Talk:History of Prayagraj
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Inaccurate and misleading history of Prayag
The article is full of inaccurate and misleading statements. Prayag was (and still is) an ancient holy city of India mentioned in the Vedic scriptures and texts. Prayag was renamed Allahabad by the Mughal ruler Akbar around 1575 or even later. Akbar was grandson of the Mughal invader Babur. During the Vedic period neither Mughals existed nor Allahabad. To suggest otherwise is clearly distorting the history of India. Lord Rama went to Prayag. Hsuan Tsang, the Buddhist scholar and pilgrim from China visited Prayag, not Allahabad. Editors please, be accurate and do not distort the history of India by making inaccurate and misleading statements. Please note that by making misleading statements and writing inaccurately you will not change the true history of India. Please note Wikipedia is an Encyclopedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.38.65.137 (talk) 19:57, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
Name change from History of Allahabad to Prayagraj
Name has been changed from allahabad to prayagraj. Now it also should be changed Rahil1610 (talk) 04:48, 28 May 2023 (UTC)
Requested move 10 July 2023
- The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
History of Allahabad be renamed and moved to History of Prayagraj .
result: Move logs: source title · target title
This is template {{subst:Requested move/end}} |
mention me) 04:31, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
]
- Surely you meant History of Prayagraj. Prayag is the part of Allahabad/Prayagraj near the river junction. Some people think that modern Allahabad/Prayagraj is on the site of ancient Prayag; but that is not certain.-- Toddy1 (talk) 10:52, 10 July 2023 (UTC)
- He must have meant Prayagraj. I've updated the nomination. Walt Yoder (talk) 01:19, 11 July 2023 (UTC)]
- He must have meant Prayagraj. I've updated the nomination.
- Oppose. It was called Allahabad for well over 400 years. Its history is as Allahabad. -- Necrothesp (talk) 12:37, 11 July 2023 (UTC)
- If the duration for which a name was used is the criteria, then Prayagraj/Prayag is been used for thousands of years. Wikipedia mist use the name what it is been called today, not what it was called in last 400 or 4000 years. Anubhavklal (talk) 10:03, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
- "Prayagraj" is a new name, only a few years old, it is not the same as "Prayag". - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 11:22, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose, though renaming the article History of Allahabad. It seems perverse to want to get rid of the historic (and still widely used) name in an article on the history of the city.-- Toddy1 (talk) 06:23, 12 July 2023 (UTC)]
- Support The page of the city has been already moved and we shouldn't be having this discussion anymore. It's ludicrous to keep the historic name of city in the related articles when the main article has already been renamed.–JayB91 (talk) 21:21, 13 July 2023 (UTC)
- Support - It is only illogical to not move this page since the name of the city page is already moved. Don't know why we are discussing similar thing over amd over again. It was advised to move all the pages in a similar way after Allahabad was moved to Prayagraj except that of the high court. But here we are again. And still there are people opposing. Just for clarity Prayag was where Triveni Sangam is which is at Prayagraj. Allahabad was there only for 400 years but no trace of since when it was Prayag.
- Shaan Sengupta (talk) 05:05, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
- It is only because some editors here, who may be more experienced in editing Wikipedia, appear to beleive that any change to what is already written should be delayed as much as possible. We all know that eventually it will change, but till that time the readers have to live with obsolete information and hence credibility of Wikipedia is impacted negetively.
- I may be blocked by any such user with accusations of personal attack, but my intent is not exactly same. Anubhavklal (talk) 10:09, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose - per points raised by @Necrothesp and Toddy1:. Also "History of Allahabad" has far more hits in Googlebooks as compare to the minuscule "History of Prayagraj" in quotes. Also "Prayagraj" is a new name, only a five years old, it is not the same as "Prayag", the historical name. Nothing but present govt's POV that is behind such a move requests. "Prayag" looks liek a far better choice than the -raj suffixed word - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 11:23, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
- Prayag is a locality in the city (in the same way that Vauxhall is a locality in London). It would be possible to have an article on the history of that locality, but logically it should omit parts of the history that relate to other parts of the city - this is true of both Allahabad/Prayagraj and London.-- Toddy1 (talk) 14:55, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
- Support - as @JayB91 said, the main article has already been moved to Prayagraj so it makes sense to move/rename the related article titles as well. — AKSHADÉV™ 💬 11:36, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose. I don't have opinions of its present name. But the historical name for the city is Allahabad, and that is how it is overwhelmingly referred to in RSs about its history. Retaining the historical name in historical contexts is helpful to readers. Walrasiad (talk) 16:46, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
- Historical name is also Prayagraj, and current name is also Prayagraj, common use today is also Prayagraj. I support having a redirect from other names like Allahabad or Illahabad, just in case some links point to this name Anubhavklal (talk) 17:29, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
Support: Official and common name as per ahreps tool.WP:SOCKSTRIKE)]
- @Fayninja: Please can you supply diffs or similar from the tool. Or at the very least, please provide a link to the tool you are talking about.-- Toddy1 (talk) 09:21, 18 July 2023 (UTC)
Average monthly searches of the term 'prayagraj' on Google from the last 12 months in India: 133K- The same for 'allahabad': 110K
Tool linkWP:SOCKSTRIKE)]
- @Fayninja: Please can you supply diffs or similar from the tool. Or at the very least, please provide a link to the tool you are talking about.-- Toddy1 (talk) 09:21, 18 July 2023 (UTC)
- Strong Oppose - the modern city was founded by the Mughals who called it Allahabad, most of the sources also call it Allahabad. It's about the History of Allahabad/Prayag. I possible compromise would be something similar to the Gdansk Vote with altered timelines. Crainsaw (talk) 12:21, 19 July 2023 (UTC)
- I'd also like to add Google Ngrams aren't reliable, as shown by this study by Cambridge
Taylor, Benjamin; Sean, Richey (2019). Google Books Ngrams and Political Sciences: Two Validity Tests for a Novel Data Source. Cambridge University Press.
ISBN 978-3-319-57345-8.the various capitalization issues denote differing densities of usage.
- It proceeded to show an Ngram search result for the term "Climate change" with different capitalizations. And how it varies drastically, I reproduced the result here. And on top of that, I'd also like to add when you search up names of cities such as Bombay (Now Mumbai) on Google, it will show Mumbai, with the description of city in India, and when you click on it, the search query will automatically change to Mumbai, even if you wrote Bombay. Crainsaw (talk) 12:49, 19 July 2023 (UTC)
- Support - the city is ancient and been known by many names Prayaga, Allahabad, Illahabad, Ilahabas and Prayagraj. The city page is known on Wikipedia as Prayagraj so the History of... Should be of same name instead one of older name which creates confusion.Pamelathequeen (talk) 15:25, 19 July 2023 (UTC)
- Support to match the parent article. This seems to be how it's done with other Indian cities (cf. History of Chennai, History of Kochi). — AjaxSmack 04:42, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
- Kochi's articles name was changed because the Indians name for the city was Kochi, while the British called it Cochin, but Allahabad's name remained unchanged by the British. Crainsaw (talk) 10:59, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
- @Crainsaw — As you said, "The Indian name for the city of Kochi was Kochi", just like that the Indian name of the city of Allahabad was Prayag (from thousands of years). The Mughals changed it to Allahabad. You need to your research more thoroughly. By the way, the parent article has already been moved/renamed so all the related articles should also be moved/renamed.
- Peace! — AKSHADÉV™ 💬 18:07, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
- There is more or less no evidence of continuity between the ancient villages in the area known as Prayag, and the modern settlement of Allahabad, which lies on the foundations of the Mughal Fort. Also, please be aware of ]
- My rationale was not contingent on who renamed it or when, or whether it was more of a respelling. It was simply that at Wikipedia, "History of Foo" articles almost always use the current name of the entity, even if another name was used for much or most of that history (cf. History of Kyiv, History of Gdańsk, History of Eswatini) and this practice is followed in articles on Indian cities as well (e.g. History of Mumbai, History of Kolkata). — AjaxSmack 14:15, 21 July 2023 (UTC)
- As I've explained to you at the talk page of Kaliningrad, those names were changed because cities like Gdańsk ad Wrocław were already a city before German settlement, and it wasn't some small village either, they were fully fledged cities, on the other hand Allahabad, the city, was founded by the Mughals, of course there was a small village or settlement there before, but there is no continuity or any similarities between them except the land they are located on. Mumbai and Kolkata were the original Indian names for the cities anglicized by the British. Crainsaw (talk) 14:53, 21 July 2023 (UTC)
Allahabad is a Muslim colonial imposition on Indian indigenous lands just like the Fatwa-e-Alamgiri. It does not reflect our traditions or culture. Just because Mughals occupied India for some over two centuries, it does not in any way legitimise their rule or confer them the right to name cities. They commissioned a fort in the area and nothing more. The city was built by the people. Prayagraj is the current official name of the city which applies to everything it was before in its long history from a village to a town and then finally a city. All historical name changes will be talked upon in this article as due.WP:SOCKSTRIKE)]- ]
- @]
- As I've explained to you at the talk page of Kaliningrad, those names were changed because cities like Gdańsk ad Wrocław were already a city before German settlement, and it wasn't some small village either, they were fully fledged cities, on the other hand Allahabad, the city, was founded by the Mughals, of course there was a small village or settlement there before, but there is no continuity or any similarities between them except the land they are located on. Mumbai and Kolkata were the original Indian names for the cities anglicized by the British. Crainsaw (talk) 14:53, 21 July 2023 (UTC)
- My rationale was not contingent on who renamed it or when, or whether it was more of a respelling. It was simply that at Wikipedia, "History of Foo" articles almost always use the current name of the entity, even if another name was used for much or most of that history (cf. History of Kyiv, History of Gdańsk, History of Eswatini) and this practice is followed in articles on Indian cities as well (e.g. History of Mumbai, History of Kolkata). — AjaxSmack 14:15, 21 July 2023 (UTC)
- There is more or less no evidence of continuity between the ancient villages in the area known as Prayag, and the modern settlement of Allahabad, which lies on the foundations of the Mughal Fort. Also, please be aware of ]
- Kochi's articles name was changed because the Indians name for the city was Kochi, while the British called it Cochin, but Allahabad's name remained unchanged by the British. Crainsaw (talk) 10:59, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
- Support. As the main article (Prayagraj) has already been renamed. It's pointless to discuss it any further. 202.168.86.23 (talk) 14:44, 22 July 2023 (UTC)
- Support The city article has already been renamed (Prayagraj) hence this should be renamed as well.Pharaoh of the Wizards (talk) 19:02, 23 July 2023 (UTC)
Support: I have been keeping a watch on this discussion. What is causing the delay to make the move? All new sources currently use Prayagraj. (https://indianexpress.com/about/prayagraj/)WP:SOCKSTRIKE)]- Currently there us no consensus (usually consensus requires at least a 2/3 majority, 0lus good arguments), and this isn't about the cities name, it's about the history. Crainsaw (talk) 08:51, 24 July 2023 (UTC)
The move is indeed about the name. What content to put in this article is not in discussion right now.WP:SOCKSTRIKE)]- The city was known by the current name for most of it's history, more sources refer to it as Allahabad rather then the official name. Crainsaw (talk) 10:29, 24 July 2023 (UTC)
- Ahomraj is a sock of a blocked user (one who has commented in the above discussion). Girth Summit (blether) 08:01, 25 July 2023 (UTC)
- Currently there us no consensus (usually consensus requires at least a 2/3 majority, 0lus good arguments), and this isn't about the cities name, it's about the history. Crainsaw (talk) 08:51, 24 July 2023 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.