Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/User/Archive/December 2007

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December 30

Category:Wikipedians interested in counter terrorism

The following discussion is an archived debate regarding the category or categories above. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was speedy rename, uncontroversial. VegaDark (talk) 19:26, 31 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Counter-terrorism and Category:Counter-terrorism
)
Speedy rename: "counterterrorism" (or "counter-terrorism") is one word. – Black Falcon (Talk) 00:53, 30 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:Wikipedians who like the Mirror universe

The following discussion is an archived debate regarding the category or categories above. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was merge. After Midnight 0001 20:53, 5 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Merge Category:Wikipedians who like the Mirror universe to Category:Wikipedians who like Star Trek
Nominator's rationale: The scope of the category is too narrow, being limited essentially to just one article. Thus, a user category is not needed since the article's talk page is the most logical hub for
collaboration. Also, despite being created over 10 months ago, the category still contains only one user. – Black Falcon (Talk) 23:57, 30 December 2007 (UTC)[reply
]
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Catholic schools

The following discussion is an archived debate regarding the category or categories above. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was rename all. After Midnight 0001 20:52, 5 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Propose renaming Category:Jesuit alumni to Category:Jesuit alumni wikipedians Category:Wikipedians by alma mater: Jesuit schools
Nominator's rationale: Rename. The category must clearly indicate its purpose. The old name may be confused with article namespace. (It occurs now to me that in fact it squats a valid article space category.) Laudak (talk) 16:47, 19 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I have tagged these similar subcats of Category:Wikipedians by alma mater: Catholic schools for discussion here.

Category:Capuchin alumni (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Category:Christian Brother (Irish) alumni (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Category:Christian Brother alumni (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Category:Marist Brother alumni (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Category:Salesian alumni (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

They look like categories for mainspace articles, and have been taken as such in Lloyd Monserratt and Marco Travaglio. After trying to understand the associated Catholic school articles, some of these definitely include high schools, though I don't know if they include colleges to be appropriate here. –Pomte 05:20, 24 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • Delete all. These categories do not reflect affiliation with any post-secondary institution (see
    Wikipedia:User categories for discussion/Archive/August 2007#Category:Wikipedians by high school and subcats). Indeed, they do not reflect affiliation with any particular institution. If no consensus to delete, rename per nom. Black Falcon (Talk) 19:30, 27 December 2007 (UTC)[reply
    ]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so that consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
After Midnight 0001 19:32, 30 December 2007 (UTC) relist to check support for BF's suggestion before this is closed rename --After Midnight 0001 19:32, 30 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete all - These don't specify if they are colleges or not, and by looking through I think the categories are for primary education, which we have deemed as too specific for collaboration. Rename all per nom if no consensus to delete. VegaDark (talk) 19:21, 31 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - These just specify what
    List of Jesuit institutions for just one example. - jc37 00:08, 3 January 2008 (UTC)[reply
    ]
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Category:Arab Canadian Wikipedians

The following discussion is an archived debate regarding the category or categories above. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was muti-merge. After Midnight 0001 20:47, 5 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Arab Canadian Wikipedians (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

We already have Category:Arab Wikipedians and Category:Canadian Wikipedians. Categorizing this specifically would allow for any number of nationality/ethnicity combination categories, which would be potentially thousands. This seems like overcategorization. VegaDark (talk) 00:19, 24 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • Merge the 2 members in to relevant categories, then delete, as nom. VegaDark (talk) 00:19, 24 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • I don't know. If I wanted to find someone to collaborate with on Canadian articles, I would go to WikiProject Canada. To collaborate on Arab articles, WikiProject Arab world. But it's exponentially harder to find someone interested in articles about Arab Canadians. Maybe this sort of thing should be clearly listified somewhere, say at the associated WikiProjects. –Pomte 04:14, 24 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • The question then becomes if there are any articles that Arab Canadians are likely to specifically collaborate on (or any other ethnicity-nationalty combination), and more specifically, if such articles do exist, if enough of such articles merit a category rather than just using the talk page of an article. If so, I could support keeping the category. VegaDark (talk) 04:44, 24 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Arab Canadians, with 13 blue links to people and 2 blue links to organizatiions.
Possibly
Iraqi Canadian
, with 10 blue links to people.
Possibly
Syrian Canadian
.
Creation of notable red links.
The number of pages in associated categories don't agree with the number of links in these articles, so work needs to be done to organize them.
From a brief glance, there's no talk activity.
Only 2 people in the category after more than a year; if delete, tell them about each other in case they want to collaborate. –Pomte 05:33, 24 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - Actually, let me reframe my position on this type of category. We allow categorization by basic demographic information, which the Arab Wikipedians and Canadian Wikipedians categories adequately cover. Past that, we allow categorization by what would foster encyclopedic collaboration. The members of this category, as currently named, are not necessarily going to be interested on collaborating on Arab Canadian related articles just because they are one. If they are, they should create a category titled Category:Wikipedians interested in Arab Canadian topics or something similar. VegaDark (talk) 17:56, 28 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so that consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, After Midnight 0001 19:12, 30 December 2007 (UTC) - I can't tell if the 2 people who have commented are currenly advocating keep or merge (or delete). Please clarify (additional opinions from others are also welcome) --After Midnight 0001 19:12, 30 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Wikipedians interested in Natural Sciences

The following discussion is an archived debate regarding the category or categories above. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was delete. After Midnight 0001 20:46, 5 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Wikipedians interested in Natural Sciences (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Nominator's rationale: This is a category for users interested in the natural sciences (presumably referring to the "fields that use the scientific method to study nature from the social sciences" rather than the "rational approach to the study of the universe"). While one might assume that this is a useful "interest" category just like any other, the fact is that there are a number of highly distinct disciplines that can be classified as "natural sciences" (e.g. astronomy, biology, chemistry, physics), and individual categories already exist for them. Thus, the category's scope is much too broad. While this could serve as a parent category for the discipline-specific categories, Category:Wikipedians interested in science is not yet populated to the extent that subcategorisation is needed or warranted. (At this time, subcategorisation of this type would likely hinder navigation more than it would help.)
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Category:Singularitarian Wikipedians

The following discussion is an archived debate regarding the category or categories above. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was delete. After Midnight 0001 20:45, 5 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Singularitarian Wikipedians (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Nominator's rationale: This category, which groups users who believe that
does not foster encyclopedic collaboration
. Merely holding a particular belief implies neither an above-average desire to contribute to articles about the subject (to assume so would likely be presumptuous or stereotyping) nor above-average access to or awareness of resources that could aid encyclopedic writing. In addition, despite being created 1-1/2 years ago, the category contains only a single userpage, associated with an account that has been inactive for 18 months and whose only edit to the mainspace was to an article about Star Trek.
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December 29

Category:Wikipedians with academic publications

The following discussion is an archived debate regarding the category or categories above. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was delete. After Midnight 0001 20:27, 5 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Wikipedians with academic publications (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Nominator's rationale: Thought undoubtedly created in good faith (to supplement {{
Wikipedia:User categories for discussion/Archive/December 2007#Category:Wikipedians by Erdős number and all subcategories
)
  • Delete as nominator. – Black Falcon (Talk) 22:33, 29 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. This is much more relevant as a vanity category than say
    expert}} being successful. Anyone stumbling onto a userpage inside the category may wonder what other Wikipedians have published academically, and the category gives an indication of that, even if it is by no means complete. For anyone suggesting listifcation, it can be listifed directly within the category to spell out subject areas and other details. –Pomte 01:13, 30 December 2007 (UTC)[reply
    ]
  • It is problematic to make any inference of the sort (I've been working on the problem of induction :), but it's done regardless. A disclaimer can be put in the category to say that it is not complete, or that the users may not have proved that they have published, though I think this is obvious. By "listified directly within the category", I mean the category itself can contain the potential list, rather than in project space. Also, I strongly disagree with Marlith and Bedford's reasons below. From this observation, it probably is a good idea to get rid of it to dispel such optimism. My thought was not for people to think that "wow, Wikipedians are awesome based on this sample", but simply that "there are possibly Wikipedians who have created reliable academic sources." By "quality", I didn't mean positive overall quality. –Pomte 09:11, 30 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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December 28

Category:Wikipedians interested in mobile

The following discussion is an archived debate regarding the category or categories above. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was no consensus. After Midnight 0001 20:22, 5 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Propose renaming Category:Wikipedians interested in mobile to Category:Wikipedians interested in mobile telephony
Nominator's rationale: "Wikipedians interested in mobile" is just too ambiguous. – Black Falcon (Talk) 05:04, 23 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so that consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, After Midnight 0001 22:44, 28 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Wikipedians who like Mitch Hedberg

The following discussion is an archived debate regarding the category or categories above. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was delete. After Midnight 0001 20:23, 5 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Wikipedians who like Mitch Hedberg (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Nominator's rationale: This is a category for fans of ]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Wikipedian Devon Werkheiser fans

The following discussion is an archived debate regarding the category or categories above. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was delete. After Midnight 0001 20:21, 5 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Wikipedian Devon Werkheiser fans (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Nominator's rationale: This is a category for fans of ]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

December 25

Category:Eguor editors

The following discussion is an archived debate regarding the category or categories above. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was rename. After Midnight 0001 19:56, 30 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Rename Category:Eguor editors to Category:Eguor Wikipedians - per Wikipedia:Userboxes#Naming conventions (Wikipedian sub-categories). - jc37 11:00, 25 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Rename as nominator. - jc37 11:00, 25 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete as not useful to Wikipedia. Rename per nom if no consensus to delete. VegaDark (talk) 17:15, 25 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep as is - A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds -- Ralph Waldo Emerson ... but if you insist, rename it, don't delete, seems useful to me (I'd be in it if I weren't in the corresponding admin category). ++Lar: t/c 19:31, 25 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep as is, use of term admin and placement in category structure is enough to cover guidance on naming conventions. Also, when did it become common practise for nominator to iterate their position twice? I wouldn't want to see debates become weighted as people constantly reiterate their position. Hiding T 11:29, 26 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    This isn't Category:Eguor admins. You may have confused the two categories. Also, in CfD, these are "discussions", not keep/delete debates. As a result, it's not always clear what the intent of the nominator is. - jc37 14:34, 26 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    Point taken re the category. Still think it's clear enough, but I won't let the door hit me on the arse on the way out. Any nominator who can't make their intentions clear in their nomination would worry me, to be honest. Like I say, I wouldn't want anything to get confused because a position has been iterated twice, which certainly seems to have happened here. I mean, you have said Rename twice, haven't you? I'm just wondering how you didn't think that was clear first time around. I don't get what the fact that this is UCFD has to do with anything. Either you were clear in your first iteration and don't need to clarify, or you weren't clear in your first iteration and, this being a wiki, you shoulod just edit that first iteration for clarity. Hiding T 17:32, 26 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    In my opinion, no closer should ever count bolded text in determining consensus. So it shouldn't matter if I said Rename 50 times. That said, it can be considered confusing if such is done throughout a discussion, and so further comments are typically done as Comment, rather than reiterating rename. As for why I did it above, and typically do so in all CfD/UCfD nominations, I've already explained above. - jc37 00:06, 28 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    No, you didn't actually explain why you did it. You said it's not always clear what the intent is. I'm not sure how it is not clear what you're intent was. Are you suggesting people don't read the nomination? Hiding T 10:30, 28 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    Also, maybe there's value in keeping this to editors. I don't know what the scope of the cat is, but I assume it is to mirror Eguor admins but be for those who aren't admins. If you rename this then it gets muddy over what Eguor admins is for and maybe it is best to keep the two distinct and let individuals sort themselves as they wish rather than attempt to push a de facto category. Don't agree with the deletion opinion,s this seems to follow in the tradition of the long established philosophy cats which the wider community find of use. For the record, 4 users are categorised here, category created 24 June 2007, and it isn't userbox fed. Hiding T 17:37, 26 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    We're all Wikipedians here. And admiship should be "no big deal". Whether admins should have a sub-grouping within the broader grouping of Wikipedians, can be discussed/nominated, I suppose, or not, at "editorial" discretion : ) - jc37 00:06, 28 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    It's germane to the discussion, so I don't see any value in closing that avenue down. If tradition is that we categorise like this, then let's follow that tradition. Hiding T 10:30, 28 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. I agree with the sentiment, but don't think a category is needed for it. Per Vegadark, I'll be ok with a rename if there is no consensus to delete. --Kbdank71 17:19, 26 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete as a category that does not
    a battleground: e.g. "loyal opposition", "Never yield to force; never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy." Black Falcon (Talk) 19:26, 27 December 2007 (UTC)[reply
    ]
  • Note - I left a neutral message pointing Anyeverybody, the creator of this category, and Durova, the creator of the "Eguor admins" category, to this discussion. --Iamunknown 05:36, 28 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Defer to the community. Not quite a neutral comment here: I've received notification and want to acknowledge it. Thank you for informing me. Stepping back with a respectful nod to all editors here. DurovaCharge! 05:40, 28 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Defer also. ]
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December 24

Category:Canadian Wikipedian Bloggers

The following discussion is an archived debate regarding the category or categories above. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was delete. After Midnight 0001 19:30, 30 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Canadian Wikipedian Bloggers (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Overcategorization. We don't need a nationalty tied in with a hobby in the same category, or else we would open the door for hundreds of thousands of category combinations. Category:Wikipedian blogers (which I am amazed doesn't exist) and Category:Canadian Wikipedians is more than sufficient. Alternatively, just rename the category to Category:Wikipedian bloggers VegaDark (talk) 04:20, 24 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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Category:Wikipedians with pictures

The following discussion is an archived debate regarding the category or categories above. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was No consensus. Consensus doesn't have to be reached, and I see little in this debate which suggests that a relisting will solve the issues raised. I suggest further debate takes place between the participants at a more localised venue, perhaps the category talk page, and return the issue to UCFD when more common ground is found. Hiding T 13:17, 26 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Wikipedians with pictures (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Nominator's rationale: While I understand the value of a maintenance category for images of Wikipedians (see
Wikipedia:Facebook, which is actually a more complete and useful (in that it actually displays the images) directory. – Black Falcon (Talk) 05:42, 18 December 2007 (UTC)[reply
]
  • I just want to clarify that I consider potential social networking to be only one issue; there is also the more general issue of lack of collaborative value/potential. Also,
    Wikipedia:Facebook seems to order listing by username as well ... could you please clarify to what you were referring? Thanks, Black Falcon (Talk) 05:54, 18 December 2007 (UTC)[reply
    ]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so that consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, After Midnight 0001 02:43, 24 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ned Scott: If someone doesn't have a high speed internet connection, why would they use this category, and how? Going through to click the various user pages will require more bandwidth. I'm not trying to sway your opinion with this question, it just seems odd. –Pomte 03:28, 24 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • On a practical note, it's infeasible to make this category complete and consistent with the list. Users may not want to be categorized (we'd have to ask their permission anyway), or users may categorize without knowing to add themselves to the list. It's not totally useful then. –Pomte 03:28, 24 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:Public domain minor edit license

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The result of the debate was rename to Category:Wikipedians with public domain text contributions (minor edits only). After Midnight 0001 19:21, 30 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Public domain minor edit license

I propose renaming this category to Category:Wikipedians with public domain text contributions (minor edits). The current name is a bit confusing, while the proposed name specifies to the highest degree possible the nature of users in the category. I've already created a new Category:Wikipedians with public domain text contributions using this naming scheme. --- RockMFR 02:26, 18 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comment is this (or either) category necessary? Couldn't you see "What links here" for the template? —ScouterSig 18:10, 19 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so that consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, After Midnight 0001 02:46, 24 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Wikipedia administrators open to recall/Admin criteria

The following discussion is an archived debate regarding the category or categories above. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was re-org as proposed by Lar. Lar, I'm going to entrust this to your hands, but if you need any bot assistance (or other assistance for that matter) to complete the task, please let me know on my talk page or AMbot's talk or request page. After Midnight 0001 19:48, 30 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Wikipedia administrators open to recall/Admin criteria (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Nominator's rationale: Delete criteria and wikispace stuff inappropriately in category space. Empty too. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 02:39, 24 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. Users' criteria are relevant to a category concerning users. Somewhat weird to claim it is empty too. It is not. --John (talk) 02:47, 24 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Question for the nominator: what alternative do you propose for this information if this page is deleted? A list (such as "Wikipedia:Wikipedia administrators open to recall/Admin criteria")?--A. B. (talk) 03:32, 24 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. This is obviously necessary and should be kept in some form. A list might work better than a category as indicated by the actual use of a list in the category itself, as well as the fact that it currently contains zero pages. But I think it would aid navigation if every recall page is in it, so readers can notice it at the bottom and find other admins' criteria. There can be a list in addition to the category, though it's probably easier for everyone to have the category only. The category can also contain historic pages like Wikipedia:Fully Uncompelled Binding Administrator Recall or personal essays like User:Ral315/Recall. –Pomte 03:45, 24 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete, move to talk page - I don't think we need a subpage for this, why not just use the category's talk page? VegaDark (talk) 03:52, 24 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The talk page, as evidenced by its long history, is for discussion on the concept itself, or maybe even discussion about particular recall criteria, which is enough scope without the list (the "main" content of contention after all). The list can theoretically be put on Category:Wikipedia administrators open to recall itself, but probably not in conjunction with my idea above of categorizing criteria pages. –Pomte 04:06, 24 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, moving it to the Wikipedia space is also fine with me. As per below this page may need a talk page for itself, so I would support that as well. VegaDark (talk) 17:36, 27 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
As for the essays and failed proposals and other things that are not exactly an admin's specific criteria/process, now in the category, seems to me all of those belong on a "see also" page/section perhaps a section on the main category page... or else a subpage Wikipedia:Administrators open to recall/see also... ?? ++Lar: t/c 17:29, 27 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I think you need something like a less wordy version of Category:Pages related to Wikipedia administrators open to recall, or just categorise those pages in Category:Wikipedia administrators open to recall and use the sort order to put the meta stuff seperate from users (e.g. by sorting them all under "*"). The criteria subpage as was seems superflous to me; that information could be copyedited and condensed and placed in the category text of Category:Wikipedia administrators open to recall. --kingboyk (talk) 18:03, 27 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
No, the idea is that by giving links to everyone's (that chooses to make them public) they are easy to find. and to refer to. Condensing down can't be done, everyones presumably would be different. Or at least some people's would. :) ++Lar: t/c 20:56, 27 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Fair enough. Just find a new name then. And you still need to categorise the other pages imho (either in the main cat, e.g. under "*") or in something like Category:Pages related to Wikipedia administrators open to recall. --kingboyk (talk) 22:32, 27 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Keep I really cannot see the harm in this. ]
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Category:Blenderhead Wikipedians

The following discussion is an archived debate regarding the category or categories above. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was delete. After Midnight 0001 19:19, 30 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Blenderhead Wikipedians (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

This category is for Wikipedians who use Blender (software). IMO this is too narrow for collaboration, as members would only be able to collaborate on one page, which the talk page can be used for. My second preference would be a rename to Category:Wikipedians who use Blender (software) if there is no consensus for deletion, since it would make the category's use more clear. VegaDark (talk) 02:08, 24 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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Category:Babylon 5 Fan Wikipedians

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The result of the debate was upmerge. After Midnight 0001 19:19, 30 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Babylon 5 Fan Wikipedians (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Redundant to Category:Wikipedians who like Babylon 5. VegaDark (talk) 00:37, 24 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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December 23

Category:!Wikipedians in Brazil

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The result of the debate was speedy merge, mistake. Picaroon (t) 04:03, 26 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Category:!Wikipedians in Brazil (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Looks like a mistake? Not sure, possibly speedyable if so. In either case, should be merged to Category:Wikipedians in Brazil. VegaDark (talk) 22:45, 23 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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Category:Wikipedians by alma mater: University of Mississippi (Ole Miss)

The following discussion is an archived debate regarding the category or categories above. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was rename. After Midnight 0001 22:52, 28 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Propose renaming Category:Wikipedians by alma mater: University of Mississippi (Ole Miss) to Category:Wikipedians by alma mater: University of Mississippi
Nominator's rationale: To match the title of the main article: University of Mississippi. Black Falcon (Talk) 21:22, 23 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ole Miss isn't used mostly in the context of sports, I was just using that as an example as far as consistant national coverage is concerned. Considering that this category is for students and former students, those are the very exact people that would search for "Ole Miss" before they would "University of Mississippi" simply because they know and used as a student "Ole Miss". It's just the culture of the university. In Mississipppi, whether we're talking about the football team or the medical center the university operates, we say "Ole Miss". Current amd former students, when asked where they go/went to college, don't say "Oh, I go/went to the University of Mississippi". They say "I go/went to Ole Miss". As I said previously, it's one of the few schools that has an official second name, a name that is used more than it's main official name. As it is now, whether they do a search for Ole Miss or University of Mississippi, they will get the same result. If they come searching for "Ole Miss", and most assuredly will before "University of Mississippi", they won't get this cat because it doesn't say Ole Miss on it. Even in the 1960s, newspapers across the country reported about the race riots at "Ole Miss" in their headlines and then in the stories themselves, they gave a mention "University of Mississippi". They used "Ole Miss" in the headlines because that's what most people know the university as. -- ALLSTARecho 00:46, 24 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Additionally, I bet if you go back and look at all of the "University of Mississipp" articles on WP, they were initially created as "Ole Miss" or "Ole Miss" was found in the article title but was later renamed. That's just side proof that people know it as Ole Miss more than University of Mississippi. -- ALLSTARecho 00:48, 24 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • The current title includes both names, which is probably the least likely of all three options. Even if people are more likely to search for "Ole Miss", they surely wouldn't search for "University of Mississippi (Ole Miss)". So, while a category redirect may be a good idea in this case, the category should not remain at its present title. It should be at Category:Wikipedians by alma mater: University of Mississippi or Category:Wikipedians by alma mater: Ole Miss. One thing to keep in mind: although this category contains students and alumni of the university, it is not intended solely for their use. Someone who is not a student or alumnus may not know the second "official title" and so would likely search for the title used by the article. Black Falcon (Talk) 19:46, 27 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • On your resume, would you ever list your alma mater as "Ole Miss"? Didn't think so. I'm a huge sports fan so I am familiar with the name, but I didn't even know it applied outside of athletics. For Wikipedia I think we should rename per nom. Additionally, the article is not titled University of Mississippi (Ole Miss), so if for no other reason, the category should match the article name. If the article name is ever changed, then the category can be changed to match it, but until then we should go with the name currently used on Wikipedia. VegaDark (talk) 20:04, 27 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:Wikipediholic Wikipedians

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The result of the debate was delete. After Midnight 0001 22:52, 28 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Wikipediholic Wikipedians (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
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Category:Wikipedians in quality

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The result of the debate was rename to Category:Wikipedian quality assurance specialists. After Midnight 0001 22:48, 28 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Wikipedians in quality (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Nominator's rationale: This is a category for Wikipedians who work in the fields of quality assurance and quality control (see User:Miller17CU94/Userboxes/User Quality). At minimum, this should be renamed, perhaps to Category:Wikipedian quality assurance specialists (according to Quality assurance, "Quality assurance includes quality control"). However, given that the two professions are substantially different, it may be best to simply delete this category and allow Category:Wikipedian quality assurance specialists and Category:Wikipedian quality control specialists or Category:Wikipedian quality engineers to be created and populated naturally. – Black Falcon (Talk) 07:40, 23 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:Wikipedians who listen to big band

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The result of the debate was rename. After Midnight 0001 22:46, 28 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Propose renaming Category:Wikipedians who listen to big band to Category:Wikipedians who listen to big band music
Nominator's rationale: As "big band" is a type of musical ensemble rather than an actual musical genre, "Wikipedians who listen to big band" is grammatically incorrect. – Black Falcon (Talk) 07:30, 23 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:Wikipedian Enviornmentalists

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The result of the debate was delete (user notified). After Midnight 0001 22:39, 28 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Wikipedian Enviornmentalists (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Nominator's rationale: This is a category for users who "love the Earth" and recycle. User categorisation on this basis
does not foster encyclopedic collaboration, and the sentiment could be expressed via a userpage notice or a userbox. – Black Falcon (Talk) 04:44, 23 December 2007 (UTC)[reply
]
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Category:Wikipedians who listen to Tanz-Metall

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The result of the debate was delete. After Midnight 0001 22:36, 28 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Wikipedians who listen to Tanz-Metall (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
This is a category for editors who listen to a musical "direction" that does not have a head article.
Tanz-Metall redirects to Neue Deutsche Härte; however, that article and the category description suggest that Tanz-Metall is affiliated solely or primarily with the band Rammstein
.
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Category:Wikipedians who does not tolerate harassment

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The result of the debate was delete. After Midnight 0001 22:36, 28 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Wikipedians who does not tolerate harassment (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Nominator's rationale: This category creates a grouping of users on a miscellaneous sentiment that ]
Delete for reasons mentioned. We really have no need for Wikipedians Who Follow A Specific Policy categories. This one also comes off as unnecessarily threatening/aggressive/defensive. - Koweja (talk) 04:32, 23 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:Wikipedians who use LinkedIn

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The result of the debate was speedy deleted by

CSD G7 (author-requested deletion). – Black Falcon (Talk) 19:42, 23 December 2007 (UTC)[reply
]

Category:Wikipedians who use LinkedIn (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Delete per
other precedents against categories for "Wikipedians by social networking website". The article LinkedIn identifies this as a business-oriented social networking service. – Black Falcon (Talk) 04:14, 23 December 2007 (UTC)[reply
]
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Category:Wikipedians with astigmatism

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The result of the debate was delete. No prejudice against creation of an interest category. After Midnight 0001 22:34, 28 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Wikipedians with astigmatism (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Delete per
does not foster encyclopedic collaboration; a simple userpage notice or the userbox that populates this category are enough to convey the information. – Black Falcon (Talk) 03:55, 23 December 2007 (UTC)[reply
]
  • Well, I have a certain eye disorder and it'd be really useful for me to talk about the experience with someone to check for accuracy in sources and articles. I have sort of done so, albeit on a talk page rather than through a user category. –Pomte 04:20, 24 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • I would support the independent creation of an "interest" category, but renaming is likely to create miscategorisation. Having a medical condition doesn't automatically imply an interest in the condition; for instance, I'm somewhat near-sighted, but I haven't any interest in the subject of myopia. – Black Falcon (Talk) 03:50, 28 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:Wikipedians who like Colossus: The Forbin Project

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The result of the debate was delete. After Midnight 0001 22:34, 28 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Wikipedians who like Colossus: The Forbin Project (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Too narrow for a category. Would only allow collaboration on a single article, which the article's talk page can be used for. If "Wikipedians who like" categories are kept for obscure movies like this, that would allow for many thousands of categories, one for every movie that has ever been released. VegaDark (talk)

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December 22

Category:Wikipedians who BOINC

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The result of the debate was delete. As noted, this is not a speedy, but it is still a delete (sorry for the process wonky, but we've been down this road before. After Midnight 0001 22:06, 28 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Wikipedians who BOINC (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Delete per
Wikipedia:User categories for discussion/Archive/December 2007#Category:Wikipedians who use BOINC.Black Falcon (Talk) 21:23, 22 December 2007 (UTC)[reply
]
  • I certainly wouldn't want to notify 65 people before I nominated something. That would definitely discourage nominations here if that requirement were made, unless a bot were set up to do it. Additionally, that would bring up a canvassing concern. Obviously members of a category are going to be more inclined to think a category should be kept, so notifying only them would introduce a huge bias to debates, rather than what the community as a whole thinks. VegaDark (talk) 00:58, 28 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • And not notifying them introduces a bias the other way. Remember, images, templates, userboxen, anything that gets transcluded, basically is going to show up in a way that lets you know it's at risk. But not categories. Categories are special in that there is nothing visible at the bottom of a page mixed in with the categories to tell you that some category is being considered. The first you know of it is if it shows up red or you see someone edited your page to remove it, and at that point, short of a DRV ("where were you when we were discussing it???" I can hear being asked already) there's nothing to be done. I think it might be time to consider discussing whether that policy of not notifying users is a good one for categories, especially user categories. Because, as you say... the users are biased... The users of a category might just have some small insight as to why the category is actually useful that the UCFD regulars wouldn't have... But naaaa... after all, what do 10 or 100 or 1000 users of a particular category know about usefulness of that category that 3 or 4 UCFD regulars don't? And we wouldn't want to do things that would "discourage" nominations here, would we? ++Lar: t/c 01:07, 28 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Your obvious sarcasm aside, there's nothing stopping anyone from adding a category to their watchlist. It's no different than anything else up for XfD. If it's on your watchlist, you should note that an XfD template has been added. And actually, given that categories typically aren't edited much, they have a better chance of being seen/noted. In addition, if these categories are so useful for collaboration/contribution, then those using them as such should instantly be aware of the discussion. But this is all a "meta"-discussion, outside the scope of this particular nomination. - jc37 01:18, 28 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • I have 3000+ watchlist entries. Having a cat on a watchlist doesn't quite have the same effect as a transcluded template on my homepage that suddenly has a tag on it saying it's up for deletion. Categories are different. But you're right, this is meta for this particular debate. ++Lar: t/c 05:51, 28 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • My mistake. It seems process wonky that this wasn't deleted along with the other one. Being part of a distributed computing project does not mean that one is able to edit articles about those projects. If I'm not mistaken, it's as trivial as running a program in the background. If we have consensus to notify all <65 members, I'll do it, and we can poll them about the usefulness of this category. –Pomte 02:48, 28 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:Users who have opted out of automatic signing

The following discussion is an archived debate regarding the category or categories above. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was rename to Category:Wikipedians who have opted out of automatic signing. I apologize for the delay in closing this discussion. I wanted to ensure that the bot owner was absolutely OK with this change and that nothing would be harmed. After Midnight 0001 21:35, 28 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Users who have opted out of automatic signing (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Needs to be renamed to Category:Wikipedians who have opted out of automatic signing per naming conventions. VegaDark (talk) 19:00, 15 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • Well, seeing as this required changes to its code in order to accommodate non-existent category errors from api.php in concert with an active category), I would suggest you wait until the 26th to actually do renaming, because I'm going to be out of reach until then (I'll be on a cruise for the next week). It should work now, and worst case people get mad at the bot signing even after they've opted out. So, if you don't wait until I get back, then I'm sending the angry mob in your direction. :P Also, whenever you rename it over, please be sure to edit User:SineBot to reflect the changes. By the way, was all this really necessary? --slakrtalk / 20:25, 16 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so that consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, After Midnight 0001 05:52, 22 December 2007 (UTC) - relisting for clarification and to wait until the bot owner returns[reply]
  • Keep as is. Since you have asked for other input, I say leave it as it is because the change really is not necessary. It would however cause quite unnecessary work for the owner of the bot. --Bduke (talk) 06:15, 22 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • No changes on UCFD are "necessary". I just think we should have a uniform naming convention for user categories. This is the only category to begin with "users". I don't think we should accept a mistake in the naming of a category just because it would take some work to reverse it. VegaDark (talk) 06:48, 22 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Rename per nom; as I understand it, the effort required to make the change will be fairly minimal (a minor tweak in the bot's code). – Black Falcon (Talk) 20:42, 22 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Rename for naming standardization. The work that the bot operator has to do to keep the bot running a)should be fairly trivial as they just have to change a category being checked, and b)is irrelevant since it is the operator's job to keep the bot working, not Wikipedia's job to work around bots. - Koweja (talk) 04:36, 23 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Delete Do we really need to know that you don't want SineBot to do something you're supposed to do in the first place? -- ALLSTARecho 10:02, 23 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • I believe that we don't need to standardise this, so we don't need to tweak anything. I can't see what is broken. The nominator asserts this needs to be renamed. I fail to understand the basis of this need. I believe the nominator and supporters would like this renamed. I would not. Hiding T 20:03, 23 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • We only need to rename this if we want to standardize naming conventions on Wikipedia, which I think is helpful for navigation. Need is a figure of speach, I'm not saying this needs to be done or Wikipedia will no longer work. If you want to argue what needs to be done or not, technically nothing needs to be done on UCFD at all. Wikipedia will still exist if nobody ever deletes or changes a user category. The same could go for articles or any other namespace. In fact, Wikipedia doesn't even need to exist. The world will not end if Wikipedia went down. In essence, every change we make on Wikipedia is something we want or would like to be done, not a need, so I really don't understand your argument at all. That same reasoning could be made to argue against any proposed change on Wikipedia. VegaDark (talk) 20:47, 23 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • You think it is helpful. I'd like to disagree. Is that okay? We can hypothesise all we want about different things happening, but does that really help anyone? I agree it is nice to read your lyrical outpouring, although I would have liked you to have posited further and unravelled a universe or two, but at the end of the day we're still having a pissing contest into the wind. :) I've stated my opinion, you've stated yours and at some point a consensus will emerge. I'm not one who often disputes a call when it comes, so I'll bow out and await the closer to read the debate and work out which preference is liked most. Hiding T 22:03, 23 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • As I understand it, Hiding's opposition stems from either a personal preference for the "Users..." convention or opposition in principle to what is essentially a housekeeping nomination. Absent a clear indication from Hiding himself, I've AGF'd that it is the former. – Black Falcon (Talk) 21:09, 23 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • See you make me feel a heel now. I can't see anything wrong with users is all, and I've taken against standardisation for standardisations sake. But this is why I walked away from deletion debates. I just don't get some of it. What Difference Does It Make? I was happy enough letting it be, but then... then I guess I wasn't. I guess I wanted to make my voice heard again so people couldn't make the claim that I'd consented through my silence. So think ill of me if you will, but give me the respect I've grudgingly earnt for speaking my mind. I don't mean to annoy or offend anyone, I just want the right to disagree, and for people to realise that standards don't have to matter. Hiding T 22:03, 23 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Speaking for myself, I can say that I'm neither annoyed nor offended, and I certainly don't think ill of you. I don't really understand why you oppose standardisation and/or consistency, especially since it seems you have no real preference for one or the other format, but maybe that's just my personality... – Black Falcon (Talk) 22:13, 23 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • No, it's mine. If it ain't broke... I can't see any leaking water. I had a whole host of people moaning at me a while back about how my next 1000 edits could be to article space or they could be... and here I am anyway. What are we ultimately discussing here? ten, maybe eleven letters in a category used by a small percentage of blah blah blah. You're right, I should leave this all alone. The problem is, if I do, when you delete something I wanted you tell me it's because I doidn't stop you deleting all those other things. I'm kind of damned if I do and damned if I don't. Hiding T 22:40, 23 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Rename per naming conventions. Snowolf How can I help? 23:26, 23 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Rename per nom - A fairly mundane change. Let's strive for consistency. The major opposition seems to be "Let's keep everything the way it is for no reason whatsoever just cause", which is silly on a wiki. TheBilly (talk) 19:43, 24 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    Comment I should note that it's not an issue of "Let's keep everything the way it is for no reason whatsoever just cause," but category renaming is actually quite a pain in the butt to do, as it requires the assistance of bots and/or scripts, plus a slew of edits in order to do so. Moreover, in this specific case it would potentially affect functionality of a relatively broad scope bot, and could aggravate a bunch of users if done incorrectly. If it was a simple rename of some trivial userbox category, it's not as much of a big deal, because it's an aesthetic change. However, in this particular case it's a functional change (i.e., if something goes wrong with the rename, there actually are spillover effects). --slakrtalk / 19:04, 25 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Rename or Merge-n-delete to {{NoAutosign}}. Rename for consistency, with compliments for notifying me first. And, if we're already here, it might be an idea to simply deprecate this category all together (i.e., delete it) and instead replace all instances of it with {{NoAutosign}} (identical in function), which future-proofs against naming convention changes as it can be easily redirected if renamed without the tidal wave of category renaming edits :P. Cheers =) --slakrtalk / 19:04, 25 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    Very Important Comment — I forgot to mention: if we take the {{NoAutosign}} route, be sure NOT to subst: the template, as it will break the backreference. Just leave it as "{{NoAutosign}}" (without the quotes and the nowikis). --slakrtalk / 19:11, 25 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I think it will be a good idea. --ジェイターナー 19:46, 27 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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Category:Wikipedians who are armed with all

The following discussion is an archived debate regarding the category or categories above. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was multi-merge. User:AMbot sentenced to perform the action. After Midnight 0001 21:47, 27 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Wikipedians who are armed with all (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

At best needs a rename, at worst needs a delete. A category for people who are "armed with all the vandal fighting tools". VegaDark (talk) 19:00, 15 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]


Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so that consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, After Midnight 0001 05:44, 22 December 2007 (UTC) - relisting to see if there is consensus for Horologium's merge suggestion before this is deleted. --After Midnight 0001 05:44, 22 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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December 21

PGP

The following discussion is an archived debate regarding the category or categories above. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was no consensus. It seems that due to technical questions we can't get agreement on a name. Perhaps this can be resolved on the category talk page and brought back here in time. After Midnight 0001 21:25, 27 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Merge Category:Wikipedian using a PGP Key and Category:Wikipedians who use PGP to ?

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so that consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, After Midnight 0001 12:08, 21 December 2007 (UTC) relisting to try for better consensus on a new name --After Midnight 0001 12:08, 21 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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December 20

Category:Wikipedians against notability

The following discussion is an archived debate regarding the category or categories above. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was keep. My decision here is on the strength of the arguments. While I find some of the keep arguments weak, especially the number of category members, since that is merely a function of transclusion (not an independent decision), Pomte makes the salient point that tips the scale. No prejudice against an attempt to renominate for purposes of a rename. After Midnight 0001 02:53, 26 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Wikipedians against notability - This is a tough one for me, since (personally), I'm not thrilled with how suggestions of "notability" (or lack thereof) have been used (abused) in discussions. However, Wikipedia is not a soapbox and Wikipedia is not a battleground; and really, a userpage notice should be enough. There's no need for a category grouping. - jc37 13:19, 20 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • WP:USER applies to userspace content, which this category is not. While it's fine to have the userbox or a userpage notice criticising the notability guidelines or their implementation, it's a different matter to create a grouping of users on that basis, since categories are navigational aids should not be used merely as bottom-of-the-page notices. – Black Falcon (Talk) 20:51, 22 December 2007 (UTC)[reply
    ]
  • Keep. Categories in the article space are navigational aids. Categories in the user space can have a different rationale, and often do. Consensus on Wikipedia as demonstrated through common practise seems to be that user categories, being those that categorise users, are somehow in user space or governed by user space guidance and policies. Categories by definition are divisive, since they define as being "of" or "not of". This category does not create divisiveness, it delineates it. There is a long tradition of Wikipedians categorising by philosophy. Hiding T 17:30, 23 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • A few points. First, categories are not in the article space or the user space; they are in the category namespace. A category is a category, irrespective of the type of page it contains. Second, you write that user categories "can have a different rationale, and often do" ... could you provide an example? Third, the "long tradition" to which you refer is reflected at Category:Wikipedians by Wikipedia editing philosophy, where this category clearly does not belong. Moreover, why do you note that tradition yet ignore the one for deleting support/oppose categories and "not" categories? More generally, can you suggest an actual use for this category? – Black Falcon (Talk) 19:59, 23 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Technically categories are not in the article space or the user space; they are in the category namespace. We agree on that. Where our disagreement lies is in the use made of categories by Wikipedians. A category is indeed a category, but what each category categorises is something different each time and different practises have emerged dependent on what is categorised. I wrote that user categories "can have a different rationale, and often do" and you have asked me to prove this. The very fact that they categorise users rather than articles surely demonstrates this. The rationale is that we are grouping Wikipedian users according to their wishes. For example, we categorise users through templates, something we guide against for articles. We allow users to categorise in and create Wikipedia-specific categories, something we try to avoid for articles, since they create self references. We allow philosophies to be outlined on category pages, we allow people to make points with categories that we do not allow in article space. We allow most of the guidance which applies to spaces other than Article space to apply to categories which categorise outside of article space. A category tends to follow the guidance that applies to the pages it is categorising. I hope that explains. Why do I support one thing and not the other? Am I not allowed to do that? Am I not allowed to reason, and to assert that in my opinion this is not like all the other support oppose categories, to state that this is Wikipedia specific and therefore meets our guidance on allowing us to categorise on Wikipedia specific lines? Hiding T 20:17, 23 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thank you for your response; it does clarify the situation somewhat. I do agree that article and user categories do not have entirely the same purpose and should not be judged in entirely the same manner. Article categories should group articles on the basis of a defining characteristic, whereas user categories should group users on the basis of a characteristic that can
    9). More generally, do you agree that user categories should be useful? (That is, that we should not categorise Wikipedia editors solely for the sake of creating a directory of users?) – Black Falcon (Talk) 20:29, 23 December 2007 (UTC)[reply
    ]
  • Regarding your examples, 1 I don't know what it was for, which when you think about it highlights a flaw in the UCFD, 2 should have been deleted since you shouldn't be editing Wikipedia if you disagree with a foundation issue, 3 and especially 4 have a really poor number of debaters and if the category was vastly populated, something we'll never know, should be reviewed, 5 and 6 I agree with close if not the outcome, 7 and 9 is where for me the rot starts to set in and the merits are not discussed, rather the precedents, 8 I'm unsure of, that's a small pool of debaters arguing poorly, but that's a foundation issue, so...
  • 1 is for opponents of
    speedy deletion criterion T2. Although the title is unclear, I cannot see how a poorly chosen category title in any way reflects on the UCFD process. Why does the number of debaters matter in 3 or 4? Consensus != numbers; even so, plenty of people had the opportunity to comment in that discussion, and simply chose not to. As for 7 through 9, I'm not sure how you can say that the merits weren't discussed: in each case, the first two paragraphs of the nomination addressed only the merits and said nothing about precedents. In any case, can we agree that the content of the discussion reveals a consistent sentiment against even Wikipedia-related support/oppose categories. – Black Falcon (Talk) 21:58, 23 December 2007 (UTC)[reply
    ]
  • If the debate doesn't tell me what's wrong with category, there's a flaw there somewhere. Oh, and regards consensus, yes, numbers do matter and
    WP:CONSENSUS makes that very point. A small pool of users in one corner of Wikipedia do not get to overturn another consensus with a larger pool of users made elsewhere. We can argue all day about whether a tree falling in a forest makes a noise or not if everyone's deaf, but let's not ignore the fact that it fell over. If there were 100 people in a category, why should two people decide it should be deleted? Is that really how Wikipedia works? Not in my book. Since I already picked holes in half the debates, no, I'm not going to agree, especially not when we have all the inclusionist and deletionist and so on and so forth categories, which are just as much support oppose categories as anything else. All you can prove to me is that those debates were closed as they were closed, and that we have a policy which states that Wikipedia can change and we do not have a policy which states a closer can close a debate because some others were closed that way too, and we certainly don't have a policy which states I have to agree with all of them decisions. Do you agree that I did not comment in any of those debates? Looking at a couple of them, had I opposed do you agree the result would have differed? That I did not comment then has no bearing on the fact that I choose to comment now, and I disagree with what went on before. I do not have the yearning within me to reach further back to when these were listed at CFD and find the precedents which would support my view because I do not believe Wikipedia works like that. Consensus is allowed to change. Make your argument, but please do not base it on what has gone before and ask me to accept that. Hiding T 22:16, 23 December 2007 (UTC)[reply
    ]
  • Oh, I see, because it was a support/oppose category it is bad, regardless of what it supports or opposes. My bad. I don't disregard arguments. I have never stated I disregard arguments. But per guidance I don't disregard feelings and actions either. How I would have commented is neither here nor there now, is it, so colouring my opinion from this distance as being not of worth to impact the debate seems off as well as prejudicial. I'm glad you think it is okay for two people to delete a category a hundred people belong to, and I'm glad you judge everyone by your own standards. I guess I'm just different. I could never delete a category I had doubt should be deleted, per guidance. Hiding T 22:49, 23 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Well, no, it's not prejudicial. It's fact. If you had simply typed a bolded oppose without providing a reason, your comment would have been given less weight by a closing administrator than if you had provided a reason. That's all I meant to say, and I apologise if any misunderstanding caused you offense. As for your latter comment, apparently we're not different, since I have no doubt that this category should be deleted per
    WP:NOT. I do not support deletion of categories when I am uncertain (a quick look at this page or its archives should prove that) ... I'm just not uncertain in this case. – Black Falcon (Talk) 22:59, 23 December 2007 (UTC)[reply
    ]
  • I guess we disagree that in user space categories still have to be navigational aids. I think they can be used as a way of grouping similar users, and that it is for community practise and discussion to decide the limits to such groupings. Certainly they need to be Wikipedia specific. As to whether we agree about whether user categories should be useful, I think that's again tricky. We'd first have to agree on a definition of useful. I think it is fair to assert we interpret the guidance differently. Do we agree that list builders shouldn't tear down Wikipedia's category system? Hiding T 21:26, 23 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • OK, so we can both agree that user categories should be useful, even if we do not necessarily agree on the definition of "useful". Is that a fair characterisation? If it is, then what is your definition of "useful"? Mine revolves primarily around the potential of a category to be used in a manner that
    fosters encyclopedic collaboration. As for your question, I'm not sure how that's an issue. For one thing, I don't think anyone (least of all me) intends to delete all or even most user categories. More generally, I do not believe that user categorisation should be an end in and of itself; it should be a means to an end (encyclopedic collaboration). – Black Falcon (Talk) 21:58, 23 December 2007 (UTC)[reply
    ]
  • "Whatever the community finds to be of use" doesn't really inform CFD discussions... It doesn't set a standard of any kind (the standard I suggested relies on
    WP:NOT, so it's not as if it lacks consensus) and essentially turns CFD into a pure vote. So, putting aside general questions of process and definitions, why do you think that this particular category is useful? – Black Falcon (Talk) 22:32, 23 December 2007 (UTC)[reply
    ]
  • Yes, the community decides community consensus, but my question is more about how it decides. What standards does it use? (That's a rhetorical question, by the way ... this thread of discussion has gone waaay off-topic.) It's circular and uninformative to say that there is consensus to keep the category because there is community consensus for keeping it. What matters is why there is community consensus. Black Falcon (Talk) 22:59, 23 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • The community decides how the community decides. Sometimes it decides ten weeks in advance. Sometimes it decides in writing. Sometimes it decides halfway through a debate on something else and sometimes it decides on a wet weekend. Sometimes it decides when you weren't looking and sometimes it decides after someone takes the ball away. It doesn't matter why there is a consensus. We can have a consensus for the worst possible reason, WP:BLP for example. It matters that we test the consensus and be willing to accept it wasn't where we left it. Hiding T 23:31, 23 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. Unlike the ad and censor categories below, this one actually has the potential to matter. How this fosters collaboration is that N is directly attached to how we create and edit articles to begin with. Contrasted with the censor category, this isn't supporting a policy, but opposing a guideline. Obviously a category supporting N would recruit thousands more people, but this category isn't inherently divisive to spawn such a rival cat. If I ever wanted to canvass people, not for numbers, but for insight into reasons why our current conception of N may be flawed, it would be immensely useful. Special:Whatlinkshere may not be as useful since people could categorize themselves without adding the userbox (unless you want to slap the userbox on them for some reason). It's certainly possible though, that some of these Wikipedians have a flawed or outdated conception of N. –Pomte 05:01, 24 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Rename - I'm not entirely persuaded that there is a legitimate encyclopedic purpose to seek out users in this category, but I'm not yet entirely sure that there isn't either. I think the category could benefit from a rename, however. Perhaps Category:Wikipedians interested in reforming the Wikipedia notability guideline? VegaDark (talk) 20:22, 24 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep I see 152 (currently) reasons to keep this category, the 152 (current) members. Until you get a substantial fraction of them involved here, agreeing with the arguments to delete, I'm not seeing consensus as being generated by the half dozen regulars here even if they were unanimously in favour of deletion. (which they are, in this case, not) I think membership in a category is prima facie an argument that the member supports the existance of the category, and absent canvassing all of them (which I am not advocating), it's specious to argue that "they could have come here and argued for retention". I don't make it a habit to check to see if every category I'm interested in is flagged for deletion, nor should I have to... I notice it, a fair bit of the time, after the fact, and I guess I'll be taking a lot more deleted categories to deletion review if the current trend of the same 1/2 dozen noms/commentors/closers continues. An unfair perception follows, and it's a perception, not reality: I get a strong vibe of "If he supports my nom, then you can close it delete... and then I'll close his nom delete, quoting YOUR support, and then he can close yours delete, quoting MY support". All without any actual collusion, just a confluence of interests and sympathies. Unfair? You bet? Untrue? Probably. But it sure smacks of insularity, so you regulars need to work on widening your circle of participants a lot, I suspect. ++Lar: t/c 20:04, 25 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Wikimedia and advertising

The following discussion is an archived debate regarding the category or categories above. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was delete all. The strength of argument provided by Timeshifter is most persuasive in this debate which has a near equal number of participants on both sides. Also, comments about using these categories as measures of opinion (Sarek, Hiding) are highly dissuaded by the statistical invalidity of such assertions as argued by Black Falcon. The arguments that there are other advocacy categories are simply OTHERSTUFFEXISTS and are both weak and incorrect. After Midnight 0001 02:17, 26 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Wikipedians against advertisements
Category:Wikipedians for optional advertisements
Category:Wikipedians who think that the Wikimedia Foundation should use advertising
See also Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:WikiProject Yes ads, and the essay Wikipedia:Advertisements
There are several issues with these categories. There's (of course) Wikipedia is not a soapbox and Wikipedia is not a battleground. But there's also the issue that these only concern Wikipedia in that they concern Wikimedia. One "could" argue for these categories there. But they shouldn't be "here". - jc37 12:32, 20 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia is not a soapbox and Wikipedia is not a battleground do not apply since the info and discussion is ontopic discussion of Wikipedia-related topics. I agree though that this discussion shouldn't be done via categories. See my "move" comment farther down. --Timeshifter (talk) 15:28, 20 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Those don't like categories discussing wikipedia-related issues. So I don't think they set precedents.
  • 'Move away from categories. Keep on wikipedia. (Clarification: I meant to delete the categories, but to keep the old discussion here:
    Wikipedia talk:Advertisements/Archive 1.) I don't believe these should be categories anymore. Otherwise it looks like a vote. One can't have a vote without wide discussion of all 3 options. The choice for optional ads was not really ever discussed when most people joined the category against ads long ago. The category for optional ads did not exist back then. Most people joined the category against ads when the issue was hot due to impending ads at the time. Keep the pages and discussion on wikipedia since the many users who commented previously can then continue to discuss the issues, and can use their wikipedia user names. This discussion and debate is very important. A lot fewer people are likely to discuss things at Wikimedia since fewer people are registered there (and with different user names in many cases). It can be discussed in both Wikipedia and Wikimedia. --Timeshifter (talk) 15:42, 20 December 2007 (UTC)[reply
    ]
I copied the text from the 3 category talk pages and archived it here:
Wikipedia talk:Advertisements. --Timeshifter (talk) 20:54, 23 December 2007 (UTC)[reply
]
  • Delete per nom and
    dozens of precedents or listify. These types of virtual petitions simply formalise factionalisation without doing anything to engender discussion about the issue. That the categories are Wikipedia-related says nothing about their actual value. – Black Falcon (Talk) 20:57, 22 December 2007 (UTC)[reply
    ]
  • DGG only said that they're Wikipedia-related, which says nothing about the value of the categories (we clearly do not keep every page that is Wikipedia-related). Blake stated that "there are all types of advocacy user cats", which is incorrect. Black Falcon (Talk) 03:19, 23 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - I'm not opposed to Timeshifter's suggestions. I'll ask if he can implement them so that we can see how they would look. (That can be done without affecting the category during the discussion.) - jc37 09:57, 23 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Please see
Wikipedia talk:Advertisements/Archive 1. --Timeshifter (talk) 20:56, 23 December 2007 (UTC)[reply
]
  • A user category haphazardly populated by userbox transclusions and self-categorisation is quite possibly the worst gauge of consensus. Even if we ignore for a moment the fact that
    other categories (in general) exist is relevant here. Other categories of this type do not exist and have consistently been deleted. – Black Falcon (Talk) 20:05, 23 December 2007 (UTC)[reply
    ]
  • Again, my hypothesis applied to this category, not to any hypothetical one. So, just to be clear, you consider these categories to be useful as "gauges of consensus". Is that correct? If so, then would you please respond to my comment directed at that claim: A user category populated by userbox transclusions and self-categorisation is quite possibly the worst gauge of consensus. Even if we ignore for a moment the fact that
    consensus is not a headcount, these categories are not reliable even as headcounts, since a single edit to a userbox that may go unnoticed for months could virtually empty any one of these three. Thanks, Black Falcon (Talk) 22:38, 23 December 2007 (UTC)[reply
    ]
  • Keep all as is. per Hiding. I do not buy the argument that these categories are divisive, they show a view about a wikipedia specific thing. I do not buy the argument that they belong on some other wiki than here, most of us do not have accounts elsewhere. I do not buy the argument that they should be lists, userboxes, or templates. A category is the natural organizational scheme here. If one advances the argument that they should be "Category:Wikimedians against advertisements" (median instead of pedian) that's fine. The rest of these arguments seem fatally flawed. ++Lar: t/c 18:44, 23 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • They are as useful, individually, as
    WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS :)... the point is that these categories all denote an opinion about the project itself) Taken in aggregate, the three categories provide an instant view of the relative level of the various opinions of those people who care enough to make their opinion known on the matter, one that can change over time as opinions shift, without the bother of taking periodic surveys or straw polls. But the onus is on the nominator to show why they are not useful. Which the nominator has not done, in my view. These categories are harmless and that is reason enough, in my view. ++Lar: t/c 22:53, 23 December 2007 (UTC)[reply
    ]
  • Comment. I support deleting the categories because there is no need for the categories to exist in order to have a real discussion. The old separate discussions are now archived together at
    Wikipedia talk:Advertisements is for ongoing discussion. --Timeshifter (talk) 21:35, 23 December 2007 (UTC)[reply
    ]
Please see my reply to Lar higher up. --Timeshifter (talk) 23:47, 23 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I remeber them being created. My memory differs somewhat to yours, but I think I stayed out of that debate beyond registering an oppose. I still don't see them as hindering any debate. Is this recent, i.e. can you show diffs? Hiding T 23:56, 23 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I may not have the early history correct for the category and wikiproject against ads. The category was created in October 2005. I believe the wikiproject was around before the category.
See Wikipedia:WikiProject No ads (edit | [[Talk:Wikipedia:WikiProject No ads|talk]] | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views). I can't pull up a revision history for the WikiProject. See the MFD that deleted it: Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:WikiProject Yes ads. See also the previous MFD that kept it: Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:WikiProject No ads. That first MFD was started in January 2006.
The category for ads was created in October 2006. I created the category for optional ads in January 2007.--Timeshifter (talk) 00:21, 24 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Wikipedians against censorship

The following discussion is an archived debate regarding the category or categories above. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was selectively rename and delete. On the surface, this is a simple matter of Wikiproject member category naming convention. This is complicated however by the fact that some members of the category are not members of the Wikiproject. Consensus of this discussion is that this category should not exist except for the Wikiproject. Therefore, the Wikiproject userbox will be redirected to the renamed category and the category will then be emptied of other members. As noted, any user is permitted to join the Wikiproject at any time. After Midnight 0001 22:02, 25 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Rename Category:Wikipedians against censorship to Category:WikiProject Wikipedians against censorship members - This is clearly for members of the WikiProject. Noting that the WikiProject uses "members". (Though I'm concerned about the potential gammatical confusion in the new name.) - jc37 12:18, 20 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • You just motivated me to pseudo-create a new category. Check out my user page to see if you can guess which one it is… (Note: this is all meant in good fun, and since I'm only "pseudo-creating" it, I don't think it will be a problem. If it is a problem, just let me know and I'll remove it.) Ben Hocking (talk|contribs) 14:10, 20 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep as is because of the awkwardness of the proposed name. DGG (talk) 01:59, 21 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep; the WikiProject seems valid so they can rightly have a category. Rename, preferably to something less awkward than the proposed name. It should clearly indicate that the user is a member of the WikiProject. If you recall
    our old discussion on WikiProject member category naming convention, this is a good example of a category that shouldn't fit the format. –Pomte 07:32, 21 December 2007 (UTC)[reply
    ]
  • Sure we do : ) - I do various WikiGnomish tasks for WikiProject Comics. Also, typically a WikiProject has a list or a category of all their associated articles, so in that sense also, they do contribute to the WikiProject. - jc37 09:57, 23 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Although this is a single category, it currently reflects three distinct affiliations: membership in
    ample precedent
    in favour of deleting any support/oppose categories, even when they apply to Wikipedia, only the first categorisation should be preserved. Given the complex way that this category is populated, I propose the following course of action:
  • Endorse Black Falcon's proposal. The name isn't ideal, but it's going to be awkward anyway due to "Wikipedians" being in the WikiProject name. One of those userboxes has me cracking up. –Pomte 21:21, 22 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse BF's proposal, though I'm straddling the fence on which target name is better : ) - (I prefer the new suggestion, but I'm not sure if we're not better off just doing that with a group nomination.) - jc37 09:57, 23 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep, all the solutions here are in search of a problem which does not exist. The category is of use, helps gauge consensus, follows in the tradition of other categories and is used by such a large number of Wikipedians I don't understand how anyone can expect any conse4nsus in this debate could trump the consensus demonstrated by all the people using it that this category should exist as is. Not one person categorising themselves saw an issue with this category. Through their actions is consensus defined, not in this debate with its limited participants. Hiding T 17:37, 23 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The category is of use" – not in its current form. It currently groups together members of a WikiProject, editors who oppose censorship in general, editors who oppose online censorship, editors who oppose censorship on Wikipedia, and editors who support free speech as long as it's "sensible". Due to this, the category is unable to tell us aything about the characteristics of the members.
  • The only things you've said in this regard are "the category is of use" (an assertion without an explanation) and "helps gauge consensus". Is that it: "helps gauge consensus"? If so, please see my comment below Lar's posting and my comment in the advertising discussion above. Thanks, Black Falcon (Talk) 22:51, 23 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • "helps gauge consensus" – a category haphazardly populated by userbox transclusions and self-categorisation is quite possibly the worst gauge of consensus. Even if we ignore for a moment the fact that
    consensus
    is not a headcount, the category is not reliable even as a headcount, since a single edit to a userbox that may go unnoticed for months could substantially empty it.
  • Please see my rebuttal to this point elsewhere on the page. Basically, discuss the merits here, not the hypothetical. To discuss the hypothetical, let's hypothetically protect the template. Let's agree that consensus is not a headcount, but rather an attempt to discern what the community as a whole feels about somethin, and that when a 1000 or more Wikipedians have acted in a certain manner their actions can speak louder than words and be used to discern consensus. Community practise is one method of determining consensus. Know them by their deeds. Hiding T 20:37, 23 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • If you wanted us to discuss the merits only, then why did you bring up the issue of "gauges consensus" as a supposed advantage of the category? And I am discussing specifically this category, and not any hypotheticals. As for hypothetical protection of the template, our protection guidelines would not allow that. Finally, what is your basis for claiming that the presence of editors in a category indicates consensus for category's existence? Does the presence of articles in a category indicate that there is a consensus among the editors of all of those articles about whether the category should exist or how it should be named? Of course not. If actions indeed speak louder than words, then all we have is 1000 people chose to use one of several userboxes; it says absolutely nothing about the category. – Black Falcon (Talk) 21:04, 23 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Can we skip the discussion about interpreting our protection policy and
    WP:CONSENSUS and community practise. What's yours? Your article point makes no sense to me. If one editor adds the same category to every article on Wikipedia, would every editor on Wikipedia be bound by it? I think we're getting far from the beaten track here. Can we not go back to the old days were people shook hands and said I don't agree with you, but I sure like the cut of your jib? If actions didn't speak louder than words we'd have a harder time of building this encyclopedia what with all the time we're conceding to this debate. Hiding T 22:32, 23 December 2007 (UTC)[reply
    ]
  • I have no idea to what you are responding here. If you think it is possible that one editor could add the same category to every article and then every editor be bound by that action, then I vehemently disagree. Since I doubt that is your intent, I would hope you would concede that an example that works in article space is not always appropriate for user space and that when we;re discussing apples it's best to keep oranges in the fruit bowl. Hiding T 23:50, 23 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • "follows in the tradition of other categories" – All for/against and support/oppose categories have been deleted, with the exception of the ones currently nominated. If anything "tradition" is unambiguously in favour of deletion.
  • All so nominated. Please be aware that consensus can change. I'll have a look at the debates another day and see what can be discerned from them, but let's keep in mind OTHERSTUFF. Either it cuts both ways or it doesn't cut at all. Hiding T 20:37, 23 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Interesting spin. Forgive me if I turn the ball over and spin it the other way. There is a difference between OTHERSTUFF that came about as a result of a series of discussions and OTHERSTUFF that exists because everyone who looks at it agrees it should exist and doesn't therefore see the value in nominating it for a deletion they would not support. Hope that clarifies another viewpoint. Hiding T 22:34, 23 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Heh. Now that I like! :-) I still don't agree with you (after all, it is clear from this discussion that "everyone who looks at it" doesn't agree that it should exist), but let's agree to disagree (as above). Black Falcon (Talk) 22:51, 23 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • "the consensus demonstrated by all the people using it" – Most of the people in the category are there because they transclude a particular userbox, not because they made any conscious choice to place themselves in the category. – Black Falcon (Talk) 20:14, 23 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • I don't think I did. I think you did. You assumed everyone in the category didn't want to be there and found it of no use. I was allowing the possibility that actually, they did. Hiding T 22:58, 23 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Not at all. I didn't make any claims whatsoever regarding the opinions of those in the category, except to point out that we can't automatically assume that they support the category's existence just because they're in it. While some probably do, others probably don't. I was most content to leave out any such speculation from my comments. Black Falcon (Talk) 23:23, 23 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Most of the people in the category are there because they transclude a particular userbox Either that's the speculation you were trying to avoid or a grounded fact. Me, I'd rather sit in the middle ground and accede all possibilities. In the absence of any evidence to the contrary, I'm going to assume good faith that people within that category could be listed there because they want to be. Hiding T 23:47, 23 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep per Hiding. Trying to delete this category strikes me as a bad idea. Trying to move it to a project specific category is misguided. I strongly agree that "Wikipedia is not censored" and that this is a good thing but I have absolutely no interest in being a project member. ++Lar: t/c 18:46, 23 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Please see my response to Hiding. As for "trying to move it to a project specific category", please note that the entire category would not be relocated (at least per my proposal). Only the userboxes that reflect an affiliation with the project would be transferred. Black Falcon (Talk) 20:16, 23 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • I'm responding to the original proposal, which is to rename the category. The proposal says nothing about userboxes and I have no opinion about moving userboxes around as long as the category itself stays in place. I joined the category (now that I am aware of it) without use of a userbox so any userbox movement won't affect me. ++Lar: t/c 22:59, 23 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: Even if we put aside issues of utility, does a "Wikipedians against censorship" category make any sense in the first place? After all, is there anyone who will actually admit to being pro-censorship? Black Falcon (Talk) 21:23, 23 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • The spoiler brigade, one side of the paedophile clash, there was that Timmy thing a while back, people who don't like the nude images, the people who get worried about kids reading Wikipedia, the people who self censor so as to avoid swearing, um, there's more but will that do? Hiding T 22:36, 23 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Well, yes, but would any of them admit to supporting censorship? Whatever they do is done for the sake of readers, for the sake of children, out of "common decency", or to protect Wikipedia against invasion by nihilists, communists, nationalists, terrorists, heretics, infidels, liberals, Satanists, cabalists, pornographers, social democrats, Tories, anarchists, and people who insist that Miller Lite "tastes great" more than it is "less filling". Black Falcon (Talk) 22:51, 23 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • I support censorship where it is appropriate. There are such places. I support editorial control where it is appropriate. There are such places as well. But I also support the notion that Wikipedia is not censored as a good foundational principle for the project. ++Lar: t/c 22:59, 23 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Quite a few of the Timmy people openly supported censorship, as did quite a few of the paedophile people. I can't recall specific examples of people stating yes, I do mean censorship in the other debates, so I won't assert they did, but they carried on arguing in the face of being told that Wikipedia is not censored, so... Hiding T 23:04, 23 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Well, simply arguing in the face of being told that
    WP:NOT#CENSORED does not necessarily make one explicitly pro-censorship (again, there are some many euphemisms...). By the way, what is this Timmy incident? It's the first time I've heard of it and it's caught my interest. I'd appreciate if you could provide a link (or an approximate date of when it happened) so that I could try to read about it. Black Falcon (Talk) 23:23, 23 December 2007 (UTC)[reply
    ]
  • After trying to absorb everything above, has this been said: Aside from promoting the WikiProject, all the category does is link to the censor policy as if to support it. 1000 people support the policy, great. The fact that it is policy implies that there is overwhelming consensus for it. If you can't find 1000 people over 2 years to confirm support for some policy, that policy is in deep trouble. The next time we have a debate about WP:CENSOR, is it valid to refer to this category for consensus? If you presented this number to the Timmy or paedophile people, would it convince them? I don't know them to predict the answer, but it may be no considering that Hiding says that did not balk as its status as policy, and the category's "against" tone being divisive. Is this fundamentally different from, for instance, Category:Wikipedians against original research, even though it seems no one can reasonably argue against NOR? –Pomte 04:40, 24 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:Wikipedians who listen to The Dan Patrick Show

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The result of the debate was delete - Single member in category, no reason to keep, collaboration can occur on talk page of article. ++Lar: t/c 19:34, 25 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Wikipedians who listen to The Dan Patrick Show (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Nominator's rationale: The Dan Patrick Show went off the air on 17 August 2007. JB82c 02:28, 20 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Note: this was moved from

]

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December 19

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The result of the debate was speedy rename all. After Midnight 0001 04:30, 23 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Wikipedians who listen to J-Rock

Category:Wikipedians who listen to J-Rock to Category:Wikipedians who listen to J-rock
Speedy rename, see rationale for #Category:Wikipedians who listen to J-Pop.Black Falcon (Talk) 19:24, 19 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Wikipedians who listen to J-Pop

Category:Wikipedians who listen to J-Pop to Category:Wikipedians who listen to J-pop
Speedy rename to match J-pop and Category:J-pop.Black Falcon (Talk) 19:22, 19 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Wikipedians who listen to Electric folk

Category:Wikipedians who listen to Electric folk to Category:Wikipedians who listen to electric folk
Speedy rename to fix capitalisation.Black Falcon (Talk) 19:07, 19 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Wikipedians who listen to Thrash metal

Category:Wikipedians who listen to Thrash metal to Category:Wikipedians who listen to thrash metal
Speedy rename to fix capitalisation.Black Falcon (Talk) 19:04, 19 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:Shoegazing Wikipedians

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The result of the debate was rename. After Midnight 0001 22:36, 24 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Propose renaming Category:Shoegazing Wikipedians to Category:Wikipedians who listen to shoegazing
Nominator's rationale: Per the convention of Category:Wikipedians by music genre. – Black Falcon (Talk) 19:14, 19 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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December 18

Category:Wikipedians by alma mater: Christian Brothers College High School

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The result of the debate was delete. After Midnight 0001 02:41, 24 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Wikipedians by alma mater: Christian Brothers College High School (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Delete per
Wikipedia:User categories for discussion/Archive/August 2007#Category:Wikipedians by high school and subcats.Black Falcon (Talk) 22:42, 18 December 2007 (UTC)[reply
]
(Also see:
28
)
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Category:Public domain licensing

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The result of the debate was rename. After Midnight 0001 02:44, 24 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Public domain licensing

I propose renaming this category to Category:Public domain licensing Wikipedians in order to match everything else in Category:Wikipedians by Wikipedia contribution licensing. This will serve as a parent category to current and future public domain licensing categories (such as one for images, if we don't already have one). --- RockMFR 02:26, 18 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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December 17

Category:User ja-ksb

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The result of the debate was Modify as nominated. After Midnight 0001 03:39, 23 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Category:User ja-ksb (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
This is a category for speakers of the Kansai dialect, a regional dialect of Japanese. This is not a distinct ISO-recognised language, and so need not exist separately.
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Category:Wikipedians interested in the subject of Chinese reunification

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The result of the debate was delete. After Midnight 0001 03:33, 23 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Wikipedians interested in the subject of Chinese reunification (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Nominator's rationale: This category is populated by a userbox that expresses support for the idea of Chinese reunification. Thus, it is not an interest category, but a political ideology category. Whether deliberately or not, it bypasses the consensus reached at
prevailing consensus against categorisation of users by political ideology (and, obviously, against miscategorisation of any kind, as it the case here). No prejudice to creating Category:Wikipedians interested in Chinese reunification without use of the userbox. For additional context, see the template history. – Black Falcon (Talk) 22:39, 17 December 2007 (UTC)[reply
]
  • Actually, the category members currently are only those who use the template (see whatlinkshere). Also, this particular series of edits is the reason for my belief that the category was created solely to supplement the userbox. More generally, I don't think we should populate "interest" categories with political support/oppose categories. Supporting or opposing something doesn't imply an encyclopedically-relevant interest in the subject. I have fairly strong political views on racism, abortion, fiscal policy, nuclear proliferation, and many other issues, yet I've never made anything more than minor edits to articles about any of these topics, and have no interest whatsoever in collaborating about them. – Black Falcon (Talk) 05:37, 18 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I have no doubt that is the sole reason for the creation of this category, but there may still be valid unrelated reasons for keeping this category, namely collaboration I guess, which I shall leave for any actual collaborators to defend.
You have "no prejudice to creating Category:Wikipedians interested in Chinese reunification without use of the userbox." For clarity, does this mean users can skirt around the issue by simply adding the category to their userpage, which may or may not already contain the userbox? I definitely agree to avoiding political support/oppose categories, but any "interest in" category is bound to contain people who in reality support/oppose the subject anyway, and it's going to be clear what the intersection is as long as the userbox remains.
What you say about support/oppose vs. interest assumes that "interest in" categories automatically imply interest in encyclopedic interest, which I have never found intuitive. –Pomte 06:21, 18 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • If a user manually adds the category to his/her userpage simply to skirt around the issue, there's really nothing that we can do. However, I think that most people wouldn't do that. Also, while any interest category "is bound to contain people who in reality support/oppose the subject anyway", I think deletion without prejudice to proper recreation is warranted in cases where all category members are there because of a support/oppose userbox. In essence, this is a case of a valid interest category populated invalidly by a political userbox; if the category function was removed from the userbox, this category would become empty and subject to deletion. – Black Falcon (Talk) 06:46, 18 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose a little tinkering with the userbox is all that's needed.--Bedford (talk) 04:49, 20 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • "If they support it, they are most likely interested in it..." Most people support lots of political goals, but I don't think we can infer that they have an encyclopedically-relevant interest in the subject. A lot of people vote for (i.e. support) a particular political party, but surely most of them do not edit articles about the political parties they support. I support or oppose, among other things: secularism, the election of Jacob Zuma to the leadership of the ANC, human trafficking, research into alternative energy sources, etc. Yet, I've never edited articles relevant to these topics and have no interest in doing so. – Black Falcon (Talk) 21:11, 22 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:Christian Anarchist Wikipedians

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The result of the debate was delete. After Midnight 0001 03:31, 23 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Christian Anarchist Wikipedians (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Delete per ]
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Category:Wikipedians by alma mater: Williamsville East High School

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The result of the debate was delete. After Midnight 0001 03:31, 23 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Wikipedians by alma mater: Williamsville East High School (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Delete per
Wikipedia:User categories for discussion/Archive/August 2007#Category:Wikipedians by high school and subcats.Black Falcon (Talk) 21:56, 17 December 2007 (UTC)[reply
]
(Also see:
28
)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.