Talk:African immigration to Europe

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This article was nominated for deletion on 6 September 2008 (UTC). The result of the discussion was keep.

• please is true!! the bleck Italians are 755,000 no cancel I'am from Italy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.35.250.214 (talk) 21:49, 12 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Sorry this not true are more 755,000! the black in italy are 871,126! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.35.233.160 (talk) 12:11, 13 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• I' am sorry, but whay you canc everythink? i have sommet the black south shara and black from North Africa, the black in Italy are 871,126. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.35.233.160 (talk) 12:15, 13 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

So you say. But such statements must be sourced in wikipedia. The Ogre (talk) 12:18, 13 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Don't forget Eastern Europe http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afro-Abkhazians http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afro-Russians One notable 19th century African-European: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abram_Petrovich_Gannibal (ancestor of Pushkin). Also Peter Ustinov has african ancestry. - ArnoldPlaton (talk) 13:06, 29 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

according to solis marketing there are 1,000,080 black people in france.in comparison the city of london, England has a larger black population 1,100,000 than the entire country of France.blacks in the Republic of Ireland make up 1.1 percent of the Irish population in just the last 10 years compared to France with 1,000,080 blacks or 1.7 percent of the French population.france has restricted the immigration of blacks into france for more than a decade where other european union countries have increased the amount of blacks coming in. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.250.233.228 (talk) 14:57, 4 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

there is another source that puts the black population of france at just 240,000.for example there are 11,700,000 people in the paris region of ile de france,of this number only 50,000 are black but the north african arabs mainly algerians number close to 3 million.in comparison the city of london with a population of around 7,000,000 has a black population of 1,100,000 thats 22 times more blacks than the paris region. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.250.233.228 (talk) 00:01, 21 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I think alot of people confuse the stats for north african arabs and blacks.the north african arabs number around 5 million but blacks number only around 240,000. the stats for blacks such as 1.5 million and up are many times higher than the actual number of 240,000.blacks are actually one of the smallest minority groups in france. north africans ,chinese and even east asians outnumber blacks in france.the paris region of ile de france has 11,700,000 people out of this number about 3 million are north african arabs ,400,000 are chinese about 100,000 are east asian and only 50,000 are black. for example london, england has a total population of about 7,500,000 out of this number there are 1,100,000 blacks which is 22 times more than the entire paris region of ile de france.if nobody minds im gonna go ahead and change the actual numbers in the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.250.233.228 (talk) 12:35, 7 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It would be useful to have some sources here. Not all Africans in France are black, and I am pretty sure that there are many more French of Alegrian origin than black French. Still these figures above are highly doubtful. France doesn't have any figures about the ethnicity of its peoples, it is illegal even to count people based on their ethnic background. Staing that only 50,000 blacks live in Paris seems to be an extreem exaggeration, and based on what? The only bases I have is my experience of being in several parts of the Ile de France region and otehr metropolitan aereas in Europe. Living in a city is not a scientifical proof of the importance of blacks in that city but my experience is that the black presence is strongest and most influencial in London, Paris, Rotterdam and Lisbon. These 4 cities seem to have black communities of comparable size, importance and influence. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 157.193.88.21 (talk) 10:23, 28 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

no,paris does not have a comparable black population like london or rotterdam.paris(including all of ile de france) has a very tiny black population of 50,000 blacks out of a total paris population of 12,000,000 compared to london of 1,000,100 blacks out of a total london population of 7,000,000. a further breakdown shows there are 10,000 blacks in paris proper,30,000 in seine saint denis and 10,000 distributed amongst the other 6 departments of ile de france.the north african arabs number close to 4 million though. even the chinese 400,000 and east asian indians 100,000 outnumber the blacks 50,000 in paris. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.250.233.228 (talk • contribs) 08:55, 22 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You can say any number, it doesn't change the fact you don't provide any source (and that such source would not be credible anyway, because such statistics are illegal in France). Don't forget that France has overseas territories with lots of black people, like Martinique, Guadeloupe, Guiana, Réunion, Mayotte, etc. No statistics either but that easily makes one million blacks if not two. Aesma (talk) 11:21, 18 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

French statistics does not provide data on peolpe's skin colour, religion or ethnicity, but there are numbers giving their country of birth. As you can see from that list: http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Démographie_de_l'île-de-France in the Greater Paris Area (Île-de-France) 155,000 born in Guadeloupe or Martinique (overseas territories and part of France, but counted here separately from Metropolitan France), 31,000 from Haiti and 267,000 from Sub-Saharan Africa. As this list is not exhaustive, many African countries of origin do not appear. When we assume that the percentage of people that would not be classified as "Black" ist very low in these territories and if we count the second- and third-generation Black French, a number of 1,000,000-1,500,000 seems realistic to me. Other statistics shows the number of births from Maghrebinian and Sub-Saharan African families. If we assume about the same fertility rate and add the people of Afro-Caribbean descent, the number of those two groups seems to be about the same. You don't have to be a demography specialist to note that large parts of Paris have a significant Black population, e.g. the north and east of Paris proper, the Seine-Saint-Denis département and also most cities in the Val-de-Marne. Paris is one of the centers of Afro-Caribbean and Sub-Saharan culture in Europe. And these numbers don't account for the rest of the countries - while most Black French live in the Île-de-France area, especially Lyon or Marseille also have a significant Black/African population. By the way, French immigration laws were quite lax in the 1970s and 1980s, were made stricter by the conservative government since 1993 and again since 2002. Most of immigration from Africa happens on the illegal way and many sans-papiers are legalized after some years - the fact that a rich country closed its borders for poor Non-Europeans is a pan-European, not only a French phenomenon. Just to add some statistical facts to this older discussion... 82.123.135.245 (talk) 00:56, 26 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

In Italy there are 2,670,514 black peoples!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.35.237.84 (talk) 17:04, 16 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

No, there are not 2,670,514 black people in Italy. As already explained to you, that figure refers to all immigrants to Italy from Africa, not just black immigrants from Africa. 76.68.249.38 (talk) 19:18, 16 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

the black people in Italy are 800,000 not 230,000 demo istat 2010 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.35.241.126 (talk) 08:37, 7 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

come mai mi cancella ogni volta, il numero dei Black people in italy?? prima erano del 0,2 mentre adesso in italia, the black people in italy are 1-5 milione. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.35.231.137 (talk) 15:23, 16 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

official figures only reflect people registered in the respective countries, while a significant part of African immigrants don't register at all but live as

There are 12,600 foreign nationals from East Africa in Switzerland. This is a recorded statistical fact. God knows how many of them are "black" in any sense. They are from East Africa, and they will be described as "African" or "black" by almost any casual onlooker, even though official statistics do not, of course, classify them by race. Nor would I, if this article didn't insist to be about race or "blackness". Now Middayexpress (talk · contribs) has changed "12,600 East Africans" to "3,600 Southeast Africans",[1] even thought the source linked has no concept of a "Southeast Africa". I can only guess that the idea is that "Northeast Africans" are "not black" while "Southeast Africans" are. I have no idea what definition of "Southeast Africa" has been used, as the "3,600" figure has no correspondence in the source linked. Even worse, the edit removed 9,000 "Northeast Africans" from the footnote, but left the total of 37,000 untouched. This is simply fiddling with numbers without any rhyme or reason.

These are the countries listed as East African by the Swiss Federal Statistics Office: Burundi, Comores, Djibuti, Eritrea, Äthiopien, Kenya Madagascar, Malawi, Mauritius, Mosambique, Rwanda, Seychelles, Somalia, Tanzania, Uganda, Zambia, Zimbabwe. It does not include Sudan (listed as Central African) nor does it include Egypt (North Africa). It is safe to say that any European residents from any of the countries listed will be included under the term "Afro-Europeans" or "black people in Europe" with extremely high probability.

The restriction to "Southeast Africa" has not been explained, nor has it been explained how the "3,600" figure has been arrived at. The official source linked includes "Horn Africa" within "East Africa", and I don't see any problem with that. Of course you could present a full breakdown by country, but this would be better placed at the African immigrants to Switzerland article, because the 37,000 people under consideration here make up for just about 0.5% of the population discussed in this article.

In my opinion, the real problem with this article is that it attempts a topic of immmigration in terms of race. In most countries, once somebody becomes naturalized, they cease to be considered as "from somewhere" by any official statistics. There is an unknown number of African immigrants who have been naturalized over the past decades, and who are now simply Europeans, and nobody short of all-out racists will care whether they are "black".

The problem of immigration from Africa is something quite different. Of course these immigrants will tend to be "black" (doh), but they are not a problem by virtue of being black, they are a problem by virtue of arriving in large numbers from economically underdeveloped and culturally vastly different backgrounds. They are counted and given some sort of residence status (unless they go underground), and it makes sense to treat them as a group.

It is completely insane to group born-and-raised European citizens with this group just because of their melanin content.

--

seeing

dab (𒁳) 12:29, 15 June 2011 (UTC)[reply

]

Actually, I'm a member of WikiProject Ethiopia; hence, why I mainly edit such articles. You are, however, correct in noting that the cited link has no concept of "Southeast Africans". But you forgot to mention the obvious: the link has no concept of "blackness" either and who supposedly falls under that rubric. That is original research to begin with. That said, besides the foregoing, I removed Northeast Africans from the list and re-tabulated the figures accordingly because, if one is aware of the former's biological, linguistic and cultural affinities, one probably already knows that the bulk of their overall ancestry ties them up with North Africa and/or Southwest Asia, not with West Africans, Bantus or Nilotes (i.e. "Black Africans") despite a similar complexion and modern geographic proximity. Seeing as how North Africans are not included in this article, it therefore makes no sense to include their close relatives the modern Ethiopians either. Also, the name "Ethiopia" was only adopted in the early 20th century to refer to the former Abyssinia and its predecessor, the

Axumite Empire (c.f. [2]). Whatever the case, the term "Ethiopians" of yore did not refer to Axumites but to the Black Africans that the so-called civilized world knew of at the time, and that was primarily Nilotes in the Nubian region ("Cambyses did subdue at least a part of the real Ethiopia (Nubia) beyond the First Cataract, as appears from surveys of the Persian Empire which Herodotos quotes elsewhere; its revenues included 'gifts' from 'the Ethiopians on the borders of Egypt, whom Cambyses conquered', and their warriors are described in his list of fighting men of the empire, whether or not Xerxes really took them to Greece" [3]). Regards, Middayexpress (talk) 19:03, 15 June 2011 (UTC)[reply

]

How did I "forget to mention" that the link has "no concept of blackness"? Most of my comment concerned the problem that this article pretends to be about skin colour. This is stupid. A black US citizen (African American) immigrating to Europe will just be a US citizen in Europe. This has nothing to do with "Afro-Europeans". What this article is about, and should be about explicitly, is Africans in Europe, not "blackness". If you want to discuss racial concepts based on colour terminology, perhaps color terminology for race would be a more convenient article. The rest of your comment only confirms my suspicion that you are trying to create a definition of "black" that lumps Ethiopians with North Africans as "white". This is not only silly, it is also irrelevant to this article. There are only two kinds of people that believe that "blackness" is a valid concept:

1. White supremacists
2. Afrocentrists

Both are equally unwelcome to Wikipedia under

Actually, I have not tried to lump Ethiopians with North Africans nor could I have even done so since North Africans are of course not even discussed in this article. I briefly alluded to the multiple affinities between the two groups of peoples to highlight the folly of attempting to erect rigid 'racial' boundaries between these particular sympatric populations (which is the net effect of include one of them but yet not the other). I could also return the favor and speculate on why you keep grouping Ethiopians et al. with supposed "black" East Africans when the paper itself does not. But that too would not be

English to begin with -- still makes no reference to the controversial race concept, let alone the so-called "black race" and which populations supposedly fall under that rubric. That said, if you are interested in discussing how to change the scope of this article, including the lede, so that it actually discusses immigration in general from the African continent rather than a contentious racial label, I'm of course open to that and support any such motion. Middayexpress (talk) 20:50, 20 June 2011 (UTC)[reply

]

The 3.6 million figure the article claims is almost certainly inflated. I don't think there is any census data to back that up - the link we're using as a reference is dead. ˜˜˜˜ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.239.145.114 (talk) 22:59, 21 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

This article is only about people from Africa. The black people referred here are all from Africa and don't include black Australians, Pacific Islander, or Indian black populations. Other than that it makes more sense to classify people on their common geographical ancestry (which most European countries actually do) than on their skin color. If nobody is against it I will propose a name change in a few days to 'African Europeans'. FonsScientiae (talk) 21:49, 6 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

"African Europeans" is an inadequate title since the Afro-Caribbean immigrants, such as those from the Netherland Antilles, are not Africans. "Afro-Europeans" would thus make more sense. Middayexpress (talk) 14:49, 7 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

"Afro" is just the abbreviation of "African". Afro-Caribbeans (also called African-Caribbeans) are called Afro-Caribbeans because they have African descent. (1) And this article is about people who have African descent. FonsScientiae (talk) 15:57, 7 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

"African American" and "African Carribean" refer specifically to New World peoples with Black African ancestry [5]. As far as the portion of their ancestry from Africa is concerned, African Americans and Afro-Caribbeans are mainly of West and Central African origin. There are large parts of Africa where they have little ancestry from. In any case, the term "African Europeans" is something of a

WP:COMMONNAME. Middayexpress (talk) 16:53, 7 August 2012 (UTC)[reply

]

African: "relating to Africa or people of African descent." (1). Afro: "a hairstyle consisting of a mass of very tight curls that stick out all round the head, like the natural hair of some black people" (1). It doesn't seem that Afro is more commonly used than African to describe people of African descent. FonsScientiae (talk) 19:59, 7 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The compound word "Afro-European" is more commonly used than the neologism "African European"; obviously not the prefix "Afro" alone. Google bears that out too. Middayexpress (talk) 15:38, 8 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

"African European" in Google gives you 412k results, while "Afro-Europeans" only 153k. "African European people" gives 18,200 results, while "Afro-European people" gives 17,800 results. Whether "African European" is a neologism it's used more, or at least to the same degree.
To make this discussion move forward I'm willing to compromise and use both terms in the lede of the article, but I am firm to give the article the "African European" or "European people of African descent" titles. Please see

Africans of European descent articles.
You said that Afro-Caribbeans are not Africans. I've been thinking about it, and I think you are right. They have distinct cultures, and may actually never lived in Africa or their degree of African ancestry is very distant and/or small. I'm now on the opinion that they should not be included in the article. FonsScientiae (talk) 16:01, 8 August 2012 (UTC)[reply

]

"African European" does give more raw Google hits, but many of those are not to the suggested meaning. Many allude to "African and European" or something to that effect (e.g. the African-European Affairs Consulting [6]), whereas most of the hits to "Afro-European" point to the intended meaning. I'm not sure about the page rename at this point. The problem with the title is that it might confuse contributing editors into thinking it refers to immigrants from Africa in general (like African Australians) rather than a specific subset of African immigrants. How does "Black African immigrants to Europe" sound (i.e.

Black African immigrants to Greece or Black Africans in Poland)? Middayexpress (talk) 16:38, 8 August 2012 (UTC)[reply

]

I see no reason differentiating and dividing Africans based on their skin color. With adding non-black (where is the line?) Africans to the article it would still not be too long.(like in African Australians) Wikipedia not coincideally don't have an article called "Black Africa". "African immigrants to Europe" is a good enough and not a long title. (

African immigrants to Italy, African immigration to Norway, African immigrants to Sweden, African immigrants to Switzerland). I'm willing to add Africans of any skin color. FonsScientiae (talk) 19:23, 8 August 2012 (UTC)[reply

]

If the article were to be renamed "African immigrants to Europe", it would have to actually discuss all African immigrants to Europe, irrespective of racial background. Middayexpress (talk) 14:02, 9 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Exactly. The article is currently about that. The European Council makes report on immigration from Sub-Saharan Africa not on "race", and except the UK none of the countries here make statistics on skin color. "Racial" classification is not common in Europe. FonsScientiae (talk) 18:12, 10 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The article is not currently about African immigrants to Europe in general, as is evident from its title and the inclusion of material on Afro-Caribbean people. If the page is to be renamed to "African immigrants to Europe", it has to be about actual African immigrants to Europe, and all of them at that. Middayexpress (talk) 13:32, 11 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Okay. I can do that. FonsScientiae (talk) 14:20, 11 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Right. By the way, your page move erased the entire article history. I don't believe it's supposed to do that. Middayexpress (talk) 16:44, 11 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, I wasn't intending to do that. There was some problem with moving the page normally. FonsScientiae (talk) 09:28, 12 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Sure. Middayexpress (talk) 13:02, 12 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The lead of the article said "African immigrants in Europe are either born in Africa or are of African descent but live in Europe." And the "Notable individuals" section included many people who were born in Europe. So the title African immigration to Europe did not accurately represent the content of the article. ... discospinster _talk 02:48, 28 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, the notable individuals section only includes people born in Europe if one of their parents was born in Africa. The two migration flows sections are explicitly about immigrants from Africa, as are the demographic sections. For example, the first demographic section only includes "anyone who was born in Africa or had at least one parent from the continent." Essentially, the only part of the whole entry that was not about immigrants was the phrase "or are of African descent but live in Europe," so I would argue it makes more sense to revert the name back to African immigration to Europe, which is what it had been for the past 7 years after a long consensus on this talk page. Then we could remove that one phrase "or are of African descent" in the lede so that it more accurately reflects the entirety of the article, which is about immigration not about the African diaspora. What do you think? Aroundthewayboy (talk) 21:22, 28 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I think that the title African immigrants in Europe still does not reflect the content of the page if we are to include those who were born in Europe (especially those countries that have a birthright citizenship law). Claiming that European-born people are immigrants is inaccurate and implies that they are not "true" Europeans, which is particularly suspect when we are talking about people of African descent. ... discospinster _talk 16:22, 29 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, I hadn't considered that, good point. I agree and am going to remove the first-gen (people born in Europe but with one parent from Africa) in the lede. Now it is all about African immigrants (I can start to remove the celebrities who were born in Europe, to avoid the problem above). Aroundthewayboy (talk) 01:15, 30 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I went through and removed everybody in the notable individuals list who was not born in Africa. I think now the page is truly entirely about immigrants from Africa in Europe, right? Aroundthewayboy (talk) 16:36, 30 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

OK that makes it more consistent. Thanks for doing that. ... discospinster _talk 13:53, 1 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Women has always been less prominent than men through history. If you go to see any other page about people, you can see that women in collage pictures are few compared to men. E.g. there are only 3 women out of 27 on the French people page, only 9 women of 32 on the British people page, and only 4 of 30 on the German people page. The 50-50 proportion is not warranted. Representation by different region is not what should determine who are included in the collage. What really matters is prominence and notability. That's why I believe the former image was better. FonsScientiae (talk) 09:39, 12 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I have no doubt that you believe the other collage was better. However, it isn't. It overrepresented immigrants from certain African regions, and underrepresented those from others. One notable individual from each of the six main regions is sufficient: Central, East, Horn, North, West, Southern. Same goes for the women, who represent a significant proportion of African immigrants. Wikipedia has various policies and guidelines on

Template:Ethnic_group#Parameters; while you're at it, note that African immigrants to Europe aren't even an ethnic group). The purpose of the article is to discuss African immigration, not celebrities. Let's not lose sight of that. Middayexpress (talk) 13:02, 12 August 2012 (UTC)[reply

]

None of your reasons are applicable here, as gender-neutrality is relevant to language, and sexism has to do with style. If you have ever read a history book you would know that women has been underrepresented through history and it's not my personal opinion. Actually, there is no Wikipedia policy that states that the collage has to include the same number of women as men, or that every region of the topic has to be represented. By the way, I like your image, but still think that the former was better as that represented more diverse and prominent members. Also, I wouldn't call Eto'o or Jomo Kenyatta African immigrants or African Europeans as they have never established themselves in Europe. So I'm reverting back your edits unless you can provide a warranted Wikipedia policy which favors your image more. (As an alternative I can imagine combining the two images or creating a new one appropriate for the both of us) FonsScientiae (talk) 16:41, 13 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, Jomo Kenyatta studied in Britain and was an alumni of both the

Tajik people. However, African immigrants to Europe obviously do not constitute a single ethnic group; they are instead a random collection of peoples from various and often-times completely unrelated ethnic groups or populations, whose only definite commonality is the fact that they emigrated to the same continent from the same continent. I have therefore removed the ethnic group infobox per the relevant Template:Infobox ethnic group and in the model of pages like African immigration to Latin America, which have no ethnic group infobox. Middayexpress (talk) 12:33, 14 August 2012 (UTC)[reply

]

If you go to the African immigration to the United States article, which is one of the most developed immigration pages, you can see that there is a collage picture and an infobox. 64.189.103.209 (talk) 02:51, 17 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

That makes no difference. The infobox is for an actual, recognizable ethnic group and is clearly labeled as such. It is not for a motley crew of people from different ethnic groups or populations, whose only definite commonality is the fact that they emigrated to the same continent from the same continent. The infobox template is also part of

WikiProject:Ethnic Groups, which stipulates that Infobox Ethnic group is "an infobox for use in articles about ethnic groups." This page falls outside that scope. Middayexpress (talk) 13:20, 26 September 2012 (UTC)[reply

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Prior content in this article duplicated one or more previously published sources. The material was copied from: http://www.cfr.org/world/african-migration-europe/p13726, http://europa.eu/legislation_summaries/development/african_caribbean_pacific_states/r13009_en.htm and http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/6228236.stm. Copied or closely paraphrased material has been rewritten or removed and must not be restored, unless it is duly released under a compatible license. (For more information, please see

WHEN THE EU PROVIDE JOB FOR EMIGRANT — Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.61.15.38 (talk) 01:16, 22 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

How is Kylian Mbappe an immigrant when he was born and raised in France??? Nlivataye (talk) 17:38, 30 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]