Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 March 7

• Propose renaming Category:Greece in the Roman era to
  Category:Greece in the Roman period
  Category:Greece in the Roman Empire
  Category:Greece under Roman rule (Feb 20)

• 146 BCE Greece conquered by Rome, Roman period in Greece begins.
• 31-30 BCE
  Hellenistic era
  ends, Roman era begins.
• 27-2 BCE Roman Empire begins. 27 BCE is the year of first Roman Emperor, but the constitution was not finished until 2 BCE. Note that the Roman Empire is slightly later than the Roman era. This distinction is often lost in categorization.

• Marcocapelle, the latter is not my understanding. This is not cut and dried. Specifically, Hellenistic philosophy in Greece continues long after 146 BCE. Cicero (106-43 BCE) belonged to the hellenistic school of Academic skepticism, and translated from Greek to Latin. De Natura Deorum in 45 BCE is classified as hellenistic, as it discusses schools of hellenistic philosophy. Asclepius was written sometime between 100 CE and 300 CE, still considered hellenistic because the original was in Greek. That is why we should not be categorizing places by eras. Better to classify by governments that have distinct beginnings and endings.
  William Allen Simpson (talk) 16:42, 19 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• The latter makes sense for sure. The article Hellenism mentions no less than five (very different) possible endings of Hellenism. Marcocapelle (talk) 18:31, 19 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Also, the article for the Roman era is called Ancient Rome. Perhaps that should be what we use throughout? - jc37 19:20, 19 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• No
  Roman era (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) redirect should point to Roman Empire. Roman era has never meant Roman Republic or earlier. But we have been upmerging all the small categories to "Ancient Roman" prefixes, or "in ancient Rome" suffixes as appropriate.
  William Allen Simpson (talk) 22:46, 19 February 2023 (UTC)[reply
  ]

• Then "Roman era" should be replaced with "X during the Roman Empire". I agree with Marcocapelle, period is just about as bad (as indefinite) as era. - jc37 03:57, 20 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Then, where should it be merged? Greece in the Roman era is almost identical to Greece in the Roman Empire (see dates above), and does not include the Roman Republic, so these articles should not have any relation to the Republic. The "Roman era" does not start any earlier in Greece. It always starts exactly in 30 BCE. This is a 19th century concept, taught in history and Classics departments worldwide.
  William Allen Simpson (talk) 07:47, 20 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Jc37 and Marcocapelle: Considering overnight, I've thought of two more possibilties similar to existing category names: "in the Roman era (146 BCE)" or "under Roman rule".
William Allen Simpson (talk) 14:03, 20 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• I wouldn't have an objection to "under Roman rule" (but I also have no objection to "in the Roman period" or "in the Roman era" without year). Marcocapelle (talk) 18:36, 20 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@

WP:CAT#V Categorization of articles must be verifiable. It should be clear from verifiable information in the article why it was placed in each of its categories.
William Allen Simpson (talk) 13:54, 20 February 2023 (UTC)[reply

]

It's "artificial" because it wouldn't be there naturally—a natural interpretation of "Greece in the Roman era" is that it includes Greece under Roman dominion, irrespective of who was ruling Rome. You're making a distinction that makes little sense, and which will continue to confound both readers and editors who aren't aware of the gloss you're putting on ordinary English. P Aculeius (talk) 16:28, 20 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Fair enough. Sort of C2C but applied higher up in the hierarchy. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:13, 27 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkltalk 18:58, 27 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Presumably, any time that any part of Greece came under Roman rule, beyond Roman era and Roman Empire. Are there parts that never came under Roman rule?
  William Allen Simpson (talk) 02:25, 1 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• No part of the modern state of Greece escaped Roman rule. Just to be clear, the scope of this tree structure is "Modern state Foo under Roman rule". Yes? Even if only a remote corner of the state was ruled, as is the case with Ukraine? Yes? Laurel Lodged (talk) 11:34, 1 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Trying to discuss the knotty problem at hand. As you can see, several choices have been rejected. We haven't even mentioned whether this is the modern state of Greece, or just the Roman protectorate, or Achaia (Roman province).
  William Allen Simpson (talk) 18:37, 1 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Then let's start at the beginning. We cannot come to a view on this until it's scope is defined. Perhaps withdraw the nomination until that is agreed? Laurel Lodged (talk) 23:20, 1 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Nope, sorry, tired of sweeping nominations that go nowhere.

1. The scope is Ancient Greece, the search is for clear concise wording that describes the correct content without having a head note. Tools don't show them.
2. As already documented, "Roman era" doesn't work because editors don't have a Classics education.
3. "Roman period" would follow current "Hellenistic period" naming elsewhere, but our resident foreign language experts say "period is just about as bad (as indefinite) as era."
4. "Roman Empire" would be clearer, but Ancient Greece was conquered under the Roman Republic.
5. "Roman rule" matches other parts of the tree: under Habsburg rule, under Qing rule, under Japanese rule, under Republic of China rule, under Italian rule, under Muslim rule, etc.

A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds. Trying to be consistent, but not foolish.
William Allen Simpson (talk) 02:42, 2 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Yes - I thought that that was the case. But William seems to be equivocal about that point. We need certainty on this point. If it really is "by modern state", then why does the Greek Category contain Asia (Roman province) since no part of Asia was in the modern state of Greece? Is selective pruning needed? Laurel Lodged (talk) 08:09, 2 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• I purged that article. Marcocapelle (talk) 11:45, 2 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• I've also purged Diocese of Asia. Laurel Lodged (talk) 12:10, 2 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• You may be wrong about that one. Much of both ancient and modern Greece is included.
  William Allen Simpson (talk) 12:28, 2 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Yes. All Rhodes lead to Greece. Would including it in the category do more damage than good for the non-expert reader? Laurel Lodged (talk) 12:32, 2 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• @William Allen Simpson and Marcocapelle: If you're going by Greek Antiquity instead of modern state, then why does the first line of the lead of the eponymous article state "Greece in the Roman era describes the Roman conquest of Greece"? Since Greece did not exist in Greek Antiquity, then how could the Romans conquer it? Neither the modern state of Greece nor any other state of that name existed in Greek Antiquity. Furthermore, I disagree that this is a nomenclature issue; it's a scope issue. Laurel Lodged (talk) 12:20, 2 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Read the second half of that sentence: as well as the period of
  Greek history when Greece was dominated first by the Roman Republic and then by the Roman Empire. Linked History of Greece hatnote: This article covers the Greek civilization as a whole. For the history of the modern nation state, see History of modern Greece.
  William Allen Simpson (talk) 12:36, 2 March 2023 (UTC)[reply
  ]

• Finally we get to the nub of the problem. If, as you contend, that this article covers the Greek civilization as a whole, then the category would have to include conquests in Magna Graecia, Alexandria, Crimea, Marseilles and swathes of Anatolia. What an appaling vista. Laurel Lodged (talk) 12:40, 2 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Just a reminder that this is part of Category:Roman history of modern countries and territories. Marcocapelle (talk) 17:04, 2 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• @Laurel Lodged and Marcocapelle: It is currently both. Are you arguing this needs to be split into 2 categories with separate parallel parentage? I've been treating it as a joinder of its parent categories (as we do most category parentage), according to the usual class inheritance in computer science. (As you may remember, I was a developer at the time of adding categories to the software, so that's my technical way of thinking about them.)
  William Allen Simpson (talk) 18:11, 2 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• I do not think the concept of a Greek civilization within a very small region of the Roman Republic/Roman Empire makes a lot of sense. It was a Greco-Roman civilization throughout the entire Roman Republic/Roman Empire. Marcocapelle (talk) 18:42, 2 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• I disagree that it is currently both. The intent is "by modern country" alone. If there are hatnotes or other things in the category scope definition that say otherwise, then they should be removed and replaced with wording that makes the intention clearer. Laurel Lodged (talk) 10:38, 3 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Scholars generally use "Greece in the Roman period/era" or "Roman Greece" to mean Mainland Greece in the period from 146 BC onwards (e.g. Alcock, Susan E. Graecia Capta. The Landscapes of Roman Greece, 1993, which is probably still the most important book on the topic) but even in Greece that doesn't make sense everywhere (e.g., Geagan, Daniel J. ‘Roman Athens: Some Aspects of Life and Culture I. 86 B.C. – A.D. 267’,. Aufstieg und Niedergang der Römischen Welt 2.7.1 (1979): 371–437 - and those are definitely the usual dates for "Roman Athens").
• When someone is talking about Greece and wants to specify the period after 30 BC, they sometimes say "Imperial" or "under the Roman Empire" (e.g. Rizakēs, A. D. ‘Town and Country in Early Imperial Greece’. In Recent Developments in the Long-Term Archaeology of Greece, edited by J. Bintliff, 241–67, 2014.). From the perspective of mainland Greece, 30 BC is a massive watershed (as established most recently in Spawforth, Antony. Greece and the Augustan Cultural Revolution. 2012.) and it would be perfectly valid for us to categorise the two periods separately, or have subcats for each, but Greece is in some sense "Roman" both before and after, so it wouldn't be valid to purge the earlier period from a "Roman Greece" category tree altogether.

• Thank you Furius for the citations. The problem is that categories cannot have annotations. So fuzziness or "natural language" are not allowed. Unlike history, categories must be neat and tidy.
  1. To recap, this was renamed from Category:Roman Greece (with redirect) after discussion at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2018 September 9#Roman era categories in modern countries, nominated by Laurel Lodged. But this category and related categories are/were full of stuff not from "Roman era" and not from "modern Greece". As several of us have noted recently in several different CfD, it has become a mess.
  2. The primary parents are Category:History of Greek Antiquity by period and Category:Greco-Roman relations in classical antiquity. Therefore, I'd nominated "period" to match. To that last point, "Greeks everywhere" and "Greco-Roman" should not be named "Greece" as it is here. Therefore, this category must be split. Easy enough.
  3. Another of the parents is Category:Roman history of modern countries and territories. That seems a valid parent for Category:Greece under Roman rule. That eliminates the fuzziness between Hellenistic era/period and Roman era/period.
  4. Agreed that Roman Empire made a huge difference, and there are some scholars who concentrate on that period. But current articles are merged, often Roman Republic and Roman Empire and Byzantine Empire all in one. Until there are enough separate articles, we should avoid a "Roman Empire" suffix subcategory here. Several recent CfD have upmerged Roman Empire into Ancient Roman for lack of articles and/or clarity.

William Allen Simpson (talk) 05:12, 3 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Re #2, in terms of geography everything in this category is about the territory that constitutes modern Greece. So I am not sure what kind of split you are after. At best we may have a category for Greek speaking Roman people, but as the Greek language was widespread in the east this is barely a defining characteristic and largely coincides with region. And it would not be a split, it would just be the creation of a new category. Marcocapelle (talk) 08:04, 3 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Re #1 Marco and I have already removed some articles from this category that were incorrectly categorised (see above). I'm not aware of any other miscategorisations is sister country categories. I personally populated many of those categories. But if you see that stuff not from "Roman era" and not from "modern Greece" of present, please feel free to fix the problem. So that's a problem with categorisation errors, not with the nature of the scope of the category itself. Laurel Lodged (talk) 10:33, 3 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkltalk 18:15, 7 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]