. Istorie şi memorie", Polirom publishing house,

ISBN 978-973-46-0695-5 (commented favourable here in "Observatorul Cultural" - the magazine you used against altermedia). Mr. Bogdan Murgescu, Phd. in history, profesor of history at Bucharest University, vicepresident of Romanian Historical Society, former visiting professor at Pittsburg University and Central Europe University from Budapest, member of the executive commitee of EUSTORY network, is quoting altermedia at page 212. Altermedia is also quoted by the scientific revue "Memorial 89" nr. 2/2007 - edited by the National Center of Documentation and Research about the Romanian Revolution of 1989 (established through Law 152/2000 and financed by the Romanian Government), by the newspaper "Evenimentul Zilei" - Vest edition from 15 December 2007 or "Bănăţeanul" from 17 December 2007 [22]. Those are few examples to show that there are more sources which are quoting in favourable terms Romanian Altermedia than sources which are criticising it, while in a democratic society everybody can be criticised at a certain moment. A small adition: The "Observatorul Cultural" newspaper didn't pretend that they sell 4500 copies. They pretend, in the article you provided, to print 4500 from which they received back 1000, that mean they pretend to sell 3500. I'm not saying that this is making a relevant difference for their reliability (anyhow, is only their claim without an independent audit), it is relevant only for your habit of manipulating through misquoting articles, relying on the fact that few people here speak Romanian language.--MariusM (talk

) 22:43, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

It seems you are unwilling to quote an article fully: Cotidianul, which is one of several newspapers discussing Romanian altermedia's political agenda, includes altermedia among sites propagating hate, as per the very subject of that article. The part I have quoted directly form that article, which you have left out of your quote, traces a direct link between it and all the other sites, and a direct link between it and the two other sites also listed as "specialized in promoting nationalism" (a term obviously used negatively, as per the title and introduction to the article, and as per the quotes Cotidianul itself furnishes). This is enough to clarify that it perceived as having an extremist agenda by Cotidianul as well.

The quote in Murgescu's work (assuming it does exist), just as well as the two other articles you mention, do not in any way validate the site, but simply discuss Marius Mioc, a 1989 Revolution participant and Timişoara resident who was deemed notable and who publishes part of his work on altermedia, ahem. They all seem to be exclusively about this material: the two sources that are available for seeing, both of them local newspapers based in Timişoara, mention in passing that Mr. Mioc has collected his material on altermedia, without quoting that material in any way. One provides some links in a section outside the article, attributing them to Mr. Mioc, the other, also at the end of the article, posts two films with the caption, verbatim: "with the approval of Marius Mioc, we present on our site as well a few fragments posted by the revolutionary on the altermedia site". These are hardly an acknowledgment of any form of reliability for altermedia itself.

Once again: wikipedia has very strict rules about reliability, and any form of material posted on such a questionable site cannot be used as a source for anything other than itself; as was said, these rules are strict precisely because it should not fall upon users to determine what is reliable about x portion of an unreliable site (if Stormfront of Aryan Nations start publishing cooking tips or ballroom dancing schemes, they would still not be quotable based on the assumption that they "are not"part of the political agenda). MariusM may see for himself that this was already clarified above and elsewhere, so I find little room left for discussion at this point. Will there be anything else before we let an admin close this debate? Dahn (talk) 23:27, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

To summarize: "Cotidianul", in an article where it labeled other sites as extremist and propagating hate, is mentioning Romanian altermedia but without pretending that it propagate hate or that it is extremist (and without any specific example of an altermedia article - this is why I hardly can consider that article from "Cotidianul" as an "analysis" of Romanian altermedia). Similar situation is with the article you provided from "Observatorul Cultural" (3500 self-claimed sales) - which is criticising many Romanian organisations and media sources, main target being the mainstream newspaper "România Liberă" which happened to publish an article considered extremist (however the mainstream character of

România Liberă newspaper is undisputed), and Romanian altermedia is mentioned only with the guilt to quote something from "România Liberă"; the third source is the mainly free-distributed newspaper "Curentul" which is using wrong and outdated information about the political affiliation of some members of Romanian altermedia. However, there are plenty of other sources (not only blogs, as you pretended) which are quoting Romanian altermedia in different situations without any hint about the supposely "extremist" character (which need to be widely aknowledged, based on Wiki policies, in order to justify a conclusion about a site). Comparison with tiny English-language altermedias are irrelevant, same can be told about your comparison with Stormfront (it seems you are the only one who made this comparison) or other sites.--MariusM (talk

) 00:27, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I've read most of these sophistic arguments before, and congratulations on the new ones. Regardless, I'm simply tired of answering to you just so that you can start over every three posts or so. If anyone else has any questions, I'll be happy to answer. Dahn (talk) 00:38, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry this has essentially turned into a local issue after all, this hasn't been my intention at all. As far as the original request is concerned, this is closed -- and I want to thank the (few) people uninterested in the Romanian Wikipedia who have chosen to get involved. --Gutza ^{T T+} 01:16, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Is

For what material? The reliability of a source, depends in many instances in the context in which they are used. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 02:54, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

On Daniel Pipes: In October, 2001 Pipes said, before the convention of the American Jewish Congress. "[The] increased stature, and affluence, and enfranchisement of American Muslims...will present true dangers to American Jews." [23] —Christopher Mann McKay^talk 03:07, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

If properly attributed, I do not see why it cannot be used. Please discuss with other editors that are actively engaged in that article.

WP:CONSENSUS on this as a valid source, is still needed. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk)

04:21, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

It probably is reliable. Although I must admit I am not familiar with it. Considering how it's distributed worldwide, and its own stub article doesn't have anything denouncing it for false or misleading stories, I would make the educated guess that it is reliable.Ngchen (talk) 04:22, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Do other reliable news sources quote it? Is a news outlet out of Saudi Arabia free from legal constraints about what they may write? Hard to see how we can use this as a

IronDuke

03:05, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

I think Arab news is a reliable sources since it is a mainstream newspaper (thus satisfying Wikipedia:Verifiability#Sources), much like the The Washington Post, or Vancouver Sun. Infact, it is Saudi Arabia's oldest English newspaper. With regards to Daniel Pipes, you better get another source to support a contentious claim like that.Bless sins (talk) 04:20, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

It is really bias. Doesn't seem reliable at all to me. Yahel Guhan 06:28, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Is this reliable to determine if he made such a distasteful statement? He also says that he said it on www.danielpipes.com, so it seems ArabNews is perfectly reliable and acceptable. Lawrence Cohen 06:40, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

"It is really bias" Why?Bless sins (talk) 19:07, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

When Pipes makes a controversial statement at the American Jewish Congress, it is likely to receive wide coverage, and you would not be limited to Arab News as the only source. The same Arab News report that was linked above claims to be quoting from an unpublished grant proposal written by Pipes's Middle East Forum and 'obtained by journalists.' I would be more cautious with anything obtained that way. EdJohnston (talk) 19:39, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

The problem of bias in this case is here by editors, with inappropriate comments. On the Daniel Pipes talk page, Ironduke made reference to the source being unacceptable because it is from Saudi Arabia, and references to theocracy. Arbitrarily saying here, "bias", is another problem. There is no excuse for comments that dismiss Arab sources out of hand. Arab or Saudi sources are just as valid to use on Jewish topics as Israeli or other Western sources. Lawrence Cohen 19:52, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Lawrence, you're welcome to respond to the substance of my point above, and I'd certainly welcome it. Slurring insinuations on the motives of other editors and baseless accusations of bias are not as welcome.

IronDuke

23:55, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

What "insinuations"? At

Amaliq (talk

) 00:09, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

"the concept that no Saudi has any journalistic integrity is an absurd, racist generalization." That is indeed correct. Good thing I never advanced such a concept.

IronDuke

00:28, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Still, "differences of journalistic integrity and freedom of speech" does not mean a source is not reliable. Do we maintain a list of nations that we devalue sources from? Who maintains the list, where is it, and who decides what nations we think aren't worth noting in Wikipedia? A Saudi source is as valid as an Israeli source, as a Pakistani source, as a Japanese source. Nation of origin means nothing. Lawrence Cohen 16:43, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

"Nation of origin means nothing." That is, of course, wholly incorrect. It would be difficult, in fact, to overstate precisely how wrong that is. I'll just say that countries which do not value journalistic freedom, and in which journalists are heavily censored, do not produce reliable, quality journalism.

IronDuke

02:52, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

A user reverted my removal of this difficult-to-verify and highly general statement from the Malt liquor article: "Country Club is now owned by Pabst and is still sold today, though its sales were eclipsed years ago by almost every malt liquor on the market" (emphasis added). He also added a source--of sorts: Gary Galeke, Brand Historian, Pabst Brewing Company. Telephone. October 1, 2006. I'm not sure telephone interviews with alleged experts are considerable reliable sources, by Wikipedia's definition--and they are certainly not verifiable. What is the best way to handle this? Delete the unverifiable source? Request a better one? Engage in an edit war? (just kidding)--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 13:21, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

• Sounds a lot like
  original research if he called him up and asked. // Liftarn (talk
  )
  • Certainly fails
    WP:V, so not a reliable source Mayalld (talk
    ) 14:50, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
    • Feel free to call the source up, I'll give you his number. Unfortuantly when it comes to nitch topics such as Malt Liquor sales, not every source can be published through traditional means. The source it's that web savvy thus the lack of email backup or web postings. However, I knew this person was a good source for the desired info not only on his job position, but several talks he gave in the local area. Why Fat Man is so honed in on these two sentences when the rest of the article is such junk, I have no idea. --Brownings (talk) 15:18, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
      • That is the definition of
        original research, which is not allowed. If somebody edit wars to restore the original research, let me know and I will help them stop. - Jehochman ^Talk
        15:36, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
        • No worries, it doesn't look like an edit war is getting ready to start. FYI, I'm the other party in Fat Man's dispute. Since the majority here seems to be siding with Fatty, I guess I don't have a leg to stand on, which is fine. However, I am a tad upset that Fatty seems to have taken things so personal and bent on removing such a small comment from a rather insignificant article. His/Her efforts would be much more useful in actually contributing to the article, rather than perusing this nonsense. While Fatty has singled out these couple of sentences, if they are to be pulled from the article, then all information pertaining to Country Club should be deleted. While I won't do Fatty's dirty work for him/her, I'll gladly kill off the other bits if Fatty zaps the area in question. --Brownings (talk) 01:50, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
          • It's not nonsense. It's basic Wikipedia policy. Indeed, in the 2005 formulation of the No Original Research policy, a private conversation with someone, even someone who is an expert, was given as an explicit example of sources that one should not be basing one's Wikipedia contributions on. Until the experts get their information peer reviewed and published, it does not belong in Wikipedia. Wikipedia is a tertiary source, and our sources when making it are things that have been written down, peer reviewed, fact checked, and published, so that readers can check articles for correctness against published sources that they know to be fact checked, reliable, accurate, and actually documenting accepted human knowledge. If you aren't building Wikipedia that way, you are doing it wrongly. See User:Uncle G/On sources and content. Uncle G (talk) 22:36, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
      • Indeed... clearly
        original research. Wikipedia is not the forum for introducing unpublished material. Blueboar (talk
        ) 15:39, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

The following two sources: Source #1 and Source #2 are being given reliance for a statement that Samuel Hahnemann was accused of quackery. Both of these sources are excerpted in relevant part in this talk page discussion. Readers are left with the impression that some verifiable accusation exists supported by reliable sources. That is not the case in my opinion.

A third source, Hahnemann himself in Section 74 of the Organon of Medicine was a strong critic of the common medical practices of his day such as the regular use of mercury and leeches as curatives. We would call those practices quackery and Hahnemann condemned them in equivalent terms. In my opinion it is a violation of

This is especially egregious because the article is on Quackery and Hahnemann is used as the first prominent example of someone accused, when no reliable source accuses him of having been a quack. To the contrary, these sources upon which reliance is being made are supportive of Hahnemann. To cherry pick words, not even whole sentences, out of context and then formulate these vaguely made slurs as "accusations" which should stand unopposed seems strongly at variance with the sources. —Whig (talk) 07:02, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Some important points to keep in mind in this dispute:

• The truth or falsity of the accusations is not the issue and is irrelevant to this discussion.
• Hahnemann's opinions on other matters, and his life in general, are not relevant here. Even the worst of criminals may well have done some good things in their life. That would not legitimize attempts to document the fact that they had been accused of crimes. (I'm not saying Hahnemann was a criminal. That's just to illustrate the point.)
• The only thing we are after here is whether he was accused of quackery and whether the sources we are using to document that undeniable fact are RS.

The interesting thing here is that if we had used anti-homeopathy sources to document charges of quackery, we could be accused of cherry picking from biased sources to find documentation. Even though that might well be legitimate, we totally avoid this accusation by going to pro-homeopathic sources to find that even they are not in doubt that Hahnemann was accused of quackery, even while he was alive. That his accusers were right about him and wrong in other areas is irrelevant to the fact that he was accused. That is clearly documented by pro-homeopathy sources. If they were in doubt, then they wouldn't have mentioned it. To illustrate from the "other direction", it's always easy to find nice comments about oneself from one's friends, but when one's enemies make nice comments about oneself, it is even better to quote them....;-) That removes the possibility of being accused of cherrypicking or inaccuracy. If one's enemies will concede that you are a nice person, then there must be something to it. It's hard to find more RS in such a case. --

talk

15:37, 21 December 2007 (UTC)