Talk:Kosovo/Archive 22

The map showing Kosovo as part of Serbia in any form is POV. And I don’t know why is there such intransigence in regarding any other map different from the map 1 as “unacceptable”.--BalkanWalker (talk) 01:19, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

If it hasn't been proposed already, perhaps something similar to the Western Sahara (Morocco, Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic - Even though we don't have a article split for Kosovo as a region/territory and the Republic of Kosovo) situation can be implemented. With some stripes and notes on "controlled de facto/jure" on both articles — chandler — 01:46, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

The problem, chandler, is that in order for the map to be NPOV, the point of view that Kosovo is a part of Serbia must be presented on the map. The crucial difference between Kosovo and the Western Sahara is that around 75% of the world (and the UN) are of the stance that Kosovo remains a part of Serbia (under UN administration), while most of the world does not recognize Morocco's control of Western Sahara (which would warrant representation on a map). Serbia must be marked on the map in order to preserve the NPOV, whether there are stripes or it is colored in grey is immaterial, but it must be marked in recognition of the fact that 150 of the world's governments hold it to be within Serbia. --

TALK

) 09:07, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

The thing is, how I see it, the locator map in the first infobox isnt suppose to be political, it is just suppose to show where the region called Kosovo is in Europe, no matter who controls it. And in refering to Western Sahara I meant that, because SADR is recognized by a similar number as Kosovo, the map at "Western Sahara" just shows the area called Western Sahara, it's not political. That's for the Serbia article and the ROKosovo infobox — chandler — 09:35, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

the fact that 150 of the world's governments hold it to be within Serbia.

It doesn't matter, the image is suppose to show where the geographical arean called Kosovo is, not the borders of Serbia, not the borders of the Republic of Kosovo. See images like File:Basque Country location map.png and File:Corrected Sapmi in Europe.PNG. — chandler — 10:11, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

The problem is that even this assumption is POV, because most of the UN countries simply did not manifested in relation to their current or future position regarding Kosovo -- even the UN General Assembly never adopted any resolution about the 2008 Kosovar independence until now. And we see trough the international media that the only two countries that nowadays say that they never recognized, recognize and will recognize an independent Kosovar state are Serbia and Russia — the other UN countries that did not recognized Kosovo as of today are more or less muted or ambiguous in relation to the Kosovo question.--BalkanWalker (talk) 10:07, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

BalkanWalker, we're not here to discuss the validity of Serbia's right to consider Kosovo a part of its territory. The fact you will simply have to face is that the view that "Kosovo remains a part of Serbia" is equally supported by Wikipedia. That's all I'm going to say on that. It is a fully accepted point of view that should (and is) represented in any NPOV version of the article. This is not the issue here, and (re)starting that vain argument will solve nothing.

Chandler, I completely understand what you're trying to say, however, the main problem here is that the map that shows only Kosovo and makes no mention of Serbia is completely supportive of the point of view view that Kosovo is an independent state. On the other hand, the point of view that Kosovo is not an independent state is not represented at all by such a map. In other words, such a map represents only one POV, hence it is not

TALK

) 10:40, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

The article it self, starts pretty fast be describing the facts of it being disputed by Serbia etc. and therefore I don't think it would be a anti serbia pov to just show the region of Kosovo on a map. Because you really can't have a map that shows a neutral view (if neutral is suppose to show both the pro-Independences and the anti-Independence view, and any anti-Independence map has to show Kosovo inside Serbia), because I don't see a way to show Kosovo as both independent and not. That's why I think it would be best that the first infobox has a map that just shows the region of Kosovo, like Western Sahara which also is disputed between two governments. — chandler — 10:51, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

I agree with Chandler. People want to see clearly where Kosovo is located on the map, the current one is not only POV but also confuses the reader. Emto (talk) 12:06, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

So if the article is NPOV the map should be allowed to represent only one POV? Maybe we can't have a 100% NPOV map, but we can certainly do our best. Total neutrality is an unachievable goal in most cases anyway, that doesn't mean we shouldn't strive towards it. Showing a map that shows only Kosovo would be the same map of a hypothetical "Republic of Kosovo" article, i.e. it would be the map used if the Albanian POV was the only one. Therefore, if it excludes the Serbian POV, it most certainly is "anti Serbia". --

TALK

) 12:08, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

The only reason it would be the same map is because the republic of kosovo's territorial claim are the whole region called Kosovo. That doesn't make it Albanian POV in my eyes, for me that's NPOV, because that choice would be to only go with the region called Kosovo, not caring which countries claim which territory. — chandler — 12:31, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

And the only reason (pro-)Albanian users are supporting such a map is because it would be the same as the map of the Republic of Kosovo. "Reasons" are irrelevant in this debate. If the map is identical to the map that supports exclusively Albanian POV, what difference does it make? As I said, I can see your logic, but I'm afraid I am of the opinion the controversial nature of this issue cannot allow for even a semblance of favoritism one way or the other.

This map would be full Serbian POV, a map showing only Kosovo is full Albanian POV. The map with Serbia lightly marked in grey is clearly the best we can do and the closest we can come to an NPOV map. --

TALK

) 11:03, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

No, it is not the "best we can do." We already solved that problem: look at

Republic of China, Basque Country, etc. They are all shown separate from any other political entity. That is the only way to go. In addition, Map #2 should be corrected as it shows Serbian names of Kosovan towns exclusively and that is POV par excellence. --alchaemia (talk

) 08:00, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

The things is, if you compare the current map with

WP:WPMAP. — chandler

— 12:13, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

YOU said that This map would be Serbian POV. So, can you explain me why do we show it on an article which has to be neutral !? You talk about neutrality and NPOV but you show the opposite by leaving this map, which is, to you, Serbian POV, on this article. Mister IP.--84.227.42.104 (talk) 13:44, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

http://www.ethnography.com/2008/04/the-battle-for-kosovo-on-the-internet/#comment-604

Is this fake to you? Do you understand how a monastery that is 900 years old should not be bombed? It is your duty as an Albanian to tell your side of the story. I have nothing against that. I want you to write about the massacres if you have sources. Just stop the crap. No I dont hate the Jews. I even read their religious texts once, amazing people.

http://brianakira.files.wordpress.com/2008/02/kosovo-muslims-pissing-on-destroyed-orthodox-church.jpg

http://www.usde.se/zaboravi/akomozes/kosovo/images/ovkodsgl.jpgSerbian Defense Forces (talk) 04:12, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

Who said anything about the Jewish people?I just provided a link about the Serbian propaganda phenomenon.Propaganda was used as a war tool by Serbian politicians and the army in the Balkan conflicts.Who said anything about the monisteries?I think you're arguing with yourself?!?!? btw.I'm not Albanian.--(GriffinSB) (talk) 15:41, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

pray avoid posting random weblinks, and try to follow

The first link talks about what really happened to the 8 monasteries in Kosovo while the second link shows the actual destruction. Could someone add this to the article because I may have some prejudice on the subject.
http://www.yaledailynews.com/articles/view/23634
http://www.serbianorthodoxchurch.net/historyofchurch/destruction1999/index.htmlMike Babic (talk) 17:49, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Yale Daily News? What's that, some basement-run one-man enterprise? SerbianOrthodoxChurch.net? Really? Find some credible independent sources, and add them yourself keeping NPOV in mind. --alchaemia (talk) 07:18, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

No it's a college daily newspaper (the latter which you mention). Far from being a "basement-run one-man enterprise", it probably still doesn't qualify as a "Wikipedia reliable source"; it's certainly not on the list anyhow. I'm afraid the only sources which can be used here are the known international news networks and the broadsheet newspapers from a number of countries. I don't like it at all, but it's the rule.

talk

) 10:51, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4083005.stm

I think actually we are far advanced of any stage where denials can be made about the systematic and rampant destruction and desecration of Orthodox temples and shrines in Kosovo. I cannot take anyone seriously who continues to allege that Serbs are making this up, and it is shameful that the monks in this province should be repaid for their efforts to defend Albanians by being branded as liars. Eugene-elgato (talk) 18:20, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transnistria Why is in Transnistria article the infobox at top and not in Kosovo article? --84.56.250.118 (talk) 21:47, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

as you can see, it doesn't have any other infoboxes... — CHANDLER^#10 — 06:46, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

A further article to compare against is the article on

South_ossetia. Hobartimus (talk

) 06:56, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Thank you. So move the Kosovar infobox on top, too, please. --84.56.232.213 (talk) 22:27, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

South Ossetia is not comparable because it is not a region of Georgia, but carved out of several Georgian regions. Transnistria is comparable, but proper solution should be to introduce Moldova province infobox like here. Nikola (talk) 10:13, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

serb-POVers used South Ossetia as a reason not to change the map of Serbia because the map of Georgia had not been changed. Now they are saying it is not the same thing as Kosovo? I hope i'm not the only one noticing this. Emto (talk) 14:36, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

South Ossetia is similar to Kosovo in some respects, and dissimilar in others. It is similar in respect that it is a region that separeted from a country, it is dissimilar in being a pre-existing region of the country. Nikola (talk) 19:08, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

  The only difference is that Russia Claims there different(I don't see how)--76.105.233.104 (talk) 03:54, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

The article Republic of Serbian Krajina is a lost cause because there have been too much editing warring on it. Most editors have given up. So if anyone could work on it it would be great. But its a brutally developed article that shouldnt be a base for the Kosovo article.Serbian Defense Forces (talk) 23:04, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

As a Serb I believe that Kosovo Albanians sided with the Nazis and cleansed out Serbs from Kosovo in 1940's. Similarly, I want to determine if these sites are propaganda or the truth.Serbian Defense Forces (talk) 08:23, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

Look, a couple of idiots don't represent the whole albanians. Most albanians helped the jews during WWII, Israel even thanks Albania officially for that, so much for the "Nazi Albania" propaganda -- CD 22:12, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

It’s quite clear that the change of the status of the former

--BalkanWalker (talk) 06:29, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Nobody said anything here… so I’m restoring the info about Slobodan Milosevic right now.--BalkanWalker (talk) 16:15, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

This info needs to be added http://www.zibb.com/article/4602398/Kosovo+parliament+approves+2009+budget about the Kosovo budget to be 1.45bn EUR for 2009. Kosova2008 68.187.141.179 (talk) 05:19, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

How comes that even Somaliland has his own country info box on top but not Kosovo? --84.57.225.100 (talk) 17:06, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

Do you see any other infoboxes on that article? — CHANDLER#10 — 17:21, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

I see other infoboxes in Kosovos article. Please remove them. Thank you. --84.57.225.100 (talk) 18:04, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

....................................................... In Somaliland...................... How can it not be the top infobox if its the only one.... — CHANDLER#10 — 21:53, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

Why double standards? If one infobox is fine for Somaliland, so why not also for Kosovo? And Somaliland is not the only example, there are many, here one more: Tuvan_People's_Republic. Kosovo seems to be the only one with more than one infobox. Why this discrimination? --84.56.228.126 (talk) 04:01, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Because Kosovo is not only a country, but a historical region and still a recognized part of Serbia in most of the world as that under UN administration... And the only reason you want it up top is because you think it would give more credibility or make more countries recognize Kosovo as a country just because omg it's the topmost infobox on wikipedia. Throwing away NPOV without consideration, if you look through the talk archives you'll probably find lengthy discussions about this subject. — CHANDLER#10 — 04:34, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Serbia is not a historical region? Yes, it is. And look at Tuvan_People's_Republic, it was recognized by no other country but it has his own country box. So again, why this double standards? Do you want to tell us that double standards are NPOV? --84.57.235.64 (talk) 19:25, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

If you look at that article you'll see that the republic isn't located at Tuva, which covers the region... If the ROK was split from this article to Republic of Kosovo it would have its infobox on top... But I dont see the double standard as the Tuvan PR has a own article and not merged with Tuvan... — CHANDLER#10 — 19:49, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

No POV fork, please. If some day Kosovo becomes a part of Albania, then you can make your own RoK article and the article named Kosovo would reflect the new reality. But until this happens, Kosovo is RoK. --84.57.235.64 (talk) 19:58, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

The difference between Somaliland and Kosovo is that Somaliland does not have a regional equivelent in Somalia - several regions represent the territory of the Republic of Somaliland within Somalia. Kosovo is different because both Serbia and the Kosovo government recognize the territory as composing a singular entity.--R-41 (talk) 16:47, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

That is not the truth.

In fact, the Yugoslav Serbian SR “Autonomous Province of Kosovo and Metohija” ceased to exist in 1974, when the new Yugoslav Constitution was stablished. Between 1974 and 1990, there was no “Kosovo and Metohija”. --alchaemia (talk) 02:24, 28 February 2009 (UTC) The action of Serbian SR leader Slobodan Milosevict was first to dissolve both the former autonomous Kosovo parliament and the independent League of Communists of Kosovo, and then dissolve the autonomies of Serbian SR SAP's, re-creating the so-called “Autonomous Province of Kosovo and Metohija”.

Before any editor try to remove the reference to

But this is not the point. The point is that the abolition of the Socialist Autonomous Province of Kosovo and the re-creation of the Autonomous Province of Kosovo and Metohija by the Slobodan Milosevic government in Serbian Socialist Republic of Yugoslavia is an uncontested historical fact, largely documented and comment at the time. There is no reason to deny or hide about the fact.--BalkanWalker (talk) 05:45, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Any of those sources talk about the illegitimate nature of that "abolition"? --alchaemia (talk) 02:24, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

"Kosovo officials say the Saatchi & Saatchi advertising company has won a contract worth 5.7 million Euros ($7.3 million US Dollars) to improve the "country's" international image."[link]

I expect them to start editing this article. I expect "new editors" that will change many historical facts, especially those relating to Serbia. This $7.3 million contract has been announced today, January 22, 2009. The purpose of this contract is to convert people to be pro Kosovo independence regardless of facts. They will surely make this article slanted, and highly biased in order to promote that cause. I'm asking all editors start watching this article more closely.Serbian Defense Forces (talk) 23:09, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

So in other words, you are entitled to defend Serbia by presenting lies but Kosovars are not, whatever... 85.144.179.57 (talk) 20:50, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

All Im saying is that we can expect this [type] of activity. It will only add to the already pro-Albanian bias in the article. It is immensely hard to predict what exactly Saatchi & Saatchi will do in order to earn that $7.3 million. It is important to keep a watch on new editors.Serbian Defense Forces (talk) 19:26, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

Seems like the start of the $7.3 million dollar project to promote Kosovo's amputation has started tonight. Tonights' episode of Mad TV mentions Kosovo.

Mad TV is a comedy show that has a serious viewership and is being broadcast to 300 million Americans and 30 million Canadians. Being a Serbian victim of past propaganda I can clearly see that this is the start of the campaign mentioned above. It is being used as the first step in the larger picture. As for myself, I realize that there is zero chance that I can fight back against $7.3 millions dollars since they will most likely use Youtube, Facebook, Internet forumns, TV Shows, Radio shows, lobbied politics and other means to promote Kosovos separation. It is somewhat time consuming to fight against these people yet it holds a great reward. So I'm asking people to contribute to this article from the Serbian prospective as well. Please try to keep a watch on weasel editors who add uncited facts.Serbian Defense Forces (talk

) 06:22, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

1244 is still in effect. It is a serious offense to common decency, common sense, to breach international law. All those countries that seem to separate their common sense from their actions, should be sued by Serbia. Anyways, I just have read that Kosovo separatists have paid "The Economist" to publish favorable articles on the so-called "Republic of Kosovo". There needs to be a substantial discussion on the sources used to back up the claims on this article.Serbian Defense Forces (talk) 09:49, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

That intro is pretty terrible now, can we revert that? Beam 00:59, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

TURN Republic of Kosova into an article...this is rediculous. The political limbo of the newly republic should not

affect Kosova having it's own article regarding the REPUBLIC OF KOSOVA.

No POV fork please, there is only one Kosovo and this is the Republic of Kosovo. There are no 2 different entities, no 2 different locations called Kosovo. This article is about the Republic of Kosovo as Kosovo is now for over a year an independent state recognized by 56 countries including all of his neighbours but Serbia. --84.57.225.100 (talk) 17:18, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

Wow 56 countries. That's barely 25% of the total countries in the world. And many of those recognizing have only done so because of political pressure from the USA. Notable countries which refuse to recognize this crime include Spain, Greece, Cyprus, China, Argentina, Slovakia, New Zealand and of course about 150 other countries. Sure, independence has been declared and some countries have recognized this and the country is not governed by Serbia but it's no independent state.--217.203.166.49 (talk) 16:14, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

Following the invitation from Leopold I, Holy Roman Emperor, in 1690, the Serbian Patriarch of Pec Arsenije III claimed that he led 37,000 predominantly Serbian families out of Kosovo and other areas into Austria. More migrations of Orthodox Christians from the Kosovo area preceded and followed throughout the 18th century during the Great Serb Migrations, in addition to the forcible removal of Christian subjects by the Turks as slaves and war booty. In 1766, the Ottomans abolished the Patriarchate of Pec and the position of Christians in Kosovo deteriorated, including full imposition of jizya (taxation of non-Muslims). In contrast, many Albanian chiefs converted to Islam and gained prominent positions in the Turkish regimen. On the whole, "Albanians had little cause of unrest" and "if anything, grew important in Ottoman internal affairs", and sometimes persecuted Christians harshly on behalf of their Turkish masters. The final result of four and a half centuries of Muslim rule was a marked decline in the previously dominant Slavic Christian demographic element in Kosovo. The cause of this demographic shift was manifold. The outward movement of Christians was accompanied by an inward migration of Albanians and other Islamic peoples such as Circassians (with notable anti-Christian sentiments), who often served as auxiliary troops for the Turks. In addition, during Ottoman rule, the distinction between Serb and Albanian was not always clear cut. As Islam became the dominant religion, some Serbs converted to Islam and lost their Serbian identity, and were rather referred to as "Turks" or "Albanians". In the 19th century, there was a "awakening" of ethnic nationalism throughout the Balkans. The ethnic Albanian nationalism movement was centered in Kosovo. This, unfortunately, systemetised the underlying ethnic tensions into a broader struggle of Christian Serbs against Muslim Albanians.

In 1871, a Serbian meeting was held in Prizren at which the possible retaking and reintegration of Kosovo and the rest of "Old Serbia" was discussed, as the Principality of Serbia itself had already made plans for expansions towards Ottoman territory. In 1878, a Peace Accord was drawn that left the cities of Pristina and Kosovska Mitrovica under civil Serbian control, and outside Ottoman jurisdiction, while the rest of Kosovo remained under Ottoman control. In the same year ethnic Albanians formed the League of Prizren, pursuing political aspirations of unifying the Albanian people and seeking autonomy within the Ottoman Empire, although certain Albanian factions wished for a continuance of the Ottoman Empire.

The excerpt above on the article is based mainly on the book “The Serbs”, by

The question is, do we have a better source than the Serbian sources above? I presume that we don't. So, the book should be used since the most of the information can be checked by alternative sources.Serbian Defense Forces (talk) 21:16, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

To the user above, please create a user account. For better or for worse, snonymous users who discuss and edit things are usually distrusted on Wikipedia because they may be previously banned users. Also be very careful when you accuse a source of being "pro-Serbian", you better have clear evidence to back up such a claim or your claim will not be taken seriously as these accusations of "pro-Serb" and "pro-Albanian" are commonplace in this article and usually made by users who are biased themselves.--R-41 (talk) 18:02, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Please fix the population broken link .. http://www.ks-gov.net/ESK/eng/ AnteKosova 21:04 , 3 Mars 2009 (UTC)

"Kosovo (Albanian: Kosova, Kosovë; Serbian: Косово or Косово и Метохија, Kosovo or Kosovo i Metohija) is a disputed region in the Balkans. Its majority is governed by the partially-recognised Republic of Kosovo"

If majority of the region is governed by the partially-recognised Republic of Kosovo then why article do not mention who govern the rest of the region? I suppose it would be Serbs from North Kosovo, but why this is not explained in the introduction? 81.18.48.224 (talk) 21:22, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

As neither an Albanian or a Serb, I have noticed for some time that this article and the discussion page has become utilized by POV-pushing which is deliberately attempting to cast negative villainized views of Albanians or Serbs, or to push beliefs that Kosovo is either part of Serbia or that it has been legitimized as an independent country. I have seen people on this article accuse each other of being "pro-Serb" or "pro-Albanian" and starting vicious arguments. This is hatemongering and baiting people to start arguments, Wikipedia administrators should take an even stronger stand against this hatemongering, for instance the practice of people assuming bad faith (which is banned on Wikipedia) and are accusing each other of being "pro-Serb" or "pro-Albanian" should be stopped entirely, users who continue do this or accuse an entire group of people like "Albanians" or "Serbs" as a whole of committing atrocities or crimes should be banned from Wikipedia. It is understandable to say that certain groups from these nations did crimes, but accusations against an entire nation or ethnic group only serve to cause conflict on the discussion page and make the discussion environment on this article worse for editors who are genuinely commmitted to promoting a neutral and balanced article. If someone has a problem with the content of the article, criticize the content, but NOT THE NATIONALITY OF THE USER or supposed biases by a user towards a nationality. Secondly, Wikipedia administrators should be more strict in being deletionist in regards to controversial material being put on this page to villainize Albanians or Serbs, as I have seen these attempts repeatedly. This does not mean that information on wars or atrocities by these groups towards each other should be ignored in parts of the article regarding conflict, but such material must be backed up by multiple, reliable sources (i.e. DON'T rely on website material that could be made by anyone with unverifiable information, rely on multiple books or articles made by scholars on the subjects). Lastly, editors should write more about other material aside from the history of conflict and war in the region, such as significant historical achievements in Kosovo - be it cultural, scientific, technological, etc. The section on conflict and war in Kosovo should be isolated to one specific section in the article, while other sections can focus on other material without getting entangled into the controversial aspects of conflict and war in Kosovo.--R-41 (talk) 18:15, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

Kosovo, might i inform you, as you prove yourself to be ignorant, is a very important historical part of SERBIA-the albainians HAVE NO right whatsoever to it. I mean, come on, the first serbian school was built there, among other things! As you have pointed out that you are neither albanian our serbian, you really cant imagine how much historical value Kosovo has for me and my fellow serbs. Especially how much it pains us to have something which is a part of us wrenched away from us. Because the first time that happened we did nothing-nikola tesla who was legally a serbian by birth, his notes were lawfully ours(we would have placed them in our national museum. Instead, America decided suddenly, that THEY deserve his notes, which they end up using to create war weapons. Definatly NOT fair. I advise you NOT to make any further comments like this, to avoid being attacked by serbs who think you shouldn't say a thing when you have no idea what your taking about. Let us take care of our affairs, you take care of yours.75.155.170.198 (talk) 01:20, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

It's already under an Arbcom probation as advertised on top of the page. Abusers need simply to be reported to an admin with evidence of disruptive behavior and hatemongering. Húsönd 19:03, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

User names like "Serbian Defense Forces" also aren't exactly conductive to a peaceful atmosphere of npov. I recognize Serbian Defense Forces (talk · contribs) as an intelligent user who is honest about being partisan, but I would seriously recommend a username change if he wants to be taken at all seriously. And yes, we should also clamp down more decidedly on

I appreciate your concern on this matter, but I think that there should be no sympathy for anyone who is deliberatly pushing biases whether or not they are honest in openly declaring those biases. If anything, if they are attempting to show good will by admitting their biases, they must also be willing to accept that some of their views might be wrong. I have been proven wrong by other users on many occasions, but instead of holding the other person in contempt, I learn from my errors and am willing to change my views if the evidence against my views is overwhelming. Other users must do this. As for this article right now, due to controversial topics within it I suggest that it be put through rigorous deletionist measures to get rid of poor sources (i.e. websites not associated with scholarly sources or which have declared or apparent biases like promoting Kosovo independence or websites promoting Kosovo as a Serbian province). I am going to make a start with this, but I do not have the time to constantly do this, so I urge you User dab to help out by trying to get the support of some administrators for them to pay closer attention to any new content that is added to this article - if such material is non-scholarly and dubious it should be scrapped as that is the way that professional people make scholarly work.--R-41 (talk) 22:04, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

As a footnote, Kosovo is legally a part of Serbia. Just check the UN Resolution 1244 and it states that it is a UN administered province of Serbia. Legally Kosovo is not a country. I think it should be mutually agreed that it is a United Nations administered province of Serbia. -rmaslic

What gives the UN the right to decide that?76.105.233.104 (talk) 03:40, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

I have watched a few cases of the kind of uncooperative/disruptive editing that we are aiming to reduce. The problem I think is that too often sane editors assume that other editors are also sane and therefore capable of detached observation and reason. I think that maybe 5-10% of disruptive editors are capable of rational thought when it comes to topics that are personally sensitive to them regarding cultural issues. Perhaps if we could have a team of verified psychologists on wikipedia, we could screen for those not capable of rational thought and ban them from editing. The evaluations could be done on the basis of their comments at talk pages and the nature of their article editing. The people who are disruptive and frequently irrational should not hinder the progress of these kinds of projects. Its only a suggestion of how to enforce what you have described. Cheers. 70.171.22.172 (talk) 10:48, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Very admirable sentiment R-41. Sadly, most of those doing the disruption I think are personally involved, being Serb or Albania themselves. It's hard to get those disrupting to behave like adults. I guess though if the Wikipedia community just keeps it's eye out we can report these people and make sure they don't alter the article in a negative way Lemniwinks (talk) 04:39, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

I appreciate the supportive statements above. Thank you. My argument is that it seems like that "pro Serbian" side is being suppressed. For example, this usually doesn't stay too long in the article. Specifically, sources statements like "...Kosovo which is the main transit point for all drugs" seem to disappear instantly. Likewise, this statement wont stay too long in the article "over 200,000 Serbs have been ethnically cleansed by the Albanian authorities". Seriously, even this article talks about how people who say anything negative about Kosovo's separation are labeled "Serbian agents" or "Serb apologists". To end this note on a positive, supportive stance, i support Albanian right to self-determination. Yet I have experienced the media war, that happened against Serbs in 1990's. I know how the game is played. Simultaneously, I feel powerless to cause a serious change in peoples opinion. G-d bless.Serbian Defense Forces (talk) 06:15, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Why do we measure in double standards in this case? Transnistria is much more a disputed country than Kosovo as it is not recognised by no other state, nevertheless Kosovo does not have its country box on top! How comes? --84.56.254.172 (talk) 17:22, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

This has been discussed numerous times. And as always... Transnistria doesn't even have a infobox about the region, it only has ONE infobox, so how can it NOT be on the top? chandler · 17:46, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

Why has Kosovo not also just one infobox? Please delete all the other infoboxes, one is enough as shown in the Transnistria case. --Schwarzschachtel (talk) 23:12, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

No. It is NOT a double standard, Transnistria is not a region inside of Moldova. Transnistria does not have a UN resolution of it. chandler · 23:37, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

The reason you give is very arbitrary. If a region declares independence and gets recognition it deserves the countrybox and no other, just like in many other cases as shown before. Therefore the double standard is undeniable. --84.56.250.27 (talk) 08:11, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Recognition is relative. Many countries (the majority actually) do not recognize Kosovo as independent, thus we must have different infoboxes that conform to different

neutral points of view. This has been discussed multiple times. Húsönd

19:18, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

I'm not trying to hit the hornets' nest here, but I think the Kosovo situation has evolved/matured somewhat in the past year, and that some decisions made last year could stand to be revisited now. Given that Kosovo has been de facto sovereign for a year now — and that, although its status is still hotly disputed, it is currently recognized by more countries than

Taiwan (which has a country box on top) — it seems to me that it's very reasonable to acknowledge the current reality and move Kosovo's country box to the top of the article. If we're comparing Kosovo to the PMR (Transnistria), I would think the case for Kosovo having a prominent country box is stronger than that of the PMR, since the territory of Transnistria is claimed by the Republic of Moldova. Richwales (talk

) 19:35, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

The difference with Taiwan is multiple articles (one for the island, one for the country, and one for the PRC region). If the Republic of Kosovo was on

Republic of Kosovo the infobox would be at the top, but as I remember it that was shouted down by pro-independence editors. chandler ·

19:48, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Just an observer here, but I think the person who brought up the issue has a point. What exactly is the argument against this? Lemniwinks (talk) 04:45, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Those already stated here and there and there. Other examples don't have other infoboxes of the region (which in most cases isn't the same, here we have 2 entities claiming the exact same region etc), they might have separate articles for the region and the disputed country (which again, as been shouted down by those who wan't the ROK infobox at the top). So therefore the neutral infobox of the region has been chosen over the Republic of Kosovo's and the UN mandate's infoboxes chandler · 05:01, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

And as dab wrote on the first of those archives chandler · 05:03, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Transnistria does indeed seem to have pov problems. Please come to Talk:Transnistria and help fixing them rather than trying to use them for leverage in introducing pov problems to this article. See also WP:OTHERCRAP. The existence of flawed articles is no excuse for introducing even more flaws.

If other articles have obvious NPOV flaws fix them instead of trying to use them as POV-push tools chandler · 05:03, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

I find the reason you give not convincing. Kosovo is a country and not a region. --Tubesship (talk) 23:25, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Most still say its a province. --Local hero 00:21, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Most countries still say Taiwan is a province of the People's Republic of China. (Even more countries, I believe, than the number which think Kosovo is still part of Serbia.) This isn't a good enough criterion. Richwales (talk

) 01:10, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

This is why the article should be SPLIT! You can't cover all the things this article tries to (geographic region, Autonomous Province, UN administration, Republic) in one article without upsetting SOMEONE who thinks that their interpretation should be preeminent. The previous provincial administrations (as part of Yugoslavia) and the 1990s declared republic each have their own page, why not the conflicting modern administrations? Khajidha (talk) 15:43, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

No! Kosovo is a country and includes the region and the geographic, so why should it not be possible to incorporate the "region and the geograpic" as there is no difference at all but they are congruent to each other?! Your reasons are no reasons at all but are only aimed to cause a POV fork. --Schwarzschachtel (talk) 07:49, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

There's no POV fork about having a separate article for the history of a region, a region, different historical governments of a region. chandler · 07:54, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

You may have everything you want if you name it correctly. Kosovo is about the country, no disambiguation, no POV fork. Therefore the country box should be the only one and there is no need for other info boxes, especially not on top of the article. --Schwarzschachtel (talk) 08:20, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

You say that you don't what any distractions? Then why are you being one. this article is NOT about the country formed in 2008 just so you know, this includes pre-2008 about Kosovo (as in the region). And just so you know it's not a POV fork to split information into articles where they fit. See for example how Macedonia is split... again it is not a POV fork to have a article on the historical region called Kosovo and a separate for a new country. If you think that is a POV fork you better actually find out what it means. Just as the Republic of China, and Taiwan isnt one, PR of China and China isnt one, Republic of Macedonia and Macedonia isn't one, etc etc etc. They are not POV forks and neither would this be. chandler · 08:34, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

And I hope you realise that there are other articles that in your mind surely would constitute POV-forks

1. Autonomous Province of Kosovo and Metohija (1946-1974), a province of Serbia
2. Socialist Autonomous Province of Kosovo (1974-1990), a province of Serbia
3. Republic of Kosova (1990–2000), a self-declared but internationally unrecognised entity
4. Autonomous Province of Kosovo and Metohija (1990-1999), a province of Serbia

So you're gonna go and request them to merge with this article right? "no disambiguation, no POV fork.", or do you want to change your mind chandler · 08:39, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

It is enough to look at the sorry state of the mentioned articles to understand that they are indeed POV-forks. Colchicum (talk) 01:25, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

Thank you, Cholchium. It's a shame to see how Wikipedia is getting abused by a few people. --84.56.250.27 (talk) 01:53, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

Your example is misleading as the region Macedonia is not congruent with the Republic of Macedonia. I know that you know because this was mentioned before so why do you try persistently to mislead people? --84.56.250.27 (talk) 12:12, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

It doesnt have anything to do with it. The country isn't on "Macedonia" even if it's the most common name. That's why Republic of Kosovo can be on Republic of Kosovo. chandler · 12:29, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

Please stop your distraction as I already told you about congruency. There is no congruency in case of Macedonia and that's why Macedonia is not about the country and that's why there must be a disambiguation in case of Macedonia. This is not the case in Kosovo, therefore no disambiguation and no POV fork. Kosovo is the country. --84.56.250.27 (talk) 12:38, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

First of all, you dont know what a POV fork is if you think EVERY split of an article is a POV fork, second your point about "Macedonia is not congruent with the Republic of Macedonia" doesn't matter as the Repulbic of Macedonia in reality is the primary topic people will look for, But because of a small dispute it's not on Macedonia. While this is a much larger dispute at the moment, you're trying to push through your POV (not bothering about the neutral pov) that the whole world has accepted the Republic of Kosovo as a country and as in power of Kosovo, which is NOT the case. chandler · 00:18, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

I am tired of your distractions. --84.56.250.27 (talk) 07:05, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

So don't come back, you're a distraction chandler · 11:15, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

Shouldn't the lead mention "Kosovo is a partially recognised country" somewhere near the top? Διγουρεν_{Εμπρος!} 22:27, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

And by mentioning this it should also be annotated that Kosovo has already gained more recognitions than Taiwan. Every day of Kosovos existence nails it firmer on world maps. --84.56.250.27 (talk) 00:10, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

It does mention, Its majority is governed by the partially-recognised Republic of Kosovo. And comparison with Taiwan is a thing of simple maths, no need to mention it separately. --Tone 10:50, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

Maybe we should expand the article a bit and explain readers that Kosovo Albanians suffered from Serbian terrorism since Kosovo became part of Yugoslavia? I think that issues with Serb terror in Kosovo should be dealt in the article. Thank you. Bosniak (talk) 04:56, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

And the countdown until some Serb poster goes into hysterics over this post begins.Khajidha (talk) 13:44, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

Yes, this article is a good example for how Wikipedia can be abused by a group of pro Serbian nationalists. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.57.255.224 (talk) 18:22, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

OK, anyone want to take bets on the next post after this one, then? I'll give evens for a hystrionic pro-Serb counterpost and 5/2s on another anti-Serb "yeah-you-tell-'em".  ;) The Tom (talk) 19:20, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

The next post will remind everyone to use the talk page to comment on how to improve the article rather than to belittle the opinion of people who have not yet spoken. If there is something someone can add to this discussion that will result in the article being improved, please do so. Otherwise, please avoid fanning the flames.

Thank you! Big Bird (talk • contribs) 20:17, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

Reading some posts is time that seems to be in vain. The article is seriously skewed towards pro-Kosovo seperation from Serbia. Seriously facts, such as K-Albanians burning Serb churches dont make it to the article. Essentially, there are many sources that planly state that the Serb "massacres" in Kosovo were greatly exagurated by the Western Media. Lets Start with that. (This is only for people who know Serbian history very well--->) The top adviser for Milosevic, Jovica Stanisic was working for the CIA. So essentialy, the CIA was calling the shots on the "Serb" side during the conflicts (this is the guy who "conviniently set up a "Serb death squad in Bosnia and taped the killings". This is some truth i share with you. You may wish to consider adding a section about the destruction of Serbian churches. Seems like a relevent thing to add. Lastly, I usually forgive yet I cant forgive stupidity and racism based on false information.Super ZZ 3 (talk) 20:43, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

You remind me of some holocaust deniers. Shame on you. --84.56.237.2 (talk) 21:06, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Stop the

Serbophobia!!! Your comment seems to be someone racist. I will forgive your lack of knowledge on this issue. I lived though this [type] of hell and I know that media is biased. YET this is 2009, and now WIKIPEDIA is biased. This is the new front. G-d bless.Super ZZ 3 (talk

) 00:20, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

Stop defending the racist apartheid regime that existed in Kosovo by telling us lies about the conflict that the serbs are responsible for. --84.56.237.2 (talk) 11:10, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

Firstly, Sebs were under a dicatorship and Serbs protested Slobodan Milosevic. Shows some respect and sympathy. Read [this] and [watch some videos] to learn about a different view on the Kosovos' issues.24.36.148.68 (talk) 17:40, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

serbs protested against Slobo after well deserved bombs fell upon them and Kosovo was freed. And about the genocide see this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nusaLngStiI and this: http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/Kosovo/Kosovo-Photographs.htm --84.56.237.2 (talk) 18:45, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

How come there isn't a section/ chapter on Education in Kosovo? It should include the universities, literacy rating, primary language used in the schools ect

Because unfortunatley this is no more WP but serbopedia when it comes to Kosovo related articles thanks to some serbophile admins. --84.56.237.2 (talk) 18:54, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

Let's all admit that it completely defaces the article to have three templates on top jumbled together. Enough time has passed that the facts should be respected and fact is that Kosovo declared independence, nobody disputes that. At this point any serious challenge to that independence must come in the form of military action. Let's imagine if there was no US war of independence and instead King George simply said "I dispute your independence I think you are just a province" like the case here. Is this enough? Would we regard the US as a province today in that case? Without a war of independence between Serbia and Kosovo how can it be decided? Serbia had the choice to declare war on Kosovo but they did not, they instead gave implicit approval to the independence. The Wikipedia article should reflect the realities on the ground. If Serbs really beleive that Kosovo is part of Serbia they should send in the police to arrest anyone who says otherwise. Hobartimus (talk) 22:14, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

As I've said before this article is being used for three separate concepts, each of which needs its own infobox. The only way to remove the multiple infoboxes is to SPLIT the article and cover each topic separately.Khajidha (talk) 00:37, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

I agree with Hobartimus and I disagree with Khajidha. Khajidha, you may split but

Kosmet

to Kosovo does not reflect the serbian lies.

Wow, I've never been accused of being a voice for "sick serbian propaganda" before. Actually, I SUPPORT the independence of Kosovo. I made the suggestion of splitting because I felt that it was impossible to get a good Republic of Kosovo article while Serbian posters were constantly forcing it to comply with their ideas of what a Kosmet article should be. AND because it is impossible to get a good Kosmet article with pro-Kosovan posters forcing it to comply with what a Republic of Kosovo article should be. The fact is BOTH views have fairly widespread international currency and BOTH deserve a Wikipedia article. Just as there are SEPARATE articles for the previous (unrecognized) Kosovan state and the previous forms of the Autonomous Province of Kosovo and Metohija, there should be separate articles for the current (partially recognized) Republic of Kosovo and the present Serbian government designated autonomous province. ALL of these articles would be linked to a central article on the geographic region. The central article would acknowledge the ambiguity and direct readers to the different sides. Each individual article would have a short note that explained the ambiguity and then cover the relevant material. That is the Republic of Kosovo article would mention that not all states recognize its independence, but would then present only the RoK data. What is so wrong about that idea?Khajidha (talk) 15:29, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Whats wrong with reflecting reality? I agree that some countries recognise Kosovo as a seperate entity from Serbia yet most countries dont. Khajidha is right on the issue.Super ZZ 3 (talk) 20:45, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

You want to tell us that Taiwan is not independent as it has far less recognition? Honestly? Read the Montevideo Convention, its first sentence of article 3 explicitly states that "The political existence of the state is independent of recognition by the other states." --84.56.237.2 (talk) 21:02, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

it was signed by Honduras, United States of America, El Salvador, Dominican Republic, Haiti, Argentina, Venezuela, Uruguay, Paraguay, Mexico, Panama, Guatemala, Brazil, Ecuador, Nicaragua, Colombia, Chile, Peru, Cuba, not a majority of the world countries. Nice argument tho.Super ZZ 3 (talk) 00:23, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

Again, you want to tell us that Taiwan is not independent as it has far less recognition? Honestly, stop your distratcion. --84.56.237.2 (talk) 07:43, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

This has been discussed many times and it took many lengthy discussions for us to reach the 3-infobox compromise solution. It's

This article is abused and you know that. I am very disappointed that you do want to keep it this way, dear Husond. --84.56.237.2 (talk) 16:03, 28 March 2009 (UTC) BTW: In every other language the WP is more NPOV (with the exception of the serbian WP) as they have only one template, the one of the Republic of Kosovo. Don't you think this is something to think about instead of trying to stall any discussion about this shameful pure serbian propaganda article?

Unfortunately it's a very hard question. For example if you insert a picture into this article which is on Commons it is possible for users to attack the picture on commons. In the past such attacks against pictures on Commons happened quite frequently because admins here cannot ban accounts on commons. For example check the file history of this file. Even if this article is fully protected it is still possible for a user to change the map itself on commons. This also happened during a period when the article was fully protected following the declaration of independence. Hobartimus (talk) 18:42, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

Yes, and you know what is the most shocking fact? That the worst abusers are administrators or persons who are backed up by administrators! That is really disgusting. --84.56.237.2 (talk) 18:51, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

Isn't this undoubtably a sign of POV when the english WP together with the serbian WP is the only one that has not the country box template on top? And dear Husond, don't dare to call me a troll again and dear Dieter Bachmann, aka dab, don't dare to block me, as this question is absolutely justified. In opposite, you both are misusing your admin status and I hope someone will hold you accountable for that. --84.56.237.2 (talk) 10:24, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Its clear to me that its pro-Albanian. Look at this [EVENT!!!] Its clearly not in the article because the article is clearly pro-Albanian.24.36.148.68 (talk) 13:25, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

I'm going to say that this article is probably some sort of frankenstien-ish mixture of pro-serbian and pro-albanian POVs. In short, a horrifying mess. Who else says we should do a facelift? Zazaban (talk) 19:46, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Se/e/ms fair to do that...24.36.148.68 (talk) 22:34, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

These questions need to addressed. who/what/where/why/how 1. Ethnic cleansing of Albanians and Kosovo War massacre 2. Ethnic cleansing of Serbs 3. Destructions of holy sites (Serb/Albanian) 4. Feel free to add issues to this list. Mike Babic (talk) 04:14, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Once again the talk page is being FILLED with people accusing some editors of being "pro-Albanian" and others of being "pro-Serb". Plus claims of Serbian terrorism which will be followed by accusations of Albanian terrorism. The one fact that is true is that Albanians and Serbs have not have good relations between each other for MANY, MANY years. So these two camps have got to prevented from being allowed to have edit wars with each other on Wikipedia. I have told people in the past to control themselves and criticize the content of what a user is saying, NOT THEIR NATIONALITY, accusing a person of bias without justification simply because of their nationality is xenophobic prejudice. The next time I ever see on this discussion page an accusation by someone of another person being "pro-Albanian" or "pro-Serb", I will send a request to administrators to have this page FULLY BANNED from any amateur users from editing it, then they will have to send their requests for changes to the article to administrators who will decide whether the changes are needed. I believe that the amount of xenophobic hatred between Albanians and Serbs may justify this article being blocked from any non-administrator edits. I have made suggestions in the past on this talk page for ways to have moderate edits which respect different points of, but they have been ignored. They have been ignored because of a large number of completely immature and biased users, particularly Albanians and Serbs who are emotionally attached to the content of this article. This is a final warning to those users who refuse to cooperate and insist on accusing one side of being ostensibly evil and the other side of being innocent: stop this biased and immature behaviour immediately or I will request that this article be blocked from any non-administrator users from editing it. Don't make up excuses. Just stop the negative behaviour NOW!--R-41 (talk) 06:02, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

Although there is a debate going on between Albanian and Serb editors, it is constructive. As exemplified above, there are many valid facts that are brought to the light when such debates occure. More importantly, it allows us to add to the article both sides of the story by discussing both sides. Creating a rigid, top-down authoritative system is counter-productive to the spirit of wikipedia. Moreover, it allows "administrators" to have an overriding say in what reflects "reality". Thus, it will allow for a concentration of editing power. This will undoubtfully lead to a more skewed article.Mike Babic (talk) 10:24, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

User:Mike Babic, you may very well be a good-intentioned user, but the use of terms "pro-Albanian" and "pro-Serb" by multiple users to denounce a point of view are predjudicial because how can one assert what the view of an entire nationality is on a topic, people are individuals with varying beliefs, even if they do agree in some way with something. All that I am requesting is that the prejudicial accusations of "pro-Albanian" or "pro-Serb" stop. If they do not stop, I will address this to Wikipedia administrators. This article was put in lockdown after Kosovo's government declared independence because fanatic partisans who favoured Kosovo's government or Serbia were fighting non-stop edit wars on the issue of independence. The administrators put the article on a temporary block from non-administrator user edits until the crisis of edit warring died down. That decision was a good decision, passions were too inflamed immediately after the Kosovo government's declaration of independence. If edit wars are going to return to this article, then the administrators should be informed and appropriate action should be taken. This article is already under watch, but immature users are still fighting. It is up to the users' actions to determine whether they can become more constructive or fall into edit warring, if the second choice is the case, measures must be taken to stop it.--R-41 (talk) 03:10, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

The Republic of Kosovo infobox seems to have a map which does not have clear border lines.

This is the only infobox in this whole article the should be doing justice to the Independent State has a map which still shows it as a province of Serbia.

Please can you admins change this map to the one that is use in the CIA World Fact book.

Even though everyone knows that Wikipedia is edited by people, they still look at wikipedia as a main source of information. For this reason i urge all editors of the Kosovo article to make a compromise and only have one infobox (Republic of Kosovo) or to split the article into as many sub-categories as are needed but making sure that the main Kosovo article should be replaced by the Republic of Kosovo. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.2.168.57 (talk) 15:49, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

I agree, the serbs should make their own article named Kosmet, like I proposed. This seems to me to be the only way to get this article right again. At the moment it is unbearable POVis pro-serbian propaganda. --84.56.237.2 (talk) 16:02, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

this has been discussed. On the other hand, rhe article is definety pro-Albanian (doesnt include the destruction of Serbian churches, the drug and crimes in Kosovo, etc).24.36.148.68 (talk) 17:43, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

You may include the destrucion if you mention that the few destructed churches are all build up again, in opposite to the destructed mosques in serbia, as they are all destructed and no one still exists there. Again, please answer how it comes that the English and serbian WP are the only ones with more than one info box. Thank you. --84.56.237.2 (talk) 18:30, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

O man, lets put aside the fact that Albanians sided with the [Nazis] and commited ethnic cleansing in WW2 and that this isnt in the article. Lets put that aside. I want you to know that I respect Albanians since I know that they are being misguided. Above all, there are 3 info boxes since this reflects reality. A number of countries accept Kosovo seperations from Serbia yet also a number of countries see Kosovo as defined by the UN charter, Kosovo as part of Serbia. This is reflected in the 3rd info box (3rd since it usually goes in translation English version, Albanians version and then, at the end Serbian version). This article is clearly pro-Albanian.Mike Babic (talk) 21:20, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

What sides the Albanian government (read: government, not ethic group, which is not a cognitively unified entity and thus cannot chose sides as a whole) took in WW2 is completely and utterly irrelevant to the discussion. It's like bringing up Hitler while discussing something that Germany did in the last ten years. Zazaban (talk) 19:50, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Understandable, my point is that Albanian Kosovo "as a country" was first constructed by Hitler when K-Albanians sided with Hitler while Serbs popular support was anti-Nazi at that time. Since this is not mentioned, this is my support for illustrating my view of this article as being pro-Albanian. Another support would be the fact that K-Albanians as the poorest region in Yugoslavia got large amount of funding for schools, hositals, road, factories, etc. Over $1 million USD per day, back in 1990's went to construct Kosovo which was largly Albanian. Although largly Albanian, it wasnt 90% Albanian, it was lets guesstimate 80%. Thus, it is interesting to learn, that the method of removal of those 10% of Serbs from Kosovo is also not described in the article. Its somewhat clear that I'm baseing my view of this article on supportive facts that are not present in the article. Facts that should be present yet I dont care to write them since over time they will become present in the article.24.36.148.68 (talk) 22:31, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

To say that Kosovo independence move was created by Adolf Hitler is simply absurd — there is no serious historian (outside of the Balkans) that would believe this history. And, to make things clear, most of the killed people during the 1998-1999 Kosovo War were the Albanian-speaking Kosovars, not the Serbs or any other people of the region — and this is confirmed by all the forensics and the by the experts of ICTY, too.

The most massive people expulsion during the Kosovo war was also perpreted on Kosovar Albanians, too — the immense refugee camps in Montenegro, Albania and Macedonia weren’t mirgae, and contrary to Milosevic’s propaganda the Kosovar Albanians wer not fleeing NATO bombs, but Serb military and paramilitary forces — including the ones commanded by Arkan.

So, it seems like if anyone talks about common sense here is labelled “anti-Serb”, but if others say here that Kosovar Albanians were Muslim “Nazis in the past, Al Qaeda today”, nobody says a thing.--201.52.99.144 (talk) 06:31, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Why is Pec put first and then in brackets (Peja)? The same goes for Kosovska Mitrovica!? We here, that represent the reality and the only authority in Republic of Kosova, do not name our cities like that! The only ones that calls those cities like that are a minority! Surely youd want to name a city by how the authority in Republic of Kosova has named it, and as well as how the majority of Kosovars name it. Thus I propose to put albanian names for our cities, and put the bosnian/serbian ones in brackets cause obviosly I dont want them to feel left out. They too live here, but as a minority, they are the ones that should be put in brackets, not us the majority in Kosova Republic DiedonD (talk) 06:53, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

This article should not be about pro-albanian or pro-serb arguments. I would however like to point out that Kosovo is not a member of the United Nations, unlike all recognised countries. The fact that Serbs massacred Albanians should not be ignored, the actions were despicable. Since Kosovo's declaration of independence, the Albanians have a large majority and there is still alot of tension with the Serb minority, the Kosovan government needs to maintain order and protect the Serb minorities or else they shall come under the same scrutiny as the Milosevic regime. Kosovo has seen enough bombs and we don't need to see the same situation but played the other way round. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.102.6.103 (talk) 03:28, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

Serbian views on the past 20years can be summarised by this http://www.fpif.org/fpiftxt/5973 website.Mike Babic (talk) 20:54, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

In case you didn't know, both the United States and many European countries have recognized Kosovo. [16] Nonamer98 (talk) 23:48, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

I agree 100% with your statment. That should be added to the article. Yet that doesnt mean that a point proveing that Serbs were demonized in the media during the war should be removed. That should be mentioned. Also you might not realise the significance of that picture in the article, but I do.Mike Babic (talk) 02:45, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

To Talk about “demonization of Serbs” as a fact in the article is POV. Other thing to be clear about is that Kosovo is a partially-recognized country — with the USA, Germany, United Kingdom, France, Croatia, Macedonia and other countries recognizing its government, passports, flags and borders. And, in fact, if we see in other versions of Wikipedia, the only two versions that show Kosovo as a part of Serbia is the Serb Wikipedia and the English-language Wikipedia.

And one more time, the facxt that Kosovo is not in the UN would mean it isn’t a country. Switzerland was out of UN until the 21st century, and Taiwan left in 1971 — but both are considered countries. About recognition, Israel is not recognized by most of the Arab World, which in many times describe Israel as a mere “Zionist occupation of Palestine”. But no one serious says Israel does not exist as a country.

So, before invoking passions, think before writting, please.--201.52.99.144 (talk) 06:20, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

This is my motivational speech for a more neutral artiucle....Listen, I'm 100 hard core into politics. This could be my medication talking yet I want you to know that I just had surgery that will imporve the quality of my speech since I'm grooming myself to become an politician. To add, I want you to know that I have lived though an ethnic cleansing of Serbs from Krajina. I know what the media in western country was reporting, and what was realisticlly happening. You can't argue against the demonization of Serbs in the 1990's by citing your opinion. Demonization of Serbs did happen in the media in order to allow the military to engage targets without protest. As shown in the article, the media reporting of 200,000 Albanians dead turned out to be less than 2000 in the years leading up to the bombing. The fact that the media lied should be added to the article. The fact that 2000 Albanians died should be added to the article. We also need to add the statement of the British Defense Secretary George Robertson, who stated that most of those 2000 Albanians in the pre-war period were "victims of the KLA rather than the Serbs". Yes, KLA killed Gorani (Muslims in Kosovo) and all other Albanians who did not want for Kosovo to seperate from Serbia. Now, my main drive for writing all this, is for the Serbs to stop being killed in the Kosovo and for our 1000 year old churches to stop being burned down. Above all, you need to stop complaing when I add sources such as the one above because I want the hatred of Albanian and Serbian people to stop. Now listen carefully, I dont belive In my Serbian goverment now, just like I didnt belive that Slobodan Milosevic was acting in the interest of Serbs. Thus, I want you to know that you need to write truth, without regards to whos cause it will help. This is the only way for the article to improve and for us to stop this hate. For example, you may noy like the fact that Serbia paid out millions of dollars to build Kosovo schools and hospitals, etc, yet this is a fact. Just like its a fact that all Albanians enjoyed stated sponsored, Albanians langauge TV, and Albanian langauge schools who were also sponsored by the Belgrade during most of the 20th century. Yet allow for these facts to enter the article. This is what will save your people. Kosovo is headed into becoming a mining country that will be filled with slave labour. This labour will be proivided by the local population. Already Serbs are economiclly being forced to sign up for US Army and go fight in Iraq since this is the only way for them to survive and send their family money. Lastly, I wish to say that certain groups working on this board, especially these [groups http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23219277/], will be recognised and exposed in an instant. I dont mind when people add pro-Albanians stuff, even if the article is still pro Albanians, yet they should also add some pro-Serbian stuff since this is the only way for our people to connect.Mike Babic (talk) 21:15, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Wrong. Kosovo IS a country, officially. It is recognized by more than 50 countries. Of course it's a country. You don't have to be a UN member to be a country. Kosovo already has recognition by the most powerful and the most democratic countries in the World.Bosniak (talk) 07:35, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

Personally I see China, Russia, India, perhaps even Brazil, Spain, Saudi Arabia and Iran as pretty powerful... But yes the

most democratic countries, we do recognize Kosovo (everyone in the top 10 except New Zealand at least) chandler ···

07:46, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

Palestinian territories are also recognised by a lot of countries, even Canada I think. The question with Kosovo right now is if the 1244 is still active. If it is, then Kosovo is 100% Serbian, if its not then it's a country.24.36.148.68 (talk) 10:21, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

Is a country defined by other countries or by itself is the relevant question. If the existence of a country is defined by how outsiders view it, then Kosovo is part of Serbia (UN Security Council 1244). If a country is defined by the people who actually live there, then Kosovo is a country (Kosovo declaration of independence). It all comes down to whether territorial integrity or self-determination is considered more important, both have been considered to be of paramount importance in international relations. Khajidha (talk) 01:45, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

There is an attempt to use the Coat of Arms of the Republic of Kosovo as the symbol for the entire Kosovo region currently taking place on

"Serbs hold a strong cultural attachment to Kosovo and see it as the cultural heartland of Serbia, here a World War I poster - “Kossovo Day” from 1916 inviting to solidarity with the Serbia's allies." That's bad English. --130.243.148.247 (talk) 13:43, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

http://www.ora-online.ch/index.php/kosova/270-doppelt-so-grosse-unterstuetzung-fuer-kosovo-vor-igh says that about 20 countries will support Kosovo and only half as much will support Serbia in the courtroom. The problem that I wanted to point out is that many users say that Kosovo is not a state and refuse the using of signs of its statehood, for example the country box as it is on top of every country by stating that most countries do not recognize Kosovos independence. It seems they are wrong and they should at least admit now that most countries neither recognize nor not recognize, like New Zealand, for example. Therefore there are more countries that do recognize compared to the countries that do not recognize. --84.56.253.226 (talk) 15:03, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

UN Charter Resolution 1244 clearly states that Kosovo is a part of Serbia. The present goverment of Kosovo is part of the a Provisional Institutions of Self-Government which is outlined in the resulutuion 1244. Also, the EULEX "works under the general framework of United Nations Security Resolution 1244", as found on their site.^[3] My point is that 1244 is 100% in force and with this Kosovo is seen legaly as a province of Serbia by all countrie unless othewise stated. Those countries that did recognise the seperation of Kosovo are in direct violation of 1244 and they do so at the risk of being sued by Serbia. Thus, here on Wikipedia, we need to mention that some countries recogniuse the sepeartion of Kosovo while the majority of the world continue to see Kosovo as legaly a Serbian province. This seems to be reflective of reality and acceptable to Serbs and Albanians.Mike Babic (talk) 15:42, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

These numbers shown us at the ICJ prove exactly what I said from the beginning and disprove your claims as there are more countries in favor of Kosovas independence than against it and most countries are just still indifferent. However, time is on Kosovas side, every day nails Kosova firmer on the maps. --84.56.253.226 (talk) 00:55, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

The UN resolution 1244 do not states, in any part, that Kosovo is part of Serbia — in fact, it states that Kosovo is a part of Yugoslavia (by then, a non-UN member that was not recognized by USA as the sucessor state of Communist Yugoslavia) which would be out of political and military control of Belgrade and with institutions of self-governemnt until a resolution of its political status is defined. And the resolution 1244 was adopted by the

UN General Assembly. So to define that “the majority of the countries of the world recognize Kosovo as part of Serbia” is not very precise to say the least, since many countries could be neutral in relation to the Kosovo’s independence question.--BalkanWalker (talk

) 08:10, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Dieter Bachmann, you live in Switzerland, you have to know that Switzerland itself was not a UN member until recently, so this is not an argument at all when it comes to statehood. And while talking about reality, Kosovo's independence is

fait accompli. --84.56.253.226 (talk

) 11:02, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Just face it, there is more support for Kosovo at the ICJ and resolution 1244 does not rule out independence as it does not states, in any part, that Kosovo is part of serbia, like BalkanWalker wrote. Everything else is nonsense - or serbian nationalistic propaganda denying the reality. --84.56.253.226 (talk) 13:02, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

I am facing it. Things are looking bright for you aren't they. This means that maybe in five years or so, the RoK might get full international recognition. Feel free to come back once this happens. Until then,

dab (𒁳)

15:44, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

This will be short and simple.

Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and Serbia has all legal rights and responsibilities of that dissolved state. 1244 reaffirm the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Serbia and this is a fact. The new agreement, Eulex agreement signed by the government of Kosovo is also under 1244, as cited in my post above. To add, the actual government of Kosovo functions under one of the pillars of the 1244 that calls for Provisional Institutions of Self-Government.Mike Babic (talk

) 16:54, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

If partisan, POV-pushing Albanian and Serb nationalists keep this argument up about whether Kosovo is independent or whether it is not, it will not matter because then it will become an edit war and this article will have to be put in lockdown. Albanian and Serb nationalists should not be trusted as objective observers of the situation. There is only one objective reality, and that is that most Albanians and Serbs ABSOLUTELY HATE EACH OTHER. I posted the sociological studies from the Tito-era on this article that indicate that Albanians and Serbs in Kosovo did not like each other in peacetime and there were few intermarriages or friendships between the two ethnic groups. Albanian nationalists see the Serbs as trying to occupy their land, Serbian nationalists see Kosovo as being occupied by Albanians. The only fact of the matter is that the two sides are completely unreconciliable, most Albanians hate Serbs and most Serbs hate Albanians. Xenophobia between ethnic and religious groups is strong in the Balkans and xenophobic nationalism is commonplace. SO, NO MATTER WHAT HAPPENS AT THE U.N., ALBANIAN NATIONALISTS WILL SAY KOSOVO IS THEIRS AND SERB NATIONALISTS WILL SAY KOSOVO IS THEIRS, THERE IS NO WINNER! If this article is just being used as a blog for such xenophobic Albanian and Serb nationalists to vent their hate of each other, this article should be shut off to all non-administrator users as it was after the declaration of independence by the Kosovo government in 2008. SO LET'S JUST STATE THE FACTS ABOUT THE SITUATION IN KOSOVO, KOSOVO IS A REGION WITH TWO ETHNIC FACTIONS THAT HAVE A LONG HISTORY OF HATRED TOWARDS EACH OTHER. THEY HAVE BOTH COMMITTED WAR CRIMES AGAINST EACH OTHER BECAUSE THEY HATE EACH OTHER, THE END! Every time that I see an Albanian nationalist or Serb nationalist say "this is pro-Serb", "this is pro-Albanian", "this is anti-Serb", or "this is anti-Albanian", I will post the capitalized statement on the situation of Kosovo, because that is the ultimate reality of the situation. Kosovo is a disputed territory just like Kashmir, East Jerusalem, Chechnya, South Ossetia, Somaliland, and the Tamil regions of Sri Lanka. Thus Kosovo is not some special place that defies the laws of gravity (metaphorically speaking of course), it is just like any other disputed land. Multiple factions contest the land and hate each other. The sooner that Albanian and Serb nationalists recognize that their dispute is not unique, perhaps they will be less arrogant in asserting their claims.--R-41 (talk) 02:29, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

That's it. But you can say it much shorter: If there is no consensus in a marriage the consequence is divorce. Such a pity serbs seem not to accept this divorce. But they must, there is no other way. The sooner they accept it, the better for them. --84.56.253.226 (talk) 06:21, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

that's not what R-41 said. Ethnic hatred or a separatist movement do not make for a successful secession. The point is that for the purposes of Wikipedia, we let the real world take care of the real-world problem. We are not part of the solution, we merely report on what is happening. For the time being, we report the territory as disputed because, as this talkpage illustrates so effectively, it happens to be disputed. That's all there is to say about it until there is some major development out there in the real world. --

dab (𒁳)

12:34, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

It seems you missed to realize that the divorce already happend, like many serbs. And guess what? Some will never realize. They lost contact with reality, like you did. ;) --84.56.253.226 (talk) 12:57, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

Indeed. Now, if there is anything you want to say regrading the improvement of this article within

dab (𒁳)

15:31, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

Indeed, there is something I want to point out in the article, it is written: "On the other hand, the proclamation of independence is not recognised by the majority of UN countries" and I showed that this is just not true, see the sayings of New Zealands Prime Minister about neither recognizing nor not recognizing and about the numbers at the ICJ which are proving his sayings. How often do I have to repeat that and how long will you continue to deny the reality? --Tubesship (talk) 15:57, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

Ah, so the anon is not anonymous after all. Tubesship, you should be well-aware that

sock puppetry is a serious breach of policy. Stop editing as an IP if you do not want to get yourself blocked. — Emil J.

09:52, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Would you like show me where it is written that one is obliged to log in instead of trying to intimidate others, please? <°((((< --84.56.253.226 (talk) 12:58, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

You use the IP mostly for inflammatory POV-pushing on talk pages of various Kosovo-related articles. That falls under

links between the accounts in most cases to make it easy to determine that one individual shares them and to avoid any appearance or suspicion of sockpuppetry, and you did not do that. — Emil J.

15:59, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

My IP is an IP and not an alternative account. Stop arguing with me and stay on topic. You use this as a distraction from the discussion. The discussion is about Kosova and the fact that not announcing a recognition does not mean an opposition towards recognition as I have shown with the numbers at the ICJ. --84.56.253.226 (talk) 16:15, 28 April 2009 (UTC) BTW: The main reason not to log in is to avoid others vandalizing my personal talk page as this happend in the past, but that it off topic, so let us stay focused.

The policy applies whenever you use two or more different identities, it does not matter whether it is a real account or only an IP address. You can see for yourself how many of the socks reported on

WP:SPI are IPs. There are efficient ways of dealing with vandalism on your talk page, or any other page for that matter, see WP:Vandalism. — Emil J.

17:19, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Dieter Bachmann, we live in a free world where neither Russia nor China can act like dictators over the world. They might be dictatorships at home but not when it comes to the globe, even if you may find this pity. You may try to create a dictatorship in your country if you like, but do not advocate it here on Wikipedia, please. --84.56.253.226 (talk) 13:07, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

We live in a world where the nuclear powers, i.e. the permanent members in the UN security council, call the shots on any geopolitical question. That is, you get your independent Kosovo as soon as the US, Russia, China and a bunch of Europeans agree that this is the way it's going to be. I am sorry to shatter your delusions about the "free" world where any happy-go-lucky party of irredentists can go and declare themselves independent and live happily ever after, I do not endorse or "advocate" this as the way it should be, but this happens to be the world where "we live". You may consider the Russians or the Chinese, or even the US, check as applicable, evil buggers, but that doesn't change anything. Now if there is anything you want to discuss that pertains to this article, bring it up already. --

In response to the one anonymous user's claim that Kosovo's independence was like a divorce in saying: "If there is no consensus in a marriage the consequence is divorce", my response is that even a divorce in most societies requires a legal division of assets and decision of responsibility over children between the two parties. As of yet, Kosovo is in dispute because the division of assets has not been accepted and the metaphorical divorce paper and decision of responsibility over the Serb population (like the issue of responsibility over children in a divorce) has not been agreed to by Serbia. I am not attempting to promote Serbia's case, but I am saying that Kosovo's separation is indeed like a divorce, but there is a dispute over Kosovo's seizure of the assets and population claimed by Serbia (i.e. Kosovo Polje, Serbian Orthodox monastaries, the Serb population and the territories they reside in), that is why it is a disputed separation. The fact that both Albanian and Serb nationalists don't respect each others' respective claims is why the dispute exists. On Wikipedia we are only to report what is fact, WE HAVE NO RESPONSIBILITY TO MAKE JUDGEMENTS IN THE ARTICLE ON THE COUNTRIES THAT SUPPORT OR OPPOSE KOSOVO'S INDEPENDENCE, WE CAN ONLY SAY THAT THEY DO OR DO NOT! SO IT IS NONE OF OUR BUSINESS TO JUDGE THEM. IF SOMEONE WANTS TO JUDGE THESE COUNTRIES, GO AND TALK ON SOME BLOG OUTSIDE OF WIKIPEDIA ABOUT IT, BUT DON'T TAKE UP SPACE ON AN ENCYCLOPEDIA ABOUT IT! If fair was fair in my mind, Kosovo would be independent but Serbia would get a partition of Serb-populated Mitrovica and Kosovo Polje linked to Serbia with a roadway that would officially connect it to Serbia like Goražde is to the Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina, it's too bad that most Albanian and Serb nationalists are too stubborn and arrogant to take an idea like this into consideration, "c'est la vie" (French: "that is life").--R-41 (talk) 01:45, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

R-41, I do not know how much you know about Kosovas history, but maybe you do not know that Kosova already gave up, or should I better say had to give up most of its territory. Do you know that

Kosovo Vilayet. Should Kosovo ask for reconciliation as it lost so much territory? I don't think so, neither should serbia. And no, Bosnia is not a role model, you know that it does not work well as it is a crippled state in which the entities are blocking each other. No, the Kosovars do not want anything from serbia and serbia should not want anything from Kosova. Revenge was never healthy. --84.56.253.226 (talk

) 02:54, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

R-41 I hate the admins-only-edit idea. It's not what Wikipedia is about and it seems like this article is not being vandalized at all. On the other hand, your divorce analogy explaines a complex issue in simple terms, and i want to praise that by saying good job. Kosovos "republic or provincial status"classification is complex since there are two sides (pro-anti seperation) that have equal reputable states supporting thier views. Kosovo is best classified currently as a DISPUTED REGION. I urge people to reflect reality in this article. Also, sensitive issues without solid supporting (issues that are hard to understand and are twisted by the two opposing sides, Albaniand and Serb, respectivly ) need not be added, or their prominance in the article should be kept in check by the admins.Mike Babic (talk) 03:16, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

the divorce metaphor is a good one, but this isn't about Kosovo the territory divorcing form Central Serbia the territory, it is Serbia's ethnic Albanians divorcing Serbia's ethnic Serbs. And it is one ugly divorce. Now Kosovo the territory in this simile represents the divorcing couple's kids, or wealth. The Kosovo question is, then, who gets to keep what. Does the beaten wife walk away with all the money? Is the property shared equally? Or according to some key (you keep southern Kosovo, we keep northern Kosovo; you get 90% of the territory, we retain 10%)? In a divorce, these things are decided by a court of law. A divorce doesn't work like "I hate you, I'm leaving you, oh and I'm keeping all your money", but most of our Albanian editors seem to think that this is exactly how it works. Now of course the metaphor breaks down because there is no universally accepted court of law. The closest thing the world has is the UN, and it is precisely for this reason that Wikipedia will begin treating the Republic of Kosovo on equal footing with any other independent state from the exact moment as there is a UN resolution doing the same: not before, and not any later than this. Counting individual countries recognizing or not recognizing is like polling the couple's friends to see whether the husband or the wife is to blame. So what if the wife has more friends saying the husband is a bastard, or vice versa? It is still the court of law that has the final word on who walks away with the kids and the money. If (if!) the ICJ endorses the secession, this may be a first step (first step!) in a process towards a UN resolution recognizing the RoK. Please. This will take time. Wikipedia will list Kosovo as a disputed territory as long as things are up in the air, Albanian protests notwithstanding, and it will treat the RoK as an independent country on equal footing with

Thank you for your compliment about my metaphor. And no, I do not think that any side owns anything to the other side. See what I wrote about the huge loss of territory of

Kosova Vilayet. The same goes to Germany as they lost their eastern parts to Poland, Königsberg even to russia. But revisionism is never the way to a peaceful future. We do not ask for reconciliation, nor should the serbian side dare to ask anything from the Kosovars. Just let the wounds heal. You know, time is a healer. If divorce is accepted. Unconditionally. --Tubesship (talk

) 16:04, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

I agree with User:dab. NPOV policy is essential and we have no right on Wikipedia to declare who deserves anything. I see hypocrisy in the one nationalistic statement made by the anon user who said "the Kosovars do not want anything from serbia and serbia should not want anything from Kosova. Revenge was never healthy." But it is the Albanian nationalists' intention to get revenge on the Serbian government by separating, as are the actions of most nationalists. Why? Because if their goal was not revenge they would have cooperated to sooth relations between Albanians and Serbs to deliver constructive justice, no matter what the denials by the Serbian government and Serb nationalists, because they would have the moral high ground to not incite further revenge by alienating Serbs in Kosovo. But that was not and never has been the goal of most Albanian nationalists, just as reconciliation has never been the goal of most Serb nationalists. Nationalism is about separation, segregation, and assimilation - even in the most noblest of causes, this causes dissent amongst those who do not want to assimilate or those who do not want to be segregated from another group of people, this is why nationalism commonly leads to war. Like I said, even the most benevolent nationalists like

Romeo Dallaire says it happened because people were so distracted by the Balkans wars and by racist views of black Rwandans being less worthy of help than white ex-Yugoslavians. Dallaire is correct, the Rwandan Genocide could have been stopped if the wars in the former Yugoslavia had not erupted over petty differences and opportunism of nationalist political leaders in the former Yugoslavia. So I say that the arrogant and bigoted Balkans nationalists of any faction deserve no respect, only the victims and the families of the victims of those who actually suffered in the Balkans wars do deserve respect.--R-41 (talk

) 02:25, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

You mentioned Mahatma Gandhi and indeed we had our Gandhi called Rugova. We tried everything to reach peacefully an agreement to overcome the apartheid, we tried it for many years without violence and only as a last resort Kosovars began to fight. This fight was for freedom and NATO helped us to free Kosova. What you try is revisionism as it is now a decade that Kosova was freed, so it's time to get over it, you won't turn the clock back. And never say again, we did not try it peacefully at first. --Tubesship (talk) 03:30, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

I'm going to say one thing, since this is not a disscusion blog about poltics. Majority of Serbs hated Milosevic, for exaple see

the protests in Serbia in 1996-1997 BEFORE the Kosovo War. Milosevicess key secret police advisor during the Kosovo war, Jovica Stanisic, was a CIA AGENT as this link will prove. ^[4]. My point. I studied how the world works and i figured most of events in the Balkans and why they happened. Serbs are not to blame, so dont use wikipedia to attack a nation of people. Kosovo is a disputed region and should be treated as such. Also, please take a look at my evidence which is numerous, and remember when editing that the CIA was calling the shots in the ex-Yugoslavia and not the Serbian people who had little or no control in the political matter.Mike Babic (talk

) 08:10, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

To Tubeship, I said that nationalism AS AN IDEOLOGY LEADS to violence because it involves separation, segregation, and assimilation of human beings into artificial factions and some people who do not identify with such factions do not want to be part of them, the solution then is partition or war. Nationalists MAY initially be peaceful but their ideology can never bring social justice for humanity. India's nationalism began as peaceful and now it is violent against Pakistan just as Pakistani nationalism initially tried to be peaceful and indeed initially got a peaceful partition from India, but there was a dispute over Kashmir. Even Germany's nationalism began as a liberal nationalism meant to respect human rights, but as everyone knows it mutated into a genocidal regime led by the Nazis. And in the words of a notable refugee from Nazi-run Germany, Albert Einstein, "Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind." By the way Tubeship, your use of the word "we", who does that refer to, "we" mean every Kosovar, does it mean every Albanian Kosovar, does it mean every human. Did every Kosovar, Albanian Kosovar, or every human "try it peacefully" at first? How can you assume such things? Besides Albanian and Serb Kosovars hated each other for decades, it is a documented fact in Tito-era studies acknowledged by the United Nations, ever since Albania became independent, Albanians and Serbs have quarreled over Kosovo. And as I so admire Gandhi I say that his refusal to support any act of violence in response to violence is notable. It is unfortunate that Kosovo's Gandhi, Rugova could not work things out, and I admire him for trying, but like Gandhi, one good person cannot truly control nationalism, nationalism ends up controlling society and the leaders must harness what already exists. In my country in 1995, Canadians and Quebeckers witnessed in a referendum on independence for Quebec the Quebec nationalists beginning the campaign saying that an independent Quebec would be inclusive, but when people like Aboriginals and English Canadians did not want to be part of an independent Quebec the campaign turned ugly. At the end, the Quebec nationalist leader, Jacques Parizeau, who had claimed at the beginning of the campaign that Quebec would be inclusive, blamed the defeat of the independence "yes" side on "money and the ethnic vote" and promised that French Quebeckers would eventually have their "revenge" on Canada. That was a change in a few MONTHS! So, inclusive nationalism commonly degenerates to exclusive nationalism, because the only truly inclusive nation is humankind. Also it is NEVER TIME to get over and forget mistakes, it is only time to acknowledge them, and find peaceful means to ensure that they do not happen again and get over old hatreds.--R-41 (talk) 11:52, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

I will get back on focus, but here are some quotes for some nationalists to remember:

"To him in whom love dwells, the whole world is but one family."

Buddha

.

"Patriotism is when love of your own people comes first; nationalism, when hate for people other than your own comes first." Charles de Gaulle, leader of the Free French forces in World War II.

"Borders are scratched across the hearts of men

By strangers with a calm, judicial pen,

And when the borders bleed we watch with dread

The lines of ink across the map turn red." Marya Mannes

"Patriotism is a kind of religion; it is the egg from which wars are hatched." Guy de Maupassant.

"It is not for him to pride himself who loveth his own country, but rather for him who loveth the whole world. The earth is but one country and mankind its citizens."

Bahá'í Faith.--R-41 (talk

) 12:26, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

R-41, I see that and why you as a Canadian are biased when it comes to Kosova as you link its case to the referendum on independence for Quebec. Anything else than this bias cannot explain your far-fetched implication of Kosovas struggle to overcome apartheid with nationalism a la Nazi Germany. You say: “Also it is NEVER TIME to get over and forget mistakes, it is only time to acknowledge them, and find peaceful means to ensure that they do not happen again and get over old hatreds”, but would you dare to say this to the Holocaust survivors, too? Get your facts straight, there was a good reason why serbs were bombed out of Kosova by NATO. So dear R-41, stop equating victims and perpetrators and to Babic: Stop your conspiracy theory about the CIA, they were not responsible for the apartheid regime in Kosova but serbs were. --Tubesship (talk) 12:42, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Yes there are "good reasons" why Serbs were bombed. Two words come to mind, Camp Bondsteel and Kosovo mineral deposits. BTW, this should be added to the article. This is the citation, dare I ask someone who claims to be free from bias to enter this into the article. I would greatly appreciate the effort since I'm not sure that I could add it without being biased a little since I'm a citizen of Serbia. http://www.focus-fen.net/index.php?id=l8437&PHPSESSID=83ni8uleaj70borm6b1ivh3nq4Mike Babic (talk) 18:06, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Tubesship stop saying "dare to say" to me. I am free to say whatever I want, I dare to challenge ignorance and ignorant views. As for your question for Holocaust survivors, I say a Holocaust survivor has the right to hate Nazism for its maniacal genocidal nationalism, racism, and totalitarianism. For those reasons I too spit on the Nazis' beliefs. But NO ONE, and yes, not even a holocaust survivor should promote hatred or revenge against Germans or Germany as a nation. I understand that they should be furious at what happened, but nationalist revenge against all Germans is not the solution because not all Germans supported the Holocaust and many Jews were Germans themselves. I say punish the true criminals, the ones' who did the killings and the beatings, not an entire group of people to whom a smaller group was associated. If you hate the Socialist Party of Serbia because of Slobodan Milosevic's actions and the party's policies and want people from that party punished for what they did, I would stand alongside you. NATO had the right to attack Serb military aggressors who were attacking and killing Albanian civilians. The UN mandate over Kosovo was the only viable solution to prevent the violence from continuing, and I think that the mandate should have been in place longer before any decision on independence was made, to let tensions sooth and allow a rational solution to the problems be discussed (such as a partitioned Kosovo as I mentioned earlier). Milosevic was a tyrant who needed to be stopped as well as the Serb ultranationalists. But if you want Serbia as a nation to pay for what you seem to claim all of Serbs supported, I stand against you. Tubesship, you made a prejudicial assumption that because I am a Canadian I cannot possibly understand what the war is like. Already I can see the segregated view of the world that you see. I knew an Albanian from Kosovo who told me of the horrors of the terrorism perpetrated by Serb nationalist paramilitaries in his village. They ordered everyone to leave their house in five minutes, or they and their house would be torched and burned town with them in it. That is horrible, so don't tell me that I am an ignorant fool, I learned of it through what an Albanian told me. But why then do you have superior judgement? Did you witness the war crimes in person yourself? If you did witness them yourself, I would respect your anger for being legitimately caused by personal grief, and for that I would be sorry for you. But if you did not, then you are just like me, a person who listened to someone else describing it. I do not speak for all Canadians on everything just as you cannot speak for all Kosovars or all Albanian Kosovars. Remember that the Kosovo Serbs are officially Kosovar citizens, you cannot ignore their wishes unless you wish for a segregated society.--R-41 (talk) 19:00, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

R-41 So you write you would dare to say: “Also it is NEVER TIME to get over and forget mistakes, it is only time to acknowledge them, and find peaceful means to ensure that they do not happen again and get over old hatreds” to a Holocaust survivor?! Ok, I invite you to come with me, I know an old Jew who lost his whole family in Auschwitz. DARE to tell him that and look how you would feel by doing so. I don't think you could do as I think you are a humane person. --Tubesship (talk) 20:34, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

I think that destruction of Serbian churches should be added to the article since it's clearly a significant event and the fact that it's not in the artivle highlights that the article is pro-Albanian.Mike Babic (talk) 04:39, 1 May 2009 (UTC) (Ctrl-click)">http://www.emperors-clothes.com/churchpics/list.htmMike Babic (talk) 04:39, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

First of all, I do not think the site “The Emperor’s New Clothes” (last update on December 22, 2008) should be considered a mainstream, scholarly or NPOV site. And second, it should be noted that a great part of the Orthodox churches describe on “Jared Israel”’s list are reconstructions made after the death of Josip Tito, and mainly during the Serb nationalist Milosevic’s (1988-2000) era. --BalkanWalker (talk) 03:39, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

guys, this section has long left anything resembling